Book author Kay S. Hymowitz examines the trend in young men who fail to launch.
This appeared as a guest post on Earl Hipp’s blog, Man-Making.
In her book Manning Up: How the Rise of Women has turned Men into Boys, author Kay Hymowitz looks at the social trends which have created what she terms the “child-man.” She defines a child-man as a male in his twenties or early thirties who lacks the motivation for taking on the various responsibilities often used as metrics for manhood—such as holding down a “real job,” marriage, and starting a family. Instead, the stereotypical child-man is a responsibility-shirking, slovenly-dressed, video-gaming, South Park-watching slouch.
According to Hymowitz, child-men find themselves lost in a world where women make more money, are more educated, and are less likely to want to settle down (with them) and build a family.Publisher’s Weekly (which panned the book) quotes the author, describing pre-adult men as, … living in a world where social demands no longer equate manhood with maturity, (thus) frat dudes, nerds, geeks, and emo-boys can remain in suspended post-adolescence, while women, whose biological clocks are ticking, are forced to choose between single parenthood and casting their lot with a child-man. Hymowitz explores the many cultural forces she believes have brought about this unanticipated and disconcerting effect in males.
Manning Up is less a prescription on how to reverse the child-man trend (though some ideas are presented), than a concise (fewer than 200 pages) historical and cultural analysis of the forces in society that have raised and tolerated the child-man. In a Forbes online interview with Hymowitz, the author describes some of the confusion for men resulting from the feminist movement. She said, . . . the culture at large is uncertain about what it wants from its men. We give a lot of mixed messages. We say, on the one hand, that fathers are so important. At the same time, we say that fathers are optional. Many women seem to want men that are confident and have a strong sense of themselves. At the same time, they are put off by too much masculine, authoritativeness. I think a lot of men react to these mixed signals by retreating into themselves, becoming passive and reluctant, and often waiting for women to make the first move.
Though she points to a number of factors driving men toward child-manhood, Hymowitz zeros in on the rise of the knowledge economy as a chief determinant. In the knowledge economy, it’s not male-favoring brute strength that is most highly prized, but emotional intelligence. She feels this emotional intelligence not only levels the job-market playing field for both genders, but may actually give women the upper hand.
Hymowitz suggests another important change she has witnessed over the last few decades is the infatuation with girl-power. The author doesn’t say empowering girls and young women is a bad thing – but this trend has changed the expectations and aspirations of women and, in response, altered the landscape for males in regards to education, marriage (marrying much later in life), and career opportunities. Hymowitz believes, in many ways, the pro-girl-power movement has come at the expense of boys and younger men. In just one example of many, she cites the major investments made in public schools to bring girls’ scores in math and science to par (or even better) with boys’ scores. She points out similar investments have not been made to raise boys’ reading scores to levels comparable to girls’.
The author also identifies another shift in the last few decades where popular culture increasingly portrays women as in-charge, competent, and sophisticated, while so many movies and TV shows portray men as the opposite: incompetent, unreliable, immature, and often foolish –and only good for a laugh (think Adam Sandler, in Big Daddy, or Seth Rogen in Knocked Up).
What hit me as the most tragic result of changing social conditions Hymowitz describes is the absence of a positive and achievable life script in the lives of too many young men. In the past, Hymowitz writes,
The life script for most men was pretty simple: you’re born; you grow up; you learn to do the hunting, fishing, building, farming, and the like expected of you; you get married, you have children, you get old (if you’re lucky); and you die. There were exceptions [… but] despite the variations, we can make several generalizations. First, men were required to provide, or to help provide, for their wives and children, and in many cases for other family members. Second, in the face of danger, they had to protect these others as well. This is why so many pre-modern cultures had initiation rituals testing boys’ courage, perseverance, and competence.
In the past, societies needed proven men—especially at times of war and high risk. In the modern knowledge economy, men are simply not needed in the same way. It’s a mistake, though, to assume that men are, therefore, dispensable. It frustrates me that we have allowed society to diminish the role of the strong and responsible man—or have so dumbed down manhood so as to equate it with sex, beer, computer games, sports and foolish pursuits.
It can and should be argued, as this blog often does, that the risks we are and will be facing in our world will require tested, proven, and responsible men. This in no way precludes a role of strong women and women of character. But a clear template for men does seem to be missing.
Manning Up shows us how the challenge of coming of age for a young male in a culture without a desirable prescription for a positive and mature manhood, combined with a lack of guidance from older men, has resulted in something like the child-man phenomenon the author describes. In spite of what you might consider to be its flaws, the book does provide the reader with a greater awareness of social trends affecting not only our young men, but also women and society as a whole. I highly recommend the book to anyone interested in what Earl, in this blog, terms man-making.
—Photo credit: Cookies and milk image from Shutterstock
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Fatherless homes is another reason I see these guys lacking the fire to do something with their lives. And if ya want to loop relationships as a factor …. yeah, what do men have to use as examples when many live in households without active dads in their lives much less the male role models being guys that ocassionally bed down with mom.
