“The age of chivalry is never past, so long as there is a wrong left unredressed on earth.”
“Some say that the age of chivalry is past, that the spirit of romance is dead. The age of chivalry is never past, so long as there is a wrong left unredressed on earth.” -Charles Kingsley
Introduction
After several conversations with other members of GMP, I decided to post a series of articles based on some information I am currently developing in my own writing project. Having already dealt with the topic in another article, I feel there is a great deal of interest and conflicting opinions as to what Chivalry is, how it relates to Gentlemanly behavior, and if it is even needed. I hope this series is of your interest and provides enough room for discussion where everyone, including myself, can learn from.
What is Chivalry anyway?
We have heard time and time again that Chivalry is dead and it was Feminism who killed it. Let’s start with the basics so we can all be on the same page:
Chiv·al·ry [shívvəlree] (n)
1. the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, esp courage, honour, justice, and a readiness to help the weak
2. courteous behaviour, esp towards women
3. the medieval system and principles of knighthood
Chivalry is a code of conduct originating from the ideals of the Knight’s military tradition. As a privileged class, Knights made an oath to help others, following certain guidelines based on their Order. In theory, the two main focuses of Chivalry are the fight for what’s “Just” and to place the needs of others above their own comforts. It wasn’t about having your pinky up while drinking tea or knowing the proper way to say “Good Day, Madame.” It was about Self-Discipline, Courtesy, Honor, Honesty, Charity, and the Protection of the underprivileged. At its core, Chivalry is nothing more than the martial charity of creating a safe environment for those under your protection. Chivalry is seen as a “manly” code because a knight had to protect women from the evils of unchivalrous men in a time when kidnapping and raping were acceptable marriage proposals.
“Should a man fear being a male chauvinist if he had the audacity to open a door for a lady? Is a man who offers his seat on a bus proving he is a misogynist pig? Have the ideals of gender equality trumped traditional civility?”
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Let me make one point abundantly clear, Men don’t have to be chivalrous if they don’t want to. The lack of Chivalry doesn’t make anyone less of a man. This also means that a woman shouldn’t expect to be treated chivalrously by all men or that they should feel offended if the man does not behave that way. Chivalry is a personal choice; it’s an oath that must be given full heartedly.
Does Chivalry need a eulogy?
And that is where the conundrum comes into play. People tend to state that they see chivalrous acts less and less often, frequently citing the Women’s Liberation Movement as the cause of that trend. Did Feminism kill Chivalry? Was Chivalry something used by men to demean women to a degree where it was needed to be stomped out by the militant feminist boots? Should a man fear being a male chauvinist if he had the audacity to open a door for a lady? Is a man who offers his seat in a bus proving he is a misogynist pig? Have the ideals of gender equality trumped traditional civility? Or have men gotten tired of being treated as having a second rate value when compared to a woman? Have men simply become jaded with the fact that women don’t need them to survive or for protection?
The internet is littered with articles about “keep Chivalry alive” or lists of “Gentlemanly traits” written by both men and women. As entertaining as these articles are, the comments left by previous readers are even more enlightening into the social perspective of Chivalry. If Feminism killed Chivalry, why is it that most women state how they appreciate a genuine Gentleman while most of the hostile reactions come from men? Sure, there are women who voiced complaints and the men who gave a positive comment, but those are actually the exceptions. What was the main cause for trolling by both genders?
The complaint from most women was of men thinking they could “buy” a lady with chivalrous behavior or that Chivalry was based on the idea that a woman could not do anything without a man’s help. Ladies, let me make this clear: Any action based on ulterior motives is not Chivalrous. Men who “Act like a gentleman” or behave Chivalrous because “women love gentlemen” are not true gentlemen. A man is chivalrous because he expects it from himself, and not because he expects payment in return or because women expect said behavior from him. His chivalrous actions are not because he doesn’t think a woman can’t do something, but rather because he thinks she shouldn’t have to.
Gender equality was/is the main reason most men state against Chivalry. They feel that Women’s Liberation released them from the chains of Chivalry because we are now equal in the eyes of society. The entire concept of “Women first” denotes the idea that men were disposable and a woman’s life is more valuable. Men also complain how women would use Feminism or expect Chivalry, switching between concepts, depending on what was convenient at the time. I am the first to admit there are women out there who behave that way.
Why should we even keep Chivalry alive?
All these arguments stated previously against Chivalry are valid and need to be considered before you even try to wear a Gentleman’s shoes, so why even keep Chivalry alive? There are men who still think they can buy a woman’s interest with manners and there are women who use their gender to take advantage of the men. I am not saying that either men or women have it easy and I don’t want anyone to think I am minimizing either situation. In reality we are far from real gender equality or equity:
- Women only make up, on average, about one fourth of all positions of Political and Economic power, even if they are half of the population.
- Women get paid one fifth less than a man for same work. Ironically if a woman has kids, she will get paid even less on average. Apparently a penis is worth one fifth of a man’s value. Not really sure how to interpret that one.
- Laws that deal exclusively on women’s health and reproductive options are developed by a male dominated legal system.
Besides the basic breakdown of social inequality, we have to consider the reality of violence against women in the USA, especially violent acts done by the very men who are supposed to provide a safe environment for them.
- Out of every three women murdered, one was killed by their spouse.
- Three women are murdered by their significant other every day.
- For every five women out there, one will be raped during their lifetime, usually while being in their teens or twenties.
- For every ten high school girls, one will be date raped.
