Andrew Smiler reviews the numbers and concludes that the idea guys want lots of different partners is fiction.
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The idea that guys want lots of sexual partners is central to our culture’s conceptualization of young men’s sexuality. It shows up as the idea that guys would screw around if they could, that more partners is better, and that a guy who has lots of partners is The Man. As someone who writes about sex, and who conducts academic research on sex, it’s a response I hear a lot (see comments here, here, and here).
Many of us even know one or two guys who’ve had lots of partners. But for most of us, it’s “only” one or two dudes out of all the guys we know, which means that a relatively small percentage of the guys in our actual life fit the image. So we’re left with the question of what’s fact and what’s fiction when it comes to number of partners?
Public health and social science researchers have asked men about number of partners for decades. The primary reasons for asking guys about their sexual behavior have to do with risk for contracting or spreading sexually transmitted infections (STIs), including HIV, as well as risk of having an unplanned pregnancy. Secondary reasons include better understanding of sexual behaviors and human development.
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To figure out how many partners guys want, researchers often ask “Ideally, how many sexual partners would you like to have in the next month?” with a blank line so that survey-takers can fill in any number they like. That question is central to Sexual Strategies Theory, a part of the Evolutionary Psychology movement. It’s typically asked of college students who are taking Introduction to Psychology. For the researchers, the goal is to demonstrate a clear difference between young women and young men regarding desired promiscuity. And the research is clear: a higher percentage of young men than young women are interested in having 2 or more partners in the next 30 days. For American undergrads, the numbers are often about 25% of guys vs. about 5% of girls. Clearly, men have greater interest in multiple partners.
College age dudes are stereotyped as incredibly horny and not particularly selective, and they’re living in what has come to be described as a “hookup culture.” Yet only 25% of these guys say they want two or more partners in the next month.
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But hold on a second. Why is it only about 25%, or one guy in four? We’re talking about college students here. Most of the guys are 18 or 19, live away from home without direct adult supervision, and are not married. They live with girls who are the same age, also unmarried, and also living without direct supervision. College age dudes are stereotyped as incredibly horny and not particularly selective, and they’re living in what has come to be described as a “hookup culture.” Yet only 25% of these guys say they want two or more partners in the next month. What’s up with that?
Sure, about half of them are in monogamous dating relationships and thus aren’t interested in sleeping around. But if dudes were really all about having lots of partners, why would they agree to be in those relationships? It’s not like anyone can force a guy to be someone’s boyfriend.
I suppose it’s possible that some young men are giving the politically correct answer and saying they only want one partner, but I’m not sure why they’d do that. It’s not like guys have a reputation for minimizing their number of partners. The surveys are anonymous, so there’s no way their answers could be revealed. And even if Jimmy’s answers were somehow made public, who would be surprised if he said he wanted 30 partners in 30 days? OK, Jimmy’s parent’s or partner might be shocked, but isn’t that the kind of answer we’d expect?
It’s also possible that some guys are trying to be “realistic,” because they know they can’t or won’t have as many partners as they want. That means they’re not actually answering the question that’s being asked: “Ideally, how many sexual partners would you like to have in the next month?” I’m not sure why we think that young men in college have so much trouble understanding a simple sentence or why they’d replace that with the question “how may partners do you think you could actually have sex with in the next 30 days.” And if that’s what’s going on, then we need a sizable percentage of guys—at least 25%—to be making that mental substitution. That seems unlikely.
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Maybe it’s not really about how many partners they say they want, maybe it’s about the number of partners they actually have because maybe they somehow just end up having sex even though they hadn’t planned to. Y’know, “it just happened.” After all, we assume guys do not refuse sex.
When researchers ask male undergrads how many partners they’ve had in the last 12 months, about 15 to 20% of guys say they’ve had three or more partners in the last year (here, here, or here). And remember, we’re still talking about 18 and 19 year old unmarried guys who have very little in the way of adult supervision and live in close proximity to lots and lots of unmarried and unsupervised girls.
They’re also talking about three partners in one year, or one new partner every four months (on average). Because most researchers don’t ask guys to describe the relationship, so there’s no way to know if a guy with 3 partners has just been finding random partners, if he’s into serial monogamy but his relationships only last for a two or three months, or some other set of “relationships” with his partners.
Even though it puts a dude in the top 15 or 20%, three partners in one year wouldn’t sound like a lot in any other area of life. Let’s assume a dude was seriously trying to get laid and went to one party every week. If he has three hookup partners in one year, that means he’d only “score” 1 time in 16 weeks. That’s a “batting average” of .0625, and it assumes he’s only hitting on one young woman at any given party. Major league pitchers are better hitters than that.
Of course, a college guy doesn’t have to sleep with college girls. If he’s really just interested in getting laid, he could always go to a hookup website. At the risk of sounding skanky or desperate, he could cruise the local high school to find a girl who’d be thrilled to f— a college guy.
For that matter, he could always hire a sex worker. It’s a lot easier than spending the whole night trying to impress someone with his money, charm, or good looks without really knowing if he’s going to get laid. Besides, why settle for an amateur when you can have a pro? If it’s really about sleeping around and having more partners, then how you get those partners doesn’t matter.
