Feministe has been posting recently about men who don’t like particular sex acts, namely, period sex and cunnilingus.
Everyone has the right to say no. This includes men. For what it was worth, I think Jill did make a gesture towards there being people with “legitimate” reasons (spine issues, disliking the sight of blood) not to like cunnilingus or period sex. The problem with that, though, is that there is no illegitimate reason to say no to any sex act.
“I hate the taste of pussy” is an okay reason not to eat pussy (although may I suggest dental dams?). “I can’t breathe when I eat people out” is an okay reason not to eat pussy. “I was forced to eat a woman out and now it triggers me” is an okay reason not to eat pussy. “Dunno, just don’t like it” is an okay reason not to eat pussy. Any reason is a good reason not to eat pussy. This is because it is your body, and therefore what you do with it is no one else’s business.
However, the right to say no applies both ways. If a cis woman’s partner says “I don’t want to have sex during your period,” she has the perfect right to say “well, I want sex during my period, so I will go seek a more compatible sex partner” and stop having sex with that partner. Ideally, that would quickly separate out the things each partner is not willing to compromise on from the things they are.
Of course, this isn’t the perfect solution. One partner may end up compromising on something that’s really a dealbreaker for them for the sake of the relationship, or because they love the person, or because they’re so desperate for a partner, any partner, that they want to, and this is non-optimal. However, given that all the other options are, at best, extremely rapey, it’s the best of a lot of shitty options.
And, yes, “pressure all men into eating pussy or having period sex because otherwise they’re misogynists” is really rapey.
I think, however, Jill did have two decent points that were lost in the miasma of “it is okay to say no to sex.” The first is that there are a certain number of people who are honestly disgusted by pussies. (My favorite is a female friend of mine in high school who wouldn’t masturbate because touching your vulva is disgusting.) Sometimes, this manifests as a dude who won’t eat pussy or have period sex because OMG GROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSS.
Don’t fuck that guy! He is a douchebag and also probably not good in bed. Also, do not fuck anyone who thinks penises are OMG GROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSS, because they are also douchebags and probably not good in bed. But the problem is not the lack of oral sex; the problem is the disgust for a person’s genitalia. Pussy-possessors of the world, even if Pussies Are Gross Dude has period sex, you still shouldn’t fuck him, because he thinks your genitalia (and thus your sexuality) is disgusting.
Her second decent point is that if your partner doesn’t care about your pleasure, that is a giant Red Flag. Everyone gets to have boundaries, of course. But people who are actually good in bed have accepted that no two people’s kinks match up 100% and in a sexual relationship sometimes you will have to do sex acts you’re not that fond of. If you refuse to do any sex act that doesn’t turn you on, no matter how much it turns your partner on, you’re kind of a douchebag. Compromise is what grown-up sexual relationships are all about.
“You’re missing the entire point of that period sex article. ” And you’re mising the point of this post. this post is saying it is rapey to guilt-trip and manilpulate your partner into a sex act he doesn’t want to do. the point of the original article are to at issue, its rapey and hypocritical tactics are the issue. Believe me, we all get the genital-shaming bit. Penises are considered deadly weapons in the Patriarchy and in many comments in feminist spaces; we get the shaming bit from the day we’re born. Words for vaginas and penises are used as… Read more »
Stacie: I certainly agre with the non-niceness (to put it mildly) of saying “eewwwww icky period vag”, but if that was the point then the author would be much better served by not writing you’re kind of a dick if you think periods are disgusting Note, she didn’t write that you’re kind of a dick if you say in an abbrasive manner that period are disgusting, no she wrote that you’re kind of a dick for thinking it. Basically, dudes who have sex with women and think period sex is disgusting are the brothers-in-badnews-sexytime with people who think oral sex… Read more »
You’re missing the entire point of that period sex article. It was not written to say that men who won’t have period sex suck and they shouldn’t have a choice. It was pointing out that vaginas have been looked at as these gross, dirty things for too long and it makes vagina-owners ashamed and self-conscious. So when your boyfriend says “eewwwww icky period vag” it’s not exactly the nicest way to treat your significant other.
