Can rape jokes provoke awareness, Julianne Escobedo Shepherd asks, or are they a line that should never be breached?
This past month, the rape culture’s been under the magnifying glass—particularly in the context of “humor.” Jersey Shore‘s Vinny Guadagnino, generally considered the most sensitive, intelligent male cast member on the show, released a rap song with the line: “Actin’ like I’m rapin’ it / Fuck her til she fakin’ it.” The Twitter account of the condom manufacturer Durex posted a horrific one-liner that had nothing to do with safe sex, and everything to do with forcible misogyny. And Facebook, after much pressure from groups both within and outside of its internet universe, finally banned rape-joke pages, some on the site for years, saying, “There is no place on Facebook for content that is hateful, threatening, or incites violence, and we encourage users to report pages, posts, or users who violate our Statement of Rights and Responsibilities.
The fact that people find these lines fun, or funny, is systematic of our society, where 60 percent of sexual assaults are not reported to police precisely because of the perceived lack of seriousness toward rape (along with stigma and victim-blaming/shaming, among other reasons).
Jokes about rape are almost always vile. The rarest of humorists can ride the line of provocative and thought-provoking, but more often, rape jokes are coming from said victim-shamers, or those who seem to take the topic lightly, or confuse the issue as to what is actually rape. (If that sounds odd, take note that it took the FBI nearly a century to officially revise its own definition of rape as something that most people would recognize as such.)
Sexual violence activists concur that normalizing conversation and better education about rape prevention would actually increase the frequency of reporting. But the question is, in the right hands, can rape jokes actually help with this? Can they provoke and make people think, in the same way that, say, Richard Pryor’s jokes about race in America helped further discussion of the issue?
The New York Times recently (sort of) asked this question, in a profile of several female comedians who seem to be pushing the bounds of good taste, and playing with the line between uncomfortably funny, and just plain wrong. Primarily focusing on vulgar nerd Sarah Silverman, the article traces several recent threads that seem to stem out from the spunky comedian’s willfully declasse style:
For a certain strain of stand-up, dating to Lenny Bruce, it’s essential to talk about what’s taboo. George Carlin famously argued that rape jokes could be funny. “Picture Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd,” he offered as evidence. Ms. Silverman belongs to this tradition, under the guise of a shallow bigot. What she proved is that there are areas of aggressive, shocking comedy where women could go further than men. To put it another way, her humor would make Johnny Carson uncomfortable.
It’s no accident that her best-known jokes are about rape. Our culture sends mixed signals about this least funny of subjects. Facebook took down a page dedicated to ugly rape jokes last week after months of pressure, yet every night tourists guffaw at a repeated joke about raping babies as a cure for AIDS in “The Book of Mormon.” It’s startlingly rare to watch an evening of stand-up in New York without any mention of rape.
The piece is referring to one of Silverman’s jokes from her more formative years: “I was raped by a doctor, which is so bittersweet for a Jewish girl.”
Clearly, beyond the joke’s rapier-like play on racial stereotypes and flip attitude, Silverman’s gunning for uncomfortable laughter—and the author of the Times piece admits that is exactly what he did. But then he reports from a more recent show:
“I need more rape jokes,” [Silverman] shouted nasally before letting her fans in on what she called a comedy secret, that such jokes are actually not so “edgy” after all. “Who’s going to complain about rape jokes? Rape victims?” she asked. “They barely even report rape.” There were no groans this time.
This is the crux: the Times piece discusses the “frank sexuality” of post-Silverman comedians, such as Whitney Cummings (whose essentialist marriage jokes seem airlifted in from 1953) and Amy Schumer, who blends self-deprecation with social taboos.
One of the most classic, and effective, ways to get audiences to laugh is to find the sweet spot in between what makes them feel weird, and what they might actually, genuinely want to talk about. The Times cites Lenny Bruce, but the aforementioned Pryor is a better precedent, who relieved tension and stress by using his own struggles with racism as fodder for jokes. Sarah Silverman’s point about the lack of rape reporting may have deflated her own punchline, but it also illustrated why her jokes work: they play on a tension and fear that every woman has at some point in her life, whether she has been a victim of sexual assault or not. And by bringing that out into the open—particularly including the fact about reporting—for some, it could serve as a reclamation of the topic.
♦◊♦
In 2008, feminist writer Megan Carpentier, then at Jezebel, wrote that she not only finds certain rape jokes funny, but employed humor on the night of a sexual assault:
I spent a good part of the hours after my most recent assault alternating between hysterical crying and compulsive vomiting—and cracking jokes. I got tired really quickly of the quiet whispers and the looks of pity and the hushed voices and the overall funerary air in the room. And then, because the cops and the detective and my friend were all too scared to laugh, I told jokes … jokes that descended deeper into “inappropriate” territory because, if I could mock it, if I could laugh at it—and if I could make them laugh at the absurdity of trying to take a written statement from a drunk, hysterical, projectile-vomiting witness who was singing “Red, Red Wine” under her breath (when she could breathe) —then it wasn’t actually The Worst Thing In The World.
As Carpentier pointed out, humor is a way to exert control over a situation—something Pryor used as well—and can work whether on the stage or amid a harrowing experience, as the one she details. As she notes, part of the power comes from making outsiders feel uncomfortable and awkward—particularly those with inherent power, like police officers—shifting the socially prescribed mood (in her case, that of sobriety and focus). Which utterly makes sense. Rape is about power, and whatever works to get it back. Not to infer that any comedians, male or female, making rape jokes have been sexually assaulted, but the essential power gleaned from making these sorts of wisecracks is similar.
