Marcus Williams thinks it’s possible to appreciate a woman’s sexiness without objectifying her, even when you appreciate it out loud.
Growing up Catholic, I was taught that the only good sex was sex between married people who were open to the possibility of procreation. (See Section 12 of Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae if you think it was just my parish or parents getting the theology wrong.) Any sex or sexual desire that did not fit that purpose was a sin. Although my parents were more liberal than the church on most matters, that liberalism was did not extend to teaching me to embrace my sexuality as a positive thing for anything other than marriage and having kids. Most sex and sexual thoughts were things to feel guilty about.
One of the most mortifying experiences of my early teens was my dad walking in on me masturbating one day (in my own bedroom, without knocking) and adding shame to embarrassment, he took me for a drive, not long after, where he popped in a cassette with some guy lecturing about “Sexual Solitaire.” I don’t remember anything the lecturer said, but the clear message was that I should feel guilty about masturbating or wanting to masturbate.
I started doubting my faith in my late teens and abandoned it altogether by my early 20’s (for reasons having nothing to do with the Church’s teachings about sex). It took me a long time to shed most of my guilt about having sexual feelings, much less expressing them, even if only using my own body. Besides the Church’s influence, I was saddled with a strong fear of violating someone else with unwanted advances, due to having my own boundaries violated at the age of 13. It was with some difficulty that I learned to have a sexual thought without feeling guilty about it, and greater difficulty to express any thought out loud that wasn’t strictly platonic.
When I wrote “From Librarian to Eye Candy in 20 Seconds”, it was without a shred of guilt. In that story, I described a woman I found very attractive and sexy, but did little to express that fact other than invent a private nickname that initially stayed between me and my dad, and made her laugh while she was wearing a bikini. Not only did I avoid breaking any of the guidelines suggested in “You Can Get Laid Without Being a Jerk,” I didn’t even try to get laid.
It was disconcerting, then, to read comments about the “eye candy” piece that characterized me a woman-objectifying jerk. What had I done or written that I should feel guilty about?
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Erin wrote:
It seems a little de-evolved for GMP standards. Yada yada yada…”men like to oggle women, lets joke about how men in bed with their wives and gfs think about other women , aren’t men so wonderful because of it, i’m a guy, isn’t it cute when I call women “eye candy” and talk about little anadotes about how I objectfy women, aww shucks”, it’s the same tired old speach that the media sells day in and day out about men.
That yada yadas the most important part, as yada yadas are wont to do. If the yada yada’d part was included in the paraphrase, it would include that I’d said, “It’s bad to…” That leaves me in agreement with Erin, that it’s not cute or OK to joke in bed with wives and girlfriends about ogling other women.
I think Erin took offense at my use of the phrase “eye candy”, and though no one specifically mentioned the risque etymology of “20 Seconds” as being offensive, I suspect those two phrases in particular triggered some of the comments about objectifying women. If my regard for Tanya or other women went no further than such phrases, I’d have something to feel guilty about. I never treated Tanya like all she had going for her was being beautiful, but from a distance, there was nothing else to know about her. I can’t notice beauty, and then think, “OK, I’m going to ignore that while I acquaint myself with the whole person, and then I’ll let beauty back into the equation.”
I’ve outgrown the guilt that says just thinking about a woman in a sexy way is a bad thing. I never had to outgrow a belief that women are only good for sex because I never believed that in the first place. When a man thinks a woman is sexy, that does not render him blind and insensitive to her many other qualities, so the more important test for objectifying behavior is how he acts (or chooses not to) around a woman he thinks is sexy.
Perhaps some readers were reading between the lines and assuming I left out details they’d object to, so let me point out some of the things I didn’t do to Tanya:
- I never thought of her or treated her as merely an object for my gratification.
- I did not corner her, chase her, or stalk her.
- When circumstances brought us close enough together to engage her in conversation, I made her laugh. Those circumstances were not manipulated, because I had no idea she’d be chaperoning that snorkeling tour until I showed up for it.
- When I finally made a playful, lightly flirtatious comment about her appearance, she was wearing a bikini. We were also in an open space with many other people around.
- I did not ignore any signs of discomfort, and would have stopped my occasional comments and sneaking underwater glances if I had.
- I never copped a feel or otherwise touched her while trying to pretend it was an accident.
- I did not go up to her like a drooling idiot to tell her she was a hot piece of eye candy that I’d nicknamed “20 Seconds.”
- I didn’t cross any potentially creepy age-difference lines. She was less then 10 years younger than me, and well past “barely legal.”
- I never propositioned her for sex.
In sum, I did not treat her like a sex object. I found her pretty and even attractive, but being too shy to try to get to know her better, I enjoyed her from a distance without demeaning or disrespecting her.
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Another commenter, “R” wrote:
Ugh, this was pretty disappointing actually. I didn’t expect to read it on the Good Men Project! It doesn’t sound much different from a writer in Maxim congratulating himself on being subtle and classy when really he’s doing all the same objectifying but just a bit more inside his head than other dudes. While keeping it inside your head does do a favor to all the women (and men) who don’t have to hear it expressed, that benefit is kind of mitigated by eventually reading it online anyway.
In retrospect, I guess I shouldn’t have hung out in the lobby calling her “20 Seconds” to everyone within earshot and published my story in the daily shipboard bulletin after the snorkel tour so everyone would know how hot I thought she looked in a bikini. Oh wait—I didn’t do any of that.
“R” also wrote:
The article did NOT really describe you treating this woman as anything “more than” someone you thought was pretty. The story is built around you contemplating how hot she probably was underneath her professional “disguise,” and agonizing about how to convey your opinion to her. I wonder why it was so important that she know your opinion about her appearance, anyhow?
I was a guest on a cruise ship who thought a crew member was pretty, even in her uniform. (She wasn’t the only one.) Noticing beauty or sexiness is not a conscious act—it’s inevitable. What I do about that impression is not inevitable, and in Tanya’s case, I did what I usually do: kept it to myself. There was no agonizing over how to convey my opinion to her, nor any assumption that it was important that she know. When luck put me on a tour with her in a bikini, I made her laugh. Knock me for wanting her to think I was funny if you like, but if anything was important to me, as evidenced by how we interacted, it was that I not be perceived as just a guy telling her she was hot.
My first joke was about the tattoo in the small of her back, but it’s not like I spied it while she was leaning down in her regular work uniform and went out of my way to point it out. I also joked about stingrays, other passengers, and whatever came to mind, so there was “more than” me commenting on her appearance. She encouraged this interaction by laughing and making jokes of her own, which only made her more attractive. I won’t lie—I enjoyed being close to a beautiful woman in a bikini. But, at no point did I treat her as nothing more than a hot body, either in my head, or out loud.
If Tanya was to stumble onto this article and be embarrassed or insulted by it, I would feel bad and apologize, but I’m reasonably confident that’s not going to happen. I didn’t include personally identifying information and several years have passed since our encounter.
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There are so many feminist themes and causes that I agree with and support, but the most alienating theme I run into is that men (and therefore, me) are jerks for wanting sex. It’s not all feminists who say that, but it feels like any time I see a discussion about a man acknowledging or expressing his sexuality, there will be voices in that discussion calling him a jerk for it. No level of sexual desire is safe from criticism, because just thinking about a woman in a sexy way is enough to objectify her and deny every other quality that she might possess. It’s best not to do anything with those thoughts, but even then, don’t admit to having them, because that’s objectifying, too.
Sexual thoughts: bad.
Sexual talk (or writing): admitting you’re bad.
Actual sex: good men don’t go there, or want to.
It’s almost enough to make me yearn for the sex-is-fun liberalism of the Catholic church.
