Danny wonders why men must be on the constant search for a woman to have sex with in order to prove their value as men.
—
Dear Frat Brother,
By now I’m sure that you have noticed that the email you recently sent out about “Luring your Rapebait” has gained quite a bit of attention and quite a few responses.
As others have said there is a lot going on in your email that’s unhealthy when it comes to dating and having sex with women. And while that’s true I noticed something in the very first paragraph before you even get into conduct with women at the party.
I’m talking about what you said here:
“Alright chods, some of you could use some help on how to mack and succeed at parties. Mostly pledges do, but some bros could use a review. For anytime throughout the party… If you are standing by yourself at any point, YOU ARE OUTTA HERE!!! If you are talking to a brother of your pledge brothers when there are girls just standing around, YOU ARE OUTTA HERE!!!”
What I see here is something that has been treated like a defining pillar of masculinity for a very long time and (I think) serves as a basis for the things that follow in the rest of your email.
You’re holding your pledges and brothers to a condition that they must be there with the express purpose of finding a sex partner. You even threaten to kick out guys that do so much as stand alone while women are around or talk to a pledge/brother while there are women around.
Why do you feel the need to hold them to that condition?
Why must they be on the constant search for a woman to get together with in order to justify their presence at the party?
I can understand that sex is a desirable thing but I worry that you, just like many others, place too much priority on having sex with women as being a necessary part of masculinity.
Have you considered what affects this pressure can have on guys, namely guys who are in a position where they need to gain the approval of others? Don’t you think that pressure can lead to them doing things that range from immoral to illegal in order to gain favor and approval?
Yes, you can say that “They choose to do that stuff.” That would be true. But why do you exert such pressure in the first place? Why expect those pledges to be on such a vigilant lookout for sex partners? Why not just let nature take care itself and just throw a party and if people want to get together they get together on their own rather because they might get tossed out of the party and shamed for not looking for women?
The thing is the view on masculinity is quite chaotic these days and things like what’s in your letter are contributing to the chaos. And it also doesn’t help a lot of the discourse on addressing it is centered around women. While that’s important I think it has to start with us, with men. With that in mind I have to say that one of the biggest things to get clear is that how sexually a man is with women shouldn’t be used as an indication of how much of a man he is. Let the pledges be when it comes with their sexuality, because when you get down to it—exactly how does their sexuality factor into the roles and responsibilities they are taking on as members of the fraternity?
Photo: Flickr/The 5th Ape
for mony
Hi Tamen
You are right.
✺”Or the pressure lead to them accepting/internalizing sexual abuse they suffered from women”✺
In my life I have known four men that told me episodes of what obviously was childhood sexual abuse, by women but they did not interpret it as such.
Ingmar Bergman also has a story like that in his auto biography,
Why Is Chasing Sex With Women a Requirement of Masculinity?
I think that the “requirement” lies within being able to achieve what you desire, more than in “chasing sex” specifically.
The measure of success, whatever way you swing it, is the ability to achieve what you desire.
And most adult people desire sex, in some form and at some point in life.
Is it because the flashy alpha men at the top are narcissistic predators fueled by testosterone and ego….so the rest of the men feel that they need to emulate them in order to get into that vaunted secret fraternity? Sort of like Kennedy Sr. and Johnny Carson, who operated by their own rules….the more female sexual attention, the bigger their egos get? Didn’t Johnny Carson feel crushed when his second wife Joanne was carrying on an affair with Frank Gifford (he wept in front of a group of his “brothers” after raiding her secret love nest while packing heat…he expected… Read more »
yeah men are just creature made from “EGO”
ego ego ego ego ego ego ego
Is it because the flashy alpha men at the top are narcissistic predators fueled by testosterone and ego….so the rest of the men feel that they need to emulate them in order to get into that vaunted secret fraternity? Yes. And it doesn’t help that women are lining up to be with those “narcissitic predators” either. Johnny was chasing “pu–y” all around town, but it still was not enough for him….he needed all of the attention of the most attractive women on him… Well if he was chasing other women all around town I take that at least some of… Read more »
“The thing is the view on masculinity is quite chaotic these days and things like what’s in your letter are contributing to the chaos. And it also doesn’t help a lot of the discourse on addressing it is centered around women. While that’s important I think it has to start with us, with men. With that in mind I have to say that one of the biggest things to get clear is that how sexually a man is with women shouldn’t be used as an indication of how much of a man he is. Let the pledges be when it… Read more »
There is no need for you to answer for what a single random frat boy says or does,anymore than all black people should answer for random gun violence.
