One of the most common Nice Guy™ complaints is that women like jerks preferentially to liking guys who are nice like them. I think this notion is common enough that it deserves a little examination.
First, while some women do indeed dig jerks, so do some men, although in that case it’s usually called the “why men love bitches” problem. Admittedly, men tend to believe women like jerks for Mysterious Ladybrain Reasons, and women believe men tend to like shallow bitches because they have great tits, but that’s only minor cosmetic differences in the general trend. It’s not even reserved to the straights: a whole lot of queers have managed to fall hopelessly in love with homophobes. The digging of jerks isn’t a gender problem; it’s a people problem.
There is some scientific research on whether men or women like jerks. Unfortunately, most of this research ranges between mostly useless and completely useless. “Mostly useless” are the studies that ask people whether they’re attracted to jerks: that’ll get you what people think they’re attracted to, but that’s not always whom they’re really attracted to, as everyone can attest who’s ever seen someone swear up and down that they want a nice, reliable boyfriend with a good job and then proceed to chase after every brooding boy with a Daddy-doesn’t-love-me haircut and a guitar in a ten-mile radius. “Completely useless” are the studies that show that jerks (the disagreeable, those who have Dark Triad traits) have more sex partners, because that is almost certainly because people keep dumping them for being assholes.
Therefore, we are left with the anecdotal evidence for people dig jerks. There are a couple different explanations; more than one of these is probably in play in any given situation.
(Please note that none of these explanations are “women naturally dig jerks because EVOLUTION!” That is a terrible explanation. First, human children need a shitload of caretaking. It makes literally no sense for evolution to select for women to be attracted to men who are more likely to run out on them and leave them stuck with the kid, because the kid would be less likely to survive to adulthood; instead, it’d favor nice, reliable men who would help with the childrearing. Second, a disagreeable adult is likely to produce disagreeable children, which is a major net negative, because humans are social creatures and getting along with other people majorly increases your chance of survival. Third, the “sexy sons” hypothesis is begging the question: if women sleep with jerks because jerks are sexy and they want their sons to inherit the jerkishness and be sexy, how did jerkishness become sexy in the first place?)
The jerk has other good traits
I will admit, whenever I hear people complain about someone dating a complete asshole, I tend to assume the asshole looks something like Andrej Pejic.
Depicted: a man who is almost certainly hotter than you.
Extremely hot male models aside, there are a lot of reasons why someone might date an asshole: she’s smart, he’s rich, she’s funny, and (yes) he’s hot as balls. I know the one time I ended up in a relationship with a Grade-A borderline-abusive asshole, he was an extremely cute feminist mathematician who taught me to stand up for myself and talked to me for entire days at a time, which made me overlook the whole “explosive rages, calls my friends Judas” thing.
As an aside: can we collectively promise ourselves that, if we ever find ourselves describing a relationship as “really good, except”, we will break up with that person immediately? The thing that follows the “except” is always completely fucking horrible. “It’s really good, except zie screams at me when I do things wrong.” “It’s really good, except sometimes he withdraws all my money from the bank and spends it on gambling, cocaine, and sex workers.” “It’s really good, except she thinks dressing up as Harry Potter to go to a con is silly and childish.”
They are both jerks
I think this is behind that whole Hot Chicks with Douchebags thing. It is actually, in fact, Douchebags with Douchebags. The douchebags are mating with their own kind! It should not be inherently more surprising that an asshole dates an asshole than it is that everyone I’m dating can recite all of Space Core’s dialogue from Portal 2 and hold in-depth discussions of the relative merits of turning the moon into a giant death ray.
Also, you may have not noticed that the person you want to date is an asshole because crushes can make people way non-objective like that.
The non-jerk has a thing for jerks
There are a lot of reasons why someone might have a thing for jerks! Some people absolutely love fixing broken birds—they’re the sort of people who will adopt a three-legged dog with diabetes just because it neeeeeeeeds them. Other people have some kind of bizarre possibly-Twilight-based idea that jerks are sexy. Still others have low self-esteem and think that jerks are all they deserve.
