When it comes to porn and its usage in a committed relationship, Hugo Schwyzer and Aaron Gouveia don’t agree. A civil, heated, and provocative debate ensues.
Editor’s note: This exchange between Hugo and Aaron (aka DaddyFiles) was lifted directly from the comment section of the post: “Are Most Men Like This”? Sex, Lies and the Newsweek Study.
Daddy Files: How can you speak of the importance of honesty after your last piece in which you had absolutely no qualms about a woman LYING to her future husband about the paternity of their child?
It is the absolute height of hypocrisy my friend.
Not to sound like an MRA, but it’s instances like this that make me feel you really do have a very real bias against men—and women can do no wrong. Seriously, let’s think about this.
You’re knocking guys who choose to keep their occasional porn viewing habits a secret because it might upset their significant other. Yet you never once criticized a woman who married a man after getting pregnant with a baby that might not even be his. The paternity lie is FAR WORSE than not telling your wife you watch porn because she gets unreasonably upset about it. Yet here’s an entire column dedicated to honesty, when clearly you seem to think only men need to come clean. Women, apparently, can do whatever they want.
For such a smart guy this one was extremely disingenuous and, frankly, pretty upsetting.
Hugo: DF, you really don’t see the difference? The distinction is that I was (and still am) in no place to criticize Jill. The only people who are are women who have found themselves in similar situations. She was the pregnant one, and she had the moral authority to call the shots on what was disclosed. I didn’t have the right then and still don’t now to override that decision, and I’ll place my entire reputation as a writer and a husband and a father on that. (I think that’s called doubling down.) In a perfect world, would Jill have been honest with Ted up front? Yup. And in a perfect world we’d all use contraception every time, save when we we’re trying to make babies.
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“Are men who lie about porn viewing the scum of the earth? Of course not. But it’s weak sauce to say that ‘I’d tell her the truth, but she can’t handle the truth.’” –Hugo
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Are men who lie about porn viewing the scum of the earth? Of course not. But it’s weak sauce to say that “I’d tell her the truth, but she can’t handle the truth.” I am in a position to say that because I am a man who has used porn — just as a woman who had been pregnant out of wedlock and unsure of the father’s identity is in a better position to weigh in on what Jill did.
It’s not a bias against men. It’s a belief that men should call out other men before we call out women. I hardly think that’s hypocritical. YMMV.
Daddy Files: I’ve never murdered somebody in cold blood. By your rationale I’m not allowed to condemn that action or judge others who have, simply because I’ve never engaged in that specific activity. That line of thinking is the definition of weak sauce.
In the case of Jill, I’m not arguing it was your place to override her decision. But I certainly think you’d be well within your rights to criticize her decision because of the obvious lack of honesty and high level of manipulation and deceit. That’s just fair play and common sense.
But most troubling is when you say “It’s a belief that men should call out other men before we call out women.” Are you kidding?? People should call out other people when it’s deserved. Gender does not factor into it at all. The fact that it does for you is a little strange, and rather telling. If we’re really all about equality then a lie is a lie is a lie. I’m not going to refrain from criticizing one person who lies just because that person is a woman (or a man). The fact that you think men should focus on solely calling out other men before women is just…well, confusing.
But I guess if we’re talking about honesty at all costs then men will need to come clean when their wives have gained weight and ask the question “Do I look fat?” Or tell her we love how she looks when she asks us, even if we’re not fond of her wardrobe. My point is we all tell little lies, or at the very least withhold the truth, because we don’t want to hurt the person we’re with. Obviously you can’t take that to an extreme, but you also can’t go around saying every little truth that’s on your mind. We’d be taking frying pans to the head.
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Hugo: Aaron, if you want to revisit the discussion about the paternity issue, let’s do it in another thread. Controversy drives things — write a post explaining why my stance pissed you off, and let’s put it out there. Or let it lie. But I’d like to keep this thread focused on porn.
Porn use is not like other little white lies. We don’t live with our sexuality in compartments; what gets us off alone will invariably have direct implications for the person with whom we’re getting off when we’re together. (Bad syntax, but you get the idea.)
The right to use porn and the right to be in a porn-free relationship are both conditional. And the sad thing is that many women would like to be in porn free relationships, but acquiesce to their partners’ porn use because if there’s one thing that they dislike MORE than porn, it’s dishonesty.
