Tom Matlack discusses the popular men’s movements and why the Good Men Project stands apart.
The first and only time I saw Robert Bly, author of Iron John, the touchstone of the modern “mythopoetic” men’s movement, I was in college—and I wasn’t sure I was impressed. Although I found the man captivating in many ways, I wasn’t convinced that the manhood he was talking about in poetic terms (and accompanied by a lute, no less) was something I aspired to recapture. Beating drums in the woods never seemed to come naturally to me; to me it sounded more like feminism for guys than the stuff of manhood.
At the time, I was immersed in the sport of rowing—a male bonding experience that had little to do with poetry and a lot to do with the testing of physical limits. I suppose the fistfight I had with my best friend during a training session in a cemetery was related to something Bly was getting at, but it sure wasn’t poetic. It had to do with my questioning my friend’s manhood and his retaliating in kind. We both emerged stronger from the exchange.
Our coach, Will Scoggins, had watched our fight from a distance, grinning. He told me that the process of developing underlying trust as a team involved spilling your guts along the way, even showing raw emotion. He had made clear from the very beginning that this was about rowing, but it was also about growing up and learning, the hard way, how to avoid making excuses. The payoff was that we could use this wisdom in any situation later on in life. To his way of thinking, the fight was a sign of progress—a sign of growing faith in one another.
The fight on a cemetery hill with my rowing buddy summarized the kind of men’s movement that I respected a heck of a lot more than what I heard accompanied by a lute.
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In many ways, the Good Men Project was born not out of the men’s movement—or men’s rights movement, masculism, anti-misandry, or MGTOW (men going their own way)—but out of the brutal facts of our own lives as fathers, husbands, and guys trying to make a living. In fact, I had never even heard of any of these philosophies until I started writing about my own life and publishing the stories of other men. In the process I somehow got myself in the middle of a political issue that to me completely misses the fundamental challenge for men in 2011. There are plenty of ways the law (particularly family law) and popular culture, as represented by the media, have limited men. But we have no one to blame but ourselves. We made the laws. We control the media. We have, in the end, suffered too long in silence. Too many of us have knuckled under and become absentee fathers.
Mothers have more rights than fathers, more women are going to college, and Oprah rules the gender discourse. So what? Do we allow ourselves to be emasculated by feminism, by divorce law, by women who, God forbid, want to break the glass ceiling once and for all? Or do we embrace their successes while developing our own powerful voice for good in the world, most particularly when it comes to be being fathers and husbands? To me, having guys beat drums or set up some grand zero-sum gender war ignores the opportunity—an opportunity that’s right in front of our faces—that we might figure out a way to get out of the cave of our own suffering.
To me this opportunity has always been about the power of completely unfiltered communication between men once they stopped thinking about what they were “supposed” to be saying and started speaking from the heart about their own lives. In fact, it saved my own life. I realized that I could learn a lot more from men—damn good men—with no formal education but a lot more street smarts than I had. No poetry, no gender warfare, no bullshit. Just the truth.
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I was surrounded by 30 other men at a grade school classroom in South Boston, many of whom had been sober barely 30 days. They looked pretty tough, and I imagined I must have been the only one in the room without a gang affiliation. The leader at the front of the room began to speak about his structured approach to sobriety. “You miss a session and you are out,” explained Frank, a blond guy in his 40s. “You are required to do each assignment and come prepared to every meeting.” Frank asked us to stand up and pledge our commitment to this course of action, posing a series of questions to which the group responded in unison, “Yes I will.”
Frank began to tell his story. He’d been to prison for breaking and entering, but now worked as a mechanic for the MBTA. He talked about family members who were dead from overdoses or had been shot in drug deals gone wrong. “I gotta admit to you guys,” he said, “I was driving over here and I stopped at a light in a neighborhood I had no real reason to be in. A couple of hookers who I know better than I’d like to admit from the old days came to my window. The thought crossed my mind. But then I thought of this room full of guys. Always remember that a thought and an action are two different things.”
My initial feeling of not belonging vanished as Frank spoke. He talked with a level of honesty that I’d never heard before—one that made me reconsider my own life. Hearing Frank’s unvarnished story of addiction and the struggle for sobriety was a great relief.
I’d grown tired of listening to men talk about alcoholism as though they were delivering some kind of political stump speech. These were working-class drunks, mostly Irish Catholics, with equally strong doses of blind faith and bad behavior. Many had done time and had experienced lows well below mine. Listening to them talk made me stop feeling sorry for myself in a hurry. I had a penthouse apartment and two healthy children. I had endured a bad marriage, an inferiority complex, and a vicious drinking problem. I had lied to myself and others and had gotten caught cheating, but at least I had a roof over my head and plenty to be grateful for.
To get to the root causes of our alcoholism, Frank asked each of us to get a notebook and start writing. This was the fourth step: to take a fearless moral inventory. Frank handed out pieces of paper with the guidelines, “One for resentments, one for sexual misconduct, one for fears, and one for harms other than sexual. Dig deep. Write it all down. Once you’ve identified the facts, start thinking about how it affected you. What part did you play? I don’t care if some fucker punched you in the face, you had some role in that happening. Write it down.”
Several weeks later, I still hadn’t written a thing. I asked Frank to meet me for a quick dinner before class. We ordered fish and chips at a fry joint on L Street and sat at a scratched Formica booth, with graffiti scrawled across the table. Our food arrived just as I started complaining about my ex. He cut me short. “I thought you told me you cheated on her, Tom.”
“Yeah, so what? She is still being a complete bitch, never giving me an inch, accusing me of being a bad father,” I snapped back.
“Well, what you did was not right, plain and simple.”
“Yeah, but …”
“No fucking buts about it, pal. Let that sink into your fucking brain.”
