Harris O’Malley insists that our understanding of masculinity today is a bubbling stew of misunderstandings, ignorance and anxieties.
There are few cliches that I hate more than the “Men are From Mars/Women Are From Venus” line. It’s an insult to both genders, turning 50% of the human race into an exotic “other”, telling everybody that one side is so disparate and estranged from their counterpart that we may as well be entirely different species altogether. It’s an attitude I find unnecessarily divisive, encouraging both sides to have a confrontational and antagonistic relationship with the opposite sex when the majority of our differences are matters of socialization and culture rather than a side-effect of having different plumbing.
A few months back I wrote about how men’s misconceptions about women are a hinderance to relationships – whether social or sexual. Today, I want to talk about understanding men. Considering that we live in a patriarchy, it’s easy to say that male society is the default and thus we have a pretty good grasp about what being male is all about. However, there is a lot hiding under the surface that directly colors what it means to be a male in modern society – a bubbling stew of misunderstandings, ignorance and anxieties that even men don’t always realize is there… and when we do see it, we’re afraid to say anything about it.
We Don’t Know What We’re Doing…and That Scares The Hell Out of Us
I’ve talked many times about the supposed “Masculinity Crisis” – the idea that men today are somehow becoming less “manly”, forgoing the “masculine” traditions of days of yore when men grew epic beards, chased down bears, chopped down trees with their bare hands and conquered frontiers with nothing more than an axe, a gun and some old-fashioned manly know-how.
There was a path, a code that men followed, with the milestones of masculine adulthood clearly marked out: We got an education, found a career, got married, fathered a couple of children and reigned as the patriarch like our fathers did for generations before us. Men were the kings of society, women knew their place and children respected their elders.
Then everything changed. Men woke up and, in the words of Betty Friedan, there were no more bears to kill.
The social construct that said that men were the breadwinners and paterfamilias was upended as women sought – and won – increasing levels of civil equality. The role of unquestioned male dominance was coming to an end…and the traditional path of masculinity was eroding away. The entrenched gender roles – man as leader, women as subject – have been increasingly upended, and the new roles are still being developed.
Men have been so used to old-fashioned, muscular masculinity being the dominant paradigm that when it started to change, we’ve feel lost and insecure. All of the old paths that led us through the world have become overgrown and now we’re having to blaze new trails. As a result: a vast number of men feel like they’re flailing about, trying to find something, anything, that might serve as a guidepost – something that can provide a new definition of what it means to be a man.
This is no small reason as to why so many men try finding refuge in hypermasculinity. It’s a clearly defined ethos that tells men who might otherwise be feeling disenfranchised, emasculated or powerless that the key to achieving power (and with it, respect and – critically – value) is found in physical aggression, dominance and sexual conquest. Most “men’s movements” out there, whether it’s the Promise Keepers, the Pick-Up Artist community 0r the Men’s Rights blogs and forums, all reach back towards a past, trying to bring back a time of easy answers and male power. Men glamorize old-fashioned men’s men in popular culture, like Don Draper or Roger Sterling, never stopping to recognize that these role models are fundamentally broken on the inside.
Part of the problem is that there are very few role-models for modern masculinity. The “sensitive, modern man” is stereotyped as a whiney, effeminate ((which is to say: gay)) and powerless shell of a man who despairs of ever having been born a man in the first place. Pop-culture seems to revel in equating modern men with hyperdeveloped man-babies who never grow into maturity, or self-absorbed dudebros who only concern themselves with booze, partying and fucking as many women as possible. Both are shown as appealing but also as lacking some ineffable quality – a feeling that this can’t last forever and at some point it’s going to all come to a screeching halt.
This is no small part of the appeal of actors like Ryan Gosling – he’s unquestionably masculine but also not bound up in the old-fashioned definition of gender roles and sexuality, he respects women as equals and understands the struggle they have gone through. But he’s a rare beast in the media right now and was more or less thrust into the role by the “Feminist Ryan Gosling” meme.
Until we develop more, men are going to continue feeling lost and confused.
We Don’t Recognize Our Own Emotional Needs
Just as women are socialized to be deferential and passive, men are socialized to disassociate from our emotions. We’re taught from an early age that to be emotionally expressive is to be, frankly, faggy. “Boys don’t cry”, “crybaby”, “wimp”, “wuss”… these are all ways that boys are shamed into denying that we feel pain or sorrow or fear. It’s a mark of being feminine and weak – weepy and whiney emasculated messes; whereas “real” men have steely reserve and remain in control at all times. The only acceptable emotions to display are anger and determination. We are only allowed to display grief under very specific circumstances: when our fathers or our dogs die (because dogs are suitably manly animals) or viewings of “Brian’s Song”.
