Joanna Schroeder has known a lot of Nice Guys™ and understands the frustration and fear women feel as a result, but believes the bullying and humiliation happening on Nice Guys of OK Cupid is out of line.
There’s a lot of talk about this Nice Guys of OK Cupid (NGOKC)* Tumblr site, where photos of non-consenting men are taken off the OK Cupid dating site and mocked for everyone to see.
First word of warning: I don’t buy the crap that all guys who call themselves “nice” are actually nice. In fact, I’ve witnessed enough self-proclaimed “nice guys” saying racist, sexist, rapey and scary things in my life that my ears automatically perk at any guy who calls himself “nice”.
That being said, I know a lot of actual, real-life nice guys. Guys that are kind, sweet, smart, genuine and giving. My husband is one of those, as is my brother. All through high school my brother was the girls’ best pal, but rarely their date. The girls he had mad crushes on would keep him on the phone for hours, then go to the dance with a different guy. Eventually he grew out of that phase, or more accurately, he went to college where the women were more interested in a highly intelligent sweetheart than they had been at our high school.
For the purpose of this article, I’m going to call guys like my brother “nice guys” and guys like the the scary ones, “Nice Guys™” and hopefully the distinction is clear, because calling assholes “nice” is confusing and I suspect the misnomer does more damage to understanding who is a threat to our safety and who is not.
♦◊♦
Hugo Schwyzer’s 2013 debut piece on Jezebel, No One is Entitled to Sex: Why We Should Mock the Nice Guys of OK Cupid, argues that the underlying issue with Nice Guys™ is that they feel like they somehow deserve sex or romance from women.
What’s on offer isn’t just an opportunity to snort derisively at the socially awkward; it’s a chance to talk about the very real problem of male sexual entitlement. The great unifying theme of the curated profiles is indignation. These are young men who were told that if they were nice, then, as Laurie Penny puts it, they feel that women “must be obliged to have sex with them.” The subtext of virtually all of their profiles, the mournful and the bilious alike, is that these young men feel cheated. Raised to believe in a perverse social/sexual contract that promised access to women’s bodies in exchange for rote expressions of kindness, these boys have at least begun to learn that there is no Magic Sex Fairy.
I think Hugo has nailed something about Nice Guys™ and their belief that they are somehow owed sex or love. That really resonates with me from a few experiences I’ve had with Nice Guys™ in my own life.
But I get a whole different sense from some of the guys on NGOKC. I get the sense that they’re like my brother was when he was young, except perhaps a bit more socially awkward. Perhaps they call themselves “nice guys” because they don’t realize that in the blogosphere, that actually means Nice Guy™ and connotes a self-righteous prick who thinks that the only reason he isn’t getting dates is because he isn’t an asshole, all the while not realizing that he actually is an asshole, most notably because he believes he is entitled to a woman’s attention and feels pretty self-righteous about being a so “nice”.
It’s all very confusing. Here’s a tl;dr—Yes, most guys are nice, but no, not all guys who call themselves “nice” are actually nice. In other words, friends, judge each person as an individual and don’t give your number to a guy who is an asshole, regardless of what he calls himself.
♦◊♦
So let’s be real, here. NGOKC is a bullying site. We all know that, right? Even those who think the bullying is justified as a protective measure against the Nice Guys ™ realize that what they’re doing is grade-school level bullying. We’re publicly mocking people by putting their faces on a site they didn’t agree to be on, and we’re sharing their faces with our friends so we can talk about how stupid and annoying and awkward they are.
And America loves bullies! As long as the person getting bullied is the “right” person, we love to set our enemies on fire (symbolically, of course). For instance, if you think that women don’t belong in gaming, you were pretty psyched that Anita Sarkeesian was bullied. If you think a reformed and repentant former addict with a sordid past shouldn’t have a voice in feminist discourse, then you’re amped that Hugo Schwyzer has been bullied for the past year.
Because Anita Sarkeesian deserves it. Because Hugo deserves it. Because the Nice Guys of OK Cupid deserve it.
Because we’re pissed off at them for how they’re potentially going to hurt us.
These are extreme examples, of course. It’s easy to say that Anita Sarkeesian doesn’t deserve it—you truly have to be an amoral and misogynist asshole to believe that the threats and harassment Ms. Sarkeesian endured last year were in any way deserved. But what about Hugo? If you are an abuse survivor, or if you grew up in a home with an addict, you may not feel comfortable with Hugo being active within feminist movement. I disagree with you, but you have every right to speak your mind about that and I will be respectful of your critique (though I may critique back). But do you have a right to threaten his safety, the safety of his family, to spread misinformation and outright lies about him in order to topple his source of income? I’d say no.
And the Nice Guys™? Do all of them deserve to be mocked, to have their faces plastered all over the place because we’ve all known one too many assholes who masquerade as “nice” only to turn out to be cruel, or even scary, self-righteous assholes?
I’d say no to that, too, particularly in the format NGOKC does it. They don’t know these guys and some of them are so seemingly innocent that it guts me to see them mocked like this. As Ally Fogg points out in his recent reaction to the Jezebel piece, The Self-Righteous Bullies of Tumblr and Their Feminist Apologists, there are more than a few guys’ photos on NGOKC that feature nothing aggressive, harassing or even politically incorrect, but are mocked nonetheless. One such profile features only the following quote from the guy, nothing else. And he is still mocked:
Remember that boy in high school who helped give relationship advice to girls he really liked that were taken? Every time he tries to solve an issue that the girl had, he succeeds, but not with the girl. That boy was me. I was always in the friend zone. The “nice guy.”
Of course that evokes my brother and my friend from high school, Matt Crowder, who writes about being called a “geek”. I would take you out hard for mocking my brother or Matt in that way. And the idea of the kid above being mocked publicly makes me rage. The guy is so young that I keep typing “kid” to describe him. He’s an adult and I want to respect that, but he’s a kid in the scheme of life, struggling to find dates, and then this happens to him? For what? To make us laugh?
It’s bullying, plain and simple.
♦◊♦
Women are angry at Nice Guys™ and that anger deserves a forum. We’re angry at the way they make us feel guilty for not wanting to have sex with them. We’re angry at the way we are often manipulated into believing we’re in a legitimate and safe friendship with them until suddenly they turn on us and call us horrible names and make us feel like shit and deeply ashamed for not desiring them. And we deserve to be angry over that.
But who are we sacrificing to that anger? The kid who is quoted above? Why is he taking the fall for the prick who says, “‘No’ is just a ‘yes’ that needs some convincing”? That Nice Guy™ needs some convincing that he is a scary potential rapist that should seek therapy, tout suite. That guy deserves our anger. But what genuinely nice guys are we going to mow down with all our rage toward him and his ilk?
And when does our rage stop being a genuine excuse for hurting others? There was a time, not that long ago, when men were allowed one emotion: anger. And women were not allowed anger. As a result, the feminist movement rightly encouraged women to raise their anger to seek justice and equality—equal access to the vote, to career and educational opportunities, to equal protection under the law, and equal rights within the family and to property inheritance (among other things). Thank God for their anger.
And their anger was used as a weapon against them, too. They were told they were crazy, out of control squelching witches. It was used as an excuse to not listen to women’s voices. Ladies, just settle down here for a moment. Everyone just calm your pretty little heads. And that patronizing bullshit only made them more angry. But their anger changed things.
But is all anger excusable, regardless of outcome?
