Carlo Alcos wonders why guys think entering the friend zone is a failure.
Many a guy has been lamented in his life for entering the “friend zone” with a girl. Like it’s this evil, sex-less place where all you can expect is a hug, some good company, and a wank when you get home. And we all know that’s not true. You can have a wank whenever the damn well you feel like it.
But that’s not the point. Men are expected to score, not make BFFs. It’s partly because of this: “I think you’re a really great guy, but I don’t want to ruin our friendship.” When a man is judged by his peers by his ability to seal the deal, this is not conducive to winning points. He might question himself. What’s wrong with me? Why do I keep doing this?
This can get into the mind, burrowing deep down, until he’s so aware of it that he’s consciously afraid to become friends with females. Because becoming friends with the opposite sex is seen as failure. Or that you’re gay. The “nice guy” doesn’t get to sleep with the cheerleader. He’s the one the cheerleader calls in the middle of the night to bitch about the jerk she just slept with who took off. The nice guy has never wanted to be a jerk so badly in his life.
As guys (and girls) we put way too much focus and pressure on sex and romantic relationships. It may be glaringly obvious, but this is especially true when we’re single and “looking.” All of a sudden, every person of the opposite sex we meet has this potential to be “the one.” They’re sized up as a potential mate. From a guy’s perspective, this is the all-pervading question we ask ourselves: “would I sleep with her?” If the answer comes back as a Yes, then friendship — true friendship — is to be avoided at all costs.
This is a shame. It’s this way that we stop being ourselves. The dating world is rife with people who try too hard, who play games, who manipulate situations and people for an end result. All this at the cost of just being a good, down-to-earth person. Is it really worth it? We have this knack — this ability — to cause ourselves so much suffering where it really is unnecessary. The phrase that constantly comes back to me, no matter what I’m struggling with or thinking about is, “Let go.” Let go of expectations. Let go of any notion of what we’re “supposed” to be. Just be.
Allow things to happen naturally instead of fighting and twisting situations into things they are not. And again, as harped about at this site, this is where the self-love comes into play yet again. When we can be OK within ourselves, we’re able to let go and allow life to unfold as it should, not as we think — or, more accurately, as we’re conditioned — it should.
The friend zone has a bad reputation, whereas it should be honoured and appreciated. If romance is meant to happen, it will happen.
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Have you ever kicked yourself for entering the friend zone? Or…perhaps you think that men and women can’t be friends? We’d love to hear your stories.
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Originally published on ConfrontingLove.com by Carlo Alcos
I’ve always thought the Friendzone issue to be blown sadly out of proportion. I think an intelligent adult should be able to have a friendship or at least an acquaintanceship with another adult, without sexual overtones of any kind. I don’t view every man I meet as a potential love interest. I view him as person, who I might or might not get to know better. I think it’s insulting to suggest that every relationship between men and women must have a sexual overtone, it suggests that we’re animals who can’t control ourselves, who must leap on the nearest person… Read more »
I am currently in a relationship with a nice guy. This is the most REFRESHING guy to have a relationship with as I can take his words and actions at face value. I don’t have to take part in the old songs and dances of dealing with owing or wondering what he expects from me in return. It all works out for us equally in the long run. No keeping score. No heavy doubts. No anxiety. There is an understanding that we are friends first. Without that foundation, we are nothing. I have, in the past, had platonic friendships with… Read more »
If you are attracted to a woman you do not want to be friends..
The vast majority of friend-zoned guys are just wasting their time.
The female equivalent is the girl who is a guys F-buddy but hopes for a real relationship.
Seriously this completely misses the mark. THe reason why it’s a failure is not because guys don’t rate friendship. It’s simply the case of a guy liking a girl and then getting heartbroken that the affection isn’t return. It’s simply a case of unrequited love. There’s no problem with guys being friends with a girl where there isn’t the same amount of affection Really if it’s a case of unrequited love, it’s completely a bad idea to continue on the friendship afterwards. Falling in love with someone and then becoming closer friends with someone and getting to know them more… Read more »
Yes yes, good point. I don’t quite understand the idea of “friendzone” meaning a guy thinking he’s entitled to sex. I’ve certainly had advances repelled and told that we should just be friends, and it’s worked out great! Usually, this is because I liked the girl but I wasn’t nuts about her. “Friendzone” to me is when you end up in a situation where you’re really into someone and they just can’t feel the same way about you. You end up feeling weak, and desperate, and you do stupid stuff that does you harm. It sucks!
KC Krupp – “I’m sure there are men who have also be relegated to the role of FWB while wanting emotional intimacy. I personally have been in both places.” I can assure you that if given the choice between being a just a platonic friend AND being a FwB, to the woman a guy is romantically interested in; the vast majority of men would prefer the latter. I’m not saying that it when he ultimately faces romantic rejection the guy wont get hurt. But I cannot think of any guy who was romantically interested in a woman and wouldn’t have… Read more »
Yeah, they’ll choose the latter…until they don’t want it anymore.
Until just having sex with that person sucks your soul. And you feel, no, not “numb” as people like to say, but literally like you’re dying a bit inside.
Yeah, it will happen, especially if that’s what he really wants. If he doesn’t actually want a real thing, his heart won’t catch up to him. I’m telling you this from experience…you know, being a human male.
But if we make a comparison its worse being limited to just a platonic non-sexual being, by the person you’re attracted to or interested in romantically. When they have sex with you, atleast you know they find you desirable on some level. Atleast you get the chance to be physically intimate with them. Atleast you get some validation that they enjoyed being with you. Atleast you can tell yourself that it wasn’t your physical appearance it was some other reason. It is much worse to see the woman, you’re interested in, just limit you as a friend while she’s banging… Read more »
Alrighty, so question for those of you who are proponents of the idea of the friend zone: What if the woman doesn’t realize you want to be more than friends?
It’s funny, I hear women say things like this. Then I hear women laugh about how transparent men are when they’re interested in a woman.
So on one hand women aren’t stupid, they know that the guy offering to drive two hours to see her has a crush. But when it’s convenient to “not know”, suddenly they can’t be expected to realize that the guy taking them out to dinner three times a week has romantic interest in them.