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Maybe the reality is that when guys talk about wanting lots of partners, most of them are just conforming to the stereotype and staying inside the “man box” because they’ll get crap if they say “no, I’d prefer one steady partner.”
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Overall, it seems like the fiction is that guys want lots of different partners. No matter how we cut it, only a minority – albeit a sizable minority – of 18 and 19 year old dudes say they want two or more partners in the next 30 days. An somewhat smaller minority, 15 to 20%, have 3 or more partners per year. If there’s any group of guys on the planet that are in a better position to have lots of partners in a short time period, I’d like to know who they are, because these numbers say most guys aren’t that interested in having lots of partners.
Maybe the reality is that when guys talk about wanting lots of partners, most of them are just conforming to the stereotype and staying inside the “man box” because they’ll get crap if they say “no, I’d prefer one steady partner.” Or maybe we’re like the 12 year old boy at the end of Animal House who has a hot babe fly through his window and land in his bed; we’re willing to screw around, but only if we don’t have to do any work to make it happen.
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This post is republished on Medium.
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Photo credit: iStock
One reason for the persistence of this stereotype is the difference in the way that men and women talk about their sexual partners. Because of certain social pressures, young men have incentive to inflate their numbers, and women have pressure to deflate their numbers. The number of partners that men and women have (or want) is probably much closer than we’ve been led to believe.
Consider the fact that these hetero men are having sex with women. If the men’s numbers are high, then there must be some women’s numbers that are at least as high….
I think one reason LTRs/marriages end up sexless is because people aren’t honest up front about what they actually want. Men especially seem prone to lying, or lying by omission if they suspect the truth may hinder their shot at a relationship with the object of their affection. The problem is eventually the truth comes out or is discovered or the partner begins to suspect things and the immense hurt and distrust this evokes in a woman can ice over even the hottest most insatiable female libido. There is nothing loveable or sexy or at all attractive about stumbling across… Read more »
I am so tired of these articles, and anything begging to explain some difference between men and women. They are all flawed in many ways, including the following: 1- They keep step with the myth of binary sexual culture. Sexual and Gender researchers have known this to be a widely accepted falsehood for some time. Intersex, transgenders, hermaphrodites, have been known for about for a long time now. Not to mention that homosexuality and the subcultural structures within that culture blow most of these pathetically old stereotypes out of the water. 2- Assuming we live in a world of binary… Read more »
There was an article on this website once, and I’d like to quote (paraphrase) from it. It went something like:
Society puts pressure on men and women to conform to a certain role, which is not fair for either of them, but the pressures on women often sap them of more of their personal authenticity than their counterparts.
Having been a 19 year old college student, I can affirm it’s both fact and fiction.
Hi Editors,
This was meant as an answer to Erin’s last post, and I think I reposted it accordingly.
Will you delete this one, please?
Hi Erin and thanks for your answer. But what I keep asking (myself) is, when, how, why, does it transform from a mutual desire to an obligation and a chore? (When does “not today” become “not this month, or this year”…) I think that not a small part of the problem is what women are doing to themselves in this situation, because they have the “privilege” of defining what pressure is put on them. Ex. Say that one day I in some way express my desire for my spouse, who decline my interest, and I accept her decision. Later we… Read more »
This may be a bit of a late comment that is only tangentially related, but I found a good quote in my psych book that discusses the sexual image men have to live up to: “[M]any men learn to confuse feelings of intimacy and sex. In other words, if a man experiences strong feelings of connectedness, he is likely to interpret them as sexual feelings . . . sex may be the only way some men can allow themselves to feel intimately connected to another. Thus, men’s keen interest in sex may be driven, in part, by strong needs for… Read more »
Hi Waveski I love your quote: ✺“[M]any men learn to confuse feelings of intimacy and sex. In other words, if a man experiences strong feelings of connectedness, he is likely to interpret them as sexual feelings . . . sex may be the only way some men can allow themselves to feel intimately connected to another. Thus, men’s keen interest in sex may be driven, in part, by strong needs for emotional intimacy that don’t get satisfied in other ways.” – From “Psychology Applied to Modern Life: Adjustment in the 21st Century” by Weiten, Dunn, and Hammer page 356.”✺ YES!… Read more »
So in other words, what you (and others) are saying is really: “I know you want to have sex with me, but the only reason I won’t allow is just that I know you want to.”
Now come on! What kind of sick mindf%#k is that, really?!?
