Can rape jokes provoke awareness, Julianne Escobedo Shepherd asks, or are they a line that should never be breached?
This past month, the rape culture’s been under the magnifying glass—particularly in the context of “humor.” Jersey Shore‘s Vinny Guadagnino, generally considered the most sensitive, intelligent male cast member on the show, released a rap song with the line: “Actin’ like I’m rapin’ it / Fuck her til she fakin’ it.” The Twitter account of the condom manufacturer Durex posted a horrific one-liner that had nothing to do with safe sex, and everything to do with forcible misogyny. And Facebook, after much pressure from groups both within and outside of its internet universe, finally banned rape-joke pages, some on the site for years, saying, “There is no place on Facebook for content that is hateful, threatening, or incites violence, and we encourage users to report pages, posts, or users who violate our Statement of Rights and Responsibilities.
The fact that people find these lines fun, or funny, is systematic of our society, where 60 percent of sexual assaults are not reported to police precisely because of the perceived lack of seriousness toward rape (along with stigma and victim-blaming/shaming, among other reasons).
Jokes about rape are almost always vile. The rarest of humorists can ride the line of provocative and thought-provoking, but more often, rape jokes are coming from said victim-shamers, or those who seem to take the topic lightly, or confuse the issue as to what is actually rape. (If that sounds odd, take note that it took the FBI nearly a century to officially revise its own definition of rape as something that most people would recognize as such.)
Sexual violence activists concur that normalizing conversation and better education about rape prevention would actually increase the frequency of reporting. But the question is, in the right hands, can rape jokes actually help with this? Can they provoke and make people think, in the same way that, say, Richard Pryor’s jokes about race in America helped further discussion of the issue?
The New York Times recently (sort of) asked this question, in a profile of several female comedians who seem to be pushing the bounds of good taste, and playing with the line between uncomfortably funny, and just plain wrong. Primarily focusing on vulgar nerd Sarah Silverman, the article traces several recent threads that seem to stem out from the spunky comedian’s willfully declasse style:
For a certain strain of stand-up, dating to Lenny Bruce, it’s essential to talk about what’s taboo. George Carlin famously argued that rape jokes could be funny. “Picture Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd,” he offered as evidence. Ms. Silverman belongs to this tradition, under the guise of a shallow bigot. What she proved is that there are areas of aggressive, shocking comedy where women could go further than men. To put it another way, her humor would make Johnny Carson uncomfortable.
It’s no accident that her best-known jokes are about rape. Our culture sends mixed signals about this least funny of subjects. Facebook took down a page dedicated to ugly rape jokes last week after months of pressure, yet every night tourists guffaw at a repeated joke about raping babies as a cure for AIDS in “The Book of Mormon.” It’s startlingly rare to watch an evening of stand-up in New York without any mention of rape.
The piece is referring to one of Silverman’s jokes from her more formative years: “I was raped by a doctor, which is so bittersweet for a Jewish girl.”
Clearly, beyond the joke’s rapier-like play on racial stereotypes and flip attitude, Silverman’s gunning for uncomfortable laughter—and the author of the Times piece admits that is exactly what he did. But then he reports from a more recent show:
“I need more rape jokes,” [Silverman] shouted nasally before letting her fans in on what she called a comedy secret, that such jokes are actually not so “edgy” after all. “Who’s going to complain about rape jokes? Rape victims?” she asked. “They barely even report rape.” There were no groans this time.
This is the crux: the Times piece discusses the “frank sexuality” of post-Silverman comedians, such as Whitney Cummings (whose essentialist marriage jokes seem airlifted in from 1953) and Amy Schumer, who blends self-deprecation with social taboos.
One of the most classic, and effective, ways to get audiences to laugh is to find the sweet spot in between what makes them feel weird, and what they might actually, genuinely want to talk about. The Times cites Lenny Bruce, but the aforementioned Pryor is a better precedent, who relieved tension and stress by using his own struggles with racism as fodder for jokes. Sarah Silverman’s point about the lack of rape reporting may have deflated her own punchline, but it also illustrated why her jokes work: they play on a tension and fear that every woman has at some point in her life, whether she has been a victim of sexual assault or not. And by bringing that out into the open—particularly including the fact about reporting—for some, it could serve as a reclamation of the topic.
♦◊♦
In 2008, feminist writer Megan Carpentier, then at Jezebel, wrote that she not only finds certain rape jokes funny, but employed humor on the night of a sexual assault:
I spent a good part of the hours after my most recent assault alternating between hysterical crying and compulsive vomiting—and cracking jokes. I got tired really quickly of the quiet whispers and the looks of pity and the hushed voices and the overall funerary air in the room. And then, because the cops and the detective and my friend were all too scared to laugh, I told jokes … jokes that descended deeper into “inappropriate” territory because, if I could mock it, if I could laugh at it—and if I could make them laugh at the absurdity of trying to take a written statement from a drunk, hysterical, projectile-vomiting witness who was singing “Red, Red Wine” under her breath (when she could breathe) —then it wasn’t actually The Worst Thing In The World.
As Carpentier pointed out, humor is a way to exert control over a situation—something Pryor used as well—and can work whether on the stage or amid a harrowing experience, as the one she details. As she notes, part of the power comes from making outsiders feel uncomfortable and awkward—particularly those with inherent power, like police officers—shifting the socially prescribed mood (in her case, that of sobriety and focus). Which utterly makes sense. Rape is about power, and whatever works to get it back. Not to infer that any comedians, male or female, making rape jokes have been sexually assaulted, but the essential power gleaned from making these sorts of wisecracks is similar.
Which is not to say that I think Sarah Silverman is the exact best person to execute it. She can be funny, but pushes the line so vehemently it can be difficult to know what she really believes. (See: “Joe Franklin raped me,” a joke within a joke.) You might say that’s precisely why it works. Yet the blogger Funny Feminist, who doesn’t find most rape jokes humorous at all, sets forth some good boundaries for it all:
I hate jokes that imply that rape is totally funny, that make fun of victims, or try to imply that rape is totally not a big deal. I also don’t like jokes that use rape as a setup for a different joke because I believe they often implicitly condone or trivialize rape.
On the other hand, I tend to appreciate jokes that make fun of rapists or rape culture or acknowledge that rape is underreported and terrible. But even those can be incredibly triggering and upsetting to other survivors, and I’m not sure they’re always worth it.
This rubric doesn’t preclude making rape jokes, but would take the empowerment potential of them to new levels. And as trashy primetime “comedies” like Cummings’ dismal “2 Broke Girls” pick up the rape joke mantle, it could push truly funny woman comedians—like Silverman—to create better, smarter takes on the topic. And since the rape joke is embedded in our culture, for now, that can only be a good thing.
Julianne Escobedo Shepherd is an associate editor at AlterNet and a Brooklyn-based freelance writer and editor. Formerly the executive editor of The FADER, her work has appeared in VIBE, SPIN, New York Times and various other magazines and websites.
Originally appeared at AlterNet.com.
—Photo aTROSSity 22/Flickr
I agree that rape jokes can be horribly horribly wrong, and I’m no fan of Sarah Silverman, but that doesn’t mean that laughing at a rape joke makes you a bad person, or even condones rape. I know two feminists in particular (one male, one female) who really dressed me down for suggesting that rape jokes can be funny. The same two people make racist jokes all the time, aswell as jokes attacking other minorities. What makes those jokes funny to me (aswell as rape jokes) is that I know full well that they’re not serious.
Context is everything, a joke told by a stranger in public has more potential to offend as their audience isn’t certain what their agenda is. The same joke told by a friend in private, especially in context, has less potential to offend, since those present are aware whether or not the person in question is being genuinely homophobic or just humorous.
In Sarah Silverman’s case, I can’t help but get the impression that she just does it for cheap shocks. Her comedy is full of examples of unfunny jokes whose only remarkable factor is having some contraversial element or other, often crudely forced in at right angles to the rest of her routine. In this context its difficult to see her rape jokes as anything other than exploitative (of their shock value) and belittling the experience of their victims. The rape victim mentioned above was in a position to make rape jokes since, as a rape victim, everyone present would in no way think that she was condoning rape or belittling it. The cops couldn’t laugh because the same assumption wouldn’t necessarily be made on their behalf, particularly if they were male.
All that said, I don’t think rape is treated with anything less than absolute seriousness by society (I except prison rape from this). Rape, more so than any other form of assault, is very difficult to prove. That doesn’t mean that police don’t do their utmost to investigate. I’d suggest that this has less to do with rape jokes, than the nature of rape itself.
Context is everything, a joke told by a stranger in public has more potential to offend as their audience isn’t certain what their agenda is. The same joke told by a friend in private, especially in context, has less potential to offend, since those present are aware whether or not the person in question is being genuinely homophobic or just humorous.
I think with talking about a comedian in public the issue of context becomes very difficult to gauge.
1. As you say what’s the comedian’s agenda?
2. Not just what type of audience are they talking to but WHO is in the audience. You could tell a joke of any sort and have two people in the same crowd (maybe even sitting next to each other) where one will laugh while the other will be hurt by it.
3. Even on a personal level the one telling the joke may not be serious but it triggers something they may not have known about. To borrow your example of race jokes. Let’s say there is someone in your circle of friends who has some past trauma related to race and one of those jokes triggers it. Now as you say the teller wasn’t serious but I’m often told that “I’m not serious/I didn’t mean it” don’t cut it because when you offend someone “intent doesn’t matter”.
