In reeling drunkenly from one blog to another, I stumbled across this charming post over at Post-Modern Enlightenment, in which the author takes down a pro-bullying article by a right-winger.
Yes, people write pro-bullying articles.
Yeah, I don’t fucking know either. Anyway, it’s a good read, go enjoy.
Dr. Anonymous:
I have no support for the MRAs either, among my lack of support is their constant fixation with what ‘is natural’ and forcing people into their square world view. That doesn’t mean I support feminism in it’s current incarnation of ‘white middle classed woman telling everybody else about their privileges and how she herself has none’.
Your exchange with TB aside how did you come up with this from what I’ve said on this thread, or did you mean to point that at someone else?
SpudTater:
That was my thought as well. True bullying (whether by a single kid or a group) isn’t a one-off incident. It’s a campaign. How one handles a single bully or a one-off incident is bound to be different than how one attempts to handle gangs and repeated harrasment.
@ En annan A voice for men has come down rather firmly on a non-partisan, anti-conservative, anti-chivlary side. Men’s Rights(large, non-partisan, progressive) on reddit has been targeted by the subreddit Rights4Men(small, conservative) because it was too LGBT inclusive. Admittedly there is a huge push for conservative poseurs to pass off a superficially pro-mra stance in order to peddle their politics. But none of the big names(well maybe W.F.Price and Pierce Harlan however Pierce appears to keep his conservative politics relatively separate from his advocacy) are conservatives. Not Warren Farrel. Not Stephan Baskerville. Not Glenn Sacks. Not Robert Franklin. Not Paul… Read more »
SpudTater, “Is it just me, or do most of these bullying apologists have no idea what bullying actually is?” Yeah, that jumped out at me in the linked column too. Adams makes it quite clear that, growing up, he had the confidence and self-esteem to vigorously stand up for himself, the physical power to repel and deter aggressors, and sufficient social standing that it was acceptable for him to actually do so. He was the polar opposite of the sort of kids most likely to be bullied in every respect. I don’t think Adams actually wants kids who are frequently… Read more »
Is it just me, or do most of these bullying apologists have no idea what bullying actually is? The original author claims to have been bullied at school, and then quotes one incident where he got into a fight with another boy. That’s not bullying. It’s a culture of violence, and it’s worth examining, but it has very little in common with the experiences of children who actually have endured serious bullying. True bullying is characterised by a campaign of constant intimidation that wears down your spirit, that whittles away all self-esteem, that teaches you that whatever you do, you… Read more »
@tychonblue
Then the intersection between MRA and conservative seems to be rather large. How big is the group of non-conservative MRAs, and yes I have read on the spearhead and antimisandry.
@ Dr. Anonymous
“I have no support for the MRAs either, among my lack of support is their constant fixation with what ‘is natural’ and forcing people into their square world view. ”
Interesting. I think you’re mixing up MRAs with conservatives here. IMHE MRAs are generally focused on disadvantages that men face, full stop. That’s about the only point of commonality there is between all the different subsets. (And then there are those who address men’s disadvantages in order to prosthelytize some philosophy of life or other.)
People like Mike Adams always makes me wonder. Would he be just as supportive of ‘fighting back’ when it turns out his beloved son has no problem perpetrating physical assault, and this ends with his son being on the wrong end of a shotgun, after his victims finaly had enough. Or what would he say when his son comes home crippled after he picked a fight with someone who took judo for five years. @Danny I have no support for the MRAs either, among my lack of support is their constant fixation with what ‘is natural’ and forcing people into… Read more »
“This is that Romantic influence showing; Romanticism was counter-Enlightenment in the way that it was focused backwards, on simpler times, where as Enlightenment had it’s head on right, and was looking forward into the future. The romantic roots of his argument are showing already.” To reject the idea that there is any virtue is suffering is to reject progress? Ergo that which diminishes suffering is progress? I don’t like the implications of your argument. And he’s throwing back to the Modernist Era, the fifties, not the romantic era of the 1800’s. If anyone produced a body of art that had… Read more »
Re Valerie:
Impressive. You seem to think you know a lot about what I believe, in some extremely huge assumptions based off of the fact that I condemned Mike Adams for looking backwards and glorifying a by-gone era that probably never existed except in his own head, and called it a “romantic trait” – a trait of romantic philosophy. Therefore, I don’t think it’s morally wrong to inflict suffering. I just want to see it eliminated (because I’m what, four? I think that’s actually possible?)
