Orthodox Jews, along with various sects within Islam ironically enough, call for women to cover themselves in public.
In a fascinating oped today Dov Linzer, an Orthodox rabbi and dean of Yeshivat Chovevei Torah Rabbinical School in the Riverdale section of the Bronx, calls into question whether the male appetite for sex should be the responsibility of men or women under the strictest interpretation foundational Jewish scripture.
By saying that all women must hide their bodies, they are saying that every woman is an object who can stir a man’s sexual thoughts. Thus, every woman who passes their field of vision is sized up on the basis of how much of her body is covered. She is not seen as a complete person, only as a potential inducement to sin.
Of course, once you judge a female human being only through a man’s sexualized imagination, you can turn even a modest 8-year-old girl into a seductress and a prostitute.
Linzer comes down hard on the side of men taking responsibility for their own actions rather than enforcing the segregation of genders on buses and dress code currently being hotly debated in Israel.
The Talmud tells the religious man, in effect: If you have a problem, you deal with it. It is the male gaze — the way men look at women — that needs to be desexualized, not women in public. The power to make sure men don’t see women as objects of sexual gratification lies within men’s — and only men’s — control.
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I wonder what the rabbi would have to say about overt sexualization of our girls in America, from Lady Gaga to Kristen Stewart? If men forcing women to cover up to compensate for male sexual desire what about a culture in which underage girls so often appear in pornography?
I am assuming that Linzer would point out, again, that is up to men to deal with their own sexuality and not objectify women.
What do you think?
Image: Jezebel
I think it’s repression that causes the objectification of women, so I couldn’t agree less. In a generally erotic culture, the so-called erotic “gaze” becomes general and lighter. As it was in the 1970s for many of us.
The term “gaze” is problematic too. Postmodernists mean this term to mean the imposition of power by looking (power for them is undefined.) Habermas called the postmodernists “the young conservatives,” and it fits. Oh yes, let’s get everyone covered up again. And scared, especially men.
@Craig Williamson Vandenburgh: “In a generally erotic culture, the so-called erotic “gaze” becomes general and lighter.”
Yep. When you go where people are naked (let’s say a nudist beach), at the beginning you feel excited, but after a while it all becomes normal, and you barely notice nudity anymore.
Victorian men were excited by women’s ankles, go figure! 😀
The more the repression, the strongest—and more deviated—the desire. In sexual free cultures, rape is way less or non-existent.
The only solution to the male gaze is men not looking at women. If women can be so offended by male eyes then that is the only complete answer. Now I already know what the response to this will be so don’t bother.
Is that going to happen? Of course not so this will always be a complaint. Why? Because it’s almost completely subjective.
If women could actually understand what was going through a man’s mind during the male gaze, all offense would go away. What would be left would be happiness or pity.
“In reality it does what you point out, limit both sexes based on gender roles” Does it limit or does it free the sexes? This article failed to cover the interesting phenomena as to why very large numbers of often highly educated secular American Jews (male and female) raised in modern non-religious homes are increasingly choosing to embrace Orthodox Judaism. Increasing numbers of people find that modern “egaltarian” gender-neutral society isn’t so wonderful, natural, and fulfilling. Recently, I read an interesting comment written by a woman about another woman who was criticized for her sexualized behavior while pretending to be… Read more »
The ancient Jews were probably the first of the ancient peoples to bottle up the human sexual genie and to attempt keeping it confined to within a monogamous marriage. Overall, many such practices or rules have had a net positive effect and have contributed to the unity of the Jewish people and culture, and thus to our survival. While I think modesty in dress and behavior is good it can be taken to an absurd degree by those at the extreme. A lesson from the Buddha is fitting: walk the middle path. BTW, this piece would could have been improved… Read more »
The temperament of many rabbis is such that they often live in a world of academic theory and do not spend enough time in reality. We are all objects with different meanings to different people often based on the role we are performing at a given time. Humans are a mix of a higher divine nature and a lower animal nature. Both natures are needed to live a productive quality life. Increasingly people recognize that the radfems are idiots with their claims that gender is merely a social construct. Men and women may have much in common yet we are… Read more »
@Aharon: “If men did not have a strong biological response to women found attractive why would and should most men pursue women?”
Quite right. And how many would bother to have and raise children?
