Ever just wished feminists would admit that some women DO only like “bad boys”? Melissa Fabello not only admits it, she explores why this phenomenon exists.
It happens invariably – and innocently enough – the question that makes all feminists cringe because we know that what will follow is a Nice-Guy-Syndrome-Friend-Zone-Arrgh-Wtf rant.
But why do some women go for a**holes?
I see you. I see you cringing.
But when I off-handedly tweeted the other day that I was working on this article, something unexpected happened.
I was barraged by an onset of tweets. Men thanked me for taking the question on, because they’ve been waiting to get a real answer. And women wrote in to say that they really needed validation on this topic to help explain their own lives and relationships. And suddenly I realized that this article is really actually needed.
So why do some women go for a**holes?
Here’s why—we’re told to.
Now let’s break it down through the lens of something that is familiar to us.
Four Boxes Theory
The Four Boxes of Gendered Sexuality is a theory that we, as feminists, are already familiar with, even if we don’t know it by name. In essence, it’s an expansion of the Virgin/Whore Complex, which posits that women can either be good at womanhood (by being an awesome wife and mother and having a sexuality that is saved for the “right” men) or horrible at it (by being an outspoken, brazen slutty slut-slut).
This accounts for two of Crane and Crane-Seber’s four boxes: The Good Girl—who is subordinate, dependent, and passive—and The Bad Girl—who is independent, educated, and sexually liberated. Embedded in this dichotomy is the idea that it is more socially acceptable to be the former.
But men, too, are forced into boxes. The Tough Guy—aggressive, sexual, restricting, and stoic—is our social ideal. The Sweet Guy—intellectual, emotional, artsy, and cultured—on the other hand, is considered a sort of failed masculinity.
And we’re taught from early on—just like we are with women and femininity—that what society wants in our men is the former, not the latter.
The pressure to represent a sort of gendered perfection is on both women and men. And more importantly (at least, to the aims of this article), it must be noted that these gender ideals are imprinted on all of us.
Boys, while they’re being taught to play with trucks instead of dolls, pick up on the fact that women are supposed to be subservient and quiet. And girls, while trying on Mom’s high heels, learn that men should be domineering and violent.
A Crisis in Masculinity
The truth is we shouldn’t be asking why some women date bad guys. We should go to the root of the problem first.
Why are men socialized to be assholes? And why does society applaud and encourage that behavior in men, while stifling more enriching and healthy traits like empathy and good communication?
The problem, really, starts with the fact that what’s considered “masculine” in our culture is dominance, aggression, prowess, competition, abuse, restriction, argumentativeness, control, and violence.
Also known as being an asshole.
Men who are able to get in touch with their feelings (geez, and even cry every once in a while!) and be an attentive lover actually make better partners than the hegemonic hyper-masculine male because of that openness and sensitivity.
But we stifle those behaviors early on, the very first time that we utter to them that “boys don’t cry,” and punish our sweet guys by telling them to “man up,” implying that they’re less of a man when they emote or show an interest in humanities.
Thus, the message that we’re getting across (to men and women alike!) is that only domineering men are “real” men – the ones that you want to be or be with.
Opposites Attract
One of the most frustrating problems that comes out of the idea that people are only allowed to be categorized in one of two ways (as “feminine” or “masculine”) is that it pegs femininity and masculinity as opposite.
And because, culturally, we associate femininity with women and masculinity with men, then we’re also brought up to believe that men and women are different, that we do not share the same traits.
So what do we need in order to achieve balance in our relationships?
Each other.
Which means that who we’re with says something about who we are. Namely, that we are the opposite of whomever we’re dating.
That is according to this age-old idea that opposites attract, if I am dating a masculine man, then I must, in theory, be a feminine woman. I’m dating the masculine ideal, so I, in turn, must be the feminine ideal. He’s emotionless and physically strong, and I’m a damsel in distress – just like we’re supposed to be. We both win. And we achieve balance.
So while, on the one hand, women go for alpha-males because we’re socialized to believe that’s what we want, on the other hand, it’s because it says something about who we are. Think of the ideal, All-American image of the football player with the cheerleader. Perfect man + perfect woman = perfect couple. Perfect couple – perfect man = perfect woman.
So Now What?
Well, for starters, it would be great if we could re-conceptualize masculinity. We could also stop adhering to gender boxes altogether.
But since it takes a lot of time, energy, and participation to change culture, here are three things that you can do personally to question and call attention to this:
1. Distinguish between someone who is hegemonically hyper-masculine and someone who is abusive.
It’s kind of like squares and rectangles—someone who is abusive is adhering to the hegemonic mold, but someone who is “masculine” by social definition is not necessarily dangerous.
If you think that you or someone you know is in an abusive relationship, then please redirect here.
But remember, just because they’re not abusive doesn’t mean they’re good for you.
2. Be careful with the gendered language that you use around children.
They are sponges. They soak up everything that you say. Tell the young boys in your life that it’s okay to cry, and that it’s not okay to act violently.
Even though the outside world is teaching them to adhere to gender roles, you can help them think critically about these messages and develop their own individualized sense of masculinity and humanity.
3. Be cognizant of your relationship choices and actively ask yourself if your partner is what’s best for you.
This goes for everyone, always, all the time. But within the context of this article— don’t accept that a male partner who is withholding emotion, telling you what to do, or unable to manage anger is just “boys being boys.”
Because it’s not. It’s “men being the men that they think they’re supposed to be.” Ask for more. From your partners and from yourself. Men are capable are so much more, even if society says they’re not.