I don’t think that’s analogous to a partner’s weight gain, either. People need to eat, people gain weight. People also need sexual pleasure. But they don’t need to use images of other people to get off. I think there’s a colossal distinction between saying “I don’t want to be in a relationship with a partner who uses porn” and saying “I don’t want my partner to ever masturbate.” If a man can’t get off to a fantasy in his head (if he’s in a relationship, preferably about his partner) then he’s had a rather sad failure of imagination.
Again, I’m not anti-porn. I think porn use is fine. But I also think it ought to be negotiable in a relationship rather than just assumed or tolerated.
Daddy Files: Hugo, sticking to the porn thread, I’ll address your last point.
You wrote “If a man can’t get off to a fantasy in his head (if he’s in a relationship, preferably about his partner) then he’s had a rather sad failure of imagination.” Huh? You’re really trying to judge people on how they fantasize and masturbate and who they should be imagining?? That’s just crap.
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“Just because you imagine the Swedish bikini team giving you a collective rubdown doesn’t mean you love your wife any less. That’s why it’s fantasy.” –Aaron
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Just because you imagine the Swedish bikini team giving you a collective rubdown doesn’t mean you love your wife any less. That’s why it’s fantasy. Forget pornographic movies, we go to the mainstream cinema to watch films like Harry Potter so we can temporarily escape from reality. There’s nothing wrong with that. Just like there’s nothing wrong with conjuring up an image of a woman different from your wife. Second, who cares if someone needs visual stimuli to masturbate? Some people are more visual than others. So what? Condemning men for not having an imagination is just silly.
But more often than not, women make clear their disdain for porn after either having a discussion about it with guys or finding it on their browser history. Most men who are casual porn viewers don’t feel they’re doing anything wrong, so there’s no need to tell their girlfriends/wives. Now if those women ask about porn specifically I think it’s worth the conversation, but those women have to be reasonable. But usually—as evidenced by the women in your aforementioned example—they automatically and incorrectly peg us as “porn addicts” and wonder what’s wrong with us.
What you seem to be saying is “If a woman has a problem with pornography and her husband doesn’t stop watching it, he’s a thoughtless jerk.” That’s not true. Marriage does not mean doing whatever your wife says. If two people have different opinions about things, it does not mean the woman is always right.
Luckily my wife has zero problems with porn, and likes it herself sometimes. If she did have an issue, I’d listen and we’d discuss it. If she persisted and gave me an ultimatum—the “either porn goes or I go” speech—I would probably go. Not because I’m a porn freak, but because I would never want to be married to someone who lacked the ability to compromise and respect my point of view.
Any woman who would leave a man SOLELY because he watches some porn is ridiculous. And I have no qualms about saying that because it’s true.
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Hugo: Aaron, right back atcha:
Any man who would leave a woman SOLELY because she objects to his masturbating to porn is ridiculous. And I have no qualms about saying that because it’s true.
Hell, let’s leave the genders out of it, because I happily admit many women DO like porn and some men don’t. So Spouse 1′s longing to use porn matters. Spouse 2′s longing to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t use porn also matters. I’m willing to stipulate they matter equally. What gets my goat is the implication that Spouse 1′s wanting to use porn is “normal and healthy” while Spouse 2 is an unrealistic control freak. No, they both have needs that are EQUALLY VALID.
Aaron, will you grant that?
Daddy Files: First of all Hugo, as I already explained I wouldn’t leave because she didn’t like me masturbating to porn. I would leave because she’s giving me an unreasonable ultimatum based on something completely insignificant. That is a major red flag.
And no, actually I can’t grant you your last point. Here’s why…
First of all, let’s leave out those with porn addictions. They need help and have a problem. Instead, let’s talk about run-of-the-mill porn users. No lap dances, no phone sex, no prostitutes. Just your average joe who spanks it on occasion to free Internet porn. He doesn’t do it in the presence of his wife, because she doesn’t approve. He has a healthy sex life and his porn viewing does not interfere or detract from his marriage.
So in short, we have a woman upset about nothing. She doesn’t see him watch porn, she doesn’t hear him watch porn and he’s not choosing porn over her. Which begs the question: why the hell is she upset??
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“So in short, we have a woman upset about nothing. She doesn’t see him watch porn, she doesn’t hear him watch porn and he’s not choosing porn over her. Which begs the question: why the hell is she upset??” –Aaron
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If she doesn’t like porn, she shouldn’t watch it. She has every right to her personal preference. But asking her husband to stop something he was doing long before he met her—not to mention something that has no bearing on her life—is ludicrous.