@Enigma of Post-Modern Enlightenment Therefore Mary Shelly is the problem? There are a lot of reasons to pick apart the essay in question, but a use of romanticism isn’t one of them. Without romanticism I’d have to buy in to the people who tell me that being queer is something we will one day cure (because why would anyone ‘choose’ to suffer prejudice?) Your unambiguous anti-romanticism denies the beauty that is reclaimed from suffering, that says that suffering must in all cases be eliminated, as opposed to regarding the intentional infliction of suffering as a moral wrong. The two are… Read more »
Well high there! I’m said blogger, and I just happened to backtrack here. I’m very flattered that you’d link to my article – thanks 🙂 I didn’t link because Townhall didn’t need the traffic. I’ll do that from time to time, if the website is notorious enough. My point was basically this: society can only work by having the tools in place to help people defend themselves. You won’t get anywhere if by defending yourself you put yourself into even more trouble because you’re a social minority. The thing that Adams’ kin repeatedly misunderstand (and it’s to be expected when… Read more »
Toysolider: “Noah and Danny, I think the author’s points was a mix of both your interpretations of it. The guy seems to endorse it because he thinks it teaches boys to defend themselves. That is not an unsound position, but it is also is not a practical one. ” I truly doubt the method of “standing up” that he thinks kids will learn is how you are supposed to do it in a functioning society. I’ll outline the adult responses to physical assault or harassment, and its easy to see. If someone assaults you the correct response is 1) Retreat… Read more »
I sometimes wonder just what could motivate people to support bullying. But there are cultural and institutional structures that support bullying. In practice, they may not support the bullies, but they certainly blame the victims/survivors. It’s not the beating that disrupts class, but the victim’s screams. And it is often the same victims/survivors year after year. The short kid one year is likely to be the short kid the next. The autistic kid one year is likely to be the autistic kid the next. The queer kid one year is likely to be the queer kid the next. The somehow-seems-different… Read more »
Having been bullied I have a strong recollection of where my fear came from. My fear came not from my peers (what could they do to me?) but from the faculty that encouraged this bullying. Not overtly and they were well meaning… but let’s be honest who are you going to believe, the 14 girls in the classroom or the 1 boy who seems to be in trouble every week? “I didn’t see nuthin'” *slams door* Interestingly I dated one of those bullies for a time years after the fact and she couldn’t even remember why she did it. She… Read more »
Part of the bullying thing also involves two other types of people besides the bully and the person being bullied. Those who stand up on behalf of the person being bullied and those people who act as enablers for the bully. These are people I’d try to address. Get them to step up or sit down as the case may be. Personally I’ve played all four roles. I’ve learned a lot from my experiences. I’ve also learned that people (in general) seem to ‘forget’ how much something hurt. So it’s hard for some blogger somewhere to maybe remember how he… Read more »
Toysolider: “The guy seems to endorse it because he thinks it teaches boys to defend themselves. That is not an unsound position, but it is also is not a practical one. Plenty of bullied boys grow up to become bullied men. They learn to be victims because going along with it causes much less pain than fighting back.” But are they victims because they want to be? Or because of what “Fighting Back” means and how its taught to them? When we think “Fighting Back”, too much of it for boys comes from the physical aspect. They’re always told “Give… Read more »
Noah and Danny, I think the author’s points was a mix of both your interpretations of it. The guy seems to endorse it because he thinks it teaches boys to defend themselves. That is not an unsound position, but it is also is not a practical one. Plenty of bullied boys grow up to become bullied men. They learn to be victims because going along with it causes much less pain than fighting back. Others become bullies themselves. Others hurt or kill themselves. The man’s comments remind me of how some people recall getting spanked as children. They look back… Read more »
I get what you say there noah. I guess I’m just odd because I read that and got “survival of the fittest, and if they aren’t fit fuck ’em.”. Eagle: I still have a problem with having victims physically stand up to their bullies. Even some who support anti-bullying still believe a few karate lessons or weight lifting will even the odds. True. Ultimately all that does is support the concept of might makes right. Not everyone who has problems with some feminist theories is a staunch conservative or a right-wing nutcase, Valerie. That’s a big mistake those on the… Read more »
@Eagle33 I’m a staunch conservative… just an anachronistically left-wing one.
Valerie: “@Eagle33 I misjudged you, I thought you were actually one of those social-’conservatives’ (PS actual conservatives discard clearly harmful institutions, these people are just nutty fundies) I’m always glad to see someone who is willing to take a nuanced stand on gender issues.” Not everyone who has problems with some feminist theories is a staunch conservative or a right-wing nutcase, Valerie. That’s a big mistake those on the left or devout feminists make when looking at their opponents. That’s why I don’t align myself with feminists or the left either. They’re guilty of othering any opposition as the right-wing… Read more »
Danny: “But never the less it sounds to me more like he’s not so much pro-bully as “let the bullying victims fend for themselves, I had to”. That to me says that, while he may have taken a physical stand against a tormentor, he didn’t completely work his way through what happened to him. Yeah he fought back but did he really get the chance to confront the reasons behind the bullying he suffered? Was there any sort of support to help him work through it and decide to work on helping other bullying victims? I wager not.” I still… Read more »
@Danny: I think this bit: He told me specifically that I needed to be aware of the fact that in 21st Century America one out of five boys gets bullied in school on a “regular basis.” I don’t know where he got that statistic but it really made me ashamed of my country. We need to do better. When I was a kid back in 20th Century America everyone got bullied in school. Those really were the good old days. …is unequivocally pro-bullying. He refers to it, specifically, as a universally good thing. If you ask me, the Townhall article… Read more »
Also, I’m sorry, but forget the author of the reply’s rubbishing of romanticism… to say without pain there is no worthwhile art is not to say that we should encourage pain… pain will propagate itself quite nicely.
Does that blogger not have a link to the source page for what they are responding to (it might be there and I just can’t see the link in the post)? But never the less it sounds to me more like he’s not so much pro-bully as “let the bullying victims fend for themselves, I had to”. That to me says that, while he may have taken a physical stand against a tormentor, he didn’t completely work his way through what happened to him. Yeah he fought back but did he really get the chance to confront the reasons behind… Read more »