I can’t tell you why you’re attracted to the kinds of people that you are. But what I can tell you is that our sense of gender roles and expectations is deeply ingrained.
And it’s worth taking a closer look at. Your happiness and relationships you’re in are worth you taking a closer look.
Originally appeared at Everyday Feminism
Melissa A. Fabello is a Contributing Writer for Everyday Feminism, a feminist blogger and vlogger, as well as an online peer sex educator, based out of Philadelphia. She is a second-year graduate student, working on an M.Ed. in Human Sexuality. She can be reached on Twitter @fyeahmfabello.
Photo courtesy of Flickr/grenade
As usual, you’re deluded, but I do give you latitude because, as always, I’ve had a crush on you… just something about Melissa Fabello… cute. More to the point: a core tenant of feminism is absolution of any accountability for anything, including how you feel. I could write an essay on that alone. No, your attraction to bad boys is not attributed to an external locus of control. It is in your genes. Attraction is no more a moral decision for you than it is for us. You are hardwired to get tingles for men who assume a position of… Read more »
[I don’t know if anyone’s said this yet. I haven’t read all the comments.] People may be getting the cause and effect backwards. Maybe it’s not that assholes/bitches are more attractive, it’s that attractive people are more likely to become assholes/bitches. On some level, some people are just inherently attractive, maybe even independently of how they behave. Maybe it’s physiology, symmetry, pheromones, psychic vibration, whatever. I know, being sexy is supposed to be about confidence, and everyone is supposed to be beautiful, and attraction is socially/culturally constructed, all the feel-good things we tell the young and impressionable, but some people… Read more »
My message was a little heteronormative, now that I think about it. I wonder if there is a similar phenomenon within same-sex dating — men attracted to “bad boys”, women attracted to “bad girls”? How much is the dynamic there the same and how is it different?
I’m not exactly sure what constitutes the definition of a “bad boy” these days, but I will say this: In my experience good boys, bad boys, middle-of-the-road boys, preppies, jocks, goth dudes, whatever–no man ever gets laid without paying a price. The same can be said of women. Every sexual encounter comes with a consequence for one or the other or both partners, no matter how casual the intent. I’ve caused suffering, experienced suffering, contributed to the suffering of someone I had no idea would be affected by an encounter–a boyfriend back home, a husband, a friend left alone on… Read more »
I consider myself a bit of a connoisseur of stories written online, mostly because I’m a masochist and love to torture myself, I guess. Most of these stories (I don’t suffer through fanfiction, God, I don’t hate myself that much) are written by a younger demographic than me, teenage girls mostly. We have some seriously poisonous ways we look at dating in our culture. I wrote a story about a drug lord and a woman he hires as his escort. He treats her like crap. He hits her. He degrades her. He orders her bodyguard to beat her up when… Read more »
@wanda
“I love reading romance but usually cannot because of all the poisonous crap that gets written down.”
You wouldn’t mean like that hyper-popular ’50 Shades of Gray’ series , would you?
There is another reason some women choose “A$$holes”. They know the guy is an a$$hole and know he will act like it in public and she will get to play the victim and get to pour her heart out to her friends about how much she is hurt. One of my wifes friends is like this.
This whole article is absurd. The author of this article seems to be firmly determined to place to take put the responsiblity of women making bad choices in men and following consequences on the shoulder of men and society in general. If women are going for those not so nice gentlemen, (who are being referred to an orifice at the rear of a certain beast of burden), and are suffering as a consequence of it, then they have only themselves to blame. Society is not forcing or even encouraging them to do so, on the contrary, in lot of circumstances… Read more »
Boy, threads like this actually make me appreciate the fact that I’m old! So, if I grasp today’s lesson, if you’re a ‘nice guy’ in your early 20’s , just hang in there, spend your weekends with ‘Rosie’ and her 5 sisters and eventually, in 10 years or so, when the girls are ready to settle down, they’ll be checking you out! No thanks. I think I’ll just be an ‘asshole and ‘get some’ now if you don’t mind!
I may have missed it in the many comments, but it needs to be said again. Bad boys are bad for a reason. They’re the ones doing most of the misogyny, sexual harassment, sexual assaults, and domestic violence. Just keep that in mind when you’re going for the next bad boy. I’d rather not pick up another badly beaten young women by the side of the road asking me that question that I just can’t answer. “Why did he do this?”
One thing that’s significant here is that bad guys “market” more than nice guys. Nice guys are likely to sulk or be passive after a rebuff, but bad guys are on to the next target of opportunity. I agree that BGs become withholding after they’ve hooked the woman, but they’re out there more.
@Hank
Most so called “Bad Boys” that I knew also had a very wide range when it came to their so called standards. In my experience if things didnt quite go as planned with the hottie in the club, they rarely, if ever, went home alone. Interesting that you point out the sulking part when it comes to the so called “Nice Guys”, I guess flexibility would be another trait lacking.
@John Gottman T… “Most so called “Bad Boys” that I knew also had a very wide range when it came to their so called standards” The same goes for the women who are screwing them too. Right? If the women had higher standards, they would not be screwing the bad boys to begin with. I market and sell (persuade) on a daily basis. So, getting rejected is part of my game….Yes, many people do not handle rejection well. The worst thing one can do (man or woman) is to take it personally. Just go on to next one. That’s what… Read more »
@Hank, Yes, you are correct. They are getting the desired results because they know they are favored by women over the nice guys. Would not you be out there more often too? I had a bad boy who worked for me.He even had a live-in girlfriend !(she is now his wife). He is still up to the same thing. But, she loves him. He was banging women left and right. He personally told me that in his view, “most women are not worth a damn”. His words. Not mine. I was offended because he was insulting his mother, sister….But, women… Read more »
Jules, not for nothing, I’ll bet from what I’ve seen in life, that this guy you’re talking about was ‘well hung’.