Even now, men can’t express affection for their male friends without suitable ironic detachment from being “bros”. The “manly” hug between brothers or friends isn’t just a straight embrace. The handshake leading into the arm across the chest maintains a level of separation and the back-pounding reinforces that there has to be a level of play-violence as well, lest someone mistake this for a more romantic moment.
This estrangement from our feelings manifests itself in almost all of “typical” male behavior. Men stereotypically fear commitment and intimacy because we’re taught from childhood not to feel comfortable with it. We all feel the desire for love, a personal connection and emotional intimacy, but we’re frequently shamed for expressing it in any “unapproved” ways… or even for having it at all.
Expressions of doubt and confusion are portrayed as weakness and men aren’t supposed to be “weak”, so we can’t ask for help in how to process these feelings or what to do about them. Easier, then, to wall off those pesky emotions and push them aside. It’s part of why men stereotypically value sex over love; love makes us anxious and uncomfortable, but sex can be unemotional, physical intimacy without emotional connection – and thus, without stress.
It’s easier for us to objectify women – to see them as objects for our sexual pleasure rather than as people, and having to interact with them on an emotional level (and thus avoiding the stress of dealing with our emotions). We reduce women to numbers and arbitrary values (the infamous “1-10″ scale of rating women) because we can treat them like we’re trying to rack up the high-score in Galaga, insulating ourselves from those pesky feels. It becomes sex for sex’s sake, a way of finding validation because so much of old-fashioned masculine value is based around the number of people you can convince to have sex with you.
Because we spend so much time disconnected from our feelings, we don’t recognize our emotional needs for what they are, and we end up overcompensating in other ways. The resentment, anger and fear that so many MRAs direct at women is frequently a case of projection, externalizing one’s own pain and placing the blame on others rather than dealing with it oneself. Insistence that women only value “high” status or money or the nebulous value of “alpha male” is frequently a reflection of the feeling of a lack in one’s own life.
Others fall at the opposite end of the spectrum and become excessively needy; by not being able process their emotions in a healthy and productive way, they overcompensate and become TOO attached. Just as the hate-filled misogynist is trying to fill the hole in his life by blaming women for causing it, the needy guy is seeking validation and emotional fulfillment without being able to understand what it is he really needs or how to go about finding it.
Once again, there are very few examples of men who are in touch with their emotional needs to whom others can look for inspiration. Consider the way that romance is portrayed in television and movies. The only people who are seen as being willing to admit weakness or a desire for affection are… well, portrayed as kind of wussy or clownish. Joseph Gordon-Levitt can get goofy and twitterpated and anxious over Zoey Deschanel, but George Clooney never admits to feeling lonely or insecure or unsure of himself whether he’s around Jennifer Lopez or Julia Roberts or any of his other leading ladies. Real men, we are told, never admit to emotional vulnerability or to feeling anything other than 100% self-assured. Ted Mosby has to bumble his way towards the eponymous “mother”, but Jack Bauer just glides through his relationships without fear or doubt, a man’s man to the core.
And yet, even as men are taught that being in touch with one’s emotional needs is a weakness or “womanly”, being willing to own them and to embrace vulnerability is one of the greatest demonstrations of true inner confidence you can find.
We Feel Like We’re Being Cheated
If it sounds like I’m spending a lot of time complaining about the way masculinity is portrayed in pop culture… well, that’s where you’re right.
In this day and age, popular culture, especially movies and television, are some of the biggest influences on how young men understand what masculinity is supposed to be. Because men are socialized from an early age that we shouldn’t admit to not knowing how to approach women, what relationships are supposed to be like, or how to get better at dating, we are left to find our own teachers… and the media is often our source of information.
Movies and television teach us that we should all want the hottest woman1 , that being good at dating and sex is instinctive rather than a skill, and that the ability to navigate relationships is a matter of intuition rather than experiences built over time.
As a result, many of us have an outlandish and absurd idea of what it takes to find and maintain a relationship – that it’s meant to be simple and straightforward and having to struggle is a sign that there’s something wrong with you as a person. Then, as we’re floundering around, trying to make our way through the darkened maze that is interpersonal relationships, we see those for whom it all seems to come so effortlessly… and we get angry. We’re stumbling around like drunken fools and this person gets what we want with such ease that it’s almost offensive.
