An Open Letter to Men Who Think They’re Immune to Rape Culture

Dudes, Just STOP.

So, listen to me, guys.

And I mean, really listen. Not in that way where you hear what I’m saying but ignore it. Just, listen. You’re not going to like what I have to say. And honestly, most of you reading this are not the problem. But some of you, many of you, in fact, have the potential to slip and be a part of that problem.

We have absolutely no right, as men, to “convince” women to do anything.

Do I have to say it again? Or is that once enough. I would think it’d be enough, but some of the cheap seats are having some trouble with this. So, let me break it down for you.

♦◊♦

If a woman says no, stop, you’re making me uncomfortable, or anything else along those lines—IMMEDIATELY do it.

Why is there a question?

What you’re really hoping for, as you continue to find different ways to contact that woman who blocked you on twitter, as you tell that woman who wants to use barriers for oral sex that she doesn’t know what she’s missing, as you ignore when a woman says you’re making her feel unsafe, is for her to concede.

Why would there ever be a question?

The fact that there IS a question in some of your minds, or the thought that maybe if you just point out why she’s wrong about her impression of you, or that she just misunderstood, or that she’ll be missing out on something awesome if she doesn’t give you a chance–that fact? That’s absolutely appalling.

And you’re wrong. 100%. Without question or caveat. You’re wrong. You’re in the wrong. You’re doing it wrong. No amount of convincing or hearing you out or playing devil’s advocate is going to change that. Your wrongness is a quagmire, and you’re just hunkering down deeper and deeper.

♦◊♦

Let’s be honest.

What you’re really hoping for, as you continue to find different ways to contact that woman who blocked you on twitter, as you tell that woman who wants to use barriers for oral sex that she doesn’t know what she’s missing, as you ignore when a woman says you’re making her feel unsafe, is for her to concede. To concede to you. To let you win. To vindicate what you think is right.

Feminists don’t hate men, they hate how they’re made to feel by men. They hate that they can’t end a conversation until the man they’re talking to decides it’s over, because if they try to he’ll just keep talking…or anything to make his point because it doesn’t matter that they don’t want to talk to him, does it? He has a point to make.

Because what you think is right, is you.

Because you’re a nice guy, right? She didn’t understand you. She didn’t give you a chance.

Fuck you.

Yeah. Fuck you.

Feminists don’t hate men, they hate how they’re made to feel by men. They hate that they can’t end a conversation until the man they’re talking to decides it’s over, because if they try to he’ll just keep talking, if they block his messages he’ll start emailing, or DMing, or anything to make his point because it doesn’t matter that they don’t want to talk to him, does it? He has a point to make.

What gives you the fucking right? You are making us all look bad.

♦◊♦

Rape Culture IS our culture. Because the same thing that makes a man feel it’s okay to violate bodily makes him feel it’s okay to suggest that the woman who just said “No, thank you” to him should give him a chance ‘cuz he’s really rather sweet…or that a woman walking down the street really needs to hear his thoughts on her body.

So many men thoroughly bristle at the term Rape Culture, arguing that they’re not rapists and would never rape someone. But they don’t understand that this is a permeation of our world. Rape Culture IS our culture.

Because the same thing that makes a man feel it’s okay to violate bodily makes him feel it’s okay to suggest that the woman who just said “No, thank you” to him should give him a chance ‘cuz he’s really rather sweet, makes him think that he has the right to say that a woman would be prettier if she smiled, or that a woman walking down the street really needs to hear his thoughts on her body.

It’s also the same thing that makes him feel able to turn vicious. When she rejects him, or calls him on it. When she asserts herself and challenges him. When she shows him anything but deference or fear. That’s when he can hurl everything he’s got at her.

Because that’s when he’s revealed for what he is.

Not a man. But a petulant child. And not just a child, but the nastiest piece of garbage junior high shit stain who ever walked. This person who moments ago was extolling his own virtues in a way that could ALMOST, KINDA, MAYBE make you feel like there might be some good there becomes a fountain of hateful vitriol the moment the light is shined on him.

Darkness allows this to thrive.

♦◊♦

I’m trying to shine the light here, guys.

To shine it on you. Because you’ve upset the scales far too much. You’ve made the world a worse place. You’ve actually made it more difficult to be a man. But none of that even comes close to comparing to how difficult you’ve made it to be a woman.

So truly, stop.

Because if I see it, I’ll shine the light. And you can call me a “basement dwelling hipster motherfucker” if you’d like. (I say that because you weirdly have.) But I’m done watching. I’m done coddling. I’m done trying to talk you out of it. I’m done. The moment you disrespect a woman, it’s over. Women don’t owe you anything. Ever. Not sex, not love, not explanations, not consolation, not even a glance.

Next time you don’t get one of those things you may think yourself owed, do the world a favor and keep it to your fucking self.

∼∼

Cooper S. Beckett

P.S. Now I know there’ll be someone out there who wants to play devil’s advocate, or point out that men disrespect men too and women disrespect men. Just like #AllLivesMatter VS #BlackLivesMatter, you may be saying something that’s true, but you’re not saying something that’s helpful.

Don’t be the glass is 3% full guy.

Photo credit: Getty Images/157397034

About Cooper S. Beckett

Cooper S. Beckett is the founder of Life on the Swingset & host of its swinging & polyamory podcast. He speaks and teaches classes on pegging, swinging, polyamory, play parties, and non-monogamy. He is a graphic & web designer, photographer, and voice over artist, has been a guest expert on Dan Savage’s Savage Lovecast, & is the announcer of Tristan Taormino’s radio show Sex Out Loud. He has written two books, My Life on the Swingset: Adventures in Swinging & Polyamory & A Life Less Monogamous, and is working on two more, The Big Book of Swinging and Approaching The Swingularity.

Comments

  1. @ DJ, (or Anthony, Archy, John Anderson, or any other man..)

    Hello!

    I came across this piece on Medium last evening,

    http://medium.com/@mshannabrooks/why-women-smile-at-men-who-sexually-harass-us-cf4eeb90ed30#.gfz7xejkn

    Let’s forget about the author’s piece…What is your raw feelings about this Medium piece?

    I am not trying to “set you up” or anything of sorts. You can pass if you wish.

    • Hi Jules, and thank you for providing this thought-provoking link.
      I’ll bait… 🙂

      First, I can’t deny her experience. And I can’t object to the “best practice” she has developed to handle this.

      But as a man who is tired, not of hearing about women being harassed, but tired of women being harassed. What am I supposed to do?
      As a rather scrawny 5’8″-ish guy, most men are taller then me. And even the ones at my height are usually heavier built. I would like to be an ally of women, but on occasions like this where I’ve tried to stand up for someone, my experience is either that the man (or men) simply laughs and ask me what I’m going to do about it, or similar to the commenter Tim Ford’s experience the woman tells me she’s fine.

      If we’re quiet, all of the men who don’t harass women, who don’t help themselves to our bodies, can feel better about their own silence.
      I can assure you that it most certainly won’t!
      If I accept being the target of your built-up frustration about it (as in the “unloading” on the bus), what more is there that I can do?

      • @ FlyingKal,

        Thanks for your reply…

        “…….what more is there that I can do?”

        Well, to honest, I really don’t know either FlyingKal. Ot.her than us men open our eyes and hearts to the suffering that so man women are enduring

        Honestly, I was unaware, this problem was so wide spread. Perhaps the number of men doing this is more widespread than I had imagined.

        What I cannot understand about this Medium piece is just why her boyfriend didn’t just slug the guy!! I most certainly would have done so. But, I have few years of Krav Maga training. Otherwise, it is a very dangerous situation given the amount of guns here in America in the hands of crazies and other misfits.

        • FlyingKal says:

          Hi Jules,
          I guess you are right.
          Do you think it’s too late for a guy like me to start taking classes in some kind of martial arts at the age of 45?

  2. I do believe if we were all sitting around a table discussing this issue, there wouldn’t be so much miscommunication. Online is text based, it can be hard to read intention and emotion. I often comment in a style of looking at issues on the big scale and I guess a curiosity to explore all potential aspects. It may come across as low empathy for instance but it’s not meant to be that way. I have a massive amount of curiosity and desire to understand humans, why people do things, why issues like these exist, and I like to explore ways to limit the damage (like taking the power out of crass words online by mentally reframing them).

    I find there can be an adversarial issue between genders can happen in the comment sections, and I think it’s largely to do with the lack of reading body language since this is text-based. Some people are very direct but mean no disrespect, whilst others will try to soften the edges on the argument so it doesn’t sound heartless and different cultures view this differently, this is after all a website that crosses oceans, not just the U.S.

  3. Mostly_123 says:

    I’m not sure if this comparison will work here – there are, of course, profound dissimilarities and discontinuities in this, to say the least, and I’m not trying suggest otherwise, or make light or slight or humor of anything. But using a general metaphor as grounds to explore, I’m wondering if there is something of value to be explored in this:

    One of the most iconic (and, arguably, one of the most effective, least contentious & least controversial) public service campaigns in modern history was in 1947, with Smokey the Bear, and the attendant slogan. According to the Ad Council, Smokey the Bear and his message are recognized in the United States by 95% of adults and 77% of children, or so wikipedia says. 

    As most people still know, the slogan went: “Only YOU can prevent forest fires” 

    But, of course, it doesn’t say or (explicitly or implicitly) suggest ‘We are all equally guilty of equal carelessness with fire in our society’ or ‘Everything we’re doing with fire is looking the other way, and enabling forest fires & arson to continue’ or ‘We live in an arson culture’ 

    It doesn’t try to tie a behavior to a specific demographic or strata, wholesale; as part of a larger social narrative.

    It doesn’t suggest that if you don’t agree exactly with its scope, methodology, or imperative then you are really just shirking responsibility; or worse- that, out of ignorance, obstinacy, social privilege, or bad faith, you are shifting the responsibility, consequences & blame to the forest, and that you pervader, believer, or perpetuator of the repugnant & errant idea that the forest was somehow responsible for the behavior of the arsonist, or for finding a way to mitigate the effects of the fire, or for preventing the fire to begin with.      

    It doesn’t resort to collective overreach or hyperbole: It wishes to elicit a manner of altruistic behavior from its society; but it does not suggest that as such, so to then that society is direly and collectively in need broad social re-engineering. It does not presume a pre-existing bad-will, or purpose of evasion.     

    It invites & invokes the application of personal responsibility; but it does NOT suggest or demand that in doing so the individual then assume a mantle of collective, open-ended responsibility, on a collective social, cultural or demographic scale. Now, this all doesn’t preclude or deny that we live in society that has fires, that has people who are reckless with fire & fire safety, and has arsonists. But it also does not try to suggest that simply because of this fact, therefore, our collective culture constitutes the phenomenon itself, and is uniformly culpable and complicit: That our ‘culture’ tacitly (or overtly) ignores, mitigates, endorses, encourages, or perpetuates arson. And this, because the entire culture (covertly or overtly) has dangerously lackadaisical, irresponsible, reprehensible, uniform attitudes (which translates directly and only into one concomitant behavior) towards fire safety; which, in itself, is the equivalent of arson. And all this, because the culture systemically loves recklessness with fire, hates trees, and wants nothing more than to exploit & suppress the forest with perpetuated arson, in its ‘arson culture.’   

    It doesn’t equate insufficient fire safety as an absolute societal state or attitude (rather than a relative or situational one), which in turn it equates to the equivalent of arson. 

    It doesn’t equate anecdotal attitudes towards fire safety (lax or cautious) as the equivalent to insufficient fire safety, as the equivalent of arson.

    It doesn’t suggest (implicitly or explicitly) that heretofore ‘you’ are *not* of the mind to prevent forest fires, or not already preventing forest fires, or that your efforts have been otherwise inadequate, or insufficiently zealous. Or, barring that- It doesn’t suggest that your individually adequate vigilance in preventing forest fires is simply dismissible as atypical, not typical; and thus, you can be discounted as a positive or accurate representation of your demographic or society- because that would run counter to the larger narrative a posited by ‘arson culture’- because individual vigilance & and adequate fire safety still does not -cannot- put you (or anyone else) outside of your broader collective demographic or culture, and are thus, culturally & collectively, to be condemned and reproached; not excused or excepted.          

    It doesn’t, in fact, even suggest that one has been previously vigilant OR careless; or that one even has a pre-existing inclination to one behavior, or the other, going forward: It doesn’t assume a bias to modulate its message to, based on generalized demographic or societal assumptions of behaviors before, or presumptions of behaviors across generalized societal or demographic lines going forward.       
      
    It doesn’t equate insufficient fire safety as simply & only the product of malevolent carelessness, which in turn it equates as the equivalent of arson, and thus representative of an overarching ‘arson culture’   

    It doesn’t equate telling a joke (crass, crude or reprehensible or counter-productive, or socially repugnant as it may or may not relatively be) about ‘fire’ as an absolute moral equivalent to endorsing a lax or reckless approach to fire safety or arson, which in turn is an equivalent to arson, which in turn denotes an overarching systemic ‘arson culture.’ It does not assume a strict vertical metric and equivalency between attitude & action. Nor does it presume an absolute equivalency & equivalent detriment of wholly types of dissimilar actions, which are fundamentally unequal.      

