For those of you who simply can’t get enough of my rambling about gender issues, or who just want to hear about my most enormous personal failure, I’ve got a post up at the Good Men Project, all about success and beauty and porn and whatnot. Enjoy.
@Joanna TGMP used to be decent — even pretty good at times — but over the past six months or so it has become a dumping ground for terrible writing and half-baked, adolescent garbage. I can’t remember the last time I read something even remotely well-reasoned at that site. It’s well-documented that Tom Matlack is a simple-minded child, narcissist, my-black(/gay)-friender, & crappy writer who can’t write a single post without contradicting himself several times. But the rest of the writing, which used to be relatively smart, gets worse every day (Noah’s piece being a rare exception :-). As an editor… Read more »
I saw this at AVfM – and I have to say it sums up my only problem with “The Good Men Project:” What traits would a good man have that a good woman would not? It’s snarky and antagonistic – but it rings true to me. Obviously, our society treats men and women differently – what I’d like to see the GMP do is be a resource for men living within our gender system how to be “good people.” As a humanist and gender egalitarian – I desire greatly to improve the status of the national conversation about masculinity and… Read more »
Monkey, I love alla those men, I am a product of my times. (sigh) When I did customer service, talked to Telly Savalas’ daughter. I told her I loved her father, she said “All women loved him”, laughing. Not a conventionally “handsome” man at all, but very magnetic.
I liked the article, and Noah, if that magazine was Filament, then I was one of those who paid the obscene international shipping rates to get my issues and I was sad that publication ceased! Small world? 🙂
@kaija24: I don’t want to get into specifics, but I can’t take credit, even implicitly, for someone else’s work. Filament was the baby of the brilliant Suraya Singh, out of London. We did do a shoot for them, though, but I don’t want to get into Twenty Questions about what I did work on. No offense intended. 🙂
Noah: I honestly don’t know where the idea that men have “types” came from, but I think it’s a big lie. If you’re attracted to a big woman, then big women have to be your type. If you like a skinny blonde, skinny blondes are your type. It’s flattening desire. I agree that there are some women that are sort of considered “hot” by default, and it seems like their appeal is the most ephemeral. Megan Fox is already on the way out, for example, and she in turn replaced Angelina Jolie. However, I think that the “generic girls” of… Read more »
@Daisy: I’m curious if the feminists you consider “radfem”–would consider themselves “radfem”? Like, does this include Shakesville? Not sure who is in the hub. I was referring to radfemhub, it’s a specific website. They’re a radical feminist site that trends on the hateful side, including the occasional post in which gender selective genocide is endorsed. I may disagree with some things said by Shakesville, but Shakesville isn’t radfemhub, much as NSWATM isn’t AVfM. Something I’m sure everyone is glad for. Was it intended to? Oh, sorry! I am a uneducated redneck and such bourgeois subtleties often have to be SPELLED… Read more »
@Monkey: You raise some interesting points; this is a subject I’ve thought about a good deal, as my GMP post probably shows. I agree that your Brando/Bloom dichotomy seems kinda like cherry-picking. One could just as easily say “James Dean used to be a sex symbol, but now Russell Crowe is popular… shows how tastes have changed toward big burly fellas and away from skinny pretty boys.” I think you’re absolutely right, though, that there is and has always been more variance in the types of men considered handsome and sexy than in the types of women considered so. You… Read more »
” The change of male sexiness from Marlon Brando in the 50s to Orlando Bloom What? We all abandoned Brando for—? BLOOM? You ARE kidding, right? When did this happen? Was this some proclamation I missed? I think male sexiness is as varied a concept as female sexiness is. Declaring Brando or Rudolph Valentino or whoever, all washed up because they are from another era, does not necessarily reflect the desires of all women.” That was kind of my point. In fact, it can be varied within the tastes of a single person! The real “Beauty Myth” is that men… Read more »
Guest
Ed Sparrow
12 years ago
Yeah, Danny basically just said everything I wanted to, but lacked the patience to do so.
Also, to stay on topic — nice article Noah, I left a comment over at TGMP.
