Trigger warning for mentions of suicide, domestic abuse, and rape.
I do.
I care about every boy that was ever called a fag or a pussy or a sissy for being emotional, or sensitive, or unathletic, or just not manly enough. I care about the boys who are afraid they’ll lose their manhood if they admit they like boys that way. I care a whole fuckload about the ones, gay and straight and other, who commit suicide about it.
I care about the three-year-old that just wants a doll. I care about the fourteen-year-old who just wants a pair of high heels. I care about the (straight!) college student who loves his skirts and dresses and will never be able to wear them outside the confines of hippie school.
I care that men are less likely to get to college than women, and I care that no one seems to be pissed the fuck off about it.
I care that, although their median income is still higher than women, men’s real wages have remained stationary since the 1970s while women’s have grown.
I care about male rape survivors. I care that some people think male rape can’t exist. I care that our justice system is ignoring systematic rape of prisoners, and that many people regard it just part of the punishment. I care about the twelve-year-old boy whose rape by a teacher is regarded as good luck instead of pedophilia. I care about the rape survivors who have never realized that what they went through was rape.
I care about stay-at-home dads and men who want to be stay-at-home dads. I care about men who want to do their share of the child-rearing, whether they work outside the home or not. I care that fathers are far less likely to get custody of their children in a divorce.
I care about male domestic abuse survivors. I care that many people consider abuse of men to be a joke, the stuff of sitcoms. I care that many people see male abuse survivors as weak and not real men. I care that there are no male-only abuse shelters.
I care that the most male-dominated jobs are also the most life-threatening, from lumberjacks to firefighters to soldiers. I care that formerly male-dominated blue-collar jobs have disappeared overseas, leaving many working-class men without a livelihood. I care about men who want to be elementary-school teachers and nurses, and the mockery they get, and the fact that they are far more likely to get promoted to doing administration and management because a male nurse? Whoever heard of such a thing!
I care that women can’t be drafted while men can.
I care about every man who doesn’t seek help for his mental illness because real men tough it out. I care about men who find alcoholism more manly than therapy. I care about mostly-male soldiers with PTSD that has never been treated. I care that, even though women are more likely to attempt suicide, men are more likely to succeed.
I care that men live four years less than women. I care that unmarried men are less likely to go to the doctor for regular checkups and more likely to ignore their illnesses until they get too bad to treat.
I care about men who have been virgin-shamed. I care about men who don’t really want casual sex but have it anyway because they’re supposed to like it. I care about men who have never felt desired. I care about men who date thin women while they dream of BBW. I care about guys who pedestalize women, and guys who think they have to become jerks or remain celibate, and pick-up artists and dudebros and Nice Guys ™.
I care about how hard it is to keep guys– talented guys, guys who have a passion for singing and dancing and acting– in musical theater.
I care about men who like romance novels. I care about male Twilight fans. I think they have bad taste, but I care.
I care that no one fucking teaches male college students how to do laundry and clean their rooms and cook, as if they’re not going to have to do that ever.
I care about men who had to learn to fight or get beaten up themselves. I care about men who can’t relate except with their fists. I care about men who have repressed every emotion except for anger. I care about the bullshit that is “boys don’t cry.”
I care about the health problems athletes have– even student athletes– because they’re encouraged to play through injuries and given inadequate safety equipment. I care that football players have long-term neurological damage from multiple concussions. I care that, for too many minority and poor men, sports seems like the only way out.
I care that I could go on with this list for hours and still not be done. I care because this is not about men, this is about my father and my boyfriend and my best friends and the guys whose books I’ve stolen and the guys whose hearts I’ve broken and the guy who broke mine and the greatest English teacher the world has ever known and my Greek professor and next year’s roommates and Neil Gaiman and Gerard Way and Joey Ramone and Jim Butcher and half of the people I have ever loved or hated or feared or wanted to be.
Now it is time for the yelling.
Feminism, overall, you are doing a shitty fucking job of incorporating men. Yes, there are many feminists who are awesome about raising awareness of men’s issues; yes, there are counselors of male survivors of domestic abuse; yes, men have benefited as a side effect of feminism. But overall, do you see major feminist blogs posting about issues mostly of concern to men even half as much as they post about issues mostly of concern to women?
Uh-huh. Thought so.
I mean, have we learned nothing from when we got black people in the movement, and poor people, and queer people, and trans people, and disabled people? The side of “well, we shouldn’t help with that, it’s not our thing really” has never, ever, ever, ever turned out to be the right side! You would think we would have caught on to the trend by now!