    While not presuming bad-will or malevolence, while not presuming a direct moral equivalency, neither does it suggest oppositely that if so then all is equally innocuous: It does not presume that there no detrimental attitudes & actions; it simply doesn’t suggest the equivalency- between word and action, between one action and another dissimilar action.     

    It doesn’t suggest that preventing forest fires is proportionately any more or less imperative (on a societal or individual scale) because of the profusion of numbers of forest fires. Conversely, it’s not suggesting that it is any less detrimental, imperative or incumbent to prevent then, even if they may be statistically less abundant.   

    It doesn’t say that because some firefighters & fire departments are (or may be) apathetic, ineffectual, uncaring,  insufficiently vigilant or content with current state of affairs -and that because this is an ongoing problem that must still be resolved- that all such institutions must be equally uncaring, apathetic, and ineffectual, in regards to all instances of fire. And that, in equal & systemic dimension.    

    It says “Only you can prevent forest fires” – but does NOT say that ‘All forest fires will end – thus, IF they don’t, or haven’t yet, then it’s all on you- directly, collectively’ – It doesn’t suggest that you use the relative prevalence or scarcity of forest fires in society as the overriding metric to gauge your own relative, appropriate, attenuated, personal vigilance, responsibility, and efficacy in preventing them. It doesn’t suggest that you should assume responsibility for all failures & inadequacies in this on a demographic or cultural scale, and merely discount your own personal vigilance, adequacy & efficacy in preventing forest fires. It doesn’t suggest or imply that yours is a false consciousness. 

    Conversely, it does NOT imply that if forest fires do become scare or anachronistic on a on a cultural or societal scale that that in any way alleviates, extricates or mitigates the severity of them, or our own continuing individual relative responsibilities in preventing forest fires.  
      
    It doesn’t try to encapsulate or reduce all to falling within a notion ‘arson culture’

    But even though the original message (“Only You can prevent forest fires”) DOESN’T say any of that; that it DOESN’T use that kind of absolutist & demagogic language; that is doesn’t subscribe or invest in those rigid relational values— just by virtue of that doesn’t mean that it’s advocating or enabling the opposite message. There is a broader coinciding altruistic goal at the core goal of both messages. The former is not saying that forest fires don’t exist; it’s not saying that they can’t or shouldn’t be prevented. It’s not denying or evading or saying that people don’t have responsibility or culpability to achieve the goal. It is certainly not suggesting or endorsing the abhorrent notion that the forest itself is in any way responsible for the fire or the arsonist or for those who are inappropriately reckless (in word & deed) with fire. It’s not blaming or shifting responsibility to the victims of those- It is simply not adopting an a binary, overarching attitude of ‘arson culture.’

    That said,
    In 2015 – 8,821,040 acres burned due to wildfires; and that number was only counting up to September.

    The illogic of waste; of suffering, of preventable wanton destruction.
    That’s what it’s about. But it’s also about the proportionate relativities & boundaries underlying that destruction; and judicious specificity in denoting the culpabilities, relationships and efficacies. 

    In short, empathize; and articulate that empathy with meaningful action- but do not absolutize one’s self or others. Do all the good you can, in all the places you can, all the times you, as much as you can, as long as you can. In the end, nobody can do more than their all- so do not lightly differ that judgment of ‘all’ to others; nor lightly expropriate it fromothers, unwarranted.          

  4. Yes, Tom.

    …and just a quick apology to all concerned for any part I played in it.

  5. Mostly_123 says:

    Not to add more division, contention or discord here- but maybe to clarify some of the fissures, without exacerbating them: I spoke recently (albeit briefly and somewhat conjecturally) with someone who’s opinion I respect greatly, and am thus highly inclined to weigh & consider it very earnestly. So, speaking in a very general or notional sense -and only for themselves- this person was of the mind that one can apologize in a collective way for something they didn’t do individually and/or didn’t condone or tacitly approve of individually. The idea that one can take or assume a share a proportion of collective responsibility for collective actions/past transgressions of one’s own aggregate group: And that is to be a highly personal and a subjective equation; not a societal edict or imperative to be externally invoked upon all, or leveraged or obligated by all unconditionally, without their assent. Moreover, it is very contingent on the solemn understanding that there are boundaries and boarders to this- that it is not without limits, it is notopen-ended; it is not unqualified or unconditional, nor of absolutist proportion, scope, or scale. Everyone wants validation and empathy; just as most everyone -in at least some capacity- wants to empathize and validate others. But that relationship -between they who wants empathy & validation, and those who wish to extend it and to do right by others & by society as a whole- that is not something that is open-ended and unconditional or inequitable; where only the former dictates the criteria and boundaries unconditionally.             

    To leverage or coerce the later -such as by way of absolutist moral ultimatum- is not healthy or productive for either party. Because that’s not accommodation, validation, or empathy any more- it’s just acquiescence. If empathy is solicited or extended in the expectation that it wholly entails or constitutes unconditional obligation -that its purpose is simply to accede to another unconditionally, that empathy is acquiescence, and that anything falling short of acquiescence is thus not empathic, or wholly insufficient as empathy or validation- then this in not a healthy, reciprocal or equitable state of affairs. Accepting that another person has (for reasons that seem good to them) another interpretation of society or causality (or a narrative of it) it is not the same as endorsing (or insisting) that that narrative is the one-and-only singular narrative of objective truth- and thus, it merits overriding or sublimating our own for the sake of it. It’s wrong to assume that any qualification or deviation from that is an unacceptable compromise of empathy, or an outright failure to extend it, or to extend it sufficiently or sincerely. It’s not. Everyone (and certainly, everyone’s ideology or religion) can’t always be validated the exact way they want, as fully as they want, from everyone that they want to be validated from. But empathy and respect cannot be calculated or calibrated on a scale of simply how acquiescent one is to another- that’s not balanced anymore and it’s ultimately not helpful to either party, it’s just another zero-sum equation. 

    Relative validation, endorsement, or repudiation of a narrative’s structure & the arrangement of its components is not the same as validation, endorsement or repudiation of the components themselves. To contend then that ‘rape culture’ as posited is not a singular collective phenomenon, necessitating singular collective reproach on demographic or monolithic scale, is NOT to deny, mitigate, excuse, enable, endorse, or tacitly approve of all or any of the odious objectivities encapsulated within its narrative- It is to contend the narrative’s presumptions of the relational values within the encapsulation itself.   
       
    One doesn’t get to say that all that fails to endorse or coincide with one’s narrative, or fails to endorse the narrative as a sound & immutable whole -collectively and unconditionally- thus then is by default oppositely endorsing or forwarding all that which is unquestionably evil that the narrative seeks to demolish. To say that a particular tool or mechanism is ill-suited, faulty, incomplete, or otherwise over-engineered or under-engineered to the task for which it was envisaged is NOT to disparage or denigrate the ultimate goal itself. That is, unless the goal itself becomes simply venerating and perpetuating the mechanism and not performing (or optimally performing) the original task which begged its inception.  

    Ideologies are tools; and very tenuous & imprecise ones at that, nothing more. They can be employed or discounted, both to good or ill effect, depending on the eye, skill, and timing of when they are (and are not) utilized. You are not your ideology (or religion). I am not my ideology (or religion). They may be representations of how we envision the world (or the template to rebuild or re-interpret the world how we envision it). They may be representations of how all the component parts in the world all integrate and interrelate; but they are still representations of relational values between objective & subjective experiences, ideas, and subjective & relative attribution of meaning to those all objectivities & subjectivities: An ideology or an ideological lens applied subjectively to a sum of objectivities does not, by that alone then, constitute or transmute them into a singular immutable objective truth, as exclusively posited by the ideology itself.          

    I find that ideologies tend to overlook, denigrate, or otherwise dismiss this and other relativities, in favor of the appeal to sectarianism and absolutism. I’ve never enchanted an ideology (or an ideologue, or religious fundamentalist) with a health dose of skepticism, ambivalence or ambiguity. Ideologies are less adaptive or elastic than they are reactionary, conservative and self-preservative. Generally speaking- ideologies & overarching social theories don’t do ‘proportion’ or ‘nuance’ or ‘relativity’ or ‘subjectivity’ or boundaries very pwell: By their design, which often hinges on conceptualizing things in a collective way, on a collective scale, ideologies typically are, by nature, conjectures or conceptions wrought in  absolutist proportions & dimensions. Ideologies don’t tend to think in potentialities; they talk in ‘inevitabilities.’

    Convinced of their own objectivity & integrity, and reassured by their own strict interpretations of causality they often use their own metrics, which themselves are partial and subjective; not impartial or objective, nor absolute. As such, they see their validity & utility as something that is uniformly (not just relatively or situationally) applicable, and hence, universal equitably. Because of this, I believe, such ideologies & social theories demand a fealty or a strict rhetorical fidelity that often makes them rigid and self-defeating. They cannot accommodate nuance, relativity, subjectivity, divergence or conditional irrelevance- because ideologies are not designed to accommodate or otherwise account for these; they are designed to rationalize that that which does NOT fit into their absolutist parameters is unreal or irrelevant.

    By nature & habit, ideologies are often ‘all-or-nothing’ modes of conceptions. As such, an ideology’s proponents (as well as many of it detractors) often proceed from a stance that any challenge or attack on any aspect of it is an attack or threat to the integrity of it (or its objectives) as a collective whole. And, conversely, that any validation of any component part encompassed by it is thus collective validation, and sufficient certification of the integrity of the collective whole. It’s not. Remember- ideologies and social theories don’t often use restrictive or otherwise conditional language or terms (which, as said, is part of their inherent nature and why they are, invariably, so broadly & deeply divisive). Ideologies (and/or their most strident ideologues) do not typically mean for their tenants to be applied relatively or partially or subjectively or constrictively. It’s less about divergent objectives, values, and priorities- for they coincide, rather than conflict or contradict. It is more about how we differ in how we ascribe motives & meanings- to ways we do or do not conceptualize those things which led us to our coinciding objectives, values and priorities. …IMHO…

  6. Just a word to Anthony here.

    Was bullied also. I ended that with a wiffle ball bat one day when I’d had enough (one of the hard yellow one’s). Made me stronger, but far too great a challenge for a young boy to meet. We were on our own back then, and I’d had it with such things. I suddenly grew to 6’1, and was studying karate. I went the other way. Spent alot of time interjecting my “opinion” when I saw bullying from that point on, and just as an fyi, those stories of being bullied raise my temp far more then anything else in this discussion, and as much as any major event in my life. That is how much it effects us..

    You are a good guy, Anthony. I could tell that right off. Wish there was a guy like me at your school. Things may have been a bit different for you.

    • BTW there’s no D in Arianna.

  7. …and yes, Adrianna. I know that you did not write the article. It was a male. I took him to task, with equal vigor, well, more actually, in my third post. The first was Dylan, then you, then the author: Two out of three being male. Right? They did not respond, you did, the conversation continued with you.

  8. “God forbid you unleash scary man on the guy right? Poor thing probably didn’t have a dad.”

    Nope. Would not be pretty. I do not address men like that with the same courtesy I do others. In fact, I have far less patience with the men then I do the women. If we were having this discussion as two males I’d have already told you to STFU and go stroke yourself to your paper girlfriend. With women, more willing to try to understand their unique issues.

    Not something one does when new to a site either. The people here are professionals and I’m trying to build a rapport and some trust so that when I do speak on men’s issues I’m heard. I chose rather to simply dismiss him and his comments (to you) so that we could continue on. They were not worth a reply, and I’m not a jedi, I can’t read your thoughts or how that would effect you. It was a fly-by, and I gave it due attention. I would almost send you links to relationship sites that I participate in where 90% of my time is spent supporting women, and often taking men to task, but I’m not going to defend myself to you or anyone.

    The statement about him not having a father was an insult to him, not pity. It was to imply that no adult would teach such stupidity to a child, but rather, based on my experience, is something passed on from the guy in the next bathroom stall, passed to him by the further down…which is the problem with that type of nonsense. That was the, Lord or the Flies, comment.

    …and again, I have no idea about this, “talking down to the girl” thing, but I can assure you that I did have you figured wrong (rare for me), and if I had known that this anger lay just below the surface I would have surely walked on egg-shells, but again, I’m not a Jedi.

    “You have things to teach me and I have things to teach you.”

    Yep, and I’ve learned a great deal from the women here, from you, and said so, to you. Not sure where any of that came from, but again, I’m not that guy and though I apologized once for any misunderstanding, I’ll do so again. I’m sorry if you got that impression from what I said, but it is not at all my intent. If that’s not correct either, you let me know how you would like me to apologize and I’ll eat some more crow for ya.
    Happy to do so, but what I will do no further is to defend my integrity…I’ve seen everything that you’ve mention in that reply and the men you’ve encountered. Again, there are men that may not get it, but again, I’m not that guy.

    Now I think we are done. We’ve certainly disrupted this thread enough, and I really cannot go on further as I’ve reached the extent of my patience. Hands will be firmly on the wheel…and I’ll leave that to you to change. Talk about the male and female dynamic? I’m giving the power over to you. Its all yours. You make that call when you learn a bit more about me, or not at all…that and an apology for calling me childish.

    Fair enough? Good. Last word is yours if you so chose. I’ll do the courtesy of reading it, but will not respond in this thread any longer either. It’s getting too weird.

