“One of [the] childish things adult men must put away is the need to deflect, belittle, or exaggerate women’s anger.”
EDITOR’S NOTE: This post was originally due to run on December 19. In fact, we posted it for a short while, pulled it down, and Hugo Schwyzer ultimately resigned when we couldn’t come to an agreement over his perceived censorship of this post and his role moving forward. The post first ran on his blog under the title “Why I Resigned From The Good Men Project.” We are publishing it now with Hugo’s knowledge and permission.
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One of the most popular articles of the year (and certainly one of the most-viewed here at GMP) is Yashar Ali’s now thoroughly viral Why Women Aren’t Crazy. Referencing an old film, Yashar coined the simple term “gaslighting” to describe the way in which men undermine women’s self-confidence through subtle (and not so subtle) insinuations that women’s feelings are unreasonable. I’ve thought about Yashar’s piece quite a bit as I’ve reflected on the recent Twitter blow-up between GMP founder Tom Matlack and a number of well-known feminist writers. (For more, see here, and here, and here.)
I’ve also remembered an incident from a women’s studies class of mine many years ago. It was a typical course: perhaps 30 women and 6 men. Most of the guys had been quiet all semester long. But one (there is often such a one) was a talker. “Kevin” liked to stir the proverbial pot; a member of the college’s forensics team, he was a skilled debater who liked to argue. Many of his female classmates argued back, not infrequently getting the better of him, which spurred Kevin to try even harder to instigate arguments.
One day, Kevin came to class with a duffel bag. I thought little of it, until—in the midst of a discussion about men and feminism—he reached into the duffle and pulled out a football helmet. “I know I’m gonna get killed for what I’m about to say,” he announced dramatically. “I brought some protection.” Kevin then strapped the helmet on as his classmates and I stared in shock. I told him to cut out the cheap theatrics, but not before he’d made a powerful point, though I’m confident it wasn’t the one he intended to make.
Kevin’s gag with the football helmet was designed to send a signal about women and anger. The message he wanted to send was, as he told me later, that “feminists take things too seriously and get too aggressive.” The message he actually sent was that men will go to great lengths to try and short-circuit women’s attempts at serious conversation. The helmet was an effort to label those attempts as “male-bashing” or “man-hating.” The hope was that it would shame uppity feminists into biting back their anger; of course, Kevin only ended up inflaming the situation. In less dramatic ways, I’ve seen men use this same tactic again and again.
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What bothered so many of us about the Twitter conversation about feminism was that Tom Matlack trotted out (as so many men do) that same tactic of attempting to silence women’s anger by suggesting that it poses a threat. Tom tweeted at Jenn Pozner that some men are afraid to speak up out of fear of female reprisals. Kind of being proven right here. Now Jennifer Pozner is a well-known feminist media critic, but she’s hardly in the position to carry out “reprisals” against anyone for speaking out, not that she would if she could. Nor was Jenn (or Kate Harding, or Amanda Marcotte) engaged in throwing stones, which didn’t stop Tom from describing the “pelting” he was taking from feminists.
A short while later, Tom tweeted I really thought the MRA guys were crazy until I engaged the wrath of the feminists. Insane. Though I doubt Tom thought this through clearly, this is the textbook “gaslighting” to which Yashar refers. No feminist had called Tom a name equivalent to the names he (and I) are regularly called by MRAs (“mangina” is the epithet of choice from the Basement Boys); it didn’t matter. Jennifer and Amanda were “insane.”
Seemingly innocuous words often have a profound charge depending on how and by whom they’re used. Tom knows, surely, how problematic it is to use the word “boy” to refer to an African-American. It’s not a curse word in most contexts, but when used by a white person to refer to an adult black male, it’s steeped in the long and painful history of racism in America. What many men fail to understand is that accusing a woman of being insane or of engaging in reprisals merely because she’s expressing forceful disagreement has an equivalent ugliness. If that seems hyperbolic, google the word “hysteria.”
All of this behavior reflects two things: men’s genuine fear of being challenged and confronted, and the persistence of the stereotype of feminists as being aggressive, wrathful, “man-bashers.” The painful thing about all this, of course, is that no man is in any real physical danger on the internet—or even in real life—from feminists. Women are regularly beaten and raped, but I know of no instance where a man found himself a victim of violence for making a sexist remark in a feminist setting! “Male-bashing” doesn’t literally happen, in other words, at least not as a result of arguments over feminism. But that doesn’t stop men from using (in jest or no) their own exaggerated fear of physical violence to make a subtle point about feminists.
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There’s a conscious purpose to this sort of behavior. Joking about getting pelted (or putting on the football helmet) sends a message to women in the classroom—and online: “Tone it down. Take care of the men and their feelings. Don’t scare them off, because too much impassioned feminism is scary for guys.” And you know, as exasperating as it is, this kind of silencing language almost always works. Time and again, I’ve seen it work to silence women in the classroom, or at least cause them to worry about how to phrase things “just right” so as to protect the guys and their feelings. It’s a key anti-feminist strategy, even if that isn’t the actual intent of the men doing it—it forces women to become conscious caretakers of their male peers by subduing their own frustration and anger. It reminds young women that they should strive to avoid being one of those “angry feminists” who (literally) scare men off and drive them away.