Not exactly. I think a lot of women are tired and bored sometimes by everything simply being reduced to sex. it becomes an obligication. A chore. But for the men that know that intimacy, relatoinships and sex is about so much more then just the end result, it allows women the freedom to be more expressive and open herself. When men put such a pressure on sex, and just sex, it can start to feel like an obligation you have to fulfil. But when a man is open to intimacy that may include things just kisisng, touching or sharing of… Read more »
Hi Erin and thanks for your answer. But what I keep asking (myself) is, when, how, why, does it transform from a mutual desire to an obligation and a chore? (When does “not today” become “not this month, or this year”…) I think that not a small part of the problem is what women are doing to themselves in this situation, because they have the “privilege” of defining what pressure is put on them. Ex. Say that one day I in some way express my desire for my spouse, who decline my interest, and I accept her decision. Later we… Read more »
Damn. Clever use of “..not a small part of the problem” vs “…A big part of the problem”. I digress. You bring up a really fair point FlyingKal. I never considered it from your side in that way. I think I’ve pretty much always assumed that if a man had an erection while we were even just making out, that he wanted sex automatically. The thing women are contending with is the pretty solid messages we receive about male sexuality. Erection = desire for sex. Men themselves often talk about how much sex they need or desire. Contrary to what… Read more »
Hi Erin and thank you for the kind words. I’m just glad if I can help to “broaden someone’s horizon”. I try to be as upfront as I can, but also write from my personal point of view, without assuming that everybody has the same experiences that I have. And it’s something I’ve been thinking about for myself, but I really don’t know to what degree this applies to other men either, How are we suppose to disginguish between the times when you are okay with having different forms of intimacy and even getting worked up vs wanting sex? As… Read more »
@Iben…
The problem Iben is that most women view a man’s desire for sex as “sex for the sake of sex” or he just want to “get his rock off.”
But this is really limited thinking Iben. Sex IS a way for a man (I speak for myself here) to emotionally connect with my girlfriend. It is just one of many ways. Often, sex with a woman reinforces that emotional connectedness.
So, I do not view this as “confusion.”
Hi Jules I hope you are well. For some men it is the only way to connect and be intimate. And even then it is no intimacy. To be penetrated does not feel like being intimate with another human being. Since my number is higher than 1, I have experienced both variety of men. Instead of blaming women,certain men ( not you) should look at themselves and how they relate to women. Do they express feelings openly with words,and actions that is not ” having sex”? How do they treat the woman during the week? Are they passionate and emotional… Read more »
Hi Jules No 2 today: A few more words. I wonder if we talk about different things. You write: ✺”The problem Iben is that most women view a man’s desire for sex as “sex for the sake of sex” or he just want to “get his rock off.”✺ I don’t think this is correct Jules. In my personal experience it was more that I knew it could mean a hundred different things ,but he never wanted to be open about what it was. Like he is nervous before a job interview and wants sex but never talk about the nerves… Read more »
How about asking both genders: ‘In an ideal world if every female/male that you fancied wanted to have sex with you (whether you are single or not) without any strings, would you sleep with them?’ ‘What is more important to you a monogamous relationship with an emotional connection or lots of sexual partners with a sexual connection?’ Perhaps a tailored question for the females: ‘If societal attitudes were different towards females with lots sexual partners, would you sleep with every male that you fancied and who fancied you?’ Interesting to ponder the types of questions that would represent the most… Read more »
@NK…. “I am now have a boyfriend and it is much easier to have one person and not having to organise sex every damn month right? Perhaps the guys think about it like that!” I agree with you on this point. But, my desire for a woman goes way beyond sex. Yes, sex IS important to me. However, as Erin mentioned above, the whole package matters: intelligence, personality, her values, life goals and aspirations, etc. That’s how I get into a woman emotionally. We all see with our eyes. We all like pretty and beautiful things. But all pretty and… Read more »
Women (and men) aren’t “things” Jules. The problem is that I do think a big part of men do think women are “things”, at least some of the time. The times when men want sexual satisfaction in a more base or possibly selfish way. The thing that makes this so tricky is that I think men (and women) have the ability to see certain women with respect at the same time they has the ability to objectfy other women. But I don’t think that belief is intrinsic to who men are. I think it’s a belief that’s been built buy… Read more »
@Julia Byrd – The whole package is definitely important and that is the difference between ‘having sex’ and ‘having a wife/LTR’ right? My comments about my personal experience are relating to the selfish need for sex though…. not the emotional connection that comes with. I don’t have one boyfriend just because I want sex only with him, I also want an emotional connection and I want to experience life with them and learn from them. I do not think that all men see women are just sex objects and that its easier with one lady, only the emotionally immature ones……… Read more »
NK, Oh I agree that a both men and women objectify women and see them as “things”. But I don’t think that is intrinsic to who we are. I think that’s learned. The point I am trying to make is that we do not need to think of women as “things” to see them sexually. Women do not need to be a buffett of tasty treats in the name of “sex” or “sexuality” or “novelty”.
@Erin.. “Women do not need to be a buffet of tasty treats in the name of “sex” or “sexuality” or “novelty.” I have a question for you: Would you not agree that in most instances the men whom women choose to satisfy their need for sex (as was the case with NK) are either superior in physique and/or good looking? Second question: If these men are superior in physique and/or looks, are they a commodity too? I mean the whole thing IS consensual. It really is no different than when a man seeks out a certain variety of women for… Read more »
Jules, I am not sure. I don’t really live in the casual hook up world and most of my friends are in committed relationships or are also not engaging in casual sex. I am sure there are some women that seek men out with superior good looks for casusal sex. Although I tend to personally think women are more fluid in their attraction where how a man treats a woman is a much bigger predictor of her willingnuss to have sex with him vs simply his physical looks. I think most women would rather have mind blowing sex with an… Read more »
@NK..