It becomes symbolic of the unfairness of it all: we feel as though we are somehow being denied access to the things that we’re supposed to have. That we aren’t given a fair chance at acquiring it, not when we have to fight for every inch of progress while that those others have what seems to us to be an unfair advantage. It’s part of what leads to the fatalistic belief that only men who have/are “X” get women, where “X” = some value of “Not Me”. This is how we try to explain to ourselves why we feel as though we have been conspired against, deliberately left out in the cold when others have everything we’re taught to want.
Of course, this is in no small part due to the fact that, once again, we aren’t allowed to show weakness to others. We see those hyper-successful men and make unwarranted assumptions about them, attributing their success to compositional fallacies and popular stereotypes rather than to the possibility that their success has come from effort and experience over the years. We are judging ourselves and finding ourselves wanting because our measuring stick is another person’s highlight reel that we compare to our own unedited footage. Interestingly, that anger and resentment is often directed against women, as though they have somehow rigged the game against us; they become the face of the unfairness of it all, rather than a culture that insists we should be hungry for steak while denying us the information about where to purchase one and how to prepare it once we have it.
Speaking of which:
We Don’t Realize How Much The Culture Hurts Us Too
I want to preface this by saying that this isn’t an attempt to win the Oppression Olympics. Reasonable people can agree that male privilege exists and that women are at a profound disadvantage in society. The problem is that all too often, men have a knee-jerk response to anything vaguely feminist – usually to the level of “nuh-uh!” or “Men have it worse, women are totally in control of everything.” and that feminism is bad and scary for guys.
Most guys haven’t processed what feminism is or what feminist goals actually are. Many buy into the myth that feminism is all about switching a patriarchal society for a matriarchal one, rather than acknowledging the truth that feminism is about equality and the eradication of ossified and malignant attitudes and beliefs about sex and gender. The problem is: most guys don’t recognize that we’re negatively affected by the culture as it currently stands as well. The old definition of “masculinity” is a restrictive, narrow one that punishes men for daring to step outside of it.
Many of the issues in this article stem from the issue of gender policing, the way that society enforces the dictates of masculine behavior. Men are heterosexual because being homosexual is to be taking the female role, giving up the dominant position of the penetrator and instead becoming the submissive role of the penetrated. Men are not allowed to show emotion, not supposed to pursue nurturing or caring roles, or other forms of “women’s work”.
In fact, many of the most common complaints that MRAs offer as “proof” that women have it better than men are cases where the patriarchal culture is hurting them as well. Why does child custody in divorce cases often default to the female parent? Because of the cultural expectations that men aren’t nurturers or care-givers. Why are men victims of physical violence? Because men are taught that aggression and violent behavior is part of being a man. Those so-called “hypergamous” women mostly exist in caste-based cultures where women aren’t allowed to have equal earning power to men. Men do all of the fighting and dying in wars because men don’t want women in the military at all, never mind active combat roles.
The current culture – whether you want to call it rape culture or the patriarchy – also affects men sexually. Why don’t women approach men more in dating contexts? Because so few men are comfortable with gender roles being reversed; when women make the first move, many men often either a) assume that she has far more interest than she actually does or b) flips out about her. The current cultural system actively discourages women from pursuing casual sex; not only does it deny that women’s sexual interest exists, it devalues women for active sexual expression. Women are castigated for wanting to control their reproduction when eliminating the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy is part of what spurred the Sexual Revolution of the 70′s.
Our current culture encourages a system of antagonistic sexual relations, where sex is a commodity and any woman who “sells” it too cheaply or too frequently is a lesser person. Because we live in a culture where rape is tacitly condoned – where a woman can be drunk to the point of unconsciousness, violated by several men on camera and then blamed for her own assault, to use several recent cases – women are far less likely to pursue sex for pleasure’s sake to the same degree that men do.
If more men were to stop and realize what our cultural system says about us, we would be insulted. To be a man means being a base creature who is at the mercy of his most animalistic instincts. Men, we are taught, are brutish, stupid and violent, are incapable of deeper intimacy or caring, and only want a very narrow range of physical or emotional characteristics in their partners; we can’t appreciate women who are large, older, muscular, aggressive, flat-chested, pear-shaped or more sexually experienced. To be a man in this view is not even to be human – we’re neanderthals at best.
We deserve better than this… but we haven’t fully begun to recognize that we’re holding ourselves back. It’s this misunderstanding and ignorance that ultimately underscore so much of male culture in this day and age. And once we begin to understand it, to work to change it…
…men can finally be so much more.
