Terri Trespicio’s personal memoir of how she accidentally conflated being strong with being single.
Feminism has done a lot of good–for you, me, all the women you know, and all the women you’ll never meet–as far as social issues, birth control, employment, and your right to do anything and be a woman at the same time. I’m all about girl power, and go women. Yes.
But there’s one area where feminism has not served me well. And that is dating. Why? Because, having been raised in the 80s, I came of age with the strong impression that men were basically up to no good. In the movies, TV shows, general cultural messages, men were by and large aggressive, incorrigible boors. They could hurt you. At the very least, they might get in your way. The good news was you probably didn’t need them.
Men Not Required
This was easy for me to believe because I went to an all-girls’ private and progressive catholic high school. Training grounds for the “men not required” mentality. I wore a uniform, no makeup, and had not an ounce of concern for boys, as they were not on my radar, and not deemed central to my life in any real way. Sure, we talked about them, but they were more like attractions than people I had relationships with. Beings I’d ogle and wonder at from the stands of a high school football game or at a dance. They were infrequent visitors in my life and I was in a tourist in theirs.
I’d heard about how girls were cowed by the boys in public schools. Girls who didn’t get a shot at leadership, or acted dumb. I felt bad for them. I was certainly better off. For instance, we never mooned about waiting for someone to ask us to a school dance because when our school hosted one, it was on us to do the inviting. Every day was Sadie Hawkins day. We were running the place. And we would run the world.
As students of Oak Knoll High School, we were weren’t just students. We were “women of promise.” We were the promise of a better future. I took this as a promise not to let anything, or anyone, get in my way.
During our senior year, we were shown some horrible video about how to avoid being the unfortunate drunk girl who gets date raped at a frat party. Stay sober, stay smart, and if someone goes to rape you, run for ze hills, screaming your head off.
That was my prep for dealing with men.
I got the impression that I could, should, and would run circles around guys. I’d be smarter, stronger, and savvier. And I was sure as shit not going to let any of them hurt me. Probably a good idea not to let any even get near me.
I’m Embarrassed This Happened
And guess what? I succeeded. I sneered at, and even humiliated men as a teenager, and if a guy liked me, I fairly resented him for it. At 14, I had what might be considered my first boyfriend. I’d met him at a spelling bee (not kidding). After two daytime dates held within earshot of parental supervision, I invited him to a dance at the boys’ school.
That night, I had a change of heart. I realized that if he showed up, he was officially my problem and I would in some ways be responsible for him. I panicked. As I saw him lean cautiously through the auditorium door in the flickering disco light (skinny kid, blond crew cut, windbreaker), I felt my heart ball up in a fist, and thought, No, no this was a mistake.
Except, instead of greeting him and talking to him and being civil, I decided to ignore him. I returned to the safety of my friends and we watched him amble from one poorly lit corner of the room to the other, looking for me. I passed him once, and waved hi–and kept walking. I felt bad, but the way I see it now, not bad enough.
I left this boy stranded and friendless, at a school dance where he knew no one but me. I am not proud of this. It remains one of the cruelest things I’ve ever done. I went home that night and said nothing–until the phone rang at 11:30 (which in the days of one-family land lines, was a big deal), and it was him. He was shocked and furious–as he should be. I had nothing to say–I shut down. I had no defense. When my mother got wind of what happened, she scolded me, pleaded–”What is wrong with you? How could you do that?” And I had no answer. I felt tough, and cold.
Then the letters started–scrawled black ink on both sides of thin looseleaf, declarations of love and war, promises to kill himself (“And if you don’t hear about it, I either didn’t do it, or nobody noticed.”) I balled them up and threw them in the back of a drawer. I ignored and ignored, until he went away. I resented his neediness, his melodrama. I liked him a whole lot better when I didn’t know if I could have him, but once I did, I was done.
(I’ve since Google-stalked him and was happy to find that he was working as a computer technician in San Jose. I’m sure he never thinks of it–at least I hope he doesn’t.)
I can’t blame feminism for my piss-poor behavior of course, which I chalk up to fear, insecurity, and anything else that rules the mind and emotions of a 14-year-old girl. But it was reinforced by the notion that men were something to be dealt with, but not at all necessary or required.
I’m Not Proud of This, Either
But it was a bit of a pattern, it turns out. During my first year of high school, my best friend introduced me to her cousin–a sweet strawberry blonde track star from the boys’ school. I knew he liked me, and so of course I was suspicious and guarded. What did he WANT? I enjoyed the attention in an eye-rolling way, and was amused and compelled in ways I didn’t know how to handle except to keep some distance. The night my friend and I double-dated with him and his friend to a Seton Hall hockey game, I walked ahead of him and only hesitantly accepted his varsity track jacket to keep me warm, quickly returning it afterwards.
…And Why This Became a Problem
Flash forward to adulthood and you can imagine how this might set me up with a bit of a handicap. Little did I know the inability to accept anything from a man–attention, love, a jacket–would become a bigger problem. I guarded my virginity jealously, well into college, up until the bitter end, in fact. I believed to share “it”–sex, intimacy–was to give it away to someone who likely didn’t deserve it.
I’ve come a long, long way since the ensuing years of tense serial monogamy in my 20s, and have far to go. So while everyone was up in arms over Suzanne Venker’s article on foxnews.com (in which she says, essentially, that feminists are to blame for the lack of marriageable men), I acknowledged the nerve she struck in me. Because she’s right–I have been angry and defensive for a big chunk of my life, and I’m not even sure why.
Anything But Needy
I’ve worked so hard to be independent, thinking that, as the anti-chick, I would need nothing and no one–and that men would somehow love this. The very last thing on earth I ever wanted to be was a needy, awful girl. I figured if I needed nothing, I’d win. I just didn’t realize the cost of winning.