“But I also admit that everyone has sexual needs and that women shouldn’t be castrated for it.”
Neither should men. While I have never been a champion of casual sex, I fully understand the need…
Unfortunately, very few men enjoy the privilege of being able to pick up the phone a “call a friend” or do a casual hookup. That is reserved for only a few men whom women find sexually attractive.
@NK… “The whole package is definitely important and that is the difference between ‘having sex’ and ‘having a wife/LTR’ right?” WARNING! CYNICISM AHEAD. Do you mean “having sex” and “having sex with a wife/LTR” or “having a wife/LTR.”? I am bit confused. Honestly, I find very little difference in “having sex” and “having sex with say my ex wife.” I guess I have grown very cynical of sex and marriage. The sex is almost non existent which kills the emotional connection…..Hence, I am NOT interested in marriage nor would I ever do it again. I am not even convinced that… Read more »
@jules- not sure what your confused about – my commen is assuming that you will marry someone for reasons more than just a regular sex partner. Also your assumption that only the most attractive men are the ones with casual partners – I’ve heard this before. Often I find that if women are into casual sex then they don’t care that much about the male being super atteactive. This is an assumption I’ve heard often on the Internet. The assumption that only super alpha makes have this privilege. I wouldn’t describe the casualness I’ve seen as that dynamic. It certainly… Read more »
@NK…
” My comments about my personal experience are relating to the selfish need for sex though..”
Your need for sex is not selfish NK.
@Erin…
I agree with what you are saying. This is done by both sexes. I will concede that maybe men do it more when it comes to finding a sexual partner.
Btw, when I used “things”, I meant it generically (actually I was thinking of German chocolate cake!). I do not regard people as things. Simply trying to make the point that what is beautiful and looks good might be bad for you.
I know you meant “things” harmlessly. However, I tend to be very sensitive to the way we use language at times and while I know you did not mean to be degrading, sometimes the way we use langauge, even me, does infer something important. The fact is that women are infact often seen as “things”. So I was just trying to make a point about the word more then I believed you were trying to be derogatory. I didn’t think you were trying to be derogatory at all. But I would still like to see certain words avoided when referring… Read more »
some men (and women) are monogamous and others (men and women) are not.
RFK Jr. kept a secret diary of his 37 women, rated according to how far he got with them….it seems that he had a compulsion for chasing women and felt like sometimes he could just keep it under control….(perhaps this is genetic or social programming or whatever…Joe Kennedy, the patriarch, was famous for keeping a stable of women at his beck and call…and later, he would go to confession and cleanse his soul with whatever priest whose parish benefited from his charitable donations)…. His second wife, alcoholic and long-suffering, committed suicide….I don’t know her numbers…but I would guess that it… Read more »
@Leia…
“…he would go to confession and cleanse his soul with whatever priest whose parish benefited from his charitable donations)….”
Sound like the “indulgences” that Martin Luther opposed. Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, repudiated this corrupt process and was ex-communicated over his fight with the Catholic Church for doing so.
Based on what I’ve heard men say and how often men seem to respond to a wide range of socially accepted conventionally beautiful women, especially through a never ending reel of “new”/”novel” women through pornography; it does seem like what *wins* with men is novelty more then it is anything else. Which is sad to me but I am sure there are men that don’t think this is sad at all. It’s not easy being on the receiving end of the idea that the “variety” you offer is where your worth comes from to men then anything else. It’s a… Read more »
“In an ideal world, to me, men and women wouldn’t feel the need to fulfill every fleeting, shallow, desire that flew into their heads simply because they felt it. Unfortunetly, I’ve seen a progression in our society that seems to believe that each individual person needs every one of their needs fulfilled the second they “feel” it. When the truth is that when we become a society that individually become nothing but pleasure seekers for our own pleasure, we loose something important in how we treat others and ourselves. We forget that our “desires” are ultimately selfish. They are not… Read more »
THe biggest problem is that society favours monogamy when many people are polygamous so there will be a lot of desires that are being stifled to fit in with society’s Coupling rule. Some people do get bored over time and variety is needed but to fit in you still need to be a couple. Some couples get around this with open relationships, but the hard part is when you have 1 monogamous and 1 polygamous person each in a relationship together. There may be a biological instinct element at play, the spread the seed element for men and settling down… Read more »
Hi Shallow Hal
You write:
✺. Or are you saying we should be ashamed simply for our feelings?
For the allure of novelty?✺
It is interesting to see how some man bring up shame and use the world shaming when a woman expresses her view ,share her thoughts and feelings. Some men respond and say this is shaming.
I am sure it am effective way to make a woman shut up. But what kind of argument is this is a discussion ?
