Trigger warning for discussion of suicide.
Recently, I came across this very interesting study about suicide rates as they relate to unemployment. Since I basically read everything with my Masculism Goggles on now (seriously, I do, it’s terrible), I happened to notice a few interesting statistics.
A 10% increase in the unemployment rate (for instance, from 5% to 5.5%) increases the suicide rate by 1.47% for men. However, the increase in the unemployment rate has no statistically significant effects on the suicide rate for women. This, frankly, is a crisis for men, especially given that the unemployment rate has risen immensely during the recession with little to no hope of a decrease in sight. Thousands of suicides have occurred that otherwise wouldn’t.
Why are men more likely to commit suicide when they lose their jobs? Presumably it’s not because women are naturally more resilient and able to cope with the problems life throws at them, or have a natural skill (possibly evolved because of cavelayoffs in cavecorporations) in working out how to satisfy all their creditors when there’s only enough money to keep the lights on or pay the mortgage, not both.
Feminists have long discussed the toxic narrative of women as “sex objects”: in general, our culture encourages women to have their sense of self-worth depend entirely on their youth, beauty, thinness and general fuckability, as opposed to their dignity as human beings. What has been less noticed is the comparable narrative of men as “success objects.” In general, our culture encourages men to have their sense of self-worth depend entirely on their wealth, income, profession and general ability to provide to those dependent on them, as oppposed to their dignity as human beings.
The success object narrative can be seen throughout the culture. Sayings like “it’s as easy to fall in love with a rich man as a poor man.” Occasional New York Times articles getting up in arms about how a quarter of wives make more than their husbands and this is clearly emasculating and horrible. The expectation that men pay for the first date. The shaming of unemployed men as lazy layabout loser slackers who play video games all day. And, tragically, in suicide rates.
If a man’s sense of self-worth is tied to his employment– to having a prestigious career, a high income, a nice house and car and possibly a pool– then when he loses his employment he essentially loses his self-esteem and purpose in life, not to mention his sense of himself as a man. To deal with that, in addition to the stresses of money problems and the constant rejection of job applications that never seem to lead to jobs, is a lot. That’s quite enough to drive some men to suicide.
Especially if, as can happen, he doesn’t have adequate support from friends, family and romantic partners. The success object narrative pervades society. Those closest to a man may also think of him as somehow “lesser” or “inferior” because he lost his job and his ability to support his family. That’s… not exactly productive to the goal of maintaining a man’s mental health and sense of confidence in himself and his masculinity.
It seems to me that two goals may reduce the rate of suicide among men related to unemployment and so should be core to the masculist movement:
1) Reduce the unemployment rate. As voters, masculists should hold their elected officials responsible for high unemployment rates and be willing to vote people out of office until someone solves the employment crisis. Being informed and reading articles from a wide variety of economists can provide insight into which candidates have the strongest plans for economic recovery.
2) No longer tie men’s masculinity to their employment status. A man is equally worthy whether he is employed or unemployed– or stays at home, is retired, is going back to school or spends his free time saving the world from tentacle monsters. After a man is laid off, he is exactly as worthy as he was before he got the little pink slip. After all, the net worth that really matters is not in the bank, but in your character.
Oddly enough, my dad wants me to be both the Manliness Stereotype and the Perfect Lady Stereotype at the same time. No, really. He went berserk when he realized I was not going to earn more money than he makes, and he’s still trying to come to terms with that. But he also doesn’t understand that sometimes I just want to wear jeans and mens’ T-shirts and play video games. This is juvenile and Not Feminine Enough, so I got flak for that.
SOOOO glad I moved out. The pressure of conforming to BOTH ideals is insane.