At any rate, if someone has a thing for jerks, it is probably a sign that you should not date them, because they have some serious growing-up to do.
The jerk is nice to them
This is what’s behind that stereotypical jock who throws nerds into lockers but still gets to date the hot chick. It’s not that she’s turned on by his locker-throwing-into ability; it’s because he doesn’t throw her into lockers. He remembers her favorite flavor of ice cream and always smiles at her when he gets a touchdown. Admittedly, this is somewhat shortsighted on her part (if someone is nice to you but not to the waiter they are not a nice person), but still fairly reasonable.
In fact, some people actually feel special when someone who’s normally a dick is nice to them: it feels like you’ve earned something.
It’s an emotionally abusive relationship
I hate to mention this one, because if your friend’s in an emotionally abusive relationship and your big reaction is “why is s/he dating that jerk instead of me?” you are earth-shaking levels of asshole. But nevertheless it is a possibility.
The jerk is not actually a jerk
Many Nice Guys™ have a skewed idea of what counts as “being nice”: as we shall see in a future post, a lot of times they interpret pedestalizing or supplicating behavior as being nice, and when a guy refuses to pedestalize or supplicate to women, they consider him an asshole. This is not being an asshole to women, though; it’s just treating them like a normal person.
In particular, there’s a certain kind of flirting I usually call the “performative asshole,” which can be done by men or women. (My girlfriend calls it Dom Flirting, and it’s true that performative assholery is pretty common as a means of signaling dominance in non-kinky spaces.) The performative asshole is a particular kind of flirtatious banter that involves friendly teasing, sometimes saying things that are often genuinely insulting (“I don’t know why I let you hang around. Must be because you’re cute”) with a smirk and a sense of irony. The key is that everyone involved knows that the performative asshole is not doing it seriously. You know it’s performative assholery because the other person will smile or laugh, instead of getting horribly offended. Performative assholes can be attractive for a couple reasons: they’re confident, they’re funny, they don’t take themselves too seriously, and they treat you as an equal and a friend.
Finally, some people will tend to think a person is a jerk because the “jerk” is dating someone that the person wanted to date, regardless of whether the “jerk” actually researches cancer cures in between volunteering at a library and saving orphaned puppies.
However men are partly to blame for people’s attraction to jerks because they still admire fictional characters like James Bond. Also I still strongly believe that its bitches and jerks who are attracted to each other.
Nice people tend to end up together unless the bitch or jerk is so selfish that they want to be bad but still end up marrying the nice person which is pure selfish.
Well I’m not attracted to jerks lets just say I was exposed to the real nice guy much earlier on in my lifetime however now that he passed away and looking back he had a few traits that can be associated with the jerk, but being a jerk or being nice is just a decision to make. He choose to draw upon the more constructive traits in himself which makes all the difference in spotting the good guy from the dark.
Well, at least some women like jerks like my brother. He saw A LOT of action when he was heavily drinking, abusive towards women, getting into bar fights etc.
or maybe some guys are just jerks for real and some women are just bitches for real…respect is a two way street. People that idealize or idolize rude idiots are just sychophants and losers.
“Many Nice Guys™ have a skewed idea of what counts as “being nice”: as we shall see in a future post, a lot of times they interpret pedestalizing or supplicating behavior as being nice, and when a guy refuses to pedestalize or supplicate to women, they consider him an asshole.” Here’s the thing… Even assholes pedestalize women. I know of very few, if any assholes who don’t give women preferential treatment. These assholes may treat women like dirt, but trust me… They treat men even worse. While they’ll occasionally slap their girlfriend around… None of those slappings come close to… Read more »
YmcY:
Thanks.
There are many levels to emotional abuse, and just I took the application of a Carte Blanc “earth-shaking levels of asshole” to be a bit hyperbole.
(I’m associating this to a friend of mine who got cheated on by her BF, and tried to fix things up with him instead of breaking up. I have a hard time picturing myself as the earth-shaking asshole in that story for not trying to force her out of that relation, physically if needed, regardless of my attraction to her. But I lose nuances in the english language sometimes.)