- and let’s be fair: the media is still very heteronormative; it’s only recently that they were willing to admit that gays and lesbians existed as actual characters instead of collections of stereotypes and tropes [↩]
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Photo: Flickr/Tobyotter
You’ll be hard pressed in the MRM community to find MRA’s who believe that men should be disconnected from their emotions,if you did a research into the topic you’d realize that male disposability causes men to disconnect themselves from their emotions.
Out of personal experience, I don’t actually know any men who -are- disconnected from their emotions. Most of us freely say and show how we feel. Most of the guys I know actually get angry at how disposable we are to women, rather than disconnecting from any emotions.
I very much hate that women are treated poorly from initiating at hook-up joints/bars/whatever. I’m a very shy, and non-confrontational kind of guy. I also want to -feel- desired. Being that I have to pursue the women means that I get shot down all the time. I don’t think many women actually realize how depressed this can make a guy. Women, imagine that no one would bug you for sex or relationships, or even talk to you at all. Would you feel very sexy or desired? No, you’d just go back home and grab a tub of Ben and Jerry… Read more »
It’s entirely possible that Ryan Gosling is sincere in his interest in academic feminism. I can’t rule that out. However, it seems a bit naïve to assume that a Hollywood actor would never put on an act about that as part of the careful cultivation of a public image. He has a perfect textbook definition of a niche appeal. I’d be surprised if his agent or manager had no influence over these public appearances. Perhaps the adoration he gets from women because of it has no bearing on his choices. I know if I were in his shoes that, plus… Read more »
Um…feminist Ryan Gosling is an internet meme. Mr. Gosling does no ACTUALLY appear at academic feminist conferences or take an active interest in such things (at least not for the sake of the meme that appears in this article) — this is one of those made up internet joke things.
I can’t say I get the objections to bro-hugging/chest-bumping either.
It may be different, but I personally feel they’re never lacking in affection. I pick that up just fine.
And I don’t need to do a non-bro-hug for that to come across.
God. The endless dog piling. Will it never end?
@Mark Goblowsky Greene..
“God. The endless dog piling. Will it never end?”
When it is finished!
Where does leading a woman along emotionally fit into this article about understanding men? What is that about? When the women is loving, supporting, appreciating, and being his biggest cheerleader yet he strings her along for years pretending to want the same just so he can get what he wants – what is that about? What kind of man is that? A lot can be said about the woman who will not date a man who is a bus driver, or chooses to measure men by the car he drives/his job/the money he makes, but what about the woman who… Read more »
The planted axiom is that if men don’t act like women are supposed to act–stereotyping women–they’re wrong.
Most accurate article I’ve read in eons…………. the “key” being………OWNING one’s own feelings……..powerful and liberating ! When the genders are “confident” enough inside themselves to know when to lead and when to follow no matter the gender………problem solved.
The article is titled “Understanding Men”, but it’s just another nerdlove blaming article with a list of complaints by “harris” about what men are doing wrong without ever asking women to understand and change their misconceptions.
“The handshake leading into the arm across the chest maintains a level of separation and the back-pounding reinforces that there has to be a level of play-violence as well, lest someone mistake this for a more romantic moment.”
Patting a friend on the back when I’m in a hugging embrace is “play violence”? You’re really stretching here.
O’Malley seems to want to counteract one set of invalid stereotypes with another set of invalid stereotypes.
I’m sorry I even clicked on this worthless article.
That’s his MO for every post, you seem to be surprised AD.
I agree with Harris O’Malley. Today in our calm life we don’t need masculinity. except of case to be attractive to girls. We don’t fight with each other. I don’t tell that it’s good I only want to tell that it’s not bad from time to time. Good material. Thanks a lot!
You would assume that a piece labelled “Understanding Men” would be something about maybe, you know, actually understanding them. Instead of the same old rattle about how we don’t need understanding, we just need to change ourselves…!
Also, I’m a bit curious about the “feminist Ryan Gosling” meme. What part has he himself played in the creation of the meme, and to what part is he actually living up to it himself? Or is it just another impossible standard that men is supposed to achieve in our “equal” society”?
You think maybe the Ryan Gosling meme has anything to do with his looks? No couldn’t be right?
I’m going to go see how popular the feminist Steve Buscemi, Jack Black, and John C Reilly meme sites are.
What’s that? There aren’t any? oh.
Ha!
Always love your comments, Jimbo.
I think you have a point.