—Photo by Stephen Sheffield
I’m curious about the wording on a line. What makes it more acceptable to be flirtatious because she’s in a bikini compared to her uniform? I’m not annoyed by it, I’m interested in the wording. Especially because I thought of something related when reading it, the way that women are blamed for being assaulted because of their clothing, in wearing short skirts and low cut necklines. It’s not on the same level but the point I am trying to understand is that clothes appear to be important in judging to see if a woman is interested in talking or flirting… Read more »
I think there are many men that have, for some reason or another, developed this idea that respect somehow excludes sexual attraction or desire, or makes it shameful. This isn’t something men have developed, it is something which are imprinted on men by society.First by puritanical and victorian ideals and later added on by feminists discourse on objectification. And while I appreciate that women have to deal with disrespectful and unwanted advances, the men that are making those advances aren’t the same men that are thinking about these issues. It is fair to not expect and not tolerate disrespectful advances.… Read more »
I really have to applaud this article. I think there are many men that have, for some reason or another, developed this idea that respect somehow excludes sexual attraction or desire, or makes it shameful. It’s a idea that doesn’t really stand to reason, but can readily hide in preconceived or unexamined thoughts. Certainly, when we express these desires, we need to be respectful, and consider the current context / situation. But the neither the attraction nor expressing it is inherently a bad thing. And while I appreciate that women have to deal with disrespectful and unwanted advances, the men… Read more »
I have been noticing a lot of comments, not only in this particular article, but in others that have comments about the male writers here objectifying women. I am starting to think that either women are misunderstanding men discussing their attractiveness about another women or misunderstand what objectifying means. Also, a compliment is sometimes just a compliment. We compliment music, art, and movies as beautiful, so why not each other? I have had many different people compliment my attractiveness. I can usually tell who is objectifying me, while others are genuinely stating I’m attractive without other intentions. Usually actions and… Read more »
Amen to that. I can be captivated for a while by a woman’s beauty but I still would like to get to know her, hope that we have similar interests or can get along great at least. I recently photographed a very beautiful model and I found myself first taken back by her beauty but then the intrigue about HER kicked in, during the shoot we talked and I got to know her more and I was very impressed (all the while I was learning new techniques, etc as I am a photography student). What really stood out was how… Read more »
These is a great article. I always felt bad for thinking about women in a sexual way until about a couple days ago until I realized that there’s really no fundamental disconnect between men and women. We both enjoy sex and sexy things and it’s not wrong for either a man or a woman to feel that way. So long as you are respectful of your partner and mindful of their enjoyment as well as yours and their boundaries, there is no reason to feel bad. And I don’t feel bad even after engaging in sexual activity, whereas I used… Read more »
As a woman, I feel like sometimes being defensive toward being objectified can get in the way of either a relationship or even just a conversation with an overall good guy. I mean, my boyfriend tells me I’m sexy/he likes my ass, etc. all the time. But I know he respects my intelligence. We have intellectual conversations all the time, and he really appreciates that I am a good student and have stuff going for me in my school/career life. For me, though, I am used to being recognized for my intelligence. I have always been the “smart one”- I… Read more »
Good point, Anonymous Male. It’s also difficult to draw the line between recognizing beauty, being honest about sexuality, and objectifying people. It’s something all genders need to work on identifying. Both men and women go into fits when the other gender tries to describe what turns them on. Sometimes it’s legitimate anger, such as when certain traits are overblown by the media–whether it’s the photoshopped magazine or exaggerated video game girl standard, or or some one dimensional prince in a Disney movie or douchey romantic comedy hero. Other times, it’s just silly–such as when women get offended if a guy… Read more »
Sorry for the weird grammar in that last sentence…I think I started typing the it in one way, and then changed my mind. <..>
All excellent points.
A joke about the Rules of Attraction: A kid and his favorite Uncle are walking home from school. The kid asked “Uncle Bob I like this Girl, how do I get her to notice me” -Well Kiddo, approaching a young lady is like driving a car…You don’t wanna just crash into her by being all flashy, Rude & show-offy.. You want to respect her personal space. So What-cha do is try your best to be a courteous driver. Observing all her traffic signals, Staying in your lain and before you Know it, She’ll will stop and tell you What a… Read more »
In talking about objectification, almost all of the discussion has been about looks. I wonder if it’s the same or different to objectify someone based on other “superficial” attributes: voice, accent, scent, etc. Or, are those things deeper and more fundamental than appearance somehow? I’m thinking that a great piece for the GMP would be from the point of view of a blind man. When a man who is attracted to women but can’t see women makes his way through the world, does he objectify women to the same degree that sighted men do? Or, is he more able to… Read more »
Now *those* are some thoughtful ideas. I know we all respond to a lot of subconscious cues from people such as tone of voice, facial expression, body language, scent, etc. and those things influence our idea of sexual attraction. And it’s hard to say to what extent some of those other things come into play because the visual thing is so overwhelmingly emphasized. But you’re probably right – if everyone was blind, they’d probably fixate on other equally superficial stuff. 🙂 And yes, that would feel like objectification if people fixated on it as much as they do about looks.… Read more »
LF, I think you have a good workable distinction about where attraction ends and objectification begins – when it becomes the only subject and the other person just can’t get past it and after spending time together he/she has not come any closer to noticing anything else about you. When the first thing remains the only thing, you might say. I wonder if maybe a blind guy experiences a less sexualized world than a sighted guy because there’s less ‘bombardment’ by visual input. No billboards, magazine covers, suggestive clothing, etc. Then again, maybe it’s just as sexual a life, just… Read more »
I’d tend to agree with you about a blind guy getting less bombardment by visual input. That’s a pretty big deal I think. And again, it’s not so much sexualization itself that is a “problem,” it’s the particular *kind* of sexualization we have in modern culture. Everyone is portrayed as being in a sexually heightened and available state ALL THE TIME. Not to mention a “perfected” state thanks to airbrushing and makeup and plastic surgery. Everyone’s entitled to a “perfect” person, who’s always ready for action, any time they want. I can’t help but think a blind person couldn’t possibly… Read more »
A couple of things: 1) “almost all of the discussion has been about looks” – Not really; it sounds this way primarily because he has to go into so much detail defending himself, but this is primarily because of what OTHER people criticize him about, which is his noticing the looks… this says more about THEIR hangups than his. 2) you brought up “same or different” in terms of objectifying someone; you mentioned “superficial” qualities and asked how a blind person’s experience of not seeing relates to the situation. I think it IS different, but you are looking in the… Read more »
I do have to disagree about the status thing too, at least on my end. I can’t speak for all women, but I’m about as hot as it gets for a non-celeb (my friends have gotten annoyed that whenever I enter a room–especially if dressed up–everyone looks my way), and I’m with a guy who’s broke, very nerdy, and chubby. My sister is gorgeous, has an incredible degree and job, and is in a very long term relationship with a short, already balding guy who makes MUCH less money that she does. We both had plenty of choices (not all… Read more »
This has been a very interesting discussion. Thanks to everyone who has contributed. I wish I could respond to every comment, but they’re going too fast for me to keep up with replies, so I’ll try to hit on some recurring themes. A lot of the disagreement appears to stem from two different senses of the word “primary” being used interchangeably. It can mean “first” and it can mean “most important”. It doesn’t really say anything about “to the exclusion of all other characteristics”, but that seems to be getting read into it. Just because a particular quality can be… Read more »
“A guy can’t will himself into an erotic fever over a woman he does not find sexually appealing.” That’s exactly what I was trying to comment on, but maybe I didn’t word it well. I woman can’t do that either and no amount of money, niceness, negging, or body building can. William was saying that there are women he can respect and like but only have sex with if desperate. That stands for women as well. You’re not attracted to the people you’re not attracted to and vice versa. Is it ethical to use someone for sex when you’re not… Read more »
I can’t just call up any man I respect and like to have sex with at any time, either, there are societal boundaries against that. Men were saying that there are women who are good people, but that they’d only have sex with in desperation because they couldn’t get anyone hotter. Women do this too. The options aren’t available for all women either–just for the hot or aggressive ones.