It just becomes a minefield a lot of people don’t want to walk through.
A few years ago Kathy Griffin was hosting like a New Year’s Eve show or something and someone started heckling her about how she should get a real job. She responds, “I don’t tell you what to do with the dick in your mouth so don’t tell me what to do with my job.” Okay sure she’s not serious but what if someone who was forced to perform oral sex had hear that?
I think the first two are very valid, but theres not much you can do about number three. Other than only ever to tell punderful christmas cracker jokes, which wouldn’t be much fun. Most humour is offensive to someone, I don’t think rape jokes are a special catagory in this.
Also, theres something very different about a standup gig, almost like suspension of disbelief, that often allows the comedian to get away with saying things they wouldn’t under other circumstances. That said, Sarah Silverman pushes her artistic licence waaay too far.
Hi Peter,
You had asked for my comments somewhere in this thread, and now I can’t find it – I’ll jump in here. I am the publisher of this site, and indeed, a woman. The specific comment was something about “where is the outrage over rape jokes, especially by women on this site.”
My POV is that I’d rather have outrage over rape than over rape jokes. I get that words can be hurtful. I get that racist, misogynist, misandrist, or otherwise marginalizing words, or words used to try to control other groups, or silence other groups, are not good.
I don’t believe rape jokes – for the most part — fall under that category. I believe that the intentions are good – to provoke people to think, to create conversations that were previously difficult to have. To connect with people over topics that usually tend to be divisive.
It doesn’t mean I believe all those jokes are funny, nor to I think that people should say jokes about rape any time, any where, without consequences. It means I believe you should at all times respect the person you are talking to. There’s a difference between a stand-up comedian making a pointed joke to a group of people who are there expecting humor and know it’s a joke because that’s what they paid to see, compared to having a group of people in a workplace environment making rape jokes while other employees walk by.
I believe in anything that makes communication around subjects that are difficult to talk about easier to talk about.
Thanks for commenting.
Hi Lisa,
Was that to me? I don’t remember asking either. MichelleG was asking for more women to comment, was that it? At any rate, thanks for chipping in, the more the merrier.
I’d agree with pretty much every part of that, especially the commenting in public bit, and I’m particularly glad FB took down those like pages. I don’t think they caused anyone to commit rape, but on somewhere like facebook some rape victim was bound to see them eventually.
“At any rate, you’re still forgetting that the person running the site is a woman. Where is her shock and outrage? Clearly rape jokes aren’t just a male thing.”
Found it
. That wasn’t directed at you. Another user had been mentioning a site called encyclopaedia dramatica (an anything goes humour site) and complaining about how the obviously male and -insert sexist adjective here- users had been joking about rape, admittedly in a very extreme and insulting manner. I felt it was important to point out that a woman ran the site, and had probably contributed to that page.
We as adults are great at corrupting and confusing impressionable youngsters and adults alike on what is appropriate social norms – yet another article condoning rape jokes as acceptable humor. Shame. No wonder society is screwed up and rape continues to flourish.
Rape is an act of violence and violation, whereas racism cannot entirely be categorized as such. Rape victims are people of all ages, from babies to grandmas. Racism, unless it includes violent acts, is nowhere as inhumane and grotesque as raping a person. Rape is not a taboo subject, but there are other forums and better places to educate and discuss this issue, than a comedy club. I guess comedians run out of funny, good material and grab any shtick which they think can give them an extra 15 minutes of fame and a couple dollars into their pocket at the end of the night.
The English, literature, Drama and journalism… whatnot scholars and comedian rape victims who are supporting this type of humor are desperate elitists – trying to prove to everyone they got good taste in rape jokes; as if there should be a grading scale for rape jokes? And if you fail to see or agree with their “specialized” type of rape humor, then you must be common folks who did not take Rape Jokes 101 – you get an F!
Here is a webpage which contains rape jokes and much more http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Rape.
Help decide whether this is funny or not. If you don’t think so, please fill out this petition to remove this page from the worldwideweb http://www.change.org/petitions/petition-for-encyclopedia-dramatica-to-take-down-rape-page
That webpage contains no content warning; the fault of the site’s administrator.
Encyclopedia dramatica is a site of satirical dictionary terms. One of the term it defines and satirizes is RAPE; it also makes fun of the word SLUT and equates that term with feminists. See if anyone finds this funny. I have no doubt the writer behind this vulgarity is male, like so many others.
Here’s some content from http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Rape. :
Sluts
Sluts are simply asking for it. Dumb and disgusting, they deserve to be raped over and over again. About 99.9% of girls who claim to be raped are sluts…it’s like, “Bitch, what did you expect?” We have to teach sluts a lesson about who the superior sex is and rape the shit out of them so that they can learn their lesson. All feminists are sluts. Besides, we put them to sleep with pills first. But rather than just accepting their unfortunate fate and getting on with their lives, feminists will constantly dwell on the “traumatic” event, defining their entire lives by a single bad experience. This is why we need to rape every feminist out there to show them who really controls things and to show them that they’re dumb whores for thinking they can stand up to us. Unfortunately, feminists are annoying butthurt mutants and there’s rarely enough alcohol on hand to make the bestiality palatable. In fact, statistics show that 10 out of 10 men would rather rape a malfunctioning blender. If “rabbi” sounds “rape me” to you, maybe you’re the slut.
That’s so obviously satire I’m surprised you’re not getting it…especially after noting that it’s from a satirical dictionary. I would wager that it’s certainly a feminist writing it, and probably a female feminist.
I’ve been to encyclopaedia dramatica a couple of times. I know it satirizes terms and was not offended by those pages until I came across this RAPE page. It is the most vulgar and pornographic, misogynist thing I have ever come across online and in my life! The writer condones and promotes rape. And we should all accept this as FREEDOM OF SPEECH? So if you’re female, just accept rape as part of your lot in life and shut the hell up?
I don’t know if there are anymore web pages online teaching people how to make bombs to blow people up. I guess the same immoral people see that as FREEDOM OF SPEECH too? Where do we draw the line?
Everyone who responds, always respond in the context that they would never rape anyone after hearing a rape joke or reading such garbage. They know better. Of course you know better…you’re on the Goodmenproject afterall. I would expect no less!
You found it humorous until you came across a page about an issue that affected you? Sorry, not very credible if you’re perfectly willing to allow off colour jokes provided your values get left alone. Telling jokes about things isn’t the same as saying they’re ok, its certainly nowhere near the same as instructing people how to make bombs.
I don’t know who wrote that particular page, but I do know that the individual behind that site is a woman. Statements like “I have no doubt the writer behind this vulgarity is male, like so many others.” are profoundly sexist. That kind of whitewashing of women and blackballing of men is a major obstacle to gender equality.
“And we should all accept this as freedom of speech?”
Short answer: YES. We don’t have “free until it offends me” speech. We don’t have “free as long as a majority deems it acceptable” speech. And we don’t have “free only when it has socially redeeming value” speech.
We have FREE. SPEECH. Full stop.
“It is the most vulgar and pornographic, misogynist thing I have ever come across online and in my life!”
That’s the point, it’s shock value entertainment. The more shocking = the better for those who want to shock, they want you to be offended, make “the lil ol ladies blush” n what not. Many of them though probably don’t actually believe in that horrible stuff but say it just to stir people up, troll people etc. You can have someone who says horrible sexist jokes, rape jokes, etc who will change their tune when their loved ones are raped and will damn near kill the rapist. “Shit stirrers” are just trying to rile people up, I’ve done it before (not with the rape topic, just general poking fun at friends n family) by purposely saying something I know will stir someone up, like a sammich joke against women (I am quite capable of making my own sammichs and don’t believe it’s a woman’s job btw) and the friend/family member will usually get annoyed BUT laugh and they will probably crack a joke back. None of it is serious though and it can be quite impressive to hear the other person shoot down the notion of women having to make food, reinforcing their belief and mine that people don’t need to do gender roles. It can be a way of bonding, such as I don’t care when my friends make fat jokes around me cuz I know they’re just bullshitting around, I and others make jokes about our ethnicities even when we’ve heard racism towards us for instance.
Rape jokes are on the extreme end of the scale but I personally don’t take them seriously, just like I don’t take the many jokes of violence I hear seriously. I play games like GTA full of horrific violence IF it were real but I know these are just jokes, just a way to deal with a subject that is quite hard to deal with (being a violence survivor myself). I can’t explain how it works though, the gallows humor, I’ve laughed at death before because if I didn’t I probably would have broken down into tears. It can be a coping mechanism and a very important one at that.
The humor wasn’t that someone (in the joke) was raped by the way, it’s the fact someone said something so shocking, laughing at the bad taste without really paying attention to the content because the content itself isn’t funny. That ha ha…you gonna cop a lot of hate over that joke type of laugh. Again I find it very hard to explain, it’s quite weird to laugh at something in fiction but if it was reality it’d be horrible and you’d want justice to be done, infact you never want it to become reality. Humor I think can be hard to explain, some of us laugh at people getting injured whilst simultaneously cringing, maybe it’s the sheer randomness, bad luck, rarity of the accident that is funny?