My wife had unprotected sex with some random before we where married. When she came home she encouraged me to go down on her which i did. I found out about this after we got married. Now many years later I just cant do it. I gag getting close and have vomited several times attempting. A couple of times the vomiting happened when I was under the pressure of “if you wont do this you don’t love me and perhaps we have no future”. The woman told everybody she knew that I hated women so much that the smell of… Read more »
@typhonblue I realize, in retrospect, that that was what you were doing, and I totally see where you were coming from. I have some idea of how bad that script is for men, but obviously, never having experienced it, I’ll never fully understand it. I just try my best, as I hope many men do when it comes to how much the script sucks for women. I also agree that what happened to Tamen was rape. Anorgasmia is an issue for a lot of people (and has been for me as well, at certain times) and is fraught with all… Read more »
@ Brett I never intended to make it an issue of who has it worse. I just got the impression (wrongly or rightly) that you might not have been aware just how profoundly bad the standard script is for men as well. At least in my opinion. My interest isn’t in deciding who has it worse, my interest is in a clear understanding of how things suck that incorporates all points of view. “Also, the situation you described is absolutely awful. I’ve experienced similar things, and they have been absolutely sickening every single time.” Well, yeah. Because what happened to… Read more »
@Schala
Wow, I had no idea. I certainly respect both of you for defending men’s point of view, but I think my point still stands. The Standard Sex Script is shitty for everyone. I don’t want to get into the ways in which it’s shitty for women, because that’s not the point of this blog and it’s kind if hard for me to talk about anyway, for personal reasons, but nobody is a winner there. That’s why this blog exists.
Anecdote here, but a lot of people think I’m a man too, on feminist blogs, because I defend men’s point of view, participation and consideration.
It’s part of a consideration for other trans women, and also men, who I don’t wish to live through the same thing I did. That’s because I lived it.
Typhonblue’s motive is different, but no less about avoiding this fate for others.
@Brett K
Typhonblue is a woman btw.
@typhonblue That’s the script as you (and probably a lot of men) experience it. And it’s a shitty script. But trust me, the script offered to women is no less shitty. I don’t want to play Oppression Olympics here, so can we just agree that no one is really a winner here? Because I really do sympathize, and I feel like detailing my experiences on this blog would only feel like an attempt to downplay yours, and that’s not something I want to do. @f. I basically agree with you. I think we interpreted the Feministe post differently (and maybe… Read more »
Discovering how easy it is to fake orgasms when practicing safe sex and resigning quite quickly to just enjoy the sex and not chase the elusive orgasm, thus removing addition anxiety issues probably helped me get past it faster.
@ Tamen
“For quite a while after a girl started to fuck while I slept I were anorgasmic.”
🙁 I’m sorry Tamen.