I think that was a fair question. What she seemed to be wondering about was the “the need to fulfill every fleeting, shallow, desire” and why, “when it comes to sex, we seem to think we are entitled to everything we fleetingly feel.” So, I read this and think of any of the attractive women I see while walking down the street. Many/most/nearly all of whom arouse fleeting and desires–call them shallow if you will. None of whom do I actually pursue or sleep with. And it makes me wonder, because I don’t think I’m unusual in noticing and thinking… Read more »
Hi Shallow Hal Erin expressed her feeling and told us something about her personal experiences with men. And maybe she referred to many men’s use of porn? You write: ✺” Because to call men shallow, for something that is basically intrinsic to them,✺” I don’t think it is easy for any of us to say with certainty what is sexually intrinsic for men and for women. All we have is lots of different hypotheses about human nature and sexuality. Not all men are alike ,nor are all women . Here on GMP we can read mens pain and hurt when… Read more »
@Iben.. Hello Iben! Of to Church, but I wanted to get this in before leaving. You stated, “Men tell us that they only want to marry women that had few earlier sex partners, and so on. Is it intrinsic sexually for women to suppress their sexuality from the age 0 till 25? Are men actually that uncomfortable with women’s sexuality and sexual desires ? Is it intrinsic sexually for all American women to desire the average man in a country where the majority of men are overweight or obese? Sexual desire is nothing special for men……” Yes, you are correct… Read more »
You are certainly right, it’s hard to say with any certainty what is sexually intrinsic to men or women. On the other hand, maybe there is a reason for the stereotype that men are attracted to variety? Maybe not everything people on this website criticize or like to try and debunk is a function of the media or society’s influence. As you point out, not all men or women are alike. Certainly some men will tell you they prefer to marry a women with few sexual partners. Others, myself included, feel very differently. I’d prefer someone with more than an… Read more »
Hi Shallow Hal You write: ✺”I do think though, that a lot of comments here indicate, that an emotional connection is often more important for many women in forming a sexual relationship than that emotional connection is for many men. I wonder why it seems like the approach of many women seems to be taken as the norm and as the model that men ought to emulate?”✺ I guess you talk about a relationship between a man and a woman. If both the man and the woman is happy with a sexual relationship without any emotional connection I can not… Read more »
Shallow Hal, I think human beings in general seek to fulfill fleeting desires, men and women. Do I think you checking out every woman sexually that you pass on the street and evaluating them simply on terms of sex is shallow? Yes. Does that mean your “bad” because you do this? No. Does that also mean as you ridiculously suggest that I want men to pull their eyes out? NO. I am actually really angered that my thoughts caused you to sway to such a far extreme simply because I said that as a woman, it SUCKS being wanted for… Read more »
I get that it can suck to be a woman. I’m sure you get that it can suck to be a man. In general, it can suck to be human. Paying for dinner when you’re out on a date is not quite the same as not evaluating a man’s social/economic standing. That you may make that evaluation–of his earning potential–doesn’t mean it’s the most important thing to you. A man could certainly say, “I’m broke and take me as I am,” and some women will. But I don’t think it’s at all unusual for many women to be motivated by… Read more »
Hi Shallow Hal You write: ✺” I do think many men would enjoy having lots of sexual partners–one reason for which is the appeal of novelty. I think it would be crazy for a woman to ignore this common need, if she is trying to be appealing to men.”✺ Can you give some examples on how ONE woman can satisfy this ” need” some men have for many sexual partners? To me it sounds like women have to develop multiple personalty disorders to satisfy men’s ” needs”. Not only must we make sure they get enough sex (that can be… Read more »
Are you asking me how a woman can introduce enough novelty into her sex life to keep her partner satisfied? There are countless books and articles on the subject. Or, ask him. I’m sure the answers would vary pretty widely.
Hi Shallow Hal You ask me: ✺”Are you asking me how a woman can introduce enough novelty into her sex life to keep her partner satisfied? There are countless books and articles on the subject. Or, ask him. I’m sure the answers would vary pretty widely.”✺ The answer is no. I do not ask that question. I just got the impression that you meant that men have “a need” for several women and not a ” need” for novelty. So I misunderstood you. Fortunately lots of men are so virile that they don’t depend on a steady steam of new… Read more »
Shallow Hal, I don’t think you do get it. I’m not saying it “sucks to be a woman”. I am saying that as a woman, this aspect of how men see us sucks. That’s not the same thing as saying it sucks to be a woman. I am left with the impression that you are glossing over all this. First you make a totally out there suggestion that I may want to pull men’s eyes out and now your saying that you get it “sucks” because hey, life sucks for all human beings. That is *not* the same thing as… Read more »
Iben, I thought much the same thing. I share my thoughts and feelings as a woman, who is VERY affected by the way men view me and other women pertaining to “variety”, and I’m told I simply want to shame men. I don’t want to shame men. I am tired of being devalued because men believe this woman over here and that woman over there should offer him something because they are different and give him the “novelty” of variety.
