Katarina Ilic goes on a short rant about how soon is too soon when first dating.
Originally published on SNSPost.com
Will you allow me to go on a little rant for a minute?
I’m “Love & Sex” Editor at SNSPost in Belgrade, Serbia. I’m in my early 30’s and single. I have the desire to have a partner in life, to meet someone I’d like to spend the rest of my life, i.e. to “do” life together. I’m not desperate to do this nor dying to get married, rather, I’m enjoying my life exactly as it is and I’m committed to living it to the fullest, in line with my truth and highest self.
What does that mean? It means that I’ve been completely open to meeting men, going out on dates, enjoying getting to know them and just having fun, without any pressure. It does NOT mean that I’m into hooking up and casual sex. That being said, I’ve noticed something that just “chafes my ass” {I know, so ladylike and feminine of me, but that’s the phrase that comes to mind.}
I’ve had the experience with some men, after only a couple of times of seeing each other, their next “date” suggestion entails a movie or dinner at his place or mine. Really?!?!
When a man suggests this, especially before we’ve had the chance to really get to know each other, I’m thinking: “He’s interested in one thing and that’s getting into my pants.”
Is that all you have to offer, men? I believe you can do better than that. And more importantly, for me, I want better than that for myself.
What about going out and doing something fun together? Really getting to know each other and experiencing things together. Even if it doesn’t head towards a serious relationship, what about just enjoying getting to know another human being at a soul and heart level, sharing, learning and growing?
I’m not saying that all the planning has to be “on him” or that a ton of money has to be spent on extravagant nights out. Just be a little creative, put in a little effort. A couple of years ago, I went out with a guy who was on a budget. He picked me up and presented me with 3 envelopes, each one contained a card with a different “date” idea on it, all costing less than $50. He asked me to pick one of the envelopes, not knowing what was written on the inside, and that was how we were going to spend our date. It was extremely creative, thoughtful and fun! (Sidenote: he lived in a different city over an hour away, so he actually had to put in a little time and research to come up with these three ideas).
You can certainly ask a woman for ideas and input or just listen, get to know her, and you will find out what she likes and doesn’t like. Living in Belgrade, Serbia, there are plenty of cool things to do here and fantastic events going on. So much more than just hanging out at his place or mine. Which, of course, can be really nice as well, but after we’ve gotten to know each other and it’s a natural progression.
I want people in my life, whether it will be just a friendship or develop into something more, who want to spend time with me because of who I am, not because they’re hoping to get something (like an orgasm) from me.
So that’s my little rant. What do you think? I’d love to hear your thoughts on this.
I was going to ask: “Do you think I’m being irrational and too hard?” But you know what? Back to what I said earlier, I’m committed to living in line with my truth and highest self. So if something makes me uncomfortable, I have to honor that. It doesn’t really matter what anyone else thinks.
I hope you do the same. Live in line with your heart and deepest desires.
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I suppose I am strange in this way, but when I am attracted to a man I do want to have sex with him and so therefore it would never occur to me that getting what I wanted was some kind of loss or selling myself short. I’ve never understood this pervasive mindset and I feel as though this makes me some sort of space alien among women.
Why is it supposed to negate interest in me if a man wants sex with me? It doesn’t negate my interest in him as a person that I want sex with him.
I think there is a serious need for some real initimacy in the world today that can only be achieved by getting to know someone. So I get the article and the courtship reply.
thank you Aya. well said.
Aja: sounds like you want a perfect platonic relationship to decide if the guy is qualified. But that is not good enough for me. Sex makes the relationship deeper.
Joe, I don’t think that asking to be with someone who actually enjoys spending time with me and not seeing the platonic part as some terrible burden counts as needing a perfect relationship. Not everyone is in a place in their lives where they want a casual sexual relationship or can handle that. And it’s not a matter of ‘qualification,’ My vagina isn’t Harvard. It’s not whether or not the guy passes a series of tests, it’s us deciding organically if and when the time is right. I’ve had sex very early on and I’ve had sex with people I… Read more »
I do not have a patent solution unfortunately.
