Last week over at the magazine we featured “A Good Man’s Guide to Catcalling” by Katie Baker. She breaks down the problems with catcalling, citing numerous studies and attempts at curbing the problem—including a post I wrote about New York City’s proposed ban on catcalls.
Katie wrote that woman need to confront their harassers. Men can tell women they’re beautiful, they just need to do it respectfully. Women need to tell men why certain things—however obvious they may be—shouldn’t be said. There is a less threatening way of saying “Goddamn, I’d love a piece of that.”
But is she unfairly grouping all men together here? And what about the male victims of catcalls? Can that even happen?
Demosthenes XXI wrote:
By all means, stand up for yourselves if you feel that some man has gotten out of pocket with you (but please be street-savvy enough to know how to pick your battles). But to come here and place the burden for “defending your honor,” on us collectively does not sit well with me or many other men and being a liberated woman, shouldn’t you be able to stand up for yourself?
Back in November, he also commented on my post about the possible ban on catcalling:
As long as the law is written and enforced equally, then that’s fine.
I have seen men harassed by drunken women out on a night on the town more times that I can count. Are those women going to be held to the law too, or will this be another example of gender-bias in law enforcement?
To that, Laur responded:
One thing men seem to be missing when comparing wolf-whistles by women directed at men is that, according to research by Carol Gardner (link), there is not the same feeling of absolute fear felt by men that women feel.
I know this feeling intimately, for I feel it several times a day.
Thanks to Laur and Demostenes XX for commenting.
But what do you guys think? Is there a double standard here? Are men just expected to easily shrug off a degrading comment? Or, as Laur suggests, is it a valid double standard? And do all men get unfairly lumped in with the catcalling harassers? Let us know what you think.
—Photo Ed Yourdon/Flickr
To everyone who says that female-on-male catcalling isn’t threatening because men are stronger: do you also think that 10-year-old boy wouldn’t be scared by being catcalled by older woman? Because I was sexually very frequently when I was young. Young boys are much weaker than adult people.
My take on this phenomenon is that women still experience it more than men. However, men haven’t been taught about their own sexual/bodily boundaries, which means that in our modern/postmodern culture, men are paradoxically more defenseless when it happens. And acknowleding that fact leads us down the rabbit hole of male circumcision, pressure to not say no to sex (man up!), men who are raped, etc etc. It can lead us all the way to male expendability which is at the core of the male experience, but that may be a stretch for people who are not familiar with men’s… Read more »
My take on this phenomenon is that women still experience it more than men. Really? On the one hand we have a group of people with very clearly defined sexual boundaries who are far more supported when admitting violation of any of those boundaries. And then we have another group of people who are shamed if they set any sort of sexual boundary and openly mocked if they admit violation of those boundaries. My guess is that it is impossible to know how much sexual-boundary violating is going on with men at this time. It seems as though society can’t… Read more »
I find it horrifying when women catcall or physically grab me because I know the double standard that operates in the society around me is strong enough that if I freak out and push her away, *I* will get the blame for being violent. I’m an abuse survivor and I can’t tolerate unwelcome advances from women at all, but I know that the assumptions of everyone else in the room don’t even acknowledge that people like me exist. Their automatic response will be that I pushed first so I am in the wrong, and in the wrong situation (a bar… Read more »
Thanks Felix. I find it fascinating to hear a transgender (if I’m mistaking transexual as transgender incorrectly, I apologize) speak of the discomfort, double standards and misandry they have experienced since transition. I don’t know why, I’m sorry if that bothers you (hopefully it doesn’t), but I still find it fascinating.
I’m glad to see how much intense debate this topic has sparked—which means The Good Men Project Magazine has done its job in creating thought-provoking pieces. Let’s keep the conversation going, folks! Bravo!