It’s clear, society promoted fatherless homes.
After reading through the responses, it appears that a lot of emphasis has been put on marriage and relationships. Relationships are not the only thing that define men. There also appears to be a void in the discussion where it related to general societal attitudes that have clearly affected men in todays society. The fact remains, we are a society that’s made and continues to make an effort to promote women in every area and totally neglects men.
VAWA and the health care proposal clearly proves my point.
“divorce is an unfortunate development that occurs so often because of the child-like (in the negative sense of the phrase, obviously) decisions made by not-quite-men in regards to relationships” I just snarfed my milk, bro. So we should blame the last generation of men for getting destroyed in divorce court because they weren’t mature enough? I’m dyin laughing over here dude. ” Too often, the child-man enters into a relationship because he’s horny and she’s pretty” Yea cuz us young men (refer to shaming language manual: see man-child) don’t care much about traditional relationships where men get obliterated in the… Read more »
One other factor that could be a play here is that we are seeing the coming of age of the Ritalin generation. I personally know of classrooms of grade school kids (now in their mid 20s) where almost 75% of the boys were on that mind controlling drug during their formative years. This is also the generation where all the focus was on fixing the disparity in the classroom concerning “male focused educational techniques”. I believe it is a combination of factors. Drug suppressed formative years, a subtle message throughout school that supports girls in favor of boys, and half… Read more »
So much of the above discussion misses the point of ‘manning-up.’ For example, divorce is an unfortunate development that occurs so often because of the child-like (in the negative sense of the phrase, obviously) decisions made by not-quite-men in regards to relationships (and yes, immature woman are not blameless either, but a responsible man will own-up to what is happening in his life.) The problem is conspicuously noticeable before the “divorce” stage. Too often, the child-man enters into a relationship because he’s horny and she’s pretty – or some equally superficial reason. This is a disconcerting trend. But alas, we… Read more »
Burre, you touched on part of the malaise that afflicts marriage. For some reason, inexplicable to this happily unmarried man, is why men seem to be so easily verbally beaten into submission by their wives. Once the ring goes on her finger it is as if the man has agreed to move in with a version of his mother and in all decisions he must defer to her. If he doesn’t, the misandrist divorce court will very swiftly punish him for his rank disobedience. So, either behave like an adult in a relationship and be financially ruined, or behave like… Read more »
Burre writes: “decisions made by not-quite-men in regards to relationships (and yes, immature woman are not blameless either, but a responsible man will own-up to what is happening in his life.)” This has me wondering. Are you saying that you hold men to a higher standard to state his unhappiness in a relationship or society does? Either way, this seems like a sexist attitude. You place more responsibility on men for stating dissatisfaction (or making wise choices, or whatever) but give women a free pass? Burre writes: “Too often, the child-man enters into a relationship because he’s horny and she’s… Read more »
Augh, this lady.
“Many women seem to want men that are confident and have a strong sense of themselves. At the same time, they are put off by too much masculine, authoritativeness.”
A person with a strong sense of himself will also know where his self ends and other selves begin — that’s like the OPPOSITE of authoritativeness right there.
For me it all boils down to a big philosophical question:
Which is better, to follow a bad script or no script at all?
Sounds like Hymowitz is suggesting that it’s better to follow the older, flawed script than to try to struggle writing a new one yourself. I tend to think it’s the opposite, and I’m guessing many men agree.
I think the deeper question is “who gets to define good and evil?”
Do women like Hmowitz get to define what a “good man” is based on how men provide value to her or other women?
Or do men get to define what a “good man” is based on how we perceive ourselves and not based on our value to others?
There’s a discussion that needs to happen here, and one I’ve mentioned before. “Who gets to define masculinity?”
It’s my contention that men and only men are the arbiters of what makes a good man. Women do not get a say in our process of redefining ourselves.
“It’s my contention that men and only men are the arbiters of what makes a good man. Women do not get a say in our process of redefining ourselves.” I agree completely. I saw you bring that question up before and I remember a woman immediately claiming that she got a say. I was stunned because women have ALWAYS demanded that men don’t get a say in what makes a “good woman.” Also, “good” is relative and describes benefit, so any woman’s definition of a “good man” is going to be predicated on how that man benefits her. A man’s… Read more »
And men have no say in what makes a woman a good woman. And so forth and so on in any race, orientation or culture. OR…we all have a say in what makes us good human beings.
