Joanna Schroeder believes that stories matter, but without analysis, the conversation is stunted.
I put myself through UCLA in my 20s, working at a very hip boutique in Los Angeles. Robertson Boulevard, where the store was located, was lined with other hip, young boutiques. And inside every single one of those stores was a staff of beautiful salespeople.
We were good at our jobs, wooing trust-fund daughters and starlets with a well-honed mix of admiration and detachment. This was the time before the housing bubble burst and everyone was spending. Nobody who came into shop dropped less than a few hundred bucks, and $10,000 sales to a single customer weren’t all that rare. It was a great job for a starving student.
When I moved from the women’s store to our company’s men’s store, that special mix of admiration required a little tweaking. What was once, “You’re so cool, we’re best friends” with a female client went to “You’re so cool, I’m your girlfriend for the duration of the time you’re in this store” with the guys. I’m not saying we sold sex, I’m saying that sex helped sell clothes. No touching, just that special gleam in the eye that was subtle enough to only register within the man subconsciously.
Miniskirts didn’t hurt, either.
But we were smart girls. Of the women I worked closely with, three now own successful businesses, a few are head designers in successful clothing companies, one is a journalist who now writes for WSJ and The New York Times—print edition. We never played dumb, but we kept it light.
Men were always surprised to learn, however, that I was putting myself through UCLA while selling clothes in these stores. There was the inevitable question, What’s your major? How they responded to my answer always told me a lot.
“Women’s Studies,” I’d say.
Inevitably, the majority of men were really curious about this. This is Los Angeles…Hollywood/Beverly Hills to be precise. Someone studying what I was must’ve seemed rare, and most men really opened up to me.
They wanted to know how to raise their daughters to be strong, and whether I had recommendations for books. They wanted to know how women’s issues had changed since their mothers’ era. They wanted to know how to help their wives deal with the motherhood/work balance. They had stories about friends who’d been raped, girlfriends who’d been molested, their own changing relationships with their daughters.
Suddenly, I was their trusted advisor, and what I learned about men from that experience is that the majority care a lot about women. Sure, most people like a pretty thing to look at—be it a man or a woman—but the vast majority want to be good men. And they wanted to be good men in relation to women.
They may not have named themselves Feminists, but they were definitely concerned about women’s issues. And I think an integral part of being a good man in today’s society is trying to help women gain equality, in understanding how to treat women with respect, and in wanting to raise daughters who are independent, who have strong sexual identities and autonomy, and who have equal opportunities at jobs and freedoms.
Tom Matlack, in his piece Why Being a Good Man is Not a Feminist Issue, suggests that feminism isn’t an integral part of the discussion about what it means to be a good man. He suggests that pieces like, “On Women’s Rights: Yeah, Yeah. Blah, Blah. Whatever” by Yashar Ali don’t have anything to do with being a good man.
I disagree. Strongly. Yashar Ali is a man who travels the path of trying to be a good man. He wants to be good to women, he wants to help women achieve equality. That’s what his piece was about. It wasn’t a piece for women. It was written by a man, for men, to implore them to understand that women have still not achieved equality in many areas. Yashar explains why it is important for men to work alongside women toward equality.
When Yashar says this, he isn’t diminishing the need for the issues in the men’s movement to be addressed, he’s merely addressing why women’s issues should matter to men. If you don’t have cancer, should you care about cancer? Because as a society we will fail if we do not have empathy toward one another.
Men talking about why feminism matters isn’t solely about women. It’s about men, too.
Feminism has a job to do. The women’s movement needs to look at the issues men face in the same way that the discussions around masculinity need to also look at women’s issues. We need to open our eyes to the ways in which masculinity is becoming a confusing and challenged state. I’m not saying men don’t still hold power positions. I’m saying, that’s going to rapidly change in the next 20 years and we need to be prepared and willing to examine things critically.
Primary parenting dads need support, male victims of abuse and sexual assault need resources and acceptance. We need more mentors for young men, we need to strongly examine the intersectionality of racism and gender discrimination and see how Black men are being marginalized at staggering rates. We need to look at the prison rape crises for what it is: institutionalized violations of human rights, heavily weighted toward men.
I learned it when I was a 23 year-old in high heels and miniskirts, and The Good Men Project has reinforced it for me: Most men care about women’s issues. To say that men who care about, and write about, issues relating to women don’t belong in a discussion about what it means to be a good man leaves a huge gap in that conversation. Part of our identity as humans and our “goodness” as men or women lies in how we regard one another and help one another along.
If Tom wants to turn The Good Men Project into a magazine solely dedicated to men telling their stories, I believe that would be beautiful. But that won’t be a project. That’ll be an ever-evolving anthology.
Beautiful stories do move people, but they don’t further discussion unless they are followed by analysis. And analysis often leads to discussion about gender roles, and talk of gender roles often leads to conversations revolving around feminism or men’s rights. To put an end to that is to stunt the conversation, and stunt the growth of our project.
Let’s hear men’s stories. They matter. Men need a place to be who they are: a man who built his father’s pine casket, a primary parent who sometimes struggles with self-esteem, a man who was born a girl but was married as a man. A tough guy who learned while serving in the Army that he is deathly afraid of needles, a photojournalist mourning the loss of his friend and colleague…
But let’s not limit the boundaries of what it is to be a good man to exclude discussions of men’s relationship with feminism or gender equality. After all, analysis and theory can help us better understand exactly why these stories matter.
—
Image of Words with Person on Blackboard courtesy of Shutterstock
Naw, I meant more like…there are certain topics that I see brought up by MRAs regularly, and not positively. Funny I see the same of feminists but oh well. I do not doubt people have called you an MRA simply because they’ve said stuff you disagree with. I seriously do not doubt that. Thank you for acknowledging this. I’ve grown rather tired of feminist after feminist just deciding that this does not happen. Usual reason, “I’ve never seen it happen so that means it doesn’t happen and you’re lying or misunderstood something.” I don’t know if those folks somehow got… Read more »
And I think an integral part of being a good man in today’s society is trying to help women gain equality(Joanna) What I find intriguing about this comment is that for me, if I am to believe it, then I must assume that a woman on her own is not capable of equality without the help of a male. What it tells me is that men are in control and must “give” up some of that control for equality because obviously this is what a good man will do. What it makes me feel is that because of the obvious… Read more »
“And I think an integral part of being a good man in today’s society is trying to help women gain equality(Joanna)” I’d say trying to help EVERYONE gain equality should be an integral part of being a good man or woman, not just helping women. But in order to help women gain equality with men, should men lobby for women to be included in selective service? Forced into conscription whenever it happens? Reduce the advocacy of female rape to better match the (lack) of coverage men get? Or do these women just want the positives men get without the negative?… Read more »
That’s definitely an interesting opinion you’ve got there (that everyone cares about women and no one cares about men). I’m going to have to disagree with you there and if you’ve gotten the message that I don’t care about men you’ve surely misunderstood everything I’ve stated and stand for. I believe I’ve made myself extremely clear.
We have stark differences in our ideological views. To each his or hers own.
Opinions are not all of equal value. My opinion is backed up with facts and I discovered it for myself in the face of opposition. Your opinion is dictated by popular ideology from a group that prevents any sort of criticism of its views.
Can you think of any example where as a society we care as much for men as women? for boys as we do for girls? I can easily give dozens of important illustrations of this. There’s also a fairly obvious socio-biological basis for it without getting to “just so”.
A funny for the Commie you David:
Comrade 1: “Tell me comrade, what is capitalism?”
Comrade 2: “The exploitation of man by man”
Comrade 1: “And what is Communism?”
Comrade 2: “The reverse.”
See…I care about men!