Sexual attraction is a smart trick Nature plays on us, to make the species continue. 🙄
It’s a dirty trick… but it works. 😉
@Crescendo63 Women’s endless complaining and whining about mostly trivial issues just seems to go on and on like that energizer bunny except the bunny is cuter and funnier than some of the two-legged cows. Take a couple’s sex life out of the picture for now. What is left that is so magical and wonderful for us men to want to have a relationship with a modern westernized woman? Is it her amazing personality, good values, noble ethics, low maintenance, frugal practical spending and respect for our money, high sense of responsibility and accountability to others, ability to surpass her grandmother’s… Read more »
The Burqa in Afghanistan, The Nijab in Iran, the Shawl in other countries, they all strike me as practical solutions in countries still heavily dependant on gender roles. I don’t think tis any accident that the poorer the country is the more likely it is for this kind of covering up to be considered necessary. Heck, as recently as the 1950s and even the 60s in Ireland it was kindof/sortof expected for respectable women to wear a shawl when leaving the house. It stems from teaching female beauty as a commodity for women to bargain with and men to fight… Read more »
How is it not controlling women, if the women have the more stringent and completely impractical dress code for moving about the world? I realize my view is entirely western here, but the women are the one with the burden of the heavy dress. Wouldn’t it have been interesting though if they allowed the women to dress freely, but made the men wear blinders, as to not be distracted? Or maybe that only would be interesting to me 😉 It always reads as “women have to cover up because men have no control.” And if men have no control (which… Read more »
Actually, among ultra-orthodox Jews, both the man and the woman have to wear equally concealing and restrictive clothing. The title picture shows a Muslim woman, not a Jewish one. In Chasidut, a women generally wears a long dress while keeping her hair covered with either a scarf (not a Muslim wraparound one, one that covers only the hair) or a wig, while a man wears a long black jacket and matching pants with a black top hat to cover his hair. This is what most Chasidim look like: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2296891990_c3e035034b.jpg You’re describing the extreme Muslim dress code in certain Arab countries,… Read more »
“I don’t think tis any accident that the poorer the country is the more likely it is for this kind of covering up to be considered necessary”.
Peter,
Is America such an emotionally wealthy and happy place to live with a sense of social unity?
@Rabbi Linzer: “they are saying that every woman is an object who can stir a man’s sexual thoughts” She is. Not an “object”, but someone who – potentially – stirs desire. It’s the way we are built. It’s Nature. It’s the way life perpetuates itself. We do what we do because we are built to be sexual creatures. It’ something so inherently and fundamentally part of Nature, that making it wrong it’s pathological and a sure sign of neurosis. @Rabbi Linzer: “It is the male gaze — the way men look at women — that needs to be desexualized” Why… Read more »
Some context about the Talmud. It was born from rabbis of the Jewish sect Pharisees (since Pharisees were the only sect to survive the Roman invasion). It was formed during Hellenistic times so you can see about them in the New Testament. I do remember Pharisees had a strict interpretation of the Mosaic law (picking up berries might have been considered “harvesting”), focused on an oral law, and were very traditional. They had much disdain against women, even said it was inappropriate for her husband to walk behind her or talk to her in the market (this was the interpretation… Read more »
If a friend of mine, who is an orthodox rabbi, were to read your comment he would be laughing. However since it is late on a Friday night, he’s probably a bit drunk right now.
I think some rabbis would agree on somethings as well. Let’s not pretend that Orthodox Jews are united in belief
Who is pretending?
The power to make sure men don’t see women as objects of sexual gratification lies within men’s — and only men’s — control.” What is this ‘power’, I wonder. The reality that most men live in – a state of constant sexual repression – is something women can never fully grasp. In my mind the reality is that women (especially feminists) want to control how men perceive them sexually. To this end one tactic used has been to attempt to shame, ridicule and guilt-trip men for their Male Gaze. In effect an aspect of male sexuality is openly pathologized. The… Read more »
I think that women probably have an inkling of what it is like to be in a state of constant sexual repression. It doesn’t look exactly the same as what men experience, but it’s definitely comparable. Girls (from a very young age) are told things like ‘sit like a lady’ (translation: keep your legs crossed), or not to flaunt what they have, to cover up, to be ‘modest.’ And often before they really realize the impact of what it is that they may or may not be doing (example: I was a 32C by the time I was 12, and… Read more »
@ThursdayFae: “men can get away with wearing practically nothing in public and it’s acceptable” Yes and no. In many situations, men are required to dress much more than women: workplace, parties… Usually, if a women wears a top and a miniskirt she is sexy; if a man wears a singlet and shorts, he looks like a dork (unless he’s on a beach). Women’s fancy night dresses are the most revealing. Of course, I’m talking about normal people, not amongst fanatic bigots. 😉 @ThursdayFae: “but it’s the BLAMING women […] for causing lust that is the problem” 100% agree. That is… Read more »
I did not explain myself well. I’m not talking about modes of dress or general behaviours. It is my understanding that men are more visually stimulated than women. This is simply biology. I do not see it as right or wrong, it just is. By pure chance men are more likely to be aroused by the presence of women more often than women will be aroused by men. This aligns with my general experience as a man (which I now consider healthy – for many years I was ashamed of this fact) however I do not presume to speak for… Read more »
I can appreciate biological reactions to seeing something that you find arousing. And I can’t fault anyone his biological reactions, because I’m prone to several myself–uncontrollable, and sometimes embarrassing. But to hold women accountable for causing those reactions, and REQUIRING them to do all they can to prevent those reactions is absurd. Those reactions are the responsibility of the person having them. Just because the sound of an Irish accent makes me ‘ready to go’ (for lack of a more tactful way of wording it), doesn’t mean that I can demand all Irishmen to speak like Englishmen. It’s my own… Read more »
I agree completely (like I say in initial post) But somehow this doesn’t quite mean we can all walk around naked without fear of censure 🙂
No doubt he can speak for himself not anyone else, and what he appears to be saying is, “I think 8 year old girls are sexy. I am a pedophile”. This is not a good sign for someone who presumes to teach others morals.