Noah Brand recently pointed out to me the ways in which we’ve almost turned anger into a god, a thing we worship, in our society. He says that justified anger gave way to a major change in the nature of discourse. “This [anger] was a game-breaking rule change. Because suddenly there’s one thing you can’t ever argue with, reason against, anything. You just have to accept it.”
Because if you don’t, you’re silencing a woman. And that is truly a very bad thing.
“Given this,” Noah continued, “more and more discourse shifted to a place of anger. It’s like if you’re playing Battleship, but the house rule is you can’t bomb Row H, pretty soon everyone will just stack everything on H. It’s just more efficient to start every argument from a place of anger, because then you can’t ever lose or even be challenged.”
Well, I’m challenging this particular outlet for anger right now. The Nice Guys of OK Cupid goes too far.
I am angry about stuff in our society. I’m enraged about the ways in which rape is not taken seriously in our society, about the fact that less than 2% of rapists ever serve a night in jail. I’m livid about the horrific oppression many women around the world live in. I’m spitting nails over the bigoted politics that keeps same-sex couples from marrying. Man, I’m pissed about a lot.
But my rage doesn’t give me an excuse to hurt innocent people. And you, curators of Nice Guys of OK Cupid, are hurting a lot of innocent people.
In his critique of Hugo Schwyzer’s Jezebel article, Ally Fogg says this:
[B]ecause Hugo wants to have a chat about male sexual entitlement, he is quite prepared to accept this bullying as a means to an end, and write off the victims as collateral damage. I can only try to imagine how these men must feel, what the psychological consequences might be for a dejected, lonely young man with minimal self-esteem who suddenly finds himself subjected to public ridicule by millions and branded a douche, a misogynist and a creep by association.
There are civilian casualties in any war, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t exercise caution and practice empathy with each and every discussion. In this case, some of the guys profiled and mocked on NGOKC are guys who are already suffering, and as Ally Fogg explains, “It’s immoral to place them in the 21st Century equivalent of the medieval stocks to be mocked, abused and humiliated.”
♦◊♦
I must make one more point here, even though it is only tangentally related. In my Twitter stream yesterday was a plea from a reader who directed me to Hugo’s article with this, “Imagine this: picture of overweight woman who says she has a “great personality” w her misguided/uneducated profile answers. [Next tweet] below photo: ‘HAHA this ugly fat chick thinks she deserves a bf because she has a great personality’. jezebel would be outraged”
Indeed, I think Jezebel would be outraged, and so would I. (By the way, that horrible shit happens all the time. I have Googled and found sites that do exactly that. I will not link here because I don’t want to give them linkbacks.)
But it’s not a direct comparison. As wrong as I think the NGOKC Tumblr is, as far as I can see, they are not mocking the guys because of their weight or their looks. They are primarily mocking them because they said they were “nice”. And there are a significant number of guys on NGOKC who would meet any mainstream standard of being attractive.
♦◊♦
It comes down to this. Most people believe that someone deserves to be mocked publicly, harassed, or even bullied. Whether it’s a politician you disagree with, a person who wrote something you find troubling, or an asshole pretending to be a nice guy.
But in every voice you raise against the person you disagree with, ask yourself this: Am I challenging this person, or am I bullying them? Am I trying to make the world better, or am I trying to draw attention to my own “goodness”?
And ask yourself whether the innocent people you take down alongside your target are worth the war you’re waging, the way you’re waging it.
*Update: As of Saturday January 5, 2013 the Tumblr blog “Nice Guys of OK Cupid” has been taken down.
Photo: Flickr/Wonderlane
Due respect but the guy you say doesn’t deserve to be mocked, deserves to be mocked.
He has the exact same sense of entitlement that all “Nice Guys”TM have; “I was ‘nice’ to you therefore you’re supposed to go out/sleep with me.”
The funny thing is how many women who escape from abusive relationships start their statement to the police or testimony in court with, “He seemed so nice when we first met!”
Or how often do their family tell the police the same thing or say the same thing when their partner is on trial for murdering them?
If nothing else, NGOKC is a great resource for women to spot these losers and give them a way to avoid them.
This is all very confusing. I think the core belief of “real” Nice Guys is that they are being eschewed for assholes. If so, those women who have rejected them will get what they deserve. Case in point, my ex wife, who I sacrificed my own career for so she could pursue a unique career opportunity for herself that required us (her, I and our 3 children) to move from a place where my career was blossoming to a place where it died on the vine so she could pursue a high level position at a sky rocketing dot com… Read more »
PEOPLE – PLEASE READ THE SOURCES YOU CRITICIZE BEFORE YOU WRITE MISLEADING ARTICLES AND COMMENTS. Maybe you haven’t actually seen the website NGOKC? The “Nice Guys” are on there not because they have poor social skills or aren’t conventionally attractive enough to get dates — if that were the case, it would be bullying. But no, they are on there because they say the most sexist, racist, xenophobic, homophobic opinions on their profiles WHILE also claiming to be “nice”. When people say hurtful things to oppress others, we have every right to call them out.
1. No need for the all caps at the beginning. 2. Yes most of us here actually did read the site. 3. The “Nice Guys” are on there not because they have poor social skills or aren’t conventionally attractive enough to get dates…. Actually yes some of them are. I’m wondering if you actually looked at the site. 4. they are on there because they say the most sexist, racist, xenophobic, homophobic opinions on their profiles WHILE also claiming to be “nice”. And if that was the case then you would have a point. But since that is not all… Read more »
I didn’t actually get to see the site. Did anyone get screenshots?
@Elizabeth, people are saying that some of them did not trigger any of the racist or homophobic slurs, but were actually these socially awkward guys/whatever. I doubt people would care if it was only the assholes being called out.
Unfortunately no I did not keep any screens but I can say that from what I saw there was a mix of assholes being called out and innocently awkward guys being bullied.
no screens here, but I only saw claims from the bloggist, no real evidence. He could actually have fabricated everything just for notoriety. And what metrics are being used to judge a asshole? how does one get selected to be a butthole? I dont know….more I think about it more unethical it seems to me. And more difficoult it gets to justify everything.
