Joanna Schroeder likes cute guys as much as much as any other red-blood heterosexual woman, but thinks covert photo sites like TubeCrush are deeply problematic.
One of the best thing about subway or train rides in a big city is the people-watching. I love to see who is around me: an octogenarian with a handsomely weathered face, a parent with a toddler on his or her lap reading Pat the Bunny, a young man wearing an outfit so cool and fashion-forward that I truly don’t understand it, a group of giggling teen girls talking about boys, a couple talking intimately or kissing sweetly… And part of what makes the London Underground, Boston’s T and New York City’s subway system so awesome is that everyone rides—from celebrities to the everyday working family.
These three cities are also famous for an excess of attractive men and women, and a group of sites, the most notable being TubeCrush, are taking advantage of the eye candy, calling for people to take covert photos of hot guys and posting them to their site. And while the photos are respectful, with flattering captions, one has to stop and wonder how these guys feel being featured without their permission.
So… how is this legal? I can’t speak for the laws in England, but here in the US (at least where I live), the person who takes the photo owns the rights to it, and can publish it wherever he or she wants, as long as the photo isn’t indecent or of a minor. There are laws against taking photographs into a private residence from outside.
But with the technology available on the average smart phone, getting a photo of someone without them knowing it is incredibly easy, and privacy laws need to catch up with the evolution of technology. The popularity of “revenge porn“—websites devoted to heartbroken men and women posting humiliating photos of their exes—calls up the need for a broader discussion of what’s moral, as well as what should be legal to publish.
Because while the photos of the cute University boy in his tracksuit might make us raise a moral eyebrow, the legal publication of a photograph of a woman on the toilet or a man in his briefs should bring into focus where we’re headed as far as privacy.
♦◊♦
Pushing legality aside, we must think about what we’re saying about the value of men when we publish their photographs for the sole purpose of ogling them. It would be one thing if the guys were volunteering for said photos (who doesn’t enjoy the all-American “Fireman’s Calendar”?), but these fellas are just going about their business. We really have no idea what’s happening in these men’s lives at that moment. You see a handsome fella in a suit and think perhaps he’s coming from a very successful business meeting… but he may be wearing that handsome suit because he’s coming from the funeral of a loved one.
The guy in the smart sweater vest could be having the best day of his life, or maybe he just had his heart stomped on and is feeling worthless and suicidal—and is trying to distract himself by reading that heady novel you think is so sexy. There’s a chance that the guy with the super-defined biceps is returning from a great workout at the gym, but maybe he is also just returning from combat and is struggling with PTSD or depression. I know I’m being overly dramatic, but life is pretty dramatic, and you have no idea what the person next to you has been through.
Some may argue that the internal lives of those photographed shouldn’t matter. I mean, they’re hot, right? And if you’re hot, you should be proud to be photographed… Even on your worst day. Wouldn’t most guys say that being admired by people feels good?
More than a year ago, Cam Martin published an article here on GMP on this very same subject and tackled the issue of the sexual objectification of men:
Let’s be honest, men will never, ever, in a million years have it as bad as women when it comes to sexual objectification. The overwhelming majority of men, I imagine, would be honored (if slightly startled) that a woman had seen fit to take his picture on public transportation and send it into a website for publication. It’s just so outside the usual male experience.
It’s true, men are not used to being sexually objectified. When we talk about men being objectified, we often refer to the objectification of them for their bodies—as soldiers, laborers, and providers. Their success as human beings often hinges not on their beauty and sexual desirability (as it does for women), but upon their earning potential and/or professional success. Men are objectified, but in some very different ways.
I have no doubt that most people would find being listed among “hotties” to be very flattering, as Martin says in his article. I’m trying to imagine how I would feel, as a woman, if I showed up on “LA Subway Hotties” (unlikely, since I haven’t ridden the LA Subway system more than three times, not to mention being in my mid-30s, which in nubile Los Angeles is a bit “long in the tooth”… but let’s just play along). I think I would be flattered for a flash second, but I would also be very disturbed at the notion of someone photographing me without my knowledge. To me, this seems creepy and perhaps even dangerous. The last guy who took non-consensual photos of me ended up with a restraining order and in jail, so I’m not too keen on this…
But if I stood up and said, “This is jacked up!” about a website publicizing my photos, I think most people would understand. Back in 2011, GMP commenter Tamen noted on Cam Martin’s post that the website featuring photos of the hot women of the Occupy Movement received a lot of backlash.