I thought to myself, Why the hell am I taking advice from an ex-con who was just last week talking about cruising hookers, but pushed that thought away because I trusted that, despite our apparent differences, Frank was the first person willing to tell me the truth. I tried to listen to what he was saying.
“The only way you are going to get over fucking up is to admit that you did. Stop denying it,” Frank continued. “You made a mistake. A big one.”
I realized that the whole point of what we were doing in Frank’s sessions was to actually change behavior, not just talk about it. In the past, not taking full responsibility for the impact of my actions—even if I’d apologized, which I did frequently—got me nowhere. Writing down column after column of times I had committed the same sin, however, made it hard to refute my defects of character. If drinking to excess was insane, this shit was even more self-destructive. It was the reason I drank.
“Maybe you are right,” I admitted. “I can’t seem to get over feeling shitty about being a cheat, which causes me to do all kinds of insanely stupid things to cover up the past. I just keep making the same mistake over again in the present.”
“Bingo!” Frank said. “Let’s go help some sick motherfuckers who have a hell of a lot more to worry about than you do.” With that, Frank got up and paid our bill. We walked over to the classroom. Our group was down to 12 guys; everyone else had decided that drinking was a better option. Not that they hadn’t wanted to be good men at some point, but somewhere along the road they had fallen away—again.
♦◊♦
As a man aspiring to be good, I’ve gotten into a heap of trouble with women. I realize that the current men right’s movement is based on how men get screwed by divorce laws. Like so many other dads, I’ve stood outside my ex-wife’s house after dropping off our kids—Seamus, who was 1 year old, and Kerry, who was 3, when we separated—and cried in agony. I was tempted to spend my time in the years after my divorce railing against the laws and, frankly, the whole female sex. But at the same time, I wanted to find love and believe that I could be a good man to some woman—and to do that I had to rediscover some long-lost innocence that would allow me to shed all the bad behavior insulating me from being hurt again. I had to find the balls that I had lost along the way, and stop being a cheating bastard like so many other men these days.
To do that, I needed to hang out with some good men in a faraway country.
♦◊♦
We need a gender neutral egalitarian movement. This hot headed binary gender argument is the personal being cast as the political. You have to listen in order to be heard. You have to own your own bullshit in order to critique the actions of others.
amen Mark – amen
But I’d like to add that only part of my dismay at not being included in conscription has ever been about being viewed as weak. Just like…okay with men I suppose theoretically the “benefit” is being viewed as strong and the responsibility is being the protector and being disposable. But you only really get the ‘benefit’ if you fit a certain masculine ideal. Otherwise you’re stuck being viewed as somehow less of a man, and yet still expected do perform your responsibility and protect women and children. So for women…theoretically the benefit is being protected and the trade-off is being… Read more »
I agree with you Danny…at least I agree with what I think you’re saying. That both sides (feminists and the mra) seem to be really focused on proving that they have it worse. It’s like Christians and the LGBT community. Christians cry out against LGBT rights saying that it just goes to show that the US is waging a war against religion. And then the LGBT community has a tendency to decry all things Christian in politics, saying that all Christians are waging a war against equal rights. The two don’t need to be mutually exclusive (there are plenty of… Read more »
That’s pretty much it. Sides pitted against each other that have the objective of proving that the other side doesn’t have it so bad and are just out to attack by any means possible (while at the same time of course swearing by all that is holy that their is being treated unfairly).
The difference is that feminist organizations actually use their clout to advocate against men. Like when NOW and 80 other feminist groups created the alliance called WEAVE who’s sole purpose was to grab a slice of the stimulus pie for women. NOW’s pres said: “we are against this stimulus going to burly men”. This statement at a time when 80% of the jobs being lost from the fiscal meltdown being male heavy sectors. This at a time when male unemployment was twice as high for women, and female heavy sectors actually had job growth. The list of advocacy that feminists… Read more »
Well and, ya know, in my analogy I’d argue that the LGBT community really does have it worse than Christians. I could make a list, but seeing as this is tangential to my main point, I’ll refrain. And the list of how Christian groups advocate against the LGBT community is long, and much more deliberate than a lot of the harm feminist groups have done to men. Again, I could make a list, but it’s not the focus. But much like your view of feminist lobbies, Christian lobbies have cash, a large membership, and a heck of a lot of… Read more »
I would agree that gays are certainly more maligned then men. I would also make the same statement for blacks. I think it’s interesting that you mention religion as the main group to oppress gays. Some of the reactions I get from feminits (like TRU) is that their feminism is a belief system. It has no basis upon rationality or evidence. Look at TRU’s off-the-cuffs demonization of MRA’s. While I’m not going to go into why she believes as she does I have argued on boards like ampersands and feministing. Many feminists DEVOUTLY believe that feminism is the “one true… Read more »