Archy, please see my reply to Danny (it is currently awaiting moderation)
@ Danny 1. Caps help attract attention, especially in a sea of people rushing to defend men who say sexist things 2. Maybe you didn’t read it carefully enough? All of the men featured said misogynistic things: — blatant misogyny, such as expecting sex as an obligation. If this belief of entitlement to sex is followed through regardless of lack of consent, it is also known as rape. — casual misogyny, such as requiring all women to shave their legs. Also known as a double standard. Wanting your partner to shave her legs is a preference, not an entitlement. You… Read more »
@ Danny 1. Caps help attract attention, especially in a sea of people rushing to defend men who say sexist things. Not defending men who say sexist things. More of defending men whose words are being called sexist when it doesn’t fit the bill. 2. Maybe you didn’t read it carefully enough? All of the men featured said misogynistic things: Unless you are ready to defend that assertion about every single entry on that site I dare say that you are wrong about that. The problem problem is there are entries on that page that were none of what you… Read more »
The friend zone is misogyny. It is what we use to shame women who exercise their right to say no. (And slut is what we use to shame women who exercise their right to say yes.) Have you ever heard of a woman complaining that a man friend zoned her? No, she is told that He’s Just Not That Into You, so stop obsessing over him ok? To your assertion that women like to string men along — A man giving a female friend relationship advice doesn’t automatically mean that she is leading him on. It means that they are… Read more »
The friend zone is misogyny. It is what we use to shame women who exercise their right to say no. No. It’s what was originally used to call out women that led guys along in a relationship where she was getting what she wanted but he was not getting what he wanted. It has come to encompass what you mention here but that was not the original use. Have you ever heard of a woman complaining that a man friend zoned her? No, she is told that He’s Just Not That Into You, so stop obsessing over him ok? Yes… Read more »
Either case Elizabeth, the bad behaviour of someone doesn’t justify the bad behavior of others. Exposing pics of people without their consent,I dont know how it is where you live, but in my country is considered a crime. And im sorry, good people, bad people, or just “funny” people whatever reason there may be doesn’t condone their exposure without their consent. To me there is no way around and NGOKC engaged in unethical and perhaps illegal behavior. Do you condone breaking the law just for the sake of fun? Its ok to expose people you dont like online? do you… Read more »
“Have you ever heard of a woman complaining that a man friend zoned her? No, she is told that He’s Just Not That Into You, so stop obsessing over him ok?” Yes, and I’ve heard women say they friendzone people. Methinks you may not fully realize what friendzone is, at least for the versions I used when i use to harp on about it it wasn’t about women that I did nice things for that didn’t like me, which is normal and ok, it was specifically for women that would lead someone on and USE THEM for their “nice” behaviour.… Read more »
Holy cow, so a guy who might be hopeful in the friend zone deserves to have his picture and profile posted for the world to see and ridiculed? You are very cruel. I hope you recover from whatever trauma you endured and I’m sorry about all the pain you must be going through to defend/promote this behavior.
“PEOPLE – PLEASE READ THE SOURCES YOU CRITICIZE BEFORE YOU WRITE MISLEADING ARTICLES AND COMMENTS. Maybe you haven’t actually seen the website NGOKC” Thats your words…how do I know its true? where are the evidence about that? I did only see few pics and some comments. How do I know the person who held the NGOKC is not just another troll? and even if it was true, that doesent justify bulliysm. You dont change people opinions through bullysm. You educate them and challenge them through open debate. So NO. That blog was borderline criminal and there is little to no… Read more »
First, if you read my article you will find details of at least one where the person was obviously not a jerk. I made it very clear. I read 10 pages of the NGOKC Tumblr, very carefully, before writing this article. Please go back and reread my article if you missed those details. Also, see Ally Fogg’s article, linked here, for more details. I do have screenshots but they’ve made their way to my trashcan along with like 300 other things that aren’t named. Enough people have recognized that not all of the guys on NGOKC were saying anything all… Read more »
Remember that boy in high school who helped give relationship advice to girls he really liked that were taken? Every time he tries to solve an issue that the girl had, he succeeds, but not with the girl. That boy was me. I was always in the friend zone. The “nice guy.” *** Joanna — you gave the above example. He was nice to girls but they put him in the “friend zone”. NO. The friend zone is a fallacy. Women are not machines that you put kindness into until sex falls out. This guy might have been sad he… Read more »
Elizabeth, This guy might have been sad he didn’t get any sex or romance, but he was still being a Nice Guy (TM) for believing that he was entitled to it, just because he was exhibiting friend-behaviors. I can’t figure out where you’re getting the impression that he believed he was entitled to more than friendship. He certainly is at least sad that he never got to more than friendship with those girls, but where do you get “entitled”? Are you perhaps assuming that’s what he means by “friend zone”, because you’ve seen other guys who definitely did feel entitlement… Read more »
Cyberbulling is still such a new phenomenon…but, in human history, so is dating.
Being hurt can make you mean, and being mean can make you meaner.
Meh. Nice guys. I just grew the f*ck up and realized that “women” (in general) weren’t worth being treated any nicer than the next person. Worked wonders with my relationships. Why? I just flat out quit caring. Suddenly 4 women that I had been listening to, while they cried their little hearts out, were wondering where I went. I stop back, talk a little, but I’m busy so it can’t be long. Then they got mad, then they started chasing, then they got naked. I basically said that I “just want to be friends” and am just that: a friend.… Read more »
My wife and I had a discussion about if we have a boy what will we teach him about talking to girls when he gets to his teenage years. That was really the most gentle thing we could come up with without being prejudicial. “Just treat them like anyone else”. Treat them exactly like you do any other friend. Don’t treat them nicer, don’t treat them better, don’t go out of your way to do something for them, and don’t get them gifts for no reason”. We both know from our own experiences (me from having terrible dating problems my… Read more »
If I told women half of the jokes my male friends and I tell each other, I would be labeled a pervert. One such example is us saying that we would rather have a large pineapple violently inserted into our urethra than develop in C#.
Question: If NGoOKC had used any measure whatsoever to protect users anonymity, (how) would this conversation be different?
I think if the user’s anonymity had been maintained that would successfully pull the project out of bullying territory and into the land of “bad taste.”
I don’t think that it would have avoided the nice guys vs Nice Guys, women are also part of the problem, I don’t think you know what the friendzone means, friendzone is bullshit, it’s not sexual entitlement, bullshit on sexual entitlement, etc etc back and forth; that part of the conversation would have come up regardless.
Doing a point by point takedown on why something is bad I don’t think would be bullying, especially if it’s anon like in your question. Being snarky and lumping everyone together though would be.
“Profile 1 says X, X is misogynistic because it treats women like yadda yadda” No need for photos or usernames, might need to change wording a bit so they can’t be googled.
this was moderated into dust apparently: ——— You can see just on comments on various articles on this site that women’s “instructions” on how to go about dating are all over the place. First we see complaints about being looked at as a sexual object so they say “I want a man to love me for me and really get to know me”. Yet when a guy actually does this he gets friendzoned (oh I forgot that “doesn’t exist” according to feminists), I mean the man tries to get to know her as a person he turns into a friend… Read more »
Here what I thought as the source of problem : Many Men and Women thought that they are really different creatures when it comes to dating and sex, when the reality is we are not really different. Men and women believe that when it comes to attraction, men attracted to women on the first sights and physical only, while women attracted only when they alrady known men personaly. This believe make so many misunderstanding on dating scene. First, the whole being nice and get love/sex. Men believe that in order to get a woman attracted to you, you must be… Read more »
Jimbo’s comment should be comment of the day.
“First we see complaints about being looked at as a sexual object so they say “I want a man to love me for me and really get to know me”. Yet when a guy actually does this he gets friendzoned (oh I forgot that “doesn’t exist” according to feminists), I mean the man tries to get to know her as a person he turns into a friend instead of a romantic interest. The guy attempted to “get to know her as a person” (as we’ve heard on various comments), but that put him in a non-romantic/sexual spot. The man tells… Read more »
Archy, I understand what they are saying and I get it, but I don’t buy into it being a legitimate complaint. Any attraction that is sexual in nature has an element of objectification to it. When I _look_ at a woman the first thing I notice (after her face) is her legs, another guy might notice breasts first. What I hear from feminists is this is “objectification”. The truth is it’s just personal preference I find for attraction. Even if it is “objectification” it’s not a bad thing because thats concerning my own sexuality and women aren’t going to tell… Read more »
That’s not objectification. Objectification would require you to only see them as body parts, not noticing a human with great legs, breasts, etc. Basic attraction does not objectify and I wish people would quit spouting such a myth. If you see a woman and think she has nice legs, but still realize she is a woman and you go on to wonder about her for more than her body than she is not an object. If you think of her as just someone to have sex with but see her as a tool for your pleasure, and not a human… Read more »
If that’s your idea of objectification than I have never known _any man_ to objectify a woman he’s interested in. Please give me a real world example of a man who objectifies a women he dates or wants to date.