How can you people even think about casual sex when you are almost certain to pick up HPV, herpes, and risk getting HIV? You have to suit up in plastic to have sex now, don’t touch any skin in your intimate parts, and don’t exchange any fluids. What is the freaking point of casual sex? That is the true stupidity in this day and age. I don’t see anyone here considering the fact that casual sex is just suicidal. Now call me sex-negative. Ho hum.
Just jerk off and leave the women alone, okay?
Does that mean in the 1960’s macho aholes were right when they told women to keep their legs closed? Casual sex necessitates that the women consented too. Why only the shaming of men for wanting sex? There are quite a lot of women who don’t feel like you do: they love men, they love being with men, and they love effing men. There is absolutely nothing wrong if you want to live a life free of male companionship. But, don’t bother shaming other men (or by extension other women) for not sharing your choice. Shaming/forbiddding doesn’t work. As any parent… Read more »
Where are you getting “shaming” out of my comments? I do love men, I loved being with a couple of men, and I used to love fucking those men. I just don’t love assholes. The problem is that most men really are assholes, or lost in fantasy about women, or for whatever reason see women as “other” and “mysterious” and either put them up on a pedestal or stomp them down. (That’s the madonna/whore complex that governs in the U.S.) Men cannot leave us alone when we want to be left alone. They cannot be responsive to women as human… Read more »
TIOA shames:
“Just jerk off and leave the women alone, okay?”
Unfortunately, women are going to continue to be bothered by the come-ons of men (both civil and rude from immature men). This will continue to be the case as long as the OVERWHELMING majority of women continue to embrace the passive role and refuse to initiate.
I agree that many men need to grow up, but so do many women.
John D –
Has it ever occurred to you that the women who “refuse to initiate” simply don’t want to interact with men at all? Get it through your head: a lot of women DON’T WANT TO BE IN SEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS WITH MEN. It isn’t shaming, it isn’t a hatred of men – it is simply a choice.
Really? Is that why I continue to see mountains of dripping testimony (on this site and others) about the less than beautiful women crying because men never ask them out? Women going childless because they don’t get approached (or at least not by family-minded men)?
TIOA says:
It isn’t sha”ming, it isn’t a hatred of men – it is simply a choice.”
And I respect your choice, why is it so hard for you to give men and women the same courtesy?
How am I depriving anyone of “choice”? I am pointing out facts regarding some truly horrible and epidemic diseases, and facts about hostile behavior directed against women by men.
Am I somehow spoiling your fantasies by speaking my mind and experience? If so, then — too bad.
Whoa whoa, Tired…I don’t agree with most of what John D. says in a lot of threads, but can you please stop with the hostility? If you’re not sexually attracted to men, that’s your choice and no one should judge you for it. It doesn’t mean that you have to shame men or other women for having sexual desires.
Marcus and all, I do understand that looks alone are not the basis for a guy wanting to form a relationship, and that no matter how attractive a woman is, a good man will not continue a relationship with her if she doesn’t have other good qualities that make her a worthy partner (although I’ve certainly seen a lot of men fall for women who are obviously using their sexuality to manipulate men, and are not very good people, but the men don’t see it because they’re blinded by the woman’s looks… just as some of the men here have… Read more »
If this conversation could happen in real life, would it change the way you look at women at all? And if it would, why don’t you change now? No, because: 1. I’ve had friends who were all those things without the sexy, and they were great friends, but it didn’t lead to mutual sexual interest. 2. I do not need to change the way I look at women. There is nothing wrong with finding a woman sexually attractive. There is something wrong with making her uncomfortable or persisting in unwanted attention, both of which I’ve made it a lifelong goal… Read more »
Well I think that’s cool that you met your wife online. And #4 made me LOL. 😀
I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with finding a woman sexually attractive. You keep coming back to that, and it has really nothing to do with what I’m saying.
Regarding #1 – you honestly can’t even imagine the *possibility* that a woman could turn out to be more attractive to you once you get to know her a little than she is on your very first impression?
Actually you’ve already answered my last question – obviously that IS a possibility for you, because you said it’s not likely you would have noticed your wife had you met in person before meeting online. But of course, when you did meet her there obviously *was* sexual attraction. How many women do you suppose guys overlook in that way, because they aren’t making a point of being attentive to women who maybe aren’t so noticeable on first impression? That’s what I meant by changing the way you look at women. It’s not like I’m saying to stop looking at the… Read more »
How many women do you suppose guys overlook in that way, because they aren’t making a point of being attentive to women who maybe aren’t so noticeable on first impression? I’d guess it’s roughly the same as the number of men who get overlooked by women who don’t make it a point of being attentive after a nondescript first impression. If we’re talking proportions and not absolute numbers, I bet it also applies to the number of gay women overlooked by other gay women, or gay men overlooked by other gay men, whenever someone’s attraction criteria aren’t triggered on that… Read more »
Yeah, you could be right, and it doesn’t matter for you, since you’re married now anyway. So feel free to admire sexy women from afar. 😀 But in general, for single people I think we could all do ourselves and each other a favor by making a point of noticing people you otherwise might overlook. I think it’s a cool thing to do anyway. Making someone feel good about themselves by noticing and talking to them, even if just for a few minutes, can rarely hurt anything – maybe you’ll make a friend, maybe more than a friend, or maybe… Read more »
LF writes: “But can’t we all agree that we’d all be better off if “sexually attractive” includes a larger group of people?” Sure. Lets all agree to that. While we’re at it, lets all agree that Santa Claus is coming this Christmas. Agreeing to a wrong idea doesn’t make it true, or even a good plan. LF, your commentary appears to persist in pushing the idea that if men just behaved more like women when it comes to getting turned on things would be so much better. It just ain’t so, and men don’t work that way. Now go ahead… Read more »
Sure, but then why do so many men on here complain that women only get turned on by jerks? It’s not true–I’ve been attracted to guys on on the entirety of the nice guy-jerk spectrum, and it’s not as black and white as it seems to be to a lot of ‘nice’ guys. Still–if it’s OK that men are just attracted to certain traits, can’t we also then let women be attracted to the guys they just find sexy and make them wet? Why do so many men on here try to justify not being attractive to women by demonizing… Read more »
I agree that such an attitude is one-sided an unfair. But I also note that many such men have lived their whole lives on the short end of such a stick, constantly being told that women’s standards and expectations ARE reasonable while their own proclivities are demonized and dismissed.
Turnabout may not be productive in the long term, but it’s also not an unexpected reaction.
On behalf of a few sexy librarians I know, I must protest the implied contrast between being a librarian and being eye candy. Information is power, and power is sexy, so reference librarians are where it’s at, man.
I don’t think you did anything wrong, but I can see that for some people there’s something off-putting about the tone of your two pieces. There’s all this attention to the bad things that you weren’t doing, even a laundry list of all the offensive things that you could have done to this woman but didn’t. To some people that may come across as overly defensive, which makes them think about how easy it was for you to come up with all those other behaviors that you chose not to engage in. It sets the bar pretty low to say,… Read more »
I couldn’t quite tell what the purpose was of sharing that story about “20 seconds.” I have to confess something. I did not write “eye candy” specifically for GMP, so that’s probably why its purpose felt ambiguous. I updated it for GMP, but I wrote the original right after it happened, almost ten years ago. I thought it would fit here for two reasons: 1) Humor. I’ve read many good articles here, but hoped to bring a bit of lighter fare to mix things up; and 2) I thought it showed an example of a man noticing a sexy woman… Read more »
Marcus, I think you are confused about the criticism. I don’t think anyone criticized your behavior, which appears to be above reproach. Also, no one is criticizing you for feeling attracted to a hot looking woman. It was the tone of the article that was a little off-putting because as you describe it, “20 seconds” was nothing but an object of your sexual fantasies, like a porn star, and that’s fine as far as it goes (you are entitled to view her that way if you want), but then you pat yourself on the back and expect kudos for not… Read more »
Yup… my thoughts exactly, again.