On multiple occasions now, I have encountered a group of women who would break out into subtle, or not so subtle, and tantalizing catcalls of their own “Hey cuttie”’s, “how’s it going handsome” and other similar, inviting comments. These were not comments like the male versions that clearly aren’t intended to attract, but actual appeals intended to draw me in… and once I approached (on two occasions. I an no longer willing to approach women in groups that are appearing to be nice to me), looking to strike up a friendly conversation with these women who seemed all friendly and… Read more »
Ryan, I saw your remark at the beginning of this post: “There is a less threatening way of saying “Goddamn, I’d love a piece of that.” Again, that reminds me of my wife’s saying; “You can’t ask for it any better than that?” But to get back on the subject, I wear kilts and when I do, I’m often the subject of female (and some male) attention. Some of it positive, some of it rude, but all of it sexual. I’ve been subjected to catcalls and groping while wearing my kilts. As I’m married, discourage it and do my best… Read more »
ITwo anecdotes, not involving myself for obvious reasons but my husband. He was once alone at a friends’ house(his friend had left to get something) with a group of six sixteen year old girls when he was a young adult. They took a liking to him and started chasing him around the house, scratching him and trying to tear off his clothing in the process. He managed to escape and says he found it terrifying. Not the least of which because he would have been held responsible had they succeeded. Another time he was with three older female friends of… Read more »
Nailed that one right on the head, didn’t you? Again, it’s about social constructs that limit our ability to express our sexuality to our own satisfaction, without compromising our personal boundaries. Your husband’s boundaries were very obviously violated and he was obviously shamed by the experience. But his experience is marginalized because of those constructs that marginalize the negative experiences that men suffer. He’s obviously a sexual being because he is in a relationship with you (making an assumption that you two are not in an asexual relationship). But like everyone else, he has his terms of engagement. You obviously… Read more »
But we need to break the social constructs that allow men to choose to not be offended and threatened by such behavior by the focus of their sexual orientation and force women to have to be offended and threatened by the same behavior from their sexual foci. Looking at catcalling as victimizing behavior is not going to achieve that goal. Women seem to see male sexuality as something cheap and nasty or, simply, garbage. Men also often view their sexuality in this way as well, as something tainted and brutish. Conversely, female sexuality is seen as something valuable and is… Read more »
as usual, any time some men do something negative, we’re all held responsible. There is NO other population on the planet that this would be tolerated, any other time it occurs it is rightly called what it is- bigotry. The only man whose behavior I’m responsible for is-me. Therefore, I am doing my part to end catcalling by not enganging it, or being around people who do. That is the extent of my responsibility. Anything else is holding me to an unfair standard based solely on my gender. If you honestly expect men to police each other in this manner,… Read more »
Let me raise my hand here as a woman who regularly speaks up when any conversation heads into gender bashing or when I see women espousing disrespect for men. It has led to some interesting conversations lemme tell ya.
Richard, If you are not a woman (or a girl), please do not presume to speak for them.
Harley Rose seems perfectly willing to speak for men.
Wow, so many valid points on this……
The cliche picture of an ethnic minority doing manual labour……..
Gender double standards………….
Stereotyping or grouping of anybody (specifically guys)……
It all comes down to fear. Do guys (here i go with the steroetyping) feel afraid when a women trys to cat call? Nope.
So dont do it cuz it scares the girls.
“So dont do it cuz it scares the girls.” My brothers wife is terrified of anyone driving with an 8th inch or more snow on the ground (I live in Canada)… Should I not drive? Some fear’s may be justified, others are not rational. Where does the line get drawn? Also, I’m 6’2″, 295lbs and typically have a grumpy demeaner. All my female friends say I’m adorable and one of the sweetest, gentlest, most generous guys they know (despite always looking grumpy). Every one of them admits to being afraid of me when we first met. should I not go… Read more »
“Do guys (here i go with the steroetyping) feel afraid when a women trys to cat call? Nope.”
I don’t agree with you. I am a guy, and I know that it can be fearful to hear a woman catcalling you.
