So-called Men’s Rights groups think of child support as a charge women impose on men. Edwin Lyngar’s experience didn’t resemble their ideas at all.
—
Writing this piece has reminded me how much I appreciate having a place like the Good Men Project, a place where men can talk about our issues in a positive, constructive way.
When I first got divorced in 2003, I looked for support from many traditional men’s rights groups. You can find them with a simple web search, and there are dozens that focus on the problems of men and family court. Even a cursory glance will give you a good idea of the common themes, issues like shared parenting, parental alienation syndrome and visitation after divorce. I am extremely sympathetic to many of the issues listed, but one of the biggest complaints of “traditional” men’s groups I think is nonsense: The issue of child support.
Divorce forums are full of men complaining about child support. I understand that it’s a burden. The debt can’t be discharged and you can get thrown in the slammer if you don’t pay, and losing a job is a big problem. However, it’s more troubling that so many children live in poverty following divorce. According to the latest census report, 29% of children living with a single parent lived in poverty (versus 19% of from all other households).
After my own divorce, I sought out men’s groups, but I quickly soured on them, and child support was a big reason. You see, I had full custody of my two kids, aged three and nine, and I was a (theoretical) child support collector. But during the first three years after my divorce, my child support amounted to shit, compared with what it cost to raise kids. My ex-wife paid only three hundred dollars a month for two kids and the checks were always late. My daughter’s day care was six hundred a month, so child support paid roughly half of one bill. On top of it, we constantly fought and argued over that measly three hundred bucks.
What’s worse is that the myopic focus on child support muddies the real issue of equal treatment of men in family court. I can say, without a doubt, that I was treated with suspicion in family court. The judge could not comprehend why my ex-wife gave up the kids and the house. Family court can often assume the best of the mom and the worst about dad. Because of my own experience, I didn’t even try to enforce child support or ask for a reasonable amount. My kids suffered because of my cowardice.
When I remarried a few years after my divorce, my new wife (an attorney) told me about child support enforcement. One visit downtown (and two very painful hearings later) and I finally fixed the situation. The state collects the money and gives it to me. I don’t have to ask, deal with bounced checks or argue with my ex-wife anymore. In fact, it’s been years since I have. My later experiences have been more than fair—the system has even been kind to me.
Resentment lingers for some groups over the issue of child support. To those fathers, I would ask: Why should I have to crawl to my ex-wife and beg for money?
|
Resentment lingers for some groups over the issue of child support. To those fathers, I would ask: Why should I have to crawl to my ex-wife and beg for money? Why then should any single mom have to beg money from her ex-husband to raise their children?
She shouldn’t, nor should I.
It costs a fucking fortune to raise kids (almost a quarter million dollars per kid by some estimates). Both parents should be responsible even when it hurts. I am still paying way more to raise our remaining shared child than I’ll ever see in child support, which is exactly what I signed up for when I had children!
Many years ago, my own father heard someone complain about child support and he scoffed. “I paid every dime I earned to raise kids. I wish I would have just had a monthly payment.” I never forgot his observation, because it’s so true. Child support seems unfair, but every good parent gives every cent he or she can to raise children. That’s the deal when you become a dad or mom. My own years as single father were lean, hard times. I wore shit, drove shit and ate shit, but I’ll never regret one moment of it.
Whether you pay or collect child support, we all have to do what it takes. As divorcees say a thousand times to children, “It’s not your fault.” Just because we parents couldn’t keep our shit together is no reason to let our offspring live in poverty. So just pay your fucking bills, and let’s get to solving some real problems.
Photo—banjo d/Flickr
Please note that the author has a vested interest in continuing child support. Amazing how the only people who support this madness are those who benefit directly from it.
85% of child custody is settled WITHOUT a custody battle. Decent parents don’t take the kids from the parent who was *most involved* before divorce. 55-78% of men fighting for custody were violent abusers (Johnston & Campbell, Jafre & Austin, and The California Office of the Courts, over 1,800 case study. In “High Conflict” custody battles, over 75% are abused mothers trying to protect their kids. Women are stayng childless or refusing to name fathers over this insanity. If he is violent, a sex offender or both, can you blam her?