Whenever you say “rads” I think of Fallout 3. Totally unrelated, but true. 🙂 Anyway, as we’ve been having this conversation I’ve been thinking…maybe part of the reason the more radical feminists are able to get so much attention is just cuz they’re radical. I mean really, how often do you hear about centrist opinions on anything? Plus, a hell of a lot of the ways in which women are discriminated against (whatever you want to call it) are social, not institutional. This isn’t always the case (I’m talking to you U.S. military), but mostly it’s a social problem not… Read more »
John you said: “The difference is that feminist organizations actually use their clout to advocate against men.” So just one more thing…I think this is another way in which our different perspectives color how we interpret the same facts. To me, it seems more like feminist organizations often end up focusing so heavily on advocating for women, they fail to see or fully understand how their policies will hurt men. I don’t think they’re actively trying to throw men under the bus. But seeing as neither of us are in charge of NOW or any other big feminist organization, we… Read more »
Heather, I’m not talking about feminist groups advocating for women to the neglect of men. I am talking about feminists advocating against MRA advocates when they fight for their rights. The La Musga vs La Musga case is a good example. This case is about a custodial mother who wanted to move 1000’s of miles against the non-cust dad’s wishes. The case climbed various levels. At the California Supreme court level it looked like the Calif SC was going to rule for the dad, because some of the commentary coming out was that the court had a duty to protect… Read more »
This list is just the tip of the iceberg I can remember off the top of my head. The large feminist organizations have positioned themselves as the enemy of men. Also, the fact that F&F is starting to join hands with LBGT groups and other largely feminist groups tells me that things are starting to change. But that change is largely being brought upon by MRA’s and equity feminist groups, not groups like NOW. As it was said in Goonies: “It’s our time now”. It is time for men’s issues to come to the forefront (where and when those issues… Read more »
“NOW is a dinosaur, and hopefully it will find itself kicked out of the feminist movement by egalitarian feminists as things change even more so that the voice of men can be heard. I wonder what women like TRU will do with increasingly smaller and smaller organizations to represent their histrionic vilification of men.” Look this is where we agree. But I think it’s time for people’s issues to come to the forefront. I think it’s time to discuss human rights and do our gosh darnedest to keep gender out of it as much as possible. We need to fix… Read more »
Heather says: “I think it’s time to discuss human rights and do our gosh darnedest to keep gender out of it as much as possible. We need to fix where things have gotten unbalanced, and then leave it.” Again, it seems like we agree with 96% of things, but the 4% is what generates all the discussion. Heather writes: “And I think rail-roading feminism (as a monolithic group) won’t help. We need to be very specific about what type of feminism we are calling BS on.” Agreed. That is why I try to display exactly my beefs with feminism and… Read more »
As for us focusing on the little bits where we disagree – that’s where it gets fun and interesting. It’d be boring if all my discussions here were just me pointing out where we agree. 🙂 But do know that I’m reading what your writing; I’m hearing what you’re saying; I’m picking up what you’re putting down…and so on. 😀 Oh and as for the railroading feminism comment – I should have specified I didn’t think that’s what you were doing. I realize you are specific with your beefs (and your porks and lambs as well). 🙂 I feel ya… Read more »
Okay so for your example, with La Musga, I wasn’t there so obviously I don’t know any of this…but just bear with me… What if the feminist organizations that advocated for the mother to be able to move away from the father were worried about the precedent it would set. What if they were worried that if the father was abusive, the La Musga case could be used to force the mother to stay close to an abusive father? I’m not saying it would have. Hell, I’m not even saying more men are abusive than women. I’m just saying, that… Read more »
However, feminists did try to pass a new bill shelfing the La Musga decision. I’m not necessarily surrendering the argument about the DV groups, I’m just going to table it for now and point out something else. That can’t be seen as anything but that they want fathers parental rights doled out at the mothers whims. As far as I know this new bill (which Glenn Sacks defeated) was not about relationships in which DV was alleged, but ALL divorced relationships. In other words, they wanted to give ALL custodial mothers the right to move the children 1000’s of miles… Read more »
“When confronted with a rules clarification one of my high school friends named Matti would ALWAYS advocate for whatever would advantage him…That’s about what I expect from radical feminism.” Yeah I’m saying I agree. I’m just saying…I think your friend (and radical feminists) are focusing so much on their own interests their ignoring those of the other players (people). But I bet your friend (like radical feminists feminists) wasn’t setting out to screw you over; he was just setting out to benefit himself the most. I totally agree that feminism needs to include men’s rights in their policies. I think… Read more »
As I mentioned, I think the vast majority of rank-and-file feminists are truly good-minded people who want the best possible outcome for all. I think even a lot of rank-and-file feminists who advocate for women want the best for everybody, and probably they advocate for women, because that is what they are being taught will help everybody. I don’t have that much of a problem with rank-and-file feminists. But the women leading the charge are women a heck of a lot smarter than me. They have lots of letters following their names (as in degrees). They DO know the score.… Read more »
Thats a really nice analogy. Kudos.