I’m a Red Sox fan. I hate the Yankees. But if I married a diehard New York fan do I have the right to tell her to stop rooting for the Yankees simply because they offend me greatly (which they absolutely do)?? No, of course not. I don’t like the fact that she roots for the Yankees, but I have no right to tell her to stop.
This is the same thing.
Hugo: “his porn viewing does not interfere or detract from his marriage.”
Well, nothing could be more subjective than that. If she doesn’t want a sexual life that’s compartmentalized, if she wants all of the sexual energy flowing into the marriage and not dissipated elsewhere, that’s as valid a view as his is.
What bugs the crap out of me is the insistence that women are being shrewish harridans for wanting their partners to be sexual only with them. Men aren’t bad for saying “no” to that — but women aren’t wrong to ask or to make it a deal-breaker.
Sex is not like other human activities in terms of its ability to enthrall us and captivate us. It is normal, it is healthy, but it is also unique in its appeal to intimacy. And it’s wildly unreasonable for a woman to say “I want you to be intimate only with me, and I feel that masturbating to images of other women compromises that intimacy.” He doesn’t have to agree – but HE DOESN’T GET TO TELL HER THAT HER FEELINGS ARE UNREASONABLE. If he does that, he’s far more controlling than she.
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“He doesn’t have to agree – but HE DOESN’T GET TO TELL HER THAT HER FEELINGS ARE UNREASONABLE. If he does that, he’s far more controlling than she.” –Hugo
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Aaron: This is the heart of the problem, when you write, “What bugs the crap out of me is the insistence that women are being shrewish harridans for wanting their partners to be sexual only with them.”
You think a guy jerking off to porn is some kind of cheating. You think it’s being sexual with someone else. THIS IS NOT TRUE! If I’m watching porn I’m not “with” anyone. I’m by myself. I’m not cheating, I’m just whacking off. Probably because my wife can’t/won’t have sex with me at the time.
If you jerk off in the shower and Halle Berry pops into your head, are you cheating? Are you robbing your wife of sexual intimacy? Hell no. You’re jerking off. Even when you watch porn you haven’t had sex with another woman, kissed another woman, touched another woman…hell, you haven’t even been in the same room with another woman! I contend (again, unless we’re talking about a porn addict) this is a non-factor and has no bearing on the marriage.
But for the guys who are merely using porn to tide them over until they can once again be intimate with their wives, I can tell you with 100% certainty they are not doing anything wrong and the women are getting upset about nothing.
About the Editors
Wow. Who would have guessed that the most commented on post on record for this website (I am guessing here) would boil down to a conversation about viewing porn and masturbation? I followed the heated debate between Hugo and Dave (?) yesterday. I was fascinated by the strength with which each defended their position. I thought it was an exceptional display of one important dimension of manhood – the refusal to back down from something we feel strongly about. Thanks for staying with it guys. Good stuff.
Excising porn addicts (or porn addiction) from a conversation about porn is akin to talking about the glories of dessert but exempting the overweight from chiming in.
It’s a deceptively fine line between use/ abuse. From my work in this field, I can assure you that no single porn addict EVER set out to become one; it always started with plain, old curiosity. We might well consider our own potential vulnerability to it while we’re so vehemently defending our right to use porn.
Why it’s relevant to this thread is that because once compulsion takes hold, our free choice evaporates, including the choice to be honest or not with one’s partner. And by then, the marriage has been thrown under the bus, with the non-using partner almost always being blamed for something/ anything.
I propose GMP really get things cooking and post a survey of our values for all members of this site to take. Then, host a one month porn-off. Those still left standing after the month take a lie-detector test to verify they actually went a month without. Then give them another survey on those same values and allow them to facilitate the Next Debate on Honesty around Porn here.
Otherwise, speaking about honesty here is a partial conversation and undermines the “cunning, baffling, and powerful” nature of addiction.
I guess my concern regarding honesty is that we live in a sex-negative culture. Simply because someone lies about their porn use doesn’t make them an addict. It makes them ashamed or just wanting to keep it private.
If people weren’t fearful about being fully self-expressed about their sexuality you’d have a lot less lying about all sorts of sexual behaviors. The fact that this fear exists or that people are judged negatively because of their sexuality doesn’t mean it is an addiction or some sort of blight on society.