This doesn’t mean that a “good man” is always in the wrong when he’s arguing with a woman. It does mean that when men and women argue about gender justice, women are more likely to have insights that men have missed. Here’s the basic axiom: power conceals itself from those who possess it. And the corollary is that privilege is revealed more clearly to those who don’t have it. When a man and a woman are arguing about feminism—and the women involved happen to be feminists and the man happens to be an affluent white dude—the chances that he’s the one from whom the truth is more obscured is very high indeed. That’s as true for me as it is for Tom Matlack.
I’ll say it a thousand times. I respect and admire Tom Matlack for what he’s done to start this conversation, even as I disagree with him about the degree to which men and women are really different. I disagree with his take about being “attacked” by feminists, as I don’t see the evidence of animus towards him that that word implies. But the real disagreement we have is, I think, a bigger (though not necessarily insurmountable) one.
This is the Good Man Project, and as I’ve said a time or nine, I think the opposite of “man” is not “woman”, but “boy.” At the heart of the reason I joined GMP was because I believe we live in a culture where too few adult males assert the grown-up virtues of self-control, responsibility, and manifested empathy. Being “manly” is less about traditional machismo than it is about what the Apostle Paul calls the putting away of childish things. And one of those childish things adult men must put away is the need to deflect, belittle, or exaggerate women’s anger.
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Read Justin Cascio’s interpretation of the events here:
“Can Founders Be Criticized on The Good Men Project?“
—Photo Self-portrait Girl/Flickr
What Schwyzer doesn’t seem to realize (or refuses to admit, more likely) is that on the whole, men’s anger and women’s anger are quite different. I know this quite well myself, having been intimate with both men and women. Men’s anger is sharp, controlled, and directed. Women’s anger is loud, disorganized, and vicious. Case in point: Amanda Marcotte. Her knee-jerk reaction to Tom’s article (in which she attacked him for something that he not only didn’t say, but didn’t even imply) is a prime example of the feminist mindset of labeling anybody who disagrees with you as a misogynist. If… Read more »
“Men’s anger is sharp, controlled, and directed. Women’s anger is loud, disorganized, and vicious.”
Thanks. Thanks for that. I’m sorry if my anger is too loud, disorganized, and vicious. It must be all that estrogen making me moody.
But I have deep respect for your controlled and directed anger.
Have you ever dated a woman? If not, then you have no idea what I’m talking about.
Explain how the anger differs more? I’ve seen both genders lash out uncontrollably, and both use quite directed anger with restraint.
The word gaslighting was coined back in the 1940’s from the movie….just google y’all!
He did not coin the word.
correction to this comment from the OP: “Referencing an old film, Yashar coined the simple term “gaslighting” to describe…”
no, yashar ali did not coin this simple term. he even makes this clear in his original post. the term has been around since the 1970s. florence rush used the word in a book she wrote in 1980.
please make the correction – this is a pretty misleading error.
Thank you for also picking up on the repeated errors that keep on being passed about so freely!
Although I have read several recent posts on this site, this is my first time to comment so please bear with my ignorance of the issues and personalities that are addressed in this post. I don’t belong to any feminist groups nor have I kept up with feminist ideology or personalities over the years, although I’m familiar with Naomi Wolf. I came of age in the 60s-70s and delivered my English high school thesis on Germaine Greer to a class of mainly, (excuse the term) “rednecks”, in a rural Texas community. You can imagine how the subject went over, given… Read more »
No problem about the multiple comment, and thank you for joining in the conversation. I’m the publisher, and well aware of what seems like a bottleneck in terms of advancing the discussion. We are looking at how — as a community — we can get beyond this. We all agree that the conversation is important, the issues need to be discussed and that some of us want to actually create social change. (Others simply want to tell stories or create art, and that is fine too.) A big part of the problem is that we are taking on polarizing issues… Read more »
“A big part of the problem is that we are taking on polarizing issues and allowing both sides to contribute. Right now it’s feminism and men’s rights. Other times it’s race or class or education or prison.” If I may be so bold, what about the issue of sex worker rights? Because specifically, you ran an incredibly problematic piece on “human trafficking” a couple of weeks ago: https://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/sex-trafficking-on-google/ In this article, *all* prostitution was conflated with sex trafficking, and more or less the underlying idea that sites like Google should be pressured not to allow sex worker advertising of any… Read more »
Iamcuriousblue: I would ask if you are yourself a sex worker asking this question about sex worker rights. And yes, the answer would create a different set of judgements for me. I have known sex workers personally, not as a client, nor a counselor, nor a rescuer. Some of the sex workers I knew liked the work. Yet all of them abused themselves through drugs and other means of perceived self hate. All of them which I knew had been sexually abused as children. I personally didn’t see their sex work as one of choice as much as self abuse,… Read more »
First, no I’m not a sex worker, I just try to be an ally of that movement (and I have to ask what your problem is with sex workers having non-sex worker allies), and more generally, of social movements from below that are steamrolled over by the kind of blindly class-privileged authoritarian do-gooderism represented in that article. I’ll also say that I could care less about your “set of judgements”, since I have no idea who you are or what puts you in any position to judge me. I think sex workers exist in a huge variety of situations, interpersonally,… Read more »
Hi iamcuriousblue,
We are a community site, which means that our “editorial balance” is created by what our community submits to us. Although some of what is sent in is just not right for us, we work with everyone who wants to be a contributor. So in terms of “who speaks for marginalized groups” — it’s anyone who wants to. If you, or Furrygirl, or Melissa Gira want to contribute, all you have to do is submit a post, either online, here, https://goodmenproject.submishmash.com/submit or to me by email lisa at goodmenproject dot com