I certainly don’t regret how feminism has served me: I’ve learned to be aggressive, tough, resilient, and have had many successes in my life as a result. I never have let a man get in my way–are you kidding? No one ever stood a chance. But now I’m trying to unlearn some of that–to learn what it means to soften, not weaken, and to expand, not constrict. To have power without the shiny, hard outer shell. This is incredibly fucking hard.
The notion that some post-fem fallout is to blame, well, that makes sense to me. I swung really hard in one direction and am gradually finding my way back to a more balanced state. My understanding of feminism has evolved, too–in that you don’t have to hate men or beat them in order to be a powerful woman.
Make no mistake–I wouldn’t undo feminism. And I have no regrets about the choices I’ve made in my life (except, of course, for the school dance episode, and a few others to be sure). But I’m well aware that my tendency to fight and compete and fear losing to men has made it incredibly hard for me to love the way I know I could. Even though marriage has never been a goal for me, how silly to think that you can–or should–get through life without loving, as often and as intensely as you can.
Of course, love requires all the things that scare me most: vulnerability, need, want, rejection. It’s hard for me to turn down a challenge–but I’m facing an entirely new one now. Because the softening and revealing and opening up that love requires is the very thing I’ve been steeling myself against. And I’m discovering that to win at not wanting, and not having, may not be a game worth winning, in the end.
This article originally appeared at territrespicio.com.
Photo—sara biljana/Flickr
Do us a favour…turn gay…enuff whack-job females out there already.
No sorry, this doesn’t convince me one bit that it will screw up a love life. If a man is so threatened by a woman being a feminist then he’s not worth it
I think she was actually saying that it was about how feminism made her view herself…. not about men being threatened by her being a feminist…just saying
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2245681/Its-taboo-admit-I-wish-unborn-baby-wasnt-beastly-boy.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
I give this woman kudos for airing her laundry in front of the world. I give her no respect. I find her attitude just awful.
The article made me think of this essay:
http://www.menweb.org/femexpos.htm
Feminism didn’t just screw womens’ love lives it screwed up their lives by shifting the earning burden on to them. Case in point see this http://boards.askmen.com/showthread.php?57450-Secret-lives-of-breadwinner-wives
Another example of this is well articulated in today’s Washington Post on the 50th anniversary of Betty Friedan’s “The Feminine Mystique:” is the following article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/kathleen-parker-the-feminine-mystique-at-50/2013/02/12/0169524c-7552-11e2-95e4-6148e45d7adb_story.html
Half a loaf is better than none. I have been waiting for an avowed feminist to admit feminism’s failings for some time and while this article does not go far enough, I suppose I should be thankful that it acknowledges a major failing in that feminism has utterly failed to deal with initmate relationships between the genders. I have always viewed “The Feminine Mystique” as The Feminist Manifesto and this article attacks a core principle of that work that women should focus more on their careers than finding suitable man to marry. I looked at Ms. Trespicio’s website and it… Read more »
Great article, Terri.
I think many women in your age cohort are realizing how much feminism has screwed up their love lives. This is especially true in progressive cities with large gender imbalances: NYC, DC, and SF come to mind. Marriage rates in those towns are low, and fertility rates are abysmal.
I’ve got absolutely no problem with all of what you’re saying. As with so many ideas, often when you first pick them up you go a bit nuts with them. University students who are introduced to existentialism, for example, often go a bit mad with “NOTHING MATTERS AHHHH!” So yeah, I get that. I am not a fan of the title, though, as it plays into the idea that somehow feminism itself is antithesis to romantic relationships…as though feminism makes a woman unattractive. If that is indeed the case, I think that says more about the negative ways in which… Read more »
You don’t ever get articles written by men saying the opposite (or at least not outside of niche feminist websites). Something along the lines of, “Oh I thought I didn’t need feminism because I am a man, and I could get chicks without it. But turns out I’m too aggressive/patriarchal/etc., and not soft/nurturing enough, so I’m needing to unlearn that to be more attractive to women.”
Are you by chance saying that there should be articles like that?
HeatherN, umm ever ready anything by Hugo Schwyzer, Dr Nerdlove, etc? They have talked about male privilege, how men act etc and it’s relation to attractiveness. I’ve seen articles by men telling men to be more feminist to be more attractive. “And that’s not a critique of your own personal story, Terri…that’s just me noticing the one-sided nature of this sort of discussion.” Probably because there are many women that want patriarchal men still. Thing is this article was more about how some feminism can be pushed on women and cause harm to their success in dating. Eg, the recent… Read more »
You don’t ever get articles written by men saying the opposite (or at least not outside of niche feminist websites). Something along the lines of, “Oh I thought I didn’t need feminism because I am a man, and I could get chicks without it. But turns out I’m too aggressive/patriarchal/etc., and not soft/nurturing enough, so I’m needing to unlearn that to be more attractive to women.” Funny thing is, Heather, that I hear just the opposite from women in the city I live in: Men here are too passive and sensitive, they need to learn to be more aggressive to… Read more »
This was me a year ago. I was recovering from an abusive relationship and was absolutely convinced that I could not accept anything from any man because he would use it against me later like my ex was prone to do. It took about a year of being with a trustworthy guy to get that out of me.