Which is not to say that I think Sarah Silverman is the exact best person to execute it. She can be funny, but pushes the line so vehemently it can be difficult to know what she really believes. (See: “Joe Franklin raped me,” a joke within a joke.) You might say that’s precisely why it works. Yet the blogger Funny Feminist, who doesn’t find most rape jokes humorous at all, sets forth some good boundaries for it all:
I hate jokes that imply that rape is totally funny, that make fun of victims, or try to imply that rape is totally not a big deal. I also don’t like jokes that use rape as a setup for a different joke because I believe they often implicitly condone or trivialize rape.
Don’t like ads? Become a supporter and enjoy The Good Men Project ad freeOn the other hand, I tend to appreciate jokes that make fun of rapists or rape culture or acknowledge that rape is underreported and terrible. But even those can be incredibly triggering and upsetting to other survivors, and I’m not sure they’re always worth it.
This rubric doesn’t preclude making rape jokes, but would take the empowerment potential of them to new levels. And as trashy primetime “comedies” like Cummings’ dismal “2 Broke Girls” pick up the rape joke mantle, it could push truly funny woman comedians—like Silverman—to create better, smarter takes on the topic. And since the rape joke is embedded in our culture, for now, that can only be a good thing.
Julianne Escobedo Shepherd is an associate editor at AlterNet and a Brooklyn-based freelance writer and editor. Formerly the executive editor of The FADER, her work has appeared in VIBE, SPIN, New York Times and various other magazines and websites.
Originally appeared at AlterNet.com.
—Photo aTROSSity 22/Flickr
When rape is normalized in everyday acceptance such as cracking rape jokes, that says to the uneducated majority that anything rape related is funny and a social norm to mock:
http://www.newser.com/story/136325/somalias-rising-woe-mass-rape.html
Somalia’s Rising Woe: Mass Rape
Aid workers can’t remember the last time so many women were being raped
– See where so far 67% of readers think stories of rape are “hilarious” vs. 33% “depressing” —- THAT IS WHAT NORMALIZING RAPE DOES.
I would hope that those of you who get so up in arms about rape jokes are equally vigilant about pages like this: http://www.facebook.com/pages/RadFem-HUB/237868122941729 It may not seem that bad on the surface but its sole purpose is to link to a blog where male infanticide is advocated, and hatemongers like Mary Daly (who wanted to exterminate males until we were only 10% of the population) are celebrated. I have reported that page to Facebook, and the blog itself to WordPress for hate speech and promoting violence, but I have not received, and don’t really expect, any responses.
Whoa. I just read some stuff there and my eyes are falling out of my head. I am not radical anything. I need a bourbon now.
At some level this kind of extremism becomes a parody of itself, and I really can’t tell anymore if it’s meant to be an over-the-top caricature or if it’s sincere. Past a certain point, I guess it doesn’t really matter.
Another great example of what I’ve said before, that the political spectrum curves around on itself – the people far out on the left and far out on the right start to resemble each other. “Get rid of all women!” “No, get rid of all men!” Yawn.
There’s a Facebook group called The Watchers, they condemn all types of hate speeches. This is their mandate:
“This group was set up so that anyone who comes across pages promoting hate speech against any nationality, ethnicity, religious affiliation, gender, sexual orientation, age or disability can post the page URL and call on friends to report the offensive page and its contents. ”
You can “like” and be part of this group at: http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/thewatcherz/
I saw no hate speech or advocation of violence on that page.
And could you post (with a linked source) where Mary Daly said that?
Most of the violence and hatred is hidden from the Facebook page, but if you followed the links to the blog and didn’t see it there, you didn’t look very hard. Start here: http://radicalhub.wordpress.com/2011/10/04/radical-feminism-in-the-21st-century then look at the comments particularly this one: http://radicalhub.wordpress.com/2011/10/04/radical-feminism-in-the-21st-century/#comment-3597 Or for one actually linked to from the Facebook page: http://radicalhub.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/public-porn-users-thy-name-is-male-entitlement/ According to that all men are not only rapists but child molesters too, because there’s no difference between adult porn and child porn according to those sickos. As for the Mary Daly quote: “If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination… Read more »
It’s not “weasel[ing]’ her out of it to say that she did NOT CALL FOR murder/extermination/etc, but said this “will be accomplished by an evolutionary process”. And I see no mention of 10%. You people just make it up as you go along. There goes your credibility. And the Facebook page doesn’t do what you say it does (unlike the misogynistic FB pages that ACTUALLY CALL FOR RAPE)– if you click and click and click again you might get someone’s OPINION that offends you. But that’s not the page. Really, you MRAs and deniers and patriarchal apologists are not only… Read more »
“Every day more of us are born and more of you die. We be many and you be few.” The Men’s Rights Movement is a reactionary force. It’s about philosophy, not numbers. The more Feminism pushes the envelope beyond the realm of equality into supremacy, the more powerful the MRM will become. Your mislead belief that the men’s movement undermines women’s rights is a clear demonstration of the close-mindedness and deception that feminist rhetoric engulfs its followers with. Attributing the re-establishment of pride in masculinity to violence – as you just have – is exactly the kind of fallacy that… Read more »
If the MRA trolls that post here and constantly attack Hugo and other voices seeking to create dialogue about REAL equality constitutes the Men’s Rights philosophy, then it has the same credibility as the Republican field in the US presidential campaign at the moment. No feminism that I have ever been a part of seeks “supremacy”. This misconception is born of patriarchal values that see a hierarchical social order as the ONLY one– ie, that if one is NOT dominant, one MUST be subservient. The problem with this world view is that it’s just not accurate or real. Feminism is… Read more »
I realise that it’s probably as futile as trying to reason with a brick wall or a drone; the irony is there for all to see – in your surmising what you understand feminism to represent – the moral and noble – right after sugar-coating the hate-speech emanating from deep within the bowels of the beast you worship. The fact that you’ve attempted to rationalise a proclamation made by a prominent feminist that effectively asserted men to be a “contamination” should tell you – and all who’ve read your regurgitation of hollow feminist rhetoric – how detached you are from… Read more »
Equality is a worthy goal, and I do believe we’ll get there someday.