You are correct, Jeni- “Simply because someone lies about their porn use doesn’t make them an addict”. Correct. Show me where I said otherwise.
An addict is an addict because they know themselves to be one and/ or they have been diagnosed by a Certified Sex Addiction Therapist to be one, and even then, it’s not a rubber stamp–it’s based on criteria that BOTH the compulsive and the therapist come to conclude together.
And I don’t disagree that we’re living in a sex-negative culture, but as Hugo Schwyzer pointed out in one of his recent columns (last week?) a lot of that has to do with the trust that good relationships need to thrive in, often not being forthcoming.
I also agree with you that we need less fear of self-expressing so that people don’t feel the need to lie in the first place. At PoSARC.com that is part of our mission, to alleviate the shame around sexuality for precisely the reasons you so rightly named. That plus once compulsion/ addiction does set in, if someone’s feeling crippled by shame from his community, s/he won’t get help. Thanks for your views, Jeni!
Lili Bee, your argument confuses me a little. I agree that the line bewtween use and abuse is thin and the slope on which that line stands is slippery. And that is true of anything – not just porn. Substitute porn for anything else, and your point is valid. This conversation, however, is hyper-charged by the fact that it revolves around sexuality and relationships. I contend that all things in moderation are not harmful. I also contend that a relationship based on full disclosure is based on suspicion and is, ultimately, an un-trusting relationship. Relationships remain interesting to the degree that there is room for the individual and there is room for some mystery. So if one partner enjoys porn (substitute any word you want here), in moderation, and chooses not to tell her/his partner, there should be room for that in a trusting and healthy relationship. If porn is not the word used, the whole tone of the conversation is much less charged.
Roger- Forgive me if I’m not understanding your question correctly but you keep saying, “if it were anything but porn….”
But why the abstraction? The entire point of everything being written here in Hugo and Daddy File’s disagreement IS about porn!
To start crafting other metaphors and what-if’s only confuses and takes us off-point. So I’m not sure what purpose it serves to imagine we’re speaking about anything else…?
Also- you state “So, if one partner enjoys porn (substitute any word you want here) in moderation, and chooses not to tell her/his partner, there should be room for that in a trusting and healthy relationship.”
Using the words “chooses not to tell his/her partner” in the same sentence as ” in a trusting…relationship” reveals, to me, a paradox I choose not to invite into my relationships today. Trust is the first thing that erodes in the absence of honesty, and takes forever to rebuild, so in my mind, it’s not worth it.
Roger,
I made a very similar point to Lili Bee a couple days ago and am waiting for her to reply. However, I specifically cited women’s use of vibrators and other sex toys accompanied by steamy romance novels, magazines, etc. that get them aroused. That serves the same purpose as porn except there is a virtual third person touching her and/or penetrating her.
Not surprisingly, the feminist porn critics have no problem with women doing the very same thing as men, except they take it a step further and have a virtual lover “down there” bringing them to climax in record time. The message is that women using sexual outlets is good, but men’s use is bad. It’s not a stretch to conclude that their ultimate message and ideology is that men are bad.
The illusion (or delusion) of porn is to replicate the experience of having or watching sexually provocative acts. Of course this is not real but our brains WANT it to be. That seems to be the rub for those that would object to their partner watching porn. The fact that their partner is wanting to have that sexual experience with others rather than themselves.
It sure appears that those that are into porn (if you are in a relationship) don’t want to own up to the possibility (or probability) that the feelings behind your actions are creating distance or damage between you and your partner, so many would be deceptive about it. This is what the article is about, yes or no? Deception or lying is a huge and often traumatic issue within relationships. Is it ok to be deceptive, or not?
There are those of you that feel absolutely sure that porn does not have any effect on your relationship, maybe cause you watch it together (sometimes) or claim that your partner is fine with it. If that is really true then that is your relationship, it’s all yours. Nobody is going to take away your vices and devices.
We do not live in a Puritanical dictatorship of King George (or Caligula). Those that choose open relationships, with other people, porn or whatever way that looks like, knock yourselves out. Seriously. And those of us that choose fidelity and honesty can do so as well.
Where the wrecking ball is swinging thru this argument is how all of this affects our love, of our partners and of our selves. If your lovers are fully aware of your behaviors and are fine with it, even share or support it, then Hallelujah for you. But if our lovers are hurt, or would be hurt if they knew of our behaviors, then we have some issues to work out. The relationship may not be able to repair broken trust issues.