I am saddened that you chose to attack my comments rather than read them. I said ‘judgements’ because I choose to own that the words I was going to say were not fact, nor commonly held, but were my own thoughts and conclusions. I also never used the word ‘all’, only that of the sex workers I knew, this was the case. I was offered the opportunity to be a sex worker. I was poor, and knew people who were working four days a week and making more money than I was, and was very tempted by the money and… Read more »
I would say read your own comments back. You chose to lead it off with “set of judgements” and demands to know where I was coming from. In fact, I have no idea why what I initially wrote was so triggering to you. As for the last paragraph, that was not directed at you and I suggest you go back and re-read that. That was directed at the editorial slant and class bias I saw at work in GMP’s choice of articles (though I do take Lisa Hickey’s point in good faith that GMP depends on uninvited submissions, and I… Read more »
I find it revealing that you state that I demanded, when in fact I requested to know your relationship to the issue you had posed. Also, ‘I I have no idea why what I initially wrote was so triggering to you,’ appears to be a dismissive statement. I think these are good examples of the term ‘gaslighting’ in action. Gaslighting is not always as overt and can be used in more subtle ways to undermine another person’s credibility with whom one disagrees. I acted in integrity by stating that I was having judgements, because I accept that I will create… Read more »
***Gaslighting***?? Oh, for fuck’s sake! I guess some people have learned a new word, and can self-servingly invoke it to paint themselves as some kind of victim when an argument isn’t going their way. If there wasn’t a general policy against inflammatory language, I’d tell you exactly what you can do with your cheap accusations. But needless to say, you are *way our of line* and this conversation ends here.
I agree that this conversation ends, but not because via your attempt to silence me. Via your own comments, you have revealed your nature.
I originally posted this comment on a Facebook page but was persuaded that it might be better posted here: An interesting discussion that seems to repeat itself far too often. I founded GenderAgenda in 1987 at Middlesex Poly and it was still active about 10 years later. But in my short experience of it, and in contributing to Carol Lee’s book The Blind Side of Eden, I noticed a great many similarities to arguments concerning race in my time as chair of the Black Employees Support Group in Watford: namely, that the more powerful groups, politically and socially, often feel… Read more »
I can appreciate the “women have been doing this for ages” sentiment in fact on some fronts I have the same sentiment towards women. However that sentiment doesn’t excuse my holding hostility to women that are starting to get in on the issues that harm men. Isn’t the same true? For ‘new men’ to write about the wrath of feminists is to deny their own part in the prevailing culture of power and abuse. Which is why this does not hold. There is some wrath among feminists. I agree its not fair to try to paint the entire movement as… Read more »
Danny, you say; “Men having a part in the way the gender norms play out does not excuse the kind of negativity that some feminists have taken up (and that others give them a free pass on).” But it is not necessary for the members of a victimised group to have excuses for their anger at their victimisation when they have, instead, good reason. We are not discussing whether or not one individual is rude to another, that should always be avoided when possible because civilised discourse requires restraint. We are discussing men and women not merely as individuals but… Read more »
Are you also angry at the power structures that attempt to force you into self-sacrifice roles via selective service/draft (If you are from U.S.A)? Also society, culture play a very large role and many gender-roles would leave a man in a bad situation at times, do these get talked about in your group? You can’t talk about privileges without talking about the responsibilities behind them.
Archy, I’m not from the U.S.A. and have no military background. But, in the group I was in for a few years in the 1980s, we talked about all of those issues – particularly the place of class and gender in carrying out the dirty work: those issues are not mutually exclusive from seeing oneself as a political agent for either complacency or change. When I was growing up in rural England in the 1950s and 1960s, many family atlases still showed half the world in pink and the pressure to conform to the needs of Empire were very strong… Read more »
But it is not necessary for the members of a victimised group to have excuses for their anger at their victimisation when they have, instead, good reason. Even when that anger results in negative behavior? Even if it results in some of the very same behavior they are fighting against? There is a difference between a feminist getting angry over the concept of male privilege and a feminist getting angry over the concept of male privilege then setting out to actively deny the experiences of men that don’t line up with the concept of male privilege. Anger in and of… Read more »
Danny, I would agree that anyone, regardless of gender, can take extreme positions that make no sense. That can be infuriating. And as we all have our own positions on many issues there are bound to be bust-ups, inconsistencies and unecessary agression in heated discussions. Yet those confrontations are certainly not unique to discussions about gender issues and happen within single-sex groups all the time as well as between them. But I have to say, in 40 years discussing these issues I have never personally encountered a woman who has (for example) denied the suffering that male rape victims endure.… Read more »
Hi — I want to jump in here. The “Wrath of the Feminists” — when used as the title of the post — was first used by Jenn Pozner — one of the feminists in the Twitter discussion. We had simply reposted what she had posted — title and all. In fact, I had talked to her about reposting it and she had said, “make sure to put quotes around the title” (since it had first been used within the twitter conversation) and make sure to link back to her original post. Both of which I did. It has been… Read more »
Lisa, I agree that “we can’t get to the root of these problems without being able to talk about them honestly.” It seems to me that that is what we are doing here. It is still my preference not to use phrases that apply to some people in contexts that allow the phrases to be perceived as representative of a much broader group. I think that’s a reasonable position. I don’t always succeed, but who does?