But I can assure you that dating without a set date for the womans decision is like an endless Job interview. Event if you are succesful you will end up exhausted. And even more likely if you show signs of getting tired of dating she will interpret that as lack of interest in her and end the whole thing
If a guy sees it as a chore just to spend time with me, then chances are…we shouldn’t be having a sexual/romantic relationship in the first place. I can find someone else who actually enjoys hanging out with me and makes me feel that I’m worth more than my vagina. Even if you’re having sex several times a day, a good majority of the actual hours spent in a relationship are spent doing other things –eating, watching tv/movies, sleeping, discussing work, engaging in activities that one or both partners enjoy, chilling out, etc. If the mere idea of spending time… Read more »
I think he’s actually referring to some women who have a huge checklist for a man and the job interview needed is exhausting to find out if he passes or not. Some women can be extremely demanding and it’s not really worth the effort for some people, if I need to jump through hoops on fire whilst dodging bullets and juggling eggs whilst being chased by dogs with bees in their mouth then I’ll stick to porn or save up for a sex worker, or better yet hopefully find a decent woman. Could also be that he doesn’t want to… Read more »
That’s an interesting point you make, Joe. But unless you’ve made it clear that you’re interested in something more with her, how does she know you’re not just interested in sex only? So maybe a woman might find you attractive and she might be interested in having sex with you, but just not yet, until she sees if there’s a connection on other levels, too.
I have a point of view here: intelligent, fun women are a dime a dozen whereas devoted girlfriends are hard to come by. So: Why should I pursue the dating game with one more fun and intelligent woman? Well I guess that I just have to if I am looking for a romance, there is not other way. Which brings us to sex… Sex is like the gate that you have to go through to get into the romantic bit. It may not be so great the first time but it is the girl’s okay for relationship with you. If… Read more »
I believe the single biggest obstacle with women trying to get to know men is that there is always this suspicion that “he’s just trying to get in my pants.” You know what? YES WE ARE! That’s what drives us, that’s why you spend hours researching 3 date ideas and coming up with this romantic envelope thing. You think that guy was NOT trying to get in your pants? Some are just more creative than others. But an important distinction must be made here. We are not only interested in you for sex. We are not trying to figure out… Read more »
I’m sure that’s true for you. And for many men. But the opposite is also true (being judged, not being called or seen again, being used as a tool in the pursuit of sex/orgasm). And it’s often hard for women to know which potential one night experiences might lead to a more mutually satisfying adventure and which are just….not that. Many women I know personally have not had the experience you describe above. All people are different and there isn’t a way to determine who wants what, without communicating about it. And women too, can do the one night thing… Read more »
One time when I was 22, I had sex with a guy on a first date. At that age, I hadn’t had sex with very many guys before (I had a long term boyfriend during most if college). This guy had really been pursuing me for a date. He was a friend of a friend. I wasn’t even that attracted to him but I got really drunk . So. He did not call me again for more than a YEAR. I figured oh well, whatever. Chalk that up to experience. Then one day he calls me out if the blue… Read more »
What I see you all describing here are simply people who are very dishonest about what they want. Quite honestly, I don’t think that’s a single gender problem. I’ve seen just as many women as men be mercenary about what they want when they go out on a first date. Why is a desire to wined and dined somewhere expensive any more acceptable than a desire to get in someone’s pants? Why is a desire to get your physical needs satisfied any more ‘immoral’ than getting your material desires satisfied? I’ve had plenty of sex on first dates myself. Being… Read more »
@R.G. “I’ve seen just as many women as men be mercenary about what they want when they go out on a first date.” YES! That’s parity. 8) It may suck, it may be disappointing, it breaks the delusion that “MY gender is GOOD! (the other, not so much)”… 😉 But, as a matter of fact, everybody pursue his/her own interest. No gender excluded. @R.G.: “I find it much easier to judge sexual compatibility than emotional compatibility.” Of course. Sex is a – somehow – simpler matter than emotional alchemy. That’s ONE reason (among many) someone can be eager to have… Read more »
Ms. Ilic: My girlfriend and I, both middle-aged, are trying some thing a little different from the way we’ve done things in the past. Our relationship is relatively new, but we really like one another and both see a strong potential for a longterm committment. So what is it? She asked if we could try ‘courting’ or ‘courtship.’ I know it sounds a little (or a lot) old-fashioned. What does this mean for us? Well, for one, she asked that we not rush into the sexual component. She has said that in the past that she has felt pressured to… Read more »
I love it @CajunMick!! Thanks for sharing this with us 🙂
Hello Everyone,
Just letting everyone know that we’re a couple moderators short this week. If your comment ends up in moderation for an extended period chances are that’s the reason. Please have patience. Thanks.