There is a great deal of evidence that the feminist movement cares only about girls and women, or at the very best cares far, far, far, more about girls and women than boys and men. Clear evidence of this is the difference in how it deals with perceived inequality. As just one example, the movement and its adherents have successfully made the “wage gap” a social and polical topic tens or hundreds of thousands of times, but the “education gap” somewhere around zero times. Hence, the evidence is clear that the feminist movement is in no way motivated and has… Read more »
I beg to differ Eric – there is a great struggle to overcome toxic masculinity. http://feministteacher.com/2011/03/29/teaching-boys-feminism/ More seriously though – the education gap is believed to date back to the early 90’s, and some of the better explanations point to the change of introducing literacy earlier on, and that young boys take longer to be structurally ready for its introduction, then fall behind, missing their optimal window for literacy development. This coupled with the societal meme that boys will somehow “catch up”, has resulted in the most significant portion of the education gap we see today. In the end, it’s… Read more »
But, of course. Masculinity is toxic. The cause of the education gap doesn’t matter. Nobody cares. Politicians can’t care. You can’t win an election if you show concern for boys or men. You would be called a woman-hater and misogynist. Your political career would be sabotaged and quickly overwith. The movement has tremendous political power. The incontrovertible evidence that the government doesn’t care about boys and men is that it has appropriated zero dollars and zero cents to achieve equality in education despite the government itself doing the reporting on the education gap. Think of this contrast. It has spent… Read more »
@ elissa Sometimes there is institutional bias against men in education. Other studies that examined gender discrimination in nursing school have found that men have faced gender bias in nursing school. The Association of Women, Obstetric, and National Nurses survey its’ male members and found that 42% of the respondents experienced gender bias from the faculty or nursing staff. It is important to note that these male nursing students reported that the bias did not come from the patients. Other studies examining the reasons men felt bias in nursing school found the lack of male models and mentors (Kaite, Kputa… Read more »
I agree John – timing is just the fix. The systemic bias comes about from the constructionist meme and belief that learning is fungible across sexes. The wrongness and/or wishful thinking of this approach has been guided by academics reared on equality via sameness: make little boys more like little girls and the world will be a happier place.
@ Eric M “There is a great deal of evidence that the feminist movement cares only about girls and women, or at the very best cares far, far, far, more about girls and women than boys and men.” I actually don’t have a problem with this. My problem is that in addition to this, they claim that they care as much or at least a significantly similar amount about men and boys. That is one way that feminism hurts men and boys. It tricks people who genuinely care about men and boys into thinking that their efforts will go towards… Read more »
I think this is such a huge misstep. We should be banning both and working together.
I’d like to see them both done away with as well. But as long as we see people that think violating a child’s bodily autonomy is a bad thing in only some cases it will be a hard road. So as it stands: Cutting girls is a universally bad thing no matter the reason and cutting boys is a bad thing but since it might help with stopping HIV transmittal in the future, it’s important for him to look like his father (and no it’s not always the father saying that), it’s important for him to look normal to the… Read more »
Sewing up the vagina would probably reduce HIV rates, but it still is barbaric as hell and isn’t acceptable. MGC’s HIV benefits are actually quite small apparently, I’d say the risk from surgery is worse than the benefit difference from reducing HIV for MGC. Why is any unnecessary removal of tissue from the body acceptable? The only times it is acceptable is for adults who can consent, or to prevent future complications such as phimosis for the few that have a higher chance. The majority shouldn’t be cut until they can decide for themselves with full consent. Over all the… Read more »
Well sure, men care about women. But that’s not a good thing; that’s a bad thing. It’s a bad thing that men only care about women, and hardly ever about other men. I’m not saying this is unique to men btw; women don’t care about men either. Everyone cares about women and nobody cares about men. That’s the problem. I don’t know how anyone would go about defining “good” for themselves exactly, but it seems like to begin with you have an internal aspect of what is good, which doesn’t depend on anything outside you. A sort of alone on… Read more »
As for the Toysoldier link, anyone who goes back to the original conversation he was writing about will realize that he is completely misrepresenting it. Futrelle, I normally do not comment on petty attacks like the one above, but for the sake of clarity, anyone who reads my post would see that I quoted and linked back to the original comments on your site. Unless you are accusing me of editing the quotes, the simple fact is that some of your commenters accuse male survivors of lying about their abuse when those male survivors disagree with them or say something… Read more »
@Kaleb, you seem pretty cluey on feminism. Is there more of a shift towards kyriarchy vs patriarchy these days? Why do some feminists use patriarchy yet others use kyriarchy?
@Archy,
That’s actually a great question, you should totally do some research on that. I think I’ll stick to the topic at hand.
I am, hence why I asked 😛
If any feminist wants to write an article on it I’ll gladly read. From what I see and even my own personal view, kyriarchy gets more acceptance from men here I think. I think the power of wealth is absolutely immense and it’s one of the most common arguments I see about patriarchy, the poor vs rich man debate.
What know of it still ignores certain factors. But it’s not all “blamey” like patriarchy theory is.
I can tell you from a little bit of reading at least some of the ones that use patriarchy want to make sure the problems are labeled as male. Like they think that the word kyriarchy somehow absolves men of responsibility or something like by way of not naming the problem something male.
Me personally I’d be fine with calling it “The System”.
If the price of correcting gender disparity was not blaming the disparity on a particular gender, I’ve often wondered if feminists would prefer the problems not be corrected.
@ kaleb I have No reason to doubt your honesty & open mindedness Sir all I am asking you & anybody who thinks that the all the men on this site & sites like it are bunch angry sexist men is to take a deeper look at what our grievances are when it comes to the Ideology of feminism, we are not all just angry men blinded by whatever you call loss of male privilege after all most of us have sister’s,mother’s, Aunts, niece’s, wife’s, girlfriends, ..etc, whom most of us wouldn’t like them to be treated any different then… Read more »
@Not Buying It And I really do thank you for acknowledging my open mindedness and honesty because that’s what I’m about. But I have a problem with you lumping me into this category of “you & anybody who thinks that all the men on this site & sites like it are a bunch of angry sexist men” while asking me to taker a deeper look, etc. I have a problem with that because while I never stated or implied that all me on this site are a bunch of angry sexist men, you’re painting me out to be such a… Read more »
So why do so many people seem to disagree with me simply because I’ve ID’d a feminist? It’s not like that’s ALL of who I am nor am I imposing it on anyone–just sharing how it positively affected my development as a man. Kaleb, I do not think being a feminist is all there is to you, however, most of your comments have been about feminism and as far as I have seen on this thread none of them have allowed for the possibility that feminism may have it wrong. You do not say that “rape culture” might exist, but… Read more »
Well said, Jacob. Feminism operates on a set of unproven assumptions–axioms–like many philosophies and political perspectives do. But those remain assumptions, not proven facts.
And many of those assmptions–such as “patriarchy” and “rape culture”–are too often treated as indisputable truths that cannot and must not be questioned, which hinders meaningful discussion.
