Julie Gillis challenges a New York Times Op-Ed that insists that women should show deference to the men who feel they are losing privilege in a changing world.
Recently, in light of the Connecticut shootings, Christy Wampole wrote an article for the NYT Opinionator blogs about young men, guns, their feelings of disassociation and rage.
If the soldier has largely been replaced by the video game character and the drone, if the mothers have proven that they can raise the children alone, if the corporations are less able or willing to guarantee the possibility of upward mobility and some level of respect that comes with title, if someone else can bring home the bacon, what is left for young men?
She then relates how we (women) should show more empathy in the form of deference to these young men who are suffering from losing privilege in the world, who are feeling lost and useless.
Empathy could serve many of us: those who have not yet put themselves in the position of a person who is losing their power and those who can aim a gun at someone without imagining themselves on the other end of the barrel. For those of us who belong to a demographic that is doing increasingly better, a trained empathic reflex toward those we know to be losing for our gains could lead to a more deferential attitude on our part and could constitute an invitation for them to stay with us. To delight in their losses and aim at them the question, “How does it feel?” will only trigger a cycle of resentment and plant the seeds for vengeance. It is crucial to accommodate the pain of others.
Hugo Schwyzer wrote a good takedown of the piece, though I have to admit it was a little too sarcastic for my tastes, but something hit me about what he said and hard.
Wampole doesn’t recommend that women defer to men out of respect for masculine authority, but out of empathy for those suffering from Post-Patriarchal Depression. But why should empathy require deference rather than a passing acknowledgement that yeah, life can be confusing for many young men today? The answer lies in how Wampole — and most of the other peddlers of the myth of male malaise -– see men: fragile, inflexible, and dangerous. We don’t just defer to those we respect, after all. We defer to those we fear in hopes of placating them, and we defer to those whom we think will break (or at the least, opt out) if they aren’t given a steady flow of reassurance that they’re still needed.
Here’s the thing. Real empathy doesn’t mean deferring, because deferring (and then managing the emotions of others) means limiting that person’s capacity for growth while also limiting your own. Real empathy means acknowledging real pain in the other, helping and yes, challenging where truly useful, and allowing that person to grow for real, even if the growth is hard. If the result of sharing power means to these men “losing privilege” and then that means violence, we have a much bigger problem than deferring to men.
We need to work harder on the whole system that trains all of us to believe that some have power and some do not, and that there is always a scarcity of power, rather than a world wherein we all can collaborate and support each other. To that extent, women (all of us, no matter gender or race or orientation) are in that system of dominance and also need to look at ourselves and how we enable and collude with the system, disallowing others to grow, and draining ourselves in the process. The system is big, so big. I feel these things are all just symptoms of the biggest oppression.
But, then what? What of the violence as a reaction to the loss? To the shame and fear?
This remark of Wampole’s sticks in my head;
“To delight in their losses and aim at them the question, “How does it feel?” will only trigger a cycle of resentment and plant the seeds for vengeance. It is crucial to accommodate the pain of others.”
I agree with everything she is saying except the word “accommodate.”
They have pain. So do we. Pain, shame, and the violence it engenders is not limited to a race, or a sex, or an orientation. It’s something that affects us all. But why do the oppressed have to, according to Merriam Webster, make room for and adapt ourselves to their pain? So they won’t shoot us?
Seriously? ‘Cause that seems like blackmail.
We need to see their pain. We need to understand it. But they need to see and understand ours. And they (whoever they are) need to work on themselves and their own places of pain, even as we’ve (whoever we are) have been doing that all while dancing and adapting and accommodating them. This goes for race, class, sex, you name it. But deference? I think we all deserve better than that.
♦◊♦
Meanwhile, let’s really look at our culture and shame. Our culture and self violence, anger and how those things are connected. Here are ample links on shame, research on shame and a great article on war and emotion and hypermasculine voices.
Deferring isn’t empathy. And it isn’t working, not for any of us. But neither does snark and sarcasm, no matter how good it feels. Because yeah, it does cause shame in others which only keeps the cycle going. Solving this is going to take real work, real compassion and real empathy to connect our way through the shifts that must come if we are to survive as a species on this very lonely planet.
Because power, dominance, and control aren’t working all that well for us.
Originally appeared on Julie Gillis’ Blog
Photo courtesy of Flickr/renee_mcgurk
Great. The moderation pixies strike again.
or the website’s software is rather peculiar?!?