I respectfully disagree. I don’t think that anyone gets to define what makes another person “a good human being” because that judgment is really just about their benefit to you. I would never presume to tell you how to be a “good woman,” because I don’t demand that you *be* good. I only expect that you be decent, in that you treat other people with decency. This may sound like semantics but here’s the difference: In order for someone to be “good” they must provide some type of benefit to either me or someone else. That benefit is what makes… Read more »
Sorry, Julie, but I think you’re wrong on this one. What happens when men and women’s definition of what a “good man” is clash? Who trumps who? I don’t think I’ve ever seen women, especially feminist women, ever welcome a man’s input on what a “good woman” is. In fact it strikes me that there would be a backlash to even using the phrase “good woman.” Look at SlutWalks. (and I don’t really want to get into debates about the efficacy of slutwalks or their ethics or whatever, because it’s tangenital to my point, and I’m not opposed to Slut… Read more »
My point being, that all of us set judgments on each other all the time. And reject those judgements. So it can’t be both ways. If men get to talk about men and women get to talk about women, we’ll have nothing but echo chambers and I suppose if we all lived separately that might be something. But we live together, work together and affect each other. My actions as a human, a woman, affect men. Vice versa. Right now, it feels as if perhaps everyone ought to take a xanax and try to work on themselves rather than telling… Read more »
Agreed Copyleft. “Good”, be it man or women, is frequently being used instead of the term “Desirable”. We know men’s desire for women is not the same as women’s desire for men. Each sex values different things about the other. However, when it comes to Good Men, women have no meaningful input. At the moment there is no Good Human Project, men and women are not in this together. At least not yet. Men have to decide for themselves what they value, what they respect and what they wish to set aside. Whether this alters their desirability to women is… Read more »
Am I alone in thinking this article was seeded to start a huge comment debate? I feel like statistics are being taken on our responses.
Publishers Weekly is a very gentle, generous publication that generally tries to find the good in any book. If PW pans your book, you know there is something seriously flawed in it. It would take a book to explain what’s wrong with her book. I’ll stick to two main problems: 1. Her language suggests that the problem with men is that we are not behaving in the way that she wants us to behave. Our choices are making it harder for women to find their preferred mates, so we are making women increasingly disappointed. Somehow activities that are unrelated get… Read more »
I think the article was right on. I look around at young men and I just don’t see the fire that I once saw. Open your local newspaper under “events” and you will more likely see seminars, conventions or groups promoting women in business, women’s financial resources or a variety of programs developed for the betterment of women. Go to a news stand and look at the countless numbers of magazines devoted to women. I just did a quick google search for “grants for male business owners” and low and behold what came up were grants for women and minorities.… Read more »
Even worse, men with heart disease are more likely to get blamed for it than women with heart disease. If only you men didn’t eat so poorly and take on so much stress, you wouldn’t get so many heart attacks. With women, however, heart disease is a killer, an epidemic sweeping the nation, not really anyone’s fault, except for the medical profession which needs to do more to prevent it. (I was just thinking that on TV a man having a heart attack is sometimes used as a source of amusement. [Fred Sanford, for example.] But, you don’t see a… Read more »
Tom B writes: “I think the article was right on. I look around at young men and I just don’t see the fire that I once saw.” Quite right. Of course a lot of this is due to society’s and feminists desires to angelicize the female role and demonize the male role. When a man completes college, works overtime, bucks for promotions, woos clients after work hours, sires children and provides his wife with every want she could possibly fathom he is called a misogynistic patriarch. Society has dummed down the role of male self-sacrifice so that it is actually… Read more »
Interesting read, I don’t think I agree 100% on all of it but there is quite a lot that seems to fit. To me marriage sounds like just a title, you can date someone and still love them, care for them, be a defacto relationship (for tax etc in Australia at least). I do notice some women seem to go overboard with the wedding, it’s really making me wonder if some just want a fancy day to go nuts over, most guys I see seem to be indifferent to it all. I am also noticing more n more men not… Read more »
Yea GWW gets it, man. I’ve never seen a woman so honestly and passionately defend men to the ground. It brought tears to my eyes.
Yeah, it’s a beautiful thing.
I think many of the comments here are not quite getting the whole point. If boys are choosing this path and are happy with it and where it takes them, I think most would agree that is fine. The issue is that boys (and young men) are defaulting into this path because they don’t have the knowledge of what would make them happy and the tools to achieve that. This leads many boys and young men to feel lost, confused, directionless, and depressed. “Failure to launch” isn’t about choice. There was just an article the other day in the news… Read more »
“The issue is that boys (and young men) are defaulting into this path because they don’t have the knowledge of what would make them happy and the tools to achieve that.”
Ah the old “they don’t know what’s best for them. Why don’t you ask young men before you “decide” what their motives are.
@Jimmy, it doesn’t matter how often you blame feminism for the state of modern men, it’s still going to get worst. Where’s the MRM when it comes to housing? Where’s the MRM when it comes to job training?
How’s bashing feminist “Manginas” and White Kights going to save under educated men from this economy? What is this gender war accomplishing?