Guest
Jared
12 years ago
@Daisy
“I’m curious if the feminists you consider “radfem”–would consider themselves “radfem”? Like, does this include Shakesville?
Not sure who is in the hub.”
Radfemhub is an online radical feminist forum, not a vague social clasification as you seem to think Schadrach is using th term (I apologise if I myself am misreading you). It was sensationalised a little while ago when an MRA “infiltrated” their private section and exposed a lot disgusting stuff (fantacising about murdering little boys, androcide etc)
Guest
Gaius
12 years ago
@RocketFrog:
I agree with Danny: if you’ve caught a warning, then I propose we let it be. ^.^
Let me go back and say Noah its good see you accepted the invite. I was given a similar invite and if all goes well I’ll be submitting something to them tonight. In fact it’s a bit related to some of what’s come up in the comments here about Good Men Project. And if anyone is interested I’ve also got a post up at my place right now pondering which of my old works I can tweek and submit to them as well (www.dannyscorneroftheuniverse.blogspot.com). Now about what’s come up here in the comments about Good Men Project. Sharsuit: 1. I… Read more »
Guest
L
12 years ago
-how*
Guest
L
12 years ago
If he wants to loudly discuss how disgusted he is by men, I would position that there are better places to do it than on a masculist blog. Or even just keep it from creeping into every single blog post on said blog and making it pointless to read the comments or even comment at all if it just keeps coming back around to how the extent of the man’s self-loathing. I have no problem with him hashing out his thoughts, but for the sake of everyone else… keep it contained, at least! I’m pretty sure this is what Noah… Read more »
Guest
Darque
12 years ago
@Daisy
” Christ, this IS getting to be like a feminist blog.
”
I found this line humorous. If the two foremost contributors on this site are feminists, many feminists comment here, and the tone of this site is by and large feminist by nature –
and this is a blog.
Doesn’t that make this a feminist blog by definition?
Guest
Darque
12 years ago
@Daisy
If he wants to loudly discuss how disgusted he is by men, I would position that there are better places to do it than on a masculist blog. However, like you have said, I am no mod and he is free to do whatever he wants.
Guest
RocketFrog
12 years ago
Gaius:
I have been given a mod warning (see the open thread, geek edition) that my feelings about men are unwelcome and consistently derailing. I do not think I can discuss this subject without involving those. It is probably best if I stop discussing these things.
Guest
Gaius
12 years ago
@RocketFrog: I’m aware you stated that you would not respond to this subject anymore, out of respect to the others here. Consequently, you need not respond to the following if you don’t wish to… but I will frame the discussion in such a way that if you DO wish to respond, it will not be a rehash of previous posts (and therefore contradictory to your desire to stop talking about the above). I was not personally offended by your comments, nor do I have an emotional axe to grind on this subject. Regarding: men as an oppressor class. I find… Read more »
@sharsuit As an Editor-at-Large for GMP and also a feminist (equity feminist, if you will), I have to say that I’m very proud of what we do over there. First and foremost, it is a site for men, but we have feminists in our editorial staff for a reason: we aim to be balanced. I feel strongly that if you dismiss all MRAs as loose cannon bigots, you miss a lot of really important things that many men are trying to say. Our aim is to hear a wide variety of voices and to allow men to speak for themselves… Read more »
Darque: However, it’s getting tiring in the extreme hearing you argue this same line over and over again – likening men to a hegemonic oppressor class… I am sure many people find some of your opinions tiring too, so? Are you saying whoever has this opinion is not allowed to post here? Is this a rule? (Asking since apparently, rules are being made for my benefit, and I missed it!) So keep your disgust to yourself. Darque, are you a moderator? I don’t see you on the list. Why are you taking it upon yourself to tell people to shut… Read more »
The change of male sexiness from Marlon Brando in the 50s to Orlando Bloom
What? We all abandoned Brando for—? BLOOM? You ARE kidding, right? When did this happen? Was this some proclamation I missed?
I think male sexiness is as varied a concept as female sexiness is. Declaring Brando or Rudolph Valentino or whoever, all washed up because they are from another era, does not necessarily reflect the desires of all women.