wow this is something new to me. as a female in her mid 30s i can say the opposite – that women are the ‘foreign territory’ for me. its only men who have always been there for me in my life. only men. they were the ones who stood by me, supported me, stuck up for me, respected me and were always there for me when i needed someone to talk to, a shoulder to cry on or someone to confide in. not women. ever. women have only been two faced, resentful, bullies for the most part (99.99%) – nasty,… Read more »
I don’t think it’s just feminism that has imparted in women’s minds to need to not be needy. The taboo against being desperate and (too) vulnerable is all over the dating and romance world. And so it’s socially de rigueur to affect an attitude of nonchalance in the early stages of dating, only being allowed to unleash passion or intensity once the other person has decided they know us well enough. Depending on our partners’ preference and comfort level, “early stage” could last indefinitely. For people who identify as passionate and intense and/or love those parts of themselves, this is… Read more »
there is a covert social system of oppression where one is humiliated/shamed for feeling ’emotion’. a disvalue of the trait which is traditionally seen as ‘feminine’. until and unless this value can be respected universally, and instead of shunned be an attribute to aspire to, the oppression (and victimisation) will continue. so called ‘rights to privacy/non contact’ are seen as can do no wrong, and is commonly used as a tool to abuse without accountability, while the rights of ‘recipiency’ are not even addressed.
Women where not shamed for exhibiting emotion at all before the advent of feminism. TO the extent women are shamed for it today it is because of feminisms atempt to make women as masculine as possible.
Feminism is actually dangerous to a womans sexuality because she has been taught that she is a victim of men. To be penetrated is to be vulnerable so you must be able to give trust but you cannot give trust to a member of the group (men) that has “victimized” you.. The problem with labelling any group as victims is you than take their power which as a group was done to blacks and women. Make a person believe they are a victim and you break their spirit and steal their confidence. Women have sexualized themselves to stop men from… Read more »
Read a book before spewing ignorance.
I thought Erik’s comment was very well thought out & showed he has read something to form his opinions. It was thought provoking & something I find worth contemplating on. I
It could likewise be said to you to start thinking for yourself and stop accepting what you find in books as the gospel truth and only way to view things. Much of feminist writing is little more than opinion and theory.
I like the comment and emphatically agree on many points 🙂
“Women have been taught to hate their sexuality as vulnerability so now use their vaginas as penises so they have more power than their oppressors.” Using… vaginas.. as penises… what the hell… is that? lol! “To be penetrated is to be vulnerable so you must be able to give trust but you cannot give trust to a member of the group (men) that has “victimized” you.” WHAT THE HEELLLL AMERIKA! Just so you know, women are not penetrated, only their vaginas are – if they want to, because that is not a necessary part of sex. But then again, vaginas… Read more »
And just so I’m living up to my own request – a highly-visible and *specific* example of a feminist giving an internal critique of the movement is bell hooks. She “called” the movement on its racism over thirty years ago.
Thank-you, I also know of Christina Hoff Summers, are there any more recently? Any major sites like feministe, feministing, jezebel, etc?
Archy – Usually internal critiques are launched by the fringe toward the mainstream, not the other way around (that would be so distracting and time consuming to address every tiny group at the edges of a movement). Many feminist-overview-type works include the main internal critiques of the movement (dissecting radical feminism too) – like Rosemarie Putnam Tong’s work (the fourth edition of her book comes out this spring). Much third-wave rhetoric includes criticism of second-wave feminism (and it’s anti-male mistakes). Third-wavers like Rebecca Walker and Jennifer Baumgardner are putting out great stuff these days. Katha Pollitt (now at The Nation)… Read more »
Thank you for this, Kari.
Thanks for providing some examples we can look into. In the interim, do any of these criticisms of previous iterations of feminism include self reflection of the current to ensure those “anti-male mistakes” aren’t just being perpetuated?
As to who’s doing the criticism… can you please clarify on what you view as the “mainstream” and what’s the “fringe”? As many view the mainstream as those opposed to equality for men .
bell hooks criticied through having an eye to making feminism better. Her criticism is not another way of saying “feminism is bad and needs to be scrapped” like Hoff Sommers’ is.
Can we PLEASE stop using so many generalizations. Saying “feminists are this” isn’t any better than saying “men are that.” Every label is going to be as diverse as the individuals who use it. Looking for “real feminists” or “good feminists” is the same as saying “where are all the real men?” or the “good men?” which if you have read anything on this site you know is a fractious question. If you are going to argue that “feminists say this” or “feminists do that,” PLEASE have the decency to find a specific example, like the comments about Jezebel and… Read more »
Wow, thanks so much, Kari. I don’t really have time to be writing comments on here because I’m on a deadline but if I had’ve I would’ve (tried) to say exactly that. Spot on.
You can’t claim that feminists don’t disavow ‘bad feminists’ without giving specific examples of the ‘bad’ feminist doctrine to which you refer. Otherwise you’re guilty of the same kind of fuzzy thinking of which you accuse others.
I’ve given examples, others have given them. Radfemhub, agent orange files, etc. Find me a mainstream feminist article that tears radfemhub apart for their bigotry and not just a single person in a comment. What I find interesting is SO MANY feminist websites do exactly that, generalize negatively about the MRM/MRA’s calling them hateful, dangerous, etc. Should I ignore those feminists too? The silence of many feminists about their extremists allows those extremists to keep working with the name, but worse it means those who come into contact with them will see negative behaviour yet it seems quite often many… Read more »
Feminists should be asking themselves why so many anti-feminists exist… A lot of anti-feminists exist because they made the calculation– like the author did, though she’s not an anti-feminist– that feminism would hamper their romantic lives. Or their capacity to be good parents. I can easily see, for instance, a feminist woman whose love of her life just happens to be a Southern Baptist or a member of Focus on the Family (these things happen) making the pragmatic-in-her-mind decision that her marriage, love life and happy family demand that she make herself similar in some way to her husband/lover. Therefore,… Read more »
Again, I ask where all these radical MRM(A) sites are …. Can someone please post them so I can look for myself? We’ve identified a couple of radical feminist sites but where are all these, all so powerful, men’s sites?