Brett K: I’m pretty sure there exists men who have misogynistic reasons for not giving head, just as there are women who have misogynistic reasons for not giving head. As I’ve stated in an earlier comment: Because even if the reason for a person’s aversion for period sex is misogynistic it is still a big no-no to pressure him into having it. Two wrongs do not make a right. typhonblue: For quite a while after a girl started to fuck while I slept I were anorgasmic. This caused no end of hassle and I quickly learnt to fake an orgasm… Read more »
@Brett You know what, your idea is pervasive in our society today. You can have it all if you just wait and find that “right” person. I have no doubt that sex is important to many people. Just like money is important to others and thin women for some others. That still doesnt change the fact that if you relate to someone on multiple levels but still feel the need to show them the door because they dont have period sex, you are probably just a tad shallow. I would think its not rocket science to figure out someone doesnt… Read more »
Well, Brett, if you ask me there are really narratives for each gender that suggest we should all be downplaying sexual desire. For women there’s the whole “ladies only have sex to keep a man, they don’t actually like it” thing, and for men there’s the “too driven by sexual desire, prone to exploiting partners” thing. Like, yes, people do need to be careful that they aren’t pressuring a partner to perform sex acts that partner isn’t into… but at the same time, there is simply nothing wrong with wanting a satisfying sex life, articulating one’s desires, and taking steps… Read more »
@ Brett “There’s also the fact that women’s sexual desires are often ignored or written off.” I think men’s sexual desires outside of PiV intercourse (or the idea that a lot of men don’t get off from PiV intercourse) are often ignored or actively stigmatized. Wanting oral sex seems to be seen as being a disgusting sexual imposition on a woman and/or a way of dominating her. Wanting anal sex is the same as wanting oral sex except ten times worse. Wanting a hand job instead of PiV sex is rarely addressed because in the stereotypical sex acts hierarchy, men… Read more »
@Tamen As for your last paragraph – yes, when applied in broader terms as your example it probably will not affect you as much as if your SO said so to your face. It does however contribute to the cultural narrative about what sex acts one can’t refuse – hence a part of rape culture as defined by Ozy. And given enough of those advice columns saying women are misandrist when they won’t do blow-jobs the chances that a sex partner say it to your face increases as it becomes a social accepted stance. True enough. I think the counterexample… Read more »
Except that it’s not, if it’s enough to make you unhappy. Sex is extremely important to a lot of people. Lack of sexual satisfaction is a good enough reason to end a relationship – even if only one sex act is leading to that lack of satisfaction.
“Hey, this is really important to me and I don’t know if I can be in a relationship without it, so we probably need to figure out some kind of compromise” is not an ultimatum, it’s a call for negotiations about a compromise. Not a bad thing at all – unless you actually don’t intend to compromise. If that’s the case then the negotiations for a compromise will quickly devolve into an ultimatum. Ultimatums preclude compromises. “Hey, this is really important to me and I can’t be in a relationship without it, so you need to do this or else… Read more »
then it’s shallow to break up with someone over intercourse (Brett)
Yep, now how simple was that…………
@Schala True enough, they are quite different, although either one could be a dealbreaker for some people. I was mostly just arguing that if it’s shallow to break up with someone over one sex act (say, oral, or period sex, or fisting or roleplay or…), then it’s shallow to break up with someone over intercourse – something that I think a lot of people (especially straight dudes) value very highly and wouldn’t want to go without. I don’t think it’s possible to argue that one is shallow while the other isn’t without arguing for a hierarchy of sex acts, which… Read more »
I think that all of these situations could potentially be dealbreakers for some people. I don’t get to decide for someone whether or not they should stay in a relationship; I only get to decide for me. If someone hates nose-pickers, they should probably break up with me, because anyone who gets involved with me is going to see me pick my nose at some point. If someone called me (or a dude version of me, let’s say) a pervert or pedo, I would definitely break up with them. If someone refused to have period sex? Eh, that depends, and… Read more »
Titfortat: If you ask for my personal opinion, yes, I would think that that would be off. So off that I probably would think/assume (to the extent I was bothered to) that they didn’t get along on pretty much every other level. My thinking that would probably have negligent effect on that person’s decision to break up – and it would also be after the fact. Since we’re into hypotethical situations, what if he asked her for period sex and she replied with calling him pervert and the vilest names for asking for such a thing? Another example: if the… Read more »
An ultimatium is always coercion by intention. Although a low level coercion. One use ultimatiums because that is the only way or the fastest way to persuade someone. It is often used when a pro-argumentation does not succeed. It is persasion by might in the form of a threat which will be put in effect by the one putting forth the ultimatium in case of non-compliance. An ultimatium without a plausible and effective threat is laughable. The question is rather; when is low-level coercion acceptable? A hard question for which I have no clear answers, but I would be really… Read more »
@Tamen
People can do whatever they want, but lets put this idea(period sex) into some kind of context. If you have a really bad period, you potentially will be bleeding for about 6-12 days, give or take. So, that leaves roughly 19-25 days for the opportunity of having great, mindblowing sex. Do you not think that if someone gets along on pretty much every other level except period sex but they still feel the need to leave because of that, is that not just a little off???