Big words Tom, but no civil rights movement in history has ever succeeded by ignoring the inentional, systematic, and organized actions of its mortal enemy. Feminism is the enemy of men, boys, and fathers becase feminism has made itself the enemy of men, boys and fathers. Unlike feminism, the MRM is not engaged in a gender war. We are not anti-woman. We are fighting for the basic civil libereties and human rights for men, boys and fathers. If feminists stop their self-serving assault on men, boys and fathers, our two movements can co-exist as respectful adversaries, instead of mortal enemies.… Read more »
Okey pokey…I see where you’re coming from but…(famous last words. lol.) My experience of the MRM on GMP has largely been one where I’ve had to defend myself against an irrational hatred of all feminists. Look, I get it. A lot of feminist policies have resulted in sh!t getting worse for boys and men. There are radical feminists, and feminist organizations out there that preach that all men are oppressors and that only women’s issues matter. It’s not as if the MRM is sitting there with welcome arms and the feminists are ignoring it. Both sides have villinized the other.… Read more »
Heather: As a generalisation, the MRM sees abortion as a men’s rights issue because there are already plenty of feminists lobby groups pushing that abortion is a women’s rights issue only. You don’t get any air time if you support the enemy and the MRM and feminism are enemies at this point in time. Feminists need abortion debate to remain women-only because the flipside, single motherhood, needs wealth transfer from men to single mothers to continue. If the choice of abortion or birth becomes a joint decision between men and women, then the wishes of the man become visible in… Read more »
About the abortion debate: I understand all of that. My point was that both sides shouldn’t be enemies. If feminists would give a bit, and MRAs would give a bit, they could work together to promote legislation that advocated for true equality. “The MRM was not born out of a desire to share the world with feminists but to oppose feminisms harmful effect upon the lives of men.” – Right see, that is a problem, I think. Feminism was born out of a desire to oppose men’s harmful effect on the lives of women. At what has it accomplished? It’s… Read more »
“I understand all of that. My point was that both sides shouldn’t be enemies. If feminists would give a bit, and MRAs would give a bit, they could work together to promote legislation that advocated for true equality. ” It is a very human situation, even if it is logical. Your gang warfare analogy is apt. It isn’t in the interests of feminists to work towards true equality, the government funding that is paid to NGOs to support the disadvantaged women would dry up if it was realised they are not disadvantaged any more. Thus the MRAs need to exist… Read more »
“Now that is a common ground that is interesting, men and women realising they don’t actually need each other except for procreation. It might be the end of marriage but the beginning of something infinitely more fulfilling.” Agreed. I find this possibility intriguing. Though I also think there will need to be a separation of personal and societal when it comes to this. To say, women don’t need men and men don’t need women in their personal lives is accurate. To say that society doesn’t need both is dangerous…because then you get back into more prejudicial mindsets. And yeah, direct… Read more »
Heather says: “I would like it if we didn’t have to go through the whole thing again with the MRM (realizing that men can get along without women, then making laws which reflect men’s needs but ignore women’s, until finally it gets so one sided that women are being left out in the dark on issues that they used to be on top of).” Heather, I don’t think you will ever see the MRM become as corrupt, powerful and bigoted as the large feminist organizations have become. The reason is that helping men doesn’t make for good PR. Therefore, in… Read more »
“Heather, I don’t think you will ever see the MRM become as corrupt, powerful and bigoted as the large feminist organizations have become.” Well as for being bigoted…there are plenty of bigoted MRAs (just as there are plenty of bigoted feminists). As for being as powerful or corrupt, I’m looking at the long game, here. I’m not talking about 10-20 years from now…I’m thinking more like 50 years, or more. So much can change in that time, it’s difficult to know where people will end up. But the traditional – men as head of the household, men having legal control… Read more »
Heather says: “Well as for being bigoted…there are plenty of bigoted MRAs (just as there are plenty of bigoted feminists).” Yes, but A) the bigotry in large feminist orgs start at the very top: the leaders. From what I have seen all of the leaders in large MRA orgs are egalitarian. B) the lone wingnut MRA’s are not so much MRA’s but douches who grab the nearest reed when they’re in the swamp. They latch onto MRA’s simply because it is the best vehicle for spouting their hate speech. These guys are not MRA’s any more than Valerie Solanas is… Read more »
Heather says: “It’s not as if the MRM is sitting there with welcome arms and the feminists are ignoring it. Both sides have villinized the other.” Heather, In counterpoint look at fathers and families. They recently won a custody battle by footing the legal bill for a soldier mom, who’s dad used her deployment to try to rob her of parenting time. F&F also held a shared fundraising event with a LGBT (I hope that’s in the right order) due to their voicing in many media outlets the unfair treatment of lesbian social mothers who typically find themselves in the… Read more »
I think, m’dear John, this is where we’re going to end up having to agree to disagree. As a woman my perspective of the MRM is going to be different from yours, and I’m not challenging your statement that there are MRM groups that do advocate for women. But helping in specific cases where women are getting strung up to dry is a decidedly different thing than inviting feminists to join in the party. I mean, look at the article on GMP about the top 10 issues for men’s rights. Feminism was like number two, or something. I’ve read plenty… Read more »
You know what? I’m starting to think you’re right. This is where we will have to agree to disagree. Summation of my point: Your rights would be in far better hands in MRM, than my rights currently are in the hands of feminists. I have seen very little good coming out of very large, entrenched, clout wielding, politically active feminist groups for men. But, it can be argued that the MRM is simply fighting for equality (they’re not fighting for millions of dads to win sole custody and marginalize mothers parental time as payback, but shared custody. And feminist groups… Read more »
Hmm but I wonder how many of the early feminists would have fought for Lorenna Bobbit. My bet, not a lot. Feminism, as an idea, started out as a fight for equality. It’s taken some very wrong turns, and I think part of the way it has screwed itself up is by victimizing women and demonizing men. It viewed men as the people in power who needed to be overcome. I worry about the MRM doing the same thing with feminists…victimizing men and demonizing feminists. (Not demonizing women…I don’t think that the mainstream MRM is demonizing women…but feminists, yeah sometimes).… Read more »
By using the word fight I mean that NOW under-wrote Bobbit’s legal defenses. NOW is seen to be the premier feminist organization.
F&F under-wrote a soldier mom’s legal defense.
Again: totally different animals.
I think many are seeing feminism as a broken movement and unable to be saved, hijacked by extremists who ended up getting quite a bit of power. So hence they see it as number 2, a threat to EQUAL rights for men. From what I can tell both the mra and the original feminism have the same goal of equality, but the new feminism has left major doubt in many men and women. That demonizing of men has taken it’s toll, even I find it hard to listen to the new non-egalitarian feminism because every fibre of my being feels… Read more »
@John Gottman – pretend I was articulate enough to say what Archy said. 😉 This is what I’m trying to say.