The idea that seems to be floating around here is that men cant get sex as easily as women. For the most part I think that is a bald face lie. Now, if you were to say I cant get sex with the women “I want”, then you might be on to something. The truth of the matter is no matter how much I wanted to be an NFL quarterback my 5’8 frame(on a good day) just wasnt going to make the grade. I think maybe some gentlemen out here need to remind themselves of that when they go looking… Read more »
@John Gottman T… “The idea that seems to be floating around here is that men cant get sex as easily as women. For the most part I think that is a bald face lie.” Then how do you explain the explosive growth in porn and the sex trade? CNBC did a special on prostitution. They looked at several segments: street, escorts, high end call girls (some with Ivy League degrees). Most of the clients were married men (not surprised). But, what many women found rather baffling was that of the single men, most were younger and decent looking. The prostitutes… Read more »
“The idea that seems to be floating around here is that men cant get sex as easily as women. For the most part I think that is a bald face lie.”
Oh do tell of the many women complaining of not enough sex from their partners and how hard it is for them to find casual sex. Do tell how men can get sex as easy as women (without paying), I’d love to know.
@Archy
Change your standards. I will reiterate, sex is not the issue, sex with who you “want” may be one. Funny thing is, most nice guys(who dont fit the bill as a bad boy) dont want sex with “nice women” either. By and large they pick women who are out of their league(as in the women arent attracted to them) and then they bitch about being rebuffed. Go figure.
What standards? The only standard is awake, able to consent, of legal age, female. I use to call myself a nice guy and I wanted sex with “nice women”, I had the hugest crush on the sweetest woman in school. If women aren’t attracted to them means they are out of their league then I’d say the problem most nice guys are complaining about is that they are not attractive to most women, I believe other commenters here have been saying women’s standards are higher for attraction (not sure I agree). Personally I think less women are into casual sex,… Read more »
John T
The average looking woman can obtain sex way more easily than an average looking man.
Unattractive men who feel they’re entitled to sex with hot cheerleaders only exist in Teen movies and sitcoms. Its hard enough to attract ordinary looking women.
Yeah really, an average looking woman walks into a bar (mostly male clientel) and lets it be known she wants sex. An average looking man walks into a bar (mostly female clientel) and says he’s looking for NSA sex. Unless the man’s driving a Porshe with ‘Benjamins’ falling out of his pockets, who do you think is going to be more successfull?
@Tim Parsons
I think the Stones said it best.
“You cant always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you just might find, you get what you need”
🙂
Actually John T., reading all of this reminds me of some other ‘Stones” songs, ‘Some Girls’ and ‘Beast of Burden’!
I see a few dynamics coming to the fore in this conversation. 1.) A significant non-zero amount of women choosing “bad boys” for sex/excitement/validation in their 20s, then seeking a “nice guy” for comfort and emotional connection in their 30s. The problem with this is that it imposes an immense social cost on nice guys. Women are in effect asking a significant non-zero amount of nice guys, truly nice guys that don’t see other human beings as means to an end or practice dummies and legitimately seek a committed relationship, to wade through an involuntarily celibate desert for a decade.… Read more »
“1.) A significant non-zero amount of women choosing “bad boys” for sex/excitement/validation in their 20s, then seeking a “nice guy” for comfort and emotional connection in their 30s. The problem with this is that it imposes an immense social cost on nice guys. Women are in effect asking a significant non-zero amount of nice guys, truly nice guys that don’t see other human beings as means to an end or practice dummies and legitimately seek a committed relationship, to wade through an involuntarily celibate desert for a decade.” I dont know, yes and no. Lots of “bad girls” incentive the… Read more »
Mr Supertypo: I disagree, usually young people get their and their experiences they tend to relax and look for more serious things. They dont keep party. At a certain point they change direction and grow up. And this is also true for the sex, if you got in your 20′s all the sex you can dream of, in the later years you look more for quality than quantity. Then the exotic male/female, is less appalling. In synthesis, at young age people, male and female, tend to experiment around, in later years they know what they like (they have the experiences).… Read more »
@Gambit… “Does anyone honestly believe she will be aroused enough by the last man standing to give him the completely healthy and normal sex life he deserves (yes, deserves)?” NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I SPEAK FROM EXPERIENCE. This is why this whole romantic love narrative that we a taught to believe in is a grand farce. The reality is married women, in general, do not treat their husbands well sexually. But, they want their emotional needs met. So, the women get to sex their asses of in their 20s and then in their 30s they seek a partner, soul mate,… Read more »
Guilty! But I’m learning. Finished products only from now on!