Your idea also doesn’t line up with what I read on the feminist websites that pretty much equate men complimenting any part of a woman’s look as objectification.
Jimbo & Archy – I think you’re agreeing with each other, both saying that what feminist Web sites define as “objectification” doesn’t happen all that often, because men are capable of noticing, being attracted to, and complimenting some physical trait without that meaning it’s the only or most important characteristic of the person they’re attracted to. You know…kind of like women say they do.
That’s the thing, those feminists are dead wrong about objectification and quite frankly don’t seem to have any idea of what men as a group are like. I’ve rarely seen a man or woman objectify someone, hell the most romantic stuff I’ve heard of has come from MEN. It’s sad how out of touch some people are. I’m sure there are men in their lives who do obectify them but I highly doubt they are the majority.
So let’s see…
A guy has to get to know a woman as a person and connect with her emotionally, all while conveying that he is sexually interested in her, without her perceiving that as him thinking she’s a sex object. And he has to do all of that in a short period of time, lest he be friendzoned.
Seems easy enough.
Easy indeed:P
Just give a damn about her hobbies, her life, don’t 100% focus on her sexuality.
if, for example, i was to say on the internet that i wouldn’t piss on hugo schwyzer even if he was on fire, would that constitute bullying ?
or is that just sharing my opinion about someone who chooses to throw himself into the limelite with opinions i find revolting ?
Well, since Joanna’s article featured a quote by Hugo Schwyzer, I feel that it is necessary to rebut feminists arguments about nice guys through a pro-male woman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9XDb0nxSO4
This video should be required watching.
Wanna know the really scary part of all this nice guy vs bad guy stuff? The men I know that are misogynist as hell, never have trouble meeting women. The shy “nice guys” I know are no where near as entitled as the bad guys, the shy guys actually feel they aren’t WORTHY of a woman (their self-esteem is shit) and I’m not so sure they feel entitled to anything. YMMV Yes, which only reinforces my suspicion that feminists simply enjoy taking pot shots at romantically unsuccessful shy guys. Maybe this whole NGOKC will have a positive side effect, in… Read more »
it is also telling that these women not just reject, but actively demonise these ‘undesireable’ men. im sure there is biology driving the revulsion
An enlightening start is to being by looking at Hugo himself.
His affairs are no secret, nor is his abuse of power to get laid. Yet somehow Hugo gets to tell other men about what is moral and what is not.
Yet somehow Hugo gets to tell other men about what is moral and what is not. The thing is, though, that’s precisely his appeal to feminists. Think about it. This is a guy who slept with several younger female students and attempted a murder/suicide involving his girlfriend, among his many other transgressions. Let’s see. Former drug user? Check. Womanizer? Check. Dangerous? Definitely check. He fulfills every negative stereotype that feminists have about men. His mission seems to be letting women/feminists know that most men are just as bad as he used to be, and that only their feminism can save… Read more »
Write an article of the negativity of the opposite gender, written by someone of that gender and it’ll probably be very popular with those who think negatively of that gender.
I am coming in on the conversation late but I just have a couple comments on the friendzone thing. I’ve said this before but… I am not a big fan of PUA but one thing they teach which I think is 100% right is that if you want a romantic life you can’t waste your time on friendships with women who don’t reciprocate your feelings. You need to be clear up front that you want to date her. If she says no, move on. It sounds mean, maybe, but you only have so much time. The other thing I’ve noticed… Read more »
I agree with a lot of what you say, Sarah, but I don’t understand why you stigmatize mental disease in such a way.
“You need to be clear up front that you want to date her. If she says no, move on. It sounds mean, maybe, but you only have so much time.” But then you’re a creep who clearly only wanted to get into her pants and moved on when she didn’t automatically open her legs for you and give you the sex you think you deserve. If you *really* liked her, for more than just her body, you would have stuck around instead of running off at the first hint of difficulty. And she’ll be glad she turned you down since… Read more »
Pretty much. If he says up front he’s interested in dating/romance/sex then he’s a creep that just wants to get in her pants. If develops feelings over time during friendship and then says something and decides to leave when those feelings are not reciprocated then the entire past friendship is retconned as being a front to get into her pants. No matter which way he goes about it if he so much as doesn’t like it if the outcomes doesn’t go the way he would like it to go it will ALWAYS be explained away as him having some nefarious… Read more »
Yup. Haven’t you noticed that everything is a mans fault? Man can’t get a date? His fault. Woman can’t get a date? Men are stupid/shallow/”afraid of a strong independent woman”/intimidated. Man misreads signals and makes a wrong move? His fault for being stupid or thinking he’s entitled to sex. Also, if she was interested she would tell him! Man misreads signals and doesn’t make a move when he should? His fault for not getting the OBVIOUS hint. Woman sees man she’s interested in and says nothing? It’s okay honey, you shouldn’t have to risk the pain and humiliation of rejection!… Read more »
What I don’t understand about these Nice Guys is what compels them to think that the best place to air their dirty laundry is on a dating website. Like, seems to me to be pretty backward logic to complain about women on a site designed to hook you up with women. I don’t know if it’s youth or lack of self-awareness, as some of the men on Tumblr looked far too old to be still in-the-dark on how very basic dating works. Rule Number One: Don’t be bitter, resentful or angry. It’s something both sexes can agree on at least.… Read more »
“Though they’re still probably more successful at getting laid if they want– at least if they’re attractive enough. Someone did a test study and created a fake profile for the most ignorant, racist, bigoted, idiotic woman she could manage, and as long as the picture she chose was attractive, the girl got messages.” Part of why the nice guys exist, girls still get SOME form of intimacy but these guys can’t get anything. I am not so sure women can truly empathize fully with the nice guys if they’ve ever had a bf/gf. I’ve seen women who write about how… Read more »
girls still get SOME form of intimacy but these guys can’t get anything.
Yes. I don’t think most women can truly understand the toll that involuntary celibacy takes on men, which is why they always seem inclined to write off male sexual frustration as entitled, privileged whine.
I hate to say this, but most of those guys on NGoOC tumblr are not attractive physically. They are mostly overweight, dont know how to dress, and have awful poses on those pics. They seem like guys who don’t care with their appearance at all. I’m a guy and I still amazed by how many single guys still believe that women don’t care for men appearance at all. They maybe less shallow when it comes to looks compare to men, but still have preferences and attraction for men physique and appearance. Little tweaks on diet, exercise, and nice fitted clothes… Read more »
“If a regular unattractive fat guy being nice to a girl, her reaction would be very different compare to if Mat Bomer or Channing Tatum being nice to her. Thats how human are. Thats how human sexuality are. Nice people are not the same as attractive people. When it comes to that, men and women are not really different. Yes we are different, but not THAT different.” This is also an entirely different question. And I have lost count of how many times I have seen overweight women defend their right to lust after conventionally attractive men. The difference being… Read more »
To whit:
http://feministing.com/2009/05/09/ask_professor_foxy_does_my_siz/comment-page-1/#comments
Given what you wrote and how Greg responded to it, the right thing to do was apologize, explain that you misread his comment, and wait for his reply. I would think, given you professed concern for male survivors, it would bother you that Greg took your comments as minimizing his abuse. Apparently I am mistaken. My apologies.