I understand Archy’s point. My rebuttal would be this: A) as Tom M calls for men are going to have to stop internalizing the concept that they must suffer in silence for the greater good B) the slight bridge-building seems to be growing OUT OF the MRM, not feminism. Many bad feminists in the movement have villified men. They have even passed laws based on it. Feminists have largely gotten away with this BECAUSE of the male perspective that they must suffer in silence. By finding our voice, and if need be INFLICTING it upon feminists and others (from the… Read more »
It reminds me of the book “Black Like Me”. An author uses special pigments to dye his face and hands black and writes about his ordeal blending into society. IN one scene the only seat available on a bus is the one next to him. There is an elderly white lady who looks skeptical about sitting beside him. The author gets out of his seat and stands so the white lady can sit unencumbered with the “danger” of sitting next to a black man. Many of the blacks give him dirty looks. The author says he understands later that he… Read more »
Agreed, it’s time men spoke out and never stay silent again. We take on so much burden and through macho culture and fear of being seen as weak we remain quiet on that which hurts us, we’re expected not only by many men but by many women to be beasts of burdens at times, free of emotional problems, super strong and ready to work work work and die for others.
Find those voices lads, it’s time to talk!
Ya see, theres two generalisations there:
1 Feminists are evil: Theres too many contradicting varieties of feminism out there for that to be true.
2 MRAs are good: Unfortunately not, I’ve seem some pretty hateful stuff come from the MRM. We should acknowledge our demons.
Peter, You are correct. However, my counter-point to this would be the following argument. The harm you see done by feminists typically comes from national, high-profile, clout-wielding, politically active self-identifying feminist organizations like NOW and AAUW. Fundamental feminist IPV fanatics have banned researchers and male victims from testifying before congress during VAWA reauthorization hearings. NOW and 80 other feminist groups created an alliance of feminist organizations called WEAVE who’s sole purpose was to derail Obama’s stimulus for shovel ready projects and cut off a slice of that pie for women (this at a time when male sectors were 80% of… Read more »
Also, the random MRA who villifies women and feminists (en mass) have only the power of their words.
These national, politically-active, clout-wielding feminist organizations have the power to pass their bigoted sentiments into LAWS.
Once again not even comparable. And when you compare ONLY organizations rather than individuals MRA’s are much more egalitarian than the almost all of the feminist organizations. Male organizations like RADAR, SAVE, Nactional coalition for Men, fathers and families, intactivists have a much better record than NOW and AAUW.
NOW even paid for Lorenna Bobbit’s legal fees for pity’s sake.
I do enjoy seeing earlier pieces come back and still be relevant enough to get fresh discussion going, but it can be easy to miss it’s pickup up from where it may have left off many months before, if not longer. On the front page of comments for these articles, for example, the last comment from typhon_uncensored until the conversation re-started was posted almost a year ago – March 15, 2011. So, uh…keep that in mind. (I’ll see if I can do something about making it more clear that when an article is being re-published.)
Indeed. I was a lot more frustrated with the GMP back then.
However, the point still stands. I don’t think men in power really share _anything_ with the men not in power. Except antipathy. Men in power seem to get great glee in squishing powerless men like bugs.
Not very encouraging is it? Enter OCCUPY. How long before the bugs get fed up with being squished and start getting even? But hey – that’s a whole new can of worms 😉
I have a question. But we have no one to blame but ourselves. We made the laws. We control the media. We have, in the end, suffered too long in silence. Too many of us have knuckled under and become absentee fathers. Given the massive gap between the men that do make the laws and the men that don’t make the laws and despite their best efforts are governed by them how is it that when talking about helping men we become some sort of collective “we” that is responsible for every bad thing that’s ever happened? I’m all for… Read more »
Interesting that you talk about the collective “we”. I submit that IN PUBLIC the collective we often becomes “I’m sorry dear, I really didn’t mean that” when politics and law conflict with domestic peace. Men have been making laws for centuries to appease their wives. This is the basis for the great myth of male supremacy. When the little lady speaks, men write legislation. Ask any politician and I guarantee the male politicos will deny it till their dying breath. Life is seldom as it seems.
Kinda like the phrase, “When mom’s not happy no one is happy”?
I agree that that phrase is unfair to mom but at the same time there is some truth to it. I mean look at how when Obama was about to inject some money into several industries at the last minute they suddenly got redirected to mostly women. You think you can keep a straight face while claiming that this would have gone anywhere near as smoothly if it was the other way around?
Heather, I admire many of your comments and you seem genuine. Did you really have to learn about equal but different at university? In my mind this entire discussion relates to “everything I needed to learn about life, I learned in kindergarten” Share, look out for one another, hold hands crossing the street and so on and so on. The only thing getting in the way of good, natural human relationships is wrong headed bigotry as taught to us by wrong headed bigots who we were unfortunate enough to have as role models. “The most expensive thing a person can… Read more »
Ah I was in a bit of a rush to get some comments out, so I was a bit more brief than I could have been. Feminism, as an ideal, was something I wasn’t presented with until I picked up The Feminist Mystique in high school. I read it, some things clicked, and I decided I was a feminist. Mostly though, what drove me was a hell of a lot of anger. So while I had learned all of the classic kindergarten lessons, I sort of ignored them when it came to feminism. My town was rather traditional, my mother… Read more »
grins – u b awesome – be happy – stay focused –
Thanks. 🙂 It’s part of why I always feel the need to respond when people claim that universities all teach a radical version of feminism. I don’t doubt that some do…heck I knew of one professor (not from my university) who was a Holocaust denier, and that’s pretty radical. Now it’s possible some kids could have sat in the same class I was and come away with a more radical message….but that wasn’t what was taught.
Actually, who am I kidding, I feel the need to respond to pretty much everything. 😉 lol.
“Around the same time is when I started taking gender studies classes. In those classes, the feminism that was taught really was about true equality. So it’s not just that I hadn’t learned about equality until then….it’s more that is when I learned about it in relation to feminism, and that is when it finally hit home.”
Glad to hear it 🙂
The normal response of feminists to the MRA/Roissy-ite point of view is to try to silence it. Or shame it away, which is the same thing. This is ever more widely understood as a testimony to the hollowness of feminististic worldviews.