And what’s that about “well, men should start their own anti-prison-rape and pro-stay-at-home-dads campaigns”? Yes, ideally, they would. But the men’s rights movement is a bit of a non-starter and, frankly, we are going to need people trained in analysis and activism by the single largest and most politically powerful movement about gender issues! It would be perfectly fine to have a movement mostly focused on women, if the movement focused on men even existed.
Listen, ladies and gentlemen, we are not going to solve this whole sexism thing as long as we’re only looking at half the problem. You want women to be equal to men, then you damn well have to make men equal to women.
And, no, a bunch of talking about how men need to be more feminist does not count as work on men’s rights. I agree, men need to be more feminist. But we’re not going to get them more feminist unless we show them what feminism can do for them, and that involves working on their problems in addition to being all “men can fight rape too!” Well, you know what, women can fight gender-policing too.
MRAs, no, you are not getting off the hook.
In fact, you are the single most childish excuse for a worthwhile movement it has been my misfortune to see.
First of all, sexism is not a zero-sum game. Just because sexist shit happens to men doesn’t mean sexist shit doesn’t happen to women. The shit is raining down on everyone! You’re stupid to complain “men have so much shit and women don’t have any shit at all” because, well, that’s not true, and also because it’s completely irrelevant. The point is not an equivalent distribution of shit to everyone, the point is to find out what’s throwing the shit on everybody and make it stop!
Second, women are not evil. Let me say this again in big letters for the confused people: WOMEN ARE NOT EVIL BITCHES OUT TO GET YOU. We are people, just like everyone else, and some of us are bastards and some of us are saints and most of us are just muddling through. Some feminists thought that this whole “sexism” thing was the fault of evil rapey woman-hating men back in the seventies, but as it turns out with a few shining exceptions men don’t hate women. Sometimes they have mistaken beliefs about women, and sometimes incentive structures are set up so that sexist behavior is rewarded, and sometimes a lot of other stuff that’s nobody’s fault, but very rarely is someone like “aha! I will go oppress women today!” In fact, it would be easier if it was, because we could just go shoot that guy and then the problem would be solved and candy and kittens would fall from the sky.
Sometimes it seems like your entire movement is just taking a bunch of ridiculous shit some people said in the seventies and changing the genders so instead of saying “all men are rapists” you’re saying “all women are golddigging bitch whores who cheat on you with men with big black cocks.”
Third, some things are not issues. Chicks liking the guy with the motorcycle more than the Mathlete? Not the most important social issue of our times. (Although Mathletes are damn sexy.)
Fourth, and most importantly, movements are supposed to move. Hey, wait a second, let me yell again. MOVEMENTS ARE SUPPOSED TO MOVE. I look around the men’s rights movement and you know what I see? Some two-person protests where someone pretends to be Batman, some petitions that can’t gather a thousand signatures, a few activist groups with almost no political power, some pick-up artists, some socially awkward people not dating anyone anymore and a whole lot of complaining in comments sections. Listen, you guys. Shakesville has organized letter-writing campaigns that got ads taken off TV, Jessica Valenti and Jaclyn Friedman have published books and spoken at colleges, the SlutWalks have started a damn international movement. It is totally possible! I mean, I’m a little bit of a hypocrite here because I’m a blogger who does a lot of complaining in comments sections, but I’ve also volunteered for Planned Parenthood and feminist congresscritters, and I have my congresspeople’s numbers on speed dial, and I’ve signed so many petitions I get phone calls every day with people trying to make me give them money.
You want to know why your movement isn’t going anywhere? Because you don’t have enough footsoldiers like me and too many footsoldiers who want to sit in a corner and talk about how when the apocalypse happens those women who didn’t like me in high school are totally going to be sorry.
This post is what No, Seriously, What About Teh Menz? is about: creating a male-oriented gender egalitarian space, where we can concentrate on issues primarily of concern to men of all sorts– whether they’re queer or straight, white or non-white, gender-conforming or gender-non-conforming, cis or trans, disabled or abled, poor or rich– and fight anti-male sexism and misandry.
I greatly enjoyed reading this article and being a MRA i can totally see why you believe it is childish, all be it a blanket statement. I am constantly having to redefine what it means to be a male rights activist to other men all the time. I choose to be a male rights activist after training my dog. Keep with me here but when training a dog you have to be very topical, you can’t punish a dog for chewing your shoes 20 minutes ago, he won’t get it. The only way the dog will learn is to catch… Read more »
Hey! This blog is teh awesome.
