I often enjoy, and am often really frustrated by, Mistress Matisse’s column in the Seattle Stranger. This one, however, is bang-on and deals with an issue that people don’t talk about enough. (Well, we do around here, but that’s kind of our thing.)
She’s absolutely right that there’s a reading of male sexual presentation that we often overlook; we tend to think of it as homoerotic because of the assumed male gaze, but it’s also often presented as ridiculous or comical. Ha-ha, a guy thinks he can be sexually attractive! Talk about crazy, amirite?
Let’s look at two very different male stripping scenes for a moment.
First there’s this one from American Pie, a movie I remain fond of, despite its later becoming a dismal franchise. It has a nice implicit female gaze going on in the form of Nadia, but there’s no question that it’s essentially a joke. Indeed, the very existence of Nadia’s female gaze is presented as a that-never-happens joke: It’s so weird that she’d want to see Jason Biggs dancing naked! What a crazy turn of events!
This one from The Full Monty, however, is unequivocally positive. The movie is a comedy, but this scene isn’t the funny part, it’s the life-affirming happy ending. These men, all ages and types, are dead sexy, and everyone thinks so! Let’s all cheer for them!
(Really, all of The Full Monty is an interesting examination of roles of masculinity, as it’s a tale of economically displaced men who become strippers because there’s no jobs going. It reminds me of Sam’s insightful comment from a while back about men who can’t imagine a scenario where they’re actually wanted, and thus focus too much on being needed. The Full Monty is about a group of men who’ve been told by their society that they are not needed, and who instead discover that they’re still wanted. But that’s getting sidetracked.)
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: ladies, tell the men in your life that they’re sexy. Mainstream culture sure as hell isn’t going to do it.
@Darque says: “Let’s try this on for size: You said “and I know for a fact that your disagreement that the less physical way of being found sexy can be appealing is untrue” I am repeating this again because I’m incredulous that you could find a disagreement with an opinion untrue.” Your opinion was relating to a fact. It is a FACT that the less physical way of being found sexy can be appealing. I know this fact because I have had guys be sexually interested in me for reasons other than my looks, and it was a good feeling.… Read more »
Wow, I get 6 direct name mentions, and a sentence about how much of a sexist jerk I am for a post that I made halfway upthread. Not to mention that I was simply defending my opinion. Let’s try this on for size: You said “and I know for a fact that your disagreement that the less physical way of being found sexy can be appealing is untrue” I am repeating this again because I’m incredulous that you could find a disagreement with an opinion untrue. I said (and I will continue to say) that guys who value a woman… Read more »
“I don’t want to play with you. I never did, I only answered because you made a personal attack on me and came up with a bunch of accusations about my moral character…” That’s a real Greek drama you’ve got going in your head there. Frame it as “personal attacks” if you wish, and keep playing the victim. I as well as others am upset with you because you make misandrist statements such as the one I highlighted in my previous post, and we come off a bit harshly, then so be it. The problem is not your position, otherwise… Read more »
@pocketjacks: “AB, There’s a lot wrong in your posts. For starters, you’re trying to play the victim now”’ No, if the feelings I express are called ‘playing the victim’ then I’ve been that way from the beginning. I was pissed when Darque responded to my statement “the less physical way in which men are often found sexually attractive can be appealing too”, a statement which not only doesn’t claim to be universal (“can be” as opposed to “is”) but is also based on my own experiences (as a woman who has been found attractive for non-physical qualities), by trying to… Read more »
Jessica, “I don’t deny the cultural meme that women are considered “more beautiful” than men, as a whole. I just don’t think that’s relevant to this discussion – or at least to the points I was trying to make, and the thrust of this thread, which I thought was about people’s feelings of attractiveness.” I have a feeling we agree far more than we disagree here. I agree that both genders are equally insecure about their appeal to the opposite sex. When I say that “the average, unmarked man is seen as uglier than the average, unmarked woman”, that doesn’t… Read more »
AB, There’s a lot wrong in your posts. For starters, you’re trying to play the victim now by saying all you’ve done is talk about your own experiences, and “you can’t attack me for my experiences!!!!” Except… much of “your” experiences are not your own but those of the men you know (or at least what you claim about them), and the nasty motivations you’ve imputed on them that you couldn’t possibly be privy to. (Funny because ascribing motivations is what you accused me of doing.) Such as: [they’re] more inclined to go “Punish the bitch! Punish the bitch!” …… Read more »
Jim:
Unfortunately, Consensus on what is traditionally “attractive” leads us away from the more average woman/man/intersex (especially the intersex!) being used to sell what are at best aspirational products.