Danny, I would agree that anyone, regardless of gender, can take extreme positions that make no sense. That can be infuriating. And as we all have our own positions on many issues there are bound to be bust-ups, inconsistencies and unecessary agression in heated discussions. Agreed. Yet those confrontations are certainly not unique to discussions about gender issues and happen within single-sex groups all the time as well as between them. Agreed. I think its just a matter that since most of the discussion in this space is about gender that’s why these confrontations happen around gender. But I have… Read more »
What would you say to the male victims who their harm is minimized and treated like it is so rare it’s “statistically irrelevent” as one anti-rape campaigner put it I believe. It’s all well n good to say the ones who cause the pain feel a sense of victimization from the other, but what of the actual victims who get treated like dirt from the very people who scream how much they are for equality? I think for women to take part in this wrath without listening to the other side shows quite an ignorance, and whilst Tom did say… Read more »
Am I the only one, when discussing this concept of privilege left wondering. If I as a man is unable to see my own privilege. How is it that women are able to determine that women have no privilege?
It was once explained to me as “Mirror, Mirror, On The Wall, …” P^)
You can actually have your privilege pointed out to you. If you go through life never having a social sciences class or talking to people from different backgrounds, you won’t be aware of your privilege, but you can be made aware of it. Apparently, as a woman, I have privilege when it comes to keeping my children in a family court. I… Well, I guess that’s it.
Female privileges would probably extend to overall lower death-rate for violence (WHO 2004 Death statistics), possibly lower incidents of violence overall too although I haven’t got those stats handy and it also varieson type of violence. AFAIK most violence reported is usually stranger based attacks, which favours male-male conflict, females usually receive higher rates of violence amongst people they know. Although with recent stats on bullying, IPV, Sexual abuse, I’m completely unsure of who gets more violence and I’m learning towards more even numbers of victims with the potential for varying incidents per person. ht tp://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2008/06/08/female-privilege/ that’s one article I’ve… Read more »
Well yes the irrational female anger is a threat. Let me explain. As long as the women continue to blame men for everything it’s implied we are guilty of it. When men get silenced for speaking out,the changes that need to be made in the courts will never be made. This monopolization of the conversation insures that the injustice is never corrected,shoring up misandrist law and female supremacy. Men really need to talk MORE about false accusations and the lack of recourse in conversation and in the courts. Otherwise we would be helpless. That is the goal of those using… Read more »
I do not know what life is like to be a man. I can only try to imagine. Yet, in the same ‘breath’, you tell me, as ‘Team Woman’ what I think, what my agendy in life is, and what I am out to get. Thereby, I feel I you have dismissed me outright, baby and bathwater. I would love to have a discourse about real issues with both sides choosing to put away the mudslinging and the sweeping accusations and dismissive generalizations. Humanity can hurt. Human excell at hurting other humans. Some hurts take place on larger, more systematic… Read more »
I so much agree with you AM (except for the bit about miracles 🙂
Freebird, to me that sounds like a misogynistic rant.
“Well yes the irrational female anger is a threat.”
Why is my anger irrational and yours is so rational?
““But to say that men don’t experience sexism or its not significant enough to mention is ignorance and erasure.” Cut and paste where I said that.” You minimised and dismissed any claim that men experience sexism by suggesting that any mention of their sexism is the same white people complaining about racism. “Hmm, not according to Dick Gregory, Alice Walker, and other Persons of Colour who have argued that it IS similar (but of course not identical, which I never said).” I can mention plenty of POC who disagree as well. “And comparing the experience of (MOST) white abled heterosexual… Read more »
With regard to the why this piece was initially pulled back, why Hugo resigned, and why it is now running I would like to add the following. Hugo and I exchanged emails on the afternoon of December 19th about the difficulty of the exchanges that had transpired. I urged him to move on and write about other things having already written once about me and my perceived lack of understanding in “Serious Discussion is Not “Wrath of Feminists””. I didn’t feel we needed to continue the mud slinging any more since it was, in my view, personal about me and… Read more »
She sounds about as mature as any 5 year old. Any man that doesn’t self-flagellate is probably thought of as bad in her books.
And you sound as mature as a middle-school girl who talks about other girls behind their backs in order to gain brownie points with the group you’re currently surrounded by.
I’m going to take offense to calling someone immature and making hyperbolic comments about someone who is not here to defend herself and without any reference to specific comments that make you think that “any man that doesn’t self-flagellate is probably thought of as bad in her books.”
Artemis, at the time of writing I believe she was still an active author here and I fully believed she may have read that. I wanted her to defend it, and the assumption which may be a bit extreme was based on reading her articles here which I found to be dismissive of male issues, and from other stuff I’ve seen. There is a reason she is seen in a negative light by quite a few people (google her name and various sites talk about it), but I actually all but forgot about her in the last few months and… Read more »
The more literature I read the more I want to move towards gender segregation.