I can uderstand how you feel but orwriter has a point in that no man other than the one that wrote that letter should be held responsible for that letter. But in the end one of the main reasons I wrote this is because all the responses I had seen so far, while correct, would skip over the effects of this mentality on men and jump straight into how it affects women as if that’s the only part worth talking about (seriously I think you’d be a little pressed to find a response to the letter that does more or… Read more »
Danny Could it be possible that what you talk about is more specific to that culture?Frat and sororitiy culture represent a small subtext of comparatively elite mainstream culture.That lifestyle is available to only a few. It is difficult to accept the code of behavior at that frat house as a metaphor for the common behavior of men/boys in general. I have never heard of or been to a party where such a thing was required.Why would anyone go to such a party in the first place when there are plenty of other opportunities to party and have sex with random… Read more »
I was a member of a fraternity. Our values included service, commitment, brotherhood, and striving for excellence. I realize that not all fraternities are created equal, but at least on paper, all fraternities claim to hold certain values. Despite the stereotypes and media images, fraternities and other organizations of brotherhood are supposed to strive towards a higher sense of honor and purpose. This letter brought shame on everyone who has ever been a member of a fraternity.
It is difficult to accept the code of behavior at that frat house as a metaphor for the common behavior of men/boys in general. However such behavior goes on in “jock” life which is much more open that greek life. From there you can see such behavior and conversations going on in basic locker room (and not necessarily in connection with a school sport but just after a basic gym class). You can also see this type of behavior in basic conversations between guys who have no ties to sports or greek life. And as far as being reckless and… Read more »
Money, success with women, success in your job. Maybe deep down a lot of men feel lonely, and think they need to have multiple partners to be successful? Could be that those who lead in society prefer to have multiple partners and thus their leadership n charisma is mimicked by others?
@ Archy What’s up Archy?! Why is it presumed to be a character flaw if someone prefers to have multiple sex partners? The problem I see occurs if there is dishonesty. Many women don’t mind sleeping with alpha type men who have partners. Many women will gladly stand in line for the “honor”. That reason alone was enough for me to transform myself,at least visually, into this kind of man.I also wanted to be treated better,by men and women.Alpha males are,for the most part, treated better than other males character types.It had nothing to do with sexism or wanting to… Read more »
Hear, hear. This is enforcement of a strict standard of masculinity. Conform or be punished.
Another effect of this attitude is male virgin shaming, or just shaming anyone in general who doesn’t conform to some arbitrary standard of manhood. It’s stupid.
I thought this was a free country.
It would be best to remove any sexual inclinations in a social setting. To be able to see the big man the same as the small man, the attractive woman the same as the homely. If we were able to do this our lives would be richer by far. The older you get the closer to being able to view groups of people as equals becomes more normal. As a young man you are looking to mate. Its an unusual woman attracted to a wallflower.
Exactly. Why should my self-worth be determined by what a woman thinks of me?
Feminists are always talking about how they’re strong women who don’t need men to validate their self-worth. Men should do the same and declare that our self-worth isn’t determined by how many girlfriends we have or whether women find us attractive.
I am not sure that those women who claim to be completely self determined are.Even if a small percentage of women can free themselves from the burden of judgement it would be of little consequence.Bodyimage issues wouldn’t be so prevalent if women were not strongly defined by the biological needs of men.We define each other-the masculine and the feminine.Women define what men are.The outcome of which is discussed on GMP ad naseum. The influence of women in shaping the future of masculinity,especially feminists,is very strong on GMP. At the same time they reject male defining influence on them,creating conflict in… Read more »
Many of these “questions” have a “have you stopped beating your wife?” flavor. Shades of HS.