According to some Joss Whedon is supposedly feminist but I didn’t see a similar wild fire of meme pics about how he is oh so feminist and mind you this is a guy that is not just acting but is writing, producing, and directing material that is feminist…..
Phall Guy, you hit it right on the head (literally)
I want to love, but what do I do with my penis?
” I want to love, but what do I do with my penis? ”
You can always use it to urinate 😉
There is a line where quantitative differences turn almost qualitative in nature. I take exception to your denial of the effects of ‘different plumbing’ between men and women in general. But thank you for reminding me to keep examining my own beliefs.
Too many people in the gender war world cannot understand the concepts of central tendency and probability distributions. They think that if they can point out 1 point where there is overlap the entire concept of men and women tending to be different is absolutely invalid and therefore any seeming difference is “socially constructed.” Just look at any article where people talk about how schools tend to favor girls over boys. You get one woman saying that because she acted like a stereotypical boy therefore the entire premise of central tendency is wrong. Makes ya want to pull your hair… Read more »
That is how you derail an argument though which is the ultimate purpose of people that disagree but don’t know how to attack something substantively. If Somebody wants to talk about similarities between snowstorms, people start talking about how each individual snowflake is different.
DOP wrote: “There is a line where quantitative differences turn almost qualitative in nature. I take exception to your denial of the effects of ‘different plumbing’ between men and women in general. ” Glad you saw this too. I work with men who have about 40 yrs. left to live…not long enough to affect any major change in societal norms. They truly want to understand how to meet a good woman and have a healthy, mutually satisfying, emotionally intimate and physically passionate life together. Some of them want to avoid making the same boneheaded mistakes they made the first time.… Read more »
Well this is the rap according to Harris, as near as I can figure, this is his meat & potatoes.
When you’re a carpenter every problem is a nail….
Me I don’t buy about 90% put forward in this article…
That being said I still respect the traction and readership Dr. NerdLove draws….
Me I gave up on what I was supposed to listen too in the early 70s and thought most of us had too…
“Because so few men are comfortable with gender roles being reversed; when women make the first move, many men often either a) assume that she has far more interest than she actually does or b) flips out about her.” Bull. Every woman I’ve ever asked who has said “men don’t like it when women approach men” has tried it roughly a half dozen times, gotten “no’s” and given up with the aforementioned line as an excuse. They don’t seem to realize that the average man will face *dozens* of no’s before he gets even a maybe. Because men don’t really… Read more »
DO men like being approached, in general? Honestly, I’ve wondered a lot about that. If a reasonably attractive (but not super hot or super sexy) woman walked up and asked you out, what would you think of her? Would you assume she was very aggressive or sluttly or desperate? Would you say yes with the hope of getting laid while thinking she was probably a weirdo? Those are the fesrs that have always stopped me from making the first move with men.
DO men like being approached, in general? That’s a hard one because the ones that don’t like it are usually the most vocal about while the ones that do like aren’t quite as vocal and the ones that don’t know (especially if they don’t know because its rarely or never happened) are usually silent. If a reasonably attractive (but not super hot or super sexy) woman walked up and asked you out, what would you think of her? It probably would be a mixture of wondering if she is for real (like is she joking, showing off, or lost a… Read more »
” If a reasonably attractive (but not super hot or super sexy) woman walked up and asked you out, what would you think of her? Would you assume she was very aggressive or sluttly or desperate? Would you say yes with the hope of getting laid while thinking she was probably a weirdo? Would you say yes with the hope of getting laid while thinking she was probably a weirdo?” In this scenario, does the man know the woman before? Maybe they are friends, acquaintances in work, or just strangers? Because it will be very different outcome if we consider… Read more »
@Sarah Radford: DO men like being approached, in general? Pretty much agree with Danny on this one. Personally, I don’t (or wouldn’t) mind, and I can’t really see a good reason why anyone should NOT like it. maybe the overly confident or “picky” ones that are used to get what they are after anyway… But as Danny says, it’s probably the ones that are the most vocal about it, too. Honestly, I’ve wondered a lot about that. If a reasonably attractive (but not super hot or super sexy) woman walked up and asked you out, what would you think of… Read more »
The best strategy is probably the semi approach of getting close and sending feminine flirty signals that are significantly more obvious than you think is required and or creating conversation openers by doing stuff like dropping something he can pick up for you or slightly bumping into him or asking him a question about something and then sending flirty signals. Your flirting ques need to be more obvious than you think they should be because must men don`t register what women think are good enough signals (although some do) and even when they do they feel much more at ease… Read more »
I certainly wouldn’t mind women approaching men, even if they’re only semi-attractive on average. At some point, one I might like would approach me. It would certainly give many guys a lot more options than they have now.