@Flyingkal: My take on this is
Immediate, maybe not so much. Permanent? Abso-fucking-lutely. Really bad emotional manipulation and abuse can leave people just as messed up as any physical violence that falls short of being fatal (I know this only from my own anecdotal evidence + other people’s, I’m sure someone else could point to psychological literature.)
And, regarding the term “jerk”, and it’s connection to *ahem* male masturbation: 🙂
Translated to my language, the origin of “jerk” comes from a brick-layer’s apprentice.
Before the advent of electric machines, the jerk was in charge of the trough of cement. And to mix it and then to prevent it from solidifying, he was supposed to keep it moving by rocking it in a circular or back-and-forth motion… 😉
Excuse me for a late comeback and my grave thick-headedness, but I need to have this exchange explained to me: OP: It’s an emotionally abusive relationship I hate to mention this one, because if your friend’s in an emotionally abusive relationship and your big reaction is “why is s/he dating that jerk instead of me?” you are earth-shaking levels of asshole. But nevertheless it is a possibility. Superglucose wrote I dunno that seems like a relatively fair question. And Jo replied The earth-shaking level of assholeness lies in your big reaction being “why is s/he dating that jerk instead of… Read more »
I once tried to tell the object of my Nice Guyism (post-confession) that part of the reason it was messing me up so bad was because it made me feel like our entire friendship was (just) an ulterior motive. She said that was awful, but didn’t explain why it was awful. Yeah, just noting that for the record. @monkey: I don’t like it either. But, well at least RocketFrog has a great big Virtue Ethics side-step of the issue that looks promising…. @Ozy: Sorry to the extent that I keep fucking up your pronoun. When it comes to pronouns I’m… Read more »
Monkey: I also do not like the term. But it seems to have a lot of adherents. My advice is to stop investing a lot in defining yourself as a nice guy. I did. I now try to regard myself as a good person instead. The difference is that “good” has to do with intentions, and “nice” has to do with behaviour. It is possible to be nice without being good (eg. trying to be pleasant around others, for manipulative and selfish reasons), and it is also possible to be good without being nice (eg. blunt honesty). I think the… Read more »
@suturexself: I get what you are saying. If you’re convinced all men are bastards (or all women are bastardettes, or both), then you will prefer men who show their “true colours” to men who want you to think they aren’t bastards (most likely, you would think, they are just being passive-aggressive instead of outwardly aggressive). Which leads me to further speculation: Hmm, could this lead to a cycle of confirmation bias? “I think men are jerks at heart; that’s why I don’t trust niceness performing guys; that’s why I date honestly jerkish jerks; who reinforce my belief that men are… Read more »
YmcY: OK, but if you’re removing any gender asymmetry from this label(s) or others, the unique issues “Stage 0/1 Nice Guys” face because of male-specific gender shaming may disappear from the new discussion. This “too general” objection is the same one I made to “gender monster”, above. I can agree with that and that’s part of why I said that “Embittered Jerk” would not be applicable to all the stages that Ozy mentioned. The shaming that can lead to the social awkwardness of a Stage One Nice Guy is certainly a factor to bear in mind and if said guy… Read more »
@YmcY:
I still don’t like it.
On Uncalledfor’s Banning: Noah and I actually had several conversations before about banning Uncalledfor, we just kept forgetting to actually do it. Also, my tone during the banning should be interpreted as less “nice” and more “deep, deep sarcasm.” On My Lack of Commenting: I have read every comment and have incorporated my responses to several of the arguments into my future posts, where they’ll be seen by everyone and not just we few losers who have time to read three 200+ comment threads. 🙂 On Fandom: I think the only thing that can be safely assumed is that someone… Read more »
@Ozy:
Just gong to say that your rationale for banning Uncalledfor…
Noah and I actually had several conversations before about banning Uncalledfor, we just kept forgetting to actually do it.
Is eerily similar to that of Christopher Hitchens’ A Long Short War mainly: He was a bastard, you all knew he was a bastard, the consensus was formed long ago, ergo if our current pretext doesn’t work, any other will do.
