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Ozy Frantz is a student at a well-respected Hippie College in the United States. Zie bases most of zir life decisions on Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman, and identifies more closely with Pinkie Pie than is probably necessary. Ozy can be contacted at [email protected] or on Twitter as @ozyfrantz. Writing is presently Ozy's primary means of support, so to tip the blogger, click here.
@Colette Wedding
Care to shine a light on exactly where I’m going wrong in reading your comments?
Yep, you’re missing something.
@Colette Wedding
Maybe I’m missing something here, but you seem to be insinuating that refraining from actively perpetrating the false notion that men are only rapists (and never rape victims), and women are only rape victims (and never rapists) is the same as refocusing a discussion from women and onto men. I don’t see how the former causes or is indicative of the imminency of the latter.
Schala, “Well, if they go get raped, they’re told they …” But the article wasn’t addressing male victims of female perpetrated rape and thus not the specific issues they face. You make it clear those victims face their own negativity, correct? Well so do female victims of male-perpetrated rape. Next time I see a discussion of issues faced specifically or almost exclusively by male victims of female perpetrated rape, I’ll be sure to jump in and make sure they include female victims of male-perpetrated rape within those terms. Then I’ll scurry off to another website to reframe the issue as… Read more »
@Collette, I agree with you that some advice towards women about how to prevent male-on-female rape is problematic, and place an oppressive burden on women. It is countering a gendered-trope that already exists and thus addressing it in gender-neutral terms wouldn’t make sense unless one just wants to refocus the issue on men at every turn. I guess I see where ‘What about the menz?!’ comes from now. I have no objection to countering gendered-tropes that place all the responsibility to avoid rape on women. I don’t have a problem with rape prevention articles that focus on preventing male-on-female rape.… Read more »
You acknowledge that female-perpetrated male rape is non-existent as far as society is concerned, and thus men aren’t instructed to wear the “right” clothes or watch their drink, then it is sleazy and dishonest (not to mention illogical) to ignore what women do face, demand a feminist to react to something that doesn’t exist, and then ascribe the worst possible motive to the feminist. Well, if they go get raped, they’re told they got lucky, or were too weak and thus not worthy of any kind of protection. And this, REGARDLESS of how they dress, what they drink, how they… Read more »
““Only problem is, that analogy was made up by a feminist.” That analogy has been used numerous times to blame women for having the audacity to drink and exist in front of men.” As the one who brought it up, I will once again say that it was Mary Koss who made the analogy. I think it’s a bad analogy, and it sounds as if other people do, too. If the woman’s drinking doesn’t matter, then why bring it up at all? The article seems to suggest that there’s some set point in which a drunk (not passed out, merely… Read more »
Most of the alcohol and rape discussions leave me rolling my eyes because of the disingenuousness at so many levels. This comment from Hugh Ristik is an example – “All the tips are about preventing male-on-female rape, as if that’s the only type of rape that guys may want to try to prevent.” No, it’s as if they’re reacting to the fact that women are always told how to not be raped; we basically incorporate it into our everyday behavior. It’s as if they’re reacting to the Just World culture that likes to see women punished for unlady-like behavior (such… Read more »
@DLF: “I agree that it is problematic to conflate “men” and “initiators”, but I also feel that you can’t always tackle all issues at the same time.” But to “tackle” this issue all you have to do is NOT conflate them. If you actually do not think they are equal all you have to do is say what you mean. Are you saying the writer knows they are not the same, but decided to use inaccurate language? Why would you do that? I assume people are capable of saying what they mean. She said “men” so I assume she meant… Read more »
“erases…”.
I saw that coming, but I’m tired of appending several paraphraphs of disclaimers to my comments, just to foreclose every conceivable way of hairsplitting to detract from the main point.
I’m outta here.
DFL: It is absolutely possible to separate the issue without conflating “men” and “initiators”. It is absolutely possible to discuss rape and focusing on situations where men are the rapist and women are the victims without excluding the possibility that men can be the victims. I find it morally imperative to do so. I comment a lot about male rape victims, but I take care and effort to try to not write anything which denies the existence and pain of female rape victims. It is also possible to consider the logical implications of the statements one make. You for instance… Read more »
@Hugh Tipping Ristik:
I agree that it is problematic to conflate “men” and “initiators”, but I also feel that you can’t always tackle all issues at the same time.
On the FC vs. NSWATM snipe: I find threads that go “Feminist site X said Y and that is so wrong!” to be more aligned to FC’s mission, and I happen to generally find them boring.