However, even if women didn’t approach, it wouldn’t be so bad if they were better at flirting and signaling their interest. And no, lousy, subtle signals like crossing their legs a certain way or playing with their hair doesn’t count.
Women just don’t seem to take any initiative in the dating scene.
(a few Julie or Joanna exceptions notwithstanding)
I’ve been thinking about this and I realized that I don’t know if I’m attracted to a guy until I’ve interacted with him. I mean, I can appreciate a good looking guy but it’s only an aesthetic appreciation until I’ve gotten to know him. So, if I approach a guy, say at the bookstore or a coffee shop, I may decide within a few minutes of talking to him that I actually have no interest. Which seems kind of mean for the poor guy — I’ve approached him, shown I’m interested and then, boom, lost interest based on our interaction.… Read more »
Sarah, I’m afraid this is going to get into all kinds of derailing, but I really like something you said here and I don’t want to lose it. It was this part: “Anyway, I actually care about other people’s feelings so I’m hesitant to pursue a guy if I’m not sure yet whether I’d actually be interested.” Believe it or not, many men feel the exact same way. The only problem is that this seems to be where a lot of “Nice Guys TM” stuff comes from. You don’t know if you actually want to date a girl, so you… Read more »
” The only analogy I can think of for a guy is, say, you approach a woman because the light is bad and you think she’s attractive. Then you meet her later for a date and realize she’s totally unattractive.” lol, NO. So you think men can only attracted to women because of their looks? And men never feel the same as you? Wow, no wonder you don’t wanna approached us. First, you assumed every men would immediately think about getting laid when a woman approach them. Second, you assumed every man only care about looks when it come to… Read more »
Sarah, some men will hate it, some men won’t. Some men haven’t ever even thought about it because the idea of a woman approaching *them* has never crossed their minds.
Frankly, that’s really besides the point.
Every time a man asks a woman out, he runs the risk of looking desperate, or creepy, or “just out to get laid.” or humiliated, or having a drink thrown in his face.
“Would you assume she was very aggressive or sluttly or desperate? Would you say yes with the hope of getting laid while thinking she was probably a weirdo? Those are the fesrs that have always stopped me from making the first move with men.” Well what would you think if the situation were reversed? The first thing you would think is why is this person approaching me? Are they geniune or playing some sort of a game? You would want sometime to talk to the person and feel more comfortable. Its not any different if a woman approaches a man.… Read more »
@Sarah Radford in re do men like being approached…
Well maybe not Priests and other celibates…
“Movies and television teach us that we should all want the hottest woman1 , that being good at dating and sex is instinctive rather than a skill”
I dont know any men thinking like that. I think many men believe that to be good at dating its all about skill. That’s why many men use the term ” game” . That’s why many men learn thousands pick up line. That’s why there are PUA ( Pick Up Artists ). Because we believe its all about “skill” , not our quality.
“Movies and television teach us that we should all want the hottest woman” no,your dick tells you that. Now go cruise the net and get your head around just how long the hot yardstick is…
movies and TV tell me it’s cool to sculpt my beard, gauge my ears, get tats and calf implants- but I sure haven’t…..
Most guys haven’t processed what feminism is or what feminist goals actually are. Here it is again. When trying to argue that feminism is a positive movement, feminists point out that feminism is about equality, progress, and is overall wonderful. And yet when presented with feminists who are openly misandric, petulant, or extreme (such as those University of Toronto feminists who pulled the fire alarm), we’re told that “they don’t represent most feminists,” or that you can’t judge feminism by its bad apples. It seems that feminism is either a monolith of a phantom, depending on how self-identified feminists want… Read more »
*or* a phantom.
Okay I feel your anger on this. Time and time again there are feminists that do employ these tactics (or the “The only reason you disagree is because you don’t understand us” argument basically meaning there is no such thing as a valid criticism of feminism from outsiders). But to the devil with them this is about us. They are obviously never going to cop to the roles that they play and keep playing innocent. Seriously to the devil with them. We know that men have a hard time understanding themselves and that women have a hard time understanding men… Read more »
We’re gonna have to tell our own stories and try to find understanding on our own.
Amen to that, and we certainly don’t need condescending, male shaming feminists like NL to help us reach this understanding.
One thing that’s been on my mind lately is where does that anger really come from. In fact I have a small post up thinking about that.
http://dannyscorneroftheuniverse.blogspot.ca/2013/04/seeking-source.html
If feminist aren’t willing to police their own, call them out and expel them from the movement on their own accord, then they consent to that behavior and own it.