To me it’s not so much as whether the tenants are proven or not. Like (I think) Jacob is saying there’s seems to be some desire to inject feminism into any conversation about manhood and masculinity (sometimes even into the forefront of the conversation), whether it’s welcome or not. As if without it the conversation (and by extension manhood/masculinity) is doomed to fail. This is a pretty serious contrast to the times that feminists have pushed men out of conversations. Kinda like saying, “Oh you didn’t want me in your space but now that I have mine you want to… Read more »
@Kaleb ….. Sorry, I do see you as opposition to men. Maybe it’s because you see men and their issues through feminists eyes and not through the non-feminist male eyes. I’m more then likely at least a generation older then you and accordingly, I have no room in my life and mind for feminism. I’ve had it to here (pointing at my neck) with feminism. I guess one of the things that bothers me is that no matter what the issue is, someone is being told by a feminist to look at things through the eyes of a feminist. I… Read more »
“IMO the simple proof is the unwillingness to even give up the label if feminism in a time where there are alternative isms that better fit their beliefs” When one conflates feminism and equality as synonymous, interchangeable, it becomes difficult to give up. That tendency to equate those words as the same, and the tendency to inject hostile motives onto men to explain what is not immediately understood are the two tendencies of feminism I find most damaging… because they are so subtle that even the best intentioned feminist embraces them, yet so influential as to create entire debates about… Read more »
IMO the simple proof is the unwillingness to even give up the label if feminism in a time where there are alternative isms that better fit their beliefs. Well I wouldn’t say the unwillingness itself is proof. I’m all for folks deciding that their belief fit best with the feminist label. As Mark says the problem is when it gets to the point where it becomes an insistence that if the feminist lens is not in the conversation then the conversation is inherently damaging. Thankfully most of the ones here are not making that insistence but damned if it’s that… Read more »
@Jacobtk – that was a very productive response. The reason I don’t leave room for feminism to be “wrong” (for lack of a better word) is because I so strongly believe it’s “right”, and for the sake of this article, I have to build tight arguments that answer “Why Feminism Belongs at the GMP”. I am TOTALLY open to alternative ideologies through which we can examine masculinity–but I have yet to see anyone provide that, and that may be because this article is specifically about feminism. You asked a really good question: “I doubt that everyone who writes articles or… Read more »
@Kaleb and @jacobtk First I want to say that Jacobtk has been a valuable member of our community for quite some time, and Kaleb, as you mentioned, has just joined in, so I am really encouraged by both of your ability to reach some common ground. Second — I agree! — Jacobtk’s comment above was really insightful. I want to jump in for a moment to address it. 1) There aren’t many ideologies that look at just men. There’s the MRA’s, but they tend to be anti-feminist. So when viewed through that lens, feminism keeps coming up. 2) As Kaleb… Read more »
Lisa: — We have many many posts which are pure storytelling. Men who are talking about a defining moment, a glimpse of their experience as a male, a moment when themselves as a man can be examined. Those are among my favorite posts. But those don’t get “examined” or argued over, or talked about the same way other posts do. They just are, and they tell a story, both personal and political. I personally like these posts too. Namely I like them because they are stories of men who are trying to speak up in a world that does not… Read more »
Wow, Lisa! What great feedback.
I want to take a moment, Jacob, to say that I really appreciate your response to my comment. I think it was very insightful. And although think we can agree to disagree on some things, we can at least agree on a broader question more applicable to GMP: Where are all the other ideologies? I think the apparent lack of other ideologies is the result of the headstart that feminism has on other ideologies. It’s been around for a very long time and is thus very prevalent in many places. Not a judgement of good, bad, or otherwise, just widespread.… Read more »
Exactly. Some of the most prominent advocates for men’s rights were (and still are) feminists, hated by the feminist movement. Warren Farrell And Christina Hoff Somers both still identify as feminists, even though they are labeled anti-feminists. Erin Pizzey started out a feminist, though she actually IS an anti-feminist and with good reason, IMHO).
Are you sure Christina Hoff Somers identifies as a feminist? The last time I asked her she was very iffy about it and basically said she avoided that sort of label because at the best it tended to not be productive. But that was over ten years ago. If she changed her mind I think that would be interesting.
I know it’s not much to go on, but Wiki’s Bio on her uses “equity feminist” as an occupation behind Author. I’m sure I’ve also seen an interview of her on youtube that included Author/Feminist to describe her, though I can’t find it. Might of been one of her comments on Politically incorrect (from 2007, so not that recent ether)
Well, according to this seminar, at the very least, she WAS a feminist (whether she still identifies or not, I don’t know for certain), so my point still stands.
“The reason I don’t leave room for feminism to be “wrong” (for lack of a better word) is because I so strongly believe it’s “right”, and for the sake of this article, ” Kaleb, there you have it. You label it as a belief, and offer no logical or factual basis. That isi why it is both unconvincing to others and also why it is unable to explain reality. You might be equally convinced that the world every species of living creature in it came inot existence in six days, but you could hardly expect your views to be taken… Read more »
“The reason I don’t leave room for feminism to be “wrong” (for lack of a better word) is because I so strongly believe it’s “right”, ” Kaleb, that is belif, its not knowledge. Yours its pure faith and that leads to bias and misconception and some times even pure fantasy, common between belivers (christians, flat earth society, creationism, aliens nazis, commies ect) would you not prefer to KNOW that feminism is the best tool outhere? if you want to know, the best way its to question the movement: theories, tenets and so on. Belivers tend to exclude all the contradiction… Read more »
@Kaleb: The reason I don’t leave room for feminism to be “wrong” (for lack of a better word) is because I so strongly believe it’s “right”… There is nothing wrong with having strong beliefs, however, those beliefs can become a problem in discussions about broad issues like masculinity because everyone does not share those beliefs. Think of it this way: let us say this was a site for discussing morality. Chances are many people joining in will be Christian, so there is a good chance that religion, particularly variants of Christianity, will come up in the discussion. However, if Christians… Read more »
I’d be happy to give the communist point of view more often but when I did it was usually picked up by some capitalist and then I thought, well, this is going to get way off topic very fast isn’t it?
@ Kaleb I’m not sure if feminism is even relevant anymore. Over the past two years I’ve grown with the people in my master’s class. If you asked people to label themselves at the beginning of the program, I’m sure feminist, liberal, or progressive would be selected by over 90% of the class. 1 or 2 guys would have identified as conservative. I’m certain none would be MRA. As we went through our journey, I started to identify as MRA and brought up many issues affecting men most notably the gender gap in education. It was initially met with derision.… Read more »
@Kaleb Sorry , Sir I am using a so called smart phone with a small screen & it has a prompt rewrite annoying function in it, anyway what I was trying to say is : The proof is in the putting Sir, Every available solid stat whether its state or federal, shows decimal numbers when it comes to the average male Sir including stats from think tanks universities..etc , meaning these stats are not considered politically biased, that’s reality , that is something all of us men & women can not put a spin on it with any ideology you… Read more »
@Kaleb
The proof is in the putting Sir, every solid stats whether it’s state, federal or solid reputed private entities show decimal numbers when it comes to the average male Sir !!!! That’s reality, that’s something any of us men & women can look it, no spin or ideology to it.
@Not Buying It
The proof is in the what? “Every solid stats whether it’s state…”? Show decimal numbers proving what regarding the average male?
You spent a comment explaining or proving nothing. I literally do nut understand what you are saying and I think it has a little to do with your grammar.
It’s the not GMP that the majority of men have a problem with it is this constant verbal push to look at feminism as something positive & good for men when every thing around us in our own realities as men says otherwise, it’s like being pissed on & being told it’s raining & its good for you guys, Yah right I bet if most men don’t have some sort of sensitivity training or few feminist 101 classes. At some time in our lifes we will always be deficient some how.
@Not Buying It It’s interesting to me that you’re speaking as if for every man. I am a men with a masculinity of equal validity as yours. I completely disagree that there is NOTHING that feminism has to offer–my critical consciousness is a testament of that. No one’s pissing on anyone from my end. I’ve done my research, I’ve read up, written, discussed, watched, led, followed–done everything to come to a confident conclusion that men and feminism do exist together. “At some time in our lifes we will always be deficient some how.”–Won’t we all? I didn’t realize we all… Read more »
@ kaleb
I don’t know if you noticed in my comment I that I said (most & majority) of men on this site , never said I spoke for every man, since I think you know that from all the responses from the majority of men on this comments thread it is really disingenuous on your part to say I speak for all the men although I can assure you a fair number would agree with me.