Everything you guys are saying is legitimate. People find what they find attractive and we shouldn’t feel awful for fantasizing (both men and women look, and both genders fantasize, even within relationships). The thing is—a lot of men on this site DO have issues with the men to whom they perceive women are attracted, and they blame the women for it. Women only like money! Women only like good looking tall guys! Well, I have money, and women don’t like me so they must only like thugs! I’m good looking AND have money, what the hell is wrong with women—they… Read more »
If I was a comic book hero, that would be the superpower I’d want: any time I felt like some vagina that night, I could just call on some girls I respect and like and find attractive enough, and get it. I’m married now, so I’d even settle for that superpower with my wife.
Ditto. It must be nice to have that option, that CHOICE.
Too bad it’s not available to men.
The thing is….that’s exactly what William was talking about! He was saying there are some girls he can respect and like, but doesn’t find physically attractive and would only have sex with if desperate. I was just trying to say that that should be open for women too.
Copyfelt: Whine, whine, whine. Your hatred of women is palpable. Get one of those inflatable dolls. She won’t say no, you won’t have to consider her feelings, and you can just pound away at her until she pops.
It’s good to know that you find my posts so threatening that you’re compelled to reply to each one. Anything that pisses off a misandrist is progress!
Please understand that Tired doesn’t represent all women. :/ She’s clearly very bitter.
Oh, I’m well aware of that. I’m just puzzled why she’s wandering around a site devoted to men’s discussions, ordering men to “shut up” as if she were the arbiter of acceptable content.
I was having a discussion with a friend about what would be the most funny quasi-useful superpower. My favorite so far is to know in advance which lane will move the fastest in a traffic jam.
What bugs me about Objectification is that it just another way to shame male Sexuallity. I don’t want to be considered a social inempt mouth breather but what’s a guy to do when he sees an attractive lady!? Should he refuse to be attracted!? Is that even possible?
Y’all wonderful ladies of the GMP think that the Maddona/Whore paradigm is a pain please image having to deal with the Coward/Creep social backlash.
That reminds me of the other double-standard of approach: “If she’s attracted to the guy, it’s flirting. If she isn’t, it’s harrassment.”
(rolling eyes)
How many women have you stalked, Copyfelt? You are a classic jerk.
I don’t think guys need to “refuse to be attracted.” And I don’t think objectification has much to do with being ashamed of male sexuality. It can be a fine line between attraction and fixation though, and most attractive women get hit on far more often and more aggressively than they would like. It’s one thing to notice a woman and another thing to fixate on her at the expense of anyone else in the room. This is pretty common and it can creep women out. Sure, there are some women who are just full of themselves and seem to… Read more »
When you see an attractive lady, you are attracted to her. What you do next is the problem. Do you HAVE TO let her know she has big tits and you’d like to get your mitts on them? No. You can look and move on. And you can be subtle about looking so as not to let her know you are looking. Believe me, it is NOT flattering to be reminded several times per say that multiple men on the street would love to knock you down and fuck you because your body parts are appealing to them. Not all… Read more »
I know there is a social intelligence that men sacrifice when they approach women in a disrespectful manner. You have every right to feel devalued. The ones who do it know that there advances are coming from a place of self hate and not attraction.
Budman – it isn’t about shaming men for their sexuality. Sexuality is just fine. The problem is that men impose themselves on women inappropriately. For example, when I stand up to argue in court and the judge gives me a lingering look from head to toe and winks at me, that is inappropriate. When a woman is standing before a judge, he should keep his focus on the argument she makes, not his sexual attraction to her.
Every men wants a woman that he finds physically attractive.
If a man starts to meet woman the first thing he’s going to screen for the ones who are physically attractive to him, so that means the woman who aren’t attractive won’t even get a chance.
This should be obvious to both genders.
It is obvious, William. It’s also stupid.
LF, just because you don’t like something, that doesn’t make it stupid. A man cannot talk himself into getting turned on by a woman he finds unattractive. He can respect her, like her, and even love her, but he isn’t going to be lusting after her. We aren’t wired that way, and all the feminist rhetoric that says such behavior is ‘shallow’ isn’t going to change this evidently frustrating (for you anyway) aspect of men. I know – women aren’t like that. In my experience, feminine lust works a little differently. Try to understand that this difference doesn’t make it… Read more »
I think it IS better, because basically it means that you think men are “wired” to hurt women. Sooner or later, every woman, even is she is beautiful, is going to be hurt badly by this supposed wiring. Nor do I believe that it’s impossible for men to broaden their idea of what is attractive. It doesn’t happen overnight, and like I said elsewhere it takes some awareness that we are all being manipulated by the media and other images of what we’re supposed to think is sexy. This ends up hurting a lot of men as much as women,… Read more »
Dear, how old are you?
LOL… resorting to ad hominem, are you? 🙂 What does THAT have to do with anything?
Only curious, if you don’t want to answer, that’s fine. But I might suggest that you go back and read my posts again. Most of the commentary that you have been responding to, I never wrote (straw man 🙂 I never said ‘incredibly attractive’, nor did I say that a man’s preferences in terms of attractiveness stay the same, all the time, as you imply when you claim that lusting after an attractive woman means men are hard wired to hurt women. I know that beautiful women age, and to the good men who love them, the lust keeps right… Read more »
But it is ad hominem if you don’t respond to the actual point being made but instead respond with a question about the speaker. I didn’t say that men can “talk themselves” into lusting after a woman he finds more attractive, so I think it was you who were not reading the posts carefully. I went on to say specifically what I did mean, which is exactly what you said – that it is possible for men’s definition of attractiveness to change and broaden over time. I said that in the very post you responded to with the “how old… Read more »
OK – let me try a different tack . . . Say an enlightened man tells himself that heading over to hit on the hot brunette with the body by fisher is ‘shallow’ and decides to give the not particularly attractive (at least to him) woman standing alone by the jukebox a try. He chats her up, and finds her interesting, intelligent, quick witted and honest.. Long story short, they move forward, and in the flush of the first few weeks, things go swimmingly. And then the day comes when they are naked, she’s wound like an 8 day clock… Read more »
Like I said… I don’t expect that anyone would get together with someone they don’t find sexually attractive. I don’t expect anyone to pretend, or try to will himself into thinking someone is attractive. If that’s what you’re getting from my comments, I think you’re missing the point.
I never said that men will go after a woman he find MOST attractive. I said that no matter how low or high she is on the attractive scale, men will go after a woman they finds physically attractive. Some men won’t go after the woman they find MOST attractive because they believe she won’t be attracted to them, so they instead go for woman less attractive. You say this hurts woman but what about the hurt less attractive woman feel when they’re approached by men who’ve only done so because they feared being turned down by the more attractive… Read more »
No, I don’t think every man fits that category, and I don’t think it’s really about fear of getting ridiculed in most cases. It’s more about cultural conditioning. If you lived on a remote island where all the women looked very different from how they look in our culture, your idea of what is attractive would be different. That goes for all of us. When we have certain images and fashion shoved in our faces every day, it’s hard not to be subconsciously influenced by that unless you put some effort into it. And yeah, of course it hurts less… Read more »
Something a man will go after less attractive woman if she has better qualities, he will find her attractive just not as attractive as other woman.
Unless a man is very desperate he will not go after a woman he has no physical attraction for.