If the person is honestly and genuinely unaware, then I would not fault or blame that person. But now a question for you. What if a male person does not realize that a woman finds him to be creepy and threatening?
“Alrighty, so question for those of you who are proponents of the idea of the friend zone: What if the woman doesn’t realize you want to be more than friends?”
According to multiple posters if you bother to scroll up from this very comment, you’ll see it’s not friendzone. Many of us define friendzone when she KNOWS he likes her, and she USES the extra attention, gifts, favours n what not whilst NOT being a decent friend (since most friendships aren’t 1 sided).
“Many of us define friendzone when she KNOWS he likes her, and she USES the extra attention, gifts, favours n what not whilst NOT being a decent friend (since most friendships aren’t 1 sided).” Maybe I’m in the minority, but this is not the definition of friendzone to me. Read my response above. Seriously, in my lifetime, I think I’ve met perhaps one out of 40 women who did this. Most women (or men for that matter) do not do this and would rather cut off a relationship than to take advantage and use people like this. “Friendzone” to me… Read more »
Maybe I’m in the minority, but this is not the definition of friendzone to me. Seriously, in my lifetime, I think I’ve met perhaps one out of 40 women who did this. If you have never experienced such bad or unfavorable interactions, then lucky for you. However, the fact that you have avoided such interactions does not negate or disprove the reality for other people who have experience and suffered such interactions. Most women (or men for that matter) do not do this and would rather cut off a relationship than to take advantage and use people like this. Really?… Read more »
It depends on who you talk to. I typically see four interpretations of the FriendZone from guys: 1. The original meaning coined by PUAs where the use of “Friend” in “Friendzone” is sarcastic and intended to make fun of and deride other men, the AFCs (average frustrated chumps,) who pursue women by acting as a being friends with them first, hoping that the ways that media portray a man should attempt to attract a woman will work. In the original meaning it does not matter if the woman knows of the man’s intentions or not. It’s criticizing the man not… Read more »
Great points, thank you
Also, I’m going to keep bringing up the fact that the whole “Nice Guys are just jerks!” idea rests firmly on the foundation that men are only ever looking for just sex, and that a man who is upset about feeling rejected and/or led on is “only mad that the woman won’t have sex with him”. It may shock some of you to learn that men actually fall in love with women (and want to have relationships with women, which include but are not limited to sex).
Yeah, women say “guys who are being nice to us because they want sex / dating arent being nice…they’re jerks”
What’s wrong with wanting sex and dating, I wonder
It actually boils down to the women not being attracted to those men.
Here! Here! The biggest mistake I’ve ever made in life is ‘falling in love’. Although that’s my natural inclination, things never work out going that route. If I stay aloof, rabidly virile and go with my more basal instincts, women cling to me like white on rice. The moment I become the nice, loyal, devoted, loving guy, game change ensues. I don’t like to play the kind of mind games that these realities represent, but they’re necessary from a guy’s standpoint. Women respond better to a man who follows his natural instincts. Those men that attempt to mold themselves to… Read more »
“Those men that attempt to mold themselves to what women ‘say they want’ have the hardest time in life.” AMEN and spot on. This is probably the wisest and most realistic comment out of all in this thread. The way I look at it, noone can really blame women for friendzoning men. Simply put, if you are a guy and a woman places you in the “friendzone”, that doesn’t mean she dislikes, disrespects, or secretly wishes to take advantage of you. I do admit to that existence of some people actually take pleasure in hurting and using people. However, very… Read more »
“With that being said, I would say I have since adopted an approach to relationships with women that has worked well for me over the years and has allowed me to avoid the frustration that so many of the commenters here are describing. Simply put, as a single man who is looking for a romantic relationship, I really don’t become “friends” with women because it’s not in my interest, and frankly, I find platonic female relationships to be unnecessary for my own happiness as a man. I tell women I meet this from the start” That is absolutely the correct… Read more »
Simply put, if you are a guy and a woman places you in the “friendzone”, that doesn’t mean she dislikes, disrespects, or secretly wishes to take advantage of you. I do admit to that existence of some people actually take pleasure in hurting and using people. However, very few women or men, outside of those who suffer from emotional and mental instability, are like this because it takes way too much extra energy and effort to be a complete douchebag rather than someone who treats others fairly. You have this notion that “using” or “taking advantage” of people requires some… Read more »
Some women love to have as many guys in the friend zone as possible. It’s a giant ego boost to have multiple guys pining after you. In addition, whenever you need something, just call on one of your friend zone guys. Bored? Call the friend zone guy. Need help fixing something or moving, call the friend zone guy. Also, the guys in the friend zone serve as standbys in case things don’t work out with the actual targets of their affection. Some friend zone guys are also ‘friends with benefits’. Kind of a fall back or safety switch thing. Friend… Read more »
“Bored? Call the friend zone guy. Need help fixing something or moving, call the friend zone guy.”
Yeah, that’s not a friend zone thing…that’s a friend, friend thing. When I’m bored, I often call my friends to hang out. When I need help with something, I call my friends to help me out. And then they’re bored or need some help with something, they’ll call me. It’s called friendship. No one’s using anyone for anything. Like…just because I have a friend who I call every time my computer explodes, doesn’t mean I’m only her friend because she’s good with computers.