@Katarina Ilic
so not to be all adversarial an such but, I didn’t hear you explain any of YOUR “oh so creative and wonderful date idea’s”. If “dating” is supposed to be a mutual process and the onus isn’t “all on men”, then would it not be prudent to assume that you also offered date options that catered to his interests and wasn’t based on sex?
If you didn’t attempt any such offerings then perhaps you’re expecting more out than you’re putting in (no disrespect intended)
As I just said above, I didn’t think it was appropriate or necessary for me to list my ideas for creative dates. What constitutes a fun date can vary greatly from person to person, so what would be the point in me sharing my ideas in this article?
Ugh. If you’re taking the traditional view that it’s the man’s responsibility to drive the relationship forward (and that’s what you seem to be saying) then it’s the woman’s responsibility to set clear boundaries. That means being verbal, not relying on body language. Otherwise you are ceding all the authority to the man to progress the relationship at the pace that _he_ wants to progress it at. Don’t sit around and wait for him to ask, tell him what you want! Be assertive, not passive. In the same sense that there’s a rude way to reject a man who’s hitting… Read more »
@Mr. Nervous Toes I didn’t think it was necessary for me to list all of my creative ideas in this article, that wasn’t the point.
Another false dichotomy I see here: either he’s interested in you as a person OR he’s interested in having sex with you. It is entirely possible for a man, I would even say most men, to do both. Sure, having sex has a way of changing a relationship, but it doesn’t automatically mean he doesn’t respect you as a person. When did this happen, that a man wanting to have sex with a woman means he doesn’t respect her?
@wellokaythen
Precisely! I just don’t get a lot of women on this point. Personally, I have to like a woman to have sex with her. That means getting to know here as a person. I need to discover her personality, he likes and dislikes, her intelligence, her sense of self, character etc…..
What is quite interesting is many women who feel like Miss. Illic have already engaged in a lot of casual sex. Suddenly, they want a “boyfriend” and the men they date are only suppose to be interested in them as a person, only.
Whatever.
No, see, you are missing the point. We want a guy to be interested in us sexually, we just don’t want that to be the ONLY thing. Personally, the fact that some random guy wants to have sex with me kind of makes me go, “meh.” Guys want sex, I get that. But he’d probably feel exactly the same way with any other reasonably attractive woman. So who cares? On the other hand, the fact that my boyfriend, who really knows me and cares about me, wants sex, is FANTASTIC.
What makes you think that a guy who’s interested in sex is ONLY interested in sex?
Also, if you’re convinced that random guys just lust after you because that’s what guys do, then what’s different about a guy’s lust ten dates from the first time he sees you to justify the leap from “meh” to “FANTASTIC”? Isn’t the only difference whether you were ready, rather than whether it took the guy knowing you well to finally feel some lust (assuming your “guys just lust” philosophy)?
I was responding to Terence Manuel’s statement about women who “have already engaged in a lot of casual sex. Suddenly, they want a ‘boyfriend’ and the men they date are only suppose to be interested in them as a person, only.” My point is that simply this. If you want to get to know someone a little bit before having sex with them, that does NOT mean you want a sexless relationship with a de-sexed partner who has zero lust for you. The complaint here is not that men are interested in sex (we know they are) but that it… Read more »
Maybe men find the sex to be special more often than the women do? Maybe we need to look at what these particular men and women find special? It’s starting to sound like it’s the women who don’t think sex early on is special in this case whilst the man does?
I see your point now.
You want him to put in some effort to make you feel special before he gets on the sex bandwagon…Not right out of the gate. You want him to get to know you a bit. Hopefully, you are interested in getting to know him too.
I think guys come out of the gates with the sex so often because most are not getting sex regularly. So, we are like hungry wolves. Women can get sex whenever.
Again, let’s assume that we can get sex whenever, though I doubt this. I suppose I could, at a bar, just say, hey any takers and I might find someone willing (and someone that perhaps I wasn’t attracted to). I’ve been turned down for various reasons in the past, my girlfriends have been as well. We can’t get GOOD sex whenever. And for many women, this is the key difference. We are hungry too. Just not for laying there and not having a mutually satisfying time. I suppose if the mechanics worked such that it took 6-15 minutes of thrusting… Read more »
Exactly, Sarah, very well put.