These days, there is a one way progression from seeing the world as a school-taught feminist to being an anti-feminist. It never happens that anyone goes from reading Roissy to embracing modern gyno-supremacist bs or even fail to see thru the pretendedness of the “equality” posturing.
Well my ‘school-taught’ feminism (at university) was a lot more rational and equality-driven than the feminism I espoused to in high school. So my progression has been from a radical “men are the oppressors” feminism that was born out of my own anger and then it has become an egalitarian and equity-driven feminism that I was taught about at university.
@Heather, I’m glad you found that progression. I find it extremely hard to listen to radicals, I try with an open mind but quite a few have really offended everything I stand for and have seemed so far from equality it’s made me have that whole wtf face (extremist mra’s evoke the same reaction). Easy test people can do to see if a feminist space is egalitarian is mention an issue where men suffer and see if they get the whataboutthemenz insults, get “male privilege” used as a silencer and other ways to just generally tell men STFU. Sadly quite… Read more »
Yup. Totally agree with this. Though when I was at my most radical, I was also for women taking on responsibilities usually taken on by men (including women in the draft is probably the simplest example to give). The difference was that I blamed men for women not being included in the draft, if you get what I’m saying. I was radical in that I blamed the “male oppressors” for everything, but I wasn’t radical in that I didn’t want women to only get the benefits of equality. Hmm…maybe I’ll write a piece about it or something.
Everything I know of history (which isn’t too much:P) seems to usually do the typical few people in power who happen to be men and they oppress the hell out of everyone, which is why I see so many men really dislike the idea of male privilege because they’re being lumped in with the top dogs yet have very little power vs the “1%” etc. I simply blame society and just want it all to change. I’ll definitely read the piece when you write it. I really really want to see something about privilege PLUS responsibility, weighing out the benefits… Read more »
It’s funny, I’ve never viewed something like being included in conscription as a negative. I’ve always found the idea of getting rid of all the traditional “benefits” of being a woman to be a positive thing.
“It’s funny, I’ve never viewed something like being included in conscription as a negative. I’ve always found the idea of getting rid of all the traditional “benefits” of being a woman to be a positive thing.” I’m gonna guess you mean being seen as weak, less able as a man? Whilst men do get seen as stronger it comes with the price of being seen as disposable. Having to protect and sacrifice yourself for others, your life automatically is worth less than that of a woman. Acts of chivalry, honor, protecting the weaker women is also protecting women who are… Read more »
Yeah I agree with what you’re saying. That was a bit of a tossed-out comment that I sort of failed to give proper context, about conscription. I’m not saying conscription is a good thing…I was just referring to my dismay that women were not included. But yeah, what you’re saying in your entire post is definitely a much more accurate description of how I see things now. But I’d like to add that only part of my dismay at not being included in conscription has ever been about being viewed as weak. Just like…okay with men I suppose theoretically the… Read more »
Hey also, Archy…would you mind e-mailing me? I’ve got this idea that I’d like your help with if you don’t mind?
sure, julie has one of my emails and can probably set it up.
Ah or also, if you click on my little avatar there it’ll show you my e-mail. 🙂
“At the end of the day both sides just want to be free from oppression, misogyny, misandry, equal rights, not being forced into war to protect others, no being disposable, no silly sexism and gender role harms, ability to be themselves without judgment, and ability for both sides to be seen as both victim and perpetrator as individuals and not as a group.”
I like that a whole lot 🙂
I enjoyed this tale but advising men to engage with women in the western world at this moment in time is asking them to suicide which is exactly what feminism wants to fund DV family courts and divorce courts. why else does it keep on changing the playing field? Every time feminism gains ground men fall back. Well the only place to fall back now is away from women because there is no safety for men now and its only getting worse. Ironically feminists complain that men dont find them physically appealing then. Like the article I just read here.… Read more »
What the heck is “The Plan”?
It’s the National Council’s Plan for Australia to Reduce Violence against Women and their Children. Here’s a link to an article about it:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-governance-feminism/australia-the-new-saudi-arabia-of-radical-feminism/
PS It’s always the easy way out to be against something. All you have to do is trash talk and act the hero. A lot of what passes for intellectual discourse here falls into that category (in my personal and most humble opinion lol) Being for something means stepping up and doing the work – Byron Katie might have something to say about that (and I’d agree with her all the way) so yeah Tom, you hit the mark. Do right and don’t regret. Your children and everyone elses will be better for it. Above all, remember that fucking up… Read more »
“remember that fucking up is the road to growing up.”
Amen
I respect where you and Tom are coming from, admitting you’re wrong and being greatful for what you have are very important things. But its equally important to be against things from time to time, its important to stand up and say “Thats not right.” Sometimes being a good man means more than making do with what you have.
No need to be against in order to promote what we’re for right? I don’t have to bitch about unfair judges to campaign for fair divorce laws and clear guidelines judges must follow or cease to be judges. I don’t have to waste time battling man hating, over the top “feminists” to campaign for gender equality, fair treatment for everybody and mutual respect. I believe that when enough of us see the truth of what’s right and fair for everybody then all this other crap will disappear. It’s along the same lines as understanding that good jobs in countries that… Read more »
I read it once, nodding my head as I went and will no doubt read it again. Being a man and a father IS about owning your shit and speaking truth from the heart. I’m going to put it out there that in a fatherless land nothing prevents us from being fathers to some other mans offspring. If my brother(s) are MIA nothing prevents me from fathering except my own selfishness. If my brother(s) can’t be with their own children then let them be with someone elses (like maybe mine?). I see no need to whine about what I don’t… Read more »
Tom, what you’re trying to do here is admirable, but (and the earlier comment from typhonblue only reinforces my point), you’re never going to truly succeed until you clean house and rid this blog of the contributions–and comments–of the MRA movement (and I include GirlWritesWhat among that “august” group). Those guys–and that woman–are not really about “owning your shit” (despite what she claims) and trying to be a better man without the whining, excuse-making and refusal to make that fearless moral inventory. They’re all about “Women have it all–we menz are the REAL oppressed sex, wah wah.” They’re about whining… Read more »
Well…..I have to say I kind of disagree with you there, Tru. Not about the article, I really love the article. But about ridding the blog of MRA comments. I don’t think shutting out an entire group of people (mostly men) that are discussing men’s issues is the best way to explore what it means to be a good man. Maybe, instead of shutting them out, restructure it? Add a Men’s Right’s section or something? I dunno…I’m not in charge of how this site works. But I just think completely shutting them out isn’t the solution. I haven’t been here… Read more »
Hmmm or maybe not a Men’s Right’s section….but a Politics section and more MRM-oriented stuff could go there? *shrugs*
Thank you, Heather. it’s should be pretty obvious that excluding MRAs from a men’s issues blog makes no sense.