HeatherN, you do realize that the friendzone is very commonly referred to when the guy is used right? Need help fixing something? Call the guy you barely talk to until you need something. Would that work better?:P
Yeah, that’s not a friend zone thing…that’s a friend, friend thing. It’s a “friend, friend thing” so long as both “friends” are both able to ask those favors of each other and are both willing to do those kinds of things for each other when they are able. With a “friend zone thing,” asking for help and favors is usually unilateral and one-sided. The person putting people in his/her “friend zone” expects that persons in the zone will make themselves available, perform favors, provide help, etc. when he/she calls upon them. Generally, the person who maintains a “friend zone” is… Read more »
Outside of really bad sitcoms, I’ve never actually seen anyone put into the friendzone. I’ve seen guys online saying they think they’ve been put into friendzones before…but I’ve never known a person (man or woman) who uses another human being like that. I’m sure it does happen sometimes…some people are assholes. Some people are users. They exist. But a woman who calls up her buddy when she’s bored isn’t friendzoning him. And a woman who calls up a buddy to help with her car trouble, or whatever, isn’t friendzoning him. Relationships (including friendships) aren’t about exchanging “reciprocal favours.” Like, okay,… Read more »
Outside of really bad sitcoms, I’ve never actually seen anyone put into the friendzone. I’ve seen guys online saying they think they’ve been put into friendzones before…but I’ve never known a person (man or woman) who uses another human being like that. I’m sure it does happen sometimes…some people are assholes. Some people are users. They exist. Since you admit that “users” and “assholes” exist despite you never having personally known one, then why does your never having seen someone in the friendzone count as compelling evidence against the phenomenon? Relationships (including friendships) aren’t about exchanging “reciprocal favours.” It’s not… Read more »
Exactly! Thank you! Everyone is using someone for something! Am I being paid enough by my employer? Is my employee providing enough profit? Am I being taken by this sales person? Can I juice my commission with this naive customer? Will my neighbor keep his home up enough to boost the sales price when I get ready to sell? Will my neighbors give me a break when I slack off on keeping up my yard? This list could go on and on. What I’m trying to say is that we all use someone for something all of the time. The… Read more »
I agree that self-interest and exploitation are more widely present in human interactions that most would care to admit. However, I personally do not believe that every relationship is about “using someone for something.” I think a precious few relationships are in good faith and not with the expectation of personal gain.
Agreed. Great relationships are rare. As you said, “…precious few…” On the topic of exploitation, my father always told me, “Son, you’ll have a whole bunch of acquaintances in your life, but very few friends.” I’m still not sure if he was insulting me or trying to teach me something. 🙂
“Since you admit that “users” and “assholes” exist despite you never having personally known one, then why does your never having seen someone in the friendzone count as compelling evidence against the phenomenon?” There is the phenomenon, as in some small percentage of women that use guys who are attracted to them (friendzoned guys) with no expectation of ever sexually reciprocating, but how many is that? This is like the crazy bitch article; the number of women called crazy bitches is a lot more than the number that, say, require restraining orders (actually crazy bitches.) The idea that a woman… Read more »
There is the phenomenon, as in some small percentage of women that use guys who are attracted to them (friendzoned guys) with no expectation of ever sexually reciprocating, but how many is that? Until they can do some kind of sociologically credible tabulation, if ever, it is not credible to claim the number is massive or to write it off as negligible. This is like the crazy bitch article; the number of women called crazy bitches is a lot more than the number that, say, require restraining orders (actually crazy bitches.) It is strange that you would mention restraining orders… Read more »
If you spent less time tryign to explain away the friendzone because your friends don’t use people, and more time reading the experiences of the men here you might..I dunno, realize the friendzone exists? “Relationships (including friendships) aren’t about exchanging “reciprocal favours.”” When it’s extremely 1 sided for no decent reason, what do you call that? When someone is there for a woman and when he is upset, she is not there for him, over n over. “But just because one person feels resentment that the relationship isn’t where they want, doesn’t mean the other person is using them.” So… Read more »
If you have a friend like that, STOP BEING HER FRIEND. I’ve had female friends like that. They are annoying people. Learn to say no.
If you are letting a woman take advantage of you because you have a crush on her, YOU are the one who can put a stop to it by saying “no” to her requests.
If you are letting a woman take advantage of you because you have a crush on her, YOU are the one who can put a stop to it by saying “no” to her requests. I fully agree that we should inculcate people with an amount of cynical guard and sense of “caveat emptor” to all human interactions, whether commercial or personal. If somebody finds that he/she is being taken advantage of, I implore that person to say “no” and terminate the association. However, there should at least be an acknowledgment that using or exploiting people is, you know, bad. I… Read more »
Ok women, I have to ask, when someone says friend zone, you think a guy who is a friend? I regularly see women talk about it as if it’s just friends, do you have guys telling you with teh angst that you put them in the friendzone but you are still their friend? Because most of the guys commenting here are clearly talking about friendzone as where the woman is not actually a friend, but using him for something. Do men have a different idea of the friendzone or something?
I haven’t been able to follow all the convo (I’m pleasantly surprised at how much there is!) but I think you hit on something very important here. I don’t think anyone has agreed on a definition of the “friend zone” – in the context of what I wrote, I am referring to the friend zone as perceived by the male friends of someone who has entered the so-called friend zone…I’m talking about the pressures put on someone by this culture that tells men that it’s not a good thing to become friends with a woman, that if you’re not “scoring”… Read more »
Mr. Alcos,
“Friend Zone” is the colloquial term which may not always be accurately descriptive. When disgruntled persons use the term, they do not often think they have been given the role of “friend.” What they think they have actually been offered is a role as somebody’s suppliant.
“Do men have a different idea of the friendzone or something?”
Yes, because women don’t do it. (Well, of course, every individual situation is different. Some people are users and assholes…and I’m sure there are women and men out there who do this). But on the whole, as a thing…friendzoning isn’t real.
You are either naive, self-delusional, or an outright liar. Every relationship involves some form of usury. Is she pretty enough? Is he tall enough? Does she care for children? Does he make good money? Where did you think the scale came from? 2…7…9, etc? “friendzoning isn’t real.” You need to get real! Seriously – have you been hiding under a rock for that long? Denying reality isn’t going to change reality.