” Okay I feel your anger on this. Time and time again there are feminists that do employ these tactics (or the “The only reason you disagree is because you don’t understand us” argument basically meaning there is no such thing as a valid criticism of feminism from outsiders). ” Imo the critics have a much better understanding of the topic than most affiliated. Maybe even some feminist’s deep inside agree with the criticism but dont know how to process it or how to forward it in the real life. Anyhow but claiming that feminism is the top of the… Read more »
The problem is that all too often, men have a knee-jerk response to anything vaguely feminist
Gee, I wonder why that is…
“we” again.
Anything empirical?
“Even now, men can’t express affection for their male friends without suitable ironic detachment from being “bros”. ” Where is this? I’m about as hairy assed hetero/cis a man as you are liable to meet and I’ve kissed 3 or 4 hairy assed hetero men this week… Oh make that 5 or 6, I forgot the wake where I saw people I hadn’t seen in 30 years. This morning when a protege, (former all state football & wrestling, bad boy and bookie) called to report the birth of his son I had no hesitation telling him I love him and… Read more »
Drew, I think you’re speaking for yourself here.
Maybe you’re in a different subculture. I don’t know a lot of guys who have that type of relationship with other men.
The subculture of guys who own and use tools, play and watch sports, work construction, hunt, fish and shoot, dig cars, trucks and engines, tell and snigger at dirty jokes, ogle a pretty bottom and scratch themselves is a pretty exotic culture?????
Really????
Maybe you’re hanging with the wrong kind of men- cause I gotta tell you, my people don’t have a lot of problem pissing and moaning, a little, before buckling up and getting back on it.
Nothing personal against Harris- chiropractors think the whole world have bad backs.
Maybe Drew is smashing a stereotype ™.
That’s okay, isn’t it?
Ditto, “bro”. My little mountain subculture has plenty of manly “I love you’s” and hugs. We also know when not the whine and just git ‘r done.
2 yesterday & 1 today– & no, not on the lips
Drew, I think you’re speaking for yourself here.
Maybe you’re in a different subculture. I don’t know a lot of guys who have that type of relationship with other men.
Coming from the woman who asks men out on dates and who thinks asking for permission to kiss is sexy, I find that interesting. I guess it takes an anomaly to know an anomaly.
Frankly Joanna, I think you’re wrong there; and I think Harris got it wrong too. I think the ‘anomaly’ is the ‘norm’ – it’s just that our reductionist society hates having to deal with nuance and complexity. We like short, quick, simple metaphors, universalistic parables & collectivist generalities. It’s harder to pigeonhole a paradox. I might have said this before, but I still believe that the measure of a stereotype’s breadth is not necessarily the same as the measure of its depth. Stereotypes are, by their very nature, superficial – they are not always inaccurate; but nor are they… Read more »
Great!
I hope the angry men on GMP responds to this.
The hostility I have seen agains women from some men here has shocked me,
I look forward to reading their comments.
Good article .
Iben, I suspect that a lot of the anger men have comes from something that Harris didn’t bring up at all: the role of women in enforcing traditional masculinity. Speaking from personal experience, the most intense gender policing I have ever faced has actually come from ex-girlfriends. This includes everything from vicious ridicule when I shared emotions to one instance of out-right sexual assault because “men are supposed to ALWAYS want it.” As a man in today’s society I feel hopelessly trapped because the women in my life are divided between feminists who will hate me if I act a… Read more »
Men aren’t sexually assaulted by women. That crotch grab in the club, by some drunk girl, while you are just standing there with your beer talking to your buddy, you consented to that by being near a drunk girl.
As for what to do, stop worrying about what women think and own your life. If you aren’t doing something illegal, and they can’t deal with it, that speaks to their inadequacies not yours.
” Men aren’t sexually assaulted by women ”
Are you really so sure about that? or are you simply falling into the trap of outdated gender narratives (superstition)?
I was actually trying to play that sarcastically, having been the victim of having my genitals groped a few times back in my college/club days by drunk women whom I clearly never consented to even if the definition of consent were flirting with them. But I should “enjoy that” and it should “boost my ego”.