In the whole history of the world, no female has ever given a man any accurate, constructive advice on how to attract other women sexually. Sure, they give useful advice on how to deal with a woman who is feeling strong sexual attraction, “Like just be yourself”. Which is useless if there is no tingle. Opinions vary as to why this is so. The best is probably that women in general have needed thru out history to extract resources from men they can never feel sexual attraction towards and having too much insight into their own true “gut” feelings would… Read more »
If there is no tingle, why would you want to attract that woman? If she doesn’t have a tingle for you, or you don’t have it for her.
You can be something other than yourself to get that tingle from her, but that will only lead to misery down the road. I’ve seen it dozens of times, mostly from women trying to get a guy’s attention, but a few times the other way around, too.
Joanna.
I think you are misrepresenting and circumventing the issue with your answer.
It’s not about wanting to be with someone without the tingle.
It is about what it takes to get the tingle in the first place.
In the whole history of the world, no female has ever given a man any accurate, constructive advice on how to attract other women sexually. Hyperbole aside: There’s no formula. Every person is different. I don’t expect my woman friends to know more than generalities that may or may not apply in any given situation. And some of them will come up with real stinkers when asked for relationship advice… Just like men will. Sure, they give useful advice on how to deal with a woman who is feeling strong sexual attraction, “Like just be yourself”. Which is useless if… Read more »
Here’s some more good advice. I’d call it accurate and constructive. And it’s from a woman. Assuming you’re interested in a friend: Be a good friend, a true friend, who is legitimately there for her without an agenda. Don’t be opportunistic with your friendship, and don’t treat it as disposable if or when she does not express romantic interest in you. When you’re rejected, understand that it’s not because you’re “too nice,” or because she’s a “shallow bitch.” Sometimes things just don’t work out. And, for God’s sake, have a real personality that can be described without using the word… Read more »
Check out the female PUA teacher Kezia Noble. She gives genuine advices….
I feel that to lay all of the blame on the NGOKC is to completely ignore the general nature of “dating sites.” And that is to always “shop up” from both male and female perspectives. Female friends who join these sites are looking for the best and the brightest, and that means that they’re looking for the man who’s most fit, best looking, has the most impressive salary, and ideally a full head of hair. I’ll admit it: had I come across one serious (ex-)significant other on a dating site, I wouldn’t have considered responding to him had he contacted… Read more »
You have some points, but your example of bullying on NiceGuysOfOKC for no reason is a bit flawed. I read through a bunch of the reblogs of it. Judging from the rest of the blog, that guy is being mocked for his second to last sentence: “I was always in the friend zone.” They’ve pretty clearly established the “friend zone” as one of the concepts they find offensive and worthy of mockery. Now, we can debate whether it’s ok to mock people for mentioning it, but we cannot do that while ignoring that it’s something people find offensive in the… Read more »
But why do “incorrect” opinions on non sexual issues (ie believing in dinosaurs) or “questionable” fashion choices (fedoras?) deserve sanction?
Ive also read a lot of snark (not on the site but elsewhere) about facial hair. At what point does “taking offence” become just being mean?
The blog appears to have been taken down now
http://niceguysofokc.tumblr.com/
anyone know why? (hopefully tumblr themselves pulled the plug on the odious project)
Jamesq: I will not get surprised if OKCupid reacted. Afterall the blog were stealing pics from OKcupid site, and placing OKcupids customers in display. There is no way in heaven or earth that somebody can make me believe that this is a ethically, morally and legal thing to do.
Imo I think people reported the blog to Tumblr and Okcupid and it would be nice if hope the owner/s of the blog will get their account closed with a nice law suit. The optimal thing would be if the victims of that blog sued the owners and demanded reparations.
The point of that tumblr is to show the amount of men on okcupid who feel male sexual entitlement. Most of the guys “mocked” on that site say sexist and racist things. They deserve to be mocked. Public awareness of the “Nice Guy Syndrome” needs to be discussed and pointed out as much as possible so that guys stop acting like they deserve sex from a woman just because they want it. I have always been anti-dating sites but I did a little experiment and tried OK Cupid for a week to see if my stigma against dating sites was… Read more »
I’ve encountered at least a few women on OKC with similar opinions to these guys – yes, even the thing about women being obligated to shave their legs. Should I mock them in a blog? Face it, the tumblr is just mean.
“Thankful that I don’t need to go on a dating site to get laid.”
Well, bully for you. Oh, and some of us actually want meaningful companionship.
Not every guy on okcupid is a scumbag but obviously enough are that there is a tumblr dedicated to them. I fully support it. I’m sick of “Nice Guys” and think that tumblr is an amusing, feminist response to that.
That Tumblr is unethical and probably illegal so good the blog is gone. There is no excuse for cyberbully.
So we are supposed to just trust the judgment of that small group of feminists on who is a Nice Guy or not?
Again, some of the guys are singled out for clicking “yes” to “women are obligated to shave their legs” (which, again, I’ve seen women click yes to) or “men should be the head of the household” (sexist, but not an uncommon sentiment shared even by some women).
I’ve even seen guys on the site because they clicked that they don’t believe in evolution or dinosaurs – what does that have to do with sexism or misogyny? And what is sexist or misogynist about WEARING A FEDORA?
Fedora? Ruh-roh.
So you wouldn’t object to sites dedicated to mocking the profiles of entitled women?
I really have to think that the whole “Nice Guy TM” thing is really just a way to discourage men, all of them, from voicing any frustration with dating and/or women. Shame them into silence!
I really have to think that the whole “Nice Guy TM” thing is really just a way to discourage men, all of them, from voicing any frustration with dating and/or women. Shame them into silence!
That’s exactly how I see it.
I appreciate your answer, but I think you might be underestimating just how pervasive the Nice GUY TM thing is. Like, a lot of guys think sex is an equation. That is, if I do Flowers + Listen + Say I’m a Nice Guy + Be Patient + Hear complaints about ex-boyfriends + Drive her to/from places = sex for me!!! And practically every cultural trope tells guys that they will get the pretty girl at the end, even if she doesn’t seem to be sexually interested in him at first (my God, like EVERY romantic comedy, and this cracked… Read more »
The majority of guys on NGOKC were racist assholes who call women bitches and sluts, but it was the others who really troubled me. As far as the entitlement, I think you’re exactly right. SOmeone even said it here. That society trains men to push “button A” to get women to like them, and it allegedly does nothing, and so they get frustrated. Then they figure out that you actually push “button B” and women like you… But think about that model. That there is something you can do, some formula, that will “get you women”… Women are the result.… Read more »
Just exist. Don’t try. If the way you exist isn’t working, then sure, get some advice from a guy like Dr. NerdLove who is all about respect and finding tools for actually starting conversations, but NerdLove doesn’t offer the women up as the prize, as the reward. I agree with most of your article and comments in the thread, Joanna, but not this bit. Just existing without trying is a fantastic dating strategy if you’re an attractive person in the gender that’s not expected to take the initiative in seeking out dates, but for most men, it’s the equivalent of… Read more »
As for Nerdlove, he dresses up his PUA in feminist finery
And so many women, including feminists, keep on falling for it.