Budmin: “How’s bashing feminist “Manginas” and White Kights going to save under educated men from this economy? What is this gender war accomplishing?” If they’re going to insist that men should be free from their gender roles while turning around and calling the men in these articles “Man Child”, lamenting the lack of real men in society, pretending to care about boy issues then saying that it’s either their own fault for being left behind in the public education system or it’s anon-issue compared to girls then they have no one to blame but themselves. Continue to insist that feminism… Read more »
What is this gender war accomplishing? Unfortunately there is a short term lesson to be had from the way the gender wars have been going on the last few decades (no there should not be a gender war but as of right now there most certainly is on going on). That lesson being that if you gain enough influence and control for your side you can help yourself and your side out and mow down the other. @Jimmy I think that when Reese said, “The issue is that boys (and young men) are defaulting into this path because they don’t… Read more »
Danny, I’m one of those young men. I’ve got a degree and a nice job so that gives me different options but I would still rather pursue my own interests than start a family. It’s not just the shitty way we were raised and taught. And it’s certainly not some sulking over not being given the keys to the kingdom, although the fact that we were given none of the opportunities that you all gave the girls is really fucked up. No it’s much more complicated than that. But two causes that you and everyone else seem content to ignore… Read more »
“We saw a generation of women divorce our fathers.”
60% divorce rate means that 40% of marriages are “successful.” Of that 60%, not all were initiated by the women. So no, you didn’t see an entire generation of women divorce men.
70% were initiated by women for the most common reason of dissatisfaction and that doesn’t count cases where the wife was cheating on her husband.
60% is a phenomenally high number the majority of which I’m sure were either precipitated by the wife or by her actions. No gambler in the world would take those odds considering the potential payout vs potential risk.
We saw fully half of the older generation of women end their marriages, that can’t be argued away lol ask the other guys
I don’t know whether your 70% stat is accurate, but we’ll pretend it is. 70% (of divorces) of 60% (of marriages) is actually around 40% (of marriages)…so even if all of your stats are correct, you actually saw the same number of women get divorces because of dissatisfaction (40%) as you did marriages that were ‘successful’ (40%). Blaming a high divorce rate for not wanting to get married, and then worse blaming women for that high divorce rate is just an opportunistic way of interpreting the stats. Not that I’m saying you have to get married. I’m just saying it’s… Read more »
Not at all. When 70% of divorces are decided by the wife (again mostly for “dissatisfaction”) and then you count in the number of wives who cheated on their husbands causing the husbands to get a divorce, you can pretty confidently place almost sole blame on women for the precipitously high divorce rates. That’s not interpreting the stats in any opportunistic way or twisting them to suit a purpose, that’s just objectively looking at them and saying “60% of marriages end in divorce, that’s a lot. In the vast majority of these divorces, who caused it?” And to put things… Read more »
And of the 70%, how many were because the husband cheated on the wife? (That’s rhetorical). My point is that you can’t say that women are to blame for initiating divorce, and then also say women are to blame even when men are the ones who initiated it. What happened to male agency? (Also rhetorical). Blaming one group of people (whether it’s men, women, African-Americans, whatever) is easy and lazy and often very wrong. I’m not even saying that in divorce, men and women are treated equally. And I’m not even saying that can’t be a factor in an individual… Read more »
Did we not determine that in roughly 42% (70% of 60%) of marriages the woman files for divorce?
And can we also not agree that due to discriminatory divorce court practices divorce is financially disastrous for men but usually quite lucrative for women?
If a young man gets married today he has a roughly 42% chance that his wife will divorce him and financially ruin him.
That’s neither a huge generalization or a narrow interpretation. It’s a cold hard fact.
Alrighty, I’m going to try once more and then I’ll call it quits…cuz we’re starting to go in circles. If a man gets married he’s also got a roughly 40% chance that things go swimmingly. So, what I’m saying, is it’s a glass half full/half empty sort of situation. It’s all about perspective and how you, individually and personally, view the statistics. Some marriages work, some fail because the wife screws up, some because the husband screws up, some because both individuals decide they shouldn’t be married any more. Sometimes (rarely) it’s amicable. Of the divorced couples I know, only… Read more »
And in regards to male agency, you’re totally right. Many young men are now exercising their agency and refusing to marry despite the shaming cries of those around us.
And if we are free to do what we want then why is everyone (times, wall street journal, washington post, forbes) veritably *screaming* at us to get off the couch and go get married?