Ma oh ma, it seems this ideology called feminism & its adherents can not see men in general being able to be to be equality & justice centered unless it is base somehow on feminism it is as if men have absolutely no empathy for the women without paying homage to it! !
@Not buying it
I think you’re wrong. I am an “adherent”–as you put–to feminism and I am a man who believes men are generally capable of being equality & justice centered. When it comes to gender, it looks a LOT like feminism–but who am I to force labels on someone? That’s not what I’m here to do. It’s odd to me that so many men are talking about gender equality, sharing narratives, examining power, etc., and the second someone says “Hey that looks a lot like Feminism,” that person is suddenly oppositional to GMP. That’s not what it’s about.
That’s not what I’m here to do. It’s odd to me that so many men are talking about gender equality, sharing narratives, examining power, etc., and the second someone says “Hey that looks a lot like Feminism,” that person is suddenly oppositional to GMP. That’s not what it’s about.
The same reason anyone who has a bad experience with someone or something and become apprehensive, hesitant, or aggressive towards it/them in future encounters.
Is it a line, or is it an agreement with one side of an argument, and in other cases it might be the other side. It’s not a war if she agrees with someone you don’t agree with, is it?
It should not inherently be a war if she agrees with someone I disagree with Julie but depending on what the topic is, I suppose it could (and sometimes the war might be justified). Ideally it would never be a war, just disagreement.
But sometimes I don’t know Julie…I just don’t know….
I don’t want to discredit anyones value regarding patriarchy theories. Whether we agree that patriarchy exists (in any sense) the fact of the matter lies within this realm of hypermasculinity in which we are all subjected to–for the purpose of this site, men especially (but women too). This needs to be a space where we can discuss this and for the most part, this has been. We are all affected by the ways in which society, mainstream media, sports culture, etc., tell men to behave. Whether or not people subscribe to feminism is moot–some of us do, some of us… Read more »
“But feminism has allowed many men to explore the ways in which patriarchy (as a theory, for the sake of this argument) has shaped our male experience” I doubt that many men know a lot about theory; even less men will be willing to apply feminism to their experience. As far as I know most men do not see feminism as beneficiary to them as men (maybe beneficiary to the women in their lives but not them directly) “It’s simple: make the most with what feminism has to offer and apply it to some new male-specific narrative” Many men do… Read more »
@Alberich I think that it’s great that you are thinking of other lenses through which we can analyze our lives. I admit, when it comes to gender I proudly bear feminism on my chest. I think it’s extremely unfortunate that many men do not think feminism has anything to offer men–in it’s very essence lies gender liberation. I think a lot of men in these postings feel threatened by feminism, like it’s polarizing and oppositional, and that’s just not the case. Feminism examines gender and power and that is something we can ALL find useful. I don’t expect everyone to… Read more »
@Kaleb “I think it’s extremely unfortunate that many men do not think feminism has anything to offer men–in it’s very essence lies gender liberation.” And I think it is fortunate that grown people can make up their own minds about what can offer them something and what is useless to them. “Feminism examines gender and power and that is something we can ALL find useful.” More or less useful, that is. 1. Most of my failings as a man have nothing to do with gender relations or images. It is rather that I am to lazy, or to weak, I… Read more »
@Alberich Of course it’s a great thing that grown people can make their decisions as to what they find useful–I’d hope so. However, in this particular context we are analyzing the use of feminism on GMP; that is what this article is about. My only argument is that GMP and men can and do benefit from feminism–take it or leave it. When I see men on GMP oppose feminism I do not take it as thy are opposing an ideology that men and women should be equal–I think we’re all on that same page. My argument here is that this… Read more »
“If men are against these terms lke “patriarchy” “privilege” and “rape culture”, we are denying the very obstacles that women an men horribly face today. How can we truly relate to each other if we don’t validate these concepts? How are we ever going to better ourselves as men if we are not listening to women and other men when it comes to stuff like this. “ You are presuming, that the concepts like “patriarchy” describe reality; but those men disagree with this presumption. Here an application of this logic. Let us replace “patriarchy” with the (ridiculous) term “feminazi”. How… Read more »
@Alberich I have a fundamentally different view on gender equality than you. I’m not selling patriarchy to you, that’s not my job. My job is to be there for men and women who are marginalized and make sure I am constantly checking my male privilege–yes, privilege (as in “I have the privilege of not having put my career on hold to bear children.” or “I have the privilege not to care about rape culture because it doesn’t effect men in nearly the same magnitude as it does women.”). As a “Good Man” I can’t dismiss the way men and women… Read more »
Kaleb, thank you for your responses. “Whether or not you believe that patriarchy exist, it is something that so many people can identify as something that negatively affects them on a daily basis. Good Men don’t dismiss that.” Here exactly lies our disagreement. There are people in Europe who identify the so called “Islamisation” of their countries, as something that negatively affects them on a daily basis. Some time ago many people in Europe believed that there was a so called “Jewish concpiracy”, that negatively affected their lives. Examples like these made me very sceptical of the logic you propose… Read more »
Alberich: When men here oppose feminism, I think they usually do not oppose the idea that men and women are equal, or that sometimes women are discriminated against because of their gender, but ideas like “patriarchy”, “privilege” or “rape culture”. I’ll be more specific than that. It’s not even the ideas themselves it’s how the ideas are applied It’s one thing to talk about the way in men are favored over women. It’s quite another to use those ways to shut out conversation about the ways in which women are favored over men. It’s one thing to talk about how… Read more »
I dont know what’s going on here–either you’re completely misunderstanding what I’m saying or I don’t understand you. I don’t see a problem with men understanding that within the context of gender–we’re the privileged ones. As men, statistically, rape culture is far less of a threat to us than for women. That being said, who are we to discount that very real danger that some men, but more women, face by saying “I’m opposed to ‘ideas’ like ‘rape culture’…” It’s male privilege we have that enables us not to have to confront, or believe in “ideas” like rape culture. I… Read more »
“I don’t see a problem with men understanding that within the context of gender–we’re the privileged ones.” This statement could be wrong. Hypothetically: How would you test the statement: “Dominique has male privilege.” and when would you regard it as falsified? “That being said, who are we to discount that very real danger that some men, but more women, face by saying “I’m opposed to ‘ideas’ like ‘rape culture’…” It’s male privilege we have that enables us not to have to confront, or believe in “ideas” like rape culture. I don’t see where I’m wrong here. “ I assume the… Read more »
I don’t see a problem with men understanding that within the context of gender–we’re the privileged ones. The problem isn’t a matter of not acknowledging privilege. The problem is the blanket presumption that in the realm of gender men have the privilege and women have none. It’s not that one sided. As far as your last point goes. I’m sorry that some people have felt “burned” by the feminist lens but im not sure I’ve seen how…not to mention, as a man, I’m feeling like I’m being set up as some male-bashing feminist when in reality I’m just a guy… Read more »
I was following this conversation very closely and I think I’ve noticed a few issues which Danny touched on but I think need to be said again: 1. Feminism is a movement by and for women. Let’s be real. It isn’t about men and has never been about men. Any benefits men have gained because of Feminism have been ancillary, carrots used in lieu of sticks. Honestly, I’ve done a fair amount of research and have yet to find ONE thing that Feminism has done specifically for men. That said, I am a profeminist (meaning I’m not a Feminist but… Read more »
I apologise for the remark above ; I didn’t see you were just replying to someone else about “rape”.
Sorry.
“I’ll be more specific than that. It’s not even the ideas themselves it’s how the ideas are applied.”
Sometimes it is this and sometimes some people really disagree with the concepts. I for one do not see how the concept “privilege” is any useful; I can see how it can be harmful.