Some women, and some men, are drawn to people they see as projects. One reason that some women are drawn to assholes is that some of these women are convinced that they can change the asshole or can redeem him somehow. This is probably a minor explanation, but it should be noted that some women seem to be drawn to jerks because they are convinced that they can transform them from jerks into something else. Or, they ignore the asshole qualities because they are convinced that he will “settle down” after a while or is just “going through a phase.”… Read more »
One of the arguments here, as I understand it, is that women are drawn to assholes sometimes because many women have absorbed the dominant gender ideas in which they were raised. That’s a perfectly plausible explanation, but one problem with that is that there’s not a strict correlation between “traditionally feminine women” and “women who are drawn to assholes.” You would expect that the more traditional the woman’s sense of femininity, the more likely she would be hooked up with an asshole, but that’s probably not the case. There are plenty of fairly traditional-gender-role-embracing women who are repelled by obnoxious… Read more »
About your statement on gender roles and tradition I disagree; because I hardly believe the family teaches small girls to hook up with a asshole who beat them up and drag them in all kind of bad stuff. They learn to find a good man to marry. So they instead either go for the opposite or they resort to their own gender (college lesbians) as way to free themselves by the oppressive patriarchal values. As I see it, (some) women who are drawn to bad boys is a way to rebel to the society and their uprising, especially young women.… Read more »
My theory is that girls are barred from traditional forms of adolescent thrill chasing (getting in fights, games of chicken, drunkenly jumping off roofs, because that’s all seen as boy stuff) and so because they’re not given another outlet for risky behavior in adolescence, a dangerous boyfriend is a way to get your urge to put yourself in danger out of the way, in a way that doesn’t put you too outside your gender role.
I think it’s more to do that a girl has fewer opportunities to get into a good old fashioned fight than a boy.
yes whats the carousel? Im curious to….
I’m shocked – shocked I tell you – that the comments thread has turned into a recitation of every lame, tired manosphere trope out there.
Where’s the carousel? Won’t someone mention the carousel?
What’s the carousel!?
@ Joanna
The “cock carousel” refers to how women, when they’re in their 20s or younger, jump from alpha male douchebag to alpha male douchebag, all while ignoring nice, decent guys who would actually be willing to commit.
They happily ride the carousel in their 20s, but once they reach their late 20s/early 30s and realize that they’re past their prime, they look for a nice guy to settle down with in order to get support and security.
So the theory goes.
There’s a large degree of truth to the theory, but I don’t think they’re as promiscuous as depicted. As one British writer put it, American women have a reputation for promiscuousness that is thoroughly undeserved.
Ah, most of us have ridden that ride. Don’t guys ride the “crazy chick train” as well? As was mentioned above, that’s largely part and parcel of the “young and stupid” stage that many people go through. I have done an awful lot of learning about myself and my sexuality with men who were not suitable relationship partners, but offered me great lessons. I went through a stage when I regretted that period, but now that I am patently “old,” I realize that it was an important part of my figuring out what I wanted and didn’t want in a… Read more »
@Alyssa Royse… “What’s wrong with having sex with someone you have no interest in having a relationship with?” Nothing. But why does it so often have to be one type of man – the bad boy? That is what irks me. It is like you women somehow have a monopoly on what YOU think is good for ALL men. Sex for the sake of sex is OK with bad boy but no so with nice guy. Why? We are all men. The last time I checked we all desired and loved sex. “Most of the assholes I know are still… Read more »
Nothing. But why does it so often have to be one type of man – the bad boy? That is what irks me. Actually that’s not what irks me. What irks me is that they have sex with those types of guys then turn around and complain about how they are such jerks or how they are bad or how they don’t treat women right. It is like you women somehow have a monopoly on what YOU think is good for ALL men. Sex for the sake of sex is OK with bad boy but no so with nice guy.… Read more »
For what it’s worth, I feel like I’m constantly listening to my guy friends complain about the “crazy chicks” they’re hooking up with freely and complaining about while perfectly nice women – though maybe less conventionally hot and contrived – are unable to get a date. I don’t think this works just one way. Seriously. I will never understand why guys go for the crazy chicks, but when I ask guys why, they tell me “because they’re good in bed.” This is a two way street. Which is why I think we need to separate out the “kinds” of sex… Read more »
For what it’s worth, I feel like I’m constantly listening to my guy friends complain about the “crazy chicks” they’re hooking up with freely and complaining about while perfectly nice women – though maybe less conventionally hot and contrived – are unable to get a date. I don’t think this works just one way. Seriously. I will never understand why guys go for the crazy chicks, but when I ask guys why, they tell me “because they’re good in bed.” This is a two way street. I’ll agree that it happens both ways. But as a guy here is how… Read more »
@Alyssa Royse “As far as I can tell, the good guys usually win in the end.” I scoff at the notion. Seriously. When he does “win” he usually get a woman who now wants to place all kinds of damn emotional preconditions on him for sex. This is just what makes me seethe with anger. How has the nice guy won? Only a woman would say such. He ends up with a shitty sex life and not much else to show. It just is not worth it, at all. I simply despise the notion that I am being treated as… Read more »
Dude, I’m 23, married at 22 to a good man, and let me tell you, my gorgeous amazing, kind wonderful husband, gets miraculous, amazing mind blowing sex every night, blowjobs whenever, and I’m an ex stripper, current fetish model and the primary winner, so if you want to whine about women, and feminists and anything else, keep that in mind.
Madeira
Let me explain to you how your situation is different.
In your situation you would ALSO have considered your husband for a fling or casual sex.
The problem many men are referring to is the fact that many women marry men they wouldnt have considered for casual sex or fling but married due to their ‘other’ noble qualities. And that is effed up.
Just look at Adrians comment above.
@Maderia…
Talk to me when you’re 30 with a couple of kids and grown bored with hubby…..
Right now, you’re “too new to rate.” Sorry.
Funnily enough the “crazy” women I know are not conventionally attractive, and most of the nice women I know are actually pretty damn beautiful, some are models. I stepped into the twilight zone I think, just a pity the nice ones I know are married:P
In my (admittedly limited) experience, the stereotype that crazy women are fantastic sex partners is not a universal truth. Don’t believe the hype. Or, no matter how hot the sex is, that may not be enough to outweigh the rest of the insanity.
