Trigger warning for discussion of rape.
I am a ridiculous Melissa McEwan fangirl, and this post today cements my love:
Also: I suspect, though I could be wrong, that if the letter-writer had been a woman whose platonic male friend had twice masturbated in bed with her, while staring at her and touching her while she slept, instead of a gay male whose platonic male friend did the same, male Professional Advice Columnist Cary Tennis might not have been quite so quick to encourage her to try to see things from his perspective.
One of the things about the rape culture is that it depends on men feeling, and being told, that it was nothing of any consequence when they are sexually violated, surely not a sexual violation, because that’s something that happens to women, and eww no one wants to be like them.
Men, of course, are sexually violated, and, when they are, they shouldn’t be admonished to pretend they weren’t, or to get over it, or to (FOR FUCK’S SAKE) “meet with him and have a frank talk. You might begin by saying that you care deeply about him but there are some things he has done that you find hard to accept. Maybe he can tell you something about what’s been going on in his life, things that he has not mentioned, things that don’t make him look good, things that will help you understand why he did the things he did.”
Right on, Liss. Fighting against rape means fighting against all kinds of rape– not just the kinds that happen to women.
@ Blackhumor “If you draw the line firmly at “…thinks she could…”, then it’s possible for certain (generally large) people to rape certain other (generally timid) people without ever being aware they were raping them” I think the more pertinent question is ‘when is a woman not a rapist’ in this ‘thinks he could’ scenario? After all, a man’s gender identity(hell, you could argue thus his membership in the human race) is contingent on sexual behavior with women. Every time a woman initiates sex with a man, she’s implicitly put a metaphorical gun to his head (refuse and you’re not… Read more »
“the Implication” is not so bizarre: You folks are getting caught up on if it’s “rape” or not.
That’s like trying to compare robbery and extortion. One implies violence – the other implies other ramifications for failure to comply with a person’s demands.
It’s simple: don’t call it rape (which is generally understood to confer violence as part of the act.) Use another word or phrase – how about “Sexual Extortion?” We have “sexual exploitation” – why not use other words to describe other situations?
I say we call it “Sexual Extortion” and be done with it.
“Let’s look at the case of “The Implication” from the video you linked to. I don’t believe being on a boat makes meaningful consent diminished” The whole point of being on the boat was that it did. Because if he threatened her, she couldn’t run away, because she was (theoretically) surrounded by ocean. “, and I’m skeptical that the implication of inescapable violence exists unless the douchebag guy does something to suggest its potential.” Well, on the one hand he was pretty clear on his intent to not actually rape her. On the other hand the whole point of the… Read more »
On the topic of a “spectrum” of consent:
My personal experience with women and the question “Do you want to have sex?” is an answer like “Maybe … why don’t you convince me?” or “Hehe, I dunno.”
Mostly given while batting their eyes or some otherwise immature coyness. I find it infuriating after the fact – so I just interpret it as a “Yes!”
@Hugh Tipping: “I understand a spectrum to be continuous. If there are categories, then it’s not continuous, and it’s not a spectrum. ”
Consider light for a moment. It is very certainly a spectrum, being an analogue spread of electromagnetic energy at any given wavelength. Yet one can categorize part of that spectrum as “red”, part of it as “blue”, part of it as “ultraviolet”, etc. There are blurry borders between the categories, but categories certainly exist.
@barry warkentin Deutsch, Heh. Chalk it up to my lack of skill with graphics; the intent was to show a spectrum. I understand a spectrum to be continuous. If there are categories, then it’s not continuous, and it’s not a spectrum. That something troubles you does not establish that it isn’t true. Barry, it troubles me, and I’m skeptical that it’s true. I think we actually agree pretty much on the reality. We just disagree about whether “spectrum” is the right way to describe it. There are of course many individual rapes that can be definitely distinguished from many individual… Read more »
@barry warkentin: Thinking upon this further, I feel like your insistence on a rape spectrum or continuum isn’t so much a realization about rape/sex/etc. as it is a realization about the nature of the world at large. Categories are always (or at least almost always) fuzzy. We can make people question their distinction between a couch and a chair, for example, by introducing something between a chair and a couch. And when people finally ascribe the name “loveseat” to that, we could simply confuse people again by introducing something between a couch and a loveseat. We could continue this process… Read more »
I’m going to go with Xakudo on this: On the one hand, there are behaviors that clearly lead to non-consentual or less-consentual-than-normal sex, and yet would not legally be called rape in most states or any state. (partly because the legal standard for what rape is is rather too high, but even besides that.) For example, getting a woman passed out drunk in order to have sex with her is clearly rape. Having pre-approved sex with a woman who drank a glass of wine an hour ago is clearly not rape. So then what’s deliberately getting a woman just drunk… Read more »
@barry warkentin: Rape is one end of a spectrum: I think acknowledgment of that spectrum is what the word “rapey” is getting at. Refusing to acknowledge that a spectrum exists isn’t realistic, in my opinion. Sure. And there is also an incest spectrum, with having sex with your sister on one end and hugging her on the other. I totally agree with you that we can look at things through a lens of a “rape spectrum”, and I agree that there are valid insights that can be drawn from that. But it is only one particular lens, and overemphasizing that… Read more »
I don’t think rape vs. non-rape are just different points on the same continuum. I think they are categorically different, exactly as the graphic in your post suggests (the graphics does not show a continuum). Heh. Chalk it up to my lack of skill with graphics; the intent was to show a spectrum. Yet even though there are spectrums of pressure and recklessness, I am troubled by the implication of the terms “spectrum” and “continuum” that rape cannot be categorically distinguished from non-rape. That something troubles you does not establish that it isn’t true. There are of course many individual… Read more »
The reliance of the word “rapey” on the existence of some spectrum on continuum would be an excellent reason to reject it as describing behaviors other than rape, attempted rape, or recklessness likely to result in rape (e.g. ignoring supposed “token resistance,” having sex with people who are so intoxicated that they are minimally responding). I don’t think rape vs. non-rape are just different points on the same continuum. I think they are categorically different, exactly as the graphic in your post suggests (the graphics does not show a continuum). I agree that inside those categories, we might see spectrums,… Read more »
“But MRA is used as a codeword by misogynists, and as I’ve said before does NOT literally mean “men’s rights activist”. BH is totally right; that is indeed how the word is used – BY SOME. read what the man said, note that he used the passive. The question is who uses it this way. Paul Elam? No, he uses it differently. Who uses it this way? Dishonest feminists who can’t admit that MRAs might have a point in some areas, that they might be right and feminists wrong in some areas. I think Barry is right, he may well… Read more »
Rape is one end of a spectrum:
I think acknowledgment of that spectrum is what the word “rapey” is getting at. Refusing to acknowledge that a spectrum exists isn’t realistic, in my opinion.