Try going to manboobz.com and looking at the “Boob Roll” on the right,
Even one needs to actually look at the sites themselves and make their own decision because the Manboobz crowd has a chronic case of If-its-MRA-then-it-be-bad-itis.
you could find bad feminist anywhere, especially in popular media. Jezebel for example.
It’s always amusing how the same movement that gave us patriarchy theory, “the personal is political,” the oppressor/oppressed worldview, “systemic prejudice”, etc. etc., suddenly demands to be treated as individuals when the shoe is on the other foot.
Sometimes when I come across extremist sites I wonder if they’re pulling my leg. Maybe I’m too naïve or too cynical, but sometimes I suspect such things are caricatures created by people who want to discredit whatever the larger group is. If someone wanted to discredit feminism or show that there are feminists who have gone off the rails, these sites would be the perfect anti-feminist propaganda. It’s the anti-feminist Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Or, maybe more playfully, these sites are like the “Yes-Men” stunts, pushing the envelope to see how far people will buy into it. As… Read more »
This was meant to be in response to one of Archy’s messages.
“As someone writing under a pseudonym, I am always conscious of the fact that you can’t really know who’s writing in to a blog. How does the Jezebel site really know that a commenter is a woman, much less a feminist? How do we even know that the editors didn’t write all the comments themselves?” I stumbled in the same pattern of thinking as you, lots of time. Perhaps all the time, naaah its just a joke, naah they cant be serious. But then the question arises in me: where the real feminist? are they always joking? is feminism a… Read more »
I’ve wondered how much of both the extremist feminist AND mra sites were simply trolling. I find both movements pretty depressing atm, I wish they’d just team up already and end the bullshit but it seems very little trust exists between them….
As the fiasco over the #ineedmasculismbecause tag today on twitter has shown there are a lot of problematic elements on BOTH sides of this.
Reading the jezebel and the original thread now. What an epic clusterfuck. Bigotry like crazy, generalizations of what each movement is, how is it helpful? Call out the misogynists n misandrists but people should celebrate those truly interested in equality. The MRA’s and Feminists need to call out the extremists, kick em out, do whatever, they need each other to truly fight inequality n sexism. A circumcised guy said circumcision isn’t that bad…..You’re missing the point, the point is that as an adult you should be able to choose but as a child you should be left intact. Go tell… Read more »
I avoid feminist sites as well as MRA sites because I’m with you, most of it is incredibly depressing. A bunch of angry people bitching about the world in an echo chamber of negativity.
Who was saying women should stop reading women’s magazines? Y’all really need to stop ingesting the poison of hate-sites too. As Dr. King said, “Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that.” Find the love, people! 🙂
Thing is, where are the non-hate sites? Most major sites linked about the SPLC calling men’s rights a hate movement, an act which generalized about MRA’s. If I did the same towards feminism I could call feminist a hate movement based off the radfemhub site. But that’d be stupid…yet some of the major sites use nothing but bigotry to talk about mra’s, makes me wonder if one should consider them as a hate site. Which sites are hate-free?
Trolling or doing recon? Checking out various sites allows people to see what’s going on and when the opportunity presents itself, why not comment? Where as I see many people be okay with a variety of feminists sites/groups, I see little consideration given toward MRA’s/MRM’s. I still ask, as I have many times, please provide me a list of these MRA(M)’s? They’re talked about as though they are this overwhelming force.
Oh my god. Your school, ‘leading’ private Catholic girl’s school. That was my school too, years on and I am still hopeless with men. Boys were never on my radar until weirdly at the late blooming stage of 18 when they suddenly were…and I did not have a clue. I used (still almost do and I’m 22) see men as a different species. I don’t know if it is just feminism but more the emotional stunting of never growing up in a normal unisex environment. It’s true men are demonized in all girl schools and these days even the few… Read more »
“I just don’t understand men..because one never sat next to me in maths class I guess.”
When they get hardon’s, they rape everything in sight! (sarcasm)
Not all men are the same, but just talk to men and ask about their lives. Read this site and you’ll find out quite a bit, I am pretty open about my fears, insecurities, and stuff that affects me in life.
“It’s true men are demonized in all girl schools and these days even the few male teachers there are in these schools walk on eggshells.”
To me it seems that these schools reinforces gender stereotypes, didnt you had gender courses? or they were also faulty? I wonder what happens in boy schools, anybody went there?
What year was she in this private school? I could see this in the 60’s maybe
Nope no gender courses, I’m not sure I know what that it either? A tiny mention of the beauty of the union of marriage in religion class every now and then. Also occasional, patchy, awkward of the teachers part, sex education in heath in PE in the final years where they just told us all forms of contraception were bad and we should monitor our ‘natural’ cycle to try predict, coz all else is ‘damaging’ and not the way God intended us to use our bodies….marriage. We had a lecture from a lady from a religious centre with a powerpoint… Read more »
Mr Super”typo” .. sorry about that … my typo. Also want to say that it is sad that Catholic schools have fallen into the secular feminism.
Mr Superhero …. Demonizing men is what they do in many women’s study programs as well. Higher education simply mask it better.
Thank you for sharing, Stacey.
I’m a man about twice your age, and like you, I’ve mostly been fascinated by the opposite sex.
But constantly being ignored or ridiculed in my attempts to get in contact with them I’ve grown to become more or less petrified of women.
I hope that you will fare better with age than I have done.
my school too! exclusive all girls grammar school….