@Danny, “When men do that it’s called “sowing one’s wild oats” and if frankly looked down upon. But when women do it they are just “daring to be sexual”. (I know it’s not that clear cut down the middle but there are very strong messages to that effect.)” Very few men I know of get to “sow their wild oats.” It’s always the same 15-20% of men whom women find universally or conventionally attractive. Some of which are bad boys. So, Mr. Nice is just suppose to “hang” while the woman enjoys herself? Why on earth would I want such… Read more »
No, most of us do not….It’s a privilege for those with a lot of sexual attractiveness, a mix of luck and the confidence n mindset to do so. There are many men here who probably never had women approach them, got rejected a lot, maybe had at most 1-3 partners in their 20’s. I’ve had one partner so far and I’m in my late 20’s, there’s no crazy chick carousel for me, I have enough trouble finding 1 single woman here. I guess I could point out your “privilege” in attractiveness if you had multiple partners in your 20’s. Realize… Read more »
This archy.
Why most guys complain is probably this reason alone.
The innability to get the same chances to sex that women can.
You can twist this in so many ways but this is it.
Me personaly is annoyed of the laziness of women. If you acctually like the guys. Put your fucking back into it and seduce him back.
Women that go for bad boys usually are the ones that are bad in bed. Thats why they need a guy that can take charge. so that they don’t need to do SOME of the work.
…well on that note it wouldn’t kill men to show a little skin and look sexier, long hair, a little makeup and some leather pants go a long way if you ask me. Women are expected to do an insane amount of work to be deemed “acceptable”. Did you know that in 15th century Germany when men wore miniskirts and tights (essentially) and women’s clothing was very frumpy by comparison the stereotypes about gender were reversed (men wanted to settle down and get commitment, while all women wanted was sex) Personally because I like pretty men who put as mucb… Read more »
I don’t think many women realize the work that men put into “looking good”. See for men not only does it require work on our bodies such as shaving, working out, it requires work on career n making decent incomes to be seen as sexy in many cases.
For casual sex? I don’t think so… then again, I’ve only ever dated/wanted impecunious artists. Men aren’t obligated to shave their bodies, and men are societally expected to wear their hair short (which is actually, according to science, inherently unsexy). Men’s clothing is loose/doesn’t show much skin, and women wear makeup while men don’t, all of this adds up to men not pandering to the female gaze enough for casual sex to be easily obtainable.
You are one woman, I’ve heard women tell me how sexy is it to have body hair and others tell me how disgusting it is. Who do we dress for? Who do we style for? Men have major social pressures to shaving their face though, and also pressure to NOT shave their legs, etc (homophobia). Men often do try to show off for female gaze, or what they assume female gaze to be….how many women do you see consuming “bulking” and protein shakes whilst trying to make their muscles look huge? Both genders spend a lot of time preening themselves… Read more »
Madeira You know if men could have a fool proof guaranteed FORMULA that could get us female attention, turn on women and get us laid, it would’ve been an effin SCIENCE by now. Some of you women try to portray that MAKEUP is a burden for you and men have it easy. I say it is a huge advantage to you women. By putting on makeup, mediocre looking plain faces can become significantly more attractive and appealing to men. We men dont have makeup. We cant do anything to make our faces more attractive and aesthetically pleasing. Only the genuinely… Read more »
Madeira
Women dont have to be anything special to obtain casual sex. What can explain why average looking women who are mediocre in every aspect can expect to be approached by men for casual sex?
Because due to the amount of work women are expected to do to look “presentable” by societal standards, the average for women is higher then for men.
In society’s where men put more effort than women into their appearance, the stereotype is almost universally reversed (fifteenth century germany for example, the men wore sheer hose and short short tunics, whereas women’s garments showed next to nothing, and men were stereotypically all about commitment while women supposedly were all about sex)
Bullshit. Women that wear no makeup and boring clothes will still probably get approached for casual sex far more than men doing the same. Women seem to overestimate the importance of makeup n clothing….
I dont know about the 15th century Germany, but I do know that if an average looking young woman who does little beyond taking a bath, putting on a $10 jeans and a top, and making a pony tail will get more action than an average looking young guy who does more or less the same. Even over-weight, chubby, mediocre looking women can get laid easily. Even if they dont have a good education and are struggling financially. Even if they are insecure (they dont require ‘confidence’ either’. Interestingly young women with low self esteem often end up getting laid… Read more »
The other thing that I think comes into play is women’s socially programmed fear of men, we’re told our entire lives “Don’t get raped, don’t get raped” so sex with a strange guy can be anxiety provoking. I’m bisexual, and have found it’s ultimately, absurdly easy for me (a woman) to have casual sex with women. I can go into a straight bar, do nothing but sit at the bar and hang out, and within half an hour or so I could have a lady I don’t know diddling me in the bathroom (I decline these offers, but it does… Read more »
That’s a problem that women are taught to fear men so much. There are plenty of single guys that won’t harm a woman but get no play partially over those fears probably. I wonder what would happen if we could guarantee safety and no risk of rape, sti’s, maybe have a robot watching guard, super condoms or sti’s get eliminated. Would the world have 1000x more sex?
But, are you not a stripper?
I think that kind of “skews” your outlook a bit.
Just saying.
Ex stripper, and please enlighten me as to how that skews my outlook?