When we knowingly are doing something that we believe to be bad, we generate shame within ourselves. And shame has huge and damaging effects to us in deep levels. This is not honoring and loving to ourselves. But of course, if you are feeling sure that you are not doing anything that you believe to be bad, there is no shame being generated. You get to be you.
Maybe in future marriage vows, or beginning of relationship agreements, there will be need for a porn disclosure because there sure seems to be a lot of protective, deceptive and hostile stances out there. What this discussion seems to be about is simple honesty in a relationship. Why all the hostility?
I won’t argue with the main thrust of your argument, Kenny. I think it’s quite acceptable that a couple could agree not to have either partner watch porn. Or whatever. I do think, though, that we probably ought to try some of the things we “know to be bad.” I say this because I believe that sexuality plays a unique role in our culture as a touchstone for extra repression, which makes us ultimately less democratic and autonomous. The guilt and shame imposed on children is a deeper “bad” as far as I’m concerned. It serves to attach something like a “handle” to us where we can be controlled. Men and women should not oppress each other of course, but consider that the “sexual harrassment” discourse is used by employers to promote more control over workers and an exaggerated productionist ethic. Autonomy is squashed, and people start referring to normal flirting (which is healthy) as “predation.” (Predation used to mean serial murderers or rapists.) I think flirting humanizes a workplace. I’m not referring to real sexual harrassment, of course, like quid pro quo, but what some have referred to as “hostile environment,” which many have ratcheted up to mean any sexual or flirty references. I’m extremely suspicious of this reintroduction of repressive-productionist discourses.
(Henry, I’ve been trying to comprehend what others in this thread are feeling about the issue in the article, honesty about porn use. To my understanding, the article is not suggesting that porn be banned from relationships, just that those that have porn in it should be above boards. The responses have sent many ricochet arguments, mostly all skirting the issue. It’s like ADD on steroids. If you would and could, please try to keep the conversation on topic. We all know there’s seriously bad and detrimental issues out there and maybe we can address some of those you mentioned on some other blog or thread?)
When you wrote ["we probably ought to try some of the things we “know to be bad.”] What were you saying? Was that meaning that sexuality is like a social lubricant (no pun intended) and helps our culture evolve? That’s what I got out of it but can you explain?
Hi Kenny,
I suggested that due to extra repression, *some* of the behavior we’re discouraged from is more natural and normal than we think. This might include viewing and using erotica. (I used the side-example of tightening sexual harrassment codes because we’ve all seen this as adults.) I’m suggesting that a more experimental, less prescriptive approach to sexuality would be better. I think a more eroticized, less repressive society would be better. My argument parallels Herbert Marcuse’s in Eros and Civilization. I’m not advocating sex with childrem or anything that really *is* bad, but am advocating for loosening up adult sensuality and sexuality.
This subject has bothered me to the point that I reread the transcript that compromises this article. I found a couple of items that would maybe score in a debate competition.
1- The topic of this article/debate is about honesty and compromise in a relationship for those who use porn, should we bring it out in the open or hide the truth? There has been many ricochet arguments that strayed off topic.
2- The topic is not about some other article regarding paternity issues. What seems to be that (non-sequitur) mud-fight is to suggest that if Hugo was judged to have made a bad compromise under duress then that person will therefore be wrong in everything else he does? Can anyone throw that first stone? And how does that even relate to being above boards about porn in a relationship?
3- DF has not addressed the topic of compromise and honesty other than stating that his wife is not kept in the dark about his behavior. Which means that he does not lie! Good for you DF, but that bit of integrity would seem to more support the argument for compromise and being honest.
My position on the subject is that we can all create our own relationships. Nobody has the right to enforce honesty (or deception) onto other people. There’s evidence and theory for those that are interested in either direction but the bottom line is ‘to each their own’. I think John Lennon said it simply, “And in the end, the love we take is equal to the love we make.”
This argument proves the futiliity in trying to convince anyone of anything. I might as well try to get all the air molecules in the room to all start moving in exactly the same direction, because *en masse*, people aren’t much different.
We all have our own perception of the world. My worldview isn’t necessarily yours. So why must you think like me? I think the goal is just to find people with a highly compatible worldview then take it from there.