“There and back again” doesn’t begin to describe it.
Good grief. I have a post that’s there one minute and gone the next. Time and again.
Danny, please listen to what I am going to write. I am NOT saying that women do not abuse their children; I don’t think many people know how to parent well.
My husband voluntarily went to a group for men who abused their partners (he has been emotionally abusive, never physically abusive). Not one man described being physically abused by his mother; all of them grew up in homes where their fathers physically abused their mothers. This was not a small group.
Admitting that a woman, your mother, abused you is a very hard step. My mother has been verbally abusive to me, I know of others who’ve had their mothers abuse them physically, psychologically, some probably sexually. The majority of child abuse is committed by MOTHERS. Abuse is so common in both genders sadly that I dare say some of those men experienced it but society often doesn’t let people speak ill of mothers in such a manner, you can’t suggest mothers can be abusive if you’re a “loving son”. Would a group of female abusers report their mother had been… Read more »
I think there are several studies with that result, here is one:
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/179/6/482.full
It’s worth noting that not all abused boys become perpetrators:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psychoanalysis-30/201101/talking-about-sexually-abused-boys-and-the-men-they-become
From “The Invisible Boy”…
Finally, there is an alarmingly high rate of sexual abuse by females in the backgrounds of rapists, sex offenders and sexually aggressive men – 59% (Petrovich and Templer, 1984), 66% (Groth, 1979) and 80% (Briere and Smiljanich, 1993)…Male adolescent sex offenders abused by “females only” chose female victims almost exclusively.
Note that these are studies of perpetrators rather than victims. Fewer than one in ten victims become perpetrators.
My husband voluntarily went to a group for men who abused their partners (he has been emotionally abusive, never physically abusive). Not one man described being physically abused by his mother; all of them grew up in homes where their fathers physically abused their mothers. This was not a small group. Which is why I’m not trying to say that that this scenario never happens. What I am saying is that the scenario you describe here cannot be applied to every abusive man in existence. Take a look at the links that Tamen provides below. For all the supposed care… Read more »
Victims of female perpetrators report at a rate one twentieth that of victims of male perpetrators.
There are reasons for this.
Danny makes a great point with regards to the misdiagnosis of male struggles. There needs not be a victim in the progress towards greater equality and Wampole’s suggestion that women must maintain the status quo by deference to men in order to placate their anger at losing their undue privilege is a ridiculous notion. I appreciate Schwyzer’s pointing out that “the rates for most violent crimes (including homicide and rape) are declining” as it clearly discredits Wampole’s shades of grey illusory correlations between female submission and male violence.
x2 I couldn agree more.
If the result of sharing power means to these men “losing privilege” and then that means violence, we have a much bigger problem than deferring to men. It would also help if all the pain and suffering that men and boys go through wasn’t labeled “losing privilege” when it’s anything but. Male DV victim in pain because he was told he that hee needs to go abuser’s conseling? “Losing male privilege”. A dad in pain because the mother of his child whisked said child away to put them up for adoption? “Losing male privilege”. A guy in pain because he… Read more »
Pain is pain, Danny. Loss is loss. Feelings are real. It can be both. I know, as a white woman in America, that I need to not just lose white privilege but actively work to give it up if I am to be part of a world where oppression isn’t happening race over race. I am no better than someone based on my race, and that I have that “privilege” granted to me based on nothing other than skin color is wrong. And I believe it’s a real dynamic and one that should be changed. It doesn’t mean that I… Read more »
I largely agree with what you are saying actually but what I’m saying is that real compassion is going to be hard when the pain and suffering are being misdiagnosed. I want to see change made as well Julie so let me try to explain in a specific example. Let’s take a man that is abusive towards his wife. Now the popular explaination for that abuse is that he is trying to control women and assert male privilege do to being raised to think that his wife should be in a subordinate position to him. Now while that certainly does… Read more »
“Let’s take a man that is abusive towards his wife. Now the popular explaination for that abuse is that he is trying to control women and assert male privilege do to being raised to think that his wife should be in a subordinate position to him. Now while that certainly does happen what good will that do when dealing with a man that is abusive towards him wife not because he thinks that women should be subordinate to him but because he was abused by his mother as a child and instead of properly healing he now lashing out against… Read more »
Or maybe there are as many combinations of this as there are people. Precisely. Yet somehow we are supposed to believe that all those possibilities can be traced back to two orgins (men abuse women because they think women should be beneath them and women abuse men because they were abused by men in the past and are lashing out) and treated from there? That’s how you end up with male victims being treated like abusers and female abusers being treated like victims. Thus, should we have as part of our justice system deep and healing therapeutic dynamics and systems… Read more »
@ Danny, For a while I thought what you were saying is that in cases where men are and have been legitimately oppressed (in areas where females were advantaged) sometimes male anger at being oppressed is characterized as male anger at losing privilege that they never had. ‘Kind of like my thought. When men show anger, people assume that the anger is over losing power, but the power that was lost is gained by someone else. Those being women. People assume male anger is over power being lost rather than the way that women use the power that was gained.… Read more »
“Anger” is often a secondary emotion. This means, especially for men, that anger presents itself first, rather than another emotion like fear or sadness.