William, I’m not so sure about that. I think in many ways men who screen potential mates for beauty may be missing out on a very fulfilling experience. I happen to find personality very important (if we’re talking about long term relationships). I think the confusion among women is that they believe men screen for only the “hottest” women like 9’s and 10’s. Frankly, only 1 in 30 men have the luxury to screen like that. I don’t have a basis to know, but I would assume the vast majority would screen for 6’s and highers. I have been married… Read more »
LF:
Doesn’t that kind of go back to women initiating? If we would like people to break tradition, then that is just as valid a tradition to start breaking as any other. (and this isn’t about you personally, but figuratively about women in general, just as you were speaking about men)
If you expect more from men that’s fine. But, as a society I think it’s time to start expecting more from women too.
Why should dating men be brought into 2011 and be stuck with dating women equivalent to 1910?
I don’t think it’s entirely accurate to say that men don’t value other characteristics of women. I think a great majority of men would rather have a woman who is a 6 or 7 but has other great characteristics (at least when talking about LTR’s) than a woman who is a 9 or 10 but horrible deficient in redeeming characteristics. I think the issue is IMMATURE men letting their libido be THEIR ONLY GUIDE of choosing mates (just as many immature women are more likely to choose some1 who is egotistical or dysfunctional confusing it with confidence). The issue is… Read more »
Well unfortunately, “immature” would describe a lot of people, even ones you’d otherwise think were smart enough to know better.
I also don’t think men are wired this way because I met my fiance on-line, and he had no idea what I looked like. It was a single, silly joke on a social website that got his attention, and we were dating for two months and calling each other before he even saw a picture of me. You can argue all you want that if the pic of me were actually ugly, he would have dumped me, but it WAS my personality that attracted him to me–not looks.
I met my wife the same way. I knew her only through participating on a discussion board we were both active on (not a dating board) for several months before seeing so much as a picture, and almost a year before we met in person. I was already attracted by the time we met, *but* if I didn’t also feel some physical spark when we met (and vice versa) I don’t think it would have evolved into more than friendship. My encounter with Tanya occurred within that same period of time that I was getting to know my future wife,… Read more »
But to go along with my earlier post further down the thread Marcus… suppose the situation were reversed, and you didn’t meet your wife online, but in person. Maybe you just spotted her in the grocery store or something, and she was just wearing jeans and a big T shirt and not trying to be sexy at all. Additionally, since she’s never met you, she doesn’t yet have the trust and confidence to present herself to you as she really is. Do you think you would still have noticed her? By the time you met in real life, she knew… Read more »
No, I probably wouldn’t have noticed her and she probably wouldn’t have noticed me. Lucky for me, we met on the interwebs.
I have to ask: How does one date someone for 2 months w/o knowing what the person they are dating looks like?
It was your personality that attracted him FIRST, your looks simply sealed the deal.
When he was envisioning how you looked, he saw someone he’d be physically attracted to.
Call it any name you like, if that makes you feel better or supplements your daily blue pill but RED PILL ALERT it does not make it any less true!
Biologically humans are hardwired to respond to intangible cues – visual, tactile, olfactory and auditory to their environment before intellect comes into play.
At my ripe old age, I’ve come to the conclusion that the times I’ve slept with women I didn’t want a relationship with, it’s been a mistake. Sex is loaded emotionally for me, and the non-emotional times were meh.
Me too, Henry. I feel very lost in the “hookup culture” and I don’t doubt there are men who do too.
railmeat, well in fact that is exactly what I think is ridiculous – that anyone of either gender needs to feel trapped in these ridiculous stereotypes. Obviously, the stereotypes hurt both genders, and yet most of us seem to insist that this is “just the way men and women are” as if people can’t grow beyond that. I, personally, don’t give a rat’s ass about so call “high status” men, and never have. I care that a guy is intelligent, caring, creative, and is willing to stand up for what he believes in. I’d like it if he takes care… Read more »
Jill, you might be surprised to learn that were I to read a story like that (objectifying a man regarding his wealth) it would most certainly NOT bother me. Women look for, and are frequently attracted to, high status men. Money typically equates to status. Me on the other hand? I’d pick ’20 seconds’ every time. Men and women are *different*. Women, to most men, are valued not primarily for their appearance, but are primarily valued *initially* for their appearance. This won’t be fixed by training men to see more in a woman beyond her hot body, for the good… Read more »
I suspect you may be in the minority on that. From reading comments on this website, many men ARE very sensitive about being objectified by women. They complain about women being “hypergamous” gold diggers, wanting only high status men, rejecting “nice guys” and so on, while seeing no problem with their own tendency to judge women based solely on physical attractiveness. So, my comment was aimed in that direction….
It’s the inequality and the reaction to it you’re seeing, Jill. Men are perfectly aware that women judge men by their status, just as men initially judge women by their looks. So why is only one of those activities labeled “objectification” if both are EQUALLY shallow?
Actually, I agree with you, women can be just as shallow and frequently objectify men based on status or money. But, some men seem to complain a lot about women rejecting them for those “bad” reasons, while arguing that their own preference for “hot” women is natural, out of their control, and therefore unobjectionable. So, maybe what I’m saying is that we should all stop being hypocrites. Again, I’m not berating men for having preferences or I definitely not saying that being sexually attracted to women is “bad,” but the author of the original article shouldn’t be surprised if some… Read more »
Yeah, that’s exactly it – it’s not as if we don’t all know there are shallow/narcissistic women out there too. But 1) I was commenting on this specific article, and 2) since I’m not one of those people who judges men based on wealth or status, I feel like I can comment on this without being a hypocrite. 😉
Also, copyleft, I think there’s at least more of a chance that a “high status” man might have achieved his status via something substantial than a woman having done something substantial to achieve her beauty. So it’s not objectification if, say, I’m attracted to a guy because he’s very talented at something and enjoys a certain amount of status for it (notice I didn’t say wealth – not everyone who’s talented becomes wealthy as a result). What does a woman do to become beautiful? Chances are she was born that way, and if not then she’s encouraged to spend all… Read more »
LF what about these same guys before they had their status? When they were brilliant college students on a shoe-string budget, or amazing (but undiscovered) artist, and so forth? If the characteristics themselves were the attraction, then these high-achieving men would be drowning in women WHILE building their status (for whatever achievements) rather than AFTER achieving the status? I think both male and female attraction markers can lead to problems (PARTICULARLY when immature men or women use attraction as their SOLE guiding principle of who they date/mate). However, whatever evolutionary basis women may have once had for choosing confident men… Read more »
Like I’ve already said, I totally agree that if there’s no substance behind the “confidence” then it’s stupid. And there are plenty of shallow, narcissistic women out there who make terrible decisions about men’s character. Am I being clear about that? I agree with you! And that’s why I make sure not to make those kinds of decisions. As I’ve also said, I usually date guys who make less money than I do – I tend like artists, musicians, writers, professors, scientists – guys with ambitions that are personally meaningful to them but probably are never going to lead to… Read more »
LF: 1st: kudos to you for your very mature stance on dating. You sound very reasonable in your goals. 2nd: In terms of self-reflection for men, I see your point. Really what you’re talking about is like the head versus the heart. It reminds me of Look Who’s Talking where the mother wants to pick a lover who is the best provider since she is an unwed mother. However, at some point in the movie she realizes that she has to pick a lover that is also going to make herself happy. While very nearly all men may look at… Read more »
It seems to me what you’re really talking about is experience. The honest truth is it takes experience and wisdom to over-ride our libido with our brains. When we do learn to do that, we often find our lives become a heck of a lot easier. But, you’ve kind of polluted the issue by beating men up based on attraction, but not discussing the ultimate decisions men make in mates. Just as you wised up, men do too eventually. Although, I will give the admission that it seems to take men longer to wise up and stop thinking with their… Read more »
Of course to play the other side of the coin to the comment I just made: Many younger men (these days) may not be looking for LTR. I have been reading a lot of articles that state the latest generation of 20-somethings are showing a much less stance of settling down. Most seem content to perpetually date well into their late 30’s. For these men in perpetual date mode, it may very well be a case that they are only going to go after the best-looking blonde on the beach, since they have no LTR aspirations. I have to say:… Read more »
Thanks for the thoughtful post John. I wish I could say that more men wised up, but that hasn’t been my experience. A lot of them also go nuts and lose their minds again when they hit middle age, even if they get some kind of clue in their 30s. Not to say that I don’t know ANY guys who’ve wised up, or any that are happily married to women who might have gained a few pounds in childbirth or whatever, and they don’t care. But enough guys I know have cheated on or ditched their wives or LTRs for… Read more »
“And you know what? Not even deep down, in my heart of hearts, am I anymore attracted to the handsome jerk.” I have to say that I am not wired that way. I CAN over-ride my libido with my mind, but I cannot re-write what I find attractive. If you were a man, I would say that you are repressing your urges. Even knowing a very voluptuous & beautiful woman was a cretin, there would still be an animal part of my brain that would want to check out her body/face. Maybe the best women can hope for is that… Read more »
Sorry, Copyleft. Not all women choose men for their money and status. I never did.