Bringing it back to the first paragraph. Not telling a man he might not be the father of “his child” is not as bad as keeping porn use secret? Good lord, Hugo, you must have been a teenager during the 90′s – the feminazi movement – and allowed yourself to be indoctrinated. By the way, these ladies, once having turned 33+, have since apologized for their behaviour….
“Baby, I beat the boss from time to time. You weren’t home and I fancied a little variety.”
- Me too. BTW, this 20yr old son of yours? Isn’t yours.
“Oh, ok honey. Well I guess that makes us even.”
If there is nothing wrong with porn, then would you allow your daughter to pose? It does no harm? If you are a good dad, and there is nothing wrong with it, then you wouldn’t mind some other guy whacking off to a picture of your daughter after she is of age. Correct? Or your wife or partner. If it is just looking and spanking, why shouldn’t they help another dude out. Or if this is O.K. with you, then how about your son when he heads off to college. He is not gay but why shouldn’t he make money from letting other guys look at him on the internet. You continue to tell me there is no harm, it is the choice of those that pose. It does not objectify.
Your porn use (and my mine as well) objectifies women, whether or not she is cool with it or not, it tells your wife that sex is not as intimate as she had thought or hoped because you can do it with her or by yourself, or with someone else in your head with her or by yourself. You begin to erode at the value of others, the value of your significant others, and the value of your own children because those people who made the choice to pose (or didn’t) are someone else’s child as well. I am working to stay as far away from porn as possible because of what it does to me, my marriage, and MILLIONS of other marriages. Tell your daughter I am not going to be able to support her in college while she poses because I ain’t playing or paying. But tell her it is O.K. because there is not anything wrong with it. You say it here in this article and you say it through your choices.
StrongFathers, I have a daughter and a son. If either of them chose porn as a profession, I would support them. I would tell them to be strong with their boundaries and not to think this will be a life-long career though.
Yes, porn objectifies. So does the fashion industry. As long as boundaries are respected, I don’t have a problem with it.
It is worth noting that women objectify men all the time, not so much as sex objects but as money and success objects. But porn is an easier target, and our culture doesn’t encourage us to look at the less admirable side of certain women.
“If there is nothing wrong with porn, then would you allow your daughter to pose?”
I never understood this argument. In a diverse society there are plenty of different values and different wants and need. I never wanted to be a plumber but I wouldn’t hesitate to employ one. I don’t think plumbers are morally objectionable or don’t less respect for plumbers. I would strongly advise against my daughter joining the army in most circumstances (a war like WW2 being the possible exception), or the police or other dangerous professions but I don’t think the police are morally objectionable or wrong.
As for porn stars, I would not have any problem hanging out with them, knowing them and I don’t have less respect for them.
“If you are a good dad, and there is nothing wrong with it, then you wouldn’t mind some other guy whacking off to a picture of your daughter after she is of age. ”
No I would not mind. And I don’t see who its hurting.
Honestly, no, I would be deeply worried if I had a daughter who wanted to act in porn movies. I would probably try to talk her out of it. I’d want her to have a different career.
I can see how that might look hypocritical, but only if you use really faulty logic. Just because I’d be paranoid about dangers to my daughter doesn’t mean that the activity is therefore morally wrong. If I had a child who wanted to join the military, I’d try really hard to talk him/her out of that as well. That doesn’t mean military service is morally wrong, or at least it doesn’t mean that I think military service is wrong. I would just have selfish reasons for preferring someone else’s child do it.
I’m glad my society has a police force, but I would prefer my kids chose a less dangerous job. That doesn’t make me anti-police or pro-police.
One of the nice things about being a gay male is that the partnership is made up two guys who don’t have a problem whatsoever with porn, and often enjoy it together. The “Strong Father” post about daughters and sons is good for a few campy laughs. I’ve met college-age guys who work in porn, and not only do they know they are being “objectified”, but they thoroughly enjoy it! I don’t think there is a need for me to write to their dads and apologize for rubbing one out over a picture of their sons, particularly since their dads are most likely rubbing one out over somebody else’s grown daughter or son (I know, that is not something we are supposed to talk about).
News flash, “Strong Father” — we “objectify” people all the time — as celebrities, as politicians, as sport heroes — and it happens with the objectified’s consent and even collaboration. Women spend billions annually in cosmetics and clothing in order to be checked out, while guys lift weights and invest in flashy cars — and so what? I know we all have beautiful souls and such, but enjoying somebody’s external qualities is not mutually exclusive with acknowledging their humanity. Unless you want to go to the extremes of the Taliban and make sure women are covered up from head to toe lest men have a single lustful thought about them.