Right, well, if you could not personally insult me that’d be great. But anyway, what you just said…well, that’s a very cynical way to view the world. My relationships most certainly do not involve usury. I just don’t approach them in that way…I’m not concerned with whether someone is pretty/tall/rich/maternal/etc “enough.” Enough for what, anyway? Enough to match me on some ridiculous scale that only PUAs use? Enough to fit into my set ideas about what is desirable? Enough to satisfy my needs? That’s a very selfish way to approach a friendship or romantic relationship. I don’t interact with other… Read more »
Basically every non-familial human interaction is about “getting something from them”. From treating my wife well so that she’ll continue to provide me with love, companionship, emotional support, sex, etc, to being polite to the checker at the grocery store so that I can have a pleasant transaction. Do you think my wife would continue our marriage if I had nothing to offer? Do you think the checker would be polite to me if that attitude didn’t help get through their workday in a more satisfying way? Why have a relationship of any sort with someone if you get nothing… Read more »
Me me me I I I. HeatherN, friendzone is much bigger than you. No one is saying ALL women friendzone, but SOME women DO friendzone. Some women DO use others, some MEN do it as well. Just because you or your friends don’t friendzone doesn’t mean others don’t. Do you or your friends rape, beat up, abuse men? If not will you tell me that no woman ever has? (Keep in mind I have been physically and sexually assaulted by women so I know the truth)
And for that, I respect you.
I would say there are probably some amount of women who are taking advantage of men who are attracted to them. The way this term gets bandied about, however, says far more about male culture expectations (as opposed to individual men’s expectations, which may or may not be as problematic as the term) that men are being used if their female friend friend needs a favor. The expectations that a friend friend (not a maybe more than a friend) should reciprocate in sex is problematic. That is part of what the author is addressing here.
HeatherN, I think, generally, when people talk about “being friendzoned”, they’re either talking about being taken advantage of by a woman who realizes they are interested in her and she doesn’t feel the same way, or a situation where a woman allows a situation to continue where it started out with some potential for romantic involvement but she lost interest (and she never made that fact clear and still allowed him to continue taking her out, buying her gifts, etc). If that’s what people mean when they say “friend zone”, I think suggesting that it happens rarely enough to make… Read more »
Just because you believe that women don’t do it, and you keep repeating that women dont do it doesnt make your assertion true.
Most of the guys in this comment thread have had it happen to them yet you insist women “don’t do it”. Makes sense.
Yes and oppression against women doesn’t exist because my friends don’t oppress women, is that your logic today? There is no violence against women, only men, because I’ve only seen with my eyes violence against men perpetrated by women and other men but never a man hitting a woman. Does that work too? “Yes, because women don’t do it. (Well, of course, every individual situation is different. Some people are users and assholes…and I’m sure there are women and men out there who do this). But on the whole, as a thing…friendzoning isn’t real.” I don’t think I have met… Read more »
I think there is some confusion because while there may be some number of people who do it, the term is itself problematic. It is hateful and shaming and inappropriate when it is used to express jealousy (when someone has no right to expect anything, and you have not been sending any signals) and reeks of entitlement to sex. If someone doesn’t want to have a relationship with you, but wants you to do stuff for them… Stop helping them. You’d think with all the vitriol of some people going off about a bitch that friendzoned them (I hear in… Read more »
“Yes, because women don’t do it.”
ha!
that statement there …it high-lights a lot of problems between the genders, especially when it comes to the demonizing of men. Check that statement, all of you, reading, really take it in. Chew on it a bit, get the taste in your mouth–swirl it around…then you’ll see the shyte men have been forced to swallow.
Heather N Since youre a woman and the friend-zone rarely happens to women, you probably dont ntice the subtle dynamics between men and their friendships with women. You see, its not always very obvious to and consciously accepted by men that they are friend-zoned; and by women that they have friend-zoned someone. Its not that women are consciously taking advantage of or exploiting guys who are in the friend zone What I’d like you to appreciate is that if men had the ability to somehow magically find out at the start, if the woman would romantically / sexually accept them… Read more »
Heather N
I’d also like you to appreciate that a lot of the positive, helpful, facilitating, attitude of men towards women ,who are supposedly their friends, is a result of romantic/sexual interest in them, in a significant proportion of cases.
No one can necessarily know if they will remain interested after they spend enough time with someone to see another side.
This is going to sound insensitive, but if you feel exploited by being in the friendzone, if you feel exploited when she asks you to help her move, then say no. If you feel like she’s stringing you along, whether that’s her intent or not, then recognize that feeling and either tell her how you feel or end the friendship.
If someone asks you a yes or no question, then NO is a perfectly valid option.
If you don’t want to feel like a doormat, stop lying down in front of her door.
Wellokaythen Its funny that on a feminist website, they were teaching men how to get enthusiastic sexual consent from women instead of just getting a ‘yes’ from her. How to absolutely make sure that a woman is up for it, horny and ready to have sex. They went on to give examples of scenarios where a woman might feel pressured to say yes to a man’s sexual advance when she doesn’t want to. One of the scenarios was where a woman has a crush on a guy and she just agrees to have sex with him because she fears he… Read more »
A woman who feels pressured by her internal insecurity about him leaving and thus has sex with a man HAS NOT BEEN RAPED nor should it ever be refereed to rape. She made a choice based on her interpretation of a situation. If he has threatened her then it could be considered rape if she does it to avoid violence but if she is merely guessing his threat because he’s a man, is bigger, than no, not rape unless he’s actually shown her violence. Women, and men, need to take responsibility there. Anyone calling you a rape apologist for that… Read more »
Well, sex with someone you don’t really know or aren’t comfortable with might be a little more harmful to the psyche than helping someone move. But I wouldn’t say you are a rape apologist for that.
Robyn
Sex with someon you dont really know or arent comfortable with
I was referring to a woman having sex with a man she has a crush on.
I can’t say I’m never a hypocrite. I am aware that I contradict myself sometimes. Sometimes it bothers me, sometimes it doesn’t. I am quick to see contradictions in other people but tend to let them go when I do it. They’re being illogical, I’m just being sophisticated. : – ) I agree that the agency standard should be the same for men and women. Consenting is deciding. Consenting is making a choice. Consenting to try to be friends with someone you’re attracted to is a choice. Choosing to have sex with a man because you’re afraid he will leave… Read more »
Once you’ve had sex with a female and she says she wants to be friends or “I think you’re a great guy but …”. I think it’s time to move on. If you enter the Friend Zone you’re damned. Once you’ve had a piece of cake how can you look at it and not think about it? You’re going to think about it and when you can’t have some it’s going to make you mad and let’s face it if you’re a single dad you don’t need any negativity in your life, you already have enough from your divorce.
