This Open Thread has been brought to you by the 99%.
About ozyfrantz
Ozy Frantz is a student at a well-respected Hippie College in the United States. Zie bases most of zir life decisions on Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman, and identifies more closely with Pinkie Pie than is probably necessary. Ozy can be contacted at [email protected] or on Twitter as @ozyfrantz. Writing is presently Ozy's primary means of support, so to tip the blogger, click here.
Oh, just a note, on the old shame message board thing, I will say that I expected the pregnant lady to react by springing into an exciting sword-battle RP post, but instead she took offence.
Okay, I’ll bite, ill-advised angry reply number sweet coconuts I’ve lost count: 1) It’s only natural. Is it? 2) Triggered by the mention… Fair enough. 3) Poor widdle nerds, it’s just so BLAH BLAH Female Privilege BLAH BLAH We want bad boys BLAH BLAH Stereotypical BS. Stop this. And Please, define “Value”. Success objectification? Trolling. “we will reject your bitter ass how and when we see fit because we are your overqueens?” That’s the kind of shit that makes me want… Well, Let’s take a trip back in time again. Back on an old message board, I was engaged in… Read more »
Guest
balconyscene
12 years ago
It has been put to me that perhaps my method of argumentation may have been triggering to some of you, and so I admit that it was thoughtless of me and I apologize.
Balconyscene, you seem to be trolling, and rather ineptly at that. This is a violation of NSWATM’s comment policy to always argue in good faith. You are literally this close to being banhammered.
Guest
Vejuz
12 years ago
@AB
After reading on, I agree. Highly effective as well, as I find myself filled a nigh uncontrollable desire to fight back against the screed s/he is pushing. I will, however, try to restrain myself.
Guest
AB
12 years ago
@Vejuz:
No. I don’t. Because those are done in private. But often, it’s done without the implication that all men are like that, but making fun or noting of the few that are. But Twitter is a a public space, and I’ve been following it for a while now. The number of times I’ve seen gross generalizations on it is galling. I wouldn’t tolerate broad-based generalization about women, and I will not tolerate them against men either.
monkey: The only explanation I can think of is that these women consider biology as destiny, but only when it suits their own prejudices.
That’s it exactly. Anti-trans feminists go through all sorts of mental contortions regarding biology (especially chromosomes), socialization, personal history, gendered (i.e. male) “energy”, and so on. But there’s only one part of their argument that’s ever really consistent — “transwomen aren’t women because we say they aren’t”.
Fortunately, they’re nowhere near as prevalent as they used to be, a few diehards such as Sheila Jeffreys and Julie Bindel excepted.
Guest
balconyscene
12 years ago
“Women are NOT entitled to be jaundiced against men. Men are NOT entitled to be jaundiced against women. Turnabout is NOT fair play.” But it’s only natural. “Furthermore, I would advise you to take your ideas to Twisty Faster, because that’s where such Toxic Wrongheadedness belongs. Not in Masculism.” Careful, some people get ‘triggered’ by the mere mention of her. :p “And I’ll freely admit, you can’t predict how people will react to you. I learned this, not for the first time, as I seem to remember another incident in the mists of time. But it is entirely wrongheaded to… Read more »
Schala: I have a really hard time trying to explain even to myself how come trans men get more lesbian access post-transition than trans women, for example.
It’s not too difficult really — it’s simply because a lot of trans men were part of the lesbian community before their transitions, often identifying as butches, so they have a lot of lesbian friends already.
They also couched it into “raised as a girl” thing. Whereas socialization is what defines you forever. And all people socialized and raised as girls are irreconcilably different from people socialized as boys, somehow (as if everyone was raised the same).
And all girls are socialised in the same way, and all boys are socialised in the same way, and every “real” woman’s experience is the same unless their ideology requires individuality at any given moment, and all socialisation stops after childhood…
Guest
Schala
12 years ago
@monkey
In this case it’s penis (even hypothetical) centered.
Trans men generally don’t have penis because surgery for it is very costly, and it’s not that good for results. Trans women who don’t have penis are still suspected of having one, and trans men who do have one are rendered invisible.
They also couched it into “raised as a girl” thing. Whereas socialization is what defines you forever. And all people socialized and raised as girls are irreconcilably different from people socialized as boys, somehow (as if everyone was raised the same).
@Monkey, Vejuz: And here I thought that someone would be saying a resounding FU to me! Nice to see that I’m not alone in seeing through misandric crap. : ) @Jay Generally: I’m not suggesting that Homosexuality is entirely decided via parental influence, and like I said, I’m only playing devil’s advocate here. A family member suggested to me this theory, that a straight child in a gay household would be confused when coming to terms with zir own sexuality. Then again, common sense dictates that sexuality of the child is only the business of the parents when Junior is… Read more »
Guest
Schala
12 years ago
The only explanation I can think of is that these women consider biology as destiny, but only when it suits their own prejudices.