I’ve been sexually frustrated countless times in my life at sex I wanted but couldn’t have, but not once have I ever thought someone owed it to me, or felt “entitled” in the way so many Feminists™ accuse guys like me of feeling. Precisely. Thank you. Frustration and disappointment with being sexually rejected do not automatically equate to “male sexual entitlement” (yet another entry in the apparently endlessly growing set of clinical-sounding terminology that invariably means “men are bad / men are at fault / men are the problem / etc”). If I care about a woman, if I’m attracted… Read more »
“I think it’s grossly unfair to automatically characterize any man (or woman) who’s disappointed in a relationship or social interaction that’s fallen short of his (or her) desires as some sort of premeditated, predatory, selfish manipulator who’s upset at failing to extract a sexual prize from the other party.”
Very well said.
I’ve got some agreement, and some disagreement. Precisely. Thank you. Frustration and disappointment with being sexually rejected do not automatically equate to “male sexual entitlement” Absolutely right. If I care about a woman, if I’m attracted to her and wish to develop a deeper relationship with her, and if she doesn’t want that and turns me away, am I not allowed to have any feelings about it? If those feelings are disappointment, frustration, grief, etc., then absa-friggin’-lutely. And it looks like the “Nice Guys of OK Cupid” tumblr included cases where they were actually bullying this kind of guy. That… Read more »
Very well said indeed, Tim.
I appreciate your thoughtful reply, Tim. Invariably? Really? Point taken. I would happily substitute “all too often” for “invariably”. Be careful you don’t interpret “this problem exists among men” (which is what all “male sexual entitlement” means) as “this is a problem in all or most men, and it comes entirely from them”. And don’t generalize the cases where someone does actually blame men onto everyone who uses that phrase. “Male sexual entitlement” doesn’t imply “this problem exists among men” to me. What it implies to me is that there is an inherent linkage between “sexual entitlement” and being male,… Read more »
Counter-examples for you, with the same kind of language: Male Chronic Pelvic Pain Syndrome Female Athlete Triad Syndrome Canine Epileptoid Cramping Syndrome The phrasing doesn’t imply more than that the problems are present in some males, some females, or some canines. (I work in linguistics, and noun phrases where you use one noun as an adjective on another are the bane of my existence–precisely because it’s impossible to nail down what the phrase means just by looking at it. It indicates some kind of relationship, but not what kind. Common usage patters sometimes make specific meanings more or less likely,… Read more »
Interesting point about the noun-used-as-adjective issue.
Linguistics is fun. 🙂 Examples of what I’m talking about: “leather book” vs “geography book” vs “nuisance book” vs “joke book” — Most people would read those as “book made of leather” (probably not “book about leather”), and “book about geography”, and “book that is a nuisance”. The last could either be “book full of jokes” or “book that is a joke”, but you can’t tell without looking at the context. “dog collar” vs “restraint collar” — “collar used for dogs” and “collar for restraining” “dog sweater” –Could be either “sweater for dogs” or “sweater with dogs on it”. Or… Read more »
I’m not saying its not a problem. I’m skeptical of the efficacy of public mockery as a tool to remedy this. As well, I’m appalled that one person considers themselves enough of an authority to determine who should be so mocked, especially when many choices have little to do with actual Nice Guyism.
Again, what does ones beliefs on evolution have to do with being a Nice Guy? I’ve read profiles where women have actually stated that the Earth is bigger than the Sun. Should I put them on a tumblr?
I’m with you, D. I can’t believe the shitty things I used to say. Not long ago, I casually used the word “Retarded” to mean stupid – concepts, not people – “ghetto” to mean janky. I was sort of just willfully careless. Then a friend was like, “You just sound like an asshole” and I stopped. But it happened privately, and I stopped and have talked about it publicly in an attempt to be clear about the fact that it’s uncool, but what if someone had publicly mocked me when I was in a vulnerable stage for it? Would I… Read more »
Then a friend was like, “You just sound like an asshole” and I stopped. But it happened privately, and I stopped and have talked about it publicly in an attempt to be clear about the fact that it’s uncool, but what if someone had publicly mocked me when I was in a vulnerable stage for it? Would I have stopped saying it, as I did when someone just talked to me about it? Exactly. We are now at a point where people that want to make a name for themselves will try to make such moments public. Yes they might… Read more »
I’m not saying its not a problem. I’m skeptical of the efficacy of public mockery as a tool to remedy this. As well, I’m appalled that one person considers themselves enough of an authority to determine who should be so mocked, especially when many choices have little to do with actual Nice Guyism. Again, what does ones beliefs on evolution have to do with being a Nice Guy? I’ve read profiles where women have actually stated that the Earth is bigger than the Sun. Should I put them on a tumblr? Here’s a way to check on whether or not… Read more »
Unless he is a trans guy, then yeah, he isn’t talking about the abortion of a fetus inside of him, so he is talking about violating someone else’s bodily integrity by forcing them to carry a fetus to term. Even in cases where he only dates people with a similar ideology, whether someone considers abortion a viable option can change drastically once it is no longer an abstract question. His only ethically sound option while holding that opinion is to only have sex with people who do not have uteruses until he agrees with someone to immediately start a family.
“I appreciate your answer, but I think you might be underestimating just how pervasive the Nice GUY TM thing is. Like, a lot of guys think sex is an equation. That is, if I do Flowers + Listen + Say I’m a Nice Guy + Be Patient + Hear complaints about ex-boyfriends + Drive her to/from places = sex for me!!!” So is it too much to ask that women not accept the flowers, and the extra attention, and the sympathetic ear, and the rides, (etc, etc) when they’re coming from a man she isn’t interested in? Or at very… Read more »
Right? It would be nice if just once a woman could tell a “Nice Guy”, “you know I appreciate all these things you do for me, but you should stop, and need to stop because it’s not healthy for you or me. I don’t want to lead you on by thinking that all your attention is going to get us to a romantic place because it won’t. We can still be friends, but if you chose to no longer be my friend I respect that decision.” Instead what happens most of the time is the woman benefits from the poor… Read more »
But then they couldn’t enjoy all the perks of being chased and then accuse men of “thinking they are entitled to sex!”.
Maybe, just maybe, some men get pissed off that women sit back and allow them to invest time, energy, and money into something the woman knows from day one isn’t going to work out.