I would be offended at such a story, but I wouldn’t be very surprised.
I don’t doubt there are women with that kind of attitude. But I don’t think you or I would consider them very good people. Neither Jill nor I nor any other woman here has been defending that kind of behavior, and there are plenty of women who are able to overcome this tendency or just don’t have it in the first place. I would never consider anyone who judges men by wealth or status to be a “good woman.” But I don’t see any men here who are willing to say that “screening” women based on looks is in any… Read more »
I don’t think “screening” is necessarily bad for either sex when done maturely. I think that immature people choosing their mates based SOLELY upon libido (how much the person supplies the attraction markers regardless of redeeming qualities)
I agree that it is a hugely wasteful and detrimental way for men and women to navigate dating. Strengthening marriage is one way to reverse things, but the shared parenting movement is getting lots of resistance: from governmental bureaucracies, divorce lawyers and from feminists.
Oh well.
I think men are pretty pathetic for being governed by their penises and thinking that’s okay. You have no idea how boring you are.
Thank you for that constructive contribution to the discussion. Do you have any more tips for men on how to shut up on the Good Men Project website?
Like LF, I had a vaguely negative reaction to the original article as well, along the line of, “oh, a guy wants to get to know the hot girl in a bikini. How revolutionary.” It’s not about blaming men for having sexual thoughts, it’s just kind of depressing to be remided, yet again, that women really are valued primarily for our appearance. As LF said, yes, of course men want a woman who has a great personality and all that, but she’d better look good in a bikini too. I’m not saying men should pursue women they aren’t attracted to… Read more »
Jill, yes EXACTLY.
But, you make that point as if women DON’T do that. A good portion of women certainly DO screen based upon wealth and status (see the link I posted above). Both trends a narcissistic. But, I have seen WAY WAAAAAY more shaming of men for screening mates based on beauty, than I ever have shaming of women screening based on wealth. It’s funny, I just finished watching a Steve Byrnes concert on netflix. In his routine he details why their are no fashion magazines for men. Because there are only two things for men: hair & money. He states (in… Read more »
I don’t think anybody’s said that. I think Marcus wondered why some women were put off by the tone of his article and we answered him. It doesn’t mean that women are the only ones getting screwed and I don’t know why you have to play this “me too” game about it. It was addressing a specific situation. If somebody writes an article about female gold-diggers I’ll certainly comment and say that I think that is bad. If somebody writes an article saying that stay at home dads get little respect I’ll be the first to agree and feel badly… Read more »
I’m not playing a “me too” game. I’m pointing out the fact that if we are to resolve gender issues, then we need to talk about both genders. simple despite it’s title tgmp is a very liberal feminist inspired websight. The concept of “a good woman” needs to be brought up specifically because nobody is bringing it up. While the dating world is unfair to women, it is also unfair to men. If will continue to be unfair to both sexes unless both sexes mature. If men evolve from their immature mating choices and women don’t in 1 generation we’ll… Read more »
I agree. But actually there are tons of books, web sites and support groups for women that deal with the issue of how to become a “good woman”, how to avoid stereotypes, how to improve one’s self confidence, how to discern a good man from a raging asshole and not put up with the latter, and so on. There are relatively few places where men try to tackle those issues. So don’t mistake the lack of commentary here for lack of awareness.
As compared to the paltry amount of dating information for men (if you discount the “be respectful” variant which is a long list of don’ts and almost NO “how to’s”).
Ohhhhh lawdy. Lawdy lawdy lawdy. I actually feel kind of apologetic that this article even needed to be written. Of course, then I remembered the world we live in. And then I got all irritated again about how we pretend like we’re not all sexual beings who see one another as sexual beings and how I wish that was all OK . Regardless of gender. Further, I wish that women would remember that, yes, being a feminist isn’t about blaming men – but it’s also about remembering the Patriarchy (ahhh the Patriarchy) can be confining to them, too. When we… Read more »
Hi 5, the existence of sexuality doesn’t have to mean sexuality is all the man/woman thinks about and I think society has believed a stereotype way too much assuming men don’t actually see the women they’re staring at. Unless we can mindread others, we cannot know their true intention. A man looking at a beautiful woman might look like he’s only interested in sex but in his head he might be thinking of a way to introduce himself to strike the possibility of a relationship in hopes for finding a life partner, and considering how many marriages and families happen… Read more »
Jun, in a way it doesn’t matter whether the guy is thinking about having a relationship or not. In fact, to my mind it’s easier to understand why someone would want to limit themselves to the most attractive people if all they’re looking for is a quick hookup. But how likely is it that the person who is the most compatible with you as a life partner (even the most sexually compatible) also happens to be the hottest person in the room? And what effect is it likely to have on your long term relationship if that is the basis… Read more »
LF: I see it more as screening potential mates. The fact that men screen their partners for beauty isn’t any different than women screening on wealth or status or charmingness. In fact since women are in a position as choosers (i.e. men approach & women either decline or accept their interest) I would say that women do just as much screening as men and for just as narcissistic reasons. In my internet travel of articles I have come across (not many but) quite a few articles detailing how very successful women have a hard time finding a mate, because all… Read more »
Hey, firefighters make a ton of money, and they are hunky! 🙂
Chuckle
Firefighters are also manwhores. Be prepared to get a disease of you go for that eye candy.
Tired of it all, you need to lighten up, with all due respect.
Jill – Actually, I don’t need to “lighten up.” Maybe you have met some nice guys in your time on this planet, or you have managed not to be sexually assaulted, harassed, stalked and generally attacked by men. I have suffered all of the above, and I am sick of it. Walk a mile in my shoes and then you can lecture me.