If we follow my status theory, we should find even more men doing the same to trans men…but they don’t really care on average.
My hypothesis is that these women think being female is better (but they’ll never say so – only prevent trans and intersex women from identifying as female), or have a martyr complex (being the most oppressed of the world is the best thing to have, or something).
@Schala:
As a non-trans person, I had no idea this prejudice existed until I heard about how the Michigan Womyn’s Festival handles trans women. I was absolutely appalled.
The only explanation I can think of is that these women consider biology as destiny, but only when it suits their own prejudices.
Guest
Vejuz
12 years ago
I bet you also whine when women make casual only-semi-serious jokes at the expense of men when they have their get togethers, don’t you. No. I don’t. Because those are done in private. But often, it’s done without the implication that all men are like that, but making fun or noting of the few that are. But Twitter is a a public space, and I’ve been following it for a while now. The number of times I’ve seen gross generalizations on it is galling. I wouldn’t tolerate broad-based generalization about women, and I will not tolerate them against men either.… Read more »
Guest
Schala
12 years ago
I find it generally weird all I hear about people on the trans masculine spectrum being accepted by women’s space, lesbian space, queer space etc, while trans women are relegated to gay men’s space, and treated like crap in more general LGBT stuff. At least this seems to be Queen Emily and many others in the LGBT community’s experience (I only have experience in the T community, and only very little). I have a really hard time trying to explain even to myself how come trans men get more lesbian access post-transition than trans women, for example. Even if it… Read more »
“Point is, women ARE entitled to look at ALL men with a jaundiced eye and men ARE entitled to say ‘thank you ma’am may I have another.'”
I see. So the emotional abuse I received was something that I had to put up with to atone for centuries of Bad Men? When my mother threatened to essentially abandon me, I should just have just thought “oh well, women have had it worse?”
This century is the only century in the existence of the planet Earth where women have come anywhere CLOSE to not being treated as subhuman objects that exist solely for the pleasure of *men*. Who do you think you are to not shut up and fucking like it when women feel a little unfriendly about the male gender? Are you actually fucking serious? Are you really and truly putting this out there as your considered opinion? Because if you are, just, wow. Nobody is responsible for what other people do, even if they are the same colour, gender, religion, shoe… Read more »
Balconyscene: Okay, so if you’ll indulge me a moment, I’d like to take a sidestep back into the mists of time. Waaaaay back in 2003 (8 years ago now, how time flies), I used to frequent a message board whose remit was serious and thoughtful discussion. Occasionally, I would start my rebuttals with the phrase “I would like to say a Resounding FUCK YOU!”. Of course, that was no way to respond to people and be heard, but there you go, I was 23 and knew little of netiquette. However, I feel that the spirit of the phrase is that… Read more »
Guest
balconyscene
12 years ago
Point is, women ARE entitled to look at ALL men with a jaundiced eye and men ARE entitled to say ‘thank you ma’am may I have another.’
Can someone help?
“This Open Thread has been brought to you by the 99%.”
I’m sorry if this is OT, or has been covered already, but it only looks like 80% to me…
“I know sports is meaningless, but it’s an escape from my day-to-day life.”
GO NINERS! 8-1!
Oh, just a note, on the old shame message board thing, I will say that I expected the pregnant lady to react by springing into an exciting sword-battle RP post, but instead she took offence.
That’s what I meant.
Okay, I’ll bite, ill-advised angry reply number sweet coconuts I’ve lost count: 1) It’s only natural. Is it? 2) Triggered by the mention… Fair enough. 3) Poor widdle nerds, it’s just so BLAH BLAH Female Privilege BLAH BLAH We want bad boys BLAH BLAH Stereotypical BS. Stop this. And Please, define “Value”. Success objectification? Trolling. “we will reject your bitter ass how and when we see fit because we are your overqueens?” That’s the kind of shit that makes me want… Well, Let’s take a trip back in time again. Back on an old message board, I was engaged in… Read more »
It has been put to me that perhaps my method of argumentation may have been triggering to some of you, and so I admit that it was thoughtless of me and I apologize.
Balconyscene, you seem to be trolling, and rather ineptly at that. This is a violation of NSWATM’s comment policy to always argue in good faith. You are literally this close to being banhammered.
@AB
After reading on, I agree. Highly effective as well, as I find myself filled a nigh uncontrollable desire to fight back against the screed s/he is pushing. I will, however, try to restrain myself.
@Vejuz:
I think balconyscene is just trolling.
monkey: The only explanation I can think of is that these women consider biology as destiny, but only when it suits their own prejudices.
That’s it exactly. Anti-trans feminists go through all sorts of mental contortions regarding biology (especially chromosomes), socialization, personal history, gendered (i.e. male) “energy”, and so on. But there’s only one part of their argument that’s ever really consistent — “transwomen aren’t women because we say they aren’t”.
Fortunately, they’re nowhere near as prevalent as they used to be, a few diehards such as Sheila Jeffreys and Julie Bindel excepted.