But first, feminism will have to die out so REAL progress can be made.
Full quote: WIE (Interviewer): Which brings us to another question I wanted to ask you. Sally Miller Gearhart, in her article “The Future—If There Is One—Is Female” writes: “At least three further requirements supplement the strategies of environmentalists if we were to create and preserve a less violent world. 1) Every culture must begin to affirm the female future. 2) Species responsibility must be returned to women in every culture. 3) The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately ten percent of the human race.” What do you think about this statement? Mary Daly: I think… Read more »
Click and click again? So because the hatred is two clicks away (and it is literally only that) the first link doesn’t count? So white supremacists should be able to have a page linking to their blogs from FB because the group page doesn’t have “we hate blacks” on the cover? All prejudice is opinion, it doesn’t make it ok. If you’re against the rape joke like pages and you agree that FB is an inappropriate forum for sexism (as I do), then you have to extend that to all sexism, even when it privileges you. “Really, you MRAs and… Read more »
They also had a page about feminist manifestos which paid homage to Valerie Solanos (SCUM manifesto). I didn’t know feminists, even radical ones, ever took her seriously. I’m not going back to retrieve the link, that place is scary, its on the first page if anyone wants it. In another article a woman claimed that women never harm men. Oh! And denial is a tactic rapists use to get out of jail. Because being accused of a crime means that you’re guilty, unless you’re a woman in which case you’re being oppressed.
“denial is a tactic rapists use to get out of jail” No, I’m talking about studies done on men who have not been “caught”– who will self-report to raping as long as the word “rape” is not use– but their behaviour constitutes the legal definition of rape. “If a survey asks men, for example, if they ever “had sexual intercourse with somone, even though they did not want to, because they were too intoxicated (on alcohol or drugs) to resist your sexual advances,” some of them will say yes, as long as the questions don’t use the “R” word. [here… Read more »
Funny how her consent can’t be given if she’s intoxicated or drugged, but if <i.he is equally, or more, intoxicated and drugged he’s responsible for everything that happens. I agree someone who is passed out, can’t give consent, but “intoxicated or drugged” could mean slightly tipsy and people in that condition are held responsible for their actions, unless they are women having sex.
I agree, the legal definition is completely out of whack with actual rape.
If legal protection were similarly extended to intoxicated men and mobilised against women who deliberately mischaracterise their use of contraception you might have a point. But its not. Rape is defined as something men do to women and male victims don’t count since their agressors were the same gender. An equality movement that doesn’t campaign for equal responsibility as well as equal protection is campaigning for less than equality.
Something that people seem to be missing is that rape is not always called rape. Rapists rarely call themselves rapists. If they really thought it was wrong they wouldn’t do it! Even victims don’t necessarily call it rape. Some studies have shown up to a quarter of women who can identify a incident in their lives that fits the definition of rape, not all of them actually consider it rape. The lines between sex and rape get blurred in a so-called “rape culture”. Many women live their lives expecting situations where they are obligated to perform “wifely duties” regardless of… Read more »
“A woman with lots of sexual experience is hated by other women, has few marriage prospects, and probably worse in bed than a virgin.”
LMFAO. Well, being “a woman with lots of sexual experience” who has loads of women friends whom I love and who love me, who has been married (and been asked MANY times), and being really AWESOME in bed, I’d really love to know where this theory comes from.
I think we live in a culture where, since the 1960’s, entertainment has to get constantly edgier and edgier to maintain the same shock value. So you get rape jokes. I suppose the same thing has happened in horror movies and porn. It just gets grosser and more extreme all the time. You watch porn or a slasher film from 20 years ago and it seems riculously tame by today’s standards. I remember being in high school when all our parents went nuts because Prince sang a song about masturbation. Now that song (Darling Nikki) doesn’t seem shocking at all.… Read more »
I could make the same argument to prove that the united states is turning to communism, or that religion is being systematically wiped out, or that everyone is becoming gay. The 1960s were a low point for free speech in general. That doesn’t mean that because people can make horror films (and theres stuff from three decades ago that is just as graphic as anything today) which show actual violence that theres more actual violence. Look at the violent crime statistics, its all going down. I’m pretty optimistic for the future, and free speech.
Actually, I’m deeply pessimisstic, and not because I have some rosy view of the past. I do think our culture is in the toilet, and getting worse. When people get bored with how extreme the entertainment is today, what’s next? that’s what I wonder.
We’ll see I guess. Violence in the media is going up, but overall violent crime is going down. I’d be inclined to say things are probably getting better.
I think feminists and females ought to check out hard-core porn with guys, so we can see what all the fun is about, and become less offended and sensitive about rape and rape culture. Feminists must be overreacting. Mothers, daughters and rape victims must embrace rape culture…this should empower each one of us to better in bed. Plus we’ll gain the adoration of men; well the ones who’ve posted on here…if they’re representative of most men. They might even stuff a hundred dollar bill in our bras…let’s show them we like to be raped!
What planet are you living on? Women *do* look up porn. It doesn’t make them rapists, or rape victims.
Women do watch porn. I personally know several that do.
I think the worst thing is when nobody you know knows that you have been raped and you have to listen to jokes about it, even trying to tell them why it is wrong it is impossible for me to say…it’s not funny, because I have been Raped.
Oh I get it. Lightbulb moment!
Men aren’t shocked by the rape page on E.D. probably due to all their exposure to graphic, hard-core porn. They’re used to seeing women demeaned, violently treated and verbally assaulted and made fun of – all acceptable and fun in porn, there’s entertainment value.
Because no matter how many times people say it, it can’t POSSIBLY be about free speech, can it Michelle? That possibility doesn’t exist for you.
How much porn have you actually seen? And why did rape still happen long before porn?