I swear I could write a book on Child support/Spousal support and the whole messed up system, I pay my support no issues there but the system is so messed up that it only sees her side and her side only, Lies, greed, perjury, mischief, this list goes on, how much money do one person need to prove these things in court ? No I am not perfect but damn it I want the system to be fair, No one listens or cares, thats the most frustrating part of all of this. No matter how down I was I had… Read more »
Sorry dude. You decided to have sexual relations with someone and a baby came out of it. Now you have to pay to raise the baby. They are expensive! Your ex does not sit and do nothing all day. She looks after your goddamn kids. Have some respect and pay what you need to to make sure your kids are well looked after. Jesus.
✋️ grow up, read what I said!
Do you know my ex ? Seems you don’t but you have an opinion on what she is not doing ? Unbelievable the arrogance of people on the forum.
What you’re not getting is that “Child Support” has absolutely NOTHING to do with the CHILDREN. It has EVERYTHING to do with extracting/stealing Money from Fathers. It works by stroking the Weakness/Ego of “grown up girls” who want to be “Divas” like on The View or Oprah. It’s about preventing parents from being parents. “Parents” discuss and make agreements, and sometimes disagree with “Yes, No, Sure, Maybe” for what are the best decisions for their children. When you FORCE a parent to automatically pay/support ALL the decisions of the other parent, that discussion can’t take place… It may seem to… Read more »
My ex used the family court to bully me. Fresh from Belize, he complained that he had to ride in other people’s cars and get discount housing. And that was one of his many vacation this year on his less than 30K a year-on paper. One might even suspect child support was a ruse, because almost as soon as he signed for it during mediation in the amount HE offered,, he went back to court to terminate it. The year and a half he didn’t pay child support I asked for forty dollars for an eye exam. He declined but… Read more »
My issue is that a close reading of my states child support guidelines indicate that the purpose of the transfer payment is to provide a government mandated LIFESTYLE for the children, and by inference, the custodial parent. It takes two people to create a child, therefore providing for that child’s needs should be a shared responsibility instead of treating the non-custodial parent as an indentured servant. I have also become convinced that child support compliance should be measured as the percentage of parents (with the means to do so) who are sharing the responsibility for providing for their children’s needs.… Read more »
Wow. Amazing. This should be bronzed and considered a required read for anyone who is dealing with support issues.
I think as each generation passes it is in the best interest of children and our future for all children to be raised by a mother and father. We need balanced children nurtured by 2 parents irrelevant of weather they are living together or not. Custody by default should be 50/50 by law unless in the case of convicted violence or drugs etc charges with week on week off as mandatory all expenses 50/50. a parent is not allowed to relocate children to another city without consent an alternate arrangement can be agreed on for custody and child support as… Read more »
Even in cases of 50/50 custody child support is still often required. In my case my ex-wife earns next to nothing, so they calculate that I must pay her. She uses the money to pay for a condo and doesn’t spend any of it on the children. So then I pay more for all their activities.
Thank you for highlighting this issue.
I did an article and some interviews on this subject and I have come to one conclusion.
That the whole process of a family breaking up or never coming together, partnered with the complete brokenness of the child support system is simply not fair to anyone.
Especially for the children involved, the parents, and the court system.
I have yet to hear a story in which someone has praised the child support system, and I don’t think I will hear one soon.
Whether mothers have to beg for child support is a mute point. The government gets it for them. But is the government and the “family” courts always fair in these issues? or do they use the “best interest of the child’ as an excuse to be draconian? (see Bradley amendment).
I think what people are not talking about is if fathers should have to beg to see their own children in a dignified manner?
Fairness for all would be if the child is 10 during the divorce, the child will be able (and would be encouraged to live with each parent for the remaining 8 years (4 years with the mother, and then 4 years with the father), then there would also be a switch from custodial to noncustodial and visa versa. Too disruptive???, not anymore than having a malicious parent and the “family” courts drive a loving parent out of your life. This way all win, and the mother and father share the child and share being the custodial/noncustodial parent times. The current… Read more »
If there is going to a state enforcement agency for support, it only seems logical for them to enforce visitation in some way. Either stay out of it, or help on all sides. The way it is, leaves way too much room for game playing.