- In more than half of all sexual assault cases, the assailant is someone the woman knows.
- Every fifteen seconds another woman is battered by their spouse.
By the time you got to this point in the article it is possible that one woman was killed, forty women were battered by their spouse, 5 women were raped, 3 of them by men who they knew and possibly even trust. Take a moment to let this sink in. Just to season up the mix we need to add the catcalls on the streets, creepy innuendos at work or school, and the generalized rape culture women have to endure every single day.
“We are the random stranger who stopped to help a woman when she had a flat in a rainy day. We are the Dad who stepped up for the child a deadbeat dad left behind.”
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All abuse is wrong, but when this abuse comes from the very person who should make you feel safe it goes to an entirely different level. I don’t want anyone to think I am “Man Bashing,” but statistically the biggest threats women have are men, while the biggest threats men have are…also men. Guess men and women have more in common than I thought.
Now, the Chivalrous, the Gentleman, and the Caballero will understand how privileged he is and accept the obligation to compensate for those rotten apples who give men a bad name. He will fight against the real inequality that exists between the genders.
As men who follow the Code of Chivalry, We choose to step up for all those men who have failed to do so. We will strive to provide an environment where anyone can feel safe and secure. We are the friend who walked the girl home just to make sure she got there safely. We are the neighbor who got involved in a domestic dispute and stood guard till the cops arrived. We are the random stranger who stopped to help a woman when she had a flat in a rainy day. We are the Dad who stepped up for the child a deadbeat dad left behind. We are the husband who hid his tears with a smile, just to give his wife the comfort that everything will be okay. People might say that Chivalry is dead. I think that Chivalry is alive, thriving, and is needed now more than ever.
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on tthe web. You certainly realize how to brinng aan issue to light and make it important.
A lot more people have to check this out and understand this side of tthe story.
I was surprised that you’re not more popular because you mostt certainly hav the gift.
@ Maryangie Carmona “wish to write about the psychological effects of PMS in women, then, under your view, not only should I write about how it affects woman, but also how does it affects the men around me, right?” But if a woman wrote an article about the effects of a woman’s PMS on the men around them, wouldn’t you expect that she would mention it’s effects on women since it’s probably not the PMS, but how the woman deals with it that is impacting the men. If that was left out of the article, would you bring it up… Read more »
It seems we may need to address another silencing technique used almost exclusively against men on a site for men to figure out what it means to be a good man. That is this is about men. Don’t bring up or be concerned with what women do. Good men should raise their daughters as well as their sons. When we talk about abused men, good men should be concerned with all victims of abuse. When we talk about abusive women, good men should be concerned about stopping all perpetrators of abuse. When we talk about how women treat men, good… Read more »
You are confronted with statistics about things women face and your only response is to talk about things men face instead. Who exactly is trying to silence who here.
@ Erin
GMP gave Eduardo an entire article. I doubt very much that his point of view is being silenced. You might want to try reading my comment next time before you reply. I’m referring to comments made by others that suggest that specific avenues of conversation are inconsistent with the mission of GMP. Conversations about “things men face” is precisely what they object to. That’s why they’re listed as well as the reasons why they are relevant to the site.
“■Women only make up, on average, about one fourth of all positions of Political and Economic power, even if they are half of the population. This is a basic frontman fallacy argument that someone in your group is better at deciding what is best for you and will always do what is best for you because you share ONE common trait. After all, I would be willing to bet every cent I own that feminists would much rather have Barack Obama or Bill Clinton as their president instead of Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachman. ■Women get paid one fifth less… Read more »
I actually have been avoiding participating in some of the debate that has occurred in the article, since as the author, my opinion is completely bias. In this case, I will actually comment, since the aspect discussed is cold facts, not subjective documentation. I will also take the time to clarify some aspects. On the first one, on a government based on the idea that it represents its people, there should be statistically the same number of women and men if everyone has the same opportunities to be a part of it. This same ratio should be for race and… Read more »
oh…and to clarify that last point. I would love to help her is the article on ladies, only if she asked for help.
I never, would never, or have even considered myself as understanding women. Then again, I can’t understand most men out there either.
Absolutely, definitely not. The two things are not even remotely comparable. Rape culture in this form is a way of making all men guilty for the actions of a few.
This is the kind of mindset that results in all Muslims being condemned on the back of the actions of several terrorists.
Or the mentality that resulted in Muslims educating each others about the dangers of fundamentalism and educating non-Muslims on the truth about the religion to achieve more tolerance.
No individual Muslim has any responsibility to do that, just like no individual man does. You cannot assume that if one member out of a group of 1.5 billion and 3.5 billion respectively isn’t making overtures on behalf of their group then they can blamed as part of the problem – especially not on the basis of tiny minorities like terrorists and abusers.
Oirish, I can offer this as an explanation, other than that I would just agree to disagree. As a minority, I realize that my actions reflect directly on every other Latino Man. People do not view me as “me alone” without any reference or repercussion to the rest of us. Society does generalize, for good or bad. So every time I mentor Latino boys, I make sure that they understand how their actions reflect on the rest of us, the same way I get pissed I see some “Cholo” giving the rest of us a bad name. I try to… Read more »
Some of us prefer to challenge that in-group bias, Eduardo. Irrespective of who it applies to.
Others, apparently, buy into it.