Did you really just compare a woman to a cake? Really? Once you’ve “had a piece” you can’t stop thinking about it? IT? Really?
How about instead of thinking about women as things to have, you start thinking about them as people to interact with.
Yes, he did make that comparison to make a point about items and entities that appeal to physical appetites and compulsions.
Is there some rule that all similes and metaphors involving persons may only involve comparison to other persons and/or sentient entities?
The rule is –metaphors and similies that don’t compare women to anything but women or even goddesses are unacceptable. But comparing men to children, puppies, pigs, and dogs (and not even to make a point) is totally acceptable…
or at least my experience has lead me to believe [that many or all women] feel this way.
“Did you really just compare a woman to a cake? Really? Once you’ve “had a piece” you can’t stop thinking about it? IT? Really?
How about instead of thinking about women as things to have, you start thinking about them as people to interact with.”
A woman or just the act of SEX. Cake is tasty, pleasurable and damn delicious, like sex. A piece of cake, a night of passion, it’s a metaphor that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s “HAVING” her.
No, if you want to continue with that analogy, the act of sex could be comparable to the act of eating, perhaps. But one is done to a thing (eating), and the other is done with a person (sex). Sex is not a thing to be obtained…it’s an interaction with another human being.
Oh for gods sake, is there anything that doesn’t offend some people? Sheesh, relax and stop nitpicking everything, you’ll live longer. You must be a general in the “I find that offensive” army by now.
Ah, yes, the egalitarian language reformation mandate. The act of human copulation must never be described through use of a transitive verb, because transitive verbs require direct objects, which would therefore suggest that the other person in a sexual event is an object. Therefore, one must say “fuck with somebody” instead of “fuck somebody” and so on.
You’re scraping the barrel now of shit to be offended by. People enjoy cake, people enjoy sex, when he starts talking about how she owes him sex then get offended but….cake? seriously? I am fine with people comparing sex with me to a nice white sponge cake with blue icing, both are delicious! If he only talk about women like food, then get aggro at him but 1 single instance…?
Own your choices and own your agency. If you want to have a sexual relationship with a woman and she wants to be just friends, then you have some choices to make. If you choose to continue to spend time with her hoping she’ll have sex with you and she doesn’t have sex with you, then that’s you putting yourself in a frustrating situation. Maybe she’s stringing you along, in which case she needs to own up to that, but you’re a willing participant. It is possible that BOTH of you are doing something that’s painful to you. Your disappointment… Read more »
Why do you jump to the conclusion that the main issue a man would have with a woman he’s interested in is sex?
Indeed. Of the frustration I’ve felt, I wanted love….the whole kit n kaboodle, not just sex.
What if she said “I’ll love you but no sexual relationship” – most guys would not want that. A lot of this IS about sex (not that I’m saying that’s wrong). Men are sating they are frustrated when winen they are interesting in having a romantic/sexual relationship with don’t recipricate those feelings.
A sexless relationship, is not a romantic relationship to me unless there is a damn good reason. Love for me REQUIRES as a must the act of sex, it’s 1 part of the bonding process, the ultimate orgasmic bliss with the feelings of love that = heaven. But the thing with the guys frustration is that they are getting a ONE SIDED relationship from her, when she is sad he is there, when he is sad she isn’t there for him, isn’t giving him the same or even similar amount of attention n care or affection. Even sex alone probably… Read more »
Good point. Fair enough. I shouldn’t have elided sex and “more than friends.” Let’s say sex is an example of something a man might want from her but that she doesn’t want from him. I think the advice still stands, maybe even more so. If you want a romantic relationship and she does not, then you have choices to make, and you need to own those choices or own your inability to make a choice. You don’t have control over how you feel and what you want, but pursuing or not pursuing some sort of relationship with her is an… Read more »
Hey Nice Guys:
Can any of you explain how it is manly to complain that your feelings are as delicate as a woman’s, and that your ought to be pitied like a hurt woman?
I’m curious what your idea of “manly” is. Please share.
“Manliness” is what we discuss here at goodmenproject. For example, standing up against rape culture and domestic violence, being responsible to those who depend on you, etc. Just look at the homepage, its all articles about being a man. Being in a toxic relationship, or friendship, that you don’t want to be in, and being unable to leave for some reason…it’s something that afflicts men, but such a man is not an example of manly. Openly pining for a woman who doesn’t want a relationship with you is also an example of not manly. Equating the disappointment of having a… Read more »
Sorry to say it, but nowhere on GMP does it define what manliness is (if I’m wrong, then it’s wrong). This about creating dialogue about issues we face as men…not defining manliness. These: “standing up against rape culture and domestic violence, being responsible to those who depend on you, etc.” are not indications of manliness…they’re characteristics of being a decent and venerable human being. Trying to pigeonhole what manliness is, and then excluding/shaming MEN because they don’t fit your definition of what a man is, is harmful. Don’t pretend to think you know what a “man” is or should be.… Read more »
Your comment is dripping with misogyny.
It is a natural fact that women tend to be more sensitive in many ways than men, and men tend to be tougher in many ways than women.* Men and women now have gender equality (but not sameness) in many areas, but the fact remains true that men and women are different (but not unequal).
Society’s harsher judgments against men who use women for sex than against women who “use” men for friendship probably rests on this fact, and that may be what you’re missing.
*may not apply to timid, geeky boy-men
“*may not apply to timid, geeky boy-men” – step off your pedestal and treat everyone with compassion and understanding. If I define the way you conduct yourself in these comments as unmanly, who’s right? Me or you?
Who here ever claimed that their statements made them “manly” or ever claimed to fulfill your standards of “manly”?
Unfortunately no one has, and it bothers me because these are all adult males taking part in this childish nonsense.
Nobody is forcing you to bother yourself with this supposed “childish nonsense.”