  9. “You are childish because you are talking at me, not with me. You have not acknowledged a single one of my points as potentially valid, but rather you have granted me the kindness of assuming that I am probably a good girl who just needs to learn from the much wiser men here. ”

    Once again quoting for lack of the ability to reply directly.

    @Adrianna,

    I’ll try once more just to answered these questions.

    You have the wrong guy. All of my post to you were to you, and they were respectful even in disagreement. The one that you are referring to was the result of my stating that I agreed with you, and one of the men challenging that.

    At that point I was speaking to him, considering the opinions that were being raised, and was speaking favorably about you to him, not patronizing you. Of course I would not be addressing you in that post, but no matter how you took that, I was simply stating that you were not the devil.

    Growing is something we all do in these types of discussions, if we don’t flip our wigs, and I stated that about all of us, not just you. Read back. Nothing I’ve said to you in regard to your adherence to that particular feminist ideology would not be said to a male, and I’m about to in another thread on the subject of masculinity because he is also hearing only one side, and as I said, the only side we are all hearing…and it will be said in the exact same way.

    You’ve asked if I’ve read you. Yes, all of it just about. Visited your website too because I liked what you had to say. Have you read me? Have you read my replies in those essays of yours? Have you read my support for other women on this site, or where I have taken the guys to task? Have you read them all here? Did you read where I said, to the guys, that I agree with you?

    Stop it. You don’t have to defend yourself to me or anyone else. I was not demeaning you, or patting you on the head while ignoring the issues of women. I disagree with a particular ideology that you believe in and that is it…and yes, I think you, men, and everyone that has acquiesced that are being duped…because its not true.

    I grew up in a divorced home with three beautiful sisters, and a mother. I’ve been married twice and raised a daughter. I had 16 aunts, over 20 female cousins all in a tight knit community. I spend half my time in the principles office for fighting on my sisters behalf, and the other half beating bullies such as those that Anthony mentioned. My first wife was super model level attractive, and she had the ability to cause men to lose the filter between their mouths and their ass brains. I know full well what it is like to be a woman, what they go through, what they think, how they feel.

    I don’t know what conflict occurred here with you or anyone else, but I’m not that guy.

  10. “@ D.J.

    Sorry to hear that. I understand what you mean about being a victim. I’ve had sex with women where I hadn’t consented. I’ve never been able to use the R word except for a short time when talking about an instance when I was 15 and it’s because I had never viewed it as such until a few years ago. Maybe because it had statutory in front of it, it made it less real. I’m 48. It’s a shame that men have so little support in society that it takes 30 years to even recognize it.”

    I’m quoting here, John, because I can’t seem to reply directly.

    It is a conversation that needs to be had. The different dynamic alone fascinates me, and I know exactly where you are coming from, even with few words. Be interesting to hear the stories of other men that have experienced such, the different ways it manifests itself.

    Be a learning experience for sure, answer a bunch of questions also.

    • John Anderson says:

      @ D. J.

      A conversation for another day, but I’m quitting the thread. It’s getting much too heated and I like the people here. I think though that we’ll eventually reach an understanding. I did with another editor here. We agreed to disagree on the abuse data. She didn’t think we had good data. When I mentioned that could be an excuse for inaction, two things happened that surprised me. She agreed and changed her position to we don’t have good data, but that shouldn’t stop us from addressing the issue while we acquire better data.

      That wasn’t the only thing I found impressive. In another conversation, I had mentioned that men are the majority of rapists based on the data we had even though it’s unclear based on the data whether they are the majority of victims. She said she wouldn’t bet her life on men being the majority of perpetrators. Even though I think the data is pretty clear there even if just a small majority, she was true to her position. If the data isn’t good then how would you know. Since our conversations, I don’t remember her making any .definitive comparisons. I was truly impressed.

      You can reach people. Today is not the day and I sense that I’m hurting people I like. Time to call it a night.

  11. “Nope, DJ, you’re right.
    A rape culture is one in which all of you men sit here proudly attacking me, slapping virtual high-fives, and NOT ONE OF YOU has told that guy he is out of line.
    Should we ask him about his father? Maybe for his definition of rape culture?
    Or should you guys just keep blaming the feminists and attacking me?”

    ———-

    Ok, so that is what put the burr under your saddle> I probably should have read up, but that insult sort of threw me.

    Chances are that he did not have a father.

    My following comment may have been awaiting moderation (1:25). As I had stated, Mostly beat me to it, so I deferred to his reprove of that particular poster-which said everything that I would have.

    I stopped back because it also pissed me off a bit, but I’m new here so I’d rather not let scary man out during what I thought was a civil discussion. My first post was a reprove of him, not you, and certainly not to let it slide. I was showing respect for you by addressing the behavior for what it is, to you, and avoiding the illusion that i was just grand standing (I’m walking on egg-shells to over here). That was wrong in hind site, I should have just addressed it the first time, and hard.

    Yes, I do feel you, and I know what it is to feel put upon or ganged up on. I was a father’s rights advocate when we were told that we had no right to our children, that they belong with the mother. Though they are just about extinct now, I’ve had flocks of that type of feminist descend upon me in the past.

    It’s happening in the reverse now. It’s the guys lashing out. Whether it was done here or not, is not something that I’ll debate, but I know that I’ll not be partaking in any of it, or any of this drama. Whether you believe it or not, I was trying to defuse some of that feeling, defend you a bit, and I am almost tempted to suggest a method of defusing when you feel that is happening, but, well, I’m thinking that I pissed you off enough and it will only come across as perceived patronizing.

    Anyway, as I said, I’ll steer clear. No harm, no foul.

  12. When I was in my partying years, late teens to mid-20’s, I was that awkward guy who still had rarely been kissed, much less had a girlfriend. I had never made love to anyone, and it seemed I couldn’t get a date to save my life.

    Still, whenever I was out and about with my friends, should I (or we) see a girl that had drunk herself into oblivion (an occurance that wasn’t all that uncommon), my immediate action was always to put her in a cab to get her home, or sometimes even to a hospital. The possibility to sneak off and try to get inside her pants was never a possibility that even occured to me.

    Yet, what does empathy has to do with it? Because NO ONE IS INNOCENT! Right?

  13. Was actually, Mostly that made that particular comment, Anthony (credit where due). I know what you mean though. May as well have been me. I’ve heard it said many times. I sometimes wonder if there is a little alien in my head pulling strings and pushing levers because sometimes it surprised me too…and sometimes I look back and wonder what the hell I was talking about. LOL

    It is also why I’m fond of reading, Mostly from the get-go (well, I like reading all of you also). Far greater vocabulary then I, does challenge my intellect, but “mostly” because of how they utilize that vocabulary so colorfully as well as effectively.

    Thank you for the compliment though, guy. My hope is that my words do end up meaning something when I put them out there. I try anyway!

    • Mostly_123 says:

      Thank-you very much for the compliment- I do very much appreciate hearing your perspectives & experiences, and everyone else’s too (even when or if I disagree -or intensely disagree- with the ideas, ideals, tones, styles, or conclusions). It always takes everyone time to put those ideas into written words; and effort to define, refine & share those insights. So, even if I don’t end up agreeing with you, or you agreeing with me, or everybody else with everybody else, by doing this we’re still probably better off, by defining and refining our parameters and our logic. There was a story on the news recently, on how Supreme Court Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Antonin Scalia had formed a seemingly unlikely friendship over the years, even though, ideologically, they were poles apart. Even though this ideological rift did not change over the years, Justice Guinsburg noted that they both became better at arguing, articulating, & improving their own positions, over the course of contesting them with each other- Mutual respect and intellectual rigor over an ideological divide can motivate and serve as foundation for mutual improvement, as surely as spite & visceral wrath can- as I am frequently wont to remind myself. Not everything’s a fight (like you said, ‘you can’t *win* the internet’ – not everyone is going to agree on everything all the time) and not everyone’s an opponent. But tough (not just LOUD, or sanctimonious, or contentious- but tough earnest) arguments, and defending or confronting positions, this often compels us to become more insightful and better communicators; just as proper exercise can strengthen the body. I’ve quoted this from Fred Rogers before, but I wanted to remind myself of it again- he once said: “The values we care about the deepest, and the movements within society that support those values, command our love. When those things that we care about so deeply become endangered, we become enraged. And what a healthy thing that is! Without it, we would never stand up and speak out for what we believe.” Not just that, but it also helps us better understand what we do believe and how & why we believe it.

      (Aside from the ‘reply’ button function on the site being a little glitchy) I don’t reply as often as I post, (mostly) because it alternatively feels like I’m either being too partial, or immodest, or I’ve usually said too much already, or I’m afraid it just looks like I’m only trying to ingratiate myself. If I myself talk a lot, or talk colorfully it’s because the GMP is a forum that (I believe) let’s people talk through their own logic & convictions -inquisitively, intuitively, and in an aspirational way- and actually explain if, where, & how their position diverges with someone else’s. People on the GMP, I find (even when we’re poles apart) are usually still here to articulate a point, rather than just score a point- in 140 quick characters, or post a sarcastic meme, or troll. So, On the GMP I can open up and be a bit more verbose and idealistic. Thanks again.

  14. @Allianna

    I stopped back to this thread to try to elaborate a bit better with my assertion regarding the recent comment made here, because my goal is not to win the internet, but to create better understanding and enhance the discussion. I did not feel that I accomplished that very well..

    However, I’ve been “upstaged”, by Mostly. I’m assuming male, but it really does not matter as I cannot conjure any better example of how either older, or more astute men will and do take other men to task, while adding proper education.

    I was raised around older (wiser) men, and I’ve seen it hundreds of times in my life. I have also, in turn, taken my own son’s to task in such instances. Taken my daughter to task also, but in a different way and for different reasons, but all with the intent to raise better citizens…or humans.

    Men, do not support such ideas or ideals. Pop culture does, the media tends to. They all accost us, or I should say, speak for us, or paint us, but that is only because our voice has been absent from the discussion. I read it all, but sometimes I find myself scratching my head as much of what is discussed is purely alien to me, a facade of, or faulty interpretation of men and masculinity.

    As time moves on, as we all come to the table, as discussion such as this filter upstream to those more qualified (then myself anyway), and better able to articulate, a great many beliefs and interpretations will be altered, even to the point of a complete paradigm shift…just as we’ve done previously with every issue, every group from women to gays and beyond.

    My opinion, my hope anyway.

  15.  “Emelio Lizardo says: “We’re a sexually reproductive species, yes is part of the equation.

    It’s our job to fuck women. It’s their job to resist just enough to filter out the weak.

    It’s our job to do all we can to get to yes.”

    There’s only a lot wrong with that.
     
    Our ‘job’, as human beings, in a civil & civilized society, is to seek mutual accommodation and consensus- to create and to build together, out of mutual trust, respect, interest & joy; be it person to person, or in aggregate groups. Contrary to popular belief, on a collective long-term historic scale, human beings have worked fairly well together (in very relative terms that is- we’ve actually survived living with ourselves and the lesser parts of our ‘nature’ for this long, and achieved -on a cosmological & existential scale- what meager accomplishments that we have). That said, being at the end of the road and the top of the heap, we have self-awareness to intuit that we indeed have no gilded mandate from the universe to perpetuate ourselves: The universe is big and cold and harsh, and in the end, it doesn’t care. But we do what we do out of mutual accommodation because it ultimately brings mutual us joy and prosperity, through the expression and extension of that love & empathy which underlies it; and the admitted philosophical & existential vanity we indulge in- as creators or co-creators of life and love. But make no mistake, the universe, and our little tiny world in it, it all got along fine before us. And it will continue on, unmoved, long after the last fossilized remnants of our DNA have turned to dust particles. 

    To quote the perspective of Pope John XXIII, our ‘job’ here (if we are so bold as to presume that we even have one) is that: “We are here on earth not to guard a museum, but to cultivate a garden flourishing with life and promised to a glorious future.” That’s a lofty way of thinking about humanity’s place in the scheme of things, and in relation to each other. So, as is apparent, it has very little to do with getting others to begrudgingly take the ride with us down the path of least resistance to Fucksville. Not to be unduly judgmental, but does it not occur to you even in passing how base and disrespectful your comment there could be taken?          

    “Filter out the weak?” as in, ‘The weak will perish’? Something like that? I think you’ve mistaken or overlooked the most indomitable and redeeming qualities of humanity- that being, our capacity (when employed) for logic, reason, empathy, kindness, altruism, and accommodation: Typically, when given a choice, we’re inclined to help each other, rather than harm. On a cosmic or evolutionary scale, we look out for each other more, and in more ways & with more means than the other species- particularly those can’t or won’t look out for themselves. Nature doesn’t nurture- human beings do; in defiance of the rules nature.        

    So, in short -unless I’ve somehow fundamentally misunderstood you as articulated your position there, or unless this is just somebody’s twisted idea of sock puppetry or trolling- to Hell with that.

  16. “Let me make a suggestion that might be both insightful and helpful. Don’t assume that every man in this discussion hasn’t been a victim of non-consensual sex. ”

    Ah yeah, John. The ole male rape thing. Happy days, good times.

    ah fack…Here we go. I really hate bringing this up because it makes me feel like a victim, or in need of sympathy, or like I have a an emotional dog in this fight. it does not, I do not, and talking about it is like a slice of bologna in my shoes…but I was raped by a woman when I was a kid.