@ Eduardo García “You are the father who teaches by example his son on how to treat a woman. You are the father who teaches his daughter how a man is supposed to treat her. You teach your friends how they should talk about girls. You are the society that thinks “she was asking for it” when ignore the statistics. We live in sad times when we accept that 1 in 5 women women will be raped, and our only reply is “well I didn’t rape her”. Guess what? Every time you encurage the rape culture, you helped rape her!”… Read more »
@ Eduardo García Another thing is that women kill men much more often than they kill women so like you said I guess men and women have more in common than thought. And before you start complaining about you’re complaining about what women are doing, let me point out that you by your actions are teaching your daughters how to treat men. Don’t we as men have a responsibility to raise our daughters too? When you say that men should not critique how women treat men in society on GMP, it seems that you don’t. Are you surprised that they’re… Read more »
You decided to respond to the statistic about how 1 in 5 women are raped by your own statistic about how men. This tells me that you believe talking about the things that happen to men directly is more important than talking about the things that happen to women. And that is the exact problem I see around here time and time again. An unwillingness to discuss the merits of the things women deal with without someone believing discussion about women marginilizes men somehow. Or suggests that men don’t suffer things. What does the fact that 1-5 women are raped… Read more »
Eduardo initially made reference in his article to men being attacked by men (you know, something that happens to men) to show the similarity between that and women being attacked by men. Why are you not extending that criticism to Eduardo? He is talking about things that affect men as well. So why are you criticising John for responding in the terms Eduardo set out? This is, yet again, why the sorts of points we’re making are not derailing. You cannot bring these things up in an article and then criticise people who are making reference to them in their… Read more »
@ Erin You’re a very passionate person. I don’t mean that in a mean way. A lot of guys are taught to look at things critically or clinically. That’s why your voice is important to the conversation. Sometimes guys especially in my age group sometimes forget the human aspect of things in favor of the logic aspect of things. There is a test on the interwebs sometimes incorporated by feminists, sometimes incorporated by MRAs, but it’s used to determine “fairness”. The concept simply put is reverse the genders and see if the argument still holds. I did not select what… Read more »
I had planned to step away from this discussion, but there have been some comments with some implications that I think need to be addressed. That is the suggestion that men should refrain from making certain comments or broaching certain subject matter on specific threads. I’ve always been an advocate for open discussion defending both men and especially women’s ability to speak on these boards. I say especially women because at times a man has attempted to silence a woman by stating that this is a men’s site, etc. Women’s voices are important and I would and am not suggesting… Read more »
@ Erin There are also articles on GMP were men are criticized for telling women to smile. When asked what is so onerous about giving up a smile, one complaint I hear is women hear that often. How many articles do you see where men are told they have modify behavior to accommodate a woman’s needs? Walk down the other side of the street so you’re not walking behind a woman at night. Wait for the next elevator so she’s not in there alone with a man. You shouldn’t talk to her because she doesn’t owe you her time, etc.… Read more »
Yeah, if that was “unpaid emotional labour” as Charlie Glickman(?) called it, then what is chivalry?
John, there is a huge difference between a man dictating “Smile”, and a woman dictating, “Open the door for me”; vs men opening doors out of being chivalrous (and women enjoying it) and women smiling to be genuine warm and friendly to a man (and men enjoying that). I take no offense from a man saying, “It’s really amazing when a woman smiles at me.” Both sides feel unheard, marginalized and unacknowledged. And that is the core problem. I understand that’s how a lot of men feel. Women feel the same EXACT way. It’s easy to get other women to… Read more »
“The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone”
Patrick Henry
“A man is chivalrous because he expects that behavior from himself….” I was pleasantly surprised when I held out my hand to my surgeon one week post-op and he immediately zoomed over and bent his head down close to mine so that we could do that European cheek-to-cheek greeting (I did not kiss his cheek, only the air kiss noise)….I really only intended to shake his hand, so I was shocked that he put his cheek so close to mine…it reminded me that he was from a different world from mine (more courtly and more old world)….[what I usually get… Read more »
I apologize if I insulted anyone, it was not my intent. I was merely expressing my opinion of how the men arguiong against this article about Chivalry sounds to me. I am not particularly articulate and it was the closest assosiation I could think of. Like most people it is merely my opinion and I hold out the posibility that I could be wrong. I am the father of 4 daughters and I should hope that if they are ever in trouble a gentleman will take the time to stop and help them without holding the perceived insults of “feminists”… Read more »
Hi Eduardo, thank you for taking on a difficult subject. I very much liked what you expressed in your article. When I was younger, I very much wanted men specifically to treat me a certain way because I I believed that if they didn’t, they didn’t think I was pretty enough or worthy enough to care about. That was born out of my own insecurity. Older and wiser now, I do not hold an expectations that anyone should do things for me to prove my worth to them. It’s wonderful to let go of the idea of “expectations” because when… Read more »
@ Erin
This is a wonderful comment. Seriously, you should submit it as an article for the love of men.
John – it appears that you very much enjoyed how I focused specifically on men.
I think it’s nice to give men special acknowledgement. I could have listed all the nice things women have done for me too, so that I would be keeping all things equal, but I wanted to focus on the great things men have done for me specifically. I hope you can see here that it really benefits us sometimes to take the time to acknowledge men specifically…or women specifically.
@ Erin
In large part I enjoyed it because it was truly the kindness of men. Unless I misinterpreted something, they didn’t do it because X, Y, and Z. I remember a story of a boy who left a bill for his mom under her dinner plate for cleaning my room 50 cents, washing the dishes 50 cents, etc. The next day at dinner he sees money stacked on top of a bill by his plate. The bill said for cooking dinner 0 for taking care of you when you were sick 0, etc.. The total was zero.