This is soooooooo good. I love every word. And I am passing it along to all my single lady clients. The art of being feminine – something I am fascinated by and am so grateful you out how important it is for dating into words. My favorite is the last line “And I’m discovering that to win at not wanting, and not having, may not be a game worth winning, in the end.” And the shout out to your insecure teenager – Amen!
It seems to me that your title should really be How STRAW Feminism Screwed Up My Love Life –because lady, let me tell you, you were NOT a feminist. A feminist is someone who fights systematic oppression of gender, sex, race, and sexuality. No where in this essay do I see you talk about how you did any of those things. HATING MEN has absolutely nothing to do with feminism. Please continue to educate yourself, and don’t mislabel Feminism, even to make what you THINK Is a valid point. “The typical straw feminist promotes radical ideas: she says that all… Read more »
Thank you!
In its original form, feminism was a relatively egalitarian movement in support of equal political, economic, and social rights…but Civil Rights legislation took care of women’s political and economic rights. It’s the feminist social movements that are in question. Today, mainstream feminism is a collection of special interest social groups; many of which are random and are cause for scrutiny. I completely disassociate myself from feminism…because I can’t tell you what their platform is, what their unifying goal is, or what their mission statement is. It appears to be a hodge-podge of special interest groups and an umbrella for extremists… Read more »
Are you honestly trying to pull a notruescotsman/notruefeminist would do that fallacy? “HATING MEN has absolutely nothing to do with feminism.” Yet there are many feminists who do exactly that (not the majority but significant numbers). Google the Agent Orange Files, google the SCUM manifesto groups, look at radfems who absolutely hate men and are extremely transphobic. But I have to ask who gets the right to define feminism? What right do you have to tell this person their feminism is not real feminism? You are dictating what feminism is to a self-identified feminist who believes she was a feminist.… Read more »
Sorry that should be death threats against Erin Prizzey, who basically started the domestic violence shelters, not Christina.
Archy- you said it. That is exactly why I disassociated from the whole movement. It would take a heck of a lot to restore my faith in feminism. Within 20-30 years our family structure, gender identity, institution of marriage, and dating has been negatively affected –primarily by–women’s social empowerment. I am total supporter of equal political and economic rights and EO. Men and women should have a right to vote, hold office, own property, file suit, have a job, fight for their country, assemble…etc, etc. but not at the cost of women dictating ‘social behavior’…depending on the whim of HERstory.… Read more »
Would you please explain to me how this works? “I am total supporter of equal political and economic rights and EO. Men and women should have a right to vote, hold office, own property, file suit, have a job, fight for their country, assemble…etc, etc. but not at the cost of women dictating ‘social behavior” How do we get the EO and political power without also gaining power in social spheres? What are you particularly objecting to? Should women have equal political power but remain unequal in the home? Are you objecting to redesigning marriage which has been redesigned many… Read more »
I think she means women dictating social behaviour fully, without men’s input instead of a 50:50 mix. Men have to adjust their behaviour to suit women without women having to adjust their behaviour to suit men or both working to a common ground.
Exactly, women have become the arbiters of social behavior to the point where men (and women) must play guessing games. Take a simple example of a man helping a woman in public. It’s anyone’s guess what the response will be today. If a man helps one woman carry an item, he’s hero and receives gratitude. The next woman he tries to help carry an item, he gets an earful that he’s stereotyping her as a weakling. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Feminism has made helping women, a weakness?? Take for example a man whistling at a woman… Read more »
“Feminism has made disagreeing with women, a form of misogyny??”
I swear Juliar Gillard (Prime minister of Australia) uses the word misogyny loosely to try smear her opponents, I’ve also seen others who think criticism of a woman = misogyny, or even criticism of feminism is somehow misogyny. Hell I got accused of misogyny for posting stats about male victims of domestic violence on my own facebook, told that I must hate women cuz I talk about male victims a lot….what the fuck?
“I think men need to set these women straight and start taking back some control.”
I’d rather both share control n work out what is acceptable and what isn’t.
The Civil Rights movement, with help of the early women liberators and activists, put the laws in place for political and economic equality and addressed the social issues of getting women out of the kitchen and secretarial pool and into the boardroom and much more. For all intents and purposes we became equal in the eyes of the law and quite rapidly. But the problem I see is that there is no unifying goal within the feminist movement, it has become a collection of special interests. Every self-proclaimed feminist that I’ve talked to has a different utility for calling herself… Read more »
So, its early and I may not do a good job at this. I’m not sure what all these: “Whether the purpose is to stay out of the kitchen, she wants lactating stations at the workplace, domestic violence issues, harassment concerns, she wants to be a breadwinner, higher wages, better divorce laws, healthcare for gay partners, after-birth pills delivered to 3rd world countries: the list goes on and on.” Mean that feminism is un-unified-all those things concern what makes for equity as a human being. I try to think critically about how our cultural stories get told. Legally, is one… Read more »
Correction. There were castration and vasectomy measures in place under the Eugenics laws (mainly for criminals, the mentally retarded, and anyone of color that wasn’t considered good stock) of the early 20th century as well as the forced sterilization of at least 25,000 native American women. Lawsuits occurred and WW2 cast a very negative light on eugenics in the US. Interestingly, the US and Puerto Rico began a sterilization program for women in PR. Some 34% women of childbearing years were operated on by the early 70’s. So it’s interesting to me that many governments have actively done this work… Read more »
what I hate from feminism is the way they always said male hating and misandry is a myth. And no, its not about male castration or online red fems or anything like that. Why men hate feminism is just because we feel that feminist ( not rad fems, just feminist ) always put all men in one spectrum, bad guys. Just look at nice guys syndrome theory and shaming from feminist. Yes, thats what I called misandry and men hating, a believe that most men are bad, most men just want sex, most nice guys act nice just to get… Read more »
I wonder why I know hundreds of feminists who love their husbands and sons then. Seems odd. I don’t doubt you, John. But I do doubt trusting modern media to tell you how real people feel. I”m a feminist. Have been one for decades. Love men. Write for GMP. Have sons. Think they and their dad (been with him 20 years) are awesome. Am smart enough to know that all human beings are quite varied in their behavior and attitudes. So…it’s not this overarching hatred thing you posit.