@ Luke “I don’t have any problem paying child support and the system we have here in Australia seems more than fair and equitable” “I don’t see how it is fair on either me or the kids that I get limited time with my kids simply because it reduces my ex’es dole and govt benefits payments.” That’s because it’s not fair and equitable. That’s the same mistake that Edwin makes. Just because men are willing to participate in an unfair system for the sake of the children doesn’t make the system fair. Just because child support is necessary doesn’t mean… Read more »
What would be “fair” to the parents? Should we even be concerned with “fairness” at all when it comes to adults. Women suffer in divorce and men suffer in divorce. The real question (when kids are involved) is how to lessen the suffering of children. Children are the real victims of divorce. Think about it. When a childless couple divorces does anyone give a fuck? I certainly don’t. People break up all the time for good and bad reasons. That’s just life. When kids are introduced, that’s where the problems begin. There are lots of good questions and comments about… Read more »
Should we even be concerned with “fairness” at all when it comes to adults.
Because the fairness to the adults appears to factor into the children’s wellbeing.
If one parent is being treated unfairly then it can interfere with their ability to do their part of the parenting responsibility.
You wish that the passion were directed at issues more important than money. The reason the passion is directed that way is because a lot of the unfairness and interference can be traced back to the money.
@ edwin lyngar I think there are many assumptions being made. The first assumption is that the custodial parent will always act in the best interests of the child. Like some of the comments pointed out, this isn’t always the case. Another assumption is that the non-custodial parent won’t use their resources for the benefit of the child. This assumption is also refuted in the comments. Why should the people who receive child support get a pass when being passionate about money? Why when we discuss receiving child support rather than paying it does fairness to parents start to matter?… Read more »
@ john anderson — I’ll will give you the fact that NOT all custodial parents are in it for the “best interest of the child” – that’s a good point. But still, someone has to support the kid and it costs WAY more than child support “payers” are willing to admit.
This is a really good, passionate discussion …
@ edwin lyngar I don’t want you to think that people are “busting on” you. I think a lot of the frustration is that when fathers rights groups talk about child support, their ideas and concerns are not addressed. They’re told shut up and pay. I think many of these ideas are worth a look at. If not something that we should outright adopt, a custodial parent having a legal responsibility to financially contribute to a child, at least it could be something that influences future policy such as maybe we shouldn’t be draconian about demanding child support payments from… Read more »
Yes we should be concerned about fairness. The kid is most important but the father is still a person and is worthy of basic respect. Also why the hate on mra’s when you post this on a MRA site?
I don’t have any problem paying child support and the system we have here in Australia seems more than fair and equitable – it treats male and female the same as far as child support goes. The big issue I have is the fact I only see my kids 4 days a fortnight because my ex doesn’t have a job and to see them more would affect her income significantly. I saw a lawyer about this and he said if you get 4 or more days you should be thankfull and just say yes I agree. It’s possible you could… Read more »
So we’ve had a few feminist positive articles, and now one that is portraying MRA’s in a negative light? Is this just coincidence or is there some recent push to regain feminist readers? Most common MRA complaint I see is HEAVY child support to the point of putting him into financial hardship whilst also the mother is willfully restricting access and the courts ignore it. Men who become not much more than a paycheck, who cannot see their kids (non-abusive men). Another is the financial abortion option. She has 100% choice over whether that fetus is born or not in… Read more »
Hi Archy You write: ✺”She has 100% choice over whether that fetus is born or not in states with access to abortion, he has no choice post conception. “✺ He has 100% choice over who he gives his sperm to unless he is raped. He has 100% choice in using a condom ( used correctly ) or none. He has 100% choice to have a vasectomy. He has 100% choice in choosing a women he can trust, instead of having sex with strangers or women he know he can’t trust. He has 100% choice in finding out what kind of… Read more »
All of the above women also have a form of. However people seem to get upset when women are told to just keep there legs closed… yet don’t seem to mind telling men to do just that. If a women wants to no longer carry a kid inside her that is her choice. Its her body and this must be respected. When men can be pregnant they can have abortions. But what about the other privileges women have over men that have nothing to do with being pregnant? If you are a women who has given birth and decide you… Read more »
So why behave like this is an enormous problem?
Because telling women that is called shaming but telling men those things is called calling him out.
Double standard.