By chance could explain where you get that vibe from Hank?
I’m simply asking why is there an expectation for guys to validate their masculinity by going after women.
As I understand it the “have you stopped beating your wife” ploy is one that is meant to throw someone off balance by backhandedly accusing them of doing something (with absolutely no evidence, just a declaration) in expectation of getting them to focus on the accusation rather than the topic at hand.
Do you think I’m trying to do that here?
Hi Danny
Well said!
✺”Have you considered what affects this pressure can have on guys, namely guys who are in a position where they need to gain the approval of others? Don’t you think that pressure can lead to them doing things that range from immoral to illegal in order to gain favor and approval?”✺
Or the pressure lead to them accepting/internalizing sexual abuse they suffered from women. Case in point the Chris Brown interview where he stated that he lost his virginity at age 8 to a 14-15 year old girl, or in this recent case from Norway where a man essentially was fined 1,000 USD for indecent public behaviour when two women performed oral sex on him while he was drunk and according to him passed out (the police who issued the fine had trouble rousing him and getting a response from him when they arrived at the scene so he was clearly… Read more »
Excellent addition Tamen. I really wish I had brought that up.
Because it’s fun.
Raegus it’s one thing to do it for yourself but its quite another to impose it on others.
Yeah but you’re missing the point of what he said, I think. It’s about getting usually shy and reserved guys amped up and talking to girls, as opposed to just being an asshole. The more girls you talk to, the easier it becomes to talk to girls.
Okay, Raegus, it is certainly true that the more you do something the easier it becomes to do it. But that doesn’t answer Danny’s original question, which is, essentially, “why is ‘getting chicks’ a necessary component of proving your manhood to other men?” That is the game that gets played, and it’s pretty unhealthy for all involved. I love sex, a lot. And I spend most of my life helping people figure out how to have the sex they want. And the one thing that I see time and time again is that when people are having sex to prove… Read more »
Hi Alyssa
I agree
✺” Why is your sex life anyone else’s business,
at all?✺”
It is private. And any man has the right decide this for himself.
There can be some homophobia going on. You have to prove to others that you are not gay?
“why is ‘getting chicks’ a necessary component of proving your manhood to other men?”
Because that is sort of the capital you measure yourself or others with.
Its the same way with buying expensive suits, cars, or other states symbols to showcase your financial success.
Having sex with a lot of women shows your desirable and that translates into all sorts of other forms of currency including things like helping to get a good job, teachers respecting you, having sex with more attractive women.
Because, Allysa, it takes skill to get women. It’s like a competition and all straight men are playing the game. It’s like in the future asking why is proficiency at videogames a necessary component of proving your manhood, which it would be if every straight man played them. Chasing girls is a competition, the higher your score the better you’re doing. But absolutely any kind of competition could substitute chasing girls as a method of proving your manhood. Be it sports, videogames, literally any competition. The party culture you speak of has been misinterpreted by outsiders. It’s not about putting… Read more »
“That is the game that gets played, and it’s pretty unhealthy for all involved.” Neither myself, nor my male friends, really give a damn about “proving our manhood.” We pursue women because we like sex and we want to meet someone we can settle down with. We encourage each other to pursue women and congratulate each other when we get somewhere with them because we care about each other and want our friends to be happy. Speaking as a pathologically shy and awkward guy who didn’t even date until just before his 30th birthday I would have probably benefitted from… Read more »
We pursue women because we like sex and we want to meet someone we can settle down with. We encourage each other to pursue women and congratulate each other when we get somewhere with them because we care about each other and want our friends to be happy. Agreed. Nothing wrong with trying to get together with women because it’s what you want. Speaking as a pathologically shy and awkward guy who didn’t even date until just before his 30th birthday I would have probably benefitted from a little peer pressure to pursue women, rather than sit at home desperately… Read more »
Yeah but you’re missing the point of what he said, I think. It’s about getting usually shy and reserved guys amped up and talking to girls, as opposed to just being an asshole. The more girls you talk to, the easier it becomes to talk to girls. So the best way to motivate shy guys is to hold their manhood hostage (on the grander scale) and to shame them by kicking them out of parties? If the goal is to encourage guys to talk to women there MUST be healthier ways of doing so. I’ll be honest and say that… Read more »
When you’re the kind of guy joining a frat, yes it’s a pretty good motivator.