So this seems like hyperbole to me. There are magazine articles on this topic yes. But they aren’t actually screaming at you. I hate the title here Rise/Demise. Just the same old binary bullshit about win/lose. Yes, people are changing roles. Yes it’s a societal and cultural identity shift/crisis. Yes some people rally forward and find personal power in their own selves and strengths, accept and welcome new roles and explore new relationship and role dynamics. And some people find themselves flailing, internalizing bullshit media messages about zero sum/win lose dynamics. Don’t read the articles. Write letters to the editors.… Read more »
Yeah, this is sort of what I’m trying to say…only Julie says it better. 🙂
You are leaving out the possibility that even if more woman than men initiate the divorce, the men also want the divorce, it’s just the woman who finally files the papers. It’s not like 70% of men are begging their wives not to leave. A lot of them are saying “good riddance, b@tch” as she walks out the door. I have a lot of friends who got divorced, and most of the time, the marriages were in shambles by the time the woman sees a lawyer. I’ve also known a lot of women who work to save the marriage for… Read more »
“but the wife eventually gets tired of being in a loveless marriage that’s full of conflict all the time” As should men. The longer people stay in a situation that is loveless, passionless, at times unkind (without making real attempts to change it) the more animosity and resentment builds. Any long term partnership can be filled with rewards. It can also be extraordinarily hard work. If the work is more than the reward, it’s time to examine. If you aren’t willing or able to commit to the process, don’t do it. For the record, I’ve known of several couples in… Read more »
“We could blame the chick for not being a good enough wife, or the husband for being a philanderer, or both for making a bad match to begin with.” It’s the system, man. Stop feeding into the system. 🙂 I was just being a bit ridiculous there…but seriously I do think that’s the important thing. From all the divorced couples I know, there is very rarely any single cause of the divorce. Oh sometimes it’s more because the man (or woman) did something that the other can’t forgive. But more often than not it’s due to a whole lot of… Read more »
And Julie, the juice can be worth the squeeze, the work can be worth the reward, but *not* in a system where failure is equivalent to financial ruin.
Another factor may be that in the 30% of the divorces in which men filed it’s entirely possible that the wife made the husbands life so unbearable (safe in the knowledge that divorce laws favor her) that he had to call it quits. From what I have seen women are VERY aware of the divorce laws that hugely disadvantage men. As per this article detailing a 4-state study of 46000 divorces, women routinely initiate divorce for simple dissatisifaction/boredom. ht tp://www.livestrong.com/article/146100-why-do-women-initiate-divorce/ Women are 66% more likely to initiate divorce over men. In the handful of states that have shared parenting divorce… Read more »
“It’s the system, man. Stop feeding into the system” That’s exactly my point. The system is set up to benefit women who get a divorce and to punish men. Divorce court is extremely biased. So it’s no surprise that more women want a divorce than men, but it’s also almost a non-issue. Because the point is, if divorce had no financial implications then marriage would seem a whole lot more attractive to a lot of young men. Hell who doesn’t want to spend their life with someone they care a whole lot about? But as the system is set up… Read more »
One thing you’re neglecting Heather is that regardless of who initiates, Jimmy and others are correct that a whole generation of young men have seen their fathers or friends fathers get eviscerated in family court. Fathers get primary custody 6% of the time to mothers 80% of the time. Are mothers really the better parents 14 times as often? Of course not. Who initiated isn’t as important as the clearly one-sided bias against fathers in family court and the stark lesson taught to young men in the 80’s and 90’s. The damage from divorce is *clearly* much higher for men… Read more »
I agree that family court is generally extremely unfair to men when it comes to child custody, and I totally agree that’s a factor that men probably consider when thinking about whether they want to get married and have kids. In terms of finances, well see now there I’d need to see a lot more data and analysis of that data, because frankly I know plenty of women and men who both end up financially screwed over because of getting a divorce. Contrary to what a lot of people say, divorce is not a picnic for women either. My point… Read more »
My boyfriend’s father left his mother for a younger woman when my boyfriend was 14 and his sister was 8. His mom had been a stay at home mom for years and had no job skills. She hadn’t even gone to college. Dad emptied the joint bank accounts before he left, disappeared for several years, filed false tax returns, hid assets and perjured himself in court in order to avoid giving a fair share of the family assets to my boyfriend’s mom. He never paid a dime of child support, Their divorce battle lasted for nearly a decade and when… Read more »
Sarah: Please point to where I said that women were responsible for divorce. It saddens me to hear about your boyfriends situation. However, the exception doesn’t disprove the rule. As sad as it is, your story doesn’t disprove the rampant evidence of family courts extreme mother bias. I’m not necessarily blaming women for getting divorced. Quite frankly I’m not surprised. It’s human nature to take advantage of incentives even when the person knows they are at another persons expense. I am talking here about the *system*. And the system is *clearly* rigged in favor of females. Mothers win custody 80%… Read more »
HeatherN, would you have an elective surgical procedure donr with a 40% success rate?
I found this interesting “Two-thirds of all divorces are initiated by women. One recent study found that many of the reasons for this have to do with the nature of our divorce laws. For example, in most states women have a good chance of receiving custody of their children. Because women more strongly want to keep their children with them, in states where there is a presumption of shared custody with the husband the percentage of women who initiate divorces is much lower.”
Where was he feminist-bashing in this comment? Or are you referring to other comments made my him. But anyway, is what’s frustrating is the MRM has almost no economic or political power yet. Just the name is politically-incorrect. What makes ME pull Feminism into the discussion is often the fact that Feminism claims to be about equality, but only helps women when they are screwed over. Then it bashes anything that ISN”T Feminism. For instance, when women were doing bad in school, they established grants and scholarships to help women out and encourage them to go to school. Now College… Read more »
@Web Isn’t that like saying that to defeat “feminism” …(what ever that means)…
we’ll have to imitate it’s successes?