Since I’m stuck subscribing to this thread, it’d be awful if I didn’t let revisionist history go unchallenged. Have fun continuing to call romantic passivity the kernel of misogyny.
@Danny: “What I’m trying to do it cut straight to the point that there are people (which is why I say “jerk”, its truly gender neutral in the sense that there is no gendering in the label)” OK, but if you’re removing any gender asymmetry from this label(s) or others, the unique issues “Stage 0/1 Nice Guys” face because of male-specific gender shaming may disappear from the new discussion. This “too general” objection is the same one I made to “gender monster”, above. Not saying that Nice Guy/Girl Stage 4 getting a gender neutral label isn’t the right idea, just… Read more »
YmcY: @noah, Danny: Embittered Jerk is intended just for Ozy’s Nice Guys Stage 4? We want a separate, less pejorative label for other sub-categories of the current stereotype, I presume? What I’m trying to do it cut straight to the point that there are people (which is why I say “jerk”, its truly gender neutral in the sense that there is no gendering in the label) out there that have gotten to the point where they are actually displaying behavior that would be considered jerkish such as blaming entire groups for their lack of success in dating/sex/relationships, generalizing entire groups… Read more »
Maybe people like jerks because, I dunno… everybody is a jerk, sooner or later?
These discussions are always centered around peoples exes – and you have to consider the halo/horns effect.
This… just this. You know what ‘fixed’ the stress of not being romantically attached? Romantic attachment.
Yeah, that.
Also, I always look at the frantic “women don’t actually like jerks” reaction with suspicion. I’ve been in fandoms, I know what kind of characters women prefer, and the “bad boy” types are almost always the most popular..
I love this thread, reading everyone’s comments has been so interesting. The thing I’m having a hard time with is the “jerk” I’ve dated (I would only qualify one as a real jerk) looked and thought he was a nice guy. He had a good job, was very nice to waitstaff and other people, good with kids, liked animals etc. It wasn’t until we had been dating a few short weeks that I realized he was extremely prejudiced against African Americans, LGTB community, judgemental of women and non traditional gender roles and became extremely possessive and jealous. Needless to say,… Read more »
@RocketFrog: Thanks for reading! And for sharing your own experiences. There seems to be a lot of overlap although obviously many differences as well. Major Depression sucks goat crap.
@noah, Danny: Embittered Jerk is intended just for Ozy’s Nice Guys Stage 4? We want a separate, less pejorative label for other sub-categories of the current stereotype, I presume?
Personally i’m liking “Embittered Jerk”. With the way Nice Guy is tossed around it almost feels like people are trying to say that folks who fit under that category just started off at that point when that’s not always the case. Its not like these people just woke up one morning and decided to blame entire groups of people in a misguided effort to account for their own success in dating/romance/sex.
“Embittered” is a good word. It touches on a key component of the problem.
I think the problem with trying to introduce the term Fake Nice Guy is that some people who are already aware of the Nice Guy term are going to associate it with someone faking being a Nice Guy according to their definition. It’s not going to mean someone who’s faking being nice. the Fake part will be associated with the already existing term Nice Guy.
I think the term to replace it with needs to be something entirely new, and also a word that has an inherent negative meaning. Nice Guy is a word with inherently positive meaning.
monkey: “Can we PLEASE come up with a new term for Nice GuyTM? There’s no guarantee that it’ll stick, but at least we would have tried.” I’m going with Fake Nice Guy myself, or even just fake nice guy, as of a couple of days ago. Works very well for me both in practice and emotionally. I don’t think we’ll get better precision with just a few words. It very clearly excludes those who really ARE nice (who may or may not have other problems, and may or may not need a label of their own), which I think is… Read more »
Can we PLEASE come up with a new term for Nice GuyTM? There’s no guarantee that it’ll stick, but at least we would have tried.
I try, although I don’t always succeed, to be a Nice Person. I hate that this is being taken away from me by an ugly, mocking term.