    Different conversation for a different day, but I’ve spoken of three friends that grew up together. All four of us were “raped” as boys, buy older women. Mine was 28, I had just turned 15. She was a relative of one of my friends (the ole “friend of the family” trick). She got to two of us. The other was 14.

    Perhaps that is what draws me to sociology and psychology, the male and female dynamic. Not sure on that, but I’m a thinker, so I do look upon that as educational now. I’ve postulated that first, statutory rape of boys by women is far more prevalent that we care to admit, and has created some of the unexplained issues we see with men. That leads to the second, which is the way rape effects boys as opposed to girls (just as severe, but very different).

    It is not the same. Not at all. I know this because I know how it effected me and the (more then a few) other boys. We had a teacher in middle school that routinely picked a young male and went with it (this was at age 12 to 14). We all knew (us kids), but no one ever spoke about it beyond that. These were the most masculine, the top athletes…none of which went on to fulfill their destiny, but just existed in a perpetual state of boyhood as if their growth as humans ended with that event. She was a rapist exposed, unchecked, to a stable of candidates. We saw it in high-school also.

    Took me a long time to get my head on straight, and with zero help, empathy, or even a modicum of understanding as to what happened to me, or more so, how it effected me. No one knows except those four boys…well, and you barstards!.

    Who I am, how I am, my mental aptitude and strength, even being a bit of an introvert all helped me get a handle on it, analyze it, correct the effect, but that was years later, when my early youth was already gone. Most guys do not have those gifts, and very well may be suffering a lifetime of that “skewing” because even today, we have not clue one as to how differently such events effect young men. It is deceptive, and it is insidious.

    Like a great many things from “menopause”, to “male depression”, and on down the line, we still see all of this through the eyes of women rather then men…which is why I believe that we guys are here, to change that perception and create a whole new understanding. It is why I believe this site exists also. I know that its why I’m here…well, that first, then revolution! LOL

    • John Anderson says:

      @ D.J.

      Sorry to hear that. I understand what you mean about being a victim. I’ve had sex with women where I hadn’t consented. I’ve never been able to use the R word except for a short time when talking about an instance when I was 15 and it’s because I had never viewed it as such until a few years ago. Maybe because it had statutory in front of it, it made it less real. I’m 48. It’s a shame that men have so little support in society that it takes 30 years to even recognize it.

  17. Deep cleansing breaths people. Hi temp issue, but lets all try our best to keep the frustration, on both sides, at room temperature.

    Usually agree with you, John, but in this case we part ways just a bit.

    My agreement with Arianna is in her assertions about the need to bring awareness to the issue of rape, to get men involved in the discussion, and to extend that out to both men and women (which she did state), but as I said, not the means, or the assertion of the extent of rape culture. In that, we also part ways.

    That was not her that blamed men, but the assertion of a woman that she linked in support of her method. She has stated her concern for men a number of times. I called her on that one point, but not to disagree with her contention, but to demonstrate how the gender feminist type will turn that, and always do turn it to, “men against women”.

    I personally believe that her heart is in the right place, just that she, like many women, have been only exposed to the gender feminist viewpoint on this matter. She’s not the enemy. She’s also a smart woman, and with these types of discussion will grow, as I do, as you do, as any intelligent person will when they have all the information. Some of the viewpoints of the women, including hers, have allowed me to expand my view, and I hope that my blathering helps them to expand theirs.

    As a side note, when I enter these discussions I will often times either be praised by both sides, or descended upon by both sides. I’m not sure if that’s because I’m trying to maintain balance or I’m just talking out my arse! Hopefully the feedback will keep my ass participation to a minimum…

  18. Hi John,

    I think that my problem is that I understand power all too well.

    From my standpoint, in the Marine situation, her power is not derived from physical strength, but societal power granted to a woman over a man in exactly the way that you demonstrated: He feared that he would be charged with rape.

    That power transcends physical power, and here is the kicker. In DV cases, Duluth has actually twisted physical power against men. It allows officers to deterring based on probability rather then actual events, witnesses, injury, confession. With that a raped or beaten man has the greatest change (and often is) to be arrested on top of the abuse. We are, in fact, doing to men exactly what those feminist claim is being done to women.

    They have determined a means by which to not only negate physical power, but as you demonstrated, utilize it against the victim (in this case male).

    I was made aware of this after my ex-wife pulled a restraining order against me. No proof, not violence, no violation of the order on my part. When they attempted to use it against me during the hearings, the judge ask if there was any violence, and violation of the order. She testified that I’d never threatened or harmed her. Judge said: There were over 40 thousand of them issues last year and most of them held no merit…but he still kept the “order of protection” in force, which allowed her to rape my entire life. I was pretty upset. My lawyer told me I was lucky, that it could have been worse, a lot worse, that the judge gave me a break as that is not how it usually goes.

    That is all an example of the power granted women, the power that negates physical strength, the power that legal grants the authority to abuse men. It is absolute, still to this day, and, well, absolute power…

    Also, in my “come to jesus speach to girls and boy, that marine case is exactly what I would bring to the tabe for girls, that under the new definition, the new awareness, that power will be gone, and they can, just as easily be charged with rape as a man. What you describe is exactly the dark side of this coin. It demonstrates also that many women not only do not understand the concept of female on male rape, but that it cannot happen, thus allowing them to rape at their discretion. That does not mean that women are out in force raping men, but that society tacitly approves of such, or tolerates such.

    When we start seeing rape convictions against women in numbers that fall in line with the number of events that scientific research suggests, humanity will be progressing toward that goal of safety, responsibility, equality for all. Until that time, these type of discussions will reach 116 posts.

    Hope that explains it a bit better.

  19. Emelio Lizardo says:

    We\re a sexually reproductive species, yes is part of the equation.

    It’s our job to fuck women. It’s their job to resist just enough to filter out the weak.

    It’s our job to do all we can to get to yes.

    • “It’s our job to fuck women. It’s their job to resist just enough to filter out the weak.”

      That’s a f*%$#d way of putting it. It’s not women’s job to resist men. It’s about intelligent beings deciding who to have sex with willingly, and deciding who to become pregnant with. It’s also stupid to assume one gender does the asking, and the other the rejecting. Wtf is wrong with you?

    • “It’s our job to do all we can to get to yes.”

      The way you wrote it sounds awful like encouraging someone to harass and keep asking until they get a yes from someone.

      It’s our job to try make ourselves attractive enough, to ask someone out and respect their no. That goes for men and women.

    • John Anderson says:

      @ Emelio Lizardo

      You care to and some context to that comment because as it stands it’s pretty damn disturbing.

    • @ Emelio Lizardo,

      Your comment is sheer fucking bullshit…I cannot believe you even wrote this crap.

      But, as the famous author Oscar Wilde once wrote, “give a man a mask and you will hear the truth…” When you are able to hide behind the Internet, you can say this sort of stuff.

      In my opinion, this mentality is what we are trying to move beyond. It is primitive and backwards as hell.

  20. John Anderson says:

    When it comes to doing things better, I would also suggest starting for the position that men in general care for women in general.

    For example I had a conversation with a male “feminist”. He was complaining about arguments men use. It went something like this.

    Father: I know my daughter. If she had been raped, I would definitely know.

    Feminist: You don’t know your daughter. You can’t know how it feels to be a woman.

    My suggestion was to approach him like this. I have no doubt you know your daughter well. I have no doubt you love your daughter and she loves you. What would you do if you found out your daughter was raped? Would you hunt the guy down? Do you not think your daughter knows this? She knows you’d give your life to protect her. She wants to protect you too. She wants you in her life not in prison.

    It was a female rape survivor who mentioned that to me. The last line is a quote and still sticks in my head because I had never considered it and I have been so guilty of this. When I hear about a woman I care about having been hurt, ny first instinct is to hurt that person right back and this is probably why my female friends and family don’t tell me.

  21. John Anderson says:

    @ Arianna Jeret

    Let me make a suggestion that might be both insightful and helpful. Don’t assume that every man in this discussion hasn’t been a victim of non-consensual sex.

  22. @John.

    Sorry, can’t seem to post direct replies.

    Yes, I can see the 3% thing, and understand what you mean. Good catch.

  23. Well, its not exactly how I’d like the conversation to go, but it’s a good conversations non-the-less.

    I want to be clear here that I am on Arianna’s side and my only disagreement is the means by which we get there, not the goal.

    With that, my thoughts on how to proceed.

    1 Learn about true male sexuality. I’m not talking about the pop-cultural outliers that get the press (guys wearing lingerie, being metrosexuals, or anything else). I’m talking the rest of us.

    2. Stop associating male sexuality with violence against women. It is not, not at all.

    3. Understand that if given the same power, women would (and have shown a great many examples of such), do so also

    4. Stop listening to gender feminist and start listening to equity feminist (and learn the difference).

    5. Understand that gender feminism is not women’s friend. They do not care about women beyond using them as shield to avoided critique. They support the control women have over the family. They support the single parent female head of household, yet we know that upwards of 90% of our most violent criminals, our rapists are the product of the single parent female head of household. They are doing it wrong, all wrong.

    6. Go gender neutral. Help men and we help women. “Help me to help you” We do this by making this gender neutral, ending all the conflict so that the issue is seen clearly. Men are against rape, they want to be there, but we keep pushing them away.

    7. Wipe the VAWA off the face of the earth and replace with the, Domestic Violence act. Ratify it in completely gender neutral terms, split funding down the middle in the same zero sum game we used for such issues as title IX for women in sports.

    8. Get dads back as full parents so that we can begin to teach once again rather then let (or leave that to) our women. Too much a burden, too great a failure. A complete redesign of the family court system to be the same. Mandate joint legal and physical custody as a norm, then extend out from there.

    9. Go into our colleges and defuse what has become a hostile environment for our boys. Stop allowing those few angry women to both continue the trend as well as bully the men that speak out against such. Open that can of worms right up.

    10. Instituted the same affirmative action we granted to our girls, to our boys in order to balance the 70- 30 split in enrollment that we are about to face….and above all, stop this stupid profiling of our young men. They are not the problem.

    There are more, but that’s the tip of the iceberg. That is the long and winding road that we have to take in order to come together on this, and together is the only way we will ever solve it. Men are not the enemy, they are the Calvary waiting just over the horizon. Where is the carrot? Where is the motivation? Shame? Guilt, accusation will no longer work to guilt men into caring. We cannot legislate male behavior. That is a band-aide that will come off in the rain, and we certainly are raining down upon our men. Can’t do it, but we can motivate them. Can’t shame em, but we can pride em.

    Eliminate all and any argument among men. Give them nothing to contest here as we work together to put their issues on the board right next to this, and prove our metal. I mean, the women here, the women actually caring enough to both create this site and participate in a positive way have done more for women’s rights then 50 years of angry, hateful feminist screeching “rapist, abuser, evil patriarchal monster under the bridge”, in our ears.

    We help men, we help women. We help women, we help men. The “showdown at gender pass” (as noted by the great Asa Barber), does not have to be a showdown at all, but peace talks.

    As Rosalind Miles said almost 40 years ago when she first warned us: Shall we begin?

    As Forrest Gump once said: “And that’s all I have to say about that”.

    • John Anderson says:

      @ D.J.

      “3. Understand that if given the same power, women would (and have shown a great many examples of such), do so also ”

      You’re not fully comprehending the nature of power. There is a famous male survivor who helped start the discussion on male victims. I don’t name rape victims so I’ll leave his initials (J.L.). He was a marine who went out drinking with friends and spent the night with a woman. It wasn’t sexual. They were both too drunk to go home and they needed a place to crash. I think they split a hotel room.

      Anyway he’s passed out drunk and wakes up to her riding his penis. He passes out again. Later that night he awakens to her raping him again. This time he’s fairly lucid as the alcohol had started wearing off. He questions her, but she tells him to relax and pushes him back down. He doesn’t resist because he’s afraid that if he does, she’ll charge him with rape. Who’s going to believe that she raped a marine. The power to accuse and have it believed and prosecuted is power. Proxy violence is real violence.

    • John Anderson says:

      @ D. J.

      “I want to be clear here that I am on Arianna’s side and my only disagreement is the means by which we get there, not the goal.”

      Ummm, she asserted rape culture is something men do to women. She basically from what I saw argued that male victimization is insignificant at least when compared to female victimization if not in absolute numbers and that women basically can’t, don’t, or won’t rape at all.

      I want to believe that I’ve misinterpreted what she was trying to get at. I’m going under the assumption that it was a bad reaction to the mention of female perpetration. Maybe she felt attacked even though no one said all women and wanted to try and mitigate it. Maybe it’s that damn scoreboard mentality that seems to creep up on and again as if men and women were two different teams in a game of victim hood. Anyway, it says something that I’m asking for clarification rather than attacking.

      If she clarified where she stood, I could tell you if I agree.

      • John, I don’t think she was trying to minimize or dismiss male victimization. The stuff she has quoted hasn’t included the male side much but that’s because the source material doesn’t talk about male victimization much.

        I think there is a huge amount of miscommunication going on in this article.