This is “not my Nigel syndrome”. “Not my Nigel” is the habit of people who make broad generalizations about a class of people, but then say but MY NIGEL is the exception to the rule. It is a problem of corrupt schema. In this case, the schema that has been advanced by many feminists includes things like men are violent, men are selfish, men are testosterone poisoned, men need to be rescued from their toxic hegemonic masculinity, men are unfaithful, men are …. well whatever. Most feminists to not subscribe to all of these, sometimes only a couple, sometimes none… Read more »
I don’t want to speak for Joan, but I think what shes saying is that the civil rights movement was a group of people working together to achieve some very specific goals. After those goals were completed in the late 60s and 70s the movements more or less disbanded or splintered off into groups focused on specific things. With the woman’s rights movement they had specific goals and mostly achieved them, but they also created a label, “feminist”, and asked that everyone who believed in gender equality refer to themselves as such, something the black civil rights activists never did… Read more »
That’s much more clear, thanks.
Now the word feminist is used, like Joan, said as a catch all banner for a number of special interest groups. If they were just using it for a catch all banner I’d be fine with it. Unfortunately it goes beyond that. During the whole twitter fiasco over the #ineedmasculism tag (which by the way plenty of feminists came out and openly made fun of the tag while actively refusing to engage, even made posts about how proud they were of such brilliance) I managed to get the attention of one exact feminist who gave me a bit of an… Read more »
I read much of your twitter argument. I think twitter is useless for dialogue. Too short, too weird to type in limits of characters, no ability to stop ask real questions.
It was frustrating reading your posts and her responses. Don’t buy that the posts are good examples of what both of you were trying to get across but both not hearing/seeing.
Twitter is inherently flawed in that regard and I won’t participate in conversations that should build (on already difficult ground).
Too short, too weird to type in limits of characters, no ability to stop ask real questions. While I can agree it might not be possible for people to have a full out discussion I do think that Twitter has contributed to people putting more effort into making their points as clear and consice as possible, meaning that in a some (or maybe a lot of) cases you’re getting someone’s real questions and answers. Twitter is inherently flawed in that regard and I won’t participate in conversations that should build (on already difficult ground). For some people (such as you… Read more »
I haven’t been so disgusted for such a long time than I have yesterday reading twitter with the stupid war between bigots and a few decent folk in between. It’s sad to see people laugh about real male issues, I swear many of them just see men as this one being, a rich white CEO/president type with heaps of power who beats n rapes his wife n kids n thus has little sympathy. Doesn’t seem many care of the men swallowing the barrel killing themselves, dying in dangerous jobs, being conscripted into wars they don’t believe in, being raped by… Read more »
” It’s sad to see people laugh about real male issues” And they said male hating and misandry is a myth. Sorry, Julie, or other feminist, just because you’re having a husband and a son doesn’t mean your cant hate men. Just like because you’re a father and have a daughter doesn’t mean you cant hate women. All those feminist that laugh at men issues and saying male abuses is not important ( because women are always the victims ), are all of them lesbians and not married and not have a son? NO, because its not important. You could… Read more »
Thanks guys, it is more clear. GMP eats my posts and I start again and it turns into a mess.
I don’t have an axe to grind with corporations or the media having a profit-motive, I’m not waging a war against basic economic principles. It’s the feminist label where I disassociate myself. Hopefully the extremists don’t get funding or press. “Men are half the human race. I’d rather focus on ways all of us can move towards peace, equity, mutual respect and seeing each other as vital human members of the same team then put all my energy into websites from MRA or Radfem that seem to me to be nothing but violent fantasies spurred from unhealthy minds.” I totally… Read more »
I’m sorry that people treated you badly. That wasn’t kind or fair of them. I wish human beings could cut out the microagressions which only seem to happen when people want status or to devalue others. That’s a human thing, and pervades all the “isms.” I don’t believe that I emasculate men by having had a full life filled with messages that I can work and create and produce and be independent while also choosing (happily, mind you) to create an interdependent life with a husband and family. I don’t hold any ill feelings towards families of all types and… Read more »
I wish there were far more feminists like you in the pubic eye to combat the stigma of the label. I believe you would champion a much better version of VAWA for instance, problem is I fear the gynocentric feminists have the dominant hold on political influence for feminism and even a few radical/extremists seem to have some power there too. If it were just egalitarian feminists like yourself in power I wouldn’t be worried at all but I don’t want to see another gendered VAWA, or yet another anti-abuse action where we ignore up to half the victims because… Read more »
Archy, I understand your frustration, but suspect you are making a couple of fundamental mistakes. The first is that power of any kind tends to be conservative, in the sense that it acts to conserve itself. The segments of the feminist world that have power, act to preserve that power. In this case that power is either through the courts,or is derived from government by way of political power. The standard narratives are used for political marketing, and challenging those threatens the perception of political weight that feminist power wielders bring to bear. VAWA was created using a narrative, and… Read more »
@rezam – That is such a great comment – distinguishing between feminists within existing power structures and feminists outside them. I would add that within academia there may be also be an important difference between a gender/women’s studies 101 type class and the latest feminist theory being offered by academics at the front edge. It takes a long time for the newest, best ideas to filter down into the mainstream curriculum. On a different thread I noted the difference between theory, advocacy, and individual feminists, but I was thinking after reading your post this morning that there’s a culture piece… Read more »