And @Terence, your assumption is wrong, at least in my case….(about women who feel like this have already engaged in a lot of casual sex).
I think there’s a bit of a leap here. Totally understandable, considering the wide-ranging stereotypes about men, which have plenty of anecdotal supporting evidence of course. Asking you out for a movie and dinner at your place or his means he wants some immediate, casual sex? (I don’t think casual sex is wrong, by the way. It sounds like it’s not what you’re looking for, and that’s totally great, too.) What I’m hearing you say is that you want more other fun-centered activities, more diverse things to do with each other out in the world, and a movie-dinner-sex date isn’t… Read more »
I suppose there is always the concern that once if have sex with a guy right away, he will just see you as a booty call, only be interested in sex from that point on, and eventually dump you for someone else. I’m not saying it’s always a valid fear, but it is a fear. I think when people say “he won’t respect you” they usually mean “he won’t care about you or see you as someone worthy of having an actual relationship with”. If a woman is fine with casual hookups then no problemo, but if she’s hoping to… Read more »
Sara, your concern is real: some men think like that. OTOH: – Life is a risky business 😉 Just because there’s some risk involved, that doesn’t mean it’s better avoiding it. – IMHO, that kind of men are dumb: they want sex but they disdain the girl giving it? 😯 It’s like someone eating an hot-dog and hating the vendor: it’s insane. Hence, I would be only happy getting rid of them; they’re scum. – Even waiting for sex, doesn’t give you any real garantee: after 10 dates waiting, the guy could still be a nice guy, a dumb one,… Read more »
Is it bad to desire someone just for casual sex and not dating? There are people I’d have casual sex with but wouldn’t want to date (different stage of life, eg, they have kids and I’d rather start from scratch). Doesn’t mean I don’t respect them, but if they want to be FWB then I’d consider it but probably wouldn’t want more.
That’s fine as long as you are up front about the fact that you would never consider her as a romantic partner and are only interested in her for sex. Just to be clear, I’m not saying there is anything wrong with casual sex. There are plenty of women who like to play around. But it’s not fair for either party to pretend to want something they don’t. Personally I don’t think there is anything wrong with a woman wanting to wait for awhile before having sex, if she’s looking for something more than casual sex. If nothing else, it… Read more »
There is nothing wrong with only wanting casual sex as long as you make it clear up front that that’s all you want. It’s when people hide their real motives that feelings get hurt. Sometimes it works the other way — women pretend they are okay with casual sex while all the time, they are thinking it will lead to something else. Personally also I don’t think there is anything wrong with a woman wanting to wait awhile before she sleeps with a guy. Maybe she doesn’t enjoy sex unless she has really gotten to know the guy first. Maybe… Read more »
Just to clarify, would you say women who want to wait should also clarify it upfront so men who don’t want to wait don’t “waste” time? (or men who make women wait, or same genders, etc)
I think it is a good idea to have that conversation at some point. It’s a little awkward n the first date perhaps, but if one person tries to initiate sex, the other person (often, but not always the woman) should explain that she would like to spend more time (e.g. several dates) getting to know each other first. In my experience, this has led to one of two outcomes: (1) the date ends and the guy never calls again (in which case, good riddance!) or (2) the guy is cool about it and wants to make plans for another… Read more »
@Sarah Radford “In my experience, this has led to one of two outcomes: (1) the date ends and the guy never calls again (in which case, good riddance!) or (2) the guy is cool about it and wants to make plans for another date (in which case, awesome, he really likes me!)” Why good riddance? It does not mean he does not like you. You don’t have to like someone to have sex with them. I do. But a lot of people do not. Why look at women and booty calls (nearly always initiated by the woman). Does she really… Read more »
Good riddance because if he never calls again after I tell him I want to wait a liitle bit before we have sex, then he obviously did not see me as someone worth getting to know, instead, he wanted sex. Which is fine. If he never calls, I’m not wasting my time on him, so that’s a good thing. In my current relationship, we didn’t have sex until we’d been seriously dating for almost 2 months. I know that sounds shocking to people. We’ve been together 3 years now, and we have a great sex life. Again, sorry to keep… Read more »
@Sarah Radford
“I’ve always had the vague idea that many men (not all) quickly put women they date into 1 of 2 categories: casual sex partner or potential girlfriend.”