Namely…
*Ending gender policing,
*Achieving domestic & Economic confidence,
*Addressing one’s own Emotional pit falls before the overwhelm you,
*Embrace the Education economy,
*And not calling Men Fags for living communally with other Men.
I’ll try to stay optimistic but I have big doubts.
Reese has a point. Society (including hardline feminism) has spent a lot of time and effort to tell young men that they are not only worthless, but actually a negative factor. Too many men have accepted that label without a struggle. Is it their fault for reacting with withdrawal and indifference? No; after all, society said loud and clear “We don’t want you, we don’t like you, just go away.” But it is still a problem that men have to deal with. Saying “OK, screw you” and pursuing a solo existence is certainly ONE valid response… but it shouldn’t be… Read more »
“Is it their fault for reacting with withdrawal and indifference? No; after all, society said loud and clear “We don’t want you, we don’t like you, just go away.” But it is still a problem that men have to deal with. Saying “OK, screw you” and pursuing a solo existence is certainly ONE valid response… but it shouldn’t be the only option available to us.” No, it shouldn’t be the only option, but damn if it isn’t a great option! Watching women such as Ms. Hymowitz throw a tantrum as more of us walk away from their unfair game (marriage)… Read more »
I’ll see your Halo and raise you a World of Warcraft.
Come get me when they make divorce fair.
It also looks like everybody from feminists to social conservatives are collectively crapping their pants at this trend of men seeking their own fulfillment rather than sticking to the one only legitimate path for approval for men in self-sacrificing for others. Women fought for (and largely got) the right to do whatever makes them fulfilled, but society just doesn’t want men getting off the hamster wheel. Too much is at stake for men to just start opting out. Society is built upon male self-sacrifice. However, the powers-that-be are going to refuse to sweeten the pot, so expect a lot more… Read more »
John, John, John…we’ve had conversations about this before…but I’ll say it again…the vast majority of the feminists I know are actually for men redefining their gender and moving away from traditional gender roles. This book is very much in the realm of what social conservatives want. There are feminist conservatives, and there are feminist sites and groups out there that are all about keeping men in traditional roles…but of the various feminists I know from all over the world, I can honestly say I don’t know a single one who would agree with what this book is saying.
Yep
Heather’s right. It’s not feminism that expects men to become responsible and hard working in order to be in position to provide for a family. Feminism is in theory anti-gender roles. Men who buy into feminist theory cecome more likey to be content to sit around the house and have someone else support them, preparing to eventually becoem a home-maker or stay at home dad.
The extremists Feminists however are the ones who have government funding and have an impact upon the well being of men; and the mainstream feminists sit back and blame men for it. How do you explain an Australian government policy being formulated that assigns ownership of children to the mother and not to the father? How do you explain divorce courts favouring women getting custody 70% of the time (Australian Family Court), how do you explain a Minister for Women, University Womens Officers, quotas for women in tertiary study and workplaces and none of these things for men? Mainstream Feminists… Read more »
Of course some people, perhaps feminists, want men to redefine themselves as unmotivated slugs. Anything goes and that’s great! NOT. Men are retreating in society for a reason. I would be curious to see how many of these men who are discribed could be diagnosed with depression. Naaa …. people would rather look at this as redefining them rather then seeing it as a problem or better yet a symptom.
I hate the whole “withdrawal” rhetoric that’s sometimes used against men, either individually or collectively. (This is not a reaction against your message, I’m just reminded of this when reading your message.) Saying someone is withdrawn can actually be a very self-centered way of seeing the situation. I have expectations for him to act a certain way, and he does not conform to my expectations, so there must be something wrong with him. Clearly, he’s withdrawn, because he is not doing what I want him to do. It can’t be that I’m wrong to expect these things of him. When,… Read more »
Bingo. But to be honest I don’t think any amount of shaming or “withdrawal” language is going to do the trick. I don’t know if you’ve ever read Crime and Punishment but there is this scene where this man is whipping a horse. It is a very old and weak horse and he just keeps telling more and more people to crowd onto the cart. The cart is impossibly heavy and he starts brutally whipping the horse and beating it with a crowbar. And it pulls and pulls as hard as it can but fails to move the cart more… Read more »
The issue is that boys (and young men) are defaulting into this path because they don’t have the knowledge of what would make them happy and the tools to achieve that. ________________________________________________________________ You miss part of a point. They (young males) really are messed and do not know what will make them happy… But (good thing) they seems to get very well – what will make them unhappy – marriage. Now, official indoctrination push them accept loose/loose paradigm- you have 2 options : 1. To get married (get kids , house , divorce , loose kids , house , be… Read more »
When a woman doesn’t study law, get a nice six figure salary right out of college and get married, is it ever called failure to launch? Nope.
When a woman doesn’t get married and have kids it is. Feminism has done a lot for women in terms of being able to pursue lives outside traditional gender roles…but there are still huge chunks of society that don’t see a woman as an adult until she’s married with kids. Or at the very least, settled down with kids.