Theres racist pages up there too, aswell as pages taking the piss out of racists. Does that mean that the men you suppose write all these pages are both racists and anti-racists? Maybe they’re so used to both black people and white-supremacists being demeaned that they got confused and wrote pages about both?
At any rate, you’re still forgetting that the person running the site is a woman. Where is her shock and outrage? Clearly rape jokes aren’t just a male thing.
Or possibly because they joke about just about everything there. Rape exists where porn doesn’t. The two aren’t connected.
“Oh I get it. Lightbulb moment!
Men aren’t shocked by the rape page on E.D. probably due to all their exposure to graphic, hard-core porn.”
Is that what passes for an epiphany in feminist circles these days?
It sounds extreme to say that rape jokes are literally never, ever acceptable in any circumstances. I can imagine people in a rape survivors’ support group joking about their experiences as a way to process and gain power over their experiences. Or for the people in the group to blow off steam. I would find it hard to order them never to joke about rape in that circumstance. Humor has a lot of social and cultural functions, and it’s not just there to make things acceptable or to minimize the subject or to de-value particular people. Sometimes there’s a catharsis… Read more »
In my native country, rape or sexual assault of man or women, girl or boy, babies or bestiality are all condemned. Rapes are unheard of. Rape and other types of crime are highly shamed – there is no mixed message of what is appropriate and what is not. Since rape is illegal, so it follows that rape jokes would be vulgar and condemned as well (won’t be thrown in jail or anything). There is no rape culture over there. When the messages are consistent so are human values and moral code of conduct. NorthAmerica lacks consistent messaging – practically in… Read more »
In a country with no free speech, it would be very easy for the government to hide what rapes occur. Depending on the culture, you could simply not call them rape when it comes up. If rape is unheard of, I very seriously doubt that’s because it doesn’t happen, rather nobody talks about it. Also what on earth is “Females and feminists secretly wish to be raped.”? Eh? There are some women who fetishize the idea, or rather fantasy scenarios where the man “just knows” what she really wants. But this is just another version of what feminists call rape… Read more »
I think the bit about “Females and feminists” was her being ironic, but can see how you misread that, I had a bit of a double take when I read it myself.
“Females and feminists secretly wish to be raped.” That’s taken from Encyclopedia Dramatica on their satirizing and glorifying the word rape. If this type of garbage was directed at a specific celebrity or individual, you can be sure that he/she will sue your pants off and make you pay restitution for slander/libel – this being a crime. Freedom of speech is acceptable to assault across a specific gender, but not to an individual – so not criminally responsible. That’s irony. Our laws are twisted. My native country doesn’t have rape culture and rarely any rape incidents. It’s a small country… Read more »
Also, there are several pages up there about specific individuals and celebrities. They can’t sue because its clear that the site is a humour site and isn’t intended to be taken seriously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moron_in_a_hurry
Yes, you can get away with murder too. Just say you did that as a joke and did not mean to offend. It’s the fault of that person for taking things too seriously – he/she is to be blamed. Satire/jokes are forms of harassment if they offend people. There’s an article on GMP addressing that in the workplace. But our laws, like I said are twisted: It’s unlawful to harass an individual, but it’s perfectly lawful to verbally assault across a specific group/gender under the guise of FREEDOM OF SPEECH, as satire. Similarly, it’s lawful for the harassed individual to… Read more »
No, I don’t think you can actually. Most jokes offend someone, are all jokes harassment? I would agree that rape jokes in the workplace would constitute harassment: its horribly out of context. Humour sites on the internet aren’t the workplace and anyone going there should be prepared for people not to be serious about things. Incidentally, if I find your comments offensive can I claim harassment and have you silenced? If so, how would anyone ever express an opinion? Its unlawful to harass an individual, but its perfectly lawful to tell jokes. I’d respect your position a little more, if… Read more »
There’s employment discrimination law, but FREEDOM OF SPEECH law cancels out this law outside of the workplace, IRONIC! Our laws are two-faced.
There are several federal employment discrimination laws, some very well-know and some less so:
– Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination based on color, gender, national origin, pregnancy, race, religion, and sex, including sexual harassment;
– The Civil Rights Act of 1991 provides for monetary damages in cases where there is intentional employment discrimination;
The only time an individual or group is protected from discrimination is when they’re working at a company. Outside of that, it’s dog eat dog world. Anybody and everybody can discriminate to their hearts content, under our Freedom of Speech law, just label it humour and you can get away with it. Laws are clear as mud.
Riiiight, And rape never happens in this native country of yours because noone jokes about it?
Heres a wakeup call: Rape is illegal in the US too. Its also highly shamed, more so than almost any other crime. Try telling a man whos been falsely accused of rape that rapists are accepted in society and you might learn otherwise.
If rape was so accepted and men were all really wannabe rapists, why do convicted rapists have to be separated from the prison population to avoid being murdered?
If rape was so accepted and men were all really wannabe rapists, why do convicted rapists have to be separated from the prison population to avoid being murdered
Ive heard two things about rapists in prison.
1. The younger the victim the more danger they are in.
2. However bad this is in men’s prisons supposedly women’s prisons are even worse on rapists, especially those who raped children.
But since people twist their brains really hard to believe that women “don’t so stuff like”….
In my native country, criminals do not receive government protection; they lose that right for violating the law or committing a crime. Along with that includes shaming and humiliation from families and the general public. These two factors alone are strong deterrents against criminal activity including raping. So literally “rape at your own risk” or commit crime at your own risk. The laws are not there as a safety net to protect criminals; thus the rate of crime is very low or close to nothing. They don’t baby young criminals either; there’s no Young Offenders Act. NorthAmerica is soft on… Read more »
Prisoners in NorthAmerica live in luxury compared to some destitute citizens in third world countries, who go garbage picking to find food or find plastics to sell and have to beg to survive. They would love to live in NorthAmerica, commit crime, get sent to prison and get fed 3 nutritious meals a day, watch tv, given an education, earn some money, take part in social activities, have a roof over their head and so on – all on taxpayers money. This is an American dream. I don’t know if this is still true, but my parents had told me… Read more »
I’m missing the connection between this message and the rest of the comments. Is this a response to people talking about prison rapes? What I hear you saying is, sure men are raped in US prisons, but on the whole their lives aren’t so bad. Is that the message?