Sorry for the double comment. My primary wireless router stopped broadcasting and I switched to my backup. Didn’t realize that the packets weren’t lost.
What about everyone just treating people decently? Why do we need to use power anyway? Couldn’t collaboration and compromise accomplish most things? If people feel included in decisions, there are fewer bad feelings. If you have a project at work, ask someone to take it on. Most people will accept ownership if asked. Give people a chance. What happened to manners? Saying please, excuse me, and thank you goes a long away. Things like excuse me also show respect for people’s boundaries and we should respect a person’s boundaries. It might be the martial artist in me, but there were… Read more »
I agree with a lot of what Sarah is saying about compassion, but I think something that people are missing is that things come down to treating people decently. Why do you need to use power? Why not collaboration and compromise? Most people will take ownership of a project if you ask them. I’ve worked for people who I’ve done the minimum amount if work for and I’ve worked for people who’s back I totally had. The judicious use of power goes a long way towards making people feel valued. Many people have forgotten manners. Saying please and thank you… Read more »
John. Did the woman sparring partner get enough so that she improved?
I think they mostly did. It wasn’t like I was going to let myself get hit. The biggest question in my mind was that I promised to respect my classmates. Easing up on someone felt disrespectful and that was the quandary. If we were equal belts, to respect her was to give her my best. To give her my best would have resulted in injury. There were two women in the class and they usually sparred each other, but when one was absent, I would spar them. I’m 5′ 7″ and weighed between 140 and 150 at that time so… Read more »
And she deserved that broken arm. You go for the crotch, you go on the attack, prepare for a severe ass kicking. It’s inexcusable behaviour. It’s a valuable lesson for her to learn, that she can’t continue to think men are invincible and thus do whatever she wants to them with no repercussions. I can’t begin to tell you how many women I’ve seen growing up with entitled princess behaviour where they feel it’s completely acceptable to hit men.
She never returned to the dojang. The other woman didn’t stick around very long afterwards either and everyone felt kind of bad especially the guy who broke her arm. Eventually we chalked it up to accidents happen when participating in combat sports. To be honest I don’t know what I would have done if I had sparred her again.
I don’t blame you for that fear. If someone goes for my nuts, they get full grizzly bear angry Archy, all 6’6 300lb’s even if they are smaller because it is a VERY severe threat to your health, far far far far more than a punch in the arm. The testicles are extremely vulnerable, people have died I believe from being kicked there and people have had severe injury from it. It’s an extreme attack to do and should only be used in life-threatening situations. The thread needs to be neutralized somehow, because a good-solid kick to the nuts can… Read more »
To be perfectly frank, I think, largely, we’re a bothered by the fact that women seem to still want to be considered the better home-makers, the better parents, the more “emotionally intelligent” sex, the more compassionate sex, the more sacred and deserving of sacrifice, the kinder and gentler sex, the neater and more organized sex. But women should also be considered equally strong, logical, reasonable, smart, capable, dedicated, and brave. Everything that outdated gender roles said men were “better” at should be areas of equality. But everything those same outdated gender roles said women were “better” at should somehow remain,… Read more »
had a conversation with a feminist once. I linked her to an article that showed that businesses that have teams of people including women are more successful than businesses whose teams lack women. My comment was “Fuck yeah diversity.” Her comment was “Fuck yeah powerful women.” That’s about the flavor I get of feminists perspective on these things: it’s not about diversity, it’s not about equality, its about power. It’s about women getting power, men losing power, and if men have any problem, they’re *clearly* just upset that they’re losing privilege. And I don’t think that is the case. To… Read more »
It reminds me of a bit David Cross did in one of his standups. First he said, “I truly believe that women are smarter than men.” Applause and cheers from all the women. Then he said, “I also believe that dogs are smarter than women.” That didn’t go over quite so well.