Which, I should point out, I’m not saying that it’s somehow worse for women or something with this. I’m just saying it’s not as if women are free to do whatever we please without mainstream culture kicking us about.
I guess the real question is why would we care whether other people see us as adults?
Well on the one hand, it doesn’t matter. We are an individualistic society, so to some extent it doesn’t matter how others perceive you. On the other hand, we are social creatures and we have to interact with other people daily. How other people view you affects how you see yourself, and how you see yourself affects how you present yourself to other people. It becomes quite cyclical. Not to mention, being perceived as an adult is part of the changing identities people go through throughout their lifetimes. The way others interact with you (friends, family, strangers) changes as your… Read more »
” How other people view you affects how you see yourself, and how you see yourself affects how you present yourself to other people.”
Remember schrodinger’s rapist and the presumption of male guilt? Before those were bet articles they were our reality. This is all relatively new in the grand scheme of things but it’s all we young men have ever known. A lot of us have gotten to the point where except for our family, friends, and coworkers we don’t really care how other people perceive us anymore.
It is difficult to comment on this article without saying anything negative about feminism. Can the censorship rules be relaxed within the limited scope of comments to this specific article? I don’t think that this would create a “slippery slope” situation that would cross-contaminate other articles.
The problem is: Men who chose to “grow up” face an impossibly hostile world. This world is made hostile by specific forms of feminist discrimination (institutional and legal). Many men respond by rejecting the hostile world, because they have the “wrong” genitalia and consequently have few legal rights or institutional protections.
Aye
When Shakespeare made the assertion that “Tis better to have loved and lost…” he had no understanding of modern day divorce court, child support and alimony, VAWA, or how men are treated in cases of rape and sexual assault accusations.
“Tis better to play videogames and watch Southpark than to ever get married at all.”
Oh my god, you guys are all such misogynists for not wanting to marry women and settle down. You failed to launch, bro! *insert shaming tactic here*
Stop playing goddamned videogames! Go marry some woman so she can have your kids and divorce you so you can only see them on the weekends!
Do you want to get married or do you hate women?
Those are the only two options. Your dreams and ambitions are no longer important. Because you have entered the *creepy music* Feminist Zone *creepy music*
In fairness, this doesn’t strike me as much of a feminist argument. I don’t hear feminist organisations often complaining about men not hitching up.
No, but they do fight shared parenting tooth and nail.
In other words, they know divorce laws are unfair to men, and they like it that way.
If, theoretically, women are flourishing like never before because of feminism (i.e. because of the way that feminists have gotten rid of the strict life script and traditional gender roles of the past), then wouldn’t it make more sense for men to do them same thing in order to flourish? It makes sense of you use the same logic that most of the rest of us are using. However if you are then its a case of, “Women should be free to live their lives as they wish!” and “Men should be free to live their lives as they should…….as… Read more »
Yeah that question about gaming was somewhat rhetorical. I’m a gamer myself. 🙂 And I agree that the traditional model should be an option…it took feminism a bit of time to realize that the traditional gender role for women shouldn’t be rejected out of hand…that it’s all about individual choice and options. Because, actually, for a long time it was actually “women should be free to live their lives…so long as feminists approve.” It’s only fairly recently that feminism’s accepted stay-at-home mothers as individuals exercising as much free will as a woman who becomes a CEO. But yeah, that’s my… Read more »
I haven’t read the book, so my critique is only based on the bits in this article…but oh my goodness this is extremely problematic, in so many ways. For one thing, it seems to be suggesting that the traditional gender roles were actually a good thing. Which, traditional gender roles left a lot of men (and women) screwed over too. I think the answer to solving a lot of the gender issues we have is to look forward, not try to bring the old model back. Second, what the heck is with this idea that all women are driven by… Read more »
Yes, that was a bit ranty.
Ranty? Yes. But legit. You also brought women into the mix as well. Having both voices can only do good. It’s true that the Good Men Project should avoid hypo-agency of the group it discusses. That proved to be a large flaw in parts of Feminism when it claimed women had no control over themselves.GirlWritesWhat discussed this in her recent youtube video. We should be able to discuss sociological pressures, but still retain our personal responsibility if we succumb to them. “The same thing happens to women” I must criticize, though. This is a bit of a “what about the… Read more »
Right, I am not “whataboutthewomenz-ing.” If this had just been a book about men, and if it hadn’t made some big generalizations about how our culture treats women, then I wouldn’t have brought them up. Yes, you can totally discuss issues from the perspective of one gender and not necessarily need to mention the other. However, the excerpts in the article show that the book is actually bringing feminine gender roles into the discussion already. So I’m saying, if the book is going to discuss feminine gender roles, it should at least do it accurately.