The word “rapey” bothers me.
You knows what’s really “rapey”? Rape, that’s what. Or attempted rape.
Apart from those things, calling any other boundary violation “rapey” either (a) elevates it to the wrongness off rape, or (b) downgrades rape to the level of a lesser violation and trivializes rape… unless there is evidence that a boundary violator was planning or attempting rape and that boundary violation was merely the first step.
I gurantee you some secret cabal did not get together in a darkly lit room and decide, in hushed whispered tones, to secretly replace the word “misogynist” with MRA (or Folger’s crystals for that matter) No one’s going to believe me, but I made up the term. Or, at least, I made up and began using the term “men’s right advocate” in a Usenet discussion in the mid-1990s. I was looking for a polite alternative to “anti-feminist,” which many of the folks I was arguing with objected to. As far as I know, I was the first to use the… Read more »
@tft: Is making women feel uncomfortable not sexist?(Blackhumor) Treating them like an equal means I dont make them feel any way. The onus is on them to view the situation as they choose. So when I am out walking late at night and coming up on a woman she decides whether to worry if I am the rapist or nice guy. The truth is the exact same for me, is the guy(woman) walking up behind me going to beat me or say hello? My choice is to decide what view of the world I wish to see. Now that sounds… Read more »
But MRA is used as a codeword by misogynists, and as I’ve said before does NOT literally mean “men’s rights activist”. Maybe by people who would rather dismiss the entire movement by doing things like intentionally and unfairly painting up the extremists of that movement as representation of the whole. Unless this is some more of that feminist redefining of language and terms. Perhaps it’s just me, but for me “rapey” > “profoundly creepy”. Well considering that one could range from harmlessly weird to discomforting to dangerous and the other is pretty much dangerous from the get go (unless you… Read more »
“But MRA is used as a codeword by misogynists, and as I’ve said before does NOT literally mean “men’s rights activist”.
No, no it isn’t. It really really isn’t. I gurantee you some secret cabal did not get together in a darkly lit room and decide, in hushed whispered tones, to secretly replace the word “misogynist” with MRA (or Folger’s crystals for that matter)
Please, stop being deliberately obtuse. Not only is it getting really old, but as Skidd has pointed out- it violates the rules of the blog.
Ok, apparently it’s just me then. But you get my point, I hope. Though I honestly should have used the same word twice in retrospect, not using it twice was in order to not be repetitive and not because I actually consider the act any different gender reversed. It’s ALSO rapey when a woman does it and it’s ALSO profoundly creepy when a man does it, if you happen to consider one of those words worse. @Skidd: Not all advocates for men’s rights, “MRAs” in particular. I think obviously by posting on this site I consider myself a masculinist. But… Read more »
I’ll third that “rapey” definitely leaves a worst taste than “profoundly creepy”. But I’m a girl, of course, I don’t get to decide for men what is worse. I’m not sure if you realize that you’re participating in the fallacy of “Evidence of Absence”. I mean, for all the times everyone hears “Feminism is not a monolith” and not to judge all feminism or all feminists by what Valerie Solanas/Twisty Faster/Eve Bit First say; can all us men’s advocates (I definitely think of myself as one, and while I agree with some feminism tenets, others boggle me — I can’t… Read more »
Yeah me too… you actually think being called “rapey” is on the same level as being called creepy?
For me rapey is also ‘more wrong’ than profoundly creepy.
@Tamen: “Perhaps it’s just me, but for me “rapey” > “profoundly creepy”. ”
It’s just you.
@Paul Hobson: Agreed with that. @tft: Is making women feel uncomfortable not sexist? @Skidd: Show me a non-bad MRA and I’ll retract my statement. @Tamen: No, actually I had read Skidd’s post as saying “misandrist”, so I used “misandrist” too. @ballgame: My analogy was not a shifting of the goalposts, it’s what she actually believes. Which is really pretty clear from her post (she spends most of the paragraph on how she believes false rape accusations are essentially nonexistant), so I don’t know where you can accuse me of trying to read her mind. Also, you clearly didn’t read my… Read more »
@ew
What’s more is also that it’s not only a “you have the right to break up over sexual incompatibility” (which I think is reasonable), but a “if your boyfriend is sexually incompatible, it’s because he hates women”.