And Tru is a woman, as I recall – that makes the suggestion especially ridiculous.
“For the sake of the integrity of what you’re trying to do here, the MRAs and their twisted vision of manhood and masculinity have to go” A typical generalization based on no facts, you can easily see many of the MRA’s commenting take offense to certain parts of feminism and actually are fine with egalitarian feminists. What this site needs is egalitarian mra’s and feminists to work together along with the others but your comment sounds very ignorant and bigoted against MRA’s. What’s sad is that your comment is EXACTLY like the negative stereotypes commonly associated with mra’s, the bigotry,… Read more »
I’m sorry…did you say work together? Work together?! Are you out of your mind? How can we work together when the menz (feminists) are still oppressing us!? You’re a radical feminist (mra) just hiding behind the guise of egalitarianism aren’t you? 😉
That was a joke, btw.
😛 It gets annoying I know, I sit on the outside reading both the mra n feminists and it’s weird because they have both the radfem/bad mra’s, the gynocentric feminists and androcentric? mra’s, then the egalitarian feminists and mra’s. The common theme is neither side fully trusts each other, and they see the BAD a lot of the other side which destroys their trust more. So hopefully the good of each side dominates so they can both realize there are those they can work together with. There is one argument though that I’ve never seen successfully refuted, that even the… Read more »
Tru, let me tell you a little story. When I turned 32 years of age, I was in a session with my psychiatrist talking about my past. The minute I focused on what the girls did to me as a youth (particularly one crush who not only turned against me but sicked her boyfriend on me afterwards in the high school halls) I felt this raw rage and once the session was over, I was experiencing pure anger with heavy breathing and tense facial muscles tightening. It was the first time I had ever really acknowledged, fully, that what the… Read more »
Agreed. I think feminists probably have more of a political lobby because they’ve been around longer, and because it was a fairly sensational act having women get together to change politics. I’m just worried that 20 years from now (or whenever) the MRAs are going to have their own big political lobby and it’ll look just like the feminist lobby, only for men instead of women.
Also, I can’t for the life of me find any information about “The Plan.” Google is being most unhelpful.
Well personally I’d rather see the egalitarian movement take over everything and have a nice structure where gender rights, disability, racial rights, etc all work together and share resources but that’s probably more of a fantasy than a reality at the moment. ht tp://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-governance-feminism/australia-the-new-saudi-arabia-of-radical-feminism/ Is one of the articles on it, from what I’ve seen of it….”The Plan” makes me wonder “WTF ARE THEY THINKING”. It seems like a approach to ending violence in a way that is gendered (bad since it’s DV isn’t gendered, everyone can be victim and perp), harmful to men “Shifting official policy that views domestic… Read more »
I’m trying to think of a way to respond to this that isn’t just “agreed,” but that’s pretty much what I got. So…”agreed.” 🙂
Dudebro, you didn’t even understand what I said.
“They’re about whining and complaining about how everything from the courts to dating customs is out to get them, ” The gendered shaming language. Man-hating feminist. Check. “…..and how the world has been utterly destroyed by feminism.” Oh noes!!!!! Feminism is holy, they are blaspheming against feminism! “The simple truth is, they hate women,…” Mind-reading is a form of objectfication, Tru, just so you know that we are on to you. It is an expression of ownershiphttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification. That’s noted feminst scholar Barbara Nussbaum, someone I respect as a feminist and as a scholar, saying that. These commenters don’t hate women.… Read more »
I could make all those complaints about feminists and prove their inherant evil (based on Valerie Solonas, Mary Daly and others). I could do that, but it’d be a lie and women’s issues would still be problems.
And you believe feminists ARE the solution? The group that bans the domestic violence researchers Gelles and Strauss (the famous researchers who found 1 woman was abused every 15.5 seconds) from VAWA reauthorization hearings? The reason being that these researchers also found that 1 man is abused (by women) every 16 seconds, and is pushing for gender-neutral DV laws. The group that threatened Erin Prizzey (the woman who started the UK battered shelter movement)with bomb threats and THREATS TO HER FAMILY when she said women were equally violent (which she found by asking those she admitted about their OWN VIOLENT… Read more »
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Does the fact that it will likely be a man who will enable your wife to one day tear Cole from your arms make the pain easier to bear somehow, Tom? Is it because you know you share a group mind with that man–the judge who will side with your teary eyed wife as she tells him how much of a bad man you were? The two of you are in on some vast conspiracy, you’re compadres, you and him, you have your secret club-house and you-know-what is the key… And yet he’s still the one wielding the knife that’s… Read more »
Wow, that’s powerful. You are correct of course. Many men seem to be pulling the wool over their eyes in terms of their own lack of agency when it comes to the kids. It’s easier to say that you’re at fault somehow, because then it allows your mind to bury the lack of power and the victimization. What about the loving fit fathers who were cheated UPON by the mothers and still can’t get access to their kids? What about the loving fit fathers who’s exes move the children 1000’s of miles away with the courts blessings? Is that the… Read more »
“Women dominate the very vocabulary by which men’s lives are described and interpreted, both at home and in the media.”