The more I read, the more I wonder if Fahrenheit 451 may not have had some valid points! P^)
Why is my comment awaiting moderation? Is it because I typed % twice?
At the bottom of page one it says the wage gap is 4.8 to 7.1%. A little different than 23%. Thanks. Now we know.
I’ve always been interested in the reported 75 cents for every dollar wage gap debate. I just have had a hard time believing that there is that much of a gap. I was enlightened when I read this eye-opening and thought-provoking article by Kay Hymowitz: http://www.city-journal.org/2011/21_3_gender-gap.html. READ IT! Here’s an excerpt: “Let’s begin by unpacking that 75-cent statistic, which actually varies from 75 to about 81, depending on the year and the study. The figure is based on the average earnings of full-time, year-round (FTYR) workers, usually defined as those who work 35 hours a week or more. But consider… Read more »
Neely – lies, damned lies and statistics!
The dictionary needs to be updated to deal with emergent forms of Mythology that are engendered, created and spread at high speed due to the use of the Internet.
It’s either that, or make advanced stats compulsory eduction for all citizens. Should improve the situation in about 50 years.
Please read this CONSAD report:
http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf
As a matter of Courtesy and Good Netiquette – could you point to the pages which most succinctly support any point that you may wish to make.
The rate of words generated via the web on a daily basis do make it unreasonable to assume that others should read some 95 pages and be able to discern your point from that.
If you could provide even page numbers which guide the reader, it may well advance debate and reduce such things as assumption, presumption and transference of frustration.
Official US government (not exactly a feminist conspiracy) story/stats on the wage gap (from 2004, but since the economy has worsened, it’s a reasonable assumption that things haven’t gotten better for ANYONE): “Women make only 75.5 cents for every dollar that men earn, according to a new release by the U.S. Census Bureau. Between 2002 and 2003, median annual earnings for full-time year-round women workers shrank by 0.6 percent, to $30,724, while men’s earnings remained unchanged, at $40,668. The 1.4 percent decrease in the gender wage ratio is the largest backslide in 12 years (since 1991). The 2003 Census data… Read more »
Apologies, forgot the link to the first part of my comment (US Census information):
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandstatistics/a/paygapgrows.htm
So what occupations is the wage disparity greatest in? And if you take out government, military, and higher education jobs which are all paid at the same rate, wouldn’t that mean the disparity among all other jobs would be even greater than 24 percent?
Is that US study simply a tally on annual earnings, or is it balanced according to working hours? It could be 1, men may work longer, 2, men may be in more dangerous and higher paying jobs (hazard pay) or simply just jobs that earn big money like mining in Aus, 3, men may work more overtime and their salary reflects that? I dont think I’ve ever seen an MRA against paying women equally for equal time worked, I think they simply question the validity of the stats if the stats aren’t taking into account the many variables such as… Read more »
Yes, Archy, it’s often sexism and misogyny in the workplace that causes women not to go into those professions– but also the fact that women are rarely shown in those positions and girls aren’t encouraged to go into them while in school. You talk about Oz (I lived there for 10 years) and it’s honestly not as bad there as it is in the US. Or in NZ where I live now. My ex works in the mines. The ration of women to men in his mine is @ 1:3-4, which is not ideal but is not bad either. And… Read more »
Morgaine, Thoughts on the below stats from Sweden and Norway? It’s from the article I referenced. Here is the article again for further review: http://www.city-journal.org/2011/21_3_gender-gap.html. Also, As Hymowitz points out: “In 2009, the CONSAD Research Corporation, under the auspices of the Labor Department, located the gap a little lower, at 4.8 to 7.1 percent.” And then… “Sweden, in many people’s minds the world’s gender utopia, also has a de facto mommy track. Sweden has one of the highest proportions of working women in the world and a commitment to gender parity that’s close to a national religion. In addition to… Read more »
My thoughts are that most of your comment doesn’t address any of the issues I bring up in my post. My thoughts are ALSO that in most of Western Europe (and several of the former Soviet Bloc states), people make a living wage, and full-time is rarely 40 hours per week (it ranges from 35-38). 30 hours per week is often considered full-time. And in fact, people can actually live on part-time wages– in part, because they have national health care and a social welfare safety net. Without a doubt women in the US are the most disadvantaged of any… Read more »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Ledezma
Ahh Hugo Chavez
I agree it’s sad that women get put with the burden of raising kids, I do wonder though is there a benefit to spending more time with their kids in bonding, etc that could offset some of that 1million dollars lost? I think many men now would love to be the stay at home parent but still feel obliged to provide for the family, work many hours and they see that as their contribution + the nighttime/weekend daddy time. Women would benefit from a living wage, and men would benefit from increased empathy, socializing, bonding with their kids I think.… Read more »
“I agree it’s sad that women get put with the burden of raising kids” Not sure who you’re agreeing with here, Archy– I didn’t say that. Nor do I think it sad that ANYONE who wants to rear children has a burden or that it’s sad that someone has to: Women OR men. Of course someone has to. It’d be better if we all felt a responsibility toward the rearing of children in healthy, safe, gender-balanced environments. I like the old adage, It takes a village to raise a child. “Women [and their children] would benefit from a living wage,… Read more »
Trouble with “more feminism” is that often when a man tries to speak in some of the feminist spaces, he’ll be shutdown, “whataboutthemenz”, etc. I’d say they’re both feminist and MRA ideals, both needing to work together to make it happen. Seems the U.S is bad for women and men, most MRA stuff I hear about is problems in the U.S (eg selective service, vawa and male abuse help). I hope Australia is much more sane in their approach to all of these areas. One of the biggest annoyances I have is the pedophile hysteria in Aus, makes it a… Read more »
Ahhhh…You were doing so well until you mentioned Hugo. One booboo line can destroy a thousand lines of credibility.