I’ve noticed this too Drew. Women are equal to men in all things…except the capacity to do bad things. Look at how often you see commentary that there need to be more well thought out female heroes vs how often you see commentary that there need to be more well thought out female villains. That’s why a few years ago I noticed that some of the very same people that rallied against shirts with phrases like, “I’m a girl, I’m too pretty to do math.” turned right around and defended shirts with phrases like, “Boys are stupid, throw rocks at… Read more »
I’d only respond again to say that systems of oppression form and foster double standards and that when the power is to shift all of it has to shift, power and responsibilities. I”m a feminist and I don’t much like shirts that say boys are stupid. I like boys. Boys aren’t stupid. I’m not much a fan of those double standards and calling them out is a part of the over arching empathy that I practice whether it’s gender or race or orientation. I’m aware I’m still in those systems and as such, influenced by them. All any of us… Read more »
Julie, now don’t take this the wrong way, but do you perhaps think that having 2 SONS perhaps ‘enhanced’ your perspective? I only say this because I KNOW having 3 daughters definitely improved my perspective! Now I realize I grew up before you (I graduated high school in ’72). and all my ‘training’ said Women are to be cherished and protected. Having 3 daughters however, showed me the SIMILARITIES (after all, were both human!). I learned that hopes and dreams are the same for both! Wow, what a relevation that was! Now, I have a son who’s 8, 10 and… Read more »
A lot of my nephews friends (all boys) are planning to join the military after they graduate high school in 6 or so months. They currently work or have worked at fast food places. My nephew has been looking for several months and can’t find even that. That seems to be the best young men can do today. My niece on the other hand has turned down 4 job offers and finally settled on a part time job at Victoria’s Secret. She graduated high school last year. She’s currently in college.
I’m not sure why I’d take it the “wrong way” or what that wrong way would be, but of course all our experiences in life change our perspective. And the “type” of boy would alter my perspective as well, am I raising boys that want sports or art, or both; am I raising them in a rural or urban setting, etc. I suspect that if I’d had girls it would have shifted my thinking in a variety of ways as well, give that I wasn’t a very girly girl and didn’t play with dolls etc…all our life experiences add to… Read more »
wait a minute….you’re assessing an entire movement based on the opinion of ONE feminist? have you done any further research about the feminist movement or discussed these issues with any other feminists? doesn’t sound like it. those of us who’ve been in the feminist movement for decades DO understand that it’s true diversity that progresses the human family, not one gender of the other. but that doesn’t seem to adhere to your (previously created assumptions?) “assessment.” deference, in this context, is simply ENABLING an abusive situation or person….nothing more. deference is completely different from compassion and a willingness to include… Read more »
I think it is difficult to empathize with people one does not really care about. The idea that men are in panic over losing their “privilege” is laughable, but it also reveals a disdain for men in general. That attitude does not look at the situations men face and treat them with any seriousness. Instead, the attitude, shared by both Wampole and Schwyzer, is that men are useless, expendable, and dangerous. The only difference between the two is what they think we ought to do about that (and neither one has an intelligent, let alone humane, solution). How can you… Read more »
I’m not sure I even understand some of the language used in the NYT piece. “Accommodating others’ pain”? That sounds very patronizing. I totally don’t understand what she means by deference. “To delight in their losses”? “Those of us who belong to a demographic that is doing increasingly better”? What world does the writer live in? She doesn’t sound like she’s writing about human beings. I am not a demographic and neither are young men; we are individuals with our individual problems, pain, and successes. To look at another being with the compassion that Sarah writes about does not permit… Read more »
“Do those who grow up with fathers (or at least good male role models) have a better identity as a male on average than those who don’t?” Mothers provide less of what researchers call “parental investment” to boys when they do not live with the father of the children as oposed to when they live with the father but show equal parental investment in their daughters regardless of the situation. The reality is that boys growing up without their father in the same household do not only get deprived of vital contact with their father but also get deprived of… Read more »
“if the mothers have proven that they can raise the children alone”
The research on children from single parent homes show very clearly that they mostly can not. Statistically the outomes are horrible, especially for boys.