John, you seem to be a big supporter of using the word “people” vs identifying men or women seperately. Yet you specifically enjoyed that I praised men specifically. I know this because you said: “….an article for the love of men.” I also know this based on having seen the way you respond to articles on GMP about men and women. I suspect you enjoyed it because it specifically focused on men and I didn’t feel the need to qualify all the nice women in my life at the same exact time I qualified the nice men as some ongoing… Read more »
@ Erin
“I suspect you enjoyed it because it specifically focused on men”
You can suspect or you can listen. I think I’ll withdraw from the discussion. As I told Danny, I think I understand the side of the people exposing chivalry. That is one thing I try to do even when I disagree. I suspect we won’t agree or convince each other and that’s fine.
I listen very well John. Which is why I, just like, believe the things I do. I’ve paid pretty close attention to your posts.
Mr. Garcia, thank you for the article. I think it is timely and pertinent. I am a stay at home dad while my wife works and I love being able to spend time with my daughter. I was raised to be Chivalrous and all the men on here arguing against your points sound bitter and lost. Like the little boy who gets angry and takes his toys to go home. I do not see the conflict between being “chivalrous” and being a modern man. I look forward to your next article.
You’re shaming people you disagree with by equating them to children, and you think they’re bitter and lost?
…and all the men on here arguing against your points sound bitter and lost. Like the little boy who gets angry and takes his toys to go home….
This is a pretty common ambiguous response to people who disagree with things. Don’t really say anything and just toss a few insults and associations and hope it stands on it’s own.
How exactly does disagreeing with the writer’s points indicate bitterness and loss?
@Douglas Miller, I agree with your thoughts. I don’t understand what all the fuss is about. As a woman, what I get from this article is: 1 – Know where does the term ‘chivalry’ comes from, what it meant in its origin, and how Modern Men would apply it today. I don’t think the purpose is to return to that ‘role’, but to take the positive aspects and adjust it to the present days. 2 – That being chivalrous is not expected nor you have to act that way expecting to gain something from it. It can be compared to… Read more »
@ Maryangie Carmona “I don’t understand what all the fuss is about.” “All abuse is wrong, but when this abuse comes from the very person who should make you feel safe it goes to an entirely different level. I don’t want anyone to think I am “Man Bashing,” but statistically the biggest threats women have are men, while the biggest threats men have are…also men. Guess men and women have more in common than I thought. Now, the Chivalrous, the Gentleman, and the Caballero will understand how privileged he is and accept the obligation to compensate for those rotten apples… Read more »
Maryangie Carmona, Thanks for your reply/post. You are much more articulate than I. I understand that abuse can go both ways but I tend to hold the abuser responsible, not the gender of the person doing the abusing. I feel that being a gentleman/cabbalero is not just about men towards women. It is the way that I carry myself, my attitude, the small acts of kindness towards others who need help. I hold doors for both men and women, not just because it is polite but the logistics of someone coming up closely behind you makes sense instead of letting… Read more »
Wow Douglas. Thank you for sharing. I would say that was pretty gosh darn articulate.
To those that think we should separate gender from Chivalry… When we reach true equity between women and men, then we can separate it. I would like to go even further with this aspect, as we owe to all groups that are at a social disadvantage, be it because of Race, Ethnicity, or Sexual orientation. Till there is a real equity, we have a lot of work to do. Note: A quick lesson on the difference between Equality and Equity. Equality is giving everyone the exactly same pair of shoes. Only the people with the “right” foot size will benefit… Read more »
Except men and women are unequal in different ways – but you are appealing to old gender norms of chivalry where men are expected to help women, without any kind of reciprocal expectation.
How is it reasonable to expect men (as men) to help women, but not to expect women (as women) to help men in the same fashion with their issues? You do not solve gender inequality by reinforcing the same norms that got us into this mess in the first place.
What do you mean, women weren’t expected to help under chivalry? They were expected to bear their husband an heir; they were involved in the management of the household or the estate; they were hostesses and social ambassadors, representing their family/estate in public and in the royal court. Even fast-forwarding to the mid-20th century when some form of chivalry was still commonplace, women had their roles to play to support their men and their families. Sure, they weren’t expected to take up a sword or lay down their jackets over a mud puddle, but it’s not like men were 100%… Read more »
What do you mean, women weren’t expected to help under chivalry? I’m not referring to history. I’m referring to what Eduardo is apparently recommending now, and the general tenor of popular gender activism today. I made that earlier comment of mine before I saw your informative post on the reciprocal female norms that went along with chivalry in the past. (And yes, I am talking about macroscale societal issues. Male suicide rates, rape of men, body issues etc.) I’m taking issue with a couple of things – firstly, that this is a gendered standard that surely must be classed as… Read more »
Very much agreed OirishM.
@ OirishM I remember making a similar argument on the post about affirmative action for male poets. We’ll have different sports teams for men and women because men are generally bigger, faster, and stronger and women can’t compete, but in areas where women / girls tend to generally outperform men / boys, we can’t have separate competitions. I hear the arguments that isn’t it better to have girls exercising and moving around for health and if giving them athletic opportunities or even different facilities as men / boys encourages them to do so, isn’t it justified? Make the same argument… Read more »
“Note: A quick lesson on the difference between Equality and Equity.
Equality is giving everyone the exactly same pair of shoes. Only the people with the “right” foot size will benefit from the shoes, but no one can really complain about being “left” out. Equity is about giving everyone the actual size shoe they need, that way you don’t leave anyone out, intentionally or not, and nobody is at an advantage just for being born with the right foot size.”