  24. Richard Johnson says:

    “We have absolutely no right, as men, to ‘convince’ women to do anything.”

    Bullshit. Everyone has the right to try to convince anyone else of anything. It’s called freedom of speech.

    “The fact that there IS a question in some of your minds, or the thought that maybe if you just point out why she’s wrong about her impression of you, or that she just misunderstood, or that she’ll be missing out on something awesome if she doesn’t give you a chance–that fact? That’s absolutely appalling.”

    No, what’s appalling is that so many people make snap judgements about other people based on little to no information, or based on a misinterpretation of what they said that anyone with a second-grade understanding of English should have been able to interpret correctly. There’s nothing appalling about correcting misconceptions or encouraging other people to have an open mind.

    “Rape Culture IS our culture.”

    This article was written by either a full retard or someone who lives in the Middle East.

    “Because the same thing that makes a man feel it’s okay to violate bodily makes him feel it’s okay to suggest that the woman who just said ‘No, thank you’ to him should give him a chance ‘cuz he’s really rather sweet”

    Did this author just compare de facto rape to suggesting that a woman get to know a guy before turning him down? Yeah, this dude is full retard. I’m not going to respond to the rest.

  25. Richard Johnson says:

    “We have absolutely no right, as men, to ‘convince’ women to do anything.”

    BS. Everyone has the right to try to convince anyone else of anything. It’s called freedom of speech.

    • Richard Johnson says:

      Ugh. This website is glitchy as hell. The above post can be deleted if the one below it gets approved by the mods.

    • @Richard Johnson

      ““We have absolutely no right, as men, to ‘convince’ women to do anything.”

      BS. Everyone has the right to try to convince anyone else of anything. It’s called freedom of speech.”

      He meant coerce, not convince. Basically we don’t have a right to ignore someones desire to be left alone and try force our view on them. We can try convince them, but they can say no, go away and that is that. There are comments above that explain it better.

  26. Richard Johnson says:

    “We have absolutely no right, as men, to ‘convince’ women to do anything.”

    Bullcrap. Everyone has the right to try to convince anyone else of anything. It’s called freedom of speech.

    “The fact that there IS a question in some of your minds, or the thought that maybe if you just point out why she’s wrong about her impression of you, or that she just misunderstood, or that she’ll be missing out on something awesome if she doesn’t give you a chance–that fact? That’s absolutely appalling.”

    No, what’s appalling is that so many people make snap judgments about other people based on little to no information, or based on a misinterpretation of what they said that anyone with a second-grade understanding of English should have been able to interpret correctly. There’s nothing appalling about correcting misconceptions or encouraging other people to have an open mind.

    “Rape Culture IS our culture.”

    This article was written by either a full r-tard or someone who lives in the Middle East.

    “Because the same thing that makes a man feel it’s okay to violate bodily makes him feel it’s okay to suggest that the woman who just said ‘No, thank you’ to him should give him a chance ‘cuz he’s really rather sweet”

    Did this author just compare de facto rape to suggesting that a woman get to know a guy before turning him down? Yeah, this dude is full r-tard. I’m not going to respond to the rest.

  27. John Anderson says:

    Look at the campus climate survey. Why is there a section on prevalence of sexual assault and a section of prevalence of female sexual assault, but not a section on male sexual assault victims?

    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ccsvsftr.pdf

    You have the narrative of female as victim male as perpetrator advanced by both the largest social movement of time’s time in partnership with the government and mainstream media (the 4rth estate). You have these same forces actively hiding female perpetration with the best male victims can hope for being that their concerns are addressed even if not acknowledged and we know this doesn’t seem to happen. How in the world is this not considered rape culture or at least a part of it.

  28. John Anderson says:

    @ Arianna Jeret

    Before I go too far afield, I’m having difficulty understanding just what you’re arguing. I can’t square what it feels that you’re arguing with the individual I believe you are. It seems that you’re arguing by both uncritically looking at sexual assault statistics and by offering a highly gendered definition of rape culture that excuses every instance of female perpetrated sexual violence, that women do not rape men or at least in any way meaningful enough to address as if the belief that boys (and men) raped by women are lucky is a belief held by individual people instead of something societal. This doesn’t seem like something I would have ever expected you to advocate. I’m hoping that you’d clarify.

    • John Anderson says:

      Woman puts a sedative in a man’s drink. When he’s passed out, she removes his clothes, puts his penis into her vagina, and has sex with him. Are you really arguing that this isn’t rape because you’re using a definition that doesn’t recognize this. The campus climate survey uses the same definition (penetration). Here are the questions they ask.

      Sexual contact includes:
      •touching of a sexual nature (kissing, touching of private parts, grabbing, fondling, rubbing up
      against you in a sexual way, even if it is over your clothes)
      •oral sex (someone’s mouth or tongue making contact with your genitals or your mouth or
      tongue making contact with someone else’s genitals)
      •anal sex (someoneputting their penis in your anus)
      •sexual intercourse (someone’s penis being put in [IFD3=MALE, FILL “someone’s”, ELSE FILL your
      ”vagina)
      •sexual penetration with a finger or object (someone putting their finger or an object like a bottle
      or a candle in your [IF D3 NE MALE, FILL: “vagina or”]anus

      The one thing that doesn’t count anywhere is someone putting your penis into their vagina (or anus) so in a survey ostensibly trying to determine how common rape is on college campuses the ONE thing we don’t do is ask MEN if they were ever raped by WOMEN.

      Rape culture is something men do yo women? My a**, but I wonder where do you get that idea? Maybe from the culture.

      • “Woman puts a sedative in a man’s drink.”

        One of my issues is exactly this, John…which extends out to “male rape awareness classes”.

        Again, is the goal here to blame men or resolve the issue?

        One way is to, rather then herd just our boys into rape awareness classes, herd the whole dame bunch of our kids in (if this is where we want to educate).

        Insure that guys know the risks, but we make sure that they absolutely know that they have responsibility too. We absolutely make them aware that, under the current definition, they are an risk of being the rapist just as they are the victim.

        Use example that they can relate to. Story telling works. Tell them a hypothetical story of a party at a guys house; seduction with a blacked out guy that she thought was into it. Tell them about what may happen when his girl comes over to help him clean up and finds the two of them naked in a bed, with him not knowing anything that went on except that he’s naked in bed with a woman and is about to lose his girl. What option does he have? There is no “wimp shaming” that can deter him, because he is defending against infidelity in this case.

        By default, under the guidelines, she becomes a rapist and her education, career hopes, family life all go on the table, especially if she is one of the first, for something she may have no understanding of, that society taught her was just ok if a woman does it to a man. Teach them to not be that girl, that with their new found “grrl power” comes a whole boatload of “grrl responsibility and accountability”.

        For the guys? Different. “How many guys here hate women? Show of hands? None? Cool, then listen the fuck up. I’d then start in by telling them about my service, of real honor, integrity, character. I’d give them my “becoming a man” speech, show them the difference between a boy and a man. I’d explain that we are bigger, meaner, more powerful, but that a boy sees power as a tool to get what he wants, a man sees it as responsibility to others.

        I’d tell them that I’ve actually stepped in on something like that, and although I do not recommend such, got into a fist fight because of it. I’d tell them that I was called a “wimp” for doing so, “pussy whipped”…but, ya know what? Fuck them. I’d did the right thing and I hold no shame for doing so, especially when I look back…and you will look back.

        How that picture looks is up to them now. I’d warn them also, that a quick dip in someone else’s pool could cost them everything, their education, their career, their family dragged through the mud….and I’d also add that I still want them to be boys at college, because boys become men. I’d tell them it is their time, to enjoy it, that I want them to wake up with their head in the shitter, spend the whole day puking their lungs up. I have no problem with them waking up on the roof with nothing but their socks on, to be rude, crude and socially unacceptable…but know where the line is, that a man never, ever, not freaking ever crosses it… know that crossing it can cost them their education, their career, their family life.

        I’d tell them that the good people have to supersede the bad, that the ole “you can change the world speech” is talking about this, not word dominance. We share this world with women, we will interact with them, live with them, work with them. Is it too much to ask of the more powerfully physical sex to grant them a modicum of dignity, safety? Really? Do we really even need these classes if our goal is to become men?

        …and humor works to help it sink in: “One last thing”. “Speaking of pools? Yeah, you know that jumping off the balcony into that blow up pool filled with beer thing? Never a good idea. Not ever. It facking hurts the next day, real bad…

        I dunno. That’s quick, fast, and dirty; off the top of my head, in need of some thought, but it’s the idea of bringing these kids together and stop this asinine gender war over shit we could solve more easily on a three dimensional scale then a single one.

        As always, just my humble opinion.

  29. “Hell, I almost got sucked in by it myself. This article has plagued me for days. I’m glad I finally woke up and realized that it’s pure garbage.”

    Very important point, Anthony, and why I voice my opinion. It is to teach guys how to identify it rather then absorb it. Its an old tactic going back to the impetus of second stage feminism. One can read feminist authors discussing the success of, “male guilt, and female anger. One can also read, Hoff-Sommers and how she exposed it all. .

    We were there in the 90s with the “culture of violence against women” that never existed. It’s actually very basic: declare and promulgate; silence opposition (men) through shame and guilt, silence all conflicting views (attack the speaker rather then the speech) so as to push an agenda forward. That stifled what this men’s movement should have been back then. We saw all the evidence, the studies from the 1 in 4 college girls being raped, to “rule of thumb”, to the Superbowl Sunday Violence against women” to gender bias in the schools, right on down to the most dangerous place for a woman to be is in her own home with her husband.

    Each and every one has been analyzed and debunked. I know that as I did some of the research and debunking. The very (equity) feminist that constructed the first women’s shelters have even affirmed this and changed sides because of such tactics. The problem is that by the time it has been demonstrated to be false, the media has already run with it, and it becomes ingrained in our social psyche…and into law

    That is how rape hysteria works. It is yet another guilt tactic, with all the trimmings, aimed at further dominating men and boys…and these events are cyclical, usually occurring when we see feminism slipping from power. Like business 101, one must continually reinvent themselves in order to maintain their demographic.

    This is just the new extremism. Now we live in a rape culture. What a great tool to use on unsuspecting men. It would have us assume that all our women spend their days cowering in fear, being raped and pillaged all around us, that we must absorb the guilt so that new and harmful legislation against men, that puts men at risk, can be implemented in no different a way as was the Violence Against Women and Children…with male victims still suffering not only the violence, but arrest (under Duluth).

    Why? It works. I mean, we are already profiling our boys. We are, in 1984 style, herding them in to reconditioning classes that we call Consent. Can you imagine profiling, say, our Muslim population with anti-terrorist talks? How about black people and anti-crime classes because the KKK fears them? We do so to men though. We can attack them openly because the are the rape culture. I’d have thought that we were the heroes who’s blod and sacrifice prevented a rape culture in the form of Nazi world dominance…but no, forget all that, lets not honor men for their sacrifices for women, for country, they are a rape culture.

    It is deep, devious, and it is more about dominance then hate. It plays on the darkest fears of women and the guilt and chivalry of men. Good women fall for it, good men suffer because of it…but the tactic works, or did until the internet, until our voices could no longer be silenced by the media, and those good men and women began to speak up. Today? It insults my intelligence and the only reason I continue to participate is to support the guys so they understand that the resentment they feel is valid and that we continue to speak up, keep our movement unabated…less we end up here once again, with a whole new generation of lost boys, our rights as humans decapitated further, rinsing and repeating some 15 years down the road.

    The most functional way to victimize is by claiming victim. The best way to exact oppression is by claiming to be oppressed. The only way to defeat this is not to argue talking points, but to expose it.

    Done. Enough. We face our social problems together, as adults without the shame, blame, and without the extremist hate. We not only sweep the special interest groups off the table, but right out of the room.

    In my best Captain Picard Voice (when facing the Borg): We draw the line here! LOL

  30. There were aproximately 84,767 rapes in this country 2014. In that same time, there were 600,000 deaths to just heart disease alone. There were another 550,000 from Malignat Neoplasms (cancer), 85,000 from Alzheimer’s, 75, 000 from diabetes, 50,000 from the flue., and 550,000 from common accidents other then medical. There were 300,000 deaths due to motor vehicle accidents.

    All of those statistics are on the rise, while rape is on the decline, down by almost 8% from just a few years ago. We are not a car accident culture, or a medical death culture, and we are not a rape culture.

    Now, the reason that I contend that assignment is not because I think it is not an important discussion to have, but that I DO think that it is an important discussion to have. It is why I am speaking only to the delivery, and not the topic.

    Understand what when we blanket all men as being just one wrong thought away from going to the Happy Saint Rapist Day parade, it turns men, good men, right off the the discussion and puts them right on the defensive. When we say, “rape culture” we accuse all of us: we are the men, we live in the culture, 2 x 2 always equals 4.

    It is not different then the, Violence against women and children” act. Who does that leave as the perpetrator (even though we know that upwards of 30% of victims are male-with not only no services, but likely, under Duluth to be abused, then arrested).

    As we see here, the conversation never happens, and all we end up with is argument, accusation, defensive posturing.

    Not the way to address anything.

    Patty, that does not a rape culture make. That is an individual event, not something that society owns, encourages, or accepts.