Since you asked to discuss that over there, I commented in your open thread, and won’t comment on that any more over here.
http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2011/12/01/end-of-the-year-clearance-open-thread-noh/#comment-202430
If I’m make-up less and bra-less, I might have people switch pronouns more than once in a conversation, with me probably ignoring their blunder because I’m focused about why I’m there.
It was funny though, seeing them struggle with using he, then she, then he again, then she again…and then avoiding pronouns altogether.
My look is generally androgynous with my clothing pointing in the female direction at least usually enough, but I still do have small breasts, and this was a non-tight t-shirt, and my voice is androgynous. I love to fuck with their expectation if anything.
South Carolina Boy writes about the question, “Are you a boy?”
http://southcarolinaboy.wordpress.com/2011/12/02/are-you-a-boy/
Great writing.
@DFL, No, I’m not imagining a scenario like that. Very well, I’ll take your word for it. I’m saying that a) The car-crash analogy with drunk pedestrian and sober driver is bullshit, regardless of gender, because sex is not an accident: Unlike in a situation where a drunk pedestrin stumbles in front of your car, you have agency: You have the time to make a decision if you want sex or not and to express “no” if you don’t. This holds regardless of gender. I agree with you on this point, narrowly. Yes, as you observe, the sober party still… Read more »
@DFL: I don’t care much about whether the headline says “for intiators” or – catering to common scripts – “for guys”. If I did I’d be probably be reading Feminist Critics instead of NSWATM. So, in your view FC is the place where the distinctions between “guys” and “initiators” are discussed, and those “common scripts” you refer to are examined wrt the problems they make, while it is de rigueur to conflate them on NSWATM because, well, we know what is being mean? And this (alleged by you) lack of intellectual rigour and tacit acceptance of hurtful and inaccurate “common… Read more »
Except “initiators” and “guys” are two completely different things. While I may be psychic I cannot read your mind over the internet if I only have a screen name. Nor is there any excuse for someone who claims to be fighting for equality to believe that guys=initiators.
The way that article is written is if Person A and Person B are drunk and have sex the guy is a rapist.
The car-crash analogy with drunk pedestrian and sober driver is bullshit, regardless of gender, because sex is not an accident: Unlike in a situation where a drunk pedestrin stumbles in front of your car, you have agency: You have the time to make a decision if you want sex or not and to express “no” if you don’t. This holds regardless of gender. Only problem is, that analogy was made up by a feminist. If someone at Feminist Critics had made the analogy, they would have made it so that the woman was driving. Because the car in this analogy… Read more »
I have certainly experienced the whole “mistaken identity” sexual assault. A friend of mine came over from a bar one night so completely drunk, she couldn’t stand up, and I let her sleep over. So she climbed into my bed in the middle of the night and started telling me that she wanted me. Only problem was, she thought I was her room mate who, apparently, she had a whole lot of pent up sexual desire for. She kept telling me she wanted me and started taking off her clothes, grabbing my body, one moment calling me by my name,… Read more »
Hugh Ristik: No, I’m not imagining a scenario like that. I’m saying that a) The car-crash analogy with drunk pedestrian and sober driver is bullshit, regardless of gender, because sex is not an accident: Unlike in a situation where a drunk pedestrin stumbles in front of your car, you have agency: You have the time to make a decision if you want sex or not and to express “no” if you don’t. This holds regardless of gender. I merely stayed with gendered examples because the poster who introduced the analogy did so in a gendered way. b) Back to #2… Read more »
Hugh, mate, we’ve been over this, there was a whole thread a while back, or at least I think there was…
Someone wanna help me out with this?
Is anyone else bothered by the fact that an article entitled “5 rape prevention tips (for guys)”, doesn’t give us guys any tips about how to avoid rape ourselves? All the tips are about preventing male-on-female rape, as if that’s the only type of rape that guys may want to try to prevent. I was hoping that at least one or two of the tips would be how I can prevent myself from getting raped. For instance, I could really use help avoiding getting sexually assaulted or pressured by drunk women. But wait! According to the article, the only relevant… Read more »
I meant to write “You’re not <my brother’s name>!” but I forgot to use HTML entities for < and > and it got swallowed as a tag.
There are a couple things at play here. 1. It’s the one with the intent and initiative who has the responsibility to ensure that valid consent is given before proceeding. Neither level of intoxication nor gender of either person involved affect this. This should be the easy and self-evident rule for most people one would think. but no. The Feministe post failed to point this out, leaving the responsibility always with the man regardless of whether he initiates or she does. That is problematic as hell and it does victim blame any men who have been raped by intoxicated women.… Read more »