I don’t subscribe to the feminist interpretation of patriarchy, and patriarchy theory is the essence of feminist analysis. You don’t have to believe in patriarchy theory or be a feminist to have genuine concern for what happens to women. But the spaces for men to develop and present their own ideas and experiences are few and far between and I’m glad that the Good Men Project has undertaken to do so, even giving MRAs a platform to explain their ideas. Its time. Time for men to enter the gender debate on their own terms.
@ Lisa I would love too!
Great! Email me at [email protected] and we’ll get you set up.
I second that “great”! We’ve all become big fans of Kaleb Blake.
“Love your work David but the women on your site do get abusive in their own right.” MANY of the posters there are men, just so you know. The posters get abusive toward those they don’t like. If I felt there was a better way for David to handle it, I would email him a suggestion, but I haven’t because there’s really nothing to say. The posters there are smart enough to make sure they’re on track and should self police. Also, who knows if some consider appropriate mocking and challenging “abusive”? We never know unless we talk about specifics.… Read more »
@William – I agree as far as *some* society has a mistrust of a man’s voice. I would also argue that on do many occasions–especially in politics and pop culture–women’s voices have been the ones taken without trust (i.e. they’re labelled as “crazy” or “over emotional” which tends to take away feo What they’re saying). I have heard many times that a man’s place in feminism is on he side too, however, on more occasions, I’ve seen a need expressed by women in the feminist movement that men need to fill a dearth in feminism. There’s a lot of mixed… Read more »
Kaleb, we would love to have you write a post that elevates the discussion above the back and forth. I agree feminism shouldn’t be discounted, but it does seem as if there are a lot of conversations that aren’t productive — everyone is holding their ground and no one is listening. We need to figure out ways to talk about equality without getting mired in shouting matches over words.
Can you help us?
How did the stuff you tried just before I left work out? Mostly I think it was a change to moderation policy and setting up a couple of new folders for content?
Of course if you ever do figure out how to pull this off you’ll probably get the Nobel Peace prize.
Iindifferent, I’m not sure if you’ve been following the entire conversation so I’ll try to readdress your comment as best as I can, but your points have really been talked about quite a lot so far. 1. Many of the posters at Manboobz are men, correct. Many are also women. So I’m not sure how that changes anything. 2. You admit that the posters at Manboobz are abusive but seem to make light of this. How are they smart enough to stay on track OR self-police when clearly they aren’t smart enough to not be abusive in the first place… Read more »
The problem i see is that our society has become so distrusting of a man’s voice, that his stories will only be heard if they’re being told by a woman. I have a problem with the idea that Good Man = Feminist, You can support the equal treatment of both genders and not be a feminist. I’ve heard many MANY times that men shouldn’t have a voice when it comes to feminism, that they should support from the sideline only. I actually agree with this, no man knows what it’s like to live life as a woman and no woman… Read more »
@ Tom I don’t think Julie was “calling” you a feminist. She simply said you support women’s rights, like many of the male femininst (myself included) do. So we have a lot in common. On a personal note I’m a little offended (1) that you would tell Julie “real world” men is not how she sees it–it’s how men see it. That’s purely subjectivity and her womanhood does not discount that validity. I am a man, so is my view on “real world” men better than Julie’s? And how does my personal association with feminism discount my validity in seeing… Read more »
I have no idea what this is referring to.
(I get email notifications of the comments and I was responding to a comment from Tom B at 10:34am)
I think Tom B meant to reply to Joanna, it’s the comment I replied to above “June 29, 2012 at 9:36 am”.
It was a response that was obviously not allowed. Oh well ….yup, it was rude but it was what I felt. BTW, I am and will nver be a “feminist” in any way shape or form.
Tom, I think you believe we don’t hear you. I do. I don’t ever expect you to be anything but that you say you are. Can’t speak for heather but my guess is she doesn’t either and there may be some cross communication going in, don’t know. There is no force trying to make you be different, but I hope we. An still at least discuss and argue about things.
You have to be really special to be not heard. I’m a leading expert…
The problem, as I see it, is there isn’t even a choice as to whether or not feminism belongs at GMP. It’s here. Always has been….lol. I consider this site to be a feminist website featuring stories about men. It’s not as bad as some other feminist sites that either silence dissenting opinions through personal attacks or censorship, but it’s close with its commenting policies.
I pretty much agree. The individuals officially associated with the site have either declared themselves feminists or haven’t labeled themselves. I wish there was one individual officially affiliated with GMP who was also clearly in the MRM. That’s why when they wrote about the top ten MRA issues a while back, they had to take a poll. The commenting policy in practice is quite liberal, which is where the MRM point of view is heard on a consistent basis.
We’ve put out calls for moderators and such personally and otherwise and don’t get responses, currently there are more men than women mods. I’ve advocated for that actually thought it might put me out of a job.
@John Gottman … and the poll was with the GMP readers ….. When I saw the heading I was excited … when I read it, not so much…. very disappointing.
Again with the MRM’s?!?!? Who are they, where are they and who can I contact in Washington about who their lobbyists iare?
Tom, after considerably searching, I find there is NO men’s lobby in DC.
Woooooow…no men’s lobby? Funny that, when the vast majority of people in federal public office are men. There’s no white lobby either…but then that’s because the vast majority of people in federal public office are white too. Funny how there are GLBT lobbies but no straight lobby…I’m thinking it follows the same logic…the vast majority of people in federal public office are straight too. Men’s issues are important and need to be considered more than they are, yes. And certainly gender equality isn’t quite the same as ethnicity and sexual orientation equality because with gender there isn’t quite the clear-cut… Read more »
Woooooow…no men’s lobby? Funny that, when the vast majority of people in federal public office are men. But given how messed up things are for men today I think it’s worth saying that the fact that they are mostly does not translate into them working towards helping men. If anything there’s a good bit going on that actively goes against men. Men’s issues are important and need to be considered more than they are, yes. And certainly gender equality isn’t quite the same as ethnicity and sexual orientation equality because with gender there isn’t quite the clear-cut privileged vs non-privileged… Read more »
“How did you get from “there is no men’s lobby” to “women are privileged over men in government influence”? Seems like JAM was just saying that there is no men’s lobby. Which there isn’t.” I was saying one of the ways women are privileged isn’t with regards to government influence. Isn’t. You want a men’s lobby, go ahead and make one. That’s your right. But seriously, the vast majority of people in the federal government are, actually, doing what they think is best for men (insofar as they are doing what they think is best for anyone besides themselves)…because they… Read more »
I was saying one of the ways women are privileged isn’t with regards to government influence. Isn’t. I know you were saying it isn’t. I was asking was what warranted the mention. It didn’t seem like JAM was trying to say that a lack of a men’s lobby was proof that women were privileged in government representation. But seriously, the vast majority of people in the federal government are, actually, doing what they think is best for men (insofar as they are doing what they think is best for anyone besides themselves)…because they are men. No they aren’t. They are… Read more »
“No they aren’t. They are looking out for themselves, not men.”
Danny, I said “insofar as they are doing what they think is best for anyone besides themselves.” Yeah, no kidding they’re looking out for themselves. It’s politics. That’s what they do. But being men, it makes sense for them to think of other men next…or other straight people (if they’re straight), or other white people if they’re white, etc. It’s easiest to accurately understand what you think is best for people whose perspectives are the same as your own.
” it makes sense for them to think of other men next” No, you’d *think* that’s what happens, but it actually doesn’t. Because men are *disposable* to the men in power. They aren’t interested in uplifting us. They don’t identify with us. If it were relly the case that “men in government would help other men” why are women, not men, considered the important voting bloc? Why are “men’s issues” treated with such contempt? Why were 5500 men killed (or, allowed to die anyway) *just* to dig the panama canal? Seriously? If men in power gave a shit about men… Read more »
Heather, you explain why it is plausible that male politicians “think of other men next”, but is there evidence that they actually do it?