    If I were walking down the street in a shady neighborhood and some guy accosted me in the same way, do you think I’d be any less scared or worried about being mugged, killed? I do not call us a mugging culture as a result because society does not tacitly accept such.

    There were approximately 84,767 rapes in this country last year. Too high a number, but in perspective, pulling some quick stats down from the CDC and others, in that same time, there were 600,000 deaths to just heart disease alone. There were another 550,000 from Malignat Neoplasms (cancer), 85,000 from Alzheimer’s, 75, 000 from diabetes, 50,000 from the flue., and 550,000 from common accidents other then medical. There were 300,000 deaths due to motor vehicle accidents.

    All of those statistics are much higher, and on the rise, while rape is on the decline, down by almost 8% from just a few years ago.

    We are not a car accident culture, or a medical death culture, and we are certainly not a rape culture. We need to stop allowing those radical gender feminist (as opposed to equity feminist ideology) to inflate, and raise to the level of hysteria the thoughts and emotions of women with this type of hype, hyperbole, exaggeration, and conjecture. They do it purposely so as to twist your emotions to their own end – which is, of course, the victims stance and assumption that “all men are potential rapist and all sex is rape”. Their goal is not resolution or equality, it is conflict, separatism, dominance.

    Now, the reason that I contend that assignment is not because I think it is not an important discussion to have, but that I DO think that it is an important discussion to have. It is why I am speaking only to the delivery, and not the topic.

    Understand what when we blanket all men as being just one wrong thought away from going to the Happy Saint Rapist Day parade, it turns men, good men, right off the discussion and puts them right on the defensive. When we say, “rape culture” we accuse all of us: we are the men, we live in the culture, 2 x 2 always equals 4.

    It is no different then the, Violence against women and children” act. Who does that leave as the perpetrator (even though we know that upwards of 30% of victims are male-with not only no services, but likely, under Duluth to be abused, then arrested)?

    We know now that women rape, we know that they sexually abuse. I’ve read up on the data that came out of Florida just a few years back, and the list of child rapist (female) that did kids from 10 to 16, even handicapped kids…but we are so twisted in this that in one case of statory rape of a child, the boy was forced to pay his rapise child support for the baby she conceived as part of the rape. Imagine, if you will, had the sex’s been reversed and we forced a female child to carry to term, give up custody, and pay her rapist? We see the rapes of men in prison (that may actually be higher then rape against females), but we tend to ignore them because of this feminist orchestrated separatism founded upon theideology that all women are victims of all men.

    It is not going to work, Not ever, and we’ve shown it. As we see here, the conversation never happens, and all we end up with is argument, accusation, defensive posturing.

    Not the way to address anything, and if we are ever to address this, it has to be done in purely non-gender terms…something everyone can get on board with.

    Just my humble opinion.

    • John Anderson says:

      From what I understand rape culture are those things that normalize or minimize rape. It essentially erases victims. If that’s the case then we definitely do live in a rape culture, but not necessarily the one usually talk about like this article. Look at the CDC stats. Well the legal definition of rape involves being penetrated. That erases 90% of male victims and over 90% of female perpetrators because female perpetrators envelop and not penetrate. That would be rape culture enshrined in the law.

      In Baltimore there was an inmate who impregnated 4 prison guards, but none of the guards were charged with rape. Because they were running a drug operation, they weren’t even charged with custodial abuse, which is how a lot of staff perpetrated rape is categorized. PREA even keeps statistics on “consensual” staff perpetrated prison rape.

      What usually gets the press is actually a misconception on the part of the activists. They say it’s not about what a woman wears and technically they’re right, but also technically they’re wrong. How can that be? Well they’re right in that what she wears doesn’t mean she consented. They’re wrong because they believe that rape cases should be prosecuted in reverse. The law doesn’t work that way. The reason that dress and her going to his apartment and them kissing in public comes into play is because it speaks to criminal intent. It’s not whether she consented or not, but rather did he reasonably believe that she consented. It’s HIS criminal intent they’re supposed to be determining.

      Now activists will point to this and say see it’s rape culture because she was raped (didn’t consent), but they’re trying to make it not rape and they’d be right, however, it doesn’t match the criminal act of rape because he didn’t intent to rape her. It’s a little tricky, but it’s like bumping into someone on the street. If you hit someone, it’s assault, but if you didn’t intend to, it’s an accident and not a crime. The person is just as bruised, but it’s not a crime although there may be a civil remedy.

  31. Articles like these come from a place of good intentions but poorly worded, and with the authors “No one is innocent” malarkey, simply help to drive away “allies” and supporters. It’s blindingly obvious, so keep that in mind in the future before writing another article.

  32. We absolutely do have a rape culture in America. Now, I’m not saying every guy is a rapist… What I am saying is that rape culture exists. I pumped gas in my car a few nights ago and a random guy said, “Smile.” Well, I wasn’t up to smiling on command. I’d just battled over an hour of vicious traffic on top of a long work day. I resented the hell out of being told to do something I did not want to do. My first course of action was to ignore him.

    Not good enough.

    “Hey!” He said. “You’re an attractive woman. I just want to see you smile.”

    OK. Now I’m REALLY pissed. Again, I turned my head away, ignoring him. Now he’s pissed off.

    And now, I’m scared.

    Because a pissed off guy is dangerous to me. Of course, a pissed off woman could be dangerous to a guy, too, but statistically speaking, most guys don’t have to worry about being overpowered by a woman.

    He proceeded to call me a bitch and ugly and unfuckable as I ran to retrieve my change from the cashier and get back into my car, hoping like hell he wouldn’t follow me now.

    You’re probably wondering why I didn’t just smile. Because I resent being coerced, convinced, threatened to do something against my will just because some guy feels it’s his God-given right because he gave me a compliment.

    If you don’t understand why this is wrong, then yes — you don’t understand why rape culture is a problem.

    • Ugh, my reaction to strangers who accost me is always to ignore them. As a result, I’ve been inappropriately yelled at by men (and in one notable case a woman) who gave me a compliment or told me to smile, as well as other random people and one time even a guy from Greenpeace who wanted my signature on a petition. I used to give polite responses in these situations, but learned that it only leads to even more unwanted interaction with that person, which is the last thing I want. So I just keep my face neutral, my eyes front and keep walking like I didn’t hear. Maybe this is rude of me, but what’s ruder, me ignoring someone or them freakin out because I ignored them? What if I were hard of hearing or don’t speak English? What if I were painfully shy or have a mental health condition that makes me terrified of speaking to strangers? The point is, if you choose to accost a stranger, you have no idea what is going on in that person’s mind. They could have a thousand reasons not to want to interact with you. What possesses people to think that they can intrude on someone’s day and get a positive respnse? Of course there is no law against talking to whoever you want, you have freedom of speech, But I have freedom to ignore.

      • p.s. I’m only talking about people who accost me on the street, at dark gas stations at night etc. or who just randomly demand smiles. I have had plenty of pleasant conversations with strangers (including male persons!) in more approrpiate settings like in line at the coffee shop or at the book store and so on.

    • @Patty, I’m sorry you went through that, it was wrong and harmful. I think men like that should be dealt with by the police.

      Now genuine curious debate question, not at all wanting to dismiss or minimize or whatever. At what point does there cease to be a rape culture? Is it when there are zero rapes, zero people harassed like Patty (which means practically never as some humans are really just horrible regardless of our social values) or is it when the number of rapes, assaults, harassments dies down to a much much lower number?

      I would love a society where there is no violence but the only way I see for that to happen is basically having robotic pacification of the population, or finally figuring out methods to account for variances in genetics leading to aggression.

      What would be the ideal goal? I can see an attempt to heavily reduce sexual aggression, heavily increase social skills training for people to spot subtle body language so they don’t unintentionally harass someone, teaching people better ways to handle rejection. Teaching good ways to ask someone out would also help account for the clueless who may creep someone out with a bad approach. Major anti-violence campaigns to address sexual and domestic violence to help prevent the cycle of abuse could help, hopefully also leading to less overall aggression in the world. Major empathy training.

      I also think another method is to try reduce the sheer amount of fear-mongering that goes on where young girls are raised pretty much to be afraid of shadows, that fear reinforcing the feeling of helplessness. I think also teaching women that they are stronger than they think, I do believe that women are largely raised too often to feel like men are magnitudes higher in strength which seems to affect many women’s ability to be direct, to stand up for themselves due to the anxiety n fear being taught into them from young. That’s not to say there isn’t a lot of violence and potential harm but there is a point where there is too much focus on harm and not enough on the good, where people adjust their behaviour so much that they limit their lives and do not feel safe.

      It’s a hypervigilance I see clearly in too many women because it reminds me of my own from my anxiety disorder and I don’t want women or men to feel so afraid of the unknown, I don’t want women to be trained to be afraid of men to the point they have major trust issues and do not believe in their own strength because I am 100% certain it is heavily reinforcing the power differences in the genders. I will do everything in my power to raise daughters to be strong if I have any because I see so much harm being done unintentionally via cognitive biases humans have. Places of support against violence for instance can act like echo chambers and help lead to negative views of certain situations because you’re hearing a lot of the negatives and cognitive biases can have us focusing on that more than we should.

      One example I see is the fear of the stranger kidnapping and killing a woman randomly on the street, after a violent park attack you can see many women take extra precautions because that fear kicks in hard. The cognitive bias here is she’s actually at more risk of dying in a car crash but probably won’t have that level of fear there, and her partner is far far more likely to hurt her than the boogeyman in the bushes. Fear is learned both by experiences we have, and also by stories and how we were raised and women are raised too often in fear which needs to stop.

      To see the stark difference, look at statistcs on how afraid women feel compared to men on the street which men are more at risk of violent attack and being killed by random strangers than women. Men on average tend to not know their risk, or do their best to hide the fear I find, and for those unaware of the dangers there is a luxury of the false sense of security which can lead to doing things and experiencing much more in the world by not holding yourself back. In fact if one were to walk around truly knowing every risk they have, you can potentially trigger an anxiety disorder.

      And the sad fact that comes from this is a population raised on fear is much easier to control, to underestimate your ability to defend yourself can lead to coercion attempts being far more successful.

    • @ Patty Blount,

      Yes, what you experienced was indeed wrong. No argument.

      But…….how many times in your life have you experienced this while pumping gas? Of all the men you encounter on a daily basis, how many of those men did something, said something, or threatened to to something to you?

      Please think before you answer..Seriously.

  33. This doesn’t convince me about immunity to rape culture, it’s trying to force me to believe that I am the problem by existing. It turns me off and makes me resent feminist rhetoric and think lowly of any man who represents it. It tells me that if I am to support feminism, I must endlessly bow down and apologize for having a penis and apologize for issues I am not responsible for.

    The main message is “no means no” and uhhh everybody knows that. Those of us who choose not to follow that will suffer the consequences in a court of law if the victim prosecutes. It is a choice, not a lack of knowledge and not a supported action from this society aka the “patriarchy”.

    Everything else is nitpicky bullshit that inexperienced boys go through and learn from and should not feel ashamed or “rapey” about. (unless they continually repeat it after Learning from the encounter)

    Every action this article talks about FAILS to attract women and will get any guy NO WHERE with a girl. To think that only feminists and “feminist men”, can see that is appalling.

    Some guys do not get it, but unless this article can supply those guys with a better ways to attract women then men will either; ignore this message, get defensive and might get them to hate feminists OR they will feel guilty endlessly apologize and think supporting feminism is the path to getting them a girlfriend. Either way, the feminists and women in general will lose, unless they’re bi or lesbian. As this isn’t helping men be more attractive, it’s just getting them to react in negative ways.

  34. First time I’ve ever burst into tears reading something.
    Thanks Cooper 🙂

  35. Mostly_123 says:

    “We have absolutely no right, as men, to ‘convince’ women to do anything… Feminists don’t hate men, they hate how they’re made to feel by men. They hate that they can’t end a conversation until the man they’re talking to decides it’s over, because if they try to he’ll just keep talking, if they block his messages he’ll start emailing, or DMing, or anything to make his point because it doesn’t matter that they don’t want to talk to him, does it? He has a point to make. What gives you the fucking right? You are making us all look bad.”

    There’s some rhetorical sleight-of-hand at play here: Fundamentally, the issue here is one of coercion – the inequitable and/or inappropriate leveraging of power, influence, or provocation. No one questions or debates the immorality and deleterious nature coercion and coercive behavior. But the narrative here is attempting to juxtapose gender in a blanket fashion onto a subset of behavior that is defined specifically and explicitly by a particular characteristic (which is coercion, and the employment of it), shifting it from that specific, defining characteristic, into conjecturing it or redefining it as a characteristic (or character flaw) of gender- specifically, the male gender.  

    Once again, this is errant (to say nothing of offensive) because it arbitrarily shifts, and thus misrepresents, the actual detrimental trait or behavior (coerciveness & the ready employment of coercion) as merely then being a consequence, an innate characteristic, a latent trait, or a flaw of another. And this is done, I would argue, for the sake of perpetuating the flawed gender-conflict narrative. It’s telling then that the author felt it incumbent or beneficial to assert so earnestly that feminism & feminists do not hold innately or unduly antagonistic views of another gender, simply because they are another gender; thus inoculating such from the critique that an antagonistic gendered perspective is motived simply by (reciprocally gendered) spite or petulance. The problem though isn’t in motivation; the problem lies in the actual validity and integrity of the rationale itself- That is, the flawed notion that this is all reducible down to gender, conflicting gendered interests, and aggregate levels of power that can be collectively defined & characterized by gender. It isn’t.             