♦◊♦
So why do most people find TubeCrush to be harmless fun?
There are a few elements to this. First, I suspect most people don’t see men as a vulnerable population. You guys are big and strong, right? You’re all good fighters and there’s essentially no risk of you being sexually harassed or assaulted. No men are ever stalked or put in danger by women or admiring men. You guys don’t need privacy. Right?
Oh wait, none of that is true. While the incidence of men being sexually assaulted by a woman who is a stranger is comparably very rare, men are abused, as well as sexually harassed, assaulted, raped and stalked by both women and men.
Second, I think most people assume that men enjoy being sexually objectified, as Martin notes in his article. But is that assumption true? And if it’s true for some, is it morally correct to extrapolate that to any and all men?
Last, while I wish this weren’t true, I fear there is an element of glee that some women and men get from seeing the tables turned and men made into sex objects and eye candy. As I talked about in my piece about the male stripper film Magic Mike, there is a sense that men are finally getting their just objectification desserts after decades (centuries?) of women being the sexual objects and men the objectifiers.
But I cringe at the idea that just because many of us ladies have endured catcalling since we were 12 years old, that you guys should simply suck it up and take a spoonful of your own medicine. I’ve never felt like revenge did anyone any good, and while empathy can certainly be gained from walking in another’s shoes, another cliché is also appropriate: Two wrongs don’t make a right.
I’m curious what all of you think about these issues… Do men “deserve” a bit of their just desserts in the form of sexual objectification?
Is there something inherently less offensive or creepy about covert photos of unassuming men than there is of the same type of photos of women? Why?
What is there to do, realistically, about websites featuring revenge porn or the more innocent, but still non-consensual, covert photos?
(Consensual) photo of man on subway courtesy of Shutterstock
Complicated question. Now I’m going to start this off by saying that I’m pretty much a “men’s rights” kind of guy, and to some extent I think it’s fair to call me an anti-feminist. Which is why I’ve put a lot of thought into this “guys getting some of their own” idea. It’s a pretty common thing to hear when you try to talk about things where men have it bad. (Though I am aware that I might have become a stereotypical oversensitive feminist, only in reverse.) Generally speaking, I condemn this. Not just because two wrongs don’t make a… Read more »
So here’s an interesting thought experiment. Say I’m a talented artist (ha, I wish.) and I’m on the train. I see a good-looking guy across from me, headphones on, reading. I take out my sketchpad and draw a portrait of him, in a realistic style so that you’d be able to recognize him from the drawing. I title my drawing “Hot Guy with Scarf,” scan it in to my computer and post it on a website that’s dedicated to portraits, where others can view and comment. Creepy? Objectifying? Homage? Should I have asked him if he minded me sketching him?… Read more »
Here’s what strikes me as the creepy part-if you had a website dedicated to descriptions of hot people, or photos or drawings of hot people as if you are collecting them. If you had their permission and agreement to be featured as your “hot person of the week” that would be one thing somehow establishing that they get what your project is about, are consenting etc. It’s another if you are collecting images or narratives about people without their permission AND SHARING them to other strangers. The photos are invasive and so quick. Sketching someone would take what 15-45 minutes?… Read more »
Fair points. I agree with you on paparazzi completely. And that’s a good frame to put this in – this really is just amateur paparazzism with non-famous people. I’d never heard of TubeCrush before I read this article, and I do find it a little bizarre. It might occur to me to take a photo of a hot so-and-so for my own viewing pleasure, maybe show a girlfriend or two, but not *publish.* To me, there’s no point in shouting to the general public, “Look how hot this guy is!” (Seriously, if that’s your intention, why snap the photo? Why… Read more »
Ha yes – the difference between craft and banal consumerism – access for all the masses versus a more artsy conspicuous consumption.
And with the craft of romance: “hey baby, yah wanna?” versus the gentle and careful stroking of the ego.
The late Ms. Dworkin said it worst: “Romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks”
I would find both cases equally disturbing, because of the theft of privacy
Great site! And I’m seeing a partial solution to the issue discussed on the cat calling thread – provide all young men with a smartphone. They seem to be more interested in looking at their smartphone than much else
“Last, while I wish this weren’t true, I fear there is an element of glee that some women and men get from seeing the tables turned and men made into sex objects and eye candy.”
Why don’t women ever get even with me by offering me their seat on a crowded bus or train?