“Maybe, just maybe, some men get pissed off that women sit back and allow them to invest time, energy, and money into something the woman knows from day one isn’t going to work out.” I wonder how many play innocent by asserting they don’t realize the guy likes them. Or do they think a man giving them gifts, extra attention, etc that he doesn’t give others means he simply views her as a friend? I’ve known women who would milk this, users, I think they’re the ones that cause the most resentment, at least they did in me. I’ve been… Read more »
A few thoughts. 1.) If she says “be patient”, then that sure sounds like leading him on. You have a point there. 2.) If the guy has told her that his purpose is to develop a romantic relationship, then you have a point. (Though it’s different if she;s told him it’s not going to happen.) 3.) If we’re talking about the guy doing things that go beyond just the actions of a good friend, then you have a point. (Though that can be hard to judge, and different people can reasonably have different concepts of what counts as “beyond just… Read more »
4.) If a guy is acting like a good friend, he can expect no more than good friendship in return. Don’t you agree? That would make sense except for the common social narrative, which comes primarily from women, that the way to a woman’s heart is by being her friend. All of the traits that we associate with friendship are the very things many women say they want in a potential partner. If men are told to be women’s friends first before ever hoping for something more, is not rather hypocritical for women to call foul for men doing exactly… Read more »
I continue to marvel at the double bind men are put in: if they are direct about their sexual interests, they are creeps. If they are indirect about their sexual interests, they are losers. If they follow the script women feed them to the letter, they have “motivations other than being nice for its own sake”. This reminds me of a conversation that some of my friends and I had with one of our female friends. Basically, she was saying that the way a guy can express interest and convince her to accept him as a boyfriend is for him… Read more »
For myself, I’ve never been in that double bind. I’ve certainly heard the idea taught that friendship is a good foundation for a romantic relationship. I agree with that idea–any good serious romantic relationship is going to be a friendship at its core, along with particular kinds of intimacy (physical and emotional), built-up trust, etc. And I’ve always preferred romantic relationships that grow out of friendship first. On the other hand, I asked out my current (>1-year) girlfriend when we didn’t know each other well, and we’ve built our friendship in the context of romance. That works too, as long… Read more »
The problem is that most nice guys do not just want to be someone’s friend; they want a relationship and they are following the social script you described above to get that result. You can argue that social scripts do not apply in every individual case, however, it is unlikely that most people are so socially inept that they would not know someone has more than a platonic interest in them. One can then understand the frustration of having a group of people tell you what to do to get their attention only to have them constantly ignore you when… Read more »
The problem is that most nice guys do not just want to be someone’s friend; they want a relationship and they are following the social script you described above to get that result. Just to be sure, you mean the script you described, right? I question “most”. I can buy “most guys have had a least one female friend they’re also interested in”–I’ve had several. But not “In most man/woman friendships, the guy wants it to be more.” But I could be wrong about that (especially if we’re talking about heavily-invested friendships), and it’s not important to my point anyway.… Read more »
Just to be sure, you mean the script you described, right? No, I meant this: “[…]any good serious romantic relationship is going to be a friendship at its core, along with particular kinds of intimacy (physical and emotional), built-up trust, etc.” Unless you think that the wording of “the way to a woman’s heart is through friendship” implies not just a necessary (and even helpful) condition, but also a sufficient condition? What I am saying is that you are trying to have it both ways. On one hand you are saying that friendship is necessary for building a relationship, but… Read more »
By the way, do you really mean “if they are direct about their sexual interests, they are creeps”? As in, you ask a women out on a date upfront and her response is “you’re a creep”? I have personally seen guys who acted like creeps and were blind to the creepy aspects of their own behavior. I’m sure they felt victimized. On the flip side, I’ve heard of women who had a hair-trigger unreasonable “that’s creepy” reaction. Let’s not generalize that to “women”, though. Even if that actually is your experience, your experience isn’t other people’s experience. And each new… Read more »
Oh, one last thing.
Will you agree that’s how it should work? That we should all proclaim and defend it from the rooftops, men and women together?
“That would make sense except for the common social narrative, which comes primarily from women, that the way to a woman’s heart is by being her friend. All of the traits that we associate with friendship are the very things many women say they want in a potential partner.” But, here, the traits needed for friendship are a *necessary but not sufficient* set of qualities for a relationship. So, for instance, my husband is honest, interesting, funny, cool, and quirky. So are a bunch of my friends. But I only fuck my husband because (a) the whole marriage thing; and… Read more »
Apparently I’m fictional as well. All but one of my intimate relationships began as a friendship and the attraction developed over time as we got to know one another.
Huh. Me too. All but one of mine. Sort of. In two of them, a friend turned me down initially then changed her mind. In another, an acquaintance and I dated for a couple months before she was actually attracted to me. (We were both upfront about our feelings during that time. And it took me that long to develop something like a crush, too.) “I’m in the wrong place” does have a point, though. Maybe we should say that there’s “initial attraction”, which a pretty quick-to-determine process, and then there’s attraction that develops over time. Both definitely exist, and… Read more »
Completely agree. Many people are initially attracted to one another but choose to be friends (for whatever reason). But I suspect that it is really unusual to develop an intimate relationship with someone you met and categorised as purely platonic.
Then I must be really unusual, in addition to being fictional, because I’ve been in multiple intimate relationships that began as purely platonic friendships and evolved into something deeper over time.
In each case, I wasn’t attracted to the other person initially. At all. And never expected I would be. But spending time getting to know each of them changed my perception and my view.
Then, sir, my hat is off to you.
Count me in too. Every long term relationship (except my first and that was it’s own horror story) I’ve had started as friendship. I’ve mentioned before that women just flat out don’t like me when we first me. I’m not tall or athletic, I don’t have any “lines”, and I’m not good conversing with people I’ve just met of either gender. The women in question were all forced to spend time with me either through work or mutual friendships, and of course since they actually were forced to get to know the real me they all became attracted to me.… Read more »
The sex as an equation thing is troubling to me because it eliminates women’s *desire* from sex. Just because you accept a lift (or whatever) from someone, it does not mean that you’ve led them to believe you will be having sex with them. That’s fucking weird. The Nice GuyTM thing, like much of life, is best summed up by this XKCD comic: http://xkcd.com/513/ To answer your specific question of: “So is it too much to ask that women not accept the flowers, and the extra attention, and the sympathetic ear, and the rides, (etc, etc) when they’re coming from… Read more »
“The sex as an equation thing is troubling to me because it eliminates women’s *desire* from sex. Just because you accept a lift (or whatever) from someone, it does not mean that you’ve led them to believe you will be having sex with them. That’s fucking weird.” Yes, the whole sex as an equation thing is also bother me as a guy. I want to have sex with woman who want to have sex with me because she likes me and she find me sexy and hot. Not because I gave her something and she give me sex as a… Read more »
Preach, man. Preach. When you hear men or women talking about how they train/earn their way through sex, they seem less like a functioning couple and more like a pet and its owner. Ugh. My husband feels very much the way you do (in wanting to feel desired; as opposed to wanting to earn sex through a series of brownie points and whiny complaints) and I really respect that. Which makes him principled, and sexy, and all sorts of cool. I agree with you that some guys may want a relationship even more than sex but the same issue still… Read more »
Curious.
How is “wanting to feel desired” *not* being dependent on someone else for validation?
Isn’t being comfortable with who you are, in many ways depending on getting the validation you need?
Or, if you consider it a slippery slope, where do you draw the line?
“Yes. It is too much to ask. Because if a person says that they’re a “friend” then, you know what, friends do stuff for each other like give lifts and have conversations. All without the expectation of sex (I know, right?). Unless someone makes their intentions clear, like, ‘Hey, I really like you and I would like to get to know you better. Why don’t we go out on a date?’ There is very little ambiguity in that. Obviously, there’s a huge risk of rejection, which is why people go the friends angle. Less risk of rejection. Dude, if you’re… Read more »
Really, could it possibly be that maybe a guy wouldn’t want to keep spending time with someone who he is developing feelings for, and getting his hopes up about, if she isn’t interested in him?
You’re certainly in the wrong place if you’re going to keep the mindset that everything men do when it comes to women is just to have sex with them, and as such you can take advantage of men and then write them off with “You’re just mad that I won’t fuck you!”