That’s a perfect anology.
So….we need to overturn old gender roles by appealing to old gender roles? How is that supposed to work? No. Don’t appeal to my gender to insist that I have some kind moral responsibility to help women. I have a moral responsibility to help everyone because it is the right thing to do, not because chivalry! This article also seems very unaware of the fact that it is generally acceptable to demand that men help solve women’s issues (even to feminists – I would regard chivalry as part of patriarchy and yet they seem to have no trouble appealing to… Read more »
It works, by seeing that we can incorporate traditional roles into our lives without feeling marginalized or marginalizing others. Gender is a wonderful thing. I am proud to be a woman. I think all people should show respect and consideration for each other. I open doors for women, men, children..the whole yoke. But It is very nice when a man opens a door for me. It speaks to something deep and intrinsic inside me as a woman. And while I enjoy and am very appreciative when other women hold the door for me, it’s more of a friendship thing, while… Read more »
@ Erin
“But It is very nice when a man opens a door for me. It speaks to something deep and intrinsic inside me as a woman”
That’s great and I won’t criticize, but does it really matter as far as feeling more feminine to you whether he opened the door for you because you’re a woman or because it was the courteous thing to do?
How could your criticize, that’s simply something personal to how I feel in response to a man doing something nice for me. Goodness. Both John. The answer is both. Is it nice to be courteous? Absolutely. Is it nice when a man wants to be courteous to me because I’m a woman? Absolutely. It’s nice and it will always be nice when men do nice things for women. This reminds me of a woman I knew from England. Who had been living in the states for a couple years. She commented on the differenced between how men in England flirted… Read more »
@ Erin You may not realize it, but that it an important distinction and very relevant to the discussion. Many parts of the world have a good Samaritan law. It is a criminal offense to fail to assist someone in need. In the U.S. what we consider special treatment or above and beyond some cultures look at as routine. That’s the point the anti-chivalry side is making. You can make doing good / being kind this extra special thing done by extra special people for extra special people deserving of such grace or you can make it routine. When something… Read more »
If you do not want to solve women’s issues, you should feel no pressure to do so. Of course, it’s always nice when a man or woman goes that extra mile to give consideration, thought and care to issues that may not directly affect them. I certainly wish that more men would help as I am sure you wish more woman would. While there may be pressure on men to help solve women’s issues, I find that most of the time, it’s met with resistance and frustration. Firstly, I never said I DIDN’T care about women’s issues. I do. What… Read more »
Oirish, I do not know enough about you to know if you care about women’s issues. I don’t see you make too many comments about women’s issues here. I actually think that both sides get their fair share of neglecting. I do not believe this is specific to men or women. You don’t HAVE TO be chivalrous. What do you want me to say? But why should I deny that I find a man to be chivalrous to be nice and helpful? No woman has to be in good physical shape. But many men certainly go on and on about… Read more »
You don’t HAVE TO be chivalrous. What do you want me to say? But why should I deny that I find a man to be chivalrous to be nice and helpful? No woman has to be in good physical shape. But many men certainly go on and on about how much they like when a woman “takes care of herself”. You throw the word “shame” around pretty loosely. Lately it seems when someone doesn’t like when someone disagrees with them, they revert to the “you’re trying to shame me!‘ game. Yet again – the problem is not disagreement. The problem… Read more »
Having been the recipient of both really great behavior from men and really terrible behavior, I can not agree that *most* men already are nice. There are many nice and wonderful men out there for sure. But there are many men out there that are not. And then there are nice and wonderful men who are not nice and wonderful all the time or to the same exact people. Same goes for women. I actually see nothing wrong with a man appreciating a woman who cooks or saying, “I really like it when a woman knows how to cook.” I… Read more »
I actually see nothing wrong with a man appreciating a woman who cooks or saying, “I really like it when a woman knows how to cook.” I have actually learned specific recipes for the different men in my life just for them and their eating pleasure! Did I see this has some sexist backlash? Umm no. I really enjoyed being able to so something domestic for them. Which isn’t what I said. As has already been pointed out to you several times, the objection is to expectations being put upon people AS A CLASS. Not personal expressions of what one… Read more »
I wish society would figure out what it wants to demand of us. At least then our perpetual failures can be made more clear.
I’m in Carlsbad, California this week. So when I go out jogging tomorrow morning and I cross paths with one of the many women joggers here I will cross the street so as to give them their space. That and also to avoid the massively large dogs they seem to be all running with…LOL. As to the topic of chivalry; yeah, I think it’s in its senior citizen years. It’s going to be a hard sell to the younger generation of men who aren’t feminists. Are male feminists chivalrous already? Is it something feminists even accept? Seem like kind of… Read more »
Guess the ladies over there replace men with big dogs to feel safe? Seemed to work.
As to your question on feminist chivalry and how feminist react to chivalry. The hard core feminist call chivalry “Benevolent Sexism.” Interestingly enough, most feminist have no problem with chivalry and actually find the hardline feminist attitude towards chivalry rather exagerated.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/27/men-dont-recognize-benevolent-sexism_n_885430.html
Probably because it’s to their advantage or rather the advantage of women, which is not surprising. Sexism is OK as long as it helps women says the group claiming to be for equality.
I have no problem with chivalry, not because I feel I benefit from it, but I just don’t agree with the hardliners who insist it’s inherently sexist. Whenever someone is polite to me, helps me out or steps up to protect me, I’m extremely grateful. I feel neither entitled to such help, or patronized by it.