If so, I suppose the counterpoint would be to say, based on what I got from your messages, that people in your native country are under grinding poverty, but at least no one is ever raped, so it’s not so bad.
That post was to augment another response to someone’s post on here, which didn’t get posted because we have censorship or communists as moderators. That post did not violate any of the commenting policy terms. I see people who post flaming stuff on here and those get posted. One calling another person a moron and so on.
People post a bunch of shit, vile and harassing remarks and comments on CNN.com but CNN doesn’t care, because it’s a public blog and they don’t have communist moderators or over-sensitive writers/journalists. I
The thing is there are so many hard-working, law abiding citizens in the world, especially third world countries who would love to switch places with prisoners in NorthAmerica. Prisoners live in luxury compared to the destitute. Criminals should lose right to citizenship; they should be shipped to an island or to poverty nations so they can appreciate and value democracy in NorthAmerica, and stop pulling shit like crimes/murder. There should be some kind of exchange program for prisoners, similar to student exchanges. Each prisoner should exchange places with a homeless/destitute person in the third world. This will help with international… Read more »
The jokes depend on the context and the audience. I find Louis C.K.’s rape jokes hilarious because he makes fun of the situation. In contrast, when Bill Maher jokes about the rape of boys or prison rape, he mocks the victims. Coincidentally, that tends to be the divide in the gender aspect of rape jokes. Whenever the joke is about the rape of females, the joke is either about the ridiculousness of the situation, the rapist, or the victim’s reaction post rape. When the joke is about the rape of males, the joke tends to be about the boys and… Read more »
I don’t think rape jokes are ever funny. Not only are they offensive, but I’ve yet to hear one that has any creative merit that would make it funny even if it wasn’t funny. Its not a case of being prudish or not having a sense of humour. Its just they don’t (IMHO) have any comedic value. Of course most people who tell or laugh at rape jokes don’t approve of rape, but the action of telling a rape joke gives the impression that they do. There is perhaps a place for telling jokes about rapists, just like anti-racist comedians… Read more »
Nothing should be so off limits that we can’t joke about it. The important thing is knowing your audience and actually trying to be funny instead of just mean-spirited.
I don’t believe in the concept of rape culture. Namely the idea that the culture itself contributes to rape. Rape exists in every culture. If rape were purely a consequence of culture than there should be cultures where there is no rape at all. There aren’t. Therefore rape transcends culture. And I don’t believe that rape jokes contribute to more actual rapes. Its one thing to find the jokes disgusting or filthy. Its another to say that they contribute to rape. What evidence is there that more rape jokes == more rapes? Given that comedians never used to tell jokes… Read more »
Well said. I don’t think its true that rape jokes are anything new, but it does certainly seem to be more of a moral panic than anything that actually addresses the issue. Some of the ideas surrounding rape culture are really disturbing, not to mention completely insane. heres an example: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/04/facebook-hate-speech-women-rape “What Facebook and others who defend this pernicious hate speech don’t seem to get is that rapists don’t rape because they’re somehow evil or perverted or in any way particularly different from than the average man in the street: rapists rape because they can. Rapists rape because they know… Read more »
“Some of the ideas surrounding rape culture are really disturbing, not to mention completely insane. heres an example….Yep, you heard it here first: Rapists are just normal men with the opportunity, not seriously disturbed and twisted individuals at all.” I don’t mind that these ideas are disturbing. What I am extremely pissed off about is that feminists can just throw them around without any shred of empirical proof. The theory of rape culture, if taken seriously, is a real theory with testable claims which largely parallel the feminist theory of DV (the Duluth model). For instance, men who rape tend… Read more »
An example of how rape culture theory most certainly does NOT fit with empirical data is the case of Japan: http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-pornography-rape-sex-crimes-japan.html If there is any culture that could be described as a rape culture it is Japan. Rape scenes are very common in Japanese pornography and in Japanese hentai. However in the last few decades the amount of Japanese pornography has exploded to due more liberal laws and regulations. This explosion of pornography depicting violent rape occured at the same time as the incidence of rape declined. In addition, Japan’s incidence of rape is lower in Japan than the United… Read more »
Japan is very densely populated compared to the span of the United States. There is always overcrowding in these small Asian countries; every year the population grows. Try to rape someone in Japan in broad daylight…the sheer number of witnesses and people who would kick your butt would cause you to run the opposite direction. Rapes going down, doesn’t necessarily correlate to porn going up or rape depictions going up. The police are doing a better job at catching the criminals; better educated people, higher consequences may all be at play. Last I heard on the news, is that Japanese… Read more »
They’re not interested in sex because of the ridiculous amount of hentai available for them, and women don’t want to have much to do with them because of their obsession with hentai. Why have a real girlfriend who can say no when you can watch hentai that can’t say no? As to the other thing, they have the hugest problems with public sexual harassment of women. It’s so bad women have had to have their own cars on subways. Of course you can’t exactly compare rape and sexual harassment, but being groped can be damaging too, especially when there is… Read more »
“every year the population grows. Try to rape someone in Japan in broad daylight…the sheer number of witnesses and people who would kick your butt would cause you to run the opposite direction.” Japan is not significantly more overcrowded now that it was in 1993 when rapes were more common. As for population increase, its gone from 125 million in 1990’s to 127 million today. So your explanation fails. “The police are doing a better job at catching the criminals; better educated people, higher consequences may all be at play” This goes both ways…better education increases the report rate and… Read more »
You really think that rape is less common there because theres no secluded places? Try visiting the country. That doesn’t explain the general lack of crime in their culture, also, theres plenty of densely populated areas where rape is common. Ok, so where is all this rape culture then? If people are better educated, rape is going down and police are effectively dealing with the problem then it doesn’t leave much room for the idea of rape jokes inspiring the rape gender to oppress women. As for your idea that japanese men are just asexual or porn-addicts? The amount of… Read more »
There are potential issues with that: Japanese culture has a long and troubled relationship with sexual consent. It would be a little more accurate to say that reported rape is very very low in japan. Also, there is evidence of a, extremely restricted, genuine rape culture over there. Just look at the superfree club. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Free Its hard to look at cultural phenomena like that and argue that rape culture can never exist. But I do agree that it doesn’t explain the vast majority of rape. I suspect the extremely low levels of rape in Japan stem from their low rates… Read more »
“There are potential issues with that: Japanese culture has a long and troubled relationship with sexual consent. It would be a little more accurate to say that reported rape is very very low in japan” That would only explain the difference between United States and Japan. It fails to explain the why report rapes went down, unless you say that the report rate went down. But this doesn’t make sense. There more awareness programs now surrounding rape then their were before and in the past women were more likely to be considered as having committed a sexual offense if they… Read more »
True. That one doesn’t wash actually.