I recently saw a video where nothing happened much, it was the side of a road and a few people were unloading a truck and suddenly they shit-bricks and ran like crazy with a semi trailer sliding on ice into the truck they unloaded, wiping it out. I found that hilarious, the reaction of fear thinking holy shit that would be extremely scary. I’ve laughed after being in an accident, maybe it was adrenaline, maybe it was fear, but I burst out laughing. I can’t explain why but humor pops up at weird times, obviously some find rape jokes funny but don’t assume that they truly think rape itself is funny. We can laugh at fictional instances of horrible crimes, but the reality can really be different and whilst I’ve laughed at all kinds of violence in movies n games…the reality doesn’t make me laugh, it makes me sad, makes me angry that it happened to someone, makes me want to grab the rapist or the murderer n stop them somehow.
I think it’s important to differentiate between this dark humor and obvious satire, and cases where people really are advocating for rape. I don’t think anyone on EncyloDramatica etc truly want people to be raped or harmed, but they do want to laugh about the idea of it. Maybe they are ignorant and don’t know any rape survivors, maybe they’re just immature and want to laugh at everything to make the world seem less bad or serious, maybe they just really enjoy stirring people up. I don’t condone public jokes of such horrid nature but I can’t fault people if they laugh at it AS LONG as they don’t actually believe in it (eg not actually believing women deserve to be raped or something). I can’t fault people for their own individual humor or coping mechanisms for stress in this world, I just hope they have the decency to at least keep it away from others and be mindful of the audience. The stuff I joke about I don’t do it in front of many others, and only do it around people I know realize it’s a joke and just want to relax.
I got an “F” when I took the class “Rape Jokes 101″.
The teacher failed me because my thesis was poorly framed and lacked supportive evidence. My thesis was: Hate speeches disguised as satirical jokes or tagged as ‘humour’ encourages misogynistic views.
Rick, I know you want to lay the blame on a female writer for that vulgar crap…clearly that type of garbage can only be written by a misogynist, immature male who didn’t get breast milk, but was fed liquid crack. I’ve seen those type of hate speeches written by guys who are proud of their smutty work. Lots on Facebook. Girls don’t write them, they may support these hate speeches because they see it as cool and want the guys to like them. Similar to prostitutes who love their pimps or the girls think the pimps have the girls best interests at heart. Teens are very impressionable and follow the crowd. If you tell them to jump off the bridge, they probably would or even those suicide pacts that I’ve heard about.
The admin is not necessarily the writer of all the wiki pages. They have creative geniuses who donate their time and make up this stuff for shock value.
The sexism emanating from that comment is shocking. For your own sake I suggest you reevaluate your views of men, and women for that matter.
I find it interesting that there isn’t even a female responding or supporting my views against rape jokes. It’s all been men posting on here giving their approval of rape jokes and online web pages promoting/satirizing rape, except for Chris Flux – you’re a good man, you understand humanity well.
There seems to be a pact amongst men to support each other and support and side with the bad apples for a strong front. If you have a daughter, wife some female in your life – show her the rape page on E.D. Ask her for her thoughts. Tell her like you have on here, that, you approve of that type of satire; that it is appropriate and funny, explain to her where the humour lies so she fully laugh along with you. And that there are boys out there who think it is cool to rape girls and she should not put up a fight.
Probably something to do with the fact that most of the readers on this site are male. Sorry, no conspiracy here.
I know a rape victim (twice) that finds rape jokes funny and liked those facebook pages that caused such a storm lately. I’m pretty sure if I showed her that ED page she’d laugh at it. Its not just men, and shes not raping people by laughing.
I’m here and I’m with you, MichelleG.
When men who have been raped can laugh and tell jokes about their own rape, I’ll be happy to laugh along.
I think the Funny Feminist has it exactly right.
I’ve seen those type of hate speeches written by guys who are proud of their smutty work. Lots on Facebook. Girls don’t write them, they may support these hate speeches because they see it as cool and want the guys to like them.
Funny. I thought the problem wasn’t just people who write and say that material but also those who support it. Or since in this case the support is coming from girls we don’t hold them responsible for supporting but rather just the boys they are trying to impress.
Does this mean the next time the discussion is about boys who support behavior that they don’t actually do its okay to let them off the hook.
I agree with Peter. Reevaluation is in order.
Are you seriously suggesting that men who support rape jokes (or rape or rape culture) weren’t breast fed? As if breast milk is some magic force of peace and non-rapability?
I mean, the page may have been written by a man, but I doubt there is any correlation between being bottle fed and sexual assault. Is that really what you mean?
That was SATIRE. I’m shocked you didn’t get it or found it funny, lightened up! Where is the comedic soul in you?
This discussion is about rape afterall; rape is funny and I know you enjoy rape jokes as you’ve indicated on previous posts. Such irony. Rape can be satirized, but satirizing breast milk and you have people all up in arms about that! This is no different than the Facebook page on breastfeeding which men/boys found offensive enough to have Facebook take that down quickly, but glorifying rape Facebook pages are acceptable as humour and are allowed to stay, so long as they’re tagged as ‘humor’. Good God!
This isn’t a humour site and you didn’t label your comments as humour. If men were making sexist jokes here against women I’d be equally annoyed. Given the man-blaming slant of your posts its not hard to see how someone, even a woman, could take you seriously when you start slinging insults.
If I went onto a feminist site examining anti male jokes and began making sexist assumptions about the tellers of such jokes I’d expect a similar reaction.
As I mentioned in my post above, context is important. Offensive jokes have the most power to offend when it could be inferred that the teller of the joke actually believes the prejudice they are supposedly satiring. White people shouldn’t tell black jokes in a serious context. Women shouldn’t satirise men when they’re attacking them, its likely to be understood as sexism.
Incidentally, if you do want an appropriate forum for sexist humour/satire, why not join encyclopedia dramatica?
“I’ve seen those type of hate speeches written by guys who are proud of their smutty work. Lots on Facebook. Girls don’t write them, they may support these hate speeches because they see it as cool and want the guys to like them.”
Never seen girls write hate speech against a group before on facebook? I think you don’t give enough agency to females with this comment, I’ve known women who make and laugh at all kinds of jokes from rape to violence against infants….What makes you think it’s mainly men in charge?
“We as adults are great at corrupting and confusing impressionable youngsters and adults alike on what is appropriate social norms – yet another article condoning rape jokes as acceptable humor. Shame. No wonder society is screwed up and rape continues to flourish.”
I seriously doubt that any rapist ever made their decision to rape on the back of a rape joke. I’ve heard many jokes about rape in my time, I’ve yet to rape anyone.
“Rape is an act of violence and violation, whereas racism cannot entirely be categorized as such. Rape victims are people of all ages, from babies to grandmas. Racism, unless it includes violent acts, is nowhere as inhumane and grotesque as raping a person.”
What?? Why is there any need for this comparison. And not only that, how is this comparison even possible, its contrasting a broad area of prejudice and intimidation with a specific violent crime. The fact that some feminists feel the need to place rape above all other crimes is at the heart of whats wrong with gender equality movements: its supposed to be about making life better for people, not some kind of oppression olympics.
As for encyclopaedia dramatica… good luck with that. Even if that petition reaches 6000 signatures I seriously doubt it will convince girlvinyl (the admin) to take down the page. Also I can’t imagine how you navigated to that page without getting some idea of the content that would be on it. The web is the most powerful forum for free speech in the world, if that means some offensive humour and tasteless sites, so be it.
Context is the issue here. I actually think Sarah Silverman is often very funny (and her doctor-rape joke makes me laugh every time I hear it). I don’t think she’s generally trying to raise awareness *or* mock rape survivors; she’s going for shock laughs. It comes from the same place as dead-baby jokes. Very few people would actually laugh if they saw a baby going into a blender or getting stabbed with a pitchfork or whatever, but most people laugh at dead-baby jokes because they’re so shockingly awful that they’re funny.
Peter’s point is also good: audience matters. I would never tell a rape joke except to friends of mine who would chuckle at it — certainly not in public. And I would only tell it to friends who I think take rape seriously and would laugh out of shock rather than contempt for survivors.
Kudos to Megan Carpentier for using humor to bear up under terrible circumstances.
I don’t believe in the concept of rape culture. Namely the idea that the culture itself contributes to rape. Rape exists in every culture. If rape were purely a consequence of culture than there should be cultures where there is no rape at all. There aren’t. Therefore rape transcends culture.
And I don’t believe that rape jokes contribute to more actual rapes. Its one thing to find the jokes disgusting or filthy. Its another to say that they contribute to rape.
What evidence is there that more rape jokes == more rapes? Given that comedians never used to tell jokes about rape before but do today and yet actual number of rapes have declined doesn’t this imply that more rape jokes == less rape?
Well said. I don’t think its true that rape jokes are anything new, but it does certainly seem to be more of a moral panic than anything that actually addresses the issue.
Some of the ideas surrounding rape culture are really disturbing, not to mention completely insane. heres an example:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/04/facebook-hate-speech-women-rape
“What Facebook and others who defend this pernicious hate speech don’t seem to get is that rapists don’t rape because they’re somehow evil or perverted or in any way particularly different from than the average man in the street: rapists rape because they can. Rapists rape because they know the odds are stacked in their favour, because they know the chances are they’ll get away with it.”
Yep, you heard it here first: Rapists are just normal men with the opportunity, not seriously disturbed and twisted individuals at all.
“Some of the ideas surrounding rape culture are really disturbing, not to mention completely insane. heres an example….Yep, you heard it here first: Rapists are just normal men with the opportunity, not seriously disturbed and twisted individuals at all.”