I’m not sure that the statistics you are referring control for variables like socio-economic status & education. For instance, a low-income, uneducated single-family household is more likely to raise offspring that are less successful than a household in which two parents bring in an income. However, it’s also likely that a well-off and well-educated single mom will raise children who are more successful than children from a two-parent, low-income household that doesn’t value (or can’t afford) a solid level of education.
Your view would then be that fathers are irrelevant and nature made them solely to provide nothing more. Great! Is it any wonder that I as a man become hostile to a social movement, feminism, that claims I am utterly irrelevant? If you keep on holding views like that you are certain to loose all male support for feminism. Check these out:
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/2011/07/18/new-research-shows-value-of-fathers-to-children-mothers/
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/2012/07/04/50-year-international-study-fathers-contribute-as-much-or-more-than-mothers-to-childs-development/
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/2012/01/13/major-study-boys-education-suffers-most-from-single-mother-upbringing/
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/2012/11/02/whats-most-important-to-childrens-education-parents/
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/2012/07/22/study-early-father-involvement-vital-to-childrens-welfare/
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/2012/03/21/uks-most-dysfunctional-families-lack-fathers/
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/2011/11/21/children-of-hands-on-parents-do-better-in-school-media-miss-the-message-within-the-message/
I like the word compassion better than empathy , maybe because I’ve studied Buddhism (though I’m not a practicing Buddhist ). In Buddhist terms, compassion comes when we become aware that we are connected to other people and other living things; that “us” and “them ” is an illusion. The young men who are struggling are part of my society, their struggles are my struggles, their pain is my pain. Empathy means the same thing more or less but it is more intellectualized. “You feel pain, therefore I feel your pain.” Compassion (at least in the Buddhist sense) has more… Read more »
It is food for thought, but how do you see that related to the idea of deference vs real empathy?
Disassocation, identity, etc. Along with empathy maybe parents should ensure their children get a good range of role models where possible. Probably more related to the OP, apologies if it’s offtopic. I felt partial loss of male identity when my father died which made me realize how important a good, strong, caring role model is. He was very empathic which I learned from him, that helped me avoid being more violent. I was definitely on a path to becoming extremely violent but empathy n people giving a damn stopped that. I originally saw the Hugo article on Jezebel, there is… Read more »
Thanks Archy. Empathy and compassion are always pieces of practice. No one (except for maybe Jesus or Buddha!) gets them right all the time, every time. I don’t know what it’s like to be a boy losing his father, but I do know that when I lost my own father at 9, my life changed irrevocably. I think children need a wide variety of role models, multiple layers of support, community and consistency. I’m sorry you had to go through that pain. I wouldn’t write for GMP, or have spent so many months engaging with commenters as a community member… Read more »
“I have found that that includes pushing back, arguing, expecting honesty and being willing to give it.” I think they call that a backbone. 😛 Not many want a push over and I respect those who will state their opinions even if what they say can be annoying or I disagree with completely. Losing a father for girls and boys would be terrible, I’d say probably a bit harder on the boys since I believe we base a lot of our identity with those who are similar to us and I know I had far more in common with my… Read more »
I think empathy is table stakes in this conversation. As in d’uh, if we want to understand the shift in male behavior, we need to be calm in the face of the symptoms caused by change. Without some context, i don’t think this article, or nyt article have a load to add to the conversation, about how men are evolving or struggling to adjust as different forces shift in society. Phrases like ‘A culture of shame’ or ‘a culture of violence’ are ways of framing the world through a combative female lens. These are made up, over hyped phrases as… Read more »
I see one in three kids grows up without a father apparently, I’d say not having a male role model around would be detrimental for many people. Do those who grow up with fathers (or at least good male role models) have a better identity as a male on average than those who don’t? It must be hard for many to get an idea of what a man is if they don’t have someone close to them to teach them, I myself am fortunate I had a father until 18 and the loss of him took a great impact on… Read more »
It could also be that fatherless homes are of a lower SES, or that these single mothers simply aren’t good people, making them generally inadequate parents. While a positive male role model must certainly provide benefits, any number of extraneous variables in fatherless home situations could be leading to the increased likelihood of boys acting out.