He has 100% choice over who he gives his sperm to unless he is raped.
And even when he is its entirely possible for him to still be held financially responsible for the child (and if he’s a minor then his parents can be held responsible).
Why is there such a focus on giving women as many options as possible and stopping men from having the same?
I have an honest question: other than being able to force a woman to get an abortion or not holding a man financially responsible for a child that he had as much involvement in creating as the child’s mother did, what “other options” do you think there should be? Do you think that a man forcing a woman to have an abortion she does not want or leaving all financial responsibility with the mother should be allowed? I think this author’s overall point is a good one: child support is not a replacement for having to work or shell out… Read more »
This conversation would be rendered moot if people and institutions claiming to be fair and equal actually were.I mean,what is so damned difficult about being what one says one is? One system that was biased and unfair has been replaced with another that is biased and unfair.This is beyond stupid.Man up and pay doesn’t begin to address that.
I think there are some variables in the child support system that this article does not come close to addressing. In Canada, child support does not cover day care. That is considered an extraordinary expense. The support guidelines that are in place were designed to cover the expenses that would be incurred to raise a child based on income. Only the income of the non-custodial parent is considered, Expenses paid by the non-custodial parent while the children are “visiting” are not considered significant. Up to forty percent of the time with the children is considered insignificant. With child support payments… Read more »
@ Marc
And in the U.S. much is made of the gender income gap, but child support payments count as taxable income to the person who made it and is not taxed for the person who receives it. Also the child credit unless specifically split between the two parties is given to the custodial parent.
Well-written article, but the cognitive dissonnance of my experiences will never make child support anything other than a bitter pill to swallow. This was my child support experience: “I have to pay the person, who treated me like shit, a big chunk of my salary, to raise my child. (Something I would’ve done happily with no funds fom her.) This person can also choose to arbitrarily deny our time together on a whim. If I take the effort and expense to try to defend my parental rights, the law will often act prejudically against since I am a man. Finally,… Read more »
Everything that you stated in your post sums up how I feel. I have a difficult time understanding how no action has been taken to correct these wrongs and injustices.
The courts clearly tend to treat men and women differently. I don’t want to downplay those very real double standards. However, on some level, talking about these issues in terms of “men’s rights” and “women’s rights” tends to reinforce the idea that men and women should be treated differently. It tends to reinforce the misimpression that people calling for equal rights for fathers are asking for some sort of “special rights,” when what they’re really asking for is equal rights. Ideally, we should be talking about “parental rights,” which should not be prejudiced one way or the other based on… Read more »
The problem a lot of MRAs have with child support is that its actually related to a lot of the imbalances that haunt the family court system. The thing is a lot of fathers (even MRAs) pay support (and If I recall when it comes to the numbers on who have been ordered to pay support the majority of them actually do pay) its just that saying so can garner anything from weird look for “bragging” to being called names. But unlike a lot of the folks that are quick to do nothing but complain about what MRAs say about… Read more »
Family courts can, should and must enforce visitation. I do not think it’s right to reduce “fatherhood” to a “check.” There is a movement that I agree with that starts with the assumption of joint (50/50) custody.
And that’s exactly what a lot of MRAs push for. A presumption of 50/50 custody but (and this is something that a lot of feminist hecklers manage to “miss”) with room to adjust individual situations as needed.
Statistics show that men/fathers are more than just child support checks. Its tragic that many American family courts are removing the childs right to a meaningful relationship with their father after a divorce.
Hi Edwin
It is interesting to see if the MRA will respond to your article or ignore it.
Hi Iben,
It will be even more interesting to see if he responds to the MRA.
It’ll be far more interesting to see if the response is posted.