Well John, like I’ve said elsewhere it’s not that I don’t agree that women also make bad choices, but this particular article wasn’t about that. It was about a specific instance where a man was questioning what was so wrong about his own behavior. In any case, I personally do “take one for the team” as I’ve said – in fact I’ve only ever been in one relationship where the guy made more money than I did, and I actually felt a little weird about it. I was very worried that he might perceive me as a gold digger and… Read more »
LF: I commend your sensibility. Like I said down-thread. I think this is really about experience. Head versus heart. I’m not going to say how you MUST feel, but I can tell you how it has worked for me & some of my friends (I will be 45 next month). Learning to over-ride your libido and look at things other than how turned on the person makes you takes experience and wisdom. But, from my experience a person can’t SHUT OFF what they are attracted to, they just make wiser decisions bring in other relevant factors besides libido. I would… Read more »
I don’t think that what happened to me was really consciously “shutting off” something I used to be attracted to. I had awareness that what attracted me immediately wasn’t necessarily doing me any good, and I tried to make a point of noticing other guys whom I liked personally and yet were maybe more quiet or shy and not coming off like the alpha male idiot. And I did, in fact, find that a lot of those guys had qualities, even physical qualities, that were sexually attractive to me – it just took a little while before I noticed them.… Read more »
It makes me wonder about the history of social interaction between the sexes. When I say this I’m thinking of the (pointer sisters) “he’s so shy”. From what I have read rebels and aholes used to be social pariahs. If you watch “rebel w/out a cause” James Dean’s character was actually a tormented soul. In the age of much lesser female independence and lack of birth control, rebels and aholes did NOT commandeer female companionship. It’s interesting, because while society may have been repressive, it also seems that there was a lot of maturity and people had a much greater… Read more »
Totally agree, and I’d go so far as to say that people’s tastes are actually different depending on the type of society in which they are raised, and what its expectations are. It used to be *expected* that people would act honorably during courtship. If a guy asked a girl out, he knew he wasn’t going to get laid, and that changed the dynamic of dates considerably. The couple had to actually enjoy each other’s company, and probably meet each other’s parents sooner than later (if the families didn’t already know each other). Jerks found it hard to gain much… Read more »
The cougar thing is a lie. I don’t know any women over the age of 50 or so who chase men, or who are even interested in sex anymore. The cougar lie sells on talk shows and makes for “fun” articles in popular magazines. It also gets 60-year-olds like me hit on by younger men who think the old ladies might know some kinky sex tricks. Oh yeah – that’s SEXY. Will men come to hump me when I’m a corpse? I wouldn’t be surprised.
TIOA: you’re probably right. Or at least, the phenomenon is most likely hugely overblown.
I do think it is interesting however, that the cougar deal came about at the same time as viagra (and knockoffs) really started becoming huge.
Men can’t fake sexual interest the way women can.
Nothing is as self-esteem destroying to women as a limp dick. I think that’s one of the reasons why (up until now) the “sugar momma” phenomenon was never very big.
I can’t imagine why anyone would want to fake sexual interest. What’s the point of that?
As for the cougar thing, yeah it’s probably overblown to some extent. But I certainly know plenty of women over 50 who love having sex, many even more than when they were younger. They just have more confidence and know what they want more. That doesn’t mean they necessarily want sex with guys half their age, though.
Uh – NikkiB [YOU get to make the choices about who YOU let into your life] and others who speak of “choice.” Women do not have a “choice” about who they “let” into their lives. Rape is a theme that runs rampant throughout this culture. I did not have a choice about being raped, and then stalked and harassed by my rapist. The rapist [acquaintance] started out making “flattering’ remarks to me about my “sexiness” and then moved on to a sexual assault months later when I showed zero interest in him and after I told him “no.” And then… Read more »
And yet you keep talking….
While ordering everyone else to ‘shut up.’ Are you sure you understand what this site is about?
It’s a shame you’ve decided to devote your whole life to being a professional rape victim, but that’s really not my problem. Or anyone else’s. Bye now!
I’m a woman and I was vaguely bothered by your article about 20 Seconds as well. I can assure you, I don’t think a guy is a jerk for wanting to get laid. And I can also assure you that I don’t think sex is anything to feel guilty or ashamed of! I was not even raised to think that, fortunately. I don’t really think you did anything that you should feel guilty about. I think the truth is a LOT more complicated than that. The truth is that a lot of women’s experience is of being appreciated for their… Read more »
I think if you really looked and asked around you would find a lot of men who aren’t so attractive (although who has the ability to define it?) and get ignored time n time again by a lot of women. If you want men to notice the not so pretty ladies, we need women to also notice the n so pretty men. But at the end of the day we are attracted to what we like and there’s no shame in not wanting to date someone you don’t find appealing, as long as you still respect them as human. One… Read more »
Yes, there are men who aren’t so attractive and get ignored by women too, but I think we can safely agree that there are a lot more women who are willing to overlook this than there are men (although women can be just as bad in other ways, such as liking a guy for the size of his bank account). I certainly do know that men can be insecure too, and I agree that a lot of this is because of the media and the images that are presented to us of people who aren’t quite real, yet are held… Read more »
The last time I saw some statistic on this, it certainly looked like women were more picky than men (more men than women have very few sexual partners), and like younger women have more sexual partners than younger men. Whatever it is that’s sexually attractive in men for women, it looks like men start out pretty poorly — meanwhile, young women seem to start off pretty well. A harsh fact for teenage boys (who top suicide stats all over the world) and for middle aged women. If, like every “dating guru” will point out, it’s self confidence — well, I… Read more »
(if I sound bitter, it’s because I kind of am)
Yeah, definitely the tables tend to turn for the genders as they get older. And yes, it sucks on both sides. I do think it’s ethically superior to be attracted to self confidence, though. People can gain self confidence by doing things of substance and working through the issues that cause them to lack confidence – which is something I don’t think is at all a waste of time; it certainly can only benefit the person who takes this on. How does it really help a woman be a better person, on the other hand, to wear a Miracle Bra… Read more »
I disagree LF: When women are in their 20’s (or even 30’s) they won’t be able to discern a narcissistic egotist from somebody who has merit to be confidence. In essence ex-con thugs with no future have better chances with a great deal of 20 year old women then a slightly timid not-so-suave IT professional pulling down $150k. Not only is it AT LEAST as ethically challenged, but it doesn’t even make sense for quality of life, or raising kids in good environments. Many women will put up with incredibly sh1tty behavior (like cheating or humiliation) from aholes because they… Read more »
LOL… well of course there are a lot of (especially younger) women who make terrible choices based on a man’s wealth or status. I couldn’t agree with you more – a lot of women put up with an incredible amount of crap that makes my jaw drop, just to be with a guy who comes off as a “badass” or is wealthy, regardless if he’s a jerk. *OF COURSE* that is stupid. That doesn’t mean it makes “less sense” overall than male “attraction markers.” Fact is there are SOME men who came by their wealth and/or status in a substantial… Read more »
Hmm, well, I agree in part with what you are saying, but actually, unless a man wants to get a woman pregnant, simply chasing women for “signs of fertility” makes no more sense than whatever primitive impulses drive female attraction. Neither makes “sense” in a modern industrial culture. Men don’t need women who can pop out 10 kids without dying prematurely, and women don’t need men who can kill an antelope with a rock.
LOL yeah, exactly. In fact, many of the qualities I find attractive in men would’ve been totally useless if we were still in the prehistoric stage. 😀
Jill,
I agree that in most cases guys do not want to get women pregnant as a consequence of sex. But, the attraction markers have been built in over 100’s of thousands of years of mating.
The genes we have passed on to us are based upon SUCCESSFUL MATING.
You have to remember, before modern science child-birth was RISKY business. Women often died in child-birth killing off a man’s progeny.
Men who exhibited desire for women with poor fertility DID NOT PASS ON THEIR GENES. You act like attraction is a CHOICE. It’s not.
Well then, you have to assume the same for markers of attraction in men — women who did not look for those things did not reproduce as successfully. That’s why women are attracted to those things (status, dominance, physical strength, whatever). You keep saying that what men look for in women, I.e. physical attractiveness, is good and right and should never be questioned, but apparently what women look for is bad and wrong. Or are you saying women should be able to go against their biology to make choices based on logic and rationality, but we shouldn’t expect that of… Read more »
Yeah, once again Jill you nailed what I was feeling.