And as I ask at the end of this post, “What does a guy’s sexuality have to do with the roles and responsibilities he’d be taking on in the fraternity?”
I speak to women as human beings, not as potential sexual conquests. They’re someone’s daughters, sisters, mothers, aunts, etc. I expect men to treat my sister and mother the same way.
And I don’t measure my self-worth with a tally of how many women I’ve convinced to have sex with me.
I think you’re tapping into a key part of the discussion of masculinity: the fact that so much of men’s performance of gender is done for other men. This is often lost in discussions of catcalling, for instance. I don’t think men catcall women in the hopes that the women will actually respond. Has any man actually picked up a woman that way? Men catcall women in order to gain masculine capital among men. Ultimately (for heterosexual men, anyway), that masculine capital might translate into better odds of attracting a female partner, but it’s a very indirect process at best.
I think you’re tapping into a key part of the discussion of masculinity: the fact that so much of men’s performance of gender is done for other men. While a part of of the performance is done for other men I do think its still worth bearing in mind that men are not the only ones holding guys to these conditions. Even this frat brother is threatening to kick guys out if they aren’t looking for women there is still a matter of the women themselves that go for these types of guys because they are seen as “real men”.… Read more »
I’ve had to extricate myself from those social circumstances in the past. I have less guy friends but the ones I do have don’t constantly berate me for being unsuccessful with the ladies or bug me to look at butts all day.
I’m not sure about that Danny. The women that are attracted to the men that are doing this often don’t know that these men are goading each other on. These men keep those tactics a secret from women for a reason. The women find these men attractive because they come across as confident. The confidence they have gained is because they have a host of friends who are backing them up in their performance, so that even if they fail to attract the woman this time, their friends are there to back them up to attract another woman.
If they are hiding this behavior from women then what’s with the ways in which men pass off constant looking, commenting, and ogling of women, in front of the women they are with, as “that just the way men work” or “boys will be boys”?
If they were hiding it they wouldn’t expect women to just accept that such behavior is what guys do.
I’m afraid I don’t understand what you have said, “…what’s with the ways in which men pass off …”
It may be that I have misunderstood you. But it seemed as though you were saying that the women that sleep with these ‘frat boy’ types are aware that these men are goading each other on in order to just ‘bump up numbers’, and that the women as individuals mean very little to them. And that in turn, these women are encouraging the frat boy mentality.
But I could have you wrong.
In some ways yes I mean just that.
Men aren’t maintaining the frat boy mentality on their own unless somehow they are managing to hide all the behavior and/or all the sex they have is rape.
What evidence do you have that these women are aware of the behaviour and are therefore complicit (presuming we think this mob mentality is wrong) in it?
If your evidence is that ‘it’s happening’, that’s not terribly convincing.
That would be women themselves complaining about it and/or they are quick to excuse it when it comes up.
Or is the word of women themselves not convincing that they know its happening.
Your original comment was that the women that they sleep with were aware of what was happening, not just women in general. If the women they are sleeping with are aware that they do not respect them, that implies that they want to be disrespected. It’s possible I suppose. But your comment also seemed to imply that these women are partly responsible for the men’s disrespectful behaviour, and possibly wilfully encouraging it. I wanted to know what your evidence of that is, or at least what causes you to think that.
What cases me to believe that is the way in which women excuse such behavior. Its not just men that use the “boys will be boys” and “oh they’re just men and can’t help themselves” type of excuses.