I don’t mind that these ideas are disturbing. What I am extremely pissed off about is that feminists can just throw them around without any shred of empirical proof. The theory of rape culture, if taken seriously, is a real theory with testable claims which largely parallel the feminist theory of DV (the Duluth model). For instance, men who rape tend to have previous arrests for other crimes and they tend to have substance abuse problems. But this fact conflicts with rape culture theory. Why should beliefs about whether or not it is ok to rape a woman in any way be correlated with whether it is ok to steal a car. Yet somehow this correlation exists. Rape culture theory cannot explain this.
Rape culture advocates are ideologically motivated not empirically motivated. Feminists are looking for facts to confirm their theory and no doubt they will find them. But they are ignoring everything which contradicts their theory or they attempt to explain away inconvenient facts. This results in a heavily distorted view of reality.
The feminist theory of Rape culture should be assessed based on the following:
a. How well does the theory generate hypothetical statements that can be empirically tested?
b. How well does the theory predict relevant events, characteristics, or circumstances?
c. How well does the theory explain variation in the phenomena observed?
d. How well does the theory fit with known empirical data?
e. How well does the theory provide a sense of understanding of what causes events, characteristics, or circumstances?
f. How well does the theory generate effective intervention and prevention approaches?
taken from
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=empirical%20criticism%20of%20the%20duluth%20model%20dutton&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CGUQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mediaradar.org%2Fdocs%2FDutton_Corvo-Transforming-flawed-policy.pdf&ei=tojfTs7gD4q6tgeJ9amCBQ&usg=AFQjCNF-rsV5btEN7ITq607YuSispoVTVw&cad=rja
An example of how rape culture theory most certainly does NOT fit with empirical data is the case of Japan:
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-pornography-rape-sex-crimes-japan.html
If there is any culture that could be described as a rape culture it is Japan. Rape scenes are very common in Japanese pornography and in Japanese hentai. However in the last few decades the amount of Japanese pornography has exploded to due more liberal laws and regulations. This explosion of pornography depicting violent rape occured at the same time as the incidence of rape declined. In addition, Japan’s incidence of rape is lower in Japan than the United States. The pornography of the United States is, IMO, much less “rapey” than Japanese pornography. Also the culture is less “rapey”. In addition to all this the Japanese are far more patriarchal and have a far more patriarchal culture than Americans.
This flies directly in the face of rape culture ideas. In fact it implies that
more rape culture == less actual rapes
How else to explain the fact that Japanese porn goes hugely up, rape depictions go up and yet actual rapes go down. Or to explain the fact that the United States which a far more feminist and less rapey culture than Japan nevertheless has more actual rapes.
Japan is very densely populated compared to the span of the United States. There is always overcrowding in these small Asian countries; every year the population grows. Try to rape someone in Japan in broad daylight…the sheer number of witnesses and people who would kick your butt would cause you to run the opposite direction.
Rapes going down, doesn’t necessarily correlate to porn going up or rape depictions going up. The police are doing a better job at catching the criminals; better educated people, higher consequences may all be at play. Last I heard on the news, is that Japanese men and women between 18-29 (around there) lack an interest in sex – they are focused on careers and getting better educated. The bad economy also is forcing young males to cocoon at home with their parents much longer – they are interested in video games and not into gfs or sex.
They’re not interested in sex because of the ridiculous amount of hentai available for them, and women don’t want to have much to do with them because of their obsession with hentai. Why have a real girlfriend who can say no when you can watch hentai that can’t say no?
As to the other thing, they have the hugest problems with public sexual harassment of women. It’s so bad women have had to have their own cars on subways. Of course you can’t exactly compare rape and sexual harassment, but being groped can be damaging too, especially when there is no more room on that car and so you have to get in the other one, and then the men see you as fair game because you’re in their car.
“every year the population grows. Try to rape someone in Japan in broad daylight…the sheer number of witnesses and people who would kick your butt would cause you to run the opposite direction.”
Japan is not significantly more overcrowded now that it was in 1993 when rapes were more common. As for population increase, its gone from 125 million in 1990′s to 127 million today. So your explanation fails.
“The police are doing a better job at catching the criminals; better educated people, higher consequences may all be at play”
This goes both ways…better education increases the report rate and the conviction rate has increased. THis should increase the number of reported rapes.
“Last I heard on the news, is that Japanese men and women between 18-29 (around there) lack an interest in sex”
Please be a little more consistent. According to rape culture theory, rape has nothing to do with sex. Its all about power remember. So its irrelevant whether the men are interested in sex since according to feminist rape culture theory, rape has nothing to do with sex.
You really think that rape is less common there because theres no secluded places? Try visiting the country. That doesn’t explain the general lack of crime in their culture, also, theres plenty of densely populated areas where rape is common.
Ok, so where is all this rape culture then? If people are better educated, rape is going down and police are effectively dealing with the problem then it doesn’t leave much room for the idea of rape jokes inspiring the rape gender to oppress women.
As for your idea that japanese men are just asexual or porn-addicts? The amount of love hotels puts lie to that idea. Theres porn in other countries too, it doesn’t mean people don’t want or have sex.
@Amber: While I’m sure some men do that, not many do. I wonder how many “chikan” were actually trying to get their wallet. If I lived in Japan I’d campaign for separate subway cars for men, its not safe for a man to be in such an enclosed space with a strange woman. Even unproven accusations can destroy lives. Intensely crowded areas is the only place in Japan where sexual harassment is any more common than other countries, mostly its one of the safest countries in the world.
There are potential issues with that: Japanese culture has a long and troubled relationship with sexual consent. It would be a little more accurate to say that reported rape is very very low in japan. Also, there is evidence of a, extremely restricted, genuine rape culture over there. Just look at the superfree club. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Free Its hard to look at cultural phenomena like that and argue that rape culture can never exist. But I do agree that it doesn’t explain the vast majority of rape.
I suspect the extremely low levels of rape in Japan stem from their low rates of unemployment and relatively law abiding culture in general.
“There are potential issues with that: Japanese culture has a long and troubled relationship with sexual consent. It would be a little more accurate to say that reported rape is very very low in japan”
That would only explain the difference between United States and Japan. It fails to explain the why report rapes went down, unless you say that the report rate went down. But this doesn’t make sense. There more awareness programs now surrounding rape then their were before and in the past women were more likely to be considered as having committed a sexual offense if they reported a rape.
A low reporting rate therefore fails to explain why the rape rate has gone down over the last two decades despite the fact that the availability of violent rape porn has massively increased.
True. That one doesn’t wash actually.
An additional fact that is hard to square with feminist rape culture theory. Observe the crime rate for all violent crimes from the 1960′s to 2009:
http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/State/RunCrimeStatebyState.cfm
I graphed these rates in Excel which is pretty easy to do. Robbery and aggravated assault are both correlated with rape. Both crimes increase around the same time (1960-1993), peak at around 1993 and decrease from 1993 to 2009. Murder is also correlated but more weakly.
Feminist rape culture theory must explain 2 things about this data:
1) Why is rape correlated with robbery. Are all the robberies against women? I don’t think so. Same with murder…a substantial number of men are getting murdered.
2) The temporal pattern of rape has to be explained…why does it increase form 1960 to 1993 and then decrease from 1993 to 2009.
Note that the case is really even worse than this because if you go back to the 1950′s you will find that crime was even lower then. Was America less patriarchal during the 1950′s? Was there less of a rape culture back then. I thought we were become more feminist and that rape culture is associated with patriarchal values.
And why did rape increase up to 1993. Were we becoming more and more of a rape culture up until 1993 and then after 1993 we became less of a rape culture?
Why is rape correlated with robbery? It doesn’t really make sense. If patriarchal values/rape culture lead to more rapes why should they also lead to more robberies. This data also agrees with criminal profiles of typical rapists. Generally the typical rapist has committed other violent crimes like assault, robbery and murder.
These are the type of questions you would ask if you took the theory of rape culture as a serious scientific theory which explains rape. I have never heard feminists ask these questions. Therefore I don’t take feminists or rape culture seriously.
For those having trouble with the UCR data tool..the same data can be found here:
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
Note that the case is really even worse than this because if you go back to the 1950′s you will find that crime was even lower then. Was America less patriarchal during the 1950′s? Was there less of a rape culture back then. I thought we were become more feminist and that rape culture is associated with patriarchal values.
My money says they would say something to the effect of the 1950s being so patriarchal and oppresive to women that the rapes were happening but not reported. And I’ll admit that to a degree I would agree with that. But considering that the common statistic is that 60% of rapes go unreported (and I’d really like to know who came up with that number and how) I’d be curious what that percentage was back in the 50s.
Why is rape correlated with robbery? It doesn’t really make sense. If patriarchal values/rape culture lead to more rapes why should they also lead to more robberies. This data also agrees with criminal profiles of typical rapists. Generally the typical rapist has committed other violent crimes like assault, robbery and murder.
The thing is rape is correlated with robbery when it suits them. This is how they can argue that rape is a crime deserving of special attention but false rape accusations should be treated with the same regard as false allegations of any other crime. Totally ignoring that the “accuser said/accused said” thicket is much worse to deal with in rape than with other crimes.
These are the type of questions you would ask if you took the theory of rape culture as a serious scientific theory which explains rape. I have never heard feminists ask these questions. Therefore I don’t take feminists or rape culture seriously.