Hi dungone, “I have a feeling that “complex” means “convoluted”. The man claims to have a theory of suicide that explains why Kurt Cobain killed himself and how the 9/11 attacks happened based on his neat and tidy 3 ingredients that describe all suicide. He can cite as many studies as he wants but at the end of the day he’s pushing a theoretical model of his own invention. ” It doesn’t mean convoluted. Your “feeling” isn’t enough, you haven’t read the book. HIs theory is sound. Read the book. He IS pushing a theoretical model, one that he developed… Read more »
Dungone, your accusations are hilarious for all sorts of reasons, but the main one is that they bear no relation to what I’ve said; “twisting everyone’s words”? Seriously, go back and read Schala’s and then what you twisted them into. Or what you repeatedly twist mine into. Or at least have the decency to point out where I am “shoving therapy down men’s throats when they don’t want it”, as I haven’t done that, either. I suspect what’s actually going on here is that in the past, a woman has suggested to you that you go to therapy, and you… Read more »
@C, you’re chasing your own tail here. Now you’re mixing up depression with ALL mental health issues combined. The fact remains, quite soundly, that women suffer from depression at twice the rate of men. You’re also completely missing the whole entire point – which remains as sound as every – that men may not actually benefit from therapy for depression as much as women do. You’re twisting everyone’s words to the point where it’s not even funny. Rose was suggesting, quite literally to women such as yourself, that maybe, just maybe, you should stop shoving therapy down men’s throats when… Read more »
May I remind you that Amanda Rose is the author of the study? Why in the world would you say that she wrote a study and then contradicted herself in her own press release? Let’s look at that quote again, highlighting all the hedging and prevarications: “Women may really push their partners to share pent-up worries and concerns because they hold expectations that talking makes people feel better. But their partners may just not be interested and expect that other coping mechanisms will make them feel better. Men may be more likely to think talking about problems will make the… Read more »
Plus, if depression tends to present differently in men (more “acting out”, more alcoholism as per the psychologyinfo link dungone posted) I have my doubts that doctors are going to recognize it as well as they do with women.
“Until you can explain to me why this is all false, can we just accept it as the prevailing scientific knowledge?”
Much for the same reason men report less DV and less rape when framed as a crime. They don’t view stuff done to them as crimes unless it involves extreme force or obvious theft.
“And yet the study controlled for that and and stated quite clearly that the boys had no negative expectations that were any different than that of girls. We just went over this…”
Expecting nothing-at-all is not a negative expectation, it’s the absence of expectations.
Schala, I agree. Society tells men to “suck it up” when they are physically hurt. I’ve even known a man who ignored a broken bone for weeks because “it didn’t hurt that badly”. What are we teaching men about their health? That it’s not a priority and that their bodies are not valuable. Same thing goes for mental health, just “man up” and keep on going till the breaking point. It’s no wonder that men are underdiagnosed with depression and overrepresented in suicide statistics. By that measure, I think men can learn something from women when it comes to coping… Read more »
@Schala Diagnosed depression? There’s your problem then. Men don’t consult as much, don’t get diagnosed as anything then. Citation? This is just a sexist myth. Men are stupid, immature, emotionally undeveloped brutes. Right? Anything that happens to them is their fault because they’re not women… And you give no credit to scientific studies: http://www.personalityresearch.org/papers/mule.html Do you honestly, and I mean honestly, believe that the only studies of depression that have ever been done come from self-reported visits to a psychiatrist? A 5 second Google search contradicts you. From my earlier link: Major depression and dysthymia affect twice as many women… Read more »
“What exactly does this mean to you? It means that both sexes expected that their problems would be listened to and that people would try to help them. It means, that contrary to what you’ve been saying, boys did not fear negative consequences as a result of talking about their problems. ”
And boys probably have it reinforced that people in general don’t give a shit about their issues, while girls might have somewhat more help, reinforcing the perception that it helps.
“I said, quite frankly, that women suffer from depression twice as much as men, so it strikes me as ironic that we’re having a society-wide conversation about what men could learn from women about dealing with depression whereas we’re not having a similar discussion going in the other direction.”
Diagnosed depression? There’s your problem then. Men don’t consult as much, don’t get diagnosed as anything then.