Thank you. I am an incest survivor, my dad abused me for 17 years, my brother for two and an adult woman seduced me at 14. I am now disabled from PTSD and stay home with my kids. I don’t talk about what happened to me, it seems like people think I am trying to derail from what women go through. I am really not, I know that rape is worse when it happens to women. I just feel really alienated by everyone and I am tired of hearing how I am a perpetrator all the time. I have never… Read more »
Also, this may be way off, but I sometimes think the men who plead “men have it tough too” (I have been one) on a feminist forum are crying for help in their own way, not necessarily trying to undermine a feminist argument. One might do well to consider this in light of what men say to women. All people are fearful and all people can be oppressed by concepts of who they ought to be. There is no greater or lesser oppression.
This is fantastic and many great (and not-so-great, but nonetheless interesting) comments followed. I applaud the men who stand up for anything resembling equal rights for women and men because it is more difficult to stand up for the oppressed from a position of power. I also applaud the men (and women) who stand up and admit to their past abuses or their abuse of others. I cannot fathom how difficult that must be. I do think there is a HUGE amount of othering and dialog on men writ-large that feminists do, and I think it undercuts and alienates any… Read more »
I am a male heterosexual person. in the OP, I was able to Identify with many of the “anti-issues” that she posted. I was RAPED by my English teacher while attending a “very high class private boys school” . I hate to say that I Blocked it and never reported it., I just tried to forget. I was 8 yrs. old. Now, I am 67 yrs. old. I also have to say that I am grateful for Viet-Nam. I was killing that bastard that raped me every time I killed an enemy! and yea, I came home after 4 tours… Read more »
“male-oriented gender egalitarian”??
It’s a great post, but if I could make one suggestion: for those of us not fully up to date on the acronyms in the activist world, you might want to explain what an MRA is before ranting about them. I actually stopped halfway and googled for it because I was lost.
I’m so so so glad I found this site! I remember when I was in college a long, long time ago, there was a popular poster that went “I am a feminist because…” with a whole litany of the things that affect women. I wish now that there was a similar poster/poem for men, and I think it would use the stuff in here. But what would you put instead of “feminist?” I’m not too fond of “masculist” because it still creates a gender divide. But I would add this “because if I don’t want to have sex with a… Read more »
Wow! Despite the rather negative comments and despite the author’s own biasses comming through strongly I found the artical very thought provoking. I dismissed the first section about gender issues, I’m hetero and whilst not homophobe tend to have no interest whatsoever in anything to do with the gay world other than liking a few gay entertainers. I am one of the lucky men though, I came through the feminised education system relatively unscathed, I haven’t been held back but I do see massive problems for men in the failure of the education system, in the stereotyping that mothers do… Read more »
The article and comments made for a good read. Thanks to you all. However, I do not think it’s the job of feminism to incorporate men or that their lack of consideration of men’s rights to be a point of valid criticsm. Social spaces created by movements like feminism are special because they provide the oppurtunity for an oppressed group/minority to explore how to best exert their agency in a world which denies them equal social power and values less their equal contributions. In the case of feminism, men should not be excluded from participation, but men should not object… Read more »
This is a great point. And as someone pointed out earlier in the comments, a large part of the feminist movement has always been self-analytical, creating a space for women to publicly voice experiences of oppression and feelings of powerlessness in arenas where they had previously never had a voice. And no question, men absolutely need and deserve similar spaces where they can analyse and work through the issues outlined in this piece and form plans of action. I think feminism should 100% support, vacilitate and endorse the creation of these spaces and women should participate in these discussions when… Read more »
Lol, “vacilitate.” FACILITATE.
In support of your campaign to get feminists to be more inclusive, I would ask that feminists refrain from using the words “fee fees” or “feewings” when discussing men’s feelings. It strikes me as a distainful way to comment on the feelings of others. (And, hey, it’s kind of “othering” as well, if you don’t allow someone the same right to their own emotions as you have.)