Are there laws in the US which discriminate based on sex and disfavour women?
(I understand that laws concerning abortion are a hot topic, but as men can not get pregnant, there can not be an analogon for men and hence no discrimination based on sex).
On the other hand it is easy to find laws which disfavour men.
If we don’t live within a patriarchal structure, then where are the women in this “oligarchy”? Is it a coincidence that men are the ones in most positions of power, with the most money? Sure, it may not be about the penis–but we have to examine power and gender and “WHY?”.
Heather writes: “Danny, I said “insofar as they are doing what they think is best for anyone besides themselves.” Yeah, no kidding they’re looking out for themselves. It’s politics. That’s what they do. But being men, it makes sense for them to think of other men next…or other straight people (if they’re straight)” Again this is 100% assumptions (which is a big problem I have with a lot of feminists studies) with no proof. If it would get a straight politician greater votes to advocate for gay marriage then that is what he/she will do. Politicians chase votes, they don’t… Read more »
Heather,
Look at Mike Nifong. A straight white male who hid exculpatory dna evidence and other prosecutorial misconduct against 3 STRAIGHT WHITE MALES. Why? Because his district was mostly black and he wanted re-elections. Your point is null and void.
But being men, it makes sense for them to think of other men next…or other straight people (if they’re straight), or other white people if they’re white, etc. It’s easiest to accurately understand what you think is best for people whose perspectives are the same as your own. Even in the face of such “sense” look at the state of men. The “…perspectives are the same as your own..” has certainly not translated to looking out for men at large. No it has translated to looking out for themselves and their own. Now to be sure this is not to… Read more »
Honestly, I can’t believe this line of debate.
Your point is null and void.
John I understand how you feel on this but let’s cool down a bit.
What it comes down to is that there is no lobbying for the benefit of men and boys. It’s clear by some of the responses that some GMP feminists aren’t truly interested in the well-being of men unless it’s orchestrated and controlled by feminists or at the very least, men’s rights as needs are structured to how the feminists see them as being needed. It’s clear that some GMP feminists still rely upon the old warn out idea that the “good old boy” network is alive and well in Washington and that it only concerns itself with issues that can… Read more »
Heather N writes: “You want a men’s lobby, go ahead and make one. That’s your right. But seriously, the vast majority of people in the federal government are, actually, doing what they think is best for men (insofar as they are doing what they think is best for anyone besides themselves)…because they are men.” This is the assumed narrative of feminism that is never bothered to be proven. Did Montel, Phil Donahue, or Dr Phil stagger their shows towards men since they are men? No, they stagger their shows towards women because that is the key audience in the afternoon.… Read more »
“Woooooow…no men’s lobby? Funny that, when the vast majority of people in federal public office are men. ” This is the most common mistake feminists make. Assuming that those in office actually care that much about the 99.99999999% of other men. Who is lobbying those in power? Take a look at the RIAA/MPAA shit storm that brews because of major lobbying of those companies to politicians surrounding piracy and how many draconian laws are on the books like SOPA and it’s other derivitives, when the majority of people don’t want it. Just because men are in office it doesn’t mean… Read more »
“Just because the majority of positions of power are taken up by men, it doesn’t mean those few, those “elite”, actually give a shit about the millions of other men.”
The whole point is that the majority of positions of power are taken up by men and so few actually care about gender equality and women. And if that perpetuates how is anything going to change?
see, here’s the thing, people in power may mostly be men- but they aren’t all men.
they may mostly be white- but they aren’t all white
And, here’s the kicker, they ARE all wealthy.
So, by the very same logic you just used, we live in a society controlled by the rich. An oligarchy. All other factors are secondary (secondary, not nonexistant) to that fact.
“The whole point is that the majority of positions of power are taken up by men and so few actually care about gender equality and women. And if that perpetuates how is anything going to change?” Well we’d need a women’s lobby and men’s lobby to ensure women and men’s best interests are at heart, maybe a lobby for poverty AND the middle AND upper class to ensure theres no lower income people getting the stick, or middle class falling down, etc. Add in the rights for disability, sexual orientation, racial issues, did I leave any out? Encourage more women… Read more »
I don’t fault GMP for the absence of MRA mods. They are certainly open to it. I just suspect many are to leery given some of GMP’s history (the MRM series you mention was a travesty). Others, like myself, recognize their limitations (I couldn’t be a mod here, I can get very wrapped up and passionate about some of these discussions. plus I can’t write articles).
A) you don’t have to write articles. B) I get wrapped up and passionate but choose not to act on feelings that I think would derail good threads. I’ve approved many a comment I personally disagree (and you know what? many of those were from women!) with because I value the discussion. I don’t like the “people are leery” comment. We’ve asked many people to mod, and we have two male and two female moderators. And I, as one of the chicks involved as well as Heather, pretty much have been kicked off of Feminist Island. So if MRAs aren’t… Read more »
“So if MRAs aren’t volunteering, that’s on them, not GMP.” I’m sorry. I thought that was what I said. As to the leery comment… Do you remember the series on the men’s right movement? With articles that treated the MRM as a joke or a hate group (That’s when I stopped reading the first time)? GMP has changed a lot since then, but that doesn’t mean people haven’t forgotten. The only reason I returned was because I heard that Tom had stood up for himself (and I thought that earned him a second chance for his site. I’m glad I… Read more »
The only MRA I see here regularly is Mark Neil (I think you’re an MRA, if not I apologize). I don’t see any other self-ID’s MRA’s so maybe there just aren’t many regular MRA folks to choose from here, I see far more feminists on here then MRA’s.
Yeah, I identify as MRA, though I’ve openly stated where my opinions split from the majority (I don’t see feminism as man hating any more than I see it as about equality. That said, I don’t take offense to the identification of the MRM as calling feminists man-haters, because they do, even if I do not.). Ironically, the reason I identify as MRA rather than egalitarian, where I started out, was because my stance on men’s rights kept getting me called an MRA by feminists, and the more I debated gender politics, the more I realized there was a need… Read more »
“I believe in balance, and balance does not require absolute equality (the sexes are different, men can’t have babies, women don’t generally have the same physical strength and stature, what else remains is the topic of many debates.” Yeah, I’m going to poke at you a bit here….cis-men & trans-women can’t have babies (as a general rule, though this is not always the case)…hope you see what I’m getting at here. Feminists, as a rule, aren’t trying to say that males and females (or men and women) are the same. What we are often saying is that the vast majority… Read more »
Ironically, the reason I identify as MRA rather than egalitarian, where I started out, was because my stance on men’s rights kept getting me called an MRA by feminists…. Ah yeah this sounds very familiar. I can’t count how many times I’ve been called and MRA by feminists. And the best part is the fact that until I came across some of the feminists around here the assumption was NEVER made in a positive or even neutral manner. Part of this is why even now I have a hard time feeling anything when feminists complain about being presumed to be… Read more »
“Sometimes I’ve considered taking on the label to just spite them. But then I realized they are so blinded by their bias that they would be even more inclined to magically forget any and all of my acts and words of merit.”
That’s a pretty big generalization, mate…and it totally doesn’t take into account the fact that so few positive MRA spaces exist. (We’ve had this conversation…I’m not trying to start this debate again).