When I started weightlifting, it was for functional reasons, to get stronger, to improve as a kick boxer etc. When I started getting bigger, I started liking the way I looked and along with tracking the weight, sets, reps, and exercises I did, I would also measure my muscles and check myself out in the mirror. Yeah, I felt flattered when women admired my body, but only women I wanted to admire my body and only when I was in the mood for it. I never felt flattered when catcalled even though I didn’t feel particularly threatened and felt really… Read more »
I think that ethically it isn’t that great an idea, but whether I want to admit it or not, I would find it entertaining. I think that’s why these sites do so well. If someone did it to me (a 20 something female) I would feel creeped out, but then if my photo was getting positive feedback….would I be able to help but feel a tiny bit flattered? I think the creeped out feeling would win out in the end, but there are people of both genders who would react in those two different ways. I know guys who would… Read more »
I think its creepy to take sneak an unknowing picture of either sex and whether the person you take a picture of finds it flattering or creepy would vary widely regardless of the gender of the person. Personally I have the same feelings about it as the author, I would be flattered at first but creeped out after.
To me the difference is one of power. Look how some discuss these women posting as cute and flattering. Men can’t be objectified in the same way because of this basic definition of women’s actions as cute and less substantial. Men – writ large – make hiring, pay, political decisions about women. Objectification of male bodies will never be tantamount to that of women in our society. I’m actually surprised to hear the argument raised by a GMP editor and woman. ( but photographing people on subways is kinda sketchy)
Well it’s not like it has to be “as bad as what women go through” in order for it to count as bad.
Greg: Do you realize that there are women who make hiring, pay and political decisions as well. You are probably thinking, “Yes, not not as many as men” and you would be correct BUT, think about this, Think of how many men there are in the US and how many make decisions about women (pay etc), that number is extremely small to the point of statistical insignificance.
You are making the classic feminist mistake of look at the few “WHO ARE” and equating it to the whole
I think there might be a problem if generalizing here. It seems like that folks who are all for sights like this are trying to shout down those who don’t by trying to point out how “guys would totally like to have their pictures taken and posted like this”. An argument that I don’t think would be allowed to fly if used towards women. I’m curious what all of you think about these issues… Do men “deserve” a bit of their just desserts in the form of sexual objectification? Well at best the ones that “deserve it” would have to… Read more »
I doubt I’d ever be in one of these sites, but it still bugs me. I know that being outside is automatically public, but really, just leave people alone unless either you know them or they’re committing a crime.
BTW, I chuckled at the clothing descriptions. It’s funny how we identify strangers as “Florida Marlins Cap” or “Cowboy Boots”
Now I’m going to have to find the NYC sites and see if I’ve been photographed. After all, I need to know if I’m good looking, and my history implies that I’m not but maybe, just maybe, I’m too good looking that I intimidate women and I’ll find my face on one of these sites…?
I should clarify that publishing for profit (and websites with advertising on them count as profit) is not legal without photo releases of identifiable subjects.
I believe that if you are photographing someone for publication (and the web counts as publishing), you have to get a signed model release from the subject if they are identifiable. You can take a photo of their shoes or hand or jacket or hair but NOT their face without a signed release. Taking a snap with your camera phone may seem harmless but I doubt it is actually legal depending on what you plan to do with the photo.
In the US, at least, that only goes for commercial use. You can take pictures of anyone you want as long as they’re visible from public areas without special equipment (extra-long lenses are a grey area).
However, you can’t use that photo to advertise products.
I suppose I should point out that I’m not a lawyer. These people, however, are: http://asmp.org/tutorials/property-and-model-releases.html
As a guy, i dont feel objectified at all seeing that site. Instead, i think that site ( Tube Crush ) is super cute. Lol yes, the way the girls talk about how cute a guy, or how hot he is, i dont feel they want to objectified men. I dont think they do that because of revenge, because women always been objectified. For me, they just admire men beauties. And as a guy, thats really flattering. And cute. Well, maybe the way they do it, shoot the photo candidly and upload it it in internet is a litlle creepy.… Read more »
I’m one of those guys who’s tended to be quietly pleased when, as you put it, the tables get turned (and I think I would enjoy if a photo of me reading on the bus ended up on TubeCrush)- but nonetheless I want to thank you for this article because it’s made me think about why I hold that double standard. For me, I don’t think it’s a matter of revenge, so much as, well…being desired, complimented for one’s physicality/sexuality is a delicious feeling…in moderation! The problem about the treatment of women, in my eyes (obviously I can’t speak for… Read more »