(A) No, if my points are logical and resonate, then their credibility can’t be destroyed by other comments with which you don’t agree.
(B) Along the same lines, just because you don’t agree with someone’s political positions or status (or more likely, you read only US-based propaganda about Chavez) doesn’t mean he can’t have good ideas and be right.
Mussolini made the trains run on time. The USSR built some amazing public underground transportation systems.
“(from 2004, but since the economy has worsened, it’s a reasonable assumption that things haven’t gotten better for ANYONE):” When an economy worsens and enters recession, wealth measured in fiscal terms and assets is not lost but transfered across the population within that economy. This is illustrated by how a minority gain wealth and a majority loose wealth relative to each other. So the claim that ” things haven’t gotten better for ANYONE” is not supported by standard economy modeling supported by repeated observation over repeated economic systems for around the last 400 years. Gross Generalizations do not make for… Read more »
Fine. Way to nitpick. Things have gotten better for the 1% (or even the top 5%?).
But I don’t think (I may well be wrong, but here goes) that many of the 1% or even 5% are worried about their ability to make a living wage.
Sorry – did you just accuse people of Nitpicking?
I’m sure the date of your post was 31 December and not 1 April!
I had better check the calendar again.
What’s the difference between feminists calling someone a rape enabler because, in their ignorance, they said women should be careful when they get drunk, and an MRA who says all women are prostitutes because they expect men to pay for dinner? Aren’t they both inflammatory slurs?
Rapses: I myself have been wondering about the so-called “male privileges” frequently decried by feminists for a long while. I guess that most of us are living in a free and democratic society and not some feudal society. What exclusive rights and immunity do I have as a man which women do not have. Feminists usually complain that men comprise majority in politics and top management in business enterprises. I do not understand why feminists cannot accept the fact that the men who control the political and business establishment have achieved it though hard work. There are also many women… Read more »
5. The Wage Gap (and by that I’m talking the portion that can actually be attributed to sexism against women, not the entire up to $0.30 that’s been mindlessly parroted for the last 20 some odd years).
I know that sounds weird but on the real I’ve seen people quote that as 73, 75, 78, and 80 cents over the last year or so. Meaning either someone is recalculating it every 2-3 months or there are a lot of people out there that went to the School of Anal Mathematics (as in pulling numbers out of your ass).
I disagree that any of the points you have mentioned related to so-called male privilege. I would like to refute them point wise. 1.A guy that’s highly sexually active is praised and a woman that’s highly sexually active is scorned. You have to take this issue in stud/slut and loser/virgin paradigm. In the soccer team, the best forward player is the one who scores maximum goals while the best goalie is the one who saves the most goals. It has nothing to do with players. It is the nature of game. 2. Preference of one sex over another in job… Read more »
Rapses: 1.A guy that’s highly sexually active is praised and a woman that’s highly sexually active is scorned. You have to take this issue in stud/slut and loser/virgin paradigm. In the soccer team, the best forward player is the one who scores maximum goals while the best goalie is the one who saves the most goals. It has nothing to do with players. It is the nature of game. The difference is the goalie and the forward work under those premises because that is the nature of their jobs in the game. In other words the goalie is supposed to… Read more »
Men and women should be held to such standards.
Should be:
Men and women should not be held to such standards.
While that does happen the reverse also happens in which people that get physically violent are called names, told they are being whiny, and of course reminded that its so “unlady like” to get physically violent.
Should be:
While that does happen the reverse also happens in which women that get physically violent are called names, told they are being whiny, and of course reminded that its so “unlady like” to get physically violent.
I would like to focus on the frequent misuse of the term “male privilege.” Privilege is something which is carved in stoned and is not circumstantial. 1. Men and women are have different reproductive functions. Therefore they should have totally different dimensional units of standard. You argue whether 1 meter is longer than 1 kilogram, because they are two different dimensions, length and weight. 2. In a job interview, I cannot claim as a matter of right to be preferred over a female candidate. Hiring managers prejudice is not privilege, though I agree it might be skew the results. A… Read more »
Okay now we are getting somewhere. 1. They may be different units but that doesn’t mean they should be held to unreasonable and ultimately arbitrary standards. Would you say that a given meter stick or scale are not a real meter stick or scale because neither can be used to measure time? 2. So you’re saying that that it should hold up every time in every circumstance. I certainly agree that this does not pan out that way every single time in either direction (which is why I kept using ‘can’). 3. Same as two. 4. Oh no not trying… Read more »
“And one of those childish things adult men must put away is the need to deflect, belittle, or exaggerate women’s anger.” He left out ignore. Life’s too short to waste on someone’s rant. Unless of course you’re giving someone an outlet for venting. Otherwise, what’s the purpose of being involved? Problem solving? In my experience, that is not what is desired.