The problem with MRAs and this issue is that child support seems to be more about the person paying versus the person collecting RATHER than men against women. At least in my mind. Again, in theory, family court CANNOT discriminate against men or women, rather they are supposed to be gender neutral. Again, I realize that fathers feel treated unfairly in family court (I “won” but still felt like I was treated badly). One of my major points here is that we need to focus on gender neutrality in family court. Too many men (especially) get far to angry /… Read more »
Too many men (especially) get far to angry / fixated on the child support issue. Kids cost money, a lot of money, and they often live in poverty after the dissolution of a marriage. Child support is about fairness to children, not about making men happy. If child support were about fairness to children then wouldn’t orders be more reasonable and easier to adjust? What’s the benefit to the child when a man is being ordered to pay an amount that he cannot meet? What’s the benefit to the child when failure to pay can result in jail time (meaning… Read more »
@ Danny
“What’s the benefit to the child when failure to pay can result in jail time (meaning he’s in jail and thus is unable to work to make the payments)”
Not just to make the payments, but to be a dad. Unless he’s abusive, having a father in prison benefits the child how? I would think the child would be better if his father were not in jail regardless of whether support payments were made.
Yes very true. This seems to bely a hypocritical stance when it comes to non custodial dads. On one hand supposedly they are needed to “step up” and be fathers but on the other time and again the top priority of that stepping up is making sure he pays.
But when men get angry about being mistreated over the money all of a suddenly their the ones that are trying to make it all about the money?
@ edwin lyngar “Kids cost money, a lot of money, and they often live in poverty after the dissolution of a marriage. Child support is about fairness to children, not about making men happy.” And one way to lift a child out of poverty is to ensure that if the mother can work, she does. It seems though that there are those who believe that child support is about ensuring the happiness of mothers rather than children. Why shouldn’t the custodial parent have to contribute financially to their child? Children living in poverty doesn’t necessarily mean that their mothers are… Read more »
Let’s start by measuring child support compliance by the percentage of parents sharing the responsibility for providing their children’s needs instead of by the gross amount of child support collected. That would include self-support sustenance reserves for BOTH parents (like the Delaware Melson formulas use) and a rebuttable cap on child support awards to help reduce the hidden alimony in many high income child support awards. Then, we can replace what is a modified percentage-of-income formula for calculating child support with child support plans like this http://www.mediate.com/articles/if_they_can_do_parenting_plans.cfm that let the PARENTS decide how to share the responsibility for providing for… Read more »
One thing that I struggle to understand about how child support in my case works is why does my ex get 60% of our combined incomes, yet she has the kids less than 60% of the time? I guess the kids’ quality of life when they are with me shouldn’t be as good as when they are with their mother….. Also, why are childcare and health costs splits calculated before the child support payments are factored in? I make 40% of the combined income after support payments, yet I’m on the hook for over 60% of the childcare and healthcare… Read more »
I’d love yo see if anyone who feel that child support is fair and doesn’t need modifications respond to this. So why shouldn’t child support be prorated based on the amount of time the children spend with each parent? Don’t the children need a roof over their head and food to eat when they’re with their father?
Apparently not. You’d think the order for child support would take into account what both parents are making in order try to make sure the child is taken care of as best as possible.
I know someone who went through a bitter divorce and he has full custody of his kids also. He’s had problems collecting from his wife also so had her wages garnished so I know what you’re talking about, but I don’t think you fully understand what the MRAs are complaining about and here’s why “My daughter’s day care was six hundred a month,” That means to me that you’re a working parent and that’s one difference. One complaint MRAs have is that the custodial parent has no obligation to financially contribute to the child. In the case of this guy,… Read more »
“Her” income tends to be irrelevant in my mind. If you pay twenty percent of your income, or even 25% and it makes up half of “her” income, it should not matter if that is what it costs to care for the kids. I know that men get angry over child support, but day care costs for three kids in preschool (your example) could top 2k easy. I paid 1800 a month for two preschool kids. It costs a fortune to raise kids. Child support is often critical for the custodial parent. You cited my example, so let me clarify:… Read more »
@ Edwin
““Her” income tends to be irrelevant in my mind”
That’s probably true for many MRAs also, but what she contributes is relevant unless you don’t believe that she has an equal obligation to support the child and that is the point.
My family court judge and I have a difference of opinion. Because it takes two people to create a child, I feel that providing for the children’s needs should be a shared responsibility. Her Honor has stated that “…your [ex-]wife and your children (NOT just my children) deserve that money (referring to child support) while ignoring the fact that my ex-wife is voluntarily unemployed and treats the ‘child support’ as Undifferentiated Family Support. I have no objections to sharing the responsibility for providing for my children’s needs, but I do object to supporting my ex-wife and her live-in boyfriend that… Read more »