Women do the same Sarah! Friend zone or f**k zone. Once a man is friend zoned, he is always unless she becomes desperate.
@wellokaythen I appreciate your extremely respectful comment and understanding. I agree, if a man tries to do the at-home date, I don’t need to (and I wouldn’t) write him off right away. I would tell him, as I did in these instances, that I’m not comfortable with that, and we can try to come up with something else together. At the end of your comment, you asked “where is this assumption coming from?”….I think it’s because that’s the “vibe” I get from certain men. I feel like you can tell when a man is just focused on getting you into… Read more »
Yep, I’m sure I have some limiting beliefs and programming that need to be dealt with. As I think most people do, to live more freely and truly from the heart 🙂
Question for the guys out there: seems like the consensus from the men in these comments is that you want sex earlier in a relationship rather than later. If not the first date, then certainy by the 3rd or 4th date. But if a woman is dating a lot, that means she’s going to have sex with a lot of guys. If we make a conservative estimate, that could be 2-4 guys a year, and could be much higher. Are you all okay with that? I mean, what if you finally meet “the one” and she’s 28 and in the… Read more »
“you want sex earlier in a relationship rather than later” To me, the sooner the better. 🙂 I can wait, I did, but that didn’t necessarily lead to better relationships. I had wonderful relationships where we had sex the first date, and lousy ones where we waited. There’s no rule, it depends on the people involved, not the waiting. “But if a woman is dating a lot, that means she’s going to have sex with a lot of guys. […] Are you all okay with that?” I am. Specifically, the more experience she has, the better. Of course more experience… Read more »
@Valter: you’re harping about me having prejudices and look at you being prejudiced, too… ” a virgin likely makes a lousy lover”….a prejudice is a prejudice, man. And bottom line is we all have programming, conditioning, stereotypes, etc.
And I don’t think that necessarily would have to be true….the more experience she has the better. A virgin could be just as good in bed because she’s passionate, confident, comfortable in her own skin.
“@Valter: you’re harping about me having prejudices” Not for having them (anybody does), but for following them (and for writing an article revolving around them). And here I was answering to Sarah, not you. A different question, and context. “a prejudice is a prejudice, man” Mine was kind of a joke. And I said “likely”, not “always”. Besides, it’s based on common sense: would you choose a young, unexperienced surgeon just because he’s “passionate, confident, comfortable in her own skin”? No? I’m not surprised. 😉 “A virgin could be just as good in bed” Yeah, sure. I heard lots of… Read more »
Only concern I have with multiple sex partners is STI risk, so I might want to get us both tested, if it’s all clear then it sounds fine. I’m more concerned with purposely putting a number on how many dates to wait, I feel that going with the flow is probably a better idea. Once both partners are comfortable then have sex and enjoy it, hopefully safe sex.
We kind of expect that and going by most women I know 2-4 men a year -is- average. What is the alternative? None of us are waiting till marriage and that 2-4 is for a fairly conservative woman.
As long has she has a good attitude, no STIs, and no children. There are no problems.
Mind you I explicitly -don’t- ask what a girl’s “number”… it just causes trouble.