Like, “Drape tits over that Stereo! Dudebros will go mad for it!” or “Drip yoghurt on them abs! Hormonal chicks will cream their drawers for it!”
I dream of a world where a better percentage of people (like, 90% or over) are considered, if not beautiful, then at least “Un-ugly”. (Ungly? does that even work?)
Uncalledfor, I agree with Ozy.
They says sex sells products, but that’s not what’s going on. They aren’t selling sex, they’re selling sexual and emotional frustration.
Related to “Cum-dumpster” argument: Both the male “seed” and the female “receptor” (help me out with a better analogy/euphemism here, that just feels so wrong) are sacred and wonderful, IMO.
Zie who fights with me shall be my blood-sibling. All who love me unconditionally shall see their love returned.
And ladies, copliment a random guy on the street today. Ya never know…
A bit related to the cum-bucket thing, and the men-aren’t-sexy thing, and the men’s sexuality isn’t valuable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQlIhraqL7o
I feel like that is pretty representative (even if caricatured) of some of the major attitudes our culture has about sex and men and women. (Still love the song, though, ’cause it’s hilarious… and in fact it seems like they’re making fun of those attitudes, too.)
Uncalledfor, I think your analysis is one of the most on-point in this thread. 🙂
Jessica: “both men AND women are subjected to an unrealistic standard of beauty, and advertising specifically designed to make us feel unattractive (so we’ll buy stuff). If you haven’t noticed how the latter is aimed at both genders, then honestly, you just haven’t been paying attention very well.” I certainly agree with the “make us feel unattractive, so we’ll buy stuff” part. But within that advertising system there is still a big, decidedly gendered difference in experiences. When I go to a magazine stand (yours may differ), most of the offerings are from one of two types: (i) mags selling… Read more »
@ AB “She referred to her nether area as a sewage.” Sewage usually refers to liquid garbage. Therefore what’s she’s referring to are the secretions coming off her vagina. And he referred to his ‘cum’ as something that belonged in a dumpster, aka. garbage. “The man did not refer to part of himself being dirty, he referred to the women.” Is a woman a garbage container until she has cum inside her? No. She’s not. It’s the act of receiving ejaculate that turns her into a dumpster. Ejaculate does not correspond to spitting. Spitting is not a unique marker of… Read more »
@typhonblue: “Fine, AB, I’ll let you clear up the misunderstanding for me.” That’s very gracious of you. “Do you believe that most men won’t pay attention to women if they don’t have a sexual interest in them?” No. But in my experience, it is more common for men to mainly show the same degree of interest and regard to women as they show to men based on the woman’s physical attractiveness. Perhaps homosocial women are merely less obvious, because they’re usually approached rather than approaching, so they don’t spend a lot of time acting friendly or interested in men they… Read more »
@ AB
“Even disregarding all the reasons this could be affected by something other than attraction, it’s worth noticing that when it came to showing interest, the women’s actual behaviour was less discriminatory than the men’s.”
Or it was discriminatory based on other factors.
@Jessica:
“Basically, attractiveness does not equal beauty. Just because men as a gender are less beautiful overall than women doesn’t make them any less attractive (as a gender) to women”
I can’t help thinking about that OKCupid statistic about women evaluating most men as being below average in appearance. Even disregarding all the reasons this could be affected by something other than attraction, it’s worth noticing that when it came to showing interest, the women’s actual behaviour was less discriminatory than the men’s.