Now in all fairness despite how all inclusive the theory of rape culture is I do agree that there are certain attitudes that contribute to excusing rape rather than causing it.
For starters, using statistics isn’t your friend when it comes to rape because the only numbers we have are for those rapes that are reported. But I think it’s a pretty big leap from “rape culture exists” to rape is “purely a consequence of culture.” Also, I find it curious that your assumption that “Rape culture advocates are ideologically motivated not empirically motivated” means that you don’t have to listen to them. I’m one of those feminists who doubts statistics and so-called empiric evidence because I never know who gathered the information or what their agenda was. But I really love Peter’s comment, “Yep, you heard it here first: Rapists are just normal men with the opportunity, not seriously disturbed and twisted individuals at all.” It’s true. With so much in our culture that links sex and violence and makes it seem “natural,” it’s no wonder that so many guys link sex and violence in their heads.
You have to admit, even given the fact that rape often goes unreported, you would expect rape accusations to be at least a bit higher in the 50s than now if rape culture really operated in the manner claimed.
The comment about ideological motivation rather than empirical was backed up by evidence in fairness. He did listen to them, then he disproved their point.
That comment was an ironic rephrasing of the paragraph I linked to, not sure if that was clear. Do you really think every man around you is a rapist in training? Again, if rape culture operated in the manner claimed, and rapists were just normal men with an opportunity, women would be raped every time they were alone with a man. It would be literally unavoidable. Back in reality of course, this doesn’t happen and I’ve never raped anyone in my life, despite many opportunities to.
How exactly did you determine how many guys think about sex in the privacy of their own thoughts? And how is linking violence and sex a guy thing? Go to any (hetero) BDSM club you like: pretty equal gender mix.
“you would expect rape accusations to be at least a bit higher in the 50s than”
No, I wouldn’t and neither would anyone who has any idea about how crappy many women’s lives were in the 50s.
The victim-blaming element of rape culture is at least recognised today. In the 50s, marital rape wasn’t illegal. Women who were known not to be “virgins” had a much lower chance of being married– and since women had a really difficult time buying property, getting a loan, getting into a university, finding a job where they didn’t have to quit as soon as they got married (or at the least got pregnant), finding work that paid a living wage, even VOTING– marriage was often considered the ONLY viable option. They really didn’t have many more choices than women in the Middle Ages– who could at least go to a convent and maintain some level of respectability.
Women who divorced their partners– if they could even GET a divorce– were socially ostracised and financially devastated. They could easily lose custody of their children because men almost always had more financial resources to take them to court. Even women whose husbands LEFT THEM FOR ANOTHER WOMEN usually got screwed financially (and in terms of custody) by their former husbands.
So you really think that a lot of women in the 50s were anxious to come forward about being raped? Probably almost as anxious as women living in Muslim societies ruled by Sharia law. Although they might not have been stoned to death, their lives would’ve been ruined, completely– and that’s even before they went to court.
“No, I wouldn’t and neither would anyone who has any idea about how crappy many women’s lives were in the 50s.”
As if life was all that great good for either gender back then.
True women had difficulty working, being educated etc., they weren’t under the same obligation men were. The rules forcing women to give up their job after marriage (in the Irish public service anyway) recognised the general lack of jobs following the war and tried to ensure that as many families as possible had at least one earning partner, rather than some with two and many with none.
Men, as in any other decade, were objectified in terms of their minimal earnings, represented 100% of conscripts, the vast majority of victims of violence and the vast majority of victims of homelessness. Not to mention that husbands who’s wives LEFT THEM FOR OTHER MEN were entitled to no compensation and were often cut off from their children.
If you came here to prove that one gender was or is more oppressed than the other you came to the wrong place, we can trade victimhood back and forth all day and it won’t prove a thing. Gender roles used to be necessary, but they were bad for everyone.
Even if you factor all those things in rape culture still doesn’t explain why reported rape goes up and down at more or less the same rate as any other crime and doesn’t correlate particularly with supposedly more patriarchal eras and cultures.
Damn, typo: “all that great for either gender…”
I “came here” to refute the assertion that “you would expect rape accusations to be at least a bit higher in the 50s ”
And the very idea “that husbands who’s wives LEFT THEM FOR OTHER MEN were entitled to no compensation and were often cut off from their children” in the 50s is completely laughable.
Women who left their husbands in the 50s– even if it was for getting beaten and fearing for their lives– almost always lost EVERYTHING.
Men in the 50s could have a wife, children, mistresses and sex with anyone they wanted with impunity– from social or legal institutions. The majority of married women just had to put up with it.
And I’d like to see the peer reviewed evidence that “reported rape goes up and down at more or less the same rate as any other crime and doesn’t correlate particularly with supposedly more patriarchal eras and cultures.”
However laughable you may find it, it happened. Men weren’t entitled to alimony or reparations if their partners left them and the courts didn’t recognise them as fit parents, often awarding custody of their children to state institutions if the mother wasn’t willing or able to look after them. I think the victims of this found it less than laughable.
Sure, some men did. Most had trouble even taking care of a wife and kids. If you only compare well off men to destitute women its hardly surprising that you conclude women have it worse and men have it better. Try comparing that abandoned woman to a man lying in the gutter because he lost his job and was therefore worthless in the eyes of society. If you can’t compare like with like you can’t make comparisons.
You don’t need to, just look at the crime statistics posted above. Rape goes up and down about as much as any other crime and it doesn’t peak in the 50s or 60s, it peaks in the 90s. Just because gender researchers concentrate on women’s problems isn’t an excuse to ignore evidence.
Yes, to everything Peter said, plus, even setting aside the 50s the argument does not hold for the years from 1993 to now. There is no way a lower percentage of rapes are being reported than in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Not now when we have rape crisis centers on every college campus trying to convince every woman they come in contact with that every mildly unpleasant sexual experience she had was rape.
And let me reiterate the idea that “Rapists are just normal men with the opportunity, not seriously disturbed and twisted individuals at all,” is what rape culture believers say all the time but IT IS CONTRADICTED BY EVIDENCE! I know, for many people here, basing opinions and theories on evidence may seem quaint but it is the only way we can have a reasonable discussion. (For example, what if I said 90% of rape accusations were false. How could you prove me wrong? It’s based on my feelings, after all, just like the theories of rape being under-reported are based on the feelings of people who believe them). Anyway, for those of who do believe evidence is worthwhile, the evidence shows that rape is mostly committed by people who also commit other crimes. That is those with little respect for the rights of other people (men or women) to begin with. I think it is fair to conclude that rapists come mostly from the ranks of psychopaths, sociopaths, those with borderline personalities, and similarly damaged and deranged individuals. Ordinary, decent people ( a category that I hope includes most men and women – but in any case that includes men and women in roughly equal percentages) do not become rapists no matter how much porn they watch or how many rape jokes they hear. Those inclined to rape most likely will be rapists, and will certainly be victimizers of some kind, without ever watching porn or hearing a single rape joke.
The majority of rapes are by people known to the victim. The majority of “date” rapists, husband (and ex-husband) rapists, partner and ex-partner rapists, and a large percentage of others DENY that what they did was rape, even though it fits legal definitions of rape.
The statistics about rape under-reporting are not based on “feelings”. They’re based on people who tell people in the social and counselling professions that they were raped (or raped) but who didn’t go to law enforcement.
And statistics about false rape accusations show that those accusations occur at about the same rate as false accusations of other crimes.
Where DO you people get these ideas?
When you consider that the legal definition of rape has been expanded to ensure that women are always considered victims, even when they perform the same acts on men that would land a man in jail, the complaint that their “victimisers” don’t recognise what they did as rape rings a little hollow. If we got drunk and slept together only one of us could wake up in the morning and call the police (hint, it wouldn’t be me). Even if I felt violated, men can’t be raped because an erection is considered proof of consent.
As for where people get these silly ideas about false accusations, try the results of this peer reviewed paper on for size:
http://www.mediaradar.org/research_on_false_rape_allegations.php
The researcher initially refused to release his results because he couldn’t believe them himself, but when he called three independant experts in his results were verified. Similar studies have found 40 to 50% false reporting rates in civilian populations based on polygraph tests.
The results of the innocence project also show the lie behind the myth of the rape gender.
If I was a victim of rape – real rape, involving violence or the threat of violence, I don’t think the thing I’d find most offensive would be the jokes. I think I would be much more offended by having my experience being trivialized by the watering down of the definition of “rape”. If I experienced the terror of being under the control of a crazed maniac and not knowing if I’d live to see the end of it, I wouldn’t appreciate having my experience compared to someone’s embarrassing moments in hookup history.
“real rape, involving violence or the threat of violence”
And rape culture rears its ugly head without even being aware of what it is.
And rape culture rears its ugly head without even being aware of what it is.
I guess for the True Believer in Rape Culture that is equivalent of the Religious Fundamentalist saying: “Be damned thou, sinner!
try the results of this peer reviewed paper on for size:
http://www.mediaradar.org/research_on_false_rape_allegations.php
OK, you need to look up the definition of “peer reviewed”.
Do I? The paper referred to there was reviewed by a panel of academic peers and published in an academic journal of forensic science.
That fits just about any definition of peer review I can imagine, how exactly do *you* define it? Papers you agree with?