@Cheradenine, girls and boys both endorsed positive expectations more strongly than negative expectations What exactly does this mean to you? It means that both sexes expected that their problems would be listened to and that people would try to help them. It means, that contrary to what you’ve been saying, boys did not fear negative consequences as a result of talking about their problems. Here’s the press release: “Women may really push their partners to share pent-up worries and concerns because they hold expectations that talking makes people feel better. But their partners may just not be interested and expect… Read more »
@f, you’re going way overboard and shoving words in my mouth. You have my sympathy for any and all personal pain you went through, but please understand that just because someone doesn’t share your point of view doesn’t mean that they must not know what it’s like. Just for your information, I have dealt with several personal friends who committed suicide, have discovered the bodies of others who did it, have helped more friends cope with suicidal tendencies in many different contexts, and generally have been exposed to it more than any one person should have to in one lifetime.… Read more »
Interestingly, it turns out that the press release previously linked to (with its claim “Males believe discussing problems is a waste of time”), did not accurately reflect the contents of the scientific paper it was based on. In fact, the scientific paper notes, in reference to talking about problems:
Also, dungone, this: Perhaps you choose to engage in self-destructive behavior because you feel that someone owes you something instead of taking responsibility for yourself Is pretty much the exact tone of depressive self-talk. “I don’t deserve to find help because I need to take responsibility for myself”. “Everyone else can cope, why can’t I do it all myself?” Well, personally I do think that society owes sick people the chance of treatment. Depression is an illness of the mind, not a pathetic lack of willpower. When I went to therapy, I WAS cashing in something I was owed –… Read more »
@dungone, no offense but I really think you are laboring under some misconceptions regarding how depression works. For some reason you appear to be perceiving severe depression as something that’s more “female”, or something? The fact is that if people are miserable but able to use constructive coping mechanisms like going for a jog, etc, they are simply not as depressed as those who end up sitting in a dim room and contemplating suicide. Arguing that lacking working coping mechanisms counts as “choosing not to deal with it” is kind of ableist and ridiculous, also? The depressed people you know… Read more »
@PM, His research on “practice” is much more complex than that, and also has to do with violent life experiences I have a feeling that “complex” means “convoluted”. The man claims to have a theory of suicide that explains why Kurt Cobain killed himself and how the 9/11 attacks happened based on his neat and tidy 3 ingredients that describe all suicide. He can cite as many studies as he wants but at the end of the day he’s pushing a theoretical model of his own invention. Why do people bother with pharmaceutical suicide attempts, when they have such a… Read more »
Ah, I see that I just used “failure” when I told yoou not to use it. That kind of language is pervasive. I apologize for the error.
Hi dungone, thanks for responding! “PM, most forms of suicide are copycat acts. It’s not like you can become an expert suicider by trying out different strategies to see which is the most innovative approach. ” Nope. “People look for ways to kill themselves that they believe have worked well for others. The removal of method can only offer temporary relief, until new methods have a chance to spread by word of mouth. ” None of this is true, or most suicide attempts would actually end in death. Why do people bother with pharmaceutical suicide attempts, when they have such… Read more »
@f., point very well taken about destructive behavior as a coping mechanism. I thought of that as well. But in that case, talking to someone about your problems serves the purpose of coming up with healthier diversions, such as jogging or watching a movie. I’m all for talking when it results in constructive solutions. I’m also not sure if self-destructive behavior affects one sex more or less than the other. Just as an example of a non-talking success story, I know a woman who suffered from a severe eating disorder who tried therapy and tried support groups and quit because… Read more »
@Cheradenine, I recognize that your thoughts on men’s mental health issues don’t preclude them from sticking to men’s approaches if they work. What I took issue with was that you turned to making female approaches more widely available even when handed evidence to the contrary. The incredible thing is that women are rarely ever told that they should learn more from men when comes to their mental health (work harder, make use of diversions, spend less energy maintaining large social networks, etc). Usually with women, we can get right down to how other people should better accommodate their needs. But… Read more »
@f.: Yeah, the damage done to a lot of people by “diet pills” of the era was catastrophic. Elizabeth Taylor and Judy Garland are two examples everyone knows, but Elvis is definitely on that list too. Legendary comics publisher Bill Gaines was on the same kinds of pills, and people say his testimony before Congress in 1954 was so bad because he was basically on an amphetamine crash. Folks who knew Gaines said that his work and his outlook improved a lot when he quit the pills and decided he’d just enjoy being a big fat fella. @dungone: I don’t… Read more »
Schala, it’s pretty disturbing when you consider that anti-appetite pills of that era were pretty much all amphetamines.
I mean a serious actor, not a “I sing and have girls” which he made dozens of.