I particularly liked the anger/violent reaction, and reference to my sexual orientation when I politely ask them to refrain from touching me until they at least know my name.
oh ok I misunderstood. I agree on what you say, personally I think everybody or almost have been touched in a inappropriate manner by members of the other sex.
cheers.
the role of women in enforcing traditional masculinity. mike l, i could write a long post in agreement, i’ll simply say i agree. the atlantic had an interesting piece about hetero/bi men and their reluctance to share too much vulnerability, too much of their fears with their woman partner – that mask, that armour … But for men, the overarching message is that any weakness is shameful. And since vulnerability is often perceived as weakness, it is especially risky for men to practice vulnerability. What Brown also discovered in the course of her research is that, contrary to her early… Read more »
I hear what you are saying but I don’t think most men would be turned on if their girlfriend wanted to dress like a lumberjack. Not a “sexy lumberjack” but a really masculine lumberjack! Similarly, if my BF wantec to cross dress, best I could promise would be to be tolerant. It would not turn me on to take a masculine role in our sex life and let him pretend to be a girl. I’d be like, “hey, I’m the girl!”
Sarah, I notice for you example you seemed to choose the most masculine thing you could possibly think of (a lumberjack), but that ignores the larger point that was being made. That point is that women wear clothes that were once thought of as traditionally masculine all the time. Jeans, button down shirts, even female dress suits have become increasingly “masculine” looking. Society has accepted all of this, but men don’t have nearly as much leeway when it comes to the way they dress. Picking out something as extreme as a lumberjack and saying men might not like it if… Read more »
of course, mike, jack this is not about clothing as such. this is not about me being able to wear a tiara and a tutu if i wanted – i could but i dont think so. women’s clothes are to me emblematic of this real real dislike of femininity in their men, that women hold. which is interesting when i consider how women looked 100yrs ago, and how they can now look. thats why i talk about xdressing. we know the ‘plausible reasons’ for rejecting those men who assume a ‘femme role’. so far, no ‘plausible reason’ for rejecting xdressing… Read more »
I hear what you are saying but I don’t think most men would be turned on if their girlfriend wanted to dress like a lumberjack. Not a “sexy lumberjack” but a really masculine lumberjack! that is what i said, modern western woman is a lumberjack. sarah i remember the first time you posted this. i didnt reply as i was interested in seeing the men’s response – however they were silent. i wanted to see if they would point out that your argument would be valid, if you still looked and acted pretty much like victorian women, like men still… Read more »
“woman’s body and face can look like over the past 100yrs. i actually believe that men who have an attraction to women would even accept a full zztop beard and a 10inch clitcumpenis, as long as the vulva and vagina was kept. i really do.” Well I strongly disagree with that. Last I checked, most heterosexual men prefer women with feminine features, curves and a lot of them won’t even tolerate pubic hair anymore. You are mostly pointing out changes in fashion. True, women can wear a broader range of clothing because society has expanded the definition of what is… Read more »
sarah, your bf would already know your feelings and would never wearing women’s clothing even if he wanted. do you remember your post about him asking to assume the ‘female role’ in the bedroom, i cant remember the specifics. i do remember your reaction in that post, your bf wont have missed it either. has he asked you to do whatever it was again? women can relax, most men are not going anywhere near women’s clothing, they are not stupid. not even near the groin length nonathletic shorts which 20/25yrs ago were masc clothing in my youth, and are now… Read more »
Yes I recall that post but don’t remember the responses now.
It’s a difficult issue because I really enjoy being a woman and I want to be a woman during sex. I don’t want to pretend to be a man or to be in a masculine role sexually. I have a lot of trouble with that. I don’t like the feelings I get from that sort of role playing. 🙁
*”As a man in today’s society I feel hopelessly trapped because the women in my life are divided between feminists who will hate me if I act a certain way, and traditionalists who will hate me if I act differently. “* And what happens to the man who has chosen his OWN preference for what masculinity means to him and ACTS upon that every day without apology and without needing approval? What if this man happily shares his gifts with anyone who chooses to accept them on HIS terms and doesn’t care in the least about what either half have… Read more »
So are you looking for conversation with angry men or are you just looking for some anger so that you can point to it and ring a bell?
” hope the angry men on GMP responds to this.
The hostility I have seen agains women from some men here has shocked me, ”
Maybe these guys have a reason to be angry? Instead trying to flame a fight, would n it be smarter to listen to the reason behind the anger of the angry guys on GMP?
I’ll respond: Just another on of Dr Nerdlove’s typical articles. Not much point in reading, they all say the same thing.
Casually dismissing someone else’s efforts to create conversation, like you do here, Pete, is nothing short of disgusting.
It isn’t an attempt at conversation.
MRA bad, feminism good.
Next verse, same as the first.