@Alyssa Royse: Ah, most of us have ridden that ride. Don’t guys ride the “crazy chick train” as well? MOST of us? Do you really think so? As was mentioned above, that’s largely part and parcel of the “young and stupid” stage that many people go through. I have done an awful lot of learning about myself and my sexuality with men who were not suitable relationship partners, but offered me great lessons. Then what do you think about a person who haven’t gone through this phase, either by choice, or by inability? Thankfully, with a full life of experiences… Read more »
No, because most men don’t actually get those opportunities. Maybe high-status guy ride the crazy train, but most men are lucky if they have 2-3 girlfriends throughout their entire 20’s.
Virtually any woman can ride the carousel. Only the lower 10-20% are barred from that. Only the top 10-20% men are allowed to ride the crazy train. When you have a situation like that, it’s going to breed a truly massive level of resentment.
Anecdote time. A not very conventionally attractive woman told me she has had 30+ men by 25, I’ve never heard a similar looking male say the same. Infact my hottest male friends probably don’t have half of that. I don’t think many people would want that many partners but the number of partners women are capable of getting I do believe are far higher than men for casual sex.
@Archy….
Just hold out a bit longer. When she turns 30 and has blown through 50+ men, she will be just right for you. You can “win.” Because, we know nice guys win out in the end (with much sarcasm). Right?
Keep Hope Alive!!!
Hell no would I have her, she was a user and I got rid of her as a friend long ago. (nothing to do with her count, but her terrible personality)
yes Alyssa I would have loved to have a parade of “crazy chicks” going through my bedroom for lots of carefree and NSA sex. Of course the fact that I could only get very few women of _any_ type interested enough for a phone number, and even fewer past a first date really put a damper on my ability to do that. I’m glad to hear you were able to have a sexually fulfilling 20s with bad boys, while I was mostly unwillingly celibate during mine. The men in the comments say over and over the reality that it’s very… Read more »
I’ve noticed this too, quite a few females have told of how they got these opportunities yet very rarely do I see men talking about it. I’d love to see women acknowledge this privilege.
but Archy they won’t acknowledge it and the response you will get is “it’s not a privilege because it’s not the sex I _wanted_” (can’t remember what thread that kept coming up in). They’ll claim no privilege since they weren’t in a emotionally supportive relationship where they got everything they wanted.
Be it here or the Huffington Post or wherever, the vast majority of times, it is always women who gloat about their sexcapdes. Of course, it is either followed by the “I was young and dumb”, “I need to experiment to find what I like” or other reason.
I know of very few forums where men talk openly about dating/sexing 4-5 or more men a year! The men who are doing so are too busy enjoying themselves! Cannot say I much blame them if I were into that sort of thing.
Just the facts.
and the articles by men about that subject are greeted with some variations of: “just proves men are dogs!” “This is so horrible for him to be using women” “I hope you’re proud of objectifying women” “This is terrible, why can’t you get to know a woman and love her for who she is?” “you are so disrespectful. I would never go out with you!” When men want NSA sex women react like it’s a horrible thing that shows how men are animals who only “want one thing”, and hold it up as an example of how men’s attitudes about… Read more »
…oh for the love of *eyeroll* I was absolutely tortured for being a “slut” in highschool. Girls wouldn’t speak to me, boys threw prophylactics at me, funny thing was I had a girlfriend for all of it (and although I identified as bisexual I was completely monogamous) So no, sexual experience is not treated like a plus or something to brag about for women, and personally I don’t give a flying you know what if a man enjoys casual sex. I’ve had plenty of casual sex in my life with men and women, and the only time I’ve judged a… Read more »
@Madeira..
Eyeroll.
ahahahahahaa first time I’ve heard of it, sounds quite funny.
ah carousel, the liverpool fc, celtic fc anthem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzJqv_Oj_W0
the pastor was really talking about the ‘coccck carousel’ that is another name for mounting bad bwoi after bad bwoi, and the excitation of the woman’s emotions
For a moment there I thought you were going to actually say something that was useful to the conversation.
To quote Jules:
FINE! Then keep it moving.
@Pastor of Muppets
“…..that the comments thread has turned into a recitation of every lame, tired manosphere trope out there.”
FINE! Then keep it moving.
@pastor, most of the comments are intelligent and polite. There are a few where somebody complain and argue, but as you can see it turn out quite well. Finally there are very few comments who are borderline trolling (ironically including yours) so as others have pointed out…do you have something intelligent to say? please share otherwise…dont disturb.
Ok, let me see if I can tightrope my way through the society vs. biology vs. agency flotsam and jetsam. A lot of women are attracted to Bad Boys. *Partially* because of the social constructs that present bad boys as desirable. *Partially* because of biological reasons relevant to pheromones, testosterone, ovulation, and a host of other things that go one behind the scenes while we’re unaware. *Sometimes* her past experience with men, going back to childhood, may influence her taste in dating partners. And part of it is inexplicable – Why is anyone attracted to anyone, after all? You can… Read more »
High 5 KKZ, Your comment should be comment of the day. Why does it appear agency and the socialization issues cannot both be accepted by the author?