That’s a pretty big generalization, mate…and it totally doesn’t take into account the fact that so few positive MRA spaces exist. (We’ve had this conversation…I’m not trying to start this debate again). Generalizing huh? I’ll give you that I should have quantified that as I was trying to specifically point out the ones that would do such things and I presumed it was clear that they do not all do that. Off the top of my head I can say that a good number of the feminists around here manage to disagree with me without tossing that label at me… Read more »
“In short Heather takes more than “He is in the gender discourse and he said something I don’t like.” to back up the presumption, “He must be an MRA!!!”” Naw, I meant more like…there are certain topics that I see brought up by MRAs regularly, and not positively. I do not doubt people have called you an MRA simply because they’ve said stuff you disagree with. I seriously do not doubt that. However, my point is that when I see someone discussing certain topics from a certain position, and using very particular terms and talking points…I assume they are an… Read more »
“And the number of positive MRA spaces has absolutely no bearing on labeling someone an MRA just because said person said something they didn’t like (regardless of civility of the thing being said).” The irony (and perhaps tragedy) being that, so long as MRA is thrown around like a slur and used to silence legitimate arguments, the truly positives will be reluctant to join the movement. Ultimately, this hurts the men’s movement, which is a win for gender feminists, but it also hurts the feminist movement, because those who are male positive and yet, not already feminists, will attribute that… Read more »
Generalizations borne of experience are generally truer than those borne of ignorance. Feminists know little about the MRM, or even MRAs, but the MRMs and MRAs spend quite a lot of time looking at Feminism. Critically. Also, aside from the fact that positive MRA spaces are not defined solely by you, how do you expect to find a “positive” MRA space when people are too busy trashing them for caring more about men?Also, your comment begs the question: can you name a truly positive Feminist space? (I mean, one which welcomes a discussion of trans-issues, raical issues, class issues, AND… Read more »
Julie:
I don’t like the “people are leery” comment. We’ve asked many people to mod, and we have two male and two female moderators. And I, as one of the chicks involved as well as Heather, pretty much have been kicked off of Feminist Island.
But the both of you still ID as such and honestly some folks have been burned by the “we just want civil conversation” ploy one time too many. Thus the leery feeling.
I’d say we’ve been kicked off of Internet Feminist Island (Feminist Internet Island…dunno the best order). I still maintain that in real life people are a lot less horrible.
Maybe but the transition from online to offline doesn’t suddenly make “Once bitten, twice shy” untrue.
No. I was just talking about Julie and I getting kicked off the island, and saying I think we were kicked off the internet island, specifically.
So I’d ask them to look around and observe. That’s on them. I ID as lots of things and if anyone spent time looking at what I write, where I write it and where I’m NOT at (as Heather mentioned we’ve been banished, if not really, then in spirit, from the serious feminist spaces), then perhaps they’d realize. But hey, not my deal. If MRA want to complain there are no MRA mods, and then not participate due to me being a feminist (as if that’s all I am)….that’s not my deal.
“(as Heather mentioned we’ve been banished, if not really, then in spirit, from the serious feminist spaces)”
It is baffling to me that you can be rejected from these feminist spaces for daring to speak positively of men, and yet, don’t see how this might reflect poorly on feminism. Are there any online feminist “islands” you are able to visit without issue?
Mark, do you think I don’t understand how this could reflect poorly on feminism? I’m not dumb. Have you ever met a Christian who, over time, became an Atheist? I have. The ones I knew had a lot of pain over the decision even though it was right for them. There was grief. You think I don’t feel grief every day over blog-o-feminism compared to the feminism of my youth and upbringing? I do, Mark. I find it exquisitely painful. And I don’t label myself any one thing. And I just read Ozy and Noah’s amazing first chapter of their… Read more »
Sorry Julie. The comment should have been directed at heather, not you. As I honestly don’t think she understands it, given how adamantly she insists in feminisms inherent goodness, how the problems are just with the radfems, and has nothing to do with the other feminists who have ostracized you both for speaking up for men. You actually don’t defend feminism the way she does, and not clarifying that wasn’t fair to you.
I really agree with this. I also considered this a feminist website (given its focus on gender) and obviously stood corrected. My personal association with feminism is intertwined with my concept of my masculinity as if that ever came off offensive I can’t apologize for that. But I can apologize for any personal beef with anyone. I also hope that my views wouldn’t be discounted on a sight like this just because it’s rooted in a “women’s” movement. This has been a very enlightening experience for me: apparently there’s a bigger frame outside of feminism (as a male) that is… Read more »
Yep.
Tom, I’m going to put it this way. Do you want to simply have a space for men to tell their stories? Or do you want to foster conversation about what it means to be a good man? If the former, simply disallow commenting. Then the stories stand on their own, to be interpreted privately and personally by each individual reader, and the environment of the site does not immediately become political. Harsh? Perhaps. But if keeping the stories and the truth intact is the No. 1 priority, this is how to do it. (Speaking from a web content manager’s… Read more »
Awesome comment.
I agree.
Whoa. Feels like high praise coming from the two of you. 🙂 Sincere thanks. I’ve been a web content manager, including moderation of comments, in a previous job. So I empathize with how tough it is to put something out there with a certain intention, and see that intention get changed (anywhere from a subtle tweak to being smashed to bits) once the piece becomes public. I’d like to think I understand Tom’s despair on that point. I think the Internet may not be the best medium for what he is trying to achieve – but I don’t have any… Read more »
I’d suggest a storytelling forum in real time like a reading series. No commentary afterwards save for what audience members do on their own. I co produce one and it’s very emotional and less visibly intellectual.
Does not having to filter your experience through the lens of feminism really count as cutting other people out? If so, I would say that the problem isn’t with Tom.
Lens is a good metaphor to use here. I wear glasses/contacts, and when I have to take them off, things get blurry and hard for me to interpret. I walk into things and stub my toes because I’m less aware of my surroundings and have to rely on other senses that aren’t as strong or as primary for me as my vision. So if I have the option to put the glasses back on, I will, rather than trying to fumble my way through the blur. I carry the perspective of feminism, and when I’m asked to push it aside,… Read more »
That is a beautiful example. We all have our frames and lenses and it is often vey challenging to look through new ones or not use our own.
My lens is organic, always adapting to the new environments and information I see. I guess it’s just like my astigmatism, have to change prescriptions every few years cept my “lens” adapted over a few weeks and months given new info. What it will be in a months time, who knows, that’s the fun of learning!
I can see where you’re coming from with your lens example and it’s true that different folks have different lenses. Also I agree that trying to look at things through other people’s lenses can be troubling. Now bearing your metaphor in mind I’m sure you can understand the effect of someone else coming up to you and trying to make you put on their lens under the premise that their lens is the one and only lens that can be used to see clearly. Despite knowing that your lenses allow you to see things more clearly than theirs they try… Read more »
Yes, I can see that – did I give you the impression that I couldn’t? I don’t believe anyone should assert or insist that his/her personal lens is the best match for anyone other than themselves. Evangelicals make me grind my teeth. And since my own shift in beliefs and attitudes motivated by my conversations here, I admit I’m now one of the ones who groans when a “newbie” comes around and starts up with “rape culture” and “male privilege” and other such barbed language. Like I said, relying on your own lenses isn’t necessarily the right thing to do… Read more »
Yes, I can see that – did I give you the impression that I couldn’t? No, just going with your example to explain the problems with different perspectives. And since my own shift in beliefs and attitudes motivated by my conversations here, I admit I’m now one of the ones who groans when a “newbie” comes around and starts up with “rape culture” and “male privilege” and other such barbed language. I understand. While not so much with the term “rape culture” I’ve about gotten to the point where the mention of “male privilege” is a turn off to me… Read more »
I think that the primary measure of what determines a good man is the way that then man interacts with society and others. Every person is entitled to their own beliefs. If a person’s mind is filled with hate, but that person never espoused it or acts on it, is that person a bad person? I don’t think so and neither is a person good, who never espouses or acts on it. It is what we elect to do and when we fail to act that determines whether we are good. Because it’s the action or inaction and not the… Read more »
“I learned it when I was a 23 year-old in high heels and miniskirts, and The Good Men Project has reinforced it for me: Most men care about women’s issues.” I wish in my little chunk of the world this was true in the reverse. Most women i see expect you to be a MAN (TM) and if you don’t meet those archaic requirements you are pretty much worthless/inconsequential. This could also be an effect of just graduating from a STE school where it was 74% men.