@sarah….Yes, it is certainly a problem. You see there is so much confusion in America around this sex and dating thing. It is all caused by a lack of openness and honesty. Women hold the power with sex and dating. We men have to granted access so to speak. Women can pick and choose whom they wish to date and have sex. Unless you are in that 10%-20% of uber attractive men, get in line. Better yet, pray! Most women find FEW men attractive and likable. However most men, who are heterosexual, find MOST women sexually attractive. Guys, be honest!… Read more »
Thank you for bringing that point up, Sarah. I thought about that too. Recently it was said that if a woman has had sex with more than 5 people, she’s ‘promiscuous.’ In today’s dating world, chances are that unless you marry young (and that’s not really advisable if you’re trying to get through college, grad, etc. plus, you’re constantly surrounded by dating options and possibly, hook-up culture), you’ll date a decent amount of people. Unless you’re lucky to find someone perfect for you in those first 4, do you just give up and stop at 5? You want sex early,… Read more »
@Aya: “I do disagree that people can’t learn about each others’ bodies and get better within the relationship if they are compatible.” I never said that. 😯 Of course we can always learn and evolve. Maybe I didn’t express myself clearly. I was saying (talking about “numbers”), that I favour experienced women, and I think that “virgin” (or inexperienced) people are more LIKELY to be disappointing. (and you just confirmed my point: “… the first several times were just awful and awkward and scary”. That’s what OFTEN happens) My point was bashing the “number” shaming: I (and many smart men,… Read more »
“He’s interested in one thing and that’s getting into my pants.” “I want people in my life, whether it will be just a friendship or develop into something more, who want to spend time with me because of who I am, not because they’re hoping to get something (like an orgasm) from me.” The problem is you, and how you view what men want. You view men who want sex early as only wanting one thing, why? There are plenty of men who’d have sex on the first date and if everything went well they’d continue dating the woman, fall… Read more »
The author sounds entitled and demanding. Her attitude screams “Me, me, ME!”. Such high-maintenance people are often disappointing partners, focused on getting way more than giving. Plus, a “Love & Sex” Editor who still keep on this old meme about “men only want one thing”…? Please. Lastly, what’s wrong with a dinner or movie at home? I love it. It’s cosy, relaxed and intimate. And it doesn’t necessarily involve sex; it can be just two people enjoying a dinner or cuddling on the couch. If you need to be entertained all the time, then date a comedian. 😛 Oh, and… Read more »
Another ouch….lol. I agree, a dinner or movie at home can be amazing and it doesn’t have to involve sex. But see, then we’re also programmed to believe that if you go to a man’s house, or invite him to yours, that means one thing….you’re ready for sex. So then, I don’t want to give the man “the wrong impression”…..yada yada yada. It’s a conundrum really. See I can enjoy just a man’s company, or just kisses, or just whatever, but it seems like for men, if it doesn’t lead to sex, they’re all disappointed and now you (the woman)… Read more »
@Katarina: “we’re also programmed to believe that if you go to a man’s house, or invite him to yours, that means one thing….you’re ready for sex” That’s a prejudice. Do you follow prejudices? I thought you were smarter than that… 😉 The solution is simple: honest communication (instead of mind-reading). A simple “Listen, I’d love dining at home with you, but I’m not read for sex yet – in case that was your expectation”, would set your course straight (instead of playing “hide-and-seek”). Not doing that, you’re falling into another prejudice: “Men are always eager to have sex” (and that,… Read more »
Yes, of course, honest communication is always the best way, but some people aren’t mature enough to handle that. Some men, if a woman were to say what you suggest, would get offended and call the woman presumptuous. Which is fine, I can just focus on attracting mature men then who are able to handle open and direct communication.
@Katarina: “some people aren’t mature enough to handle that” Is that reason enough to withhold honest communication, thus being misleading and/or manipulative? Sounds like an alibi to me. Then you say you can focus on men able to handle honest communication. Good for you, but… what was the initial problem about dating at home, then? It seems to me your piece was mostly a narcissistic rant about men not dating in the way that most suits you; kind of “What’s wrong with men not making me happy?!?” (oh, that’s big news! 😉 ). Then, as we commenters keep on finding… Read more »
I agree with Valter ont his one. The problem too is some women just want male attention, period. So, if they are honest and open as Valter suggests, they know many men might go in a different direction. It does not mean the man is immature. It might mean he knows what he is seeking and you (the woman) isn’t it. I don’t like to waste time with this sort of thing. I am direct and to the point. Yes, if you are in my house and we are kissing, making out……I expect to get laid. It’s just that simple… Read more »
I did not like this article at all. I feel the author really thinks she’s the star of the show and men have to work for her attention. She will withhold sex now and she will withhold it when she is married. My mother was the same and it led to one unhappy marriage and inevitable divorce. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have sex with someone. As a woman who thinks sexual chemistry is very important I would say, fuck now not later. A few times I have gotten to know men over quite a few dates which… Read more »
I have to agree with you. Kikik Also, I find the portrayal of sex as something men want and women withhold – a commodity to be bargained away for other things – to be offensive. As if women somehow suffer through it, in order to get something else in return – love, financial security, an ego boost. I also find the assumption that having good sex is a burden placed on men to be unfair. Why? Because they have penises? The responsibility to give and receive pleasure is a mutual one. Women don’t have a right to just lie there… Read more »
@remttance girl
“I’ve always found that being blunt and honest about what you are after is good practice.”