@Joanna TGMP used to be decent — even pretty good at times — but over the past six months or so it has become a dumping ground for terrible writing and half-baked, adolescent garbage. I can’t remember the last time I read something even remotely well-reasoned at that site. It’s well-documented that Tom Matlack is a simple-minded child, narcissist, my-black(/gay)-friender, & crappy writer who can’t write a single post without contradicting himself several times. But the rest of the writing, which used to be relatively smart, gets worse every day (Noah’s piece being a rare exception :-). As an editor… Read more »
I saw this at AVfM – and I have to say it sums up my only problem with “The Good Men Project:” What traits would a good man have that a good woman would not? It’s snarky and antagonistic – but it rings true to me. Obviously, our society treats men and women differently – what I’d like to see the GMP do is be a resource for men living within our gender system how to be “good people.” As a humanist and gender egalitarian – I desire greatly to improve the status of the national conversation about masculinity and… Read more »
Monkey, I love alla those men, I am a product of my times. (sigh) When I did customer service, talked to Telly Savalas’ daughter. I told her I loved her father, she said “All women loved him”, laughing. Not a conventionally “handsome” man at all, but very magnetic.
Ugh, Filament.
I didn’t know production ceased, but I definitely don’t miss it.
Darque: Doesn’t that make this a feminist blog by definition?
Second Wavers would say no blog about men is feminist, period.
Third Wavers would say EVERYTHING can be feminist, so this blog is too… and so are you! 🙂
I liked the article, and Noah, if that magazine was Filament, then I was one of those who paid the obscene international shipping rates to get my issues and I was sad that publication ceased! Small world? 🙂
@kaija24: I don’t want to get into specifics, but I can’t take credit, even implicitly, for someone else’s work. Filament was the baby of the brilliant Suraya Singh, out of London. We did do a shoot for them, though, but I don’t want to get into Twenty Questions about what I did work on. No offense intended. 🙂
oookay….
Does anyone else actually want to discus Noah’s article?
Noah: I honestly don’t know where the idea that men have “types” came from, but I think it’s a big lie. If you’re attracted to a big woman, then big women have to be your type. If you like a skinny blonde, skinny blondes are your type. It’s flattening desire. I agree that there are some women that are sort of considered “hot” by default, and it seems like their appeal is the most ephemeral. Megan Fox is already on the way out, for example, and she in turn replaced Angelina Jolie. However, I think that the “generic girls” of… Read more »
@Daisy: I’m curious if the feminists you consider “radfem”–would consider themselves “radfem”? Like, does this include Shakesville? Not sure who is in the hub. I was referring to radfemhub, it’s a specific website. They’re a radical feminist site that trends on the hateful side, including the occasional post in which gender selective genocide is endorsed. I may disagree with some things said by Shakesville, but Shakesville isn’t radfemhub, much as NSWATM isn’t AVfM. Something I’m sure everyone is glad for. Was it intended to? Oh, sorry! I am a uneducated redneck and such bourgeois subtleties often have to be SPELLED… Read more »
@Monkey: You raise some interesting points; this is a subject I’ve thought about a good deal, as my GMP post probably shows. I agree that your Brando/Bloom dichotomy seems kinda like cherry-picking. One could just as easily say “James Dean used to be a sex symbol, but now Russell Crowe is popular… shows how tastes have changed toward big burly fellas and away from skinny pretty boys.” I think you’re absolutely right, though, that there is and has always been more variance in the types of men considered handsome and sexy than in the types of women considered so. You… Read more »
” The change of male sexiness from Marlon Brando in the 50s to Orlando Bloom What? We all abandoned Brando for—? BLOOM? You ARE kidding, right? When did this happen? Was this some proclamation I missed? I think male sexiness is as varied a concept as female sexiness is. Declaring Brando or Rudolph Valentino or whoever, all washed up because they are from another era, does not necessarily reflect the desires of all women.” That was kind of my point. In fact, it can be varied within the tastes of a single person! The real “Beauty Myth” is that men… Read more »
Yeah, Danny basically just said everything I wanted to, but lacked the patience to do so.
Also, to stay on topic — nice article Noah, I left a comment over at TGMP.