And thats fine. But as a feminist, you should be aware that you are benefiting from traditional gender roles.
Diz,
Please refer to the article as to the “advantages” women benefit from.
I appreciate that you don’t feel entitled to such help KKZ.
Now imagine the other side of that equation for a moment. Where If you don’t help, step up, or protect a woman you are deemed sexist, misogynist, unmanly, etc….?
Kinda sets up a situation where women shouldn’t feel entitled to such things but men are expected to provide them on the condition that not doing so proves that one has a negative outlook on women and is not being a “real man”?
I agree with KKZ’s sentiments. Danny, if I don’t up keep my apperance and look feminine, there are a whole ton of men out there that will infact not consider me feminine. They might even think I’ve “et myself go” and that I have low self esteem or don’t care about myself when all that very much might not be true.I very well could be feminine even if my outwards looks don’t portray that. If a man is unhelpful, I don’t deem him a misogynist but I will say that it is a very unattractive quality. Is there something inherently… Read more »
@ Erin I think there’s a big difference between men being chivalrous to the women they care about and men being expected to be chivalrous to all women. I wouldn’t say there is anything wrong with finding unhelpfulness unattractive in men as long as it’s also found to be an unattractive quality in women. You’d probably question any man who thought silence was an attractive quality in a woman and only in women. I don’t think anyone would complain about kindness or help. The complaint is the expectation that kindness and help is unidirectional going from men to women. Let… Read more »
I agree with “Man up”.
Just make sure it’s to become the right kind of Man.
That’s what I’m trying to get at John. Do we really expect to make things better for everyone by only addressing the expectations that are heaped on women (based on them being women) but then turning around and actually reinforcing the ones that are heaped on men (based on them being men)? Or to give an example. A woman gets on a crowded bus and has to stand. There are young healthy looking men and women occupying seats. Why is it that the men and only the men are expected to give up their seat for her? If kindness and… Read more »
@ Danny I understand the argument at least for some of the commentors. It boils down to don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I understand the arguments against it. It risks making other individuals in need invisible and good deeds done for wrong reasons are not necessarily good. In the Spanish / American War the Filipinos fought with the U.S. against Spain. Unlike in Cuba, the U.S. decided to keep the Philippines. There was an uprising and several massacres of the Filipino people by U.S. troops. The U.S. commander or President at the time (I can’t… Read more »
@ Erin That is a misinterpretation and I believe a mischaracterization. People immediately assume that when people complain about articles that call for specifically for men to help women because they are women, you’ll get a backlash. I think you’ll see that same backlash in articles were women are specifically exhorted to help men because they are men. I think a large part of the mischaracterization is that because people believe we should help everyone regardless of gender others will interprete that as a reluctance to help women. For example, a know a woman who was almost hysterical. She ran… Read more »
You can disagree based on your own view but to claim that my belief is a “misinterpretation” or “mischaracterization” makes it sound like *you* hold the right answer and I the wrong. My beliefs are no more a “misinterpretation” or “mischaracterization” then yours may be. There have been a lot of articles on GMP that focus on social issues for women that are met with strong resistance and frustration. The actual topic is brushed aside and the focus than becomes how talking about women specifically is an injustice on it’s own. There is room enough on the internet for all… Read more »
You can disagree based on your own view but to claim that my belief is a “misinterpretation” or “mischaracterization” makes it sound like *you* hold the right answer and I the wrong. My beliefs are no more a “misinterpretation” or “mischaracterization” then yours may be. No, when it comes to you saying things like: And I have to tell you. Right now I am expericing my own resentment seeing how an article about kindness toward women is met with such opposition and disatisifaction. Where you imply that we’re simply opposing “kindness towards women”, when we’re not – we’ve said several… Read more »
She isn’t implying some of you are opposing kindness towards women, but that “an article about kindness toward women” is being met with opposition. She is mostly focusing on double standards – that many men here in GMP oppose the gendered aspect of articles only when it comes to telling men how it would be nice to treat women with respect or anything like that, but when it comes to articles telling how women should be more kind and considerate towards men these very same men never oppose the gendered aspect. I noticed you are one of the males that… Read more »
She is mostly focusing on double standards – that many men here in GMP oppose the gendered aspect of articles only when it comes to telling men how it would be nice to treat women with respect or anything like that, but when it comes to articles telling how women should be more kind and considerate towards men these very same men never oppose the gendered aspect. I noticed you are one of the males that display this behavior here. And I agree with her dissatisfaction. Was this in reply to me? It is following my comment, so I’m assuming… Read more »
Thank you very much Supra de Luca. That is it exactly.