I am seriously disappointed. I read the opening blog entry and thought this would be a wonderful meeting place for men and women to speak together on the issues of men`s rights. Instead, I find that a detailed and civil (if harsh) criticism, admitted by the author of the OP to contain valid points, is recommended for shunning instead of engagement. This blog is not a repudiation of the feminist exclusion of men from gender issues; it is a perfect example of it. You even told him he could not use a word until he looked it up in an… Read more »
Since the 1970’s various “Men’s Movements” have evolved (as you no doubt know) including: 1.) MRA’s, 2.) The Pro-Feminist Men’s Movement 3.) The Mythopoetic Movement put most simply. Many Feminist Women have been very supportive of the Pro-Feminist Men’s Movement. Where Men’s Groups have been effective and done what I’d consider “good work”, Feminist (and often non-Feminist) Women have been supportive. When we developed Men Stopping Rape, Inc. (Madison,WI USA) into an effective group in the mid-80’s, women (and men) supported us. When we (initially) talked about creating what became MSR, we received guarded support, because the active feminist women… Read more »
Where’s my comment I posted moments ago?
We do not allow blogspam, particularly to sites that are clearly against our interests.
Sorry. I just wanted to draw your attention to an opposing (and, I admit, disturbing) view so you could comment on that dreadful text (especially that thing about male victims of rape) so I published. Sorry again
I don’t know if it’s worth the energy. The writers and commenters there seem to have made up their minds and are quite extreme in their concept of what feminism is and how much influence it has had. If someone wants to hate and point the blame finger that much, a comment is not going to change their minds. I can only speak for myself and not the others here, but I’d rather focus on people who are willing to discuss and listen in a productive manner and agree to disagree when necessary without personal attacks. They are entitled to… Read more »
That’s perfectly alright. The author of that post twice already tried to get our attention with it, so I had seen it already. Thanks for clarifying your intent in posting it. No hard feelings! 🙂
ozymandias42, great article you wrote.
But I have to ask you something: do you or any of the blog’s authors consider yourselves to be in any way part of the men’s rights movement (albeit, as we can read in your text, not agreeing with the methods most of the movement uses)?
I identified as a feminist when I wrote the piece, but I’ve come to identify myself as a masculist in addition to a feminist afterward. 🙂 I think the men’s rights movement has some good issues, but certain groups tend towards misogyny and ineffective tactics and the marriage of PUA and the MRM has done no good for anyone.
Just a small criticism. The term ‘male rape’ anomalizes male rape victims. It also sets my teeth on edge.
Could you use the term ‘male victims of rape?’
How about just “Rape Victim.” That’s equality.
Speaking only for myself, I do not identify with the term “MRA” because I’ve found such a huge amount of the MRA movement to be toxic and hostile. I instead call myself a “masculist,” which I take to be the positive flipside of “feminist.” (It’s talked about in the FAQ as well.) Does that make sense?
Yep, it makes sense. As the men’s rights movement is not being effective (and opening itself to PUAs), it’s best to «just» be a masculist.
(It’s a shame, though, because many websites who claim to be written by «MRAs» aren’t in fact written by – true – MRAs/masculists, just people who claim to be so and, then, spread hate.)
(By the way, I’m Jose, the writer of the first comment. I’ve just found out I could write under my Facebook account, so I do it now.)
I am a bit late to the party and wanted to post something about the MRA critique. What I thought was funny is that there have been feminist complaining that the MRAs are “frighteningly effective”.
To say it that way a recent post on Fathers & Families is titled: “Bill Modeled on F & F Legislation Passes—That’s 11 Bills Signed into Law in Past 15 Months”.
Maybe it is moving?
It’s about time. As for this; “Feminism, overall, you are doing a shitty fucking job of incorporating men.” It’s not the role of feminism to incorporate men, what for? There is nothing wrong with men taking a subordinate role in it. No one can understand better what it is to be male than men, I trust men to dig deep to free themselves from what ails them. To liberate themselves. A lot of people forget the women’s movement is based on women’s self analysis, men must ask themselves questions in order to find their answers. I’d hate to see women… Read more »
Please tell me you’re not fucking serious.
I am absolutely serious, what’s wrong with men being supportive as well as receiving support when they are taking the lead?
What I understood you to be saying was that feminism should not incorporate men, but that men should be subordinate in feminism.
Well that, but it’s pretty clear to me that wriggles is at least implying that there should be a men’s movement addressing men’s issues analogous to feminism, and perhaps that women would be subordinate etc. How about having two lobes of one movement all working to fix some problems instead?
Not toxic, but not good either. I don’t see the need for subordination of anyone – some women see men’s problems better than some men. Just ask Paul Elam.