Agreed. I’m a “regular” person in the world. Do not sit in hallowed halls of power, nor frankly do I want to. Often what one has to do to achieve that kind of conservative power is trade in the activism and advocacy that got you started in the first place. The reason Archy doesn’t see more women like me is because they are just out there doing what they do, and not commenting online. Just like there are men doing work for men out there where it doesn’t turn into some of the most vitriolic of the MRA posts. That… Read more »
rezam: The first is that power of any kind tends to be conservative, in the sense that it acts to conserve itself. The segments of the feminist world that have power, act to preserve that power. In this case that power is either through the courts,or is derived from government by way of political power. The standard narratives are used for political marketing, and challenging those threatens the perception of political weight that feminist power wielders bring to bear. VAWA was created using a narrative, and they will not let that narrative go. Now the interesting part is that in… Read more »
Whoa, comment of the month! You sound like a very strong woman, sorry to hear about the chemicals though. 🙁
@ Julie Gillis ” Forced sterilizations has been happening to Ethiopian women (Israel was requiring it for new settlers)” It would be nice if you were able to explain this. Sterilization is the permanent elimination of the ability to reproduce. There is NO known pharmacological offering that acts as a sterilization drug. There are two types of process used for female sterilization – surgical tubal ligation, and transluminal processes that block the Fallopian tubes. You are alleging that Israel was conducting tubal ligations or transluminal procedures without consent (forced sterilization). The story as advanced by an investigative reporter for an… Read more »
“Do they actually have real political influence? Sit in seats of actual power? Are they actually making laws or are they complaining and posting radical academic theory that will never see the light of legal day?” That’s the thing, in Australia I hear they do. The extremist MRA’s though do not have that power, they seem to just run their mouth off online. http://radfemhubexposed.blogspot.com.au/ this site talks about it, not sure how legit it is, haven’t read it all but the first bits and especially “the plan” which is the proposed VAWA equivelent to Australia I guess looks pretty fucking… Read more »
Thank you Archy, I’m still looking for that place with the “real feminists” but I haven’t found it. The closest was NSWATMz and the GMP. But following some “feminists” these place aren’t feminist sites but MRA. And some feminist have even placed a boycott to GMP. Now are they good feminists or posers? Some time ago postulated that good feminists are not online because they are working in the real world. But we can easily dismiss that claim (as I wrote in another threat) we are living in 2013 not 1996 everybody is online (yes there is more on the… Read more »
Some time ago postulated that good feminists are not online because they are working in the real world. But we can easily dismiss that claim (as I wrote in another threat) we are living in 2013 not 1996 everybody is online (yes there is more on the internet than Facebook). I know right? Apparently we can get live up to the millisecond tweets of slut walks, symposiums on gender issues, and everything else between but “real feminists” aren’t online? If its true that feminism is for equal right and not just some fluffy congregation of wants by some women, then… Read more »
And, very minor point, thanks for saying “straw feminist” instead of “strawman.” I’ve always been annoyed at the selective gender-neutraling of language. The words with “-man” in them that describe things to be beaten up and destroyed (“strawman”) or people with unattractive jobs (“trashman”) seem to have been left alone, while chairperson, salesperson, etc. have proliferated.
Terri, thank you for writing this. As a girl who grew up in the 80s as well, your comments about the tension between cultivating (and absolutely valuing/appreciating) our “girl power” style independence and allowing ourselves to enjoy intimate relationships with men absolutely resonate. At 34 now, I’m still unravelling the beliefs that sneakily accumulated into genuine (and confusing/often frustrating) ambivalence around dating/relationships: Do I even WANT to be in long-term intimate relationships?? is still the question being massaged. I’ve just recently come to understand for myself that if I’m able to confidently own and express my need (/desire) for space,… Read more »
“I certainly don’t regret how feminism has served me: I’ve learned to be aggressive, tough, resilient, and have had many successes in my life as a result. I never have let a man get in my way–are you kidding? No one ever stood a chance.” A very interesting piece, which really got me thinking. I must say, as someone who taught on gender issues from around 1980 to 1997, and continues to read and write about them all the time, I have found much of feminism to be anti-male, all the protesting from many thoughtful women notwithstanding. But as for… Read more »
I suppose 70’s feminism meant acting less like a (traditional gender normed) woman and more like a (traditionally gender normed) man. And of course there were the Alan Aldas doing similar reversals. To be successful as a woman meant abandoning some of the traits that were perceived as weak, vulnerable, compassionate, gentle because to succeed in “a man’s world” you had to play the game as a man. Of course now we live in a culture that is highly aggressive, non compassionate, focused on bottom lines, business and success and not too keen on vulnerability at all. WIN! So, I’d… Read more »
It sounds like the article and many of the comments aren’t talking about feminISM but are really talking about feminINITY. What secondwave/70s-80s/GloriaSteinem feminism was primarily (myopically perhaps) focused on was breaking the femininity-as-chain bonds that forced women to stay in traditional roles. And the movement (mostly) succeeded in breaking the biology-is-destiny hold on women. But in doing so, every other piece of the gender puzzle was dislodged too. So while the movement helped women move into traditionally-male spaces and display masculine attributes, everything else became muddled (at best) or vilified (at worst). Could women choose to be more masculine and… Read more »
Just a thought that sprung to mind as I’m reading this piece and associated comments:
When women are included in any place intended to be a primarily or exclusively male space, the tone/tenor/dynamic of said space will inevitably turn its focus to what women want from men. Every. Time.