Me too!
I want to give you a high 5, especially for the “At the core of this discussion is the issue of women taking responsibility for their own pleasure, and of men not being so satisfied with just any sex at all. And by both parties having a more sedate and realistic view of what sex is. ” parts.
You rock, high 5.
@Kiki
Thanks for your simple honesty. Just wish more women would step up and do the same.
Women have sex with men who they find attractive and likable, period. Initially, the attractiveness is usually physical. However, it could be a man’s wallet too. It is whatever the woman says it is.
So, fellas if you are dating her for a month or so and no action, it’s time to move on my friends. If you are a high libido man, then it is very important to avoid low libido women…..There has to be a match or you are doomed.
Again, as I mentioned above, it’s not about withholding sex. It’s about whether or not it’s the natural progression for the 2 people involved.
Ok there is a bit of an issue here that seems to be ignored. If I’m looking for a romantic partner… I’m not looking for just a friend. Every guy here probably has a story similar ot the following: A guy meets a girl he can talk to who is attractive, exciting and seems interested in him. He teases out of her that that the attraction is mutual. (Either he asks her point blank or she sends very strong signals). However, she wants to get to know the guy better before getting more intimate. So they date for a few… Read more »
“The guy feels duped and even a friendship relationship is ruined.”
You’re right. He HAS been duped! A woman knows from hour one after meeting a man if she is going to sex him. Anyone or any woman who says otherwise is full of crap.
It does not take 5 months! I guarantee you during the 5 months she was more than likely sexing someone. Just not you.
I really do not get this lack of honesty by many women. If you’re not interested have enough class/decency to let the guy know.
True, usually I can sex someone within an hour of meeting them. Though that’s not always the case for particularly androgynous people.
(Yeah, I’m being a bit of a pill).
I disagree, it could take me far more than 4 dates to decide if I want to have sex with a guy.
Oh having sex…I thought he was talking about sexing (i.e. determining the sex of someone). 🙂
It could.
But let’s be honest. Most women can tell within a few hours or less. I am not saying she will have sex with him, like now. But, she know if he is someone she would have sex with.
@HeatherN…I think you need a nap:)-
I was just being snarky about the way you used the word “sexing.” Apologies. Also, no that’s not always true. Really. Seriously. Honest to goodness. I can’t always tell whether a person is someone I’ll have sex with or not. Sometimes the initial physical attraction isn’t there, but people become more attractive once I get to know them. I’ve developed a crush on someone I’ve known for years…never any sexual attraction before that, not even my physical type, so to speak…but after getting to know her for years I was suddenly attracted to her. Also, let’s be completely honest here,… Read more »
The things is, if you are looking for we are talking about enthusiastic consent… Then a lack of initial physical attraction is a no. One other point. If two people are just hanging around that isn’t starting the clock. The clock starts from a declaration of intent: asking someone out on a date,asking someone to go home with you, or telling someone you are attracted to them. (I say this because I might be hanging around with a girl as a friend for months but once I tell her how I feel things progress quickly. When we talk about when… Read more »
Terence said that “a woman knows within one hour of meeting a man,” whether she’s going to have sex with him. I’m saying, no that’s not always the case. There are plenty of times when I don’t know whether I’d have sex with someone until long after I’ve met them. I was replying to that rather than your initial comment. However, as for your initial comment…I’d say that: A. You most certainly can date friends. I’ve dated friends…it potentially makes being ‘just friends’ again impossible, but sometimes it’s worth it. B. True. C. Not true. Some women (or men) just… Read more »
I disagree, Terence. I have had experiences, one quite recently actually, where I didn’t find the guy that attractive from the start, but once we started to get to know each other…and as I mentioned above, he showed huge interest in me as a person….I ended up finding him extremely attractive. I still didn’t have sex with him, only because I knew it wasn’t going anywhere and I didn’t want to do that with someone it wasn’t going anywhere with….BUT we had some majorly intense make-out sessions that were pretty fun.