I would contend that yours is, in fact, the more influential view within the feminist movement. Of course, upon the appearance of MRAs, the same feminists tend to be shocked and offended, and in fact start precisely “attempt[ing] to do that for you.” I’ve no love for the current state of the MRA movement, but should anybody really be surprised that the outcome was our house divided? If one does not listen to what we have to say over here, should one really be so shocked and offended when some of us go over there and perhaps come to some… Read more »
I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Are you arguing that men and women can’t come to a place of unity within feminism? I think if you believe that then you badly misunderstood part of the reason for this very blog.
I’m saying so far men and women have not come to a place of unity within feminism, and so long as non-incorporating is the more influential principle (especially in deed as well as word), it will not happen. I hope places like this blog will change that, but you’ve certainly got your work cut out for you.
As for myself, I cannot support the feminism of today solely based on what I hope the feminism of tomorrow will look like.
Well, I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t think the “feminism of today” is quite the monolith that you make it out to be. I’d argue that this blog is part of the “feminism of today.” You need to read our FAQ please.
Nowhere did I claim that feminism is a monolith. My claim is only that certain ideas, while not intrinsic to feminism, nevertheless seem to be me to be more influential than their opposites. Just as my perception of feminism as a whole does not reflect much poorly on your part in it, I cannot see feminism as a whole as being much better for your part in it. If I may make a risky presentation of what I see as a similar case: Republicans are not a monolith. If I ask a Republican what it means to be be a… Read more »
It’s not the role of feminism to incorporate men, what for? There is nothing wrong with men taking a subordinate role in it. If feminism isn’t required to incorporate men then it should have relinquish its claim of being the one true way of gender equality. You can’t ignore the harms of a significant portion of the population while claiming to be its champion. No one can understand better what it is to be male than men, I trust men to dig deep to free themselves from what ails them. To liberate themselves. A lot of people forget the women’s… Read more »
Awesome.
Thanks for supporting MGTOW. I consider myself an MGTOW and I was shy in high school and skinny ans always resented many women who went after the jerks. I know a lot of mgtow men who are considered “geeks” and are love shy and some are virgins and resent women because they need female energy and nurturing and find that many women go after jerks and Macho Alpha males.Some of these man(more and more) are so bitter they have either given up on women and avoid them.Some go overseas to find non western women.Some become homosexual.Some even are married and… Read more »
To be honest, I don’t feel MGTOW is quite the solution. There are asshole women, yes, but there are also asshole men. Assholery is not gender-discriminatory. 🙂 And for every woman who loves “jerks and macho alpha males” there’s a thousand who like guys who treat her well.
That said, I do feel bad for virgins. 🙂 Long-term involuntary celibacy sucks. It makes you bitter, it makes you think you aren’t desirable, it fucks up your relationships with the other sex… Not to mention all the gendered shit men get for it.
Jacob, I think what you are describing is a very common experience with dating in your teens and early 20s (or even beyond!), Attempting to find intimate companionship is really a trial and error process that is highly individual and guaranteed to be bumpy until you get some experience. For every young guy who feels overlooked because the girls are going after The Jerks and Jocks, there are young girls who are frustrated because the guys seem to go for the High-Maintenance Princess or the Fucked Up Girl Who Needs Someone To Take Care Of Her. Most people, regardless of… Read more »
I just wanted to say, you leave the most insightful comments. 🙂
My daughter just made me read this. She also tells me you’re 19. Congratulations on being more mature in your thinking than many of the 50 year olds I know.
As a man who endured persistent sexual harassment over the past year and has literally been threatened with rape by a woman on two occasions, I commend your sentiments. There were few options for me to seek redress, and I consistently encountered resistance to my objections from male college peers. Moreover, I felt that the procedural requirements enforced on any sexual assault accusation at my school were too much; ultimately I never reported it. Even in the wake of a grassroots student campaign to create a sexual assault counselor position at my school to assist victims, the discussion was always… Read more »
Thank you for this post. I loved it.
Ozy, for some reason my real full name got shoved into the automatic info with the icon–on the comment above–could you please delete that for me? Thanks!
You should be OK now. I cleaned the information out for you and approved the comment.
Thank you! And I was glad to be reminded of the contributor info–it look like a fascinating mix of contributors, and I’ll enjoy reading over here. *doublechecks info*
Everyone,
I think it would be more productive to ignore the trolls rather than feed them with attention. I know this can be hard to do, but I think this will be more productive in the long run.