Shallow Hal, it’s not so much about feeling entitled to impose your desires onto others. It’s more of an entitlement to believe that every personal feeling or wish or whim we have should be met in some kind of way by something either human or technologically driven. I’ve even seen this behavior in myself and has I’ve become more mature, I realize that at times, I need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and not act on my feelings every time I feel them. Because the reality is that just because I feel something as a woman,… Read more »
@Erin…. Hi Erin!. You have written a very good piece. It is truly humanist in substance. As I look around at men, most want or will settle for you average woman. Then you have these men (knuckleheads really) who think they are entitled to the hot body, trophy woman….because of their socioeconomic status. And they tend to get these women. The problem for the woman is that there is a very high possibility that she will be traded in for a newer version in a decade or so. So, the blame/fault is with both the man and the woman. Since… Read more »
Jules – Thank you for the compliment. I’m not sure how it’s women’s fault when men trade them “up” for younger versions. And I know your heart is in the right place, but as I go through your post, I still see a lot of qualifying about women’s looks and how important being attractive is. I don’t think you will meet any woman, average or not, who doesn’t want their partner to be attracted to them. Even that woman who you said was not very attractive to you and proceeded to give her height and weight. I’m a package deal.… Read more »
Hi Erin, I’ve read figures that around 75% of all divorces are initiated by women, so taking that figure into account I’d be hard pressed to say that men are any more acting or feeling entitled to their fleeting desires of better prospects than women are. And also, there are more men than women in every age bracket up to 65-70 years. So women have greater pool of otions base on simple mathematics. And every man “selecting” a younger woman just means that there will be an additional (young) man (*) available for any woman . (* Assuming that there’s… Read more »
FlyingKal, first, I don’t even know why you are bringing divorce into the conversation. It has very little to do with what we are talking about. Why is it so hard in these discussion to get you guys to try and understand things that can be difficult for women? Very rarely do I ever hear, “Yeah, I get that Erin.” More often it’s “But this and this and this over here…” Do you agree or not that there is a level of commodifying women for their different physical attributes among thought mentalities of men and sexuality and society? Do you… Read more »
Hi Erin
Well said.
@Erin,…. I. “Do you agree or not that there is a level of commodifying women for their different physical attributes among thought mentalities of men and sexuality and society?” Yes Erin, I would agree with you on this point. It’s wrong. What if a man looks at the whole package in women but appreciates the fact that she has a nice rear? I do this. Am I guilty of commodifying women. I think not. I will never approach a woman just because she has a nice ass. II.” Do you understand how it’s difficult to experience and see men treat… Read more »
Jules, I always value your honesty. I am not sure I have a totally complete answer to your question. I don’t expect men to never think or say “Hey, nice rear”. I infact like compliments about my physical body from boyfriends. Plus, it is natural to feel attraction to physical attributes. The attraction part isn’t what I’m concerned about. It’s more the commodifying part. The commodifying of women may be a at times, a thin line that can be hard to distinguish. I think there is something different in you simply thinking a woman has a nice rear vs saying… Read more »
@Erin…
Thank you. We are all in this together. I want men and women to create a better environment that is healthy.
Hi Erin, First of all, I must have written this reply 4 or 5 times yesterday, but all got lost due to the page auto-refresh or me forgetting to enter my name or E-mail. So on behalf of the late response, I apologize for being stupid… 😉 Now, why do I bring divorce into the conversation? You wrote It’s a difficult thing to come to terms with as a woman. It’s a very real fear for woman that live in a world that is always trading them in and trading them up all the time for what men believe are… Read more »
I hate auto-refersh! So frustrating Flyng Kal. I’ve been a causality of it myself. Maybe you have a point FlyingKal. But is every couple that gets divorced looking to “trade in” for the bigger deal? Or are they simply unhappy and no longer know how to make it work? I don’t think divorce itself automatically means that either partners wants to “trade up”. However, repeatidly seeing men of all social and economic levels pick younger mates does infact seem like a clear reflection of “trading up”. Or hearing about me ntalking about women how they are only really good between… Read more »
Hi Erin, and thanks for the response. No I don’t think that every couple getting divorced is because one or both partners are looking to trade up. I was looking the oher way, that the ones who are trading up, actually do get out of their current relationship first. I mean, if you get a new partner when you’re single, you aren’t actually “trading”. Or maybe it’s just me… Anyway, I can sympathize with your point. I just don’t think it’s all that common for eveyone and their uncle to routinely get a new 20-something girlfriend. And also that it’s… Read more »
I don’t think I ever suggested that commodifying doesn’t go both ways. I really dislike arguments that fall along the lines of, “it goes both ways”. Not because it’s not infact true but because it doesn’t require either party to consider one side over the other for that moment in time. And I think it’s important to consider what one party goes through for one moment of time. Also, I also don’t think all men are trading in for 20-something girlfriends. I do think that men, even when they have partners, are still largely objectfying women based on age, looking… Read more »
@FlyingKal..
One way to deal with auto refresh is to periodically copy your reply to Word Pad or Word. If you know it is going to be a lengthy reply, I would just type on the Word Pad and copy/Paste to GMP.
I do that too. Plus it helps with my terrible spelling or my tendency to simply type incorrectly. Sometimes the speed at which I try to get something out overrides me good grammar and sentence structure.
Hi Jules,
Yeah, I usually do that (type in Word, or just copy the text now and then while I’m writing).