@Daisy
“I’m curious if the feminists you consider “radfem”–would consider themselves “radfem”? Like, does this include Shakesville?
Not sure who is in the hub.”
Radfemhub is an online radical feminist forum, not a vague social clasification as you seem to think Schadrach is using th term (I apologise if I myself am misreading you). It was sensationalised a little while ago when an MRA “infiltrated” their private section and exposed a lot disgusting stuff (fantacising about murdering little boys, androcide etc)
@RocketFrog:
I agree with Danny: if you’ve caught a warning, then I propose we let it be. ^.^
Let me go back and say Noah its good see you accepted the invite. I was given a similar invite and if all goes well I’ll be submitting something to them tonight. In fact it’s a bit related to some of what’s come up in the comments here about Good Men Project. And if anyone is interested I’ve also got a post up at my place right now pondering which of my old works I can tweek and submit to them as well (www.dannyscorneroftheuniverse.blogspot.com). Now about what’s come up here in the comments about Good Men Project. Sharsuit: 1. I… Read more »
-how*
If he wants to loudly discuss how disgusted he is by men, I would position that there are better places to do it than on a masculist blog. Or even just keep it from creeping into every single blog post on said blog and making it pointless to read the comments or even comment at all if it just keeps coming back around to how the extent of the man’s self-loathing. I have no problem with him hashing out his thoughts, but for the sake of everyone else… keep it contained, at least! I’m pretty sure this is what Noah… Read more »
@Daisy
”
Christ, this IS getting to be like a feminist blog.
”
I found this line humorous. If the two foremost contributors on this site are feminists, many feminists comment here, and the tone of this site is by and large feminist by nature –
and this is a blog.
Doesn’t that make this a feminist blog by definition?
@Daisy
If he wants to loudly discuss how disgusted he is by men, I would position that there are better places to do it than on a masculist blog. However, like you have said, I am no mod and he is free to do whatever he wants.
Gaius:
I have been given a mod warning (see the open thread, geek edition) that my feelings about men are unwelcome and consistently derailing. I do not think I can discuss this subject without involving those. It is probably best if I stop discussing these things.
@RocketFrog: I’m aware you stated that you would not respond to this subject anymore, out of respect to the others here. Consequently, you need not respond to the following if you don’t wish to… but I will frame the discussion in such a way that if you DO wish to respond, it will not be a rehash of previous posts (and therefore contradictory to your desire to stop talking about the above). I was not personally offended by your comments, nor do I have an emotional axe to grind on this subject. Regarding: men as an oppressor class. I find… Read more »
@sharsuit As an Editor-at-Large for GMP and also a feminist (equity feminist, if you will), I have to say that I’m very proud of what we do over there. First and foremost, it is a site for men, but we have feminists in our editorial staff for a reason: we aim to be balanced. I feel strongly that if you dismiss all MRAs as loose cannon bigots, you miss a lot of really important things that many men are trying to say. Our aim is to hear a wide variety of voices and to allow men to speak for themselves… Read more »
Darque: However, it’s getting tiring in the extreme hearing you argue this same line over and over again – likening men to a hegemonic oppressor class… I am sure many people find some of your opinions tiring too, so? Are you saying whoever has this opinion is not allowed to post here? Is this a rule? (Asking since apparently, rules are being made for my benefit, and I missed it!) So keep your disgust to yourself. Darque, are you a moderator? I don’t see you on the list. Why are you taking it upon yourself to tell people to shut… Read more »
though I half-expected a certain comment policy update to push Daisy away
Was it intended to? Oh, sorry! I am a uneducated redneck and such bourgeois subtleties often have to be SPELLED OUT before I get it.
The change of male sexiness from Marlon Brando in the 50s to Orlando Bloom
What? We all abandoned Brando for—? BLOOM? You ARE kidding, right? When did this happen? Was this some proclamation I missed?
I think male sexiness is as varied a concept as female sexiness is. Declaring Brando or Rudolph Valentino or whoever, all washed up because they are from another era, does not necessarily reflect the desires of all women.
Bloom? Yeccchhh.