    Whether or not ‘feminists hate’ or ‘don’t hate men’ in this is wholly irrelevant and misleading, because regardless, it’s already proceeding ahead from the false assumption that, as Stephen Buckle described it, “Society is conceived as a scene of a basic division of interests between men and women, whether it be between actual men and women, male political structures and female political inclusiveness or male conceptual hierarchies and female conceptual fluidity… In short, whatever its disclaimers, feminism continues to believe that the problem society must deal with and overcome is (some form of) maleness.” – This is the essence of the traditional class conflict model, adapted into a doctrine which presumes intrinsic, innate, irrevocable conflict of interest over finite streams of power; by gender, and across gender. Moreover, it also assumes, in true zero-sum fashion, that people of diverging genders are wholly characterized by them, and thus, will have –must have– conflicting & competing (rather than corresponding, coinciding, complimentary, or wholly dissimilar) interests, objectives, and avenues of power. It is the flawed notion that all is based solely & paramountly on genders, and that when there are discrepancies of power, it is all reducible to gender. It assumes that one party cannot exercise power or achieve an objective, unless the other party is proportionately leveraged, disempowered (or disempowers itself), disadvantaged, accedes, or otherwise acquiesces or is duped into giving up its own vital interests or agency, in some fashion. This too is a fallacy, and a very dangerous & detrimental one. Either by design or by error people represent and misrepresent their own interests all the time, to various degrees of efficacy. But to attribute the divergences, vagaries and discrepancies of efficacy, power & morality to be reducible simply to gender; to characterize coercion and coerciveness as an innate gender flaw, in need of collective gendered reprimand, is profoundly unsound and unprincipled.

  36. I saw the title and thought this might be an article discussing how rape culture can harm men and boys, such as telling schoolboy rape victims how lucky they are when raped by an adult woman, or the dismissal that “men can’t be raped by women”, or using false statistics to minimize and dismiss the large amount of sexual violence against men, especially by women.

    This article is trying to explain a hyper-complex issue in very simplistic terms and is failing hard, it’s just poorly written. Already you’ve confused multiple men on the issue with the black and white logic.

    “We have absolutely no right, as men, to “convince” women to do anything.”

    No, we don’t have a right, but HUMANS do engage in negotiations all the time to find mutually beneficial activities to do. If she is uncertain of an activity, he may need to reassure her, comfort her, try to make her feel safe, negotiate a way to do the activity where she feels it’s ok. Change the word “convince” to pressure or coerce and people will understand you better.

    “If a woman says no, stop, you’re making me uncomfortable, or anything else along those lines—IMMEDIATELY do it. ”

    You then have to gauge the situation. “Stop, that’s uncomfortable for me” could mean she wants you to thrust more shallow as you were hitting her cervix. Consent is constantly being updated, everyone needs continual consent.

    “as you tell that woman who wants to use barriers for oral sex that she doesn’t know what she’s missing,”

    Unprotected sex can feel better for both parties depending on the person. It may be a gross factor “But you pee out of it” and people can overcome their aversion to that activity, negotiation WITHOUT PRESSURE is needed to explore that option. If it’s a gf, or someone you’re already in bed with a better option is to say I respect your decision, and ask them why and try understand their view. If they’re worried about STI’s, one potential option is both get tested which may put her mind at ease. I myself would want protection for sex until I know there’s a very low chance of pregnancy AND no sti’s detected.

    “P.S. Now I know there’ll be someone out there who wants to play devil’s advocate, or point out that men disrespect men too and women disrespect men. Just like #AllLivesMatter VS #BlackLivesMatter, you may be saying something that’s true, but you’re not saying something that’s helpful.

    Don’t be the glass is 3% full guy.”

    We have far far far greater focus on how sexual violence harms women, so much so that the conversation has drowned out the focus on sexual violence harming men. Most women I see taking about statistics of rape haven’t got a clue how many women actually rape and assault men. So yes, it can be quite helpful and not at all comparable to racial issues. Look at the domain name for this website, it’s a site for men, about men mostly and our society still has a disproportionate level of focus on women’s issues over men’s regarding sexual assault and domestic/interpersonal violence.

  37. “Rape Culture IS our culture.”

    I say bull f*****ing s**t!!!

    We do NOT have a rape culture here in America. It is a myth.

    The statistics often cited to back up this myth are simply bogus.

    Every single official (FBI, etc) statistic on rape and violence against women clearly indicate that such crimes are at 50 year lows. So, just how is it that we have a “rape culture.”? WE DO NOT!

    Lastly I am going to say this: Just because we have crime in America, that does not mean we have a criminal culture. So, no I am not to going waste my precious time worrying about criminals. That is what law enforcement is for.

  38. I dunno. There seems to be less accurate information about feminism then there is rape in this article. It is way over the top to the point of accusatory. From there it devolves into feminist dogma and male bashing.

    At the most, in the worst case studies, 6% of men attempt rape in one form or another. Tighter statistics demonstrate that it may be closer to 3%, and that 3% are not at all, not even by accident, the men that will be reading this article, or attending anti-rape classes

    We also know (even though there is attempt to challenge at present), that most rapes are the result of repeat offenses with the number of rapes as high as 7. They are not the rest of us and the notion that we inherently support a “rape culture” is the greatest of logical fallacies.

    No means no. Rape is rape. You can’t rape by accident as the odds of your penis falling into her vagina are pretty slim. That is all that has to be said. That is the act. Pursuing a woman against her will (or a man for that matter) is stalking, not rape, not an attempt to rape. A stumbling attempt at seduction, is not an attempted rape, not until the word “no” is heard. By the hysteria listed here, my wife is guilty of raping me.

    That is the problem with zealotry. There was absolutely not need to approach this delicate subject in this way. There was no need to toss blanket over all men as if we have the power to stop all evil in the world, and are in support of rape, of this “rape culture” if we do not jump into the nearest phone booth to change clothes.

    If we want to discuss a topic as important as this one we’d have to first determine a myriad of parameters including whether we are discussing such on a micro are macro scale. We would then have to present accurate statistical data that paints a clear picture of where the problem actually lies rather then making it up as we go along, so that we do not proceed from an entirely incorrect premise.

    We do not accomplish that by running through the crowd tasing anything with a penis. Whatever feeling of hate and resentment that feminist may feel toward a particular class of people is their own issue, not mine, not ours. We are not the Borg, and the paranoia that allows them the ability to skew is not something shared by the other 90% of women (in this country anyway), and they do not speak for women.

    Feminist want to prove they don’t hate men? They want to bring issues to the table? Bring the issue, leave the hate.

    My opinion.

  39. John Anderson says:

    “or that she’ll be missing out on something awesome if she doesn’t give you a chance–that fact?”

    I wouldn’t have a problem with that except that so many men here are being told to value women for something other than their looks. That’s the same thing as saying that he’s going to miss out on something wonderful that he’s not interested in. Now we know whenever women tell us that, they’re perpetuating rape culture.

  40. Richard Johnson says:

    “We have absolutely no right, as men, to ‘convince’ women to do anything.”

    BS. Everyone has the right to try to convince anyone else of anything. It’s called freedom of speech.

    “The fact that there IS a question in some of your minds, or the thought that maybe if you just point out why she’s wrong about her impression of you, or that she just misunderstood, or that she’ll be missing out on something awesome if she doesn’t give you a chance–that fact? That’s absolutely appalling.”

    No, what’s appalling is that so many people make snap judgments about other people based on little to no information, or based on a misinterpretation of what they said that anyone with a second-grade understanding of English should have been able to interpret correctly. There’s nothing appalling about correcting misconceptions or encouraging other people to have an open mind.

    “Rape Culture IS our culture.”

    This article was written by either a full tard or someone who lives in the Middle East. Rape culture does not exist in first-world countries.

    “Because the same thing that makes a man feel it’s okay to violate bodily makes him feel it’s okay to suggest that the woman who just said ‘No, thank you’ to him should give him a chance ‘cuz he’s really rather sweet”

    Did this author just compare de facto rape to suggesting that a woman get to know a guy before turning him down? Yeah, this dude is full tard. I’m not going to respond to the rest.

  41. John Anderson says:

    I think there are definitely cases where you are wrong. Let’s look at the never try to convince a woman. If you’re in a relationship, where do you draw the line between convincing and negotiating. You ask you GF for oral sex without a condom. She tells you know so since you can’t talk to her, you decide that the relationship isn’t working for you and break it off, but you don’t tell her because you know you don’t owe her an explanation either. She starts calling and texting, but you don’t return her calls and then accuse her of harassment when she’s just trying to get an answer. Is that the world you’re advocating? Would she be the a**hole in that situation?

    Also taking a woman’s no at face value let me give you a real world example. I had a friend (we hadn’t spoken or hung out since that night about 25 years ago) who hit his GF, but not in front of us. We noticed that she had bruises, which she didn’t have just moments before. We ask her if she was OK and if there was anything we could do. She said she was fine. Should we have just left it at that and went about our business trying to pick up women? We made it a point to have one of us close by because he wouldn’t hit her in front of us. I’m guessing in that case it’s OK not to just shrug your shoulders and go about your business. Maybe we shouldn’t have asked her anything at all, since we don’t owe her anything, right?

    • John,

      The difference between negotiating and convincing is not hard.

      You’re negotiating if you and someone else are interested in something and you’re deciding how to get there. “Hey, we both want to get off” “How do we want to do it?” “Do we use barriers tonight?” “Yes please” “Alright then”.

      You’re convincing someone if someone has made their opinion OR their preferences OR their boundaries clear and you’re still trying to make a case for something. “Lets not use a condom tonight.” “No, lets use it.” “But it doesn’t feel as good, come on.”

      You have the right to step away from an interaction AND a relationship the same way she does. Her not respecting your boundaries isn’t right but you know what, she along with other women walk around in the world having their boundaries not respected every day, you can get over your desire not to be contacted infringed on a little.

      In your real world example yes… you sound like you did the right thing, but you also could have spoken to your friend and made it clear it wasn’t acceptable. Abuse is complex and the only thing that makes it go away is by calling it when you see it. Being around her when you’re all together is great but yo ucan’t be around her all the time. Step up and do something about it to your friend. If your friend is abusing someone you should pick your friends better.

      • John Anderson says:

        @ Dylan

        “you can get over your desire not to be contacted infringed on a little”

        So some rape culture is acceptable? It’s either rape culture or it’s not. It’s either acceptable or it’s not. It shouldn’t be contingent on the gender of the perpetrator and the victim.

        • It’s not acceptable

          Men aren’t surrounded by a society that is constantly reducing you to your penis. Men have support everywhere, we aren’t alone.

          Women are surrounded by a society that reduces them to tits and a pussy. Women get told to stop complaining and harden the fuck up, or that the guys didn’t mean it, or that the guys were being playful, or they should accept that attention as compliments.

          It’s not acceptable but it’s also not worth equating with what women have to deal with.

          • That is simply not true, Dylan. Women have a myriad of resources. In fact, far more then men. There is still some objectification of women, but there is a concerted effort to combat that. We also know that we objectify men as both wallets and cannon fodder, and now, sex objects in a most flagrant way. It is also men that are told to “suck it up”. We invented the concept.That is not said to diminish the issues of women, but to simply correct, keep the information accurate, and on topic so that we do not skew further into the abyss.

            The subject is rape, not body image or anything else. If we want to discuss it, the place to start is the fact that the serial rapist can have up to 7 rapes under his belt and still be out there. Even when we do catch them, we toss them in prison for a while, expose them to gang warfare, a real rape culture that is supported tacitly by society, weight rooms so they come out meaner, stronger, angrier-unleashed upon our women. We also know, at the core, the issues that are creating such men.

            Mucking up the conversation with anger, accusation, argumentation resulting from extremism only leads us further away from accurate and timely resolution. It is the problem any time this topic comes up.

            • C’mon now, Jenny. There is no more a “rape culture” then there was a “culture of abuse of women”, a “culture of gold diggers” or anything else. In fact, if we seek to talk about cultural abuse, we can talk about the culture of blame hefted upon men…as is being done here.

              That accusation holds no merit beyond feminist belief, which, again, has no bearing on the rest of us. It exists only because, as we see here, male discussion on the subject has been stifled, while a special interest group has been allowed to promulgate any dogmatic belief into social consciousness.

              There can be a rape culture. It exists in parts of the world, but it does not exist here and certainly does not exist on our college campuses… and no one accepts it as a fact of life, no more then mass shootings, or anything else. Stuff happens, and we do our best to prevent it, but if 3% of men rape, and 97% of men are against rape, how does that manifest itself as a ‘rape culture, rather then an “anti rape culture?”. That only occurs when the zealots and extremist tangle the web by using inflammatory accusation such as a culture of rape, attempt to speak for all women, and issue proclamation on behalf of a sub-group that they neither represent or that are in line with their belief system.