An additional fact that is hard to square with feminist rape culture theory. Observe the crime rate for all violent crimes from the 1960’s to 2009: http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/State/RunCrimeStatebyState.cfm I graphed these rates in Excel which is pretty easy to do. Robbery and aggravated assault are both correlated with rape. Both crimes increase around the same time (1960-1993), peak at around 1993 and decrease from 1993 to 2009. Murder is also correlated but more weakly. Feminist rape culture theory must explain 2 things about this data: 1) Why is rape correlated with robbery. Are all the robberies against women? I don’t think… Read more »
For those having trouble with the UCR data tool..the same data can be found here:
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
Note that the case is really even worse than this because if you go back to the 1950′s you will find that crime was even lower then. Was America less patriarchal during the 1950′s? Was there less of a rape culture back then. I thought we were become more feminist and that rape culture is associated with patriarchal values. My money says they would say something to the effect of the 1950s being so patriarchal and oppresive to women that the rapes were happening but not reported. And I’ll admit that to a degree I would agree with that. But… Read more »
For starters, using statistics isn’t your friend when it comes to rape because the only numbers we have are for those rapes that are reported. But I think it’s a pretty big leap from “rape culture exists” to rape is “purely a consequence of culture.” Also, I find it curious that your assumption that “Rape culture advocates are ideologically motivated not empirically motivated” means that you don’t have to listen to them. I’m one of those feminists who doubts statistics and so-called empiric evidence because I never know who gathered the information or what their agenda was. But I really… Read more »
You have to admit, even given the fact that rape often goes unreported, you would expect rape accusations to be at least a bit higher in the 50s than now if rape culture really operated in the manner claimed. The comment about ideological motivation rather than empirical was backed up by evidence in fairness. He did listen to them, then he disproved their point. That comment was an ironic rephrasing of the paragraph I linked to, not sure if that was clear. Do you really think every man around you is a rapist in training? Again, if rape culture operated… Read more »
“you would expect rape accusations to be at least a bit higher in the 50s than” No, I wouldn’t and neither would anyone who has any idea about how crappy many women’s lives were in the 50s. The victim-blaming element of rape culture is at least recognised today. In the 50s, marital rape wasn’t illegal. Women who were known not to be “virgins” had a much lower chance of being married– and since women had a really difficult time buying property, getting a loan, getting into a university, finding a job where they didn’t have to quit as soon as… Read more »
“No, I wouldn’t and neither would anyone who has any idea about how crappy many women’s lives were in the 50s.” As if life was all that great good for either gender back then. True women had difficulty working, being educated etc., they weren’t under the same obligation men were. The rules forcing women to give up their job after marriage (in the Irish public service anyway) recognised the general lack of jobs following the war and tried to ensure that as many families as possible had at least one earning partner, rather than some with two and many with… Read more »
Damn, typo: “all that great for either gender…”
I “came here” to refute the assertion that “you would expect rape accusations to be at least a bit higher in the 50s ” And the very idea “that husbands who’s wives LEFT THEM FOR OTHER MEN were entitled to no compensation and were often cut off from their children” in the 50s is completely laughable. Women who left their husbands in the 50s– even if it was for getting beaten and fearing for their lives– almost always lost EVERYTHING. Men in the 50s could have a wife, children, mistresses and sex with anyone they wanted with impunity– from social… Read more »
However laughable you may find it, it happened. Men weren’t entitled to alimony or reparations if their partners left them and the courts didn’t recognise them as fit parents, often awarding custody of their children to state institutions if the mother wasn’t willing or able to look after them. I think the victims of this found it less than laughable. Sure, some men did. Most had trouble even taking care of a wife and kids. If you only compare well off men to destitute women its hardly surprising that you conclude women have it worse and men have it better.… Read more »
Yes, to everything Peter said, plus, even setting aside the 50s the argument does not hold for the years from 1993 to now. There is no way a lower percentage of rapes are being reported than in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Not now when we have rape crisis centers on every college campus trying to convince every woman they come in contact with that every mildly unpleasant sexual experience she had was rape. And let me reiterate the idea that “Rapists are just normal men with the opportunity, not seriously disturbed and twisted individuals at all,” is what rape… Read more »
The majority of rapes are by people known to the victim. The majority of “date” rapists, husband (and ex-husband) rapists, partner and ex-partner rapists, and a large percentage of others DENY that what they did was rape, even though it fits legal definitions of rape. The statistics about rape under-reporting are not based on “feelings”. They’re based on people who tell people in the social and counselling professions that they were raped (or raped) but who didn’t go to law enforcement. And statistics about false rape accusations show that those accusations occur at about the same rate as false accusations… Read more »
When you consider that the legal definition of rape has been expanded to ensure that women are always considered victims, even when they perform the same acts on men that would land a man in jail, the complaint that their “victimisers” don’t recognise what they did as rape rings a little hollow. If we got drunk and slept together only one of us could wake up in the morning and call the police (hint, it wouldn’t be me). Even if I felt violated, men can’t be raped because an erection is considered proof of consent. As for where people get… Read more »
If I was a victim of rape – real rape, involving violence or the threat of violence, I don’t think the thing I’d find most offensive would be the jokes. I think I would be much more offended by having my experience being trivialized by the watering down of the definition of “rape”. If I experienced the terror of being under the control of a crazed maniac and not knowing if I’d live to see the end of it, I wouldn’t appreciate having my experience compared to someone’s embarrassing moments in hookup history.