I’m curious about what your idea of Nice Guys is. Yes I know you capitalized it and are probably trying to mean the negative connotation of it but frankly that term has been so broadened that its nearly useless.
How is it manly to whine about female friends not intending to have sex with you, while equating your “pain” and rejection to that of a woman who gets played by a man using her for sex without intending on having a relationship? I want to share something with the bitter virgins around here who may not understand women at all: As a matter of fact, being intimate with someone when you know they want a relationship and they don’t know that you don’t is not nice and is basically a “trick” that will leave people feeling “played,” hurt, and… Read more »
As a matter of fact, being intimate with someone when you know they want a relationship and they don’t know that you don’t is not nice and is basically a “trick” that will leave people feeling “played,” hurt, and rejected, whether male or female. Agreed. That is a bad thing and people should not do it. This is NOT the same kind of hurt or rejection that happens when you are attracted to a friend, and they talk to you about their feelings, and you get nothing out of it because it leaves you frustrated that you aren’t having sex… Read more »
So Dr. Nerdlove’s real name is Mike. Cool.
“If you just want to be friends, I respect that. I just hope you understand that I will need to spend as much time as possible socializing with women I have a shot at being *more* than friends with so I might not be available every time you don’t have a date or feel like having late night phone calls about stuff. I’m honoured to be your friend but I can’t be a friend-zone friend/BFF.” Have that printed out on a card if you can’t remember it. Then live by it. Either she will see you in a new light… Read more »
There’s nothing wrong with being in the “friend zone” or being “just friends”. If that is what you want it to be.
But the thing that a lot of people seem to forget when discussion the issue is, however good it is to be someone’s friend, it is not interchangable with having a lover or a romantic/sexual relationship!
You can have an abundance of friends, but it’s still not a substitute for a lover.
Good point. That’s pretty much what I was thinking. If you ask her out and she wants to be just friends, you are not obligated to be her friend. Be her friend because you want to and you think it’s realistic. Don’t be her friend primarily to get her to have sex with you, and don’t be her friend just to make a point about what a good guy you are. Don’t treat it like it’s some sort of test you have to pass. If you’re not really interested in being just friends, then politely decline and move on. You’re… Read more »
Just as there are different kinds of love and sex and romance and friendships, there are different kinds of things labeled the Friend Zone. There’s not just one kind of “just friends” situation. There are many ways of telling a man you just want to be friends, and many approaches to being friends with a man. Some of these approaches are downright condescending and disrespectful, treating the guy like he’s some sort of sexless homunculus. (been there, done that. ) Other approaches are more respectful and are good starts to real peer-to-peer relationships.(been there, done that, too.) Sometimes “friends” are… Read more »
The friend zone is overwhelmingly a gender specific phenomenon. Only men are ‘affected’ by it. rarely women. The reason is that most men cannot be direct in their approach to women. Most men have been told and also realize that they have to be friends with women first. That women have to like them as friends first. Some men can be direct in their approach. they can make their intentions clear from the beginning. These are the men you see ‘hooking up’ with women. So in practice it is not fair to tell men they should be direct with women… Read more »
Some men can be direct in their approach. they can make their intentions clear from the beginning
Unless the guy being direct in his approach early on is incredibly good looking or has really good social and conversational skills/game, his direct approach will cause him to be tarred with the “creep” label.
honestly, you can be clear about your intentions without being creepy or offensive. Simply make it clear you are going on a date, not hanging out as pals. Don’t ask, “want to get together and hang out or something?” say, “would you like to have dinner?” or coffee or a movie or whatever. If she says no then move on. Will some women be hypersensitive or unreasonable? yes that can happen. But the alternative is to continue a cycle of ambiguous hanging out together in platonic friendships that never go where you want. It’s the other side of the coin… Read more »
Maybe it’s just me, but I have trouble seeing any substantive difference in implied romantic intent between asking someone to “hang out” or “have dinner.” Moreover, I think it has been most of our experience that when a woman invites a man over to “hang out,” she means “have sex” (not always, admittedly, but still quite often).
i’m speaking about my experiences with guys who never ask me on a real date but just want to “do stuff” together in a platonic way. I’m left wondering if they have romantic intentions or not. Now, I’m old enough to have learned that most guys who want to hang out with me are probably attracted to me. But when I was younger, e.g. in college, I was not as clear about that because I had less experience with men. My point is just that if you want to be sexually or romantically involved with a woman, let her know… Read more »
“My point is just that if you want to be sexually or romantically involved with a woman, let her know early on that that’s what you want. It may hurt if you are rejected, but that frees you to hear that you were a misogynistic jerk who just wanted to get into her pants and is moving on because she won’t give you the sex you think you deserve.”
Fixed.
Why should you care if she thinks that? So what?
You need to spend less time stressing about what people think and spend more time focusing on doing the best you can to get what you want out of life.
I think this is a case of how men and women are treated differently in the larger social context. How is it that a guy that treats a woman like that is a misogynistic jerk but a woman that treats a guy like that is just exercising her sexuality? Its not just a matter of stress of the solution would always be, “Why are you worried about what other people think?” rather than calling out those attitudes with the intent to confront and ultimately change them. By this logic why bother confronting the attitude of slut shaming that happens to… Read more »
Calling it out is fine but it sounds like some guys are saying they won’t do what they need to do to get what they want (i.e. continuing to languish in the FZ) out of fear of what people will think if they are more assertive about what they need (i.e. making it clear to women that they want to date and moving on if rejected).
Yeah there are some guys like that and yes that fear is real. Two things need to happen. 1. Those guys have to fight through that fear so that they can express their feelings to women as they see fit rather than trying to express them in some pre-approved manner. 2. Those who sit in judgement of guys that are expressing their feelings as they see fit need to basically stop doing that. I’m sure you’ll agree that “fear of what people will think or how they will treat you” is something that comes in many forms (like “fear of… Read more »
Yes, of course we all think about what others think and it affects us. I’m not denying that. But to find happiness in life, you have to work on being ok with yourself and not worrying too much about negative social attitudes. There really isn’t any other way.