I do think that humans (beyond infancy when we have nothing but our biological expectations) have the ability to override primitive instincts if we can see that they’re destructive. Of course, a lot of people never do, but a lot of that’s because they’ve never thought about it or they have accepted that it isn’t possible.
Then again maybe some of us are just mutants and find it easier to override those tendencies than others. 😀
LF: How about women breaking some stereotypes? If a woman is not getting as many approaches as she wants (or is not getting the approaches from the more desirable men) then why doesn’t SHE approach? I think it’s interesting that the average women on here is coming on here and instructing men how to approach (and now even WHO to approach) but never turn that laser focus inward. I have even had a conversation with one of the female commenters on this websight who now has to resolve herself to not starting a family as she is in her early… Read more »
John D, how do you know what we’re all doing? I don’t have a problem at all with approaching men. I just don’t necessarily approach them in a sexually suggestive way – I just want to talk to them at first, so while I might make a flirtatious joke or something to that effect, I’m probably not going to be shoving my cleavage in his face or anything like that. It takes me awhile to really become attracted to someone, and by that time they’ve often lost interest or put me in the “just friends” category.
LF: I don’t claim to know what all women are doing. But, there are provable trends of what “on balance” most women do. I always have to laugh when posting here, because anytime a person (male or female) remarks upon what generally women do or don’t do, women jump out of the woodwork claiming to be the exception. No matter how often these exceptions tend to gravitate to tgmp, the exception doesn’t disprove the rule. While you may have no problem initiating with men, the fact is many women do. IN fact I have listened to several long monologues from… Read more »
Sure, I realize that the exception doesn’t disprove the rule – and of course I hear the same thing in the other direction, men jumping in and saying they’re not like this or that as if that validates all men. But of course, part of breaking gender stereotypes means that exceptions have to come forward and make themselves known. The more exceptions are out there, the more it becomes obvious that no one HAS to behave according to “the rules” if they don’t want to. And that, I think, is ultimately what we all want – to feel like we’re… Read more »
John D – And why does everything have to be about “getting laid”? I am not shy about “approaching” other people – male or female – for FRIENDSHIP, and then I am branded a “slut” just because I talk to men. At what point can a woman opt out of the mating game and just BE? I hate it when men start sizing me up sexually. I am 60 years old. I would have liked to be in a loving relationship at this point in my life, but from my own experiences and what I observe around me, there is… Read more »
“Why does everything have to be about getting laid?”
Yes, why don’t those starving people SHUT UP with their whining about food all the time? It’s annoying, and even downright rude!
Copyleft – People don’t DIE from refraining from having sex. And yes, whining about not being able to satisfy your sexual appetite is rude. No woman owes you sex. You are clearly an annoying prick. Good luck with that.
Tired of it all,
Nobody dies from hearing other people’s opinions either. Just because you don’t want to hear about other people’s frustrations doesn’t mean those frustrations aren’t sincerely felt, or that they are not based in fact.
Nobody owes anybody else sex, and nobody owes anybody else a hearing, but the frustrated DO have a right to complain. Learn to live with that. “You are clearly a close-minded [insert insult here].”
BS, Anonymous Dog. You and what’s his name are the types who can’t get the attention of women because you are too busy boring them to death with your whining and pawing and demands for what you won’t get. It is sexist for men to whine to women about withholding sex. Once again, women don’t owe you sex. Move on.
Speaking of “moving on,” if you’re tired of hearing men discuss things that concern them, maybe you’ve wandered onto the wrong site?
This is one place where women will NOT be able to shut men up.
TOIA, I have to step in here because I am frequently one who challenges trollish male commenters when they make sweeping negative over-generalizations about women. I am sorry that you have experienced terrible things from men (rape, stalking). That’s awful, and I wish I could help you. But “men” as a group did not wrong you, a man (or men) wronged you. Saying a lot of angry and abusive things about “men” is not helpful. You are doing the same thing that the angry MRA guys do over on the Spearhead and it’s just as wrong. Most men are not… Read more »
Wow, do you live in a really religious community or something? I can’t imagine being called a slut just for talking to men in a friendly way – I think I can safely say that’s never happened to me.
No, I don’t live in a religious community. Apparently because I am 1) attractive, 2) don’t date, and 3) not a good source of gossip, the neighborhood men are making up “facts” to brand me a slut. So if I talk to a man in public, it is assumed that I MUST be having sex with him. Right? It is not okay to be a single woman if men find you sexually attractive.
TOIA says:
And why does everything have to be about “getting laid”?
While sex shouldn’t necessarily be a life-goal in and of itself, there certainly is no point in being afraid of it. Sex is a part of being human. Being afraid of sex/intimacy is at least as damaging as being oversexed.
John D – Why do you assume that I am “afraid” of sex? Sex is part of being human, but there are good reasons not to partake – especially now, with HPV epidemic and not something that can be stopped with the use of condoms. (The medical community is only now becoming aware of how dangerous HPV is – it causes oral, anal, penile, vaginal, cervical and other cancers. There is also a suspicion that it is linked to heart disease.) I am not afraid of sex or intimacy. However, I believe that few people are truly intimate during sex.… Read more »
@Tired of it all Wow you seem to have everything under control but please understand that the world does not cater to an all love or all hate Gender binary? We live in various levels hurt, frustration & optimism with each other. This discussion is about elevating mutually beneficial, constructive dialog so we may one day: – reach a greater sense of love and respect for each other’s humanity. -Build a sexual Morality that does not degrade the sexes or one that is backed by religious authoritarianism. – learn to rationally debate people who use Men’s “Biological Imperative” as the be all excuse… Read more »
Budmin – You seem to be a thoughtful person, and I am glad you are trying to figure out how to get along with the opposite sex. My guess is that you are a lot younger than I am, so you are still willing to engage. I am dealing with the shock of having been raped by a neighbor who was encouraged to rape me by other men in the neighborhood. When I tried to get help from the police, they helped the rapist. When I got a restraining order against the rapist, the police refused to enforce it, then… Read more »
Hey John, I think I’m the one who made the comment you are referring to 🙂 so I want to tell you that I given a lot of thought about what have said on this topic. Would it benefit women to approach men and ask them out? Would it have benefitted me in trying to find a nice family man to settle down with? Because, as I’ve commented in other threads, I dated the men who were attracted to me and who expressed interest. Some of them were very attracted to me, but not interested in a LTR. Some of… Read more »
Great question. If a woman is super attractive, then she’s going to have more guys hitting on her than she would like, so she’s probably not going to initiate anything. If she’s not very attractive, as you say it wouldn’t do any good to initiate anyway. But most of us probably fall between those two extremes, and are attractive to some men and not other men. In that case it seems to help to initiate at least a conversation and see what kind of signals you get from him – just like guys do with us. I tend to like… Read more »
The “all men want is sex” meme is so worn out and tiring, and completely fails to take into account that women want physical pleasure too. I’ve encountered at least as many (actually, probably more) situations where the guy is looking for more of a commitment than the girl. Every man is different and every woman is different, and we all want different things at different stages of our lives. Most people will have bad experiences in the dating world (whether it’s repeated rejection, a bad relationship, or boredom), but it’s no reason to become bitter towards the other gender… Read more »
Hell, if having a sexual thought or, god forbid, performing a sexual act diminishes my feminism then I am a lost cause. I like my husband. I like having sex with him. I like flirting with him and I like when he flirts with me. It’s not demeaning nor is it not one-sided.
There are so many feminist themes and causes that I agree with and support, but the most alienating theme I run into is that men (and therefore, me) are jerks for wanting sex. This. It’s easier to blame and shame the man for being some sex starved, objectifying creep than admit, “Hey…it really disappointed me that he doesn’t care for my well being or demonstrate how much he values me as a person.” The women don’t want to express a vulnerability. They need to make it about a critical flaw in the male design than about their own insecurity. Many… Read more »