Thanks for the endorsement, Archy. To answer your question… “Why are women attracted to assholes” and “Why do women choose to date/sex/marry assholes” are two different questions that get lumped into one discussion. It’s like asking “Why do so many people like chocolate?” There are social reasons – chocolate is marketed as desirable, no doubt. There are biological reasons – it tastes good to most palates. There are personal reasons – a person who grew up consuming chocolate has developed a taste for it. But if you (not you personally – general you) keep pushing a person to explain why… Read more »
KKZ, I’m in a relationship with someone who spent a couple of decades trying to make a relationship work with a guy who is objectively more “exciting” than me. She sometimes says something to the effect that “we” wouldn’t have been attracted to each other if we had met at 20 or 25 or 30. I don’t think she’s really aware of what she’s saying, or her mistake in including me in the comment. I’d have been attracted to her at any age. I’m happy in this relationship. I think she genuinely desires me as I do her. I don’t… Read more »
Hi Adrian. You make a good and well-communicated point, thanks for sharing your experience. If I imagine myself in your situation and hearing the same sentiment from someone I cared about and found attractive, I can understand how it would hurt. ESPECIALLY if she didn’t even know you at that age and thus couldn’t really make a call in the present about how she would have felt in the past. I’m guessing there are two things at work here. One, her opinion of herself at 20, 25, 30. Maybe in hindsight, she sees herself as someone who would not have… Read more »
cmon KKZ, you sound too patronizing.
I didn’t see KKZ’s response as patronizing. I think it’s a thoughtful and constructive, and I guess that can seem patronizing, but I’m not looking at it as huge negative, so KKZ’s works for me because it contains part of my feeling. In direct response to KKZ, I tend to thnk she was thinking out loud, which is a genuinely charming but occasionally biting habit of hers. A question popped into her head and this is the answer she believed to be true. In a sense, she may need to believe it’s true, lest she have to face the implications… Read more »
It means you are not good looking, hot, popular, enough for her to have considered you for a fling in her wild carefree days. But NOW that she is all ‘mature’ (read she has been jaded and hurt by sexually desirable men) she has settled for you and is making a lot of effort to be attracted to you. Deep down she is bitter and wouldve loved to settle down with the kind of men she liked to bang in her carefree days but ofcourse those men were unavailable. She has to rationalize her choices. She feels you should be… Read more »
Tim, you think thay they reffer to it as ‘Setteling Down’?
Adrian It means you are not good looking, hot, popular, enough for her to have considered you for a fling in her wild carefree days. But NOW that she is all ‘mature’ (read she has been jaded and hurt by sexually desirable men) she has settled for you and is making a lot of effort to be attracted to you. Deep down she is bitter and wouldve loved to settle down with the kind of men she liked to bang in her carefree days but ofcourse those men were unavailable. She has to rationalize her choices. She feels you should… Read more »
Hey Tim, Your take on things isn’t far off from the thoughts I have that somewhat irritate me. I don’t invest in it the way you seem to, though. And then there are a couple of glaring differences. First, I see no need or benefit to assume the worst about a situation. What you may claim is reality is merely your interpretation of things. I’m not blind to those things (my situation), but I see them through a less bitter lens than you. Second, well I’m not comfortable saying more than how about you read Jules description of married/long term… Read more »
You call it patronizing, I call it optimistic. You present only one reason she could have said what she said, I contend there are other reasons, and not all of them harmful/negative. I wanted to offer Adrian other possibilities than the one he was lingering on, a worst-case scenario. While it’s certainly possible that scenario is true, I’m willing to bet she’s not bitter or regretful at all, but rather GLAD that she ended up with Adrian rather than the people she was into when she was 25. Because nine times out of ten, when I’ve had conversations like this… Read more »
KKZ I am going to resist the urge to give you a reply longer than this article itself, instead I would ask you a simple question and help you to reach the conclusion yourself. QUESTION: Why do ONLY women’s preferences in men change so dramatically that many of them settle down with and marry men they wouldn’t have crapped upon in their carefree days when they were having flings? Why doesn’t this dramatic change happen with men’s preferences? I can assure you there aren’t many men on this planet who are married to women, they wouldn’t have considered for a… Read more »
@KKZ… “If pushing her to claim responsibility makes you feel better, then I guess go ahead, but don’t expect it to affect your odds.” I know it will not get women to change a damn thing. It is still going to be business as usual. The status quo ante will remain. Men need to seek out other options. For me it is FWB arrangements, women from other cultures/races, etc. For other men, I guess if you can’t beat the bad boys you can join them with PUA, lying, deceit, etc. In the final analysis, does it really matter? If you… Read more »
There’s a loophole in your position, Jules,: A lot of women have a taste for assholes, but certainly not all. I know anecdotal evidence doesn’t trump social trends, but I can count a number of my male friends and acquaintances who are not assholes but bona fide nerds and who are happily paired up — or at the very least, they’ve had some measure of success with romance and sex, even if it later fell through. Oddly enough, the one guy in the group whom I’d call an asshole is, and has been, alone, with no good leads for quite… Read more »
Great post, KKZ. I think if people paid closer attention to what’s going on in their social circles, they’d realize pretty quickly that lots of women like good guys and vice versa. Confirmation bias is right. Another point I’d make–sometimes a guy only becomes an “asshole” because he “stole” a woman another man was interested in, even though she told that other guy she wasn’t interested in him. Happened to me a bunch of times with an old friend, and now he doesn’t talk to me. It’s really just jealousy, because I don’t fit the jerk stereotype at all, and… Read more »
@KKZ…. While I am stridently against legalized prostitution, maybe that is part of the solution. There are just too many men in this country who are involuntarily celibate. They are good men who want relationships, sex, families, etc. It is a hard pill for me to swallow, but maybe its time has come. Personally, I have gotten around this dysfunctional and crazy sexual dynamic we have by having two FWBs. Why two you might wonder? After my divorce, I vowed NEVER to put my sexual pleasure and well being in the hands of one woman again. Nor do I have… Read more »
Hi again Jules. As I said to Jamesq, I spent way too much work time on these comments yesterday (and feel a little bad about eating up the page) so I’ll try to keep this brief. I can certainly understand how your experience with committed relationships and marriage has informed the decisions you’ve made in the present about what kind of sex life you want. I applaud you for your authenticity, and do not begrudge you your model for a happy and satisfying sex life. (In fact, from what I’ve gathered, it’s not uncommon for people around your age and… Read more »
@KKZ…. Thanks for your comments. I do respect your point of view. I have to be realistic in life. After all, that why it is called reality. Reality for me is to look at the data. Not just my experience to be projected but real world data. First, marriage is a failure. When something has only a 50% success rate, we cannot call such a thing a successful undertaking. Does that mean all marriages are failures? Of course not. There are lots (millions) of vibrant and fulfilling marriages, sexually, spiritually, and otherwise. However, the data tells me that the odds… Read more »
Maybe it is all about age. I’ve only been married 3 years, after all, and I don’t make a habit of asking men who have been married for longer than I’ve been alive about their sexual satisfaction. Maybe it’s wrong of me to assume that when I see a married couple in their 50s who seem to have a happy and healthy relationship, that everything is also OK in the bedroom. Your past is my future – which is to say, all the years of marriage you went through are still ahead for me. And from my view, my future… Read more »
@KKZ:
Because when I see men pushing the Agency point, I see something else going on, too. They don’t *just* want women to acknowledge their agency, they want them to reform.