If, theoretically, women are flourishing like never before because of feminism (i.e. because of the way that feminists have gotten rid of the strict life script and traditional gender roles of the past), then wouldn’t it make more sense for men to do them same thing in order to flourish?” That is exactly what is happening. Feminism has flipped the script. As women are more driven in their careers, many men are less so. Feminist influence has socialized them to no longer feel a need to be able to support a family, to be the protector/provider/leader / martyr. They are… Read more »
Exactly. It’s not that men are “downgrading” to new gender roles. It’s that for so long, the norm was to sacrifice our own personal health in pursuit of monetary success, and usefulness to our wives and children. Now, with these new roles, we’re slowing down and taking care of ourselves more than we have historically. We aren’t becoming “sub-par”, we’re just becoming content with “at par” for our own sakes. The bar has just been raised so high by history, and people just forgot where that bar was. For instance, check this out: ht tp://www.thelocal.se/14344/20080915/ Sweden is top in the… Read more »
Eric, Once again, (to my mind) the book’s thrust isn’t about stay-at-home dads or whatever. The book’s thrust is that a significant percentage (translating to hundreds of thousands) of men are refusing to pair-bond with women at all. These men are perfectly happy to stay single far past the age at which becoming a father or husband is a viable option. I agree with Hymowitz that this is bad for society. But, this is the only logical path until the powers-that-be are willing to talk about and redress the abysmally biased state of our family courts and other issues involving… Read more »
Great points Heather
Guys, who gives a rats a**. Unless you are the lead dog the view never changes!
Get out front and lead, period. You cannot be a King while behaving like a Queen.
I am proud, talented, intelligent, confident, masculine, authoritative, a Southern gentleman, and a Dad. But above all else, I am an unrepentant swinging dick!
Speak softly and carry a big stick!
Hymowitz and her “grown up” world are discriminatory and dehumanizing to men, boys, and fathers. In response, more and more men adhere to MGTOW. Why should men buy in or contribute to a society where: 1) Government structurally discriminates against men, even though men have far worse heatlh outcomes than women. 2) Schools systematically dehumanize and marginalize boys, even though boys have far worse outcomes than girls. 3) Universities endlessly promote female participation (while discriminating against males) even though far more women attend, compared to men. 4) Family courts discriminate so heavily against fathers that it has become virtually impossible… Read more »
I cant help but be a little insulted. Just because I read comics, play video games and watch south park doesn’t make me a man child. They’re hobbies. I can’t have hobbies anymore? Im not interested in hunting, fishing, or fixing up cars. I don’t really like to drive all that much either, and somehow that makes me lesser than?
I haven’t failed to launch either, Im having a hard time finding a job, the majority of the unemployed are men, somehow its our fault, we have to change, we always have to change, women don’t. Its exhausting.
I understand now why women have rearranged the resource constructs in order to create matriarchy. Not only the the transference of male labor to them outside of and after marriage but on a social and political scale as well. I expect them to also continue to lobby for more resources from the government to support it. Once men understand women’s intention behind the change and marriage laws and the actions they have taken to divert resources to themselves I think we can come to better terms with it and establish a new masculine identity that does not involve marriage and… Read more »
I think the best efforts of men now should be spent as bachelors. I plan to get a house with my buddies. I see us grilling food, video games, sports, motorcycles and just having fun. This is where male purpose and dignity can be found while living under matriarchy. Matriarchy as a system of social organization exists in certain other cultures as well. Men resolve to do the same there as well. Single mother births are high, children from multiple fathers as well, there is also not fatherhood. Our culture is in the transformation to a matriarchal social structure. I… Read more »
This is EXACTLY what I expected. Women are encouraged to take on new roles, but when men change things up to rediscover themselves as well: “Where have all the REAL men gone?!” Predictable. So predictable. South Park Watching? Video Gaming? Seriously? I hear this stuff a lot. I’m not much of a gamer myself, but I can definitely say there’s nothing much less mature about a gamer. It’s a legitimate form of media (like a film but interactive) whose action-oriented nature pertains primarily to men. The fact that she’s not interested is her opinion, NOT an objective description of maturity.… Read more »
Men have no place in a matriarchal society, especially under feminist marriage law. I will not marry and know that fatherhood is not a right nor do I have the right to my body and thus the fruits of its labor. On a societal / political scale the system is designed to divert resources and support to women and girls only. Their is no honor in a legal relationship with women. Their is nothing worth male honor and commitment. With the amount of resources devoted to female advancement and the results of such advancement there is little motivation to compete… Read more »
Sorry, not entirely sure I get it. What exactly is wrong with these so-called “foolish” pursuits? I’m 26, am just finishing off my PhD, spend a fair amount of time playing computer games and having fun in a myriad of different ways, while holding onto a large number of strong relationships with people I care about. Together these things make me happy, I have no desire to settle down yet (I haven’t even met someone I would choose to settle down with) and yet for some reason this makes me less of a man, and I should “blame” the rise… Read more »
What exactly is wrong with these so-called “foolish” pursuits?
It is wrong, because our role is to be a disposable beast-of-burden for this queenly caste
“It is wrong, because our role is to be a disposable beast-of-burden for this queenly caste”
Yes, exactly. Women are starting to notice that the slaves are leaving the plantation and they’re not happy about it.