I don’t understand this “lumping” criticism, obviously when we try to discuss catcalling we are doing it with whatever man will listen. This is a problem I’ve had quite a bit and whenever i discuss it with a man he always says he would never do such a thing, yet it’s done and a lot. I think dialogue is dialogue if you see a friend catcalling a woman you’re probably in a better position to tell him to stop. I take issue with the charge that women should address their catcallers, there have been TOO MANY incidences where i have… Read more »
Emma, the situation you cited is different from what is generally known as “catcalling.” If some guy or a group of guys are doing that in a place like a subway platform at night, then that is not “catcalling;” that is harassment verging on possible assault and you have a right to be afraid. That is what I meant in my comment about “picking your battles.” I would not expect a woman to confront anyone under circumstances where they may feel vulnerable. But not to be dismissive, if you are feeling threatened and vulnerable on a busy street at lunchtime… Read more »
Of course men are harassed. I am not going to play the game of who is harassed more often because the frequency doesn’t make it more of a problem (except for on an individual level). I have been catcalled, as have other friends who have also been grabbed. It is alot scarier during the night or when the people doing the grabbing are intoxicated. I have never been terrified for my life, but I have been nervous of getting severely hurt in the past. I have also had to laugh about it and joke about it with my friends and… Read more »
I think the parasites that feed off of rape hysteria also need to be addressed. Rape statistics are constantly being inflated by continually redefining what constitutes rape. If such a law were to be put into effect, it would only bolster the “rape” charges, justifying their actions, just as has been done in the past. the current statistics already (typically) include catcalling or leering as sexual assault, this kind of law would only make those statistics legally represented with arrests. The truth is, the fear many women feel often derives more from the hysteria they experience in the media, then… Read more »
Of course, and they also complain about it too. Women make dirty comments on their butts and their crotches!
Interesting that you’ve chosen a photo of a black man in a hard hat to illustrate this article. The stereotypical catcaller is always a construction worker. This is an issue of class and female hypergamy. I think part of what is being complained about is that women, who are accustomed to treating men of insufficiently high social status as socially and sexually invisible, do not like being forced to notice as a sexual being a man they would usually dismiss without a thought. This is not to say that men who catcall women in public are doing it for innocent… Read more »
I agree with the ethnicity of the construction worker, but wonder why it would be better if he were white. Does that not equate “whiteness” with neutrality–and if so, isn’t That just as racist? I ask that question, not just of you Patrick, but of our society as a whole.
But I/we digress: The focus was on men being catcalled.
My point was not about racism, but more broadly about status. If he was a white man in a hard hat my point would have been the same, because manual work has a low social status, but I thought the fact that the photo used was of a black working man was also worthy of comment, adding race prejudice to the class prejudice. Perhaps that has obscured what I was trying to say.
No–I understood what you meant. Your comment just made me wonder aloud. I wasn’t accusing you of being racist. It’s just an odd catch-22. Include someone of European descent, you leave yourself open for being called exclusionary. Place someone of non-European descent, you run the risk of falling into stereotype.
I hope I’m around for the day kids say, “What were you guys thinking with this racism business?” And that you are, too.
I don’t think all construction workers are necessarily poor, many would probably be in the lower middle class and above, and not all hot women who walk by are necessarily rich either, many will be young secretaries who aren’t any better paid than the men. I think that they whistle in order to compliment. I don’t think the intention is to annoy them out of some class resentment.
When I used to go to clubs, women would grab my bum and compliment me on it. I was flattered actually. If I did that to a woman, though, I’d probably get slapped of course.
We know that’s how it is, but should it be that way?
No, it shouldn’t. As a gay man, I get tons of men AND women who catcall not only with their mouths, but with their hands, and when they do, I return their hands back to them (still attached, fortunately for them) with a sturdy, “WTF? Keep your goddamn hands to yourself!” As a victim (I hate the word) of sexual abuse, I have a SERIOUS problem with unsanctioned touching.
That said, sometimes catcalling can be flattering–it just depends on the words and the intention. Being silly is one thing; being a psychological bully is something else entirely.
I thought Lawrence illustrated an excellent point. Not every guy responds the same way to that sort of thing. What someone might think of as harmless might impact someone else in an very negative way. People need to be sensitive to that.
Needless to say respect is really the issue here and I don’t think you can effectively make someone respect another by passing or enforcing laws. A culture change is needed, but unfortunately I don’t have any answer as to how that might come about.
I took it as a compliment and kept on walking. Now if the gentlemen had started following down the street. I would have said something to defend myself. Cat calling isn’t complimentary. It’s an attack.