@ AB Fine, AB, I’ll let you clear up the misunderstanding for me. Do you believe that most men won’t pay attention to women if they don’t have a sexual interest in them? “That I have never seen you speculate about the pain of a misandrist, a feminist, or even a woman, to the same extent you do with this guy, despite him being more openly misogynitic than most of the people you’ve accused of misandry.” LOLWUT? I said he’s probably self-loathing. I think his statements are so obviously self-derogatory that it’s hilarious. I think he should be laughed at… Read more »
@pocketjacks: “You came in here denying that there’s a problem. Don’t pretend that you came in here trying to” I’m going to cut you off right there. If you have nothing to add except evaluations of my personal character and motivation, and if you believe you do not need to listen to what I say or evaluate my actual words objectively, but are instead free to infer whatever the hell you want because you know my real motivation, there’s no point. I made some very concrete, and ungendered, points, not responding to anyone’s feelings of experiences but based solely on… Read more »
@ Uncalledfor: I described both of the types of experience you refer to in my post. I just didn’t posit them as being clearly gendered, i.e. women experience messages of unattractiveness from the media & advertising, while men experience messages of unattractiveness from interactions with women. I think this dichotomy is ridiculous – both men AND women experience such messages from interactions with people of the opposite gender (as at least one woman on this very thread clearly described experiencing throughout her life, and I have as well), and both men AND women are subjected to an unrealistic standard of… Read more »
Oops, I should have said “just because men as a gender are CONSIDERED less beautiful overall…” – and I should probably have defined the word “beautiful” more, because how I’m defining it based on what I said above makes it non-synonymous with attractive, but others could totally define it differently.
– “Jessica, are you seriously denying that perceptions of physical attractiveness aren’t gendered? That there isn’t this general idea out there that “women are more beautiful than men”?” I don’t deny the cultural meme that women are considered “more beautiful” than men, as a whole. I just don’t think that’s relevant to this discussion – or at least to the points I was trying to make, and the thrust of this thread, which I thought was about people’s feelings of attractiveness. Yes women spend FAR more effort (and money) making themselves look “beautiful”, and are far more likely to wear… Read more »
“After reading the whole back and forth (whew!), I’ve come to the conclusion that the problem of most men not feeling sexually attractive is not at all a gendered thing, but the EXACT SAME THING THAT MOST WOMEN FEEL. All the examples cited in pop culture only underline how women are MADE to feel unattractive because the standard of female attractiveness is set so ridiculously high. And as others have mentioned, while many women get sexually harassed (unwelcome & disrespectful attention), that does not in any way make them feel attractive. And the kind of attention that does make someone… Read more »
“How come pretty much every man on this thread can go on and on about how perfectly wonderful it would be to be seen as a body to slake someone’s sexual need, despite many of them admitting to not even having tried it, and yet a woman can’t talk about how pleasurable and validating it can feel to attract people based on non-physical qualities, despite having actual experiences with it? I’m not saying you need to feel good about it, but please stop acting as if that means it can’t be good for anyone.” You came in here denying that… Read more »
I didn’t notice Sisyphus’s post before (I was too busy answering all the posts directed at me), but I’ll second (or rather, third) it. I don’t find myself disgusting because I contain spit and menstrual blood, even though both of these fluids are considered gross and are inside some very intimate parts of my body. I also know my boyfriend has ingested both those fluids, and I don’t think less of him because of it, but I have no trouble seeing scenarios where it could be considered humiliating for him to be exposed to, or ingest, spit and menstrual blood,… Read more »
@Jim: “Lie? No. But you might try understanding people’s points and responding to them now and then. What your experience has been is completely irrelevant to Darque’s point. he is tlaking about his experience, and there is no reason why your and his expreiences would have any point of similarity. It is not as if we are talking about some simple-minded Platonic ideal of Appealing.” I am not the one responding to Darque, he is the one responding to me, and my experiences. This line of conversation started when I, September 24, 2011 at 9:25 pm, said the following: “And… Read more »