“real rape, involving violence or the threat of violence”
And rape culture rears its ugly head without even being aware of what it is.
And rape culture rears its ugly head without even being aware of what it is.
I guess for the True Believer in Rape Culture that is equivalent of the Religious Fundamentalist saying: “Be damned thou, sinner!
try the results of this peer reviewed paper on for size:
http://www.mediaradar.org/research_on_false_rape_allegations.php
OK, you need to look up the definition of “peer reviewed”.
Do I? The paper referred to there was reviewed by a panel of academic peers and published in an academic journal of forensic science.
That fits just about any definition of peer review I can imagine, how exactly do *you* define it? Papers you agree with?
Context is the issue here. I actually think Sarah Silverman is often very funny (and her doctor-rape joke makes me laugh every time I hear it). I don’t think she’s generally trying to raise awareness *or* mock rape survivors; she’s going for shock laughs. It comes from the same place as dead-baby jokes. Very few people would actually laugh if they saw a baby going into a blender or getting stabbed with a pitchfork or whatever, but most people laugh at dead-baby jokes because they’re so shockingly awful that they’re funny. Peter’s point is also good: audience matters. I would… Read more »
We as adults are great at corrupting and confusing impressionable youngsters and adults alike on what is appropriate social norms – yet another article condoning rape jokes as acceptable humor. Shame. No wonder society is screwed up and rape continues to flourish. Rape is an act of violence and violation, whereas racism cannot entirely be categorized as such. Rape victims are people of all ages, from babies to grandmas. Racism, unless it includes violent acts, is nowhere as inhumane and grotesque as raping a person. Rape is not a taboo subject, but there are other forums and better places to… Read more »
Encyclopedia dramatica is a site of satirical dictionary terms. One of the term it defines and satirizes is RAPE; it also makes fun of the word SLUT and equates that term with feminists. See if anyone finds this funny. I have no doubt the writer behind this vulgarity is male, like so many others. Here’s some content from http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Rape. : Sluts Sluts are simply asking for it. Dumb and disgusting, they deserve to be raped over and over again. About 99.9% of girls who claim to be raped are sluts…it’s like, “Bitch, what did you expect?” We have to teach… Read more »
That’s so obviously satire I’m surprised you’re not getting it…especially after noting that it’s from a satirical dictionary. I would wager that it’s certainly a feminist writing it, and probably a female feminist.
I’ve been to encyclopaedia dramatica a couple of times. I know it satirizes terms and was not offended by those pages until I came across this RAPE page. It is the most vulgar and pornographic, misogynist thing I have ever come across online and in my life! The writer condones and promotes rape. And we should all accept this as FREEDOM OF SPEECH? So if you’re female, just accept rape as part of your lot in life and shut the hell up? I don’t know if there are anymore web pages online teaching people how to make bombs to blow… Read more »
You found it humorous until you came across a page about an issue that affected you? Sorry, not very credible if you’re perfectly willing to allow off colour jokes provided your values get left alone. Telling jokes about things isn’t the same as saying they’re ok, its certainly nowhere near the same as instructing people how to make bombs. I don’t know who wrote that particular page, but I do know that the individual behind that site is a woman. Statements like “I have no doubt the writer behind this vulgarity is male, like so many others.” are profoundly sexist.… Read more »
“And we should all accept this as freedom of speech?”
Short answer: YES. We don’t have “free until it offends me” speech. We don’t have “free as long as a majority deems it acceptable” speech. And we don’t have “free only when it has socially redeeming value” speech.
We have FREE. SPEECH. Full stop.
“It is the most vulgar and pornographic, misogynist thing I have ever come across online and in my life!” That’s the point, it’s shock value entertainment. The more shocking = the better for those who want to shock, they want you to be offended, make “the lil ol ladies blush” n what not. Many of them though probably don’t actually believe in that horrible stuff but say it just to stir people up, troll people etc. You can have someone who says horrible sexist jokes, rape jokes, etc who will change their tune when their loved ones are raped and… Read more »
I got an “F” when I took the class “Rape Jokes 101”. The teacher failed me because my thesis was poorly framed and lacked supportive evidence. My thesis was: Hate speeches disguised as satirical jokes or tagged as ‘humour’ encourages misogynistic views. Rick, I know you want to lay the blame on a female writer for that vulgar crap…clearly that type of garbage can only be written by a misogynist, immature male who didn’t get breast milk, but was fed liquid crack. I’ve seen those type of hate speeches written by guys who are proud of their smutty work. Lots… Read more »
The sexism emanating from that comment is shocking. For your own sake I suggest you reevaluate your views of men, and women for that matter.
I find it interesting that there isn’t even a female responding or supporting my views against rape jokes. It’s all been men posting on here giving their approval of rape jokes and online web pages promoting/satirizing rape, except for Chris Flux – you’re a good man, you understand humanity well. There seems to be a pact amongst men to support each other and support and side with the bad apples for a strong front. If you have a daughter, wife some female in your life – show her the rape page on E.D. Ask her for her thoughts. Tell her… Read more »
Probably something to do with the fact that most of the readers on this site are male. Sorry, no conspiracy here.