You’re right, Sarah, we should just not care what women think – I mean, if a woman honestly feels like she’s being treated like an object when a man proposes sex and he moves on to the next girl if she turns him down.. why should that man care what she thinks?
By the way, you have absolutely zero idea of what it’s like to be a man in the dating game, so please don’t try to sell us this “Just be upfront and honest! She’ll love that!” nonsense. It’s just femisplaining.
My point is just that if you want to be sexually or romantically involved with a woman, let her know early on that that’s what you want. It may hurt if you are rejected, but that frees you to move on and not waste time. That will work if the feelings of attraction are there early on. But that is not always the case. Back when I was in college I developed feelings for one of my classmates over the course of about 2 years. I think that we can say two years in is way past the point of… Read more »
honestly, you can be clear about your intentions without being creepy or offensive. No, you cannot. A male person is presumptively a threat and a danger if he indicates sexual/romantic interest without prior authorization and clearance from the intended recipient of that interest. Under the “Schrodinger’s Rapist” standard, even initiating platonic exchanges constitutes harassment and transgression if the female person does not invite and solicit the exchanges. Will some women be hypersensitive or unreasonable? yes that can happen. But the alternative is to continue a cycle of ambiguous hanging out together in platonic friendships that never go where you want.… Read more »
I’d suggest you spend less time reading comments from women on the internet and more time in the world … you will find a lot of negative people on the internet but I find most people in life are far more reasonable.
Well put Sarah, I think it’s good to be up front with a girl. Girls like an honest and truthful guy. IF you don’t know how to keep it organic (as in not come off as creepy) then work on it in my opinion. The more we victimize ourselves or others and come up with excuses for why we shouldn’t tell someone how we feel, the more time wasted as Sarah put it. Also I still believe that the friendzone is a mythe, i’ve busted it more than twice. You just have to know that what may be defined as… Read more »
I couldn’t agree more with everything you just said.
Who or what would you practice such things with? Platonic acquaintances? Mannequins?
And yet the legend refuses to die. When and where have you “busted it”? Please tell us.
“Who or what would you practice such things with? Platonic acquaintances? Mannequins?”
*sigh*…no, try practicing on REAL women.
“And yet the legend refuses to die. When and where have you “busted it”? Please tell us.”
Same place everyone else does—in REAL life!
*sigh*…no, try practicing on REAL women *expectorating cough* If a person is unaware of how not to come off as creepy or threatening, that person cannot practice upon REAL women, since REAL women presumably have a right not to be sexually harassed or made to feel offended or threatened. Same place everyone else does—in REAL life! Yay. And I repeat, when and where did he “bust” the myth? He said he did it at least twice. I want to know the circumstances and events that led to him “busting” the myth of the Friend Zone. Were there any witnesses to… Read more »
Our world is not full of only guys who can’t talk to women, and women who won’t put out. If that were so, then were do people come from? I guarantee you, although dating is not easy, most people do it with some amount of success.
You may not want to hear this if you are a nerd, but the way to come across as less creepy may start with putting down sedentary activities, getting in shape, developing personal grooming habits, and cultivating a warm personality.
Our world is not full of only guys who can’t talk to women No, but those are the category of people whom you imagine you are pontificating to. If that were so, then were do people come from? It’s called “rape” or “compulsory heterosexuality” or “compulsory reproduction.” Consent and enthusiasm were not required for successful reproduction. For a lot of human history (and in many places still today), the consent and wishes of female persons did not seem to matter much for copulation and propagation purposes You may not want to hear this if you are a nerd I have… Read more »
Aren’t you a woman on the internet?
Ah, but the negative people on the internet claim to know the incontestable truth about gender relations, and the “reasonable” people are supposedly cowed into saying otherwise because of threats of assault and rape.
True, I’m a woman commenting on a blog on the Internet. It’s a bad habit. This is the thing. If I based my beliefs about men on comments by men on men’s rights blogs, I’d seriously consider becoming asexual or a lesbian. 🙂 If a guy is reading comments on Jezebel or another feminist website and thinks that’s what most women think about men, no wonder he’d get bitter. Internet comments are full of angry, hateful, self righteous people. When you get out in the world and interact with people, you find that most people are refreshingly normal and reasonable.… Read more »
A great open and honest post Sarah.
Kudos to you!
Or they are just wearing their masquerade costumes in the “meat world.” You have heard the phrase “In Vino Veritas.” A similar principle may apply to the internet’s effect on people (with or without getting drunk). Whether the anger is separate from the internet or a product of it may not matter, because it is possibly becoming the dominant mode of social interaction.
I found this to be profoundly helpful, honest, and refreshing. Thank you.
“Most men have been told and also realize that they have to be friends with women first. That women have to like them as friends first.” That was a Spice Girls song, and the point wasn’t that you have to literally be her friend before you can be her lover, it was that if you aren’t friendly and open-hearted (as opposed to acting cool like a “player”) then she won’t give you an opportunity (this is reasonable). If you have literally been told that you must be friends with women before dating them….try to remember who told you that and… Read more »
If I were to find myself single again I would have no need or want for new female friends who did not want a sexual relationship. If I want a friends without a sexual relationship I’ll stick with other men who share a common bond. Not to mention women who friendzone tend to be emotionally needy and high maintenance for the friendzoned man.
Another women are only good for sex” idiot. Many idiots around.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that there are different kinds of “friend zone” women. One very common situation is where a woman says things like “I value you as a friend” or “I just want to be friends” as a way of being nice to a guy she is not attracted to. Often this is a guy in her social circle who has a crush on her. The woman in this case may not actually care that much about being friends but she is trying to reject him in a way that she perceives will be less… Read more »
Great post, Sarah. I think a lot of the resentment around the “friend zone” thing comes from people mistaking the former for the latter.
“I just want to be friends” is direct enough – she said she only wants friendship with said guy (be it to keep the current friendship or to build up to a friendship).
“”Another situation is the woman who intentionally cultivates sexually-charged friendships as a way of getting attention and emotional needs met, yet never wants an actual sexual relationship.”