@ Supra de luca It’s important to becoming a good man to understand what men do wrong and work to change that. It’s also important to understand what men do right and encourage the behavior. Some women and yes, she would be included in that group, feel comfortable dictating to men what their experiences are. I think she references the two articles on giving the other gender a break. Both “break” articles were written by a woman from a woman’s perspective. It nay have been one woman. That doesn’t make it any less a woman’s perspective. When men started to… Read more »
“Chivalry is essentially an excuse for men to be kind.” Mr. Anderson, Your entire argument, and surprisingly the arguments of most that demonize Chivalry, is based on your personal opinion on Chivalry and not on what is expressed in the article. It’s easy to say that gender (or any other form of social divide) should not be addressed and our conversation should be based on equality. This is very easy to say, especially when you are on the side of those benefiting (read as privileged) from the existing status quo. And YES, you are privileged in this society, simply because… Read more »
This is very easy to say, especially when you are on the side of those benefiting (read as privileged) from the existing status quo. And YES, you are privileged in this society, simply because you have been born a man. Only if you insist on framing it that way – men are disprivileged by the system as well, often in similar ways to how women are. Many of us are aware of this, and we still maintain that you are wrong. So you might want to come up with another thesis to explain away criticism of your article. Or you… Read more »
Wow! Are some of you really taking this so personal as to have to state your point with personal attacks to the author or whoever does not agree with your opinion? Are you really aware of the REAL message of the article, Mr. OirishM? I read the entire article and then the discussion thread, and then the article again… One thing is to disagree with the author’s opinion, another is to imply what the author is trying to communicate, based on YOUR perception, NOT on what is written. I think the main purpose of the article, as I said in… Read more »
Wow! Are some of you really taking this so personal as to have to state your point with personal attacks to the author or whoever does not agree with your opinion? What, like equating not agreeing with the use of the term chivalry to having an issue with kindness towards women, you mean? That kind of personal attack? I think the main purpose of the article, as I said in a previous comment, is: “To know where does the term ‘chivalry’ comes from, what it meant in its origin, and how Modern Men would apply it today. I don’t think… Read more »
“Like extending it to everyone and not gendering it, perhaps? That sort of thing? Could someone actually tell me what the problem with that is? Because that’s what I’ve been recommending from the getgo but lots of people seem to have a huge problem with it.” Did you really read the article? Really? — “Eduardo is the one who keeps insisting that men are the privileged ones here” And it’s true, in general men are privileged over women. In present times we are still affected more than men, even after years of fighting for equal treatment . I’m not saying… Read more »
@ Eduardo García “Right now society does not need equality, it needs EQUITY.” Equity means people get what they need. It seems to me that people who are saying be kind to everyone, help everyone to the extent that you can do support equity. As far as privilege is concerned, if I am privileged then wouldn’t that mean that I can 1. provide more help and 2. require less help. It would also stand to reason that if women are oppressed as you say then 1. they would require more help and 2. they would be able to provide less… Read more »
@ Eduardo García About 20 – 25 years ago, I was riding the bus. The 9 or 10 seats closest to the driver were priority seating for the handicapped and the elderly. I was sitting in the priority seating area with 8 or 9 women. About half the women were younger 20s / 30s and about half were older 40+. None appeared physically infirm. A woman obviously pregnant gets on the bus and immediately proceeds towards my seat. My initial thought was to get up, but then I thought why should I be expected to give up my seat. I… Read more »
I agree with KKZ’s sentiments. Oh I wasn’t trying to say disagree with KKZ’s sentiments. Just trying to explain things from different perspective. Danny, if I don’t up keep my apperance and look feminine, there are a whole ton of men out there that will infact not consider me feminine. They might even think I’ve “et myself go” and that I have low self esteem or don’t care about myself when all that very much might not be true.I very well could be feminine even if my outwards looks don’t portray that. I don’t doubt that you experience that and… Read more »
Danny Said: “I don’t doubt that you experience that and frankly I think its just as wrong for the record.” So an attractive woman done up nicely never grabs your attention? You don’t enjoy looking at beautiful woman ever? I will always measure the quality of a man by how he treats women. As a woman, it’s going to be pretty important to me what kind of attitudes, beliefs and thoughts he holds about women. I really don’t know many women over the age of 25 that expect special treatment from men, especially today. When I was younger I desperately… Read more »
So an attractive woman done up nicely never grabs your attention? You don’t enjoy looking at beautiful woman ever? I said no such thing. You talked about how when you don’t keep to a certain standard of femininity you run the risked of being considered not feminine by some men. Those men are trying to hold you to their idea of what femininity is supposed to be and then deciding that since you don’t meet it you are not a “real women”. THAT is what I’m saying is wrong. There is a difference between not finding someone attractive and deciding… Read more »
To answer your question: yes. When a heterosexual man sets his sights on a woman he has basically decided that she is worthy of going to great lengths for due to how he has evaluated her feminine qualities and how they trigger certain feelings in him as a heterosexual man. He very well may deem other women as not “real women” and has already formed, in his mind, a sliding scale evaluation of women who are more or less feminine. I believe by not finding someone attractive, one is infact saying they don’t find that person very feminine or masculine… Read more »
To answer your question: yes. When a heterosexual man sets his sights on a woman he has basically decided that she is worthy of going to great lengths for due to how he has evaluated her feminine qualities and how they trigger certain feelings in him as a heterosexual man. He very well may deem other women as not “real women” and has already formed, in his mind, a sliding scale evaluation of women who are more or less feminine. And if he deeming those women as not “real” women then its wrong. There is a difference between “that’s not… Read more »
@ Erin
“So an attractive woman done up nicely never grabs your attention? You don’t enjoy looking at beautiful woman ever?”
So you’ve never done anything you knew to be wrong? Never failed to live up to a moral expectation? Never had a guilty pleasure? Does this also mean that you’d never consider a man looking at a beautiful woman as wrong because he finds her attractive or is that objectification? Are you suggesting that men are justified in judging a woman’s femininity by the way she looks? It seems very close to the two wrongs make a right argument.