But sometimes you just don’t think about it. 🙂
“In the next month”!? Don’t you think the brevity of the window is narrowing stuff down a bit. How could more than one in a month be aspirational; I’m trying to imagine someone aspiring to have more than one sexual partner in the next month: “Well, ideally I’d like to have met someone, slept with them and got bored and moved on to someone else in roughly a week, so I’m thinking about four?” – who would aspire to have more than one sexual partner in the space of a month? Even someone with a Casanova complex is surely thinking… Read more »
I have a pretty high number, but I’m 68. Many of these happened when I was in my 30s and 40s. But the tendency has continued down into my late 60s. I certainly don’t like piling up partners in a short timespan. I do like to have a relationship, not empty sex. Many times it’s been something like the “seven year itch” with a long term partner. I did like the sexual culture (on the West Coast) of the 60s-70s, where casual massages, or even making out didn’t necessarily lead to intercourse, but often did. The current period strikes me… Read more »
Hi FlyingKla
I usually misunderstand you. Sorry about that.
Some single men fall in love with a chocolate even before they have taste her or eaten her.
So they promise their beloved chocolate they will never eat another chocolate as long as she lives. They will only eat her.
And some eat only one chocolate because God says eat only one chocolate and be content with that one.
In UK the median numbers of chocolate eaten at age 20-21 is today around 9-10.
They are the leading chocolate eaters in Europe.
Iben,
You crack me up!
@Iben…
Hello Iben!
So, are you saying that in the UK, the median number of chocolate (partners) eaten at age 20-21 is between 9-10?
Btw, I love dark chocolate with almonds:)
Hi Jules
I am sorry I don’t have the reference to that number. I read The Guardian daily,so maybe I saw it there.
Hi Iben,
Some single men fall in love with a chocolate even before they have taste her or eaten her.
So they promise their beloved chocolate they will never eat another chocolate as long as she lives. They will only eat her.
Yes, but I guess that promise is rarely kept unless it’s reciprocated. Or what do you think?
Hi FlyingKal
🙂
Personally, I’d like to see the average sexual partner count rise. It is too low as it stands. There is far too much sexual scarcity going on and I don’t like it one bit. Single people of the world are not getting enough sexual exercise and same goes for those married for longer periods of time (speaking of averages here). I suggest a sexual surrogate / volunteer government programs be established (maybe with copay funding), to assist in increasing the sexual experience of our overall population – targeting those that are currently below average and desire more sexual experience. I… Read more »
Agreed. A wise saying from decades back is
“What the world needs most is a lot less fighting and a lot more fucking.”
Hi Andrew
You seem to be well qualified evaluate if Jules( here on this thread) hypotheses about American women and men are correct or simply an expression of his personal experience with women when he writes:
“. However, for
90% of men the challenge is simply to get ANY chocolate! On a small, very small, percent of
men get to behave like women”
As a Scandinavian I am convinced that 90% of Scandinavian men don’t have such a terrible fate.
But am not qualified to tell.
NO!
Concerning “direct adult supervision” for 18 and 19-year-olds, I want everyone to keep this wording in mind the next time they complain about college/university hopefuls being accompanied by their parents for orientations and the like. Last I checked, 18 years of age is considered adult. If we cannot view those in this age bracket as such, something in our culture seriously needs to change.
I would prefer strong love and one partner, but failing that I do fantasize about multiple partners at a time, 3somes, 4somes, my lust is pretty “slutty” but I dunno if I’d want that in reality. It’d be fun to have a hedonistic sex romp with a variety of women and have a world with no STI’s, 100% contraceptives and no stigmas where those that want it could engage in sexual blissful experiences however they want. If that existed I probably would (if possible) have sex with quite a variety of partners if I wasn’t in love or had a… Read more »
“Yet only 25% of these guys say they want two or more partners in the next month.”
What about men who would want more than 1 partner in their whole LIFETIME? I am one of those. Married my first Girlfriend and never been intimate with another before or since.. Lived at home while at Uni.
At 53, I can see the chocolates every day but can’t taste any. The question of “what do they taste like” is unbearable. I love my wife but the effect this sense of failure has on my self esteem is enormous.
Toby, You’re not alone out there. I’ve felt exactly the same way and some days still do. It’s easy to tell a guy to just “think” himself past it, but the physical attraction and desire for different chocolates is undeniable. Within marriage, the best option is to find ways to actually talk about it with your wife. There are ways to do this without making her feel threatened, but loved and desired. You want more variety, I would guess. More passion. If talking about it makes her crazy (also common), then there are other ways to start shifting her mind… Read more »
The question makes me think about a brand new box of assorted chocolates. There is a tingly anticipation and thrill at the prospect of popping one of those chocolates in your mouth. You can’t wait. Then you do. It is SOOO good. You can’t wait to try another. Then another. Then one, two, three more. Then it starts to taste the same. And your stomach hurts. And you’re not sure why you just did it. But the memory was good. Probably won’t do it again. My 50ish something, single college roommate buddy just finished what he called the summer of… Read more »
Steve,
That’s a fabulous analogy; I might have to use it in another piece. I also think it’s a good description of what happens for many guys, although they don’t need to have multiple partners in a single year to get to that conclusion.
As for your friend, well, that’s not (really) my business.
I totally get the analogy. However I don’t think it applies to the issue being discussed.
It isn’t about indulging and overdoing it. If college is like a box of assorted chocolates, then what make anyone (man or woman) restrict themselves to only one piece of chocolate, even before they’ve tried out a single one?
Hi FlyingKal
You write:
✺”then what make anyone (man or woman) restrict themselves to only one piece of
chocolate, even before they’ve tried out a single one?”✺
We have a word for it. It is called LOVE.