You just made Terence’s point. You weren’t initially attracted to the guy, and that never changed to the point that you changed your mind about having sex with him. Hopefully, you told this guy you knew it wasn’t going anywhere or leading to sex before engaging in these intense make-out sessions that you found so fun. Then your make-out sessions would be mutually agreed and understood to have limits. If you just led him on, though, keeping that “going nowhere” conclusion to yourself while he continued to get his hopes up (among other things), I think that would qualify as… Read more »
@Marcus, yes, in this particular situation I did make it clear to him that it wouldn’t lead to sex and he was ok with that. But now, what if a woman is honest like that, tells a man she enjoys all the other stuff, but that it won’t lead to sex….and if he still continues to do “the other stuff” hoping that it will lead to sex, hoping that he’ll be able to change her mind, isn’t that his own issue then? I mean should a woman not even go there with a man if she knows it won’t lead… Read more »
@Katarina: “what if a woman is honest like that, tells a man she enjoys all the other stuff, but that it won’t lead to sex….and if he still continues to do “the other stuff” hoping that it will lead to sex […]”? Well, then it’s HIS own delusion – and none of the woman’s problem. 😉 IMO, once you have spoken your truth, you’re no more responsible about other’s dreams or delusions. Of course, that’s true for all genders. It’s not complicated, as long as everybody is clear about their need and agendas (it gets complicated when people just hopes… Read more »
Does “other stuff” indicate oral/manual release? Are you defining sex as PIV?
“A woman knows from hour one after meeting a man if she is going to sex him. Anyone or any woman who says otherwise is full of crap.” How can it be crap when it’s PERSONALLY happened with me otherwise. First of all, in that first hour, maybe sex wasn’t on the forefront of the mind. You could have met for professional reasons or have your mind elsewhere. Maybe during that hour, you’re interested in someone else or are in another relationship so you don’t initially notice that person. Maybe he doesn’t come off as that attractive initially, but after… Read more »
@Aya: “How can it be crap when it’s PERSONALLY happened with me otherwise”
Well, on one hand you’re right: MANY things may happen, that change our sexual interest.
OTOH, I think the comment you mentioned, was referring to dating situations (the topic of the article): and, in those cases, usually (not always, but more often than not) the women decides early on when he’s “sex material” or not, when she feels attraction or not.
“Too few men really understand female sexuality. It’s far more complicated than male sexuality.” Probably because too few women understand their sexuality. In the US society is both fixated, fascinated and frustrated and fearful of sex and sexuality. Anything that is not understood because it is not explored or talked about openly and honestly is complicated. Here is a thought though the next time the original poster finds herself facing such a situation if it makes her uncomfortable or implies in her mind she is not comfortable with or ready for state that upfront and suggest an alternative a picnic… Read more »
Tick, tock, tick, tock.
I can understand the need to vent and that may be why she is coming off so strong about the guys she’s had experience with. But that being said: Is that all you have to offer, men? I believe you can do better than that. And more importantly, for me, I want better than that for myself. I do have a bit of a problem with this part here. It seems to imply that since those guys are interested in sex they are somehow “not as good” as men who don’t so such interest. Having an interest in sex doesn’t… Read more »
I stand corrected. Point taken, Danny.
I was expecting an article about waiting until things are “right” (how does one determine that?) before sleeping together. Yes, casual sex can be ok, but if a person wants a relationship, I think it’s best to wait. In my case, being a highly sexual person who is about to start dating again (as well as a woman of a certain age!) I have decided NOT to go to bed with anyone until we’ve been out or hung out 10 times. Yes, it’s an arbitrary number. Why, you ask? Because my sexuality tends to then be the focus of the… Read more »
Well you could end up finding out on the 10th date that sex is terrible with the new partner, a few months may have passed. Could also lose a decent guy who just doesn’t wait to wait for 10 dates. Some people have an arbitary number on how many dates to go on before it has to lead somewhere, 10 dates would start to push it for me bigtime I think. That’s a lot of time to go through without reaching the next step. Just hope you are aware of this, personally I’d ignore the whole x number of dates… Read more »
That’s been my experience, as well, Alexa. That if the physical happens too soon, before a connection on other levels has been made, then it becomes the focus and you’re sort of blinded by the sex. And if you’re looking for a committed relationship, this could be bad because now you’re with someone you might not even be compatible with on other levels.
Remittance Girl is 100% right on the mark!