Nothing should be so off limits that we can’t joke about it. The important thing is knowing your audience and actually trying to be funny instead of just mean-spirited.
I don’t think rape jokes are ever funny. Not only are they offensive, but I’ve yet to hear one that has any creative merit that would make it funny even if it wasn’t funny. Its not a case of being prudish or not having a sense of humour. Its just they don’t (IMHO) have any comedic value. Of course most people who tell or laugh at rape jokes don’t approve of rape, but the action of telling a rape joke gives the impression that they do.
There is perhaps a place for telling jokes about rapists, just like anti-racist comedians make fun of members of the KKK.
Humanity is better than rape jokes. So come on guys lets use our imaginations to enjoy some real humour!
The jokes depend on the context and the audience. I find Louis C.K.’s rape jokes hilarious because he makes fun of the situation. In contrast, when Bill Maher jokes about the rape of boys or prison rape, he mocks the victims.
Coincidentally, that tends to be the divide in the gender aspect of rape jokes. Whenever the joke is about the rape of females, the joke is either about the ridiculousness of the situation, the rapist, or the victim’s reaction post rape. When the joke is about the rape of males, the joke tends to be about the boys and men who were raped.
That also points out another aspect of the issue of whether people can joke about rape: the concern is only for female victims. No feminist questions the validity of prison rape jokes or rape jokes about priests, boy scouts, or female teachers.
In my native country, rape or sexual assault of man or women, girl or boy, babies or bestiality are all condemned. Rapes are unheard of. Rape and other types of crime are highly shamed – there is no mixed message of what is appropriate and what is not. Since rape is illegal, so it follows that rape jokes would be vulgar and condemned as well (won’t be thrown in jail or anything). There is no rape culture over there. When the messages are consistent so are human values and moral code of conduct. NorthAmerica lacks consistent messaging – practically in everything. I’m not advocating totalitarian ideals either…just more wholesome ideals?
Freedom of speech tells you it’s okay to rape, rape is funny. Females and feminists secretly wish to be raped. Then on the other side of the coin, we are throwing millions of dollars of our taxes into policing, social programs, public service announcements and advertising to combat these same problems which we allow others to promote and flourish. Sounds ass-backwards to me and self-defeating.
But chaos make the world go-round, right? It create jobs (counselors, police officers, statisticians, health workers blah blah), brings “entertainment” by way of rape jokes/depictions, gives people something to talk about at the water cooler – I heard on the news a 13 year old boy raped a 5 year old girl at McDonald’s! Chaos and deaths help with population control – oh another man got gunned down this week again? A woman was raped and murdered yesterday – lol, that’s old news!
In a country with no free speech, it would be very easy for the government to hide what rapes occur. Depending on the culture, you could simply not call them rape when it comes up. If rape is unheard of, I very seriously doubt that’s because it doesn’t happen, rather nobody talks about it.
Also what on earth is “Females and feminists secretly wish to be raped.”? Eh? There are some women who fetishize the idea, or rather fantasy scenarios where the man “just knows” what she really wants. But this is just another version of what feminists call rape culture, the idea that something that is technically rape can be good for a woman. Idiocy when you say it aloud, but many people think that way, and MANY of the rape jokes mentioned imply that very thought.
I think the bit about “Females and feminists” was her being ironic, but can see how you misread that, I had a bit of a double take when I read it myself.
“Females and feminists secretly wish to be raped.” That’s taken from Encyclopedia Dramatica on their satirizing and glorifying the word rape.
If this type of garbage was directed at a specific celebrity or individual, you can be sure that he/she will sue your pants off and make you pay restitution for slander/libel – this being a crime. Freedom of speech is acceptable to assault across a specific gender, but not to an individual – so not criminally responsible. That’s irony. Our laws are twisted.
My native country doesn’t have rape culture and rarely any rape incidents. It’s a small country and densely populated – word gets around. Everybody knows everyone’s business. The rapist would be found, shamed and most likely beaten up by the victim’s family members to teach the rapist a lesson (the police probably won’t care because rapists are seen as shit of society). If you’re an adulterer there, you would get the same treatment. Rape and adultery are shamed and condemned – nobody glorifies these things over there like we do here in NorthAmerica. There is pressure to be good men and citizens over there and behave by the law. NorthAmerica glorifies bad behavior and lawlessness – goodness is for Mormons who don’t have a life.
Also, there are several pages up there about specific individuals and celebrities. They can’t sue because its clear that the site is a humour site and isn’t intended to be taken seriously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moron_in_a_hurry
Yes, you can get away with murder too. Just say you did that as a joke and did not mean to offend. It’s the fault of that person for taking things too seriously – he/she is to be blamed.
Satire/jokes are forms of harassment if they offend people. There’s an article on GMP addressing that in the workplace. But our laws, like I said are twisted:
It’s unlawful to harass an individual, but it’s perfectly lawful to verbally assault across a specific group/gender under the guise of FREEDOM OF SPEECH, as satire.
Similarly, it’s lawful for the harassed individual to sue the harasser, the individual’s rights are protected; but groups of people targeted by the harasser cannot sue him/her because FREEDOM OF SPEECH protects that individual and not the target group – on the condition that he/she shows a sense of humour about it. No wonder criminals mock our justice system.
No, I don’t think you can actually.
Most jokes offend someone, are all jokes harassment? I would agree that rape jokes in the workplace would constitute harassment: its horribly out of context. Humour sites on the internet aren’t the workplace and anyone going there should be prepared for people not to be serious about things.
Incidentally, if I find your comments offensive can I claim harassment and have you silenced? If so, how would anyone ever express an opinion?
Its unlawful to harass an individual, but its perfectly lawful to tell jokes. I’d respect your position a little more, if not agree with it, were the same outrage being directed at extreme misandry blogs across the internet. As it is, you only seem to think jokes should be censored when you, personally, disagree with them.
Freedom of speech protects everyone, if it only protected men clearly you wouldn’t be here saying your piece. Hate speech is still illegal, but you’d have to prove that the teller of the joke was actually trying to encourage violence rather than, well, tell a joke. In the case of ED I don’t think thats the case.
There’s employment discrimination law, but FREEDOM OF SPEECH law cancels out this law outside of the workplace, IRONIC! Our laws are two-faced.
There are several federal employment discrimination laws, some very well-know and some less so:
- Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination based on color, gender, national origin, pregnancy, race, religion, and sex, including sexual harassment;
- The Civil Rights Act of 1991 provides for monetary damages in cases where there is intentional employment discrimination;
The only time an individual or group is protected from discrimination is when they’re working at a company. Outside of that, it’s dog eat dog world. Anybody and everybody can discriminate to their hearts content, under our Freedom of Speech law, just label it humour and you can get away with it. Laws are clear as mud.
Riiiight, And rape never happens in this native country of yours because noone jokes about it?
Heres a wakeup call: Rape is illegal in the US too. Its also highly shamed, more so than almost any other crime. Try telling a man whos been falsely accused of rape that rapists are accepted in society and you might learn otherwise.
If rape was so accepted and men were all really wannabe rapists, why do convicted rapists have to be separated from the prison population to avoid being murdered?
If rape was so accepted and men were all really wannabe rapists, why do convicted rapists have to be separated from the prison population to avoid being murdered
Ive heard two things about rapists in prison.
1. The younger the victim the more danger they are in.
2. However bad this is in men’s prisons supposedly women’s prisons are even worse on rapists, especially those who raped children.
But since people twist their brains really hard to believe that women “don’t so stuff like”….
In my native country, criminals do not receive government protection; they lose that right for violating the law or committing a crime. Along with that includes shaming and humiliation from families and the general public. These two factors alone are strong deterrents against criminal activity including raping. So literally “rape at your own risk” or commit crime at your own risk. The laws are not there as a safety net to protect criminals; thus the rate of crime is very low or close to nothing. They don’t baby young criminals either; there’s no Young Offenders Act. NorthAmerica is soft on crimes and when crimes are glorified and hate speeches run rampant – voila you create criminals.
Prisoners in NorthAmerica live in luxury compared to some destitute citizens in third world countries, who go garbage picking to find food or find plastics to sell and have to beg to survive. They would love to live in NorthAmerica, commit crime, get sent to prison and get fed 3 nutritious meals a day, watch tv, given an education, earn some money, take part in social activities, have a roof over their head and so on – all on taxpayers money. This is an American dream.
I don’t know if this is still true, but my parents had told me that prisoners in my native country get fed rice with salt. If you’re a prisoner and want to eat anything else, you have to rely on family or friends to visit and bring food to you – so don’t burn any bridges!
I’m missing the connection between this message and the rest of the comments. Is this a response to people talking about prison rapes? What I hear you saying is, sure men are raped in US prisons, but on the whole their lives aren’t so bad. Is that the message?
If so, I suppose the counterpoint would be to say, based on what I got from your messages, that people in your native country are under grinding poverty, but at least no one is ever raped, so it’s not so bad.
That post was to augment another response to someone’s post on here, which didn’t get posted because we have censorship or communists as moderators. That post did not violate any of the commenting policy terms. I see people who post flaming stuff on here and those get posted. One calling another person a moron and so on.
People post a bunch of shit, vile and harassing remarks and comments on CNN.com but CNN doesn’t care, because it’s a public blog and they don’t have communist moderators or over-sensitive writers/journalists. I
The thing is there are so many hard-working, law abiding citizens in the world, especially third world countries who would love to switch places with prisoners in NorthAmerica. Prisoners live in luxury compared to the destitute. Criminals should lose right to citizenship; they should be shipped to an island or to poverty nations so they can appreciate and value democracy in NorthAmerica, and stop pulling shit like crimes/murder.