Hi Iben,
It was my understanding that he was mainly talking about single guys.
But you mean that all those guys are already in love with someone, although they haven’t actually started the relationship yet? Or maybe even not talked to the “object of their desire”, like, ever?
@Steve,
“The question makes me think about a brand new box of assorted chocolates.
There is a tingly anticipation and thrill at the prospect of popping one of those chocolates in your mouth. You can’t wait. Then you do. It is SOOO good. You can’t wait to try another. Then another.
Then one, two, three more.”
I think this is the general behavior for many women. The serial dating thingy. However, for 90% of men the challenge is simply to get ANY chocolate! On a small, very small, percent of men get to behave like women.
Thank you for this.
You’re welcome S. Mass.
Why is this discussion male specific?
Again, it isn’t a question of 2 dozen guys having sex with the only woman in their neighborhood who has a healthy libido….
Women want to get laid too… Have you seen me? Even I got it wet fairly frequently.
Alastair is right– Most people want to have sex with as many people as it will take to find someone w/ whom they’d like to stick with (for a while).
Hi J.A.,
This discussion is male specific because I’m trying to debunk the stereotype that says guys want to sleep with as many people as they can. I chose a male-specific response to a male-specific stereotype.
There are definitely folks out there – male, female, & other – who are just trying to get laid. But they’re the minority, not the majority.
I am not sure that the driving motivations of male promiscuity are best uncovered by such questions. In an ideal world, the overwhelming majority of men would probably only want one partner. However, we don’t live in an ideal world. It is the choices of an unideal world that are more revealing. If you had a committed and loving sexual partner but a more attractive and willing person came along, would you be prepared to leave your existing partner for him/her? If no single partner could fulfil all of your sexual appetites, would you still be prepared to restrict yourself… Read more »
Hi Alastair,
I like your questions. Interpreting research questions “backwards” is always a little dangerous, but I think the results I’ve summarized here suggest that most guys are posing exactly the kinds of questions you ask. They’re not just sleeping around randomly, but rather are being rather deliberate in their choices, contrary to stereotype.
The best question to understand how deliberate men are being in their choices would be to ask, “How many women have you wished you could sleep with in the last year, that you would have slept with if she’d been willing and available?” I do agree with your larger point, that male promiscuity is quite overstated in general. However, I believe the picture that you’ve presented above has quite understated it. I believe that Alastair very correctly summarized: “In an ideal world, the overwhelming majority of men would want only one partner, but this person would have to be an… Read more »
Hi Monica,
I’m with you when you say most relationships are non-ideal and I, too, like Alastair’s description. And I agree that college guys are in a great position for finding a partner. But the stats say that only a minority are promiscuous, and thus the charge thta “guys would have more sex if they could” is not an accurate claim.
And what is that based on? Was the question asked to college-age males in those words–“would you like to have more sex if you could?” Because I’ve never met a man of any age, and darn few women, who would answer No to that.
Hi Andrew, I guess the answer to this “surprising” 25%-result, is that most guys are more concerned about getting sex at all. And it that case the frequency, variety and quality of the sex itself is more important than the number of partners to have it with. (They may also have bought into the idea that sex in the long term is better with a steady longterm partner.) And on a side note: about 15 to 20% of guys say they’ve had three or more partners in the last year (clip) They’re also talking about three partners in one year,… Read more »
Hi FlyingKal, I get where you’re coming from, but I don’t think it’s enough to say they’re just worried about getting sex at all. As in the article, if that were the only goal, I think they could find sex someway (drunken hookup, high schooler, sex worker, etc.). I think the real focus for most guys is desire for sex in a relationship context, not just sex. I see your point about the other. I think thta might be better written as “If we assume a guy has 3 partners – the minimum to be in the top 20% –… Read more »
Andrew,
I don’t agree that the data necessarily support desire for sex in a relationship context, and this doesn’t match my experience of what many guys want.
They do want sex within a “socially acceptable” context. Even guys that are quite desperate for sex would not consider having sex with a high schooler or prostitute, or in other ways that are seen as very socially inhibited. Nobody wants to think of themselves as so desperate for sex that they’ll pay for it or take advantage of a drunk woman or very young girl to get it.
HI Monica,
Although I’ve argued that guys want relationships in other articles, I’ve not made that argument here. These studies don’t really point to relationships. But they do indicate that guys aren’t particularly interested in having sex with lots of different partners (regardless of the type of relationship).
I agree that (most) guys prefer a socially acceptable context for sex. But when folks say things like “guys would have more partners if they could,” they’re not specifying any context whatsoever. And that’s the fiction I was attempting to debunk.
Hi Andrew and thanks for the answer, I get where you’re coming from, but I don’t think it’s enough to say they’re just worried about getting sex at all. As in the article, if that were the only goal, I think they could find sex someway (drunken hookup, high schooler, sex worker, etc.). I think the real focus for most guys is desire for sex in a relationship context, not just sex. Yes, I guess it’s reassuring to see that most guys actually are concerned to “achieve” sex in a legal, consentual, and socially accepted way… But maybe the desire… Read more »