“Men are afraid to dip their toe into the unfamiliar waters of their interior lives since they fear they might end up crying on Oprah’s couch.”
The first sentence is quite true. Women dominate the discussion about men.
The second sentence shows just how much feminized thought has influenced men. Men aren’t afraid about crying on Oprah’s couch. Men are simply not as emotional as women nor should they be. Men are not broken women.
I acknowledge your right to ‘out’ yourself in this piece. What I take serious issue with here, is you breaking the anonymity of Frank. If you received his permission to do so, then that should have been disclosed immediately. If his name is pseudonym, then that should have also been disclosed. You describe his physical appearance, his history of incarceration, his family, the place of the meeting, and where the man is employed. On the INTERNET sir. I won’t even bother to address the rest of your pompous grandstanding. “”Whom you see here, what you hear here, when you leave… Read more »
We’re just having an honest debate here. Why bring violence into it at all?
Perhaps an attempt to insinuate the association ‘MRA=Knuckle Dragger’?
“Unlike you who want to find a feminist bogeyman in every minor slight- -regardless of reality, history, or personal experience.”
the so called “feminists” here had shown us that they know litlle about their own history. We don’t need bogeymen- acts are speaking for themselves. Your shaming tactic is falling back on your head. The truth is, you have nothing in your hands to stop us. feminism, as a hate ideology, has to be eradicated, for our sons AND daughters wellbeing.
Hey, maybe you guys could go off and have a fistfight!
If you pay my plane ticket… I’m from eastern europe.
No he made mistakes because he made mistakes. He is dealing with as a man. Unlike you who want to find a feminist bogeyman in every minor slight- -regardless of reality, history, or personal experience.
Stop this insanity. It’s transparent and disgusting.
“Stop this insanity. It’s transparent and disgusting.”
The insanity begins with your ignorance.
@ Fred Where the OP is bad, he’s bad like every man. Where he is good, he is unique, a special snowflake onto himself? I’m having a hard time chewing through this guy’s stories. Once he waxes lyrical my eyes glaze over and ‘blah,blah,blah’ echoes in my ears. But I have noticed something. He’s definitely a man in charge, an alpha if you will. He was when he was a businessman screwing over others and he still is as a feminist man, screwing over other men. He cautions men not to blame, not to be angry, but I imagine he’s… Read more »
If you don’t vote… don’t bitch.
Mr. Matlack: Robert Bly and his “Iron John” had nothing over “Iron Joe Bob” http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Joe-Bob-Briggs/dp/0871135531 It is the real, although satirized, story of the Mens’ Movement. As for me, I feel that men are inherently “good,” and further, that they should be able to define what that means on their own terms, separate from the opinions, values, beliefs, and attitudes of women. Reason, accountability, and responsibility is an equal opportunity endeavor and women are just as culpable as men for the public havoc and private strife that exists in the world. For men and women both, it is ignorance combined… Read more »
This is an amazing portrait of a man who is incapable of acknowledging female agency in his life. Wow. Just. Wow. “I feel like a decent guy, and I know that, more importantly, I am raising my sons Cole and Seamus to be the same and my daughter Kerry to know what a good man looks like. ” But not raising your sons to know what a decent woman looks like, of course. Well here I am, safely shielded behind the rampart you’ve erected between woman and person. All I can say? Thank god I’m not married to you. Or… Read more »
I feel you’ve somewhat missed the point here. Defining a “decent woman” doesn’t seem to me the point of a blog entitled “Good Men Project.” Attempting that definition is something I’d even be uncomfortable doing. However, as a man who’s seen the highs and lows of manhood, I feel Tom’s earned some rights to comment on that–ever acknowledging that your mileage may vary (this is one of the tacit understandings in first-person writing like this). Commentary on “Good Womanhood” from a man will almost always come across as condescending at best, probably misogynist at worst. Furthermore, simply leaving the agency… Read more »
Man up, because women can’t.
“But we have no one to blame but ourselves. We made the laws. We control the media. We have, in the end, suffered too long in silence.”
Maybe you can’t. Maybe the real power is in the negative space that the phrase ‘man up’ carves out.
You define the laws. We define you.
“Or do we embrace their successes while developing our own powerful voice for good in the world, most particularly when it comes to be being fathers and husbands?” Pretty hard to have a powerful voice as a divorced father when the standard “cookie cutter” visitation schedule in America is: “every other weekend and two hours on Wednesdays” – and that possible only if your ex-wife decides not to move to another city or state or obstruct your visits. Women’s “successes” have come at the expensive of fathers/husbands/children – just ask any man and his children who has gone through divorce.… Read more »
Nice essay. I think one place where I think we may see change in coming years is that as more men participate in family life and share the good earner, good parent, good partner role that many of us women are trying to do as well, it will be easier for boys to reach adulthood. There will be less need for fights with other boys and men to be the sine qua non of “manhood,” for emotional isolation, for acting out things rather than articulating them first. More boys will have a compassionate-mentor type father and mothers who can relate… Read more »
Sorry – I made some confusing typos in the above – corrected here. Nice essay. I think one place where I think we may see change in coming years is that as more men participate in family life and share the good earner, good parent, good partner role that many of us women are trying to do as well, it will be easier for boys to reach adulthood. There will be less need for fights with other boys and men to be the sine qua non of “manhood,” for emotional isolation, for acting out things rather than articulating them first.… Read more »