A man should be strong enough to not fall slavering or scheming or violent at the sight of an uncovered woman. A woman should be strong enough to not do the same as the man. Why do we allow ourselves to be so trivialized by words in a book? The body (male or female, lovely or not, clothed or not) just is flesh, hormones and cells and meat. We should be more than the meat our minds exist in. Men and women both… While it’s true that there is a lot of “over sexualizing” of women and girls, the problem… Read more »
Tom, thanks for cross-referencing that oped from today’s NYT. So, for whatever it is worth, my experience and the experience of every other guy I have ever discussed this with is: men are constantly distracted by sexual thoughts nearly every waking hour of the day. Men cannot help but notice physical beauty in other humans (for ~95% of the male population that would be women, for ~5% of the male population that would be other men; without intending to disrespect bisexuals who really have it rough in the distraction department). I’ve been thinking about how to explain this internal male… Read more »
“And for that we have the goodness of billions of men, exercised every second of every day, to thank.”
Really? Do you think they can extend their ‘goodness’ to stop female rapists?
Every 2 minutes, someone in the U.S. is sexually assaulted.
We are talking about gaze here. What gazing has to do with rape?!?
People look into shopwindows all the time—but this doesn’t make them burglar.
Also suppression of female sexuality is found to be mainly female on female cross cultures, there is another study that found that men and women shamed equally for having multiple partners.
References please.
Here you go Kirsten. “In contemporary society it is widely believed that men are socially rewarded for sexual activity, whereas women are derogated for sexual activity. To determine whether a sexual double standard exists, both undergraduate (n = 144) and Internet (n = 8,080) participants evaluated experimental targets who were described as either male or female and as having a variable number of sexual partners. Targets were more likely to be derogated as the number of sexual partners increased, and this effect held for both male and female targets. These results suggest that, although people do evaluate others as a… Read more »
Which sex do you imagine is the most supportive of and does the female circumcision cutting?
Aharon that’s easy! It’s women that by and large enforce the rite of female circumcision. Surprising as that may be…
This cliche about the sexualisation of girls is so tiresome. Girls come hard-wired with organs that exist purely to provide them with immense sexual pleasure. They (we) just ARE sexual creatures. Girls can have orgasms from what what we, with our myths that children are innocent and that innocence somehow equal to be disinterested in sex, consider a very early age. It’s biology. The COMMERCIALISATION of sexuality is the issue. And the unequal status of women in society, especially women who live under the authority of an organised religion that reinforces the inequalities: Christianity, Judaism,Islam…
The burqa was brought in after a period of hedonism caused societal crash in Islamic culture.
Also suppression of female sexuality is found to be mainly female on female cross cultures, there is another study that found that men and women shamed equally for having multiple partners.
Point being Tom that if you look through the feminist lens, you will not get an accurate view of reality.
The burqa was brought in after a period of hedonism caused societal crash in Islamic culture.
would you have references, or links (i am genuinely interested in reading more about this)
I like that attitude of expecting personal responsibility. Stopping the blame shifting and placing responsbility for one’s thoughts and actions and choices back on the indivual. Hmmm. Sounds rather Utopian, though. One of ‘entitlement’s’ first acts is to find someone else to blame and therefore justify the poor treatment they receive at that entitled person’s hand.
By saying that all women must hide their bodies, they are saying that every woman is an object who can stir a man’s sexual thoughts.
Its also saying that men are not able to control their sexuality and therefore must find other ways to curb it.
True Danny. I think in the end if we conclude that men are not able to control their sexuality (this gets back to the rape culture debate) we have much bigger problems to deal with.
The burqa was instated after a period of hedonism crashed the Islamic culture. I think it would be a mistake to view these things through the feminism rape culture lens.
Agreed, Danny. Part of being an adult is being responsible for your own actions and being able to control those actions. Anyone who cannot, also cannot call him/herself a man or woman as “man” simply means adult male and “woman” adult female. Regrettably, we seem to have more boys and girls than men and women in America.
As a matter of fact, most men control their own actions: they don’t hump any woman they see, just because they feel like it. Fair enough.
But the Rabbi’s discourse was about gaze and desire. If you have to deny your own desires, it’s like you have to lobotomize yourself. WTF.