I find your question insulting. Especially when I have always been honest on this site about my personal growth and mistakes and when I know you read my posts. I do not know a human being alive, even the most arrogant of human beings, that would ever claim they never did anything wrong. The only people who might do that would be sociopaths. My point is that men have created their own set of ideas about what embodies a feminine women. When I live up to those expectations, I am much more well received by men then I am not.… Read more »
“Benevolent sexism” is actually female privilege but the concept has been twisted around to the point where the benefits are turned into harms (or the benefits are ignored and the harms are magnified).
Its a pretty loaded term.
The general feminist movement has criticized the comments from Hardliner Feminist about Benevolent sexism. They actually think that comments and attitudes like those from the hardliners actually hurt Feminism at the end.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/27/men-dont-recognize-benevolent-sexism_n_885430.html
I see that you say, “general” feminist movement.
I’m a little curious though as to why if the concept of benevolent sexism is considered to be hurtful to feminism why aren’t more feminists critical of it?
I ask this because I can no longer count the number of times I’ve had benevolent sexism thrown in my face but its very rare to see any feminist actually say they disagree with the concept.
Statistically women who kill are several times more likely to kill an intimate than a man who kills. About a third of all intimate partner murders are women killing men, but I guess that’s OK or at least a lesser wrong because it wasn’t “the very person who should make you feel safe”. Statistically men die from industrial accidents at a rate 9x that of women so a man’s life is worth 20% of what a woman earns. 19 firefighters, all men, died battling a wildfire last year to protect the lives and property of women as well as men.… Read more »
I will answer this question after I clarify one thing. Nobody is forcing you to be chivalrous. This is a personal desicion and you should not feel obligated to be chivalrous.
That being said…the fist thing you have to realize when being Chivalrous is that you are privilaged as a man. The rent you pay in life for is helping out others, finding Equity for society, but more on that in the next article.
Worth noting from a historical context that Chivalry, as a knightly code, was upheld by the higher classes of society. Noblewomen of the same social standing were also held to a code of behavior that expected them to be charitable, honorable, courteous, and self-disciplined. Charitable in particular – with lots of spare time on their hands, Ladies often engaged in efforts to help the poor, by distributing food, paying visits to invalids, mending clothing, etc. Charity was a highly valued “ladylike” engagement. Self-discipline – Ladies had just as rigid a set of standards to uphold as their Lords did, and… Read more »
And that is a topic I would love to develope, but as I am limiting myself to Chivalry (or gentlemanly behavior) from a man’s point of view, it would be else were.
An interesting detail is that similar social requirements from knights and ladies existed all over the world. Confusionism has the concept of Jūnzǐ, “perfect man” or “son of ruler”, with very similar moral requirements as Knights did.
but that is for next week.
I agree, a fascinating topic, but you’ve got your hands full with Chivalry! Appreciate you taking that on. I’m a writer by heart and by trade as well so maybe I’ll take up my own challenge and start musing on the idea of Ladylike Conduct and see what comes out. I just think it’s interesting to note that Chivalry is as much tied to class as it is to gender. In the days of Knights and Ladies, the lower-class people sure weren’t living by the same codes of chivalry as the nobles. I’m not sure even a hardline anti-chivalry person… Read more »
Why?…Why must we navigate different expectations?
Note that I am not being sarcastic or criticizing. Why do we limit our spirit and soul only to special occasions or to special people. Why not choose to live like that? trying to find the wonder and beauty in everything. You view the world as you are, not as it is.
My Moral Code (Call it chivalry if you want but I don’t think of it this way) 1. Everyone has the right to be safe. If I feel someones safety is compromised I will assist until my assistance is not required. Sometimes to my own detriment but that is my choice to make 2. Manners, they are the greese which lubricates societies cogs. I use them because because it makes interacting with others smoother. If you don’t like me holding the door open then step aside and let the man behind you walk through. 3. Everyone has the right to… Read more »
@ Luke Davis
That’s much too simple. You’ll never be able to sell any books with that. You need to make things a bit more complex and introduce a concept like privilege that people can examine and agonize over so they can determine what the right thing to do is.
Lol John,
True but it’s simple enough for me to remember and follow.
I could probably sum it up in less words
Be kind and respectful to others.
Help when you can afford to do so
It’s not book length but you could put it on a business card.
Would be a nice replacement item for the outdated “man card”.
I read some of the comments below and it makes me feel a little sad. People seem to be taking chivalry today as something written in stone which can’t be changed, or which gives privilege to one group over another. Chivalry doesn’t need to be formal anymore, we have laws, police and governments now assisting in offering protection and safety. The old might is right society of the 15th century no longer exists and we don’t need knights and moral codes like they did then, at least not the same way. When society changes the requirements for formal Chivalry changes.… Read more »
Sir, bravo.
I would love for you to read next week’s article. It is Part 1 of the values required for chivarly.
Looking forward to it 🙂
@ Luke Davis So you’re saying it’s an issue of semantics. People don’t like the term and that’s fine. Why would they have to use it? There are though I believe problems with the way this article presents chivalry that people take legitimate issue with such as the idea of gender debt. There are also certain things that are implied. If we are to assist women regardless of their ability, but only assist men “in need” if at all, the author implies that if a man needs assistance, he is somehow less of a man. He takes on the attributes… Read more »
I’m saying develop your own moral code and base it around how you treat individuals. Me personally I will stop and assist anyone who is trying to change a flat. If I am first to a door I will open for all who follow. If someone is down on their luck and I will help them if I can.
My help may be refused more often by men but I always offer.
Race, sex and religion never enter my thought process, I only ever see an individual who may need my assistance, or I am polite too.