“All of this behavior reflects two things: men’s genuine fear of being challenged and confronted, and the persistence of the stereotype of feminists as being aggressive, wrathful, “man-bashers.”
This is just deeply dishonest. The first is not even a generalization, it is just projection, Hugo. You have shown that this is true over and over again. The second is also a complete lie. feminist worked long and hard to develop their reputation for man-bashing and gender bigotry. Amanda Marcotte is Exhibit A.
JIm
Amanda Marcotte is Exhibit A.?
Naaah – to my mind she’s a rather small bullet. It’s the peeps who developed the guns I would focus on! P^)
Small bullet nothing. To continue your analogy she’s a gun toter. And while going after the guns is important allow me to make another analogy. Would you expect Al Queda to just stop if the people who made AK-47s suddenly stopped making them? No they would continue with their acts of violence and terror, just with different weapons.
By the same token even if you take away the damaging, shaming, generalizing and projecting language from feminists like Hugo and Marcotte they would find some other language to continue on with.
Danny – I agree with your expansion of metaphor and analogy! I just hope that some don’t start reading up on IEDs! No matter the limits some have placed around them, they will seek ways to Transcend those limits and continue with their own peculiar and highly focused activity. If they judge personal success by how many page views and comments they get, they will seek ways to do that. As Warhole said “I’m afraid that if you look at a thing long enough, it loses all of its meaning”. Some have been looking at their own screens so long… Read more »
“Honestly, it feels like anyone on this website is afraid to criticize Amanda Marcotte and her cohorts.” I’m not! Where would you like me to start! P^) As a Blogists and person who makes a living from the net, one would expect her to have some appreciation of both the capacities of systems and also the limitations. If she does not – she’s foolish and one has to wonder if her comments and views are tainted with that issue. If she is aware of the limitations – that raises issues of deliberate manipulation, exploitation and much else including such issues… Read more »
I’m of the same mind Amber and I’ll offer evidence in support: Go take a peek at Pandagon and review the Flying Monkeys post. Take note of a poster “Funky Horns” and how he/she is treated on their home turf for simply disagreeing with a portion of the author’s premise. “Funky, your assumption that your p!nis makes you more knowledgeable than a professional humorist on what makes a joke funny has been noted, and rejected.” You simply can’t disagree in good faith if you have a penis, so it seems…and if you do, it’s only because you have a penis.… Read more »
Honestly, it feels like anyone on this website is afraid to criticize Amanda Marcotte and her cohorts. Are they funding this website in some way and you people are afraid of losing that funding? It’s like when Game Informer gives ridiculously high ratings to video games that clearly don’t deserve high ratings because they don’t want to lose the money from those gaming companies. Game Informer gives it a 10, yet the vast majority of consumers give it a 3. What Amanda Marcotte and them did to Tom was WRONG. Plain and simple. Words are not fists in the literal… Read more »
Hugo – “Referencing an old film, Yashar coined the simple term “gaslighting” ” Coined? – ERRRRR? NO! The term has been in use for quite some time! I was familiar with the term over three decades ago whilst studying at University. I hope that there is not yet another Internet Myth being created! “Anyone who doesn’t take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either.” Albert Einstein Gaslighting is in fact a well known and well documented form of Mental Manipulation and Thought control Technique. It is in fact sex/gender neutral. I have noted for some… Read more »
movie Gaslight (1944)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslight_%281944_film%29
AG – I’m very familiar with the films ( both the 1940 version and the 1944 one) . I had to study them twice at University over 30 years ago, Once dealing with Film, Theatre and Media – and the other Under Psychology. We even studied the original stage script too. We even had in-depth to discussions of the nature of “Gaslighting” featuring if Shakespear’s Hamlet. It did lead to very interesting discussions across the two academic disciplines! We used the term Gaslighting all the time, especially when studying psychology that dealt with abuse and emotional – psychological – social… Read more »
Oh and as a follow up – I was asked via a different channel – are there any Film portrayals of Women employing Gaslighting?
One that springs to mind immediately would be “Hand That Rocks The Cradle” – 1992.
One of the strap-lines for the advertising at the time sums it all up quite nicely “Trust is her weapon. Innocence her opportunity. Revenge her only desire.”
There are many other examples too.
The Privilege Argument got thrown around a bit…. Privilege wasn’t being used as it was written in the dictionary…. I did a write up on how to cope with that at my blog…. —– Well, next time you are at a blog and someone says “you are so privileged.” Just fire back like this: How do you know? Have you ever walked a day in my shoes? I doubt I can use my so called “privilege” to buy an expired soda at the 99 cent store. Is there an official criteria you are using or are you just making this… Read more »
Don’t bother bringing up the dictionary. Look at how they selectively redefined sexism…
I will bring up the dictionary….
why let someone else–who probably despises you-control the conversation, I’m only fighting for an equal footing…..