I have a gay friend who says that the gay community is vicious towards aging men. He says that if you’re not young and buff you’re insignificant, to put it mildly. That’s not very good evidence for building long-term security in a relationship. The harsh truth is, we live in a difficult time in a socially adolescent or immature culture. One can NOT only hope that we grow up but we must actively undertake the challenges of doing so. And mutual respect and honoring of each other is a very healing and healthy way to begin.
“The gay community is vicious towards aging men”. Gee, and then why don’t aging gay men turn towards EACH OTHER for relationships? Ah, because they too, lust the “young and buff”, but rather than admit it, they complain that nobody appreciates their beautiful inner selves…even though they themselves are hardly seeking a relationship with somebody solely for his beautiful inner self. Anyhow, I know of too many inter-generational relationships (e.g. guy in his 20s hitched to a guy his 50s) to give such a claim about “viciousness” much credibility.
What mostly ticks me off about this article is how judgmental you’re being, DaddyFiles. My fiance didn’t think it unreasonable at all to stop watching porn when he entered in a relationship with me. I never nagged him about it. He was simply honest with me in a straightforward manner on the phone one day when we were in a long distance relationship, and I reasonably told him why I didn’t like that. I didn’t actually expect him to give it up, especially since we’d only been dating a month, but he respected my wishes and did. And it’s none of your business as to the reasons why I find it problematic. My reasons are just as valid as your reasons for viewing porn. I’m also going to be honest when I say I think it’d be A LOT easier for you to give up porn than for your wife (or whoever) to accept your porn use. The first one doesn’t involve emotional turmoil (and if it does, there is clearly some other problem going on that needs to be addressed), while the latter does involve emotional turmoil. Now I have no problem at all with what you choose to do in your relationship, so long as your partner as no problems. My problem lies in how you choose to view other women who have a problem with it, especially if these women are in HEALTHY relationships with men who have no problem giving up porn use for them. I also want to mention that when you get in a relationship, it’s a give and take. Sometimes you have to give up something in a relationship to gain something, and I’m not talking about something earth shatteringly important, like giving up your friends. I’m talking about something meager: like porn use, or you can no longer just throw your clothes on the floor now that ‘X’ person is living with you. And yes, giving up porn use is not a stringent demand. I can respect your POV all I want, but if I have to accept that in a relationship and am always bothered by it, no matter how hard I try to change, then clearly I need to be the one to leave because I shouldn’t have to find myself emotionally comprised over something that can be easily given up. Of course no relationship is perfect. Of course you’re not going to accept everything your partner does. But if you find yourself emotionally comprised and cannot look at your significant other in a positive light, then the relationship is not healthy and something needs to give.
What both posters are missing here is that there are a large number of women (and men) who are uncomfortable with their partners watching pornography (when they would not be uncomfortable with their partners fantasizing about other people, real or imagined) because “porn culture” and the depictions of sex/social relationships/power dynamics in pornography are fundamentally degrading and damaging to women–because someone who gets off to pornography (or, at least, mainstream pornography) is AT SOME LEVEL getting off on the dehumanization of women, and on a representation of violence against women. (I use women here because I’m talking about the apparent set up in this discussion where it’s a woman objecting to her male partner’s use of pornography. Gay and lesbian porn is problematic too, largely because it inherits some of its practice from the tropes of mainstream heterosexual porn, but it also has a different set of issues at stake). Objections on these grounds seem nothing but reasonable.
I felt that the former husband using porn and hiding it was deceptive. I did not feel like he was cheating by looking. I felt like he was cheating by hiding. By keeping me from sharing part of his sex life. By keeping me held at arms length so I could not know him and his desires. Those desires were more important than the hurt his distance caused and that was the cheating. It should be every person’s right to have a sexual life that is fulfilling and gratifying. It is not the right in a relationship though, to use that sex life to hurt your partner. When you commit you expect your partner to be faithful and honest. My sex life now involves more than one partner. Had my porn loving ex been met with my new lover in his bed he would not feel that it was the same as his porn yet the hurt is the same. I am now, a decade later, a pornographer by profession and open with my partner who freely masturbates in front of me and I do in front of him. The statement that “She can’t handle it” is laughable.