There should be some kind of exchange program for prisoners, similar to student exchanges. Each prisoner should exchange places with a homeless/destitute person in the third world. This will help with international relations and a bunch of other positive outcomes.
It sounds extreme to say that rape jokes are literally never, ever acceptable in any circumstances. I can imagine people in a rape survivors’ support group joking about their experiences as a way to process and gain power over their experiences. Or for the people in the group to blow off steam. I would find it hard to order them never to joke about rape in that circumstance.
Humor has a lot of social and cultural functions, and it’s not just there to make things acceptable or to minimize the subject or to de-value particular people. Sometimes there’s a catharsis that comes with trying to make a joke about something. Maybe that attempt fails when it’s really hard to find humor in that subject, but that doesn’t mean there’s never any acceptable reason to try.
I can’t help but notice that even with rape jokes there are different standards out there, different levels of taboo, different “rules” implied for different subjects. Maybe there shouldn’t be, maybe there should be, but there are different standards if the victim is male or female.
For example, is there really the same outrage at jokes about male prisoners raping each other? What if the prisoner being raped is a convicted rapist – is there really no poetic justice type humor in that? If we’re honest with ourselves, most of us would have to admit we have different levels of disgust for different kinds of rape jokes.
Oh I get it. Lightbulb moment!
Men aren’t shocked by the rape page on E.D. probably due to all their exposure to graphic, hard-core porn. They’re used to seeing women demeaned, violently treated and verbally assaulted and made fun of – all acceptable and fun in porn, there’s entertainment value.
Because no matter how many times people say it, it can’t POSSIBLY be about free speech, can it Michelle? That possibility doesn’t exist for you.
How much porn have you actually seen? And why did rape still happen long before porn?
Theres racist pages up there too, aswell as pages taking the piss out of racists. Does that mean that the men you suppose write all these pages are both racists and anti-racists? Maybe they’re so used to both black people and white-supremacists being demeaned that they got confused and wrote pages about both?
At any rate, you’re still forgetting that the person running the site is a woman. Where is her shock and outrage? Clearly rape jokes aren’t just a male thing.
Or possibly because they joke about just about everything there. Rape exists where porn doesn’t. The two aren’t connected.
“Oh I get it. Lightbulb moment!
Men aren’t shocked by the rape page on E.D. probably due to all their exposure to graphic, hard-core porn.”
Is that what passes for an epiphany in feminist circles these days?
I think the worst thing is when nobody you know knows that you have been raped and you have to listen to jokes about it, even trying to tell them why it is wrong it is impossible for me to say…it’s not funny, because I have been Raped.
I think feminists and females ought to check out hard-core porn with guys, so we can see what all the fun is about, and become less offended and sensitive about rape and rape culture. Feminists must be overreacting. Mothers, daughters and rape victims must embrace rape culture…this should empower each one of us to better in bed. Plus we’ll gain the adoration of men; well the ones who’ve posted on here…if they’re representative of most men. They might even stuff a hundred dollar bill in our bras…let’s show them we like to be raped!
What planet are you living on? Women *do* look up porn. It doesn’t make them rapists, or rape victims.
Women do watch porn. I personally know several that do.
I think we live in a culture where, since the 1960′s, entertainment has to get constantly edgier and edgier to maintain the same shock value. So you get rape jokes. I suppose the same thing has happened in horror movies and porn. It just gets grosser and more extreme all the time. You watch porn or a slasher film from 20 years ago and it seems riculously tame by today’s standards. I remember being in high school when all our parents went nuts because Prince sang a song about masturbation. Now that song (Darling Nikki) doesn’t seem shocking at all. My prediction: in 20 years, we’ll have something worse than rape jokes to worry about.
I could make the same argument to prove that the united states is turning to communism, or that religion is being systematically wiped out, or that everyone is becoming gay. The 1960s were a low point for free speech in general. That doesn’t mean that because people can make horror films (and theres stuff from three decades ago that is just as graphic as anything today) which show actual violence that theres more actual violence. Look at the violent crime statistics, its all going down. I’m pretty optimistic for the future, and free speech.
Actually, I’m deeply pessimisstic, and not because I have some rosy view of the past. I do think our culture is in the toilet, and getting worse. When people get bored with how extreme the entertainment is today, what’s next? that’s what I wonder.
We’ll see I guess. Violence in the media is going up, but overall violent crime is going down. I’d be inclined to say things are probably getting better.
Something that people seem to be missing is that rape is not always called rape. Rapists rarely call themselves rapists. If they really thought it was wrong they wouldn’t do it! Even victims don’t necessarily call it rape. Some studies have shown up to a quarter of women who can identify a incident in their lives that fits the definition of rape, not all of them actually consider it rape.
The lines between sex and rape get blurred in a so-called “rape culture”. Many women live their lives expecting situations where they are obligated to perform “wifely duties” regardless of what they want. Sometimes they do it for guys who are barely acquaintances, knowing he might get violent, or harm their social life if they say no. Or perhaps pleasing men is just what women are good for in that world.
Here women’s sexual agency is completely ignored. It’s assumed that a man must chase and conquer her. “Play hard to get” is the main piece of dating advice women get because men are apparently sexual predators who love the chase. Certainly a guy who drags a barely conscious girl to a back room is a bastard, but hey…at least he can say he “scored”. The thing that makes a man husband material is how much he is willing to do, pay, and accomplish to win her heart before expecting sex. Some girls will pledge their virginity to their future husband in special ceremonies that emphasize the female need for purity. In the male equivalent, they tell you to avoid ruining the future wives of other men. Of course if a woman does in fact have her own sexual needs, it’s entirely up to the man to satisfy her. Women don’t masturbate nearly as often as men simply because they need the right man to satisfy her. Of course the right man has no need to ask, he simply knows how to satisfy a woman, presumably it requires experience and a big dick. In general, a man with lots of sexual experience has a high status with his friends, and is better in bed. Conversely, a really awesome dude can get all the chicks he wants, but a loser is doomed to virginity, a mark of shame for men. A woman with lots of sexual experience is hated by other women, has few marriage prospects, and probably worse in bed than a virgin.
Just summing up some of the worst ideas about sex in our society. Feminists often talk about a woman’s sexual agency. This concept plays an important role in both getting the sex they do want, and avoiding rape. However mainstream culture ignores this, and opts for the narrative of men chasing women. Supposedly, men are the ones who want sex, and do all the work. Women either resist or relent. Women who are too easy are sluts, but the ones who are hard to get are wife material. etc.
“A woman with lots of sexual experience is hated by other women, has few marriage prospects, and probably worse in bed than a virgin.”
LMFAO. Well, being “a woman with lots of sexual experience” who has loads of women friends whom I love and who love me, who has been married (and been asked MANY times), and being really AWESOME in bed, I’d really love to know where this theory comes from.
I would hope that those of you who get so up in arms about rape jokes are equally vigilant about pages like this: http://www.facebook.com/pages/RadFem-HUB/237868122941729 It may not seem that bad on the surface but its sole purpose is to link to a blog where male infanticide is advocated, and hatemongers like Mary Daly (who wanted to exterminate males until we were only 10% of the population) are celebrated. I have reported that page to Facebook, and the blog itself to WordPress for hate speech and promoting violence, but I have not received, and don’t really expect, any responses.
Whoa. I just read some stuff there and my eyes are falling out of my head. I am not radical anything. I need a bourbon now.
At some level this kind of extremism becomes a parody of itself, and I really can’t tell anymore if it’s meant to be an over-the-top caricature or if it’s sincere. Past a certain point, I guess it doesn’t really matter.
Another great example of what I’ve said before, that the political spectrum curves around on itself – the people far out on the left and far out on the right start to resemble each other. “Get rid of all women!” “No, get rid of all men!” Yawn.
There’s a Facebook group called The Watchers, they condemn all types of hate speeches. This is their mandate:
“This group was set up so that anyone who comes across pages promoting hate speech against any nationality, ethnicity, religious affiliation, gender, sexual orientation, age or disability can post the page URL and call on friends to report the offensive page and its contents. ”
You can “like” and be part of this group at: http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/thewatcherz/
I saw no hate speech or advocation of violence on that page.
And could you post (with a linked source) where Mary Daly said that?
Most of the violence and hatred is hidden from the Facebook page, but if you followed the links to the blog and didn’t see it there, you didn’t look very hard. Start here: http://radicalhub.wordpress.com/2011/10/04/radical-feminism-in-the-21st-century then look at the comments particularly this one: http://radicalhub.wordpress.com/2011/10/04/radical-feminism-in-the-21st-century/#comment-3597
Or for one actually linked to from the Facebook page: http://radicalhub.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/public-porn-users-thy-name-is-male-entitlement/ According to that all men are not only rapists but child molesters too, because there’s no difference between adult porn and child porn according to those sickos.
As for the Mary Daly quote: “If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males.” http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j16/daly.asp?page=3
You can try to weasel her out of that by saying she didn’t explicitly say murder, but what have euphemisms like “evolutionary process” always meant to anyone talking about “decontaminating the Earth” of a group of people.