Drew, I seriously don’t think that guys are just hanging out with women because they want sex. Quite the opposite. I have many male friends. It is entirely platonic. And that’s pretty obvious given that I’ve been married for a few years, and my husband is awesome. I don’t think we’re working at cross purposes here. I don’t think men owe women anything, like lifts home or flowers. Not at all. But, if someone offers it, I think anyone is entitled to take up the offer as stated. If it’s offered with the purpose of really only being worthwhile if… Read more »
“Drew, I seriously don’t think that guys are just hanging out with women because they want sex. Quite the opposite. I have many male friends. It is entirely platonic. And that’s pretty obvious given that I’ve been married for a few years, and my husband is awesome.” I was speaking more to the dynamic where a man meets you and starts going out of his way to do things for you. It’s not always “I’ll do this and that and they she’ll have sex with me!” Often it’s “I’ll do this and that and then she’ll realize I’m a good… Read more »
I’ve known a few men who were very strategic in their approach. Without stating it, I think their strategy was to overwhelm a woman with kindeness to either demonstrate their dateability (kindness=dateworthy) or to wear down her defenses. Either strategy is pretty dicky in that it doesn’t recognize the woman’s desire or lack as part of the deal, and it perverts “kindness” into some intrumental thing you do as a means to an end. Definitely dicky. However, if a man makes it clear that he’s interested in a woman and behaves more like a boyfriend than a friend, he might… Read more »
My comment is a response to “in the wrong place”.
” Either strategy is pretty dicky in that it doesn’t recognize the woman’s desire or lack as part of the deal, .”
I disagree with this part. In most cases, it’s about trying to gain or earn a woman’s desire through acts of kindness and/or generosity.
One man I’m thinking of consistently applied this strategy with women who weren’t interested. I don’t mean indifferent, but clearly not interested. Coincidentally, I knew a woman who used the same strategy.
Point being, in most cases there is a spark (or tingle) or there isn’t. It can develop, but I don’t think it can be elicited through good acts.
Just as a clarification, you can’t earn desire or sex. It’s not the way healthy relationships work.
I totally agree, actually. I just disagreed with Adrian’s point that the guys who try to earn a woman’s desire are not recognizing the issue of her desire.
I’ve been given flowers by a bunch of my female friends as well as (male) work colleagues. Unless it comes with some kind of note or something equally indicative, I wouldn’t assume romantic overtures. You’ve got to appreciate, women are just as insecure as men. Many might think, ‘Hey, flowers means he’s totally into me, right?’ but then you second-guess with ‘But then he would have said something more obvious or directly asked me on a date or whatever’ so you can get mixed signals for a number of reasons. I assume the guy moving softly because he doesn’t want… Read more »
Would you say then men should indicate interest very early in friendship or just avoid friendship and ask out strangers? So much seems to conflict with other things I’ve heard from women who want men to like them for them, and to do that you need to get to know them which usually means friendship (or creepy stalker shit that is not ok). We’d have to stick to online dating or becoming friends with someone before asking them out to know more about their personality, asking out strangers could only really be based on looks alone and a 1-4hour max… Read more »
Good question and, unfortunately, I have no answer. I think it depends on how risk-averse people are. If you’re risk averse, you probably prefer to get to know someone before you’re in a situation where there’s a lot of social pressure (e.g. dating). Or, if someone is high on the personality trait of Openness to New Experience, then you could probably ask them out and if you seemed funny or interesting enough, then they’d do it just to see what happens next. The thing is, I really don’t think the friend-zone exists. In that, I think that people who have… Read more »
I might differ from others in my definition of friendzone, where the women treats him a bit more than a friend but isn’t a lover, will use him for comfort, etc. Treating him like a sexless bf, the responsibilities? of a relationship without the sex. May also extend to those who say they feel the friendship is too valuable to risk on a relationship, as in they’re afraid of it not working out but I dunno how common that is and it often sounds like an excuse to not date. Maybe the most damaging aspect of it is that it… Read more »
I appreciate your answer, but I think you might be underestimating just how pervasive the Nice GUY TM thing is. Like, a lot of guys think sex is an equation. That is, if I do Flowers + Listen + Say I’m a Nice Guy + Be Patient + Hear complaints about ex-boyfriends + Drive her to/from places = sex for me!!!
Actually, I have never met I guy in real life who had that view on getting sex, except for the few for whom it actually worked that way…
If I took romantic movies as a sign, it’d be that women want to cheat and that true love comes from cheating on your fiance. Or I’d just look at movies as I dunno…movies? What I did take from movies and other people is the romantic view of falling in love with your best friend, or at least being good friends with a woman before dating them. I have a feeling this probably doesn’t work for many women and chances of being seen as a friend vs a potential lover increases (zomg friendzone). Ladies, does not showing you’re interested in… Read more »
Woman and society creating these nice guys, and now they’re pissed that the nice guys are noticing that the men who didn’t cave to the laundry list of requirements are attracting woman. This debates on what a nice guy truly is will never end, because societys view of a nice guy will always be someone that lives their life for everyone else.
Is what they are doing legal? what if one of the guys sue them?
Another thing comes to mind here: in Shwyzer’s Jezebel piece he writes that no one is entitled to sex “except with themselves.” This reminds me of someone’s comment on here that female masturbation is considered liberating while male masturbation is considered pathetic and icky.
Hi there, I’m a regular Jezebellian. There is no way anyone who is a regular over there thinks that masturbation (whether male or female) is wrong. You’re entitled to do whatever you want with your body. Obviously, because it is yours. You may have gotten that vibe because some people object to women being used in fantasies (that is, objectifying them) to the point where it creates a situation of irrealis – and men expect women to behave like a fantasy in real life (which links to a broader discourse of how unreal (most) porn is and why men/women shouldn’t… Read more »
I wasn’t really making a judgement on Jezebel, just Shwyzer’s comment, which seemed snarky. But seriously – what is one supposed to think of a song like “U And Ur Hand” or the general feeling that male masturbation is considered sad a pathetic?
I can’t hold tears in my eyes every time I read an article about Nice Guys™. This kind of article always bring me back to my dark lonely time as a teenager. I admit I’m an ex Nice Guys™. Back in high school I was the shy guy who only have few close friends in high school ( none of them is female). I was the guy who never have a date with a girl. I was the socially awkward guy who couldnt hold a proper conversation more than five minutes with a girl. I was the guy who prefer… Read more »
Now, it was your reply that just made me cry. Because, yes, it is very depressing, it is a feeling of deep apathy and sloth, that life is not worth living – and suicide seems the only reasonable choice. Yes. I feel it right now. You see, it’s kind of confusing. I really thought I loved women. That I liked to hear them talking about relationships, their smile, the way they giggle. While this is true on some level, on another level it was just a lie I was telling myself. It was only one night, in deep meditation, that… Read more »
First, suicide is never the only reasonable choice. Please, we implore you to reach out to someone who can help with the feelings of suicide. There are tons and tons of men in the world who will tell you that they felt as hopeless as you do right now. And then they find love and happiness and have beautiful lives. But you can’t do that if you stay in this depression. Reach out to someone you trust and find a medical professional to help you. Not just for you, but for the relationship you could have in the future. As… Read more »
“I don’t care if women like me, women are sluts and bitches” like these fucking assholes do, haha
And that’s no different with those fucking assholes women who said ” I don’t care if men like me, men are shallow and jerks ”
Both are fucking assholes
http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org
800-273-TALK
We’ve been told this is the best one, by lots of professional organizations.
Oh, don’t worry too much about that! Perhaps I should have written my first paragraph differently. I said that suicide SEEMS the only reasonable choice. But that’s just a feeling that I watch closely inside me day after day. It is like a child crying for my attention, I don’t believe in what this “inner voice” says. Just like John, I slowly began making some changes so that one day I might eventually become a really good man. Change is slow, and perhaps the most painful part is taking full responsibility for what I am today and what I want… Read more »
Funny thing is while this is happening there are articles, sites and shows about woman complaining about their love life.
Instead of the anger and mockery men get, woman get sympathy and support.