              The fact is that the only place a “Rape culture” exists is in our prison system…which effects men, not women. We know that as we’ve seen judges use that threat as a deterrent. We know that a kid sentenced for selling a bag of pot would be subject to the additional sentence of being gang raped repeatedly, or subjected to being some males sex slave for the duration of his stay. It is fully accepted there, but certainly not in society…but that is how feminism twists the issues, and why conflict on the issue still exists.

              The fact is that to use a phrase such as “rape culture” outside of that context is at the least disingenuous, at the most inflammatory and counter productive to the end result because it polarizes rather then unties in cause. It is no less hateful then slut shaming or any other catch phrase made up by one group as a means of convoluting valid issues and reforming them in a way that targets another sub group. A control mechanism

              There is no reason for, and no benefit to that type of extremist rhetoric and it only exists mainly in our universities where men are silence under threat of job loss and personal attack (see the boy that refused to go to rape classes and what he suffered as a result), but it does not fly out here in the real world were men can speak up without threat or bullying.

              I’m sorry. I know I’m being stern here, but its nonsense. If we want to talk about ending rape, I’m all in. We want to hurl dogma, argue that we men are conditioned to accept rape, then all we will get is just that. Argument…and have one more male turn a deaf ear as no one wants to be the brunt of another’s anger or resentment, especially when they are not only innocent, but of like mind.

            • “Rape culture is a complex set of beliefs that encourage male sexual aggression and supports violence against women.”

              Put bluntly, the advocates of rape culture don’t care at all about the complex set of beliefs that encourage FEMALE sexual aggression and supporting sexual violence against men, because it’s all about Man = perpetrator, woman = the victim. Women do not own the concept of being a victim of sexual violence, men are not the only perpetrators and your language others the male victims pretty badly.

            • No one is accusing anyone of being a rapist.
              No the accusation is that by being men, we contribute to women feeling like they are constantly under threat of violence. Not what we say. Not what we do. Just being men.

              As the writer of this article says in a comment above. NONE OF US ARE INNOCENT.

            • Jenny Kanevsky,
              We also have a society or culture that encourage male initiative, to the point of shaming or bullying those who are introvert, shy, or sometimes just plain respectful of a “no”. And by and large women partake in this too.

              But I am in no way condoning stepping over the line and being disrespectful.

          • @ Dylan Thomas,

            “Women are surrounded by a society that reduces them to tits and a pussy. Women get told to stop complaining and harden the fuck up, or that the guys didn’t mean it, or that the guys were being playful, or they should accept that attention as compliments.”

            BS!!!!!!!!

            When women opt to become porn actresses, escorts (Ivy League), pose nude, send nude pics to lovers and boyfriends,…….are not women the ones who are really reducing themselves to tits and asses? Seriously.

            Where is the persona responsibility of women? Again, women have zero responsibility for their behavior. Hence zero accountability.

            • Choosing to send nudes doesn’t reduce people to tits an asses, nor is it a bad thing.

              @Dylan, oppression olympics is not helpful, nor is dismissing harm done to men “because womengetitworse”. Do you not even grasp the concept that society largely assumes men are ALWAYS up for sex and many don’t even believe a man can be raped by a woman?

              “Men have support everywhere, we aren’t alone.”
              Are you a troll? There’s no way a reasonably intelligent person would ever make a silly comment like this. Men are heavily under-represented in sexual violence advocacy and support services. Seriously, please do some more research on the world.

      • “You have the right to step away from an interaction AND a relationship the same way she does. Her not respecting your boundaries isn’t right but you know what, she along with other women walk around in the world having their boundaries not respected every day, you can get over your desire not to be contacted infringed on a little.”

        So womengetitworse and a man just needs to get over harassment against him. Stop dismissing harms against men with bad logic, attitudes like yours harm male victims of violence as if harm against women is worse. Men are quite capable of feeling great terror from stalkers who harass them.

  42. Richard Aubrey says:

    Doesn’t take long to find hits on the ‘net saying a woman wants a guy who will call her on her crap…or something else. Won’t let her push him around. Stand up to her.
    And a guy who takes the first “no” is a loser say some women.
    So it’s mixed messages but the writer gets to feel like a hero by smearing the rest of us.

    • Gabriel Pandora says:

      It’s really very simple: If a woman says “no,” she either means it (the more likely possibility), or she’s playing games (less likely, but we’ll go with it for the sake of argument). Either way, I’m taking it at face value and moving on. If she thinks a guy who takes the first “no” is a loser, then it’s her loss when I take the first “no.” Communication is a two-way street, and I’m not the one failing to communicate effectively in this scenario.

  43. You’re treading a fine line here with some of this. On the one hand, we (as men) get advised that the reason some of us get walked on our whole lives is because we’re not assertive enough about what we want. But if we do anything that’s construed as “over-assertive” (ie. pushy), it’s because we’re evil incarnate.

    I honestly don’t think I’ve ever acted in any way that could be construed that way. My life boiled down to a simple repeating formula for years: talk to woman, seem to hit it off, ask her out for drinks or coffee, she says no, end of story. (I might as well be completely asexual for the purposes of any other such discussion)

    There have been times where I’ve gotten the sense that I tried to hold the attention of a woman beyond her interest, and I’ve realized later that this is what probably happened.

    I bet that some of those times, the woman even included me in their thoughts about how “They hate that they can’t end a conversation until the man they’re talking to decides it’s over, because if they try to he’ll just keep talking.”

    So it’s up to me to be assertive, but not too assertive, and read all the signs, and never make any mistakes in judgement, otherwise I’m the asshole for not getting the clue that this woman doesn’t want to talk to me any more, but there’s no onus on her to have made that clear.

    I’ll agree with the main point of this article though, which is that if you get a clear “no” (or more specifically in some situations, don’t get a clear “yes”) from someone, that’s your cue to back off immediately.

    It’s the grey area where it’s all on the guy to be a flawless mind-reader that consistently bothers me.

    • The part that is truly the most important to recognize here: “I honestly don’t think I’ve ever acted in any way that could be construed that way.”

      I too have felt that, and I too have said and done things that helped perpetuate Rape Culture. NONE OF US ARE INNOCENT. It just takes learning from our mistakes and listening instead of being contrary.

      • Well, see, this is the problem, and I fully disagree with that statement. Any behavior on my part has never even had anything to do with gender. I’ve been known to talk a guy’s ear off too, just because.

        If anything, I’ve been sexist in that I’m so much more careful around women, making sure not to do anything that would potentially be seen as unwanted attention, that it’s made me into a walking ball of fear. I’ve been that way for years. I never compliment women in any way that I wouldn’t just as easily compliment a man. I never make any sexual or sexist jokes, and never even crack a smile at one if there are women around. Quite honestly, I don’t even like being caught looking at a woman, and if there’s an empty seat on the train across from an attractive woman, no way am I sitting there. I’m thoroughly terrified of being labeled a creep, just for looking at a woman and potentially making her uncomfortable. Maybe that’s part of why I was completely single for the better part of two decades, and maybe that’s why I deeply resent anyone implying that I might be perpetuating rape culture.

        In fact, I don’t know why I decided to post in this thread. Obviously, I’m too close to this issue. In fact, my first real relationship of any kind with a woman, decades after trying to get past all this, ended up being with an actual rape survivor. Sometimes it was rough, and we went through a lot together for years. To this day, she still contends that I helped a lot in her own healing, and I know I certainly learned a lot.

        So yeah, I guess this article just rubs me the wrong way for a lot of personal reasons. Sorry if I brought too much baggage in here.

      • @ Cooper S. Beckett,,

        “NONE OF US ARE INNOCENT.”

        Speak for your damn self!!!!

        There are many of us out here who have never engaged in this sort of crap. NEVER!

        • This is what stuns me, Jules. We see not one, but several blanket accusations against men while the claim is made that it is not an attack on all men. The only thing that amazes me more (and I’m not being sarcastic here but seriously inquiring), is the fact that the feeling of accusation is universal with virtually all the men posting here, the proof is in the authors own written words, yet the concern is being dismissed as a, I dunno, figment?

          I’m not sure how we even get that as right now I sort of feel like I’m insane. Its almost an art form. The only real benefit to this article, this argument we are having is that we can all see just how it works, and without good men there to combat it, becomes an assumed truth…or denial.

          • John Anderson says:

            @ DJ

            I remember talking to a feminist about rape. She was patting herself on the back sating that feminists pushed for a redefinition of rape that recognizes men can be raped as well. I told her that I was still grappling with whether that was a benefit or detriment to men as the new definition ignores over 90% of the times when men are raped and 99% of the times men are raped by women (a skeptic may wonder why the definition feminists pushed did this, but that’s a discussion for another day)

            She was confused so I pointed out that if I said all rape reports are false, everybody would know that was BS because there was this case here and the one there, etc. If I said 97% of rape claims are false, people may accept that as fact because it accounts for that case and the other case. What does that do to a woman’s accusation though? People don’t believe it because it’s rare. People look for things wrong with it or assume that there is something wrong with it that she’s not saying because how could this one possibly be true? Can you see how recognizing 3% of rape cases can be detrimental to men instead of helpful?

            The author gets a hostile response because he’s using absolute language. Every time you talk to a woman it’s rape. Well people know it’s BS. Heck even some women may realize that. Look at Her’s response at the beginning. Seems she was a bit ambivalent about it at the onset. I don’t know how much it hurts female victims, but it certainly doesn’t help. I wouldn’t say that he intentionally hurt male victims, but the intent doesn’t diminish the harm.

      • “NONE OF US ARE INNOCENT.”

        Is this like original sin or do you think every human contributes to rape culture? Even people with trapped in syndrome or need 24/7 care? Children too?

        And people wonder why the rape culture issue gets treated with such defensiveness when authors of articles are assuming everyone contributes to it.

      • I too have felt that, and I too have said and done things that helped perpetuate Rape Culture. NONE OF US ARE INNOCENT. It just takes learning from our mistakes and listening instead of being contrary.
        And this is where you lose me.

        If you want men to stop and consider the possibility that they have perpetuated rape culture that’s one thing. But at this point you are basically saying by the very virtue that we are men we must have done something at some point at some time to perpetuate rape culture.

        That’s not examination. That’s just faith.

        Does is happen? Yes. Should it be dealt with? Yes. But how can it be dealt with when we are expected to just take it on faith that its happening rather than actually looking at situations and see where its happening?

      • If she says no, get up and leave ASAP. Don’t wait for explanations or excuses. You will save yourself a lot of grief . Go MGTOW and don’t bother.

    • Anthony, there’s this thing called communication and it goes both ways.

      It may not be your fault you feel like you have to walk a funny line when you interact with women or feel like you have to be a flawless mind-reader but the fact is, you don’t. You have to listen, you have to pay attention, and if you don’t know any better, you have to ask, otherwise you’re fumbling around in the dark and are liable to transgress in some of the ways you described

      This isn’t rocket science, it’s communication.

      • John Anderson says:

        That would make more sense, but I don’t think that’s what the article is saying. The article is saying that if you offer to buy a woman a beer and she tells you she doesn’t drink beer then it’s a no end of story. You can’t offer to buy her a long island iced tea. There in lies the problem of saying that you can’t convince someone ever or it’s rape culture. It stops people from communicating and negotiating.

        I read your response on it and I disagree. Both people do not have to be interested in getting to the same place for it to be a negotiation. They can chose to get to different places. He requests oral sex without a condom. She asks him to take her out to dance (maybe he hates dancing). They both compromised for things that they wanted even if it got them to different places.

        • There is a chance you are going to make a woman feel uncomfortable, and you may not realize it or mean it. Some of it can be partly her own issues to deal with since we all carry our biases around. For instance your size alone may make her feel uncomfy and that isn’t your fault at all but you can try limit how your size affects her by not standing in between her and the exit, not towering over her, and doing what you can to listen and read her body language so you can backoff when you see her being uncomfy. Some women though will be hyper-vigilant and be creeped out by you due to previous trauma or other issues, and that is not your fault.

        • Gabriel Pandora says:

          Communication isn’t just a about what is said, it’s about how it’s said in the context in which it’s said. To borrow your example above, if I offer to buy a woman a beer and she says “No thanks, I don’t drink beer” and turns away from me, that’s a no, end of story. I won’t try to talk to her again. If she says “No thanks, I don’t drink beer” and turns toward me and smiles, that leaves the door open to offer a Long Island iced tea. It’s really not that hard to tell the difference.

          The first response closes the door to communication and negotiation, the second invites it. And both are totally okay. No one owes anyone an opportunity to communicate or negotiate. If Person A wants to communicate and/or negotiate and Person B doesn’t, then it’s over. Time to move along. Person A can either accept it gracefully, or be an overly-persistent asshole.

    • Richard Johnson says:

      “I honestly don’t think I’ve ever acted in any way that could be construed that way. My life boiled down to a simple repeating formula for years: talk to woman, seem to hit it off, ask her out for drinks or coffee, she says no, end of story.”

      story of my life, bro.

  44. Thanks….I think…. Yeah, thanks! True! Women are made to feel like they aren’t “owed” anything in this world. BUT, “it’s a man’s world”, right? Maybe at one time, though I don’t know why it should ever have been. Nevertheless, not anymore, thankfully!
    Here’s to mutually beneficial—for all! The world is big enough for that—I promise!

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