“Women are NOT entitled to be jaundiced against men. Men are NOT entitled to be jaundiced against women. Turnabout is NOT fair play.” But it’s only natural. “Furthermore, I would advise you to take your ideas to Twisty Faster, because that’s where such Toxic Wrongheadedness belongs. Not in Masculism.” Careful, some people get ‘triggered’ by the mere mention of her. :p “And I’ll freely admit, you can’t predict how people will react to you. I learned this, not for the first time, as I seem to remember another incident in the mists of time. But it is entirely wrongheaded to… Read more »
Schala: I have a really hard time trying to explain even to myself how come trans men get more lesbian access post-transition than trans women, for example.
It’s not too difficult really — it’s simply because a lot of trans men were part of the lesbian community before their transitions, often identifying as butches, so they have a lot of lesbian friends already.
And all girls are socialised in the same way, and all boys are socialised in the same way, and every “real” woman’s experience is the same unless their ideology requires individuality at any given moment, and all socialisation stops after childhood…
@monkey
In this case it’s penis (even hypothetical) centered.
Trans men generally don’t have penis because surgery for it is very costly, and it’s not that good for results. Trans women who don’t have penis are still suspected of having one, and trans men who do have one are rendered invisible.
They also couched it into “raised as a girl” thing. Whereas socialization is what defines you forever. And all people socialized and raised as girls are irreconcilably different from people socialized as boys, somehow (as if everyone was raised the same).
@Schala: Why not both? They often seem to couch it in terms of “safety,” which begs the question why FTMs are allowed.
They might be confused if they have no outside contact ever, or only have contact with gay and lesbian couples. Those two scenarios are very unlikely.
@Monkey, Vejuz: And here I thought that someone would be saying a resounding FU to me! Nice to see that I’m not alone in seeing through misandric crap. : ) @Jay Generally: I’m not suggesting that Homosexuality is entirely decided via parental influence, and like I said, I’m only playing devil’s advocate here. A family member suggested to me this theory, that a straight child in a gay household would be confused when coming to terms with zir own sexuality. Then again, common sense dictates that sexuality of the child is only the business of the parents when Junior is… Read more »
If we follow my status theory, we should find even more men doing the same to trans men…but they don’t really care on average.
My hypothesis is that these women think being female is better (but they’ll never say so – only prevent trans and intersex women from identifying as female), or have a martyr complex (being the most oppressed of the world is the best thing to have, or something).
@Schala:
As a non-trans person, I had no idea this prejudice existed until I heard about how the Michigan Womyn’s Festival handles trans women. I was absolutely appalled.
The only explanation I can think of is that these women consider biology as destiny, but only when it suits their own prejudices.
I bet you also whine when women make casual only-semi-serious jokes at the expense of men when they have their get togethers, don’t you. No. I don’t. Because those are done in private. But often, it’s done without the implication that all men are like that, but making fun or noting of the few that are. But Twitter is a a public space, and I’ve been following it for a while now. The number of times I’ve seen gross generalizations on it is galling. I wouldn’t tolerate broad-based generalization about women, and I will not tolerate them against men either.… Read more »
I find it generally weird all I hear about people on the trans masculine spectrum being accepted by women’s space, lesbian space, queer space etc, while trans women are relegated to gay men’s space, and treated like crap in more general LGBT stuff. At least this seems to be Queen Emily and many others in the LGBT community’s experience (I only have experience in the T community, and only very little). I have a really hard time trying to explain even to myself how come trans men get more lesbian access post-transition than trans women, for example. Even if it… Read more »
“Point is, women ARE entitled to look at ALL men with a jaundiced eye and men ARE entitled to say ‘thank you ma’am may I have another.'”
I see. So the emotional abuse I received was something that I had to put up with to atone for centuries of Bad Men? When my mother threatened to essentially abandon me, I should just have just thought “oh well, women have had it worse?”
Um, No.
This century is the only century in the existence of the planet Earth where women have come anywhere CLOSE to not being treated as subhuman objects that exist solely for the pleasure of *men*. Who do you think you are to not shut up and fucking like it when women feel a little unfriendly about the male gender? Are you actually fucking serious? Are you really and truly putting this out there as your considered opinion? Because if you are, just, wow. Nobody is responsible for what other people do, even if they are the same colour, gender, religion, shoe… Read more »
Balconyscene: Okay, so if you’ll indulge me a moment, I’d like to take a sidestep back into the mists of time. Waaaaay back in 2003 (8 years ago now, how time flies), I used to frequent a message board whose remit was serious and thoughtful discussion. Occasionally, I would start my rebuttals with the phrase “I would like to say a Resounding FUCK YOU!”. Of course, that was no way to respond to people and be heard, but there you go, I was 23 and knew little of netiquette. However, I feel that the spirit of the phrase is that… Read more »
Point is, women ARE entitled to look at ALL men with a jaundiced eye and men ARE entitled to say ‘thank you ma’am may I have another.’