Which should be fine with some guys posting here, as they also think it’s okay to manipulate women to get what they want and get their attention/emotional and sexual needs met. They can’t complain.
This all reminds me of this saying I heard recently
“For years women have been bemoaning the fact that there just aren’t any good guys left, and usually they are saying it to one”
Saying about men that “all the good ones are taken” is incredibly insulting when you think about it. It’s basically implying that if you’re a man and currently unattached then, by definition, there has to be something wrong with you. If you’re not taken, then you must not be a good one. It’s really just as insulting and just as idiotic as venting something like “all single women are bitchy.”
Besides, there are plenty of bad men who are taken, too…. : – )
“The friend zone has a bad reputation, whereas it should be honoured and appreciated. If romance is meant to happen, it will happen.” It has a bad reputation for good reason. It hurts. Not everyone can simply deal with their romantic feelings and expecting a man to continue a friendship after knowing he likes her and she doesn’t like him that way is one of the most entitled behaviours I’ve seen from some women. What I find most troubling about the friendzone is the “user” type of woman who KNOWS the guy likes them, and uses them for the extra… Read more »
“Not everyone can simply deal with their romantic feelings and expecting a man to continue a friendship after knowing he likes her and she doesn’t like him that way is one of the most entitled behaviours I’ve seen from some women.” Not even asking to be friends is a good idea, then? Because i’ve seen guys mentioning women should be punched in the face for asking to be friends with a guy after making it clear she doesn’t want anything else, after all she is such a cooooold, baaad woman for being so insensitiiiive! “I think women really need to… Read more »
I think you missed the point. The “friend zone” is only a bad place if you want to date the girl but she wants to be “just friends.” That sucks, no two ways around it. That’s very different from having friends who are girls, which is pretty cool.
Perhaps I wasn’t clear in my writings…in no way am I saying to men, “hey, be happy just being friends” and telling them to settle for that when what they really want is romance. In that situation, if the man (or woman) can’t get over their romantic feelings toward the other there isn’t much chance of a true friendship. What I’m railing against is the notion that entering a friendship with an attractive person is “bad.” Like you’ve done yourself in. There have been multiple occasions in my life where I’ve been attracted to a friend (either at the outset… Read more »
“If you want to be friends with someone, be friends with them, if not, then move on. Not difficult.”
If only it were that easy. People in the habit of using others as placeholders are generally pretty skilled at keeping that dynamic going — not to mention, the second you cut it off you’re faced with the usual slew of “You just wanted to have sex with me and now you don’t wanna be friends because I won’t fuck you! You were just trying to use me!” accusations.
It is easy. If you feel used that way, and there isn’t even a sign of physical threat (and usually isn’t in this situation)… just walk away. Better to just move away, even if you get “wrongly accused”… you don’t want to remain “friends” with someone who is manipulating you and will say shit like that anyways (IF the person really used you and all).
Carlo, Being friends with an attractive woman is NOT bad. The friendzone is not necessarily bad IF YOU WANT TO BE THERE. I have lots of very lovely and attractive women as friends, some started off romantic and discovered that we didn’t click or we had other things going on at the time, and some were never romantic and I never wanted them to be. In each of those cases I made a voluntary decision to be friends. I wanted and chose to be friends and do not expect, hope, or wish for something romantic with them; I don’t want… Read more »
Carlo: There have been multiple occasions in my life where I’ve been attracted to a friend (either at the outset or become attracted during the friendship) and have stated my feelings, only to be let down
You could still have had sexual relationships with those men.
Women only face romantic rejection; rarely sexual rejection.
Its the FWB-zone for women essentially.
The dating sites and forums are full of women grieving that men dropped the Lets-Just-Be-Friends bomb AFTER they were already in a sexual relationship.
It seems we’re looking at the Friend Zone (FZ) in either a permanent sense, or a long-term sense, and I think that’s where the issue arises. I think I commented here before that in my social groupings, that the FZ can be those things, and yet none. It can, and often is (how remember, I’m referencing my experiences/friends’ experiences) a temporary place we put people in until we get to know them better. Initially, you might only know enough about someone to relegate them to the FZ, only to take them out when you know them better. I think there’s… Read more »
The dating world is rife with people who try too hard, who play games, who manipulate situations and people for an end result. All this at the cost of just being a good, down-to-earth person.
Unfortunately, many guys have learned that this is a necessary evil. Obviously, “just being” hasn’t worked out for them, so they deem it necessary to at times use underhanded tactics.
“Just being,” as a man, isn’t attractive to the overwhelming majority of women.
And so you LIE and MANIPULATE women just to get your thing… which is okay, because hey you will be going to get some (or at least you think you will) and that is more important than your integrity and morals… and of course, much more important than respecting women and their boundaries. Cool guys over here, as always. Still, most men get to date and find relationships while “just being” themselves in their lifetime. If many of you dudes find manipulating women to get what you want is okay, then don’t judge women for manipulating you to get what… Read more »
If romance (read sex) is meant to happen, it will happen. Yes, but only if the woman agrees. Women get to pick and choose certain men, with their very narrow views of attraction, only to seek out the very same type of guy they friend zoned 10 years ago. Why? Now they want marriage material. The other men were lovers and got the best she had to offer romantically. Having said such, I find zero honor and appreciation in being in the friend zone. I will pass. Amen. At best, you’ll get what? Maybe a hug, at best two, every… Read more »
YOU are one of those dudes who believe women are only good for sex (or do you expect your male friends to bang you as well? and don’t care about their “emotional baggage”?). Women are humans and all, and can be great friends who offer support and care and all. In fact, women are famous for caring way more for their their friends and showing much more affection. Daughters are the ones who take care of their parents the most when they get sick… that’s a female thing. Not all of those guys who whine about being friend-zoned are, but… Read more »
“But guys “settling” for friendship with women that they’d really rather be romantically involved with are signing up to live a very specific kind of Hell on Earth.”
_____________________________
And it almost never results in a friendship anyway. It is the equivalent of what our fathers called a Dear John letter.
Friendship with women that does not start out as a failed romance is entirely different.