I myself have been wondering about the so-called “male privileges” frequently decried by feminists for a long while. I guess that most of us are living in a free and democratic society and not some feudal society. What exclusive rights and immunity do I have as a man which women do not have. Feminists usually complain that men comprise majority in politics and top management in business enterprises. I do not understand why feminists cannot accept the fact that the men who control the political and business establishment have achieved it though hard work. There are also many women who… Read more »
They are no longer legal privileges in this country, although there were such legal privileges up until very recently- say the 1960s and even 70s, but there are subtle social messages all the time that women are expected to do everything, while any man who helps with housework is an exceptionally good husband. When was the last time you saw a commercial for laundry detergent or floor cleaner that featured a man (other than Mr. Clean)? Maybe you as an individual are an exceptional man who does (or did in the past or will one day in the future) share… Read more »
I do object to the use of the term “male privilege” when none exists. The television commercials are full of stupid prejudices towards both men and women. That is why television is called idiot box. I assure you that I am no exceptional man but fully take care of my housework and job. Yes I don’t know any male privilege, would you kindly enlighten me of any which exist.
Have you ever asked what a man thinks, oh wait they are privileged and blind to it so their opinion is meaningless on the matter. Seeing as many feminists deny female privilege, is it safe to assume they are blind to their own privilege?
Although I’m sure you’re QUITE aware of what male privilege is, I’ll just post this for you and others so you can’t claim not to know. And BTW, it’s written by a MAN:
http://www.xyonline.net/content/unpacking-male-privilege-jockstrap
http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2008/06/08/female-privilege/
Stating privilege lists is not an argument.
“Although I’m sure you’re QUITE aware of what male privilege is,….”
Why is this term “Male Privilege” being treated as a concrete matter when it is based upon a philosophical construct?
Simply stating that something exists is not the same as it actually existing!
y’all missed the point….
What was the point?
All I keep hearing is shrill subjugation! P^)
It does make getting any points across rather hard!
Good point. And I have to admit that despite that selective redefinition of sexism (and I quite literally think it was redefined with the purpose of granting women immunity to being called sexist or having their words/actions/etc… called sexist) I still take the occasional moment to respond to such claims. Its nice little combo really. Redefine a word so that it can never be applied to you and then when someone calls you on it accuse them of gaslighting. That way you never have to run one of those “privilege checks” you spend so much time telling other people to… Read more »
good point, Danny.
Danny
That’s why some feminists are able get away with fooling ignorant people.. Statements they make like “feminists are opposed to all forms of sexism” is usually taken at face value.
True Beste. I was rereading some of the stuff here this morning and just had to drop a new tumblr post.
Feminist Equality…..?
Purpose – Eliminate all forms of sexism.
Step One – Deny the exist of all forms of sexism that aren’t male against female.
SMH
Its real easy to claim progress in getting rid of something when your starting point is the denial of nearly 50% of that something ain’t it?
Thank you for discussing this difficult subject….I have found over the years (I have known my husband for over 20 years) that a man feels like he has to win every conversation (like some of his friends) or if confronted with some bad behavior, my husband gets all defensive and exits the room hastily….face-to face conversation with my husband, I think, feels too confrontational to my husband and therefore, we have avoided even talking about some of the most critical issues ( I have been dangerously silent on several issues and try a more subtle, indirect approach to get my… Read more »
“.I have found over the years (I have known my husband for over 20 years) that a man feels like he has to win every conversation (like some of his friends) or if confronted with some bad behavior, my husband gets all defensive and exits the room hastily”
Sounds like many women I have known. Did you mean to generalize men here? or did you mean some men? “that a man feels like” sounds to be assuming most/if not all men are like this? Seems to clash with your last sentence if that is what you meant?
So…let’s keep the tone of discourse civil….let’s acknowledge that we don’t know everything about the other person’s viewpoint or life experiences until we hear them out…. After getting quite uncivil myself this is something I’m trying to adhere to. My problem is when folks come along like this and act like all the fire is coming from only one side. Hell the way Hugo is acting here you’d think that no feminist in the history of the entire movement has ever held any hostility towards anyone therefore any hostility towards any part of the movemnt is made up. I’m all… Read more »
“Thank you for discussing this difficult subject….I have found over the years (I have known my husband for over 20 years) that a man feels like he has to win every conversation (like some of his friends) or if confronted with some bad behavior, my husband gets all defensive and exits the room hastily….”
That describes my ex-wife to the letter. Leia, you are quite ignorant about women.
A Hugo Schwyzer article? That may have been the shortest “retirement” in blogging history. I find it highly ironic that while Hugo is in full denial mode about feminist bullying, in the “feminist blogosphere” he’s under full attack by the mob. Check out Feministe or do a Google Blogs search for “Hugo Schwyzer” and you’ll see what I mean. So, more than a little bit of denial here. And while, yes, angry words in the blogosphere rarely add up to physical attack (something that’s true in general, not just vis a vis feminists), blogswarming and generalized campaigns against one’s reputation… Read more »
D’oh – missed the fine print about this being written “pre-retirement”. My other points stand, of course.
iacb,
Where is your other post
Looks like it’s floundering in moderation and only I can see it.
I am guessing that it’s the same post that’s at your blog. Must be in moderation because of the urls.
🙂
Hugo was not liked at Feministe, huh? I’ll have to look at that.
Interesting set of comment and insights as to how some are using the net in ways that are antisocial and manipulative and even dangerous in so many ways. Just as it took many years for people to wake up to the issue of grooming and sexual predation, wider issues of misuse and even criminal versatility are still awaiting the same attention. Social Networking has its plus side, expect when it’s being used in anti-cocial ways and even to extremes. “And about over-privileged self-proclaimed “experts” and “leaders” talking all over everybody else’s voices. And that, of course, is not a good… Read more »