I know a rape victim (twice) that finds rape jokes funny and liked those facebook pages that caused such a storm lately. I’m pretty sure if I showed her that ED page she’d laugh at it. Its not just men, and shes not raping people by laughing.
I’m here and I’m with you, MichelleG.
When men who have been raped can laugh and tell jokes about their own rape, I’ll be happy to laugh along.
I think the Funny Feminist has it exactly right.
I’ve seen those type of hate speeches written by guys who are proud of their smutty work. Lots on Facebook. Girls don’t write them, they may support these hate speeches because they see it as cool and want the guys to like them. Funny. I thought the problem wasn’t just people who write and say that material but also those who support it. Or since in this case the support is coming from girls we don’t hold them responsible for supporting but rather just the boys they are trying to impress. Does this mean the next time the discussion is… Read more »
Are you seriously suggesting that men who support rape jokes (or rape or rape culture) weren’t breast fed? As if breast milk is some magic force of peace and non-rapability?
I mean, the page may have been written by a man, but I doubt there is any correlation between being bottle fed and sexual assault. Is that really what you mean?
That was SATIRE. I’m shocked you didn’t get it or found it funny, lightened up! Where is the comedic soul in you? This discussion is about rape afterall; rape is funny and I know you enjoy rape jokes as you’ve indicated on previous posts. Such irony. Rape can be satirized, but satirizing breast milk and you have people all up in arms about that! This is no different than the Facebook page on breastfeeding which men/boys found offensive enough to have Facebook take that down quickly, but glorifying rape Facebook pages are acceptable as humour and are allowed to stay,… Read more »
This isn’t a humour site and you didn’t label your comments as humour. If men were making sexist jokes here against women I’d be equally annoyed. Given the man-blaming slant of your posts its not hard to see how someone, even a woman, could take you seriously when you start slinging insults. If I went onto a feminist site examining anti male jokes and began making sexist assumptions about the tellers of such jokes I’d expect a similar reaction. As I mentioned in my post above, context is important. Offensive jokes have the most power to offend when it could… Read more »
Incidentally, if you do want an appropriate forum for sexist humour/satire, why not join encyclopedia dramatica?
“I’ve seen those type of hate speeches written by guys who are proud of their smutty work. Lots on Facebook. Girls don’t write them, they may support these hate speeches because they see it as cool and want the guys to like them.”
Never seen girls write hate speech against a group before on facebook? I think you don’t give enough agency to females with this comment, I’ve known women who make and laugh at all kinds of jokes from rape to violence against infants….What makes you think it’s mainly men in charge?
“We as adults are great at corrupting and confusing impressionable youngsters and adults alike on what is appropriate social norms – yet another article condoning rape jokes as acceptable humor. Shame. No wonder society is screwed up and rape continues to flourish.” I seriously doubt that any rapist ever made their decision to rape on the back of a rape joke. I’ve heard many jokes about rape in my time, I’ve yet to rape anyone. “Rape is an act of violence and violation, whereas racism cannot entirely be categorized as such. Rape victims are people of all ages, from babies… Read more »
I agree that rape jokes can be horribly horribly wrong, and I’m no fan of Sarah Silverman, but that doesn’t mean that laughing at a rape joke makes you a bad person, or even condones rape. I know two feminists in particular (one male, one female) who really dressed me down for suggesting that rape jokes can be funny. The same two people make racist jokes all the time, aswell as jokes attacking other minorities. What makes those jokes funny to me (aswell as rape jokes) is that I know full well that they’re not serious. Context is everything, a… Read more »
Context is everything, a joke told by a stranger in public has more potential to offend as their audience isn’t certain what their agenda is. The same joke told by a friend in private, especially in context, has less potential to offend, since those present are aware whether or not the person in question is being genuinely homophobic or just humorous. I think with talking about a comedian in public the issue of context becomes very difficult to gauge. 1. As you say what’s the comedian’s agenda? 2. Not just what type of audience are they talking to but WHO… Read more »
I think the first two are very valid, but theres not much you can do about number three. Other than only ever to tell punderful christmas cracker jokes, which wouldn’t be much fun. Most humour is offensive to someone, I don’t think rape jokes are a special catagory in this.
Also, theres something very different about a standup gig, almost like suspension of disbelief, that often allows the comedian to get away with saying things they wouldn’t under other circumstances. That said, Sarah Silverman pushes her artistic licence waaay too far.
Hi Peter, You had asked for my comments somewhere in this thread, and now I can’t find it – I’ll jump in here. I am the publisher of this site, and indeed, a woman. The specific comment was something about “where is the outrage over rape jokes, especially by women on this site.” My POV is that I’d rather have outrage over rape than over rape jokes. I get that words can be hurtful. I get that racist, misogynist, misandrist, or otherwise marginalizing words, or words used to try to control other groups, or silence other groups, are not good.… Read more »
Hi Lisa, 🙂
Was that to me? I don’t remember asking either. MichelleG was asking for more women to comment, was that it? At any rate, thanks for chipping in, the more the merrier.
I’d agree with pretty much every part of that, especially the commenting in public bit, and I’m particularly glad FB took down those like pages. I don’t think they caused anyone to commit rape, but on somewhere like facebook some rape victim was bound to see them eventually.
“At any rate, you’re still forgetting that the person running the site is a woman. Where is her shock and outrage? Clearly rape jokes aren’t just a male thing.”
Found it :). That wasn’t directed at you. Another user had been mentioning a site called encyclopaedia dramatica (an anything goes humour site) and complaining about how the obviously male and -insert sexist adjective here- users had been joking about rape, admittedly in a very extreme and insulting manner. I felt it was important to point out that a woman ran the site, and had probably contributed to that page.