I think that’s one of the connotations inherent in the phrase “good men.” Good men, as in what other people want to see in a man, or as in how to tell a good man like you can tell a good melon in the supermarket, or how to make yourself more marketable as a man.
I’m glad that at the end you mention that your idea of feminism has changed to mean that you don’t have to bring men down to lift women up. Feminism is not about putting men beneath women, it is about lifting women up to be equal to men in our society. It’s not about thinking that you don’t need men. It’s not about not having a romantic partner. It’s about ensuring that women have equal rights, equal pay, equal opportunities. To think that it means that men are obsolete, useless, or that women are better than men, is a misuse… Read more »
I find feminism is nowhere near as monolithic in that belief of equality. Some of the largest feminist site are just as vile as some MRA sites. Example would be radfemhub.com at first look everything is okay but After Reading little deeper I found a deep seeded believe that until all men are striped from power and made second class citizens feminism has not gone far enough. That is another ‘brand’ of feminism and it has been known to influence law and politics. On top of that some issues are too complicated to be summed up simply trying to make… Read more »
Hey Bobby, I just wanted to say that while I’m not personally familiar with the site you mention, it sounds like that’s leaning towards an extreme form of feminism. Extremism comes along with everything (unfortunately) and as a feminist who believes in the equality of women and men in society, it is disappointing that extremist groups use the word feminism in their labels and therefore give the general feminist movement a bad rep. Reverse sexism and feminism are not the same thing, but they are often linked together because groups who advocate for reverse sexism use the word ‘feminist’ in… Read more »
Jezebel, ugh, that place breeds anti-feminism when you see the level of petty sexism thrown at men and the dismissal of issues that can occur. I wonder if their staff still find domestic violence against their bf’s funny?
I know. I stopped checking Jezebel completely recently when they ran an article written by a woman who boasted that she loved putting down what she considered to be idiot men and publicly correcting their opinions. She writes that she interrupted a conversation a guy was having with his friends in a bar to tell him that his opinion was wrong and then when he became upset and lashed out at her, she used his reaction as an example of misogyny. Um no, it’s not misogynistic to disagree with women. Maybe he overreacted when he started shouting at her, but… Read more »
Screenshot the comments, they deserve to be shown to highlight the bigotry.
Sabrina, you’re 100% right. As someone else commented here, it’s not feminism, but the misappropriation of feminism that’s to blame. It shd be power TO, not power OVER. I do not believe by any stretch men are obsolete–and to make that the goal or point would be to make feminism just a different flavor of sexism.
Yes! Thank you.
I don’t think being considered “obsolete” is the end of the world, either. There are lots of things today that appear to be obsolete but still have their fans: conversation, the missionary position, fresh vegetables from the garden, baking your own bread, snail mail, etc. Let’s say as a man I really am obsolete. That just means I’m an antique. The women who love me are antiquarians. I have a cult following. I’m a niche market. I’m out of style, but I have sentimental value nonetheless. Think about all the valuable items on Antiques Roadshow that are completely “obsolete.”
I dated a bunch of girls in my late teens/early twenties. I ended up marrying my college sweetheart who I met when I was 21 (we married when I was 27). Fast forward 10 years, and I am now divorced and dating again. A lot of the women that I meet are really smart, independent, social butterflies, workout a lot, etc. If I were looking for a business partner or workout buddy, I’d feel great with any of them. But I’m looking for a romantic partner with whom I can be intimate and vulnerable and who makes me feel like… Read more »
“I’m looking for a romantic partner with whom I can be intimate and vulnerable and who makes me feel like I am special and important to them by showing their vulnerabilities, hopes, dream, insecurities, etc” G, I used those exact same words ‘intimate’ and ‘vulnerable’ with a man not too long ago. It was opposite of what he said he was looking for. He claimed that he wanted an independent woman and something casual and non-emotional. But he had already been burnt by two independent, business-woman, feminist ex-wives, who were very careless with his heart. From all indications, he was… Read more »
Ah yes. I hear you. I like to think of it as all of us being soft on the inside, with all diff candy-coated shells. I have mine, for sure. If you saw me at the gym, I’d look downright business minded and no-bullshit. But if I’m getting to know someone intimately, a whole different side comes out. I think the challenge for men is to break through that facade–b/c trust me it is one.
One way that hetero relationships have gotten off-track is when people equate “don’t need men” with “keep men out of your life.” Then, in reaction, many men feel insulted when they are told that they are “not needed” or “unnecessary.” (As in the book _Are Men Necessary?_) My question is, why is “being necessary” the be-all and end-all of a person’s existence? I understand many people have a strong desire to feel needed, and many people have a strong desire to focus only on the things they need out of life, but just meeting your needs cannot be your entire… Read more »
This is such an excellent point. Love it. I’m going to think about it more. You’re right–the idea of needing vs. wanting, and do we “need” men, do men “need” women, and are we necessary as a rule? Such a great take on the topic. PS – check out Katie Roiphe’s book “In Praise of Messy Lives”–it’s excellent–and in it she has a chapter in which she takes down Maureen Dowd in about as lovely a way as someone can. You will love it.
“You can consider me a luxury.” – wellokaythen, I love that!
I just kept thinking that being needed isn’t always such a great thing. There’s a reason why calling a man a “tool” is an insult…..
Saying “no” up front will save you a lot of grief in the end….I have regretted saying “yes” and not respecting my own intuition in the past….If you’re not that into him, just say so….
It’s like watching SATC….if those women just said “no” to a lot of those guys (and there were so many), they would have saved themselves a lot of angst…You can see some guys are trouble right away….why ignore the signs and waste your time?