It saddens me to my core to see a heart felt article like the one Tom wrote be dragged through the mud for simply suggesting than men have a frame of experience OUTSIDE of feminism. You know, this is really starting to piss me off. Over and over, you prove that feminism’s interest in men is simply how they can benefit women. I’m tired of it. We can’t have one, ONE, article about men on a men’s site without it devolving into this. THIS is why I walked away from feminism years ago. I can’t even get room to breathe… Read more »
DLZ don’t give up. I am obviously REALLY trying to create the thing you crave.
Tom, it’s hard to not want to give up. I’m 58 years old, I’ve seen the evolution first hand, I’ve experienced it with my family and friends. Men my age are tired. I look at my 27 year old son and wonder what his future is going to be. What’s worse is that I’m glad that I won’t be alive to experience what my 2 year old grandson will have to deal with if things don’t change. I’ve been exposed to men’s and fathers rights movement for many many years and as I mentioned before, MRA/MRM’s are virtually nonexistent I’ve… Read more »
I’ve seen a number of reasoned, sensitive well written responses in response to Tom. If no one respected him, they’d either have told him off in crude language or not written at all. Dialogue doesn’t mean echo chamber. He opened the door to the conversation and must have known that the editors and writers associated with the site were excited for his piece and eager to share their voices in concert and also counterpoint. That’s hardly dragging someone through the mud. That they care so much about him and the project he started means they respect him enough as a… Read more »
DLZ, I’m really sorry your frustrated. I personally approach feminism in how it can benefit men. I think of how it affected and changed me for the better. The truth is men have an experience and relationship to patriarchy completely unique to that of women (I think), if the space you and Tom are trying to create caters to that then that’s wonderful news. I have gotten a sense from a couple of comments that whenever Feminism is brought up (naturally, we’re talking about gender) a couple of guys huff and buff about how *this* is so different than *that*… Read more »
DLZ, let me ask you this. In the men’s movement, be it MRM or the broader masculinist movement, are you concerned with women? Is your core mission to help women? No. Feminists’ core issues are not about helping men, either. But there is NO REASON we can’t be allies. I’m pissed too, DLZ. I’m pissed because you all think that recognizing what’s happening with women, and Yashar’s piece (who’s read it? any of you?) is somehow about trying to take attention away from men. Like I said, a MAN asking other MEN to care about what’s happening with inequality for… Read more »
I’ve read Yashar’s pice, posted on my FB days ago, and passed it along. My whole argument is that there CAN be space for men by men and we can talk about issues that matter to us–including issues women face because, quite frankly–men should care about that if not for daughters, wives, mothers, then at least out of being a good human.
I appreciate your words Joanna, because as a man in this thread I feel the same sense of “all you are is a (male) feminist” and this is not my space. Even though I’m a man and even though this is the Good Man Project.
You know, in a world without feminism, a mens movement might well be about women too. But then again, feminism iss supposedly about men too, but we all know how that turned out. But you know what? This isn’t about feminism. THAT’S THE WHOLE POINT! This is about men talking about their issues without having to prostrate themselves before the PC police just to get a word out. It. Isn’t. About. You. It will never BE about you. End of story. I wouldn’t even be attacking you for “not being an individual” if all you had done was just let… Read more »
First, Tom ASKED us to find countering and agreeing perspectives. You know who I emailed to ask to write on it?? Zek and Danny. YES the Zek and Danny right here in these comments. And I asked Shawn Maxam, whom you can read here on GMP in this conversation. So I didn’t weasel my way in here, I was invited in. I don’t actually think feminism is about men. I think it’s about equalizing the gender gap so that women can be equal with men. I believe that the MRM or other masculinist movements are about finding ways for men… Read more »
@ Joanna ’I’m pissed at being misrepresented. I’m pissed at being misunderstood. I’m pissed that the HUGE amount of work I do for you men, regarding men’s issues (because I care about them) and all I am to you is a feminist, like any that hurt you before. I’m not an individual to you. I’m a woman. And to you all I don’t belong here.” As an individual who has disagreed with you on numerous occasions and pissed you off on some, I can say that I never once thought that you shouldn’t be here. I do question why there… Read more »
Thank you, John. I appreciate that. I double appreciate it from you.
We must challenge one another. If you go into a room filled with those exactly like yourself and you just yell about how angry everyone is about the same things, there is no growth.
It is in going out, talking, communicating and explaining that we grow and change others.
@ Joanna “In the men’s movement, be it MRM or the broader masculinist movement, are you concerned with women? Is your core mission to help women? No. Feminists’ core issues are not about helping men, either. But there is NO REASON we can’t be allies.” If I have misinterpreted this, please clarify, but I do need to bring this up in case I haven’t. When we get too focused on helping one gender (it’s our core purpose), we sometimes end up disadvantaging the other gender. We get pulled into the zero sum game, which it sometimes is. Many times the… Read more »
This is an attempt at emotional manipulation. And from what you are saying you don’t even represent mainstream feminism. If we can’t generalize feminists and there are many different kinds of feminists then why should anyone accept your blanket defence of feminism and why should you be offended if people point out their problem with a branch of feminism of which you are not a part?
It’s interesting to see what stuff has changed and what has not around here, Joanna.
Beautiful stories do move people, but they don’t further discussion unless they are followed by analysis. And analysis often leads to discussion about gender roles, and talk of gender roles often leads to conversations revolving around feminism or men’s rights. I disagree. I have spent years listening to men and boys share their stories of abuse. Most of those stories spawned discussions, but none of them hinged on analysis, and certainly not feminist analysis. Sometimes the personal is not political. Sometimes it is just personal. Sometimes is just something that needs to be shared because no one wants to talk… Read more »
“Sometimes the personal is not political. Sometimes it is just personal. Sometimes is just something that needs to be shared because no one wants to talk about that thing. I look at the Sandusky case, and I see a discussion that is not about gender roles or why the young men caused their own abuse because they are inherently complicit in “patriarchy”, but a discussion about how schools focus more on their financial benefits and prestige over children, how people turn a blind eye to abuse, and how our culture’s attitude towards boys helps keep abused boys silent.” I’d say… Read more »
Julie, I am sure you have seen conversations about how gender roles silence men. I am also sure that most, if not all, of those conversations did not include any male survivors in the discussion. If you look at what the survivors from the Sandusky case testified to, their silence did not come from gender roles but from fear, shame, people forcing them to stay around Sandusky, and people disbelieving them. If we only looked through a feminist lens we would miss all of that, along with everything that led to Sandusky being allowed to abuse boys even after allegations… Read more »
I hear that Jacob and in my conversations with people about the horrors of it, didn’t talk about it from that lens at all. Mostly shock and shame that the culture supported such a man in a job like that. That the boys were placed in immoral untenable positions, and most all of the things you mentioned. I’m guessing what I mean by politics is the wrong word. I most certainly don’t mean that everything we see on the news has to be placed in a political/policy frame, but that the very act of speaking out and listening, of telling… Read more »
“If Tom wants to turn The Good Men Project into a magazine solely dedicated to men telling their stories, I believe that would be beautiful. But that won’t be a project. That’ll be an ever-evolving anthology.” In Tom’s piece he said: But I refuse to see the world with a reductionist lens that dismisses the possibility that men can have their own stories of struggle for goodness that can be shared man-to-man in a way that changes the teller and the listener alike quite apart from what a woman or a feminist might say about that story. …in a way… Read more »