It’s not “weasel[ing]‘ her out of it to say that she did NOT CALL FOR murder/extermination/etc, but said this “will be accomplished by an evolutionary process”. And I see no mention of 10%.
You people just make it up as you go along. There goes your credibility.
And the Facebook page doesn’t do what you say it does (unlike the misogynistic FB pages that ACTUALLY CALL FOR RAPE)– if you click and click and click again you might get someone’s OPINION that offends you. But that’s not the page.
Really, you MRAs and deniers and patriarchal apologists are not only really REACHING (way outside the bounds of reasonableness and reality), you are just trying to stir up (male) hysteria– to what end? To make men MORE angry with women so they kill, rape, maim, bully, and abuse MORE of us?
What IS your purpose in all these intentional untruths and misrepresentations? Because it’s sure not working towards a better society.
Get over it. We’re NOT going back into the box where you own us and can beat us and murder us and control us with impunity. All of you who are working to return to the privileges of patriarchy (which really aren’t all that privileged either, as many of you point out, inexplicably trying to blame women and feminism for what YOUR support of patriarchy does to YOU), wake up.
It’s not going to happen. You’re just going to be miserable for your life and then you and your sadly distorted view of the world will die out.
Every day more of us are born and more of you die. We be many and you be few.
“Every day more of us are born and more of you die. We be many and you be few.”
The Men’s Rights Movement is a reactionary force. It’s about philosophy, not numbers.
The more Feminism pushes the envelope beyond the realm of equality into supremacy, the more powerful the MRM will become. Your mislead belief that the men’s movement undermines women’s rights is a clear demonstration of the close-mindedness and deception that feminist rhetoric engulfs its followers with.
Attributing the re-establishment of pride in masculinity to violence – as you just have – is exactly the kind of fallacy that helps the MRM grow.
The ‘us against them’ mentality that you’ve evidently embraced only digs the wedge deeper between the sexes; it does you no favours – the MRM is fuelled by it. There’s no precedent for having men collectively, systematically turn against their opposite gender in the past – but no adversary has survived or can survive the collective will of antagonised men.
This isn’t a war between the genders. It’s a war of philosophy. A war between liberty and pseudo-equality. A war between enlightenment and subservience. If someone has to die as you suggest? Feminism – the breeder of perpetuated victimisation, division, denigration, narcissism and entitlement – would become a true victim.
If the MRA trolls that post here and constantly attack Hugo and other voices seeking to create dialogue about REAL equality constitutes the Men’s Rights philosophy, then it has the same credibility as the Republican field in the US presidential campaign at the moment.
No feminism that I have ever been a part of seeks “supremacy”. This misconception is born of patriarchal values that see a hierarchical social order as the ONLY one– ie, that if one is NOT dominant, one MUST be subservient.
The problem with this world view is that it’s just not accurate or real.
Feminism is about the rights of women (and by extension, all people) to be able to live, safely, without fear of abuse or harassment, in a social structure where ALL contributions are valued equally and fairly (and compensated equally and fairly). Where the right to sexual agency is not based on gender but on personal choice. Where no one is shamed by her/his ambitions and desires– be they professional, intellectual or sexual– based on her/his gender and sexual preference.
Where we all have the full rights and responsibilities of living our lives by our own choices without fear of repression, as long as we don’t repress anyone else.
To try to make feminism about anything else is to spread misinformation and throw gasoline on the fire of the “gender wars”.
I realise that it’s probably as futile as trying to reason with a brick wall or a drone; the irony is there for all to see – in your surmising what you understand feminism to represent – the moral and noble – right after sugar-coating the hate-speech emanating from deep within the bowels of the beast you worship.
The fact that you’ve attempted to rationalise a proclamation made by a prominent feminist that effectively asserted men to be a “contamination” should tell you – and all who’ve read your regurgitation of hollow feminist rhetoric – how detached you are from what is “accurate or real” (your own words).
Suicide is one of the leading causes of death among men aged between ten and fifty years of age.
When Movember – the public awareness movement bringing the issues of men’s cancer and depression to the fore – began getting a little bit of exposure amongst the sea of foundations for women’s social and health issues, what was feminism’s response? Movember was “sexist” because women weren’t able to contribute to the movement with the growth of facial hair.
And you have the audacity to claim that feminism is inclusive and anti-repressive? It’s Marxism with a dress and a smile. Feminism doesn’t open up boundaries, it inverts and then reinforces them with a vengeance.
I have no doubt that you’re being completely sincere. I’m sure that you genuinely believe that you’re apart of something righteous and progressive, for if you were to confront the narcissism saturating the movement that has embraced you, you wouldn’t be able to glance at yourself in the mirror.
Equality is a worthy goal, and I do believe we’ll get there someday.
But first, feminism will have to die out so REAL progress can be made.
Full quote:
WIE (Interviewer): Which brings us to another question I wanted to ask you. Sally Miller Gearhart, in her article “The Future—If There Is One—Is Female” writes: “At least three further requirements supplement the strategies of environmentalists if we were to create and preserve a less violent world. 1) Every culture must begin to affirm the female future. 2) Species responsibility must be returned to women in every culture. 3) The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately ten percent of the human race.” What do you think about this statement?
Mary Daly: I think it’s not a bad idea at all. If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males. People are afraid to say that kind of stuff anymore.
I guess it would be cool with you for someone were to say, “If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of Jews, Blacks, Native Americans, Disabled People, etc.” And why wouldn’t it? All of those groups contain MEN! But what if someone said “If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of females”? Would you be as cavalier about that?
The Facebook pages “calling for rape”, like the Encyclopedia Dramatica page, and all of the stand up comedy routines discussed here were a JOKE! They may have been offensive, inappropriate, in poor taste, etc. but there was never any indication they were meant to be taken seriously. While the comment on the blog calling for ,b>THE MURDER OF BABY BOYS which was written by one of that blog’s primary contributors appears to be very serious. If you think it was a joke, make that argument, but don’t just dismiss it.
I can see you’re upset that the ideological foundation that keeps you living as a pampered princess is being exposed. I know that it’s not easy to accept the fact that you may some day you may have to accept adult responsibilities if you want keep the right to be treated like an adult. But the sooner you accept it the better off you will be.
Click and click again? So because the hatred is two clicks away (and it is literally only that) the first link doesn’t count? So white supremacists should be able to have a page linking to their blogs from FB because the group page doesn’t have “we hate blacks” on the cover? All prejudice is opinion, it doesn’t make it ok. If you’re against the rape joke like pages and you agree that FB is an inappropriate forum for sexism (as I do), then you have to extend that to all sexism, even when it privileges you.
“Really, you MRAs and deniers and patriarchal apologists are not only really REACHING (way outside the bounds of reasonableness and reality), you are just trying to stir up (male) hysteria– to what end? To make men MORE… et cetera ad odium”
You really aren’t in a position to be accusing others of hysteria. Stop the ad hominems and name calling and we’ll talk.
They also had a page about feminist manifestos which paid homage to Valerie Solanos (SCUM manifesto). I didn’t know feminists, even radical ones, ever took her seriously. I’m not going back to retrieve the link, that place is scary, its on the first page if anyone wants it. In another article a woman claimed that women never harm men. Oh! And denial is a tactic rapists use to get out of jail. Because being accused of a crime means that you’re guilty, unless you’re a woman in which case you’re being oppressed.
“denial is a tactic rapists use to get out of jail”
No, I’m talking about studies done on men who have not been “caught”– who will self-report to raping as long as the word “rape” is not use– but their behaviour constitutes the legal definition of rape.
“If a survey asks men, for example, if they ever “had sexual intercourse with somone, even though they did not want to, because they were too intoxicated (on alcohol or drugs) to resist your sexual advances,” some of them will say yes, as long as the questions don’t use the “R” word.
[here the writer cites two PEER REVIEWED STUDIES]
“These look to me to be the best available data on who the rapists are who have not been caught and incarcerated — which is the vast, vast majority.”
The studies show that between 9% and 13% of men committed rape or attempted rape and were willing to admit to their behaviour as long as the word “rape” wasn’t used.
Seems the stratification of “real rape” doesn’t fit comfortably with the LEGAL definition of rape (ie, engaging in sexual behaviour with someone without her consent– which BTW cannot be given if the person is intoxicated or drugged).
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
Funny how her consent can’t be given if she’s intoxicated or drugged, but if <i.he is equally, or more, intoxicated and drugged he’s responsible for everything that happens. I agree someone who is passed out, can’t give consent, but “intoxicated or drugged” could mean slightly tipsy and people in that condition are held responsible for their actions, unless they are women having sex.
I agree, the legal definition is completely out of whack with actual rape.
If legal protection were similarly extended to intoxicated men and mobilised against women who deliberately mischaracterise their use of contraception you might have a point. But its not. Rape is defined as something men do to women and male victims don’t count since their agressors were the same gender. An equality movement that doesn’t campaign for equal responsibility as well as equal protection is campaigning for less than equality.
When rape is normalized in everyday acceptance such as cracking rape jokes, that says to the uneducated majority that anything rape related is funny and a social norm to mock:
http://www.newser.com/story/136325/somalias-rising-woe-mass-rape.html
Somalia’s Rising Woe: Mass Rape
Aid workers can’t remember the last time so many women were being raped
- See where so far 67% of readers think stories of rape are “hilarious” vs. 33% “depressing” —- THAT IS WHAT NORMALIZING RAPE DOES.