I see that in no small part being dependent on the women themselves often acknowledging that being turned on by and attracted to the “bad guy” is something they can’t help.
Now that’s not what Kat was doing, but it’s usually very common in discussions like this.
As I mentioned above, and admittedly got off track, “Why are women attracted to assholes?” and “Why do women choose to date/sex/marry assholes?” are two different questions that often get lumped together. Why are women attracted to assholes? Well jeez, what a can of worms. Why is anyone attracted to anyone? Strip away the social, personal and biological components, and you’re left with the enigmatic nature of attraction. Those social, personal and biological components are valid, but they are merely layers of an incomprehensible onion. Why do women choose to date/sex/marry assholes? THAT is what I think most men want… Read more »
you peeled the onion there, layer by layer
raw and great post kkz
Thank you. That almost makes me feel better about all the time I spent crafting these comments and not working today. D’oh. No G-M-P-ing for me tomorrow…
This may be the best comment.
KKZ:
Why do women choose to date/sex/marry assholes? THAT is what I think most men want the answer to, but the question is rarely phrased that way.
Naah, I just wanna know how to become one…!
Come on, Kal, the only thing worse than an asshole is an aspiring asshole. 🙂
“Because when I see men pushing the Agency point, I see something else going on, too. They don’t *just* want women to acknowledge their agency, they want them to reform. They hope that when a woman finally says “Yes, I only go for assholes,” her next sentence should be “And now that I’m conscious of this, I’m going to change and start giving Nice Guys a chance.” ” ——- I actually care if their next sentence is if they are going to change. I think most men would be happy with just the admission they like assholes. That way men… Read more »
I too have no patience for “There are no nice guys out there.” To my view, that’s a pretty lame excuse to continue pursuing crappy candidates, one that helpfully poses the woman as the victim of scarcity. I have a mental roster of single male friends who are decidedly not assholes, should I ever encounter a woman who needs proof that they exist.
I love it when feminists use the “No one is entitled to have sex” crap when talking about the fake nice guys (which I agree definitely do exist) being nice to a women and than expecting her to have sex with them…..but somehow the same exact entitlement (just gone about a different way) from the bad boy/Aholes is perfectly acceptable??? Hm………. It’s also funny how feminists say that no one is entitled to sex but than somehow they are entitled to my hard earned tax dollars (which often go to support single mother bums on welfare) through welfare and food… Read more »
Because otherwise the children would be harmed. This is also actually pretty much an imaginary problem.
This article was quite a tease. I saw the title and thought “Wow! some actual answers to a question that has befuddled men for generations!” It ended up with the usual feminist dogma. It’s the fault of soceity, which we all know is dominated by the evil patriarcal men. Therefore, it’s the fault of men and can only be rectified by men changing their ways. What a bummer.
…oh FFS, there’s social programming involved, there of course are also just some people that go for assholes (usually because they themselves are assholes)
@Melissa Fabello “And we’re taught from early on—just like we are with women and femininity—that what society wants in our men is the former [aggressive, sexual, restricting, and stoic], not the latter [intellectual, emotional, artsy, and cultured].” That’s an amazingly incorrect notion. You know darn well that we are not socialized to be aggressive and certainly not to be sexual. I’m not sure what “restricting” is supposed to mean in this context and I suppose stoic is up for grabs. The fact of the matter is that boys are taught from their mother’s knee to be exactly that “good-guy” the… Read more »
@jules- Wow- Angry much? Enjoy the hookers- sounds like you have given up on pretty much everything else… God, I will never understand the twisted logic of women’s thinking about sex. Nor do I ever want to understand it True- But I have also been taught that if you believe you will, or you wont, you are correct. I will simply state that I believe you. All I can say is I will never go for this pack of lies ever again. Just as you want the guy for a lay, that’s all I want from women. A great fuck.… Read more »
Nice catch by the moderators….
Next time can you put quotes in quotes, it’s difficult to read what is your words and what is the other commenter, and I suggest avoiding insults.
@Archy….
I have been called worse!
It’s mind over matter: I don’t mind and he does not matter.
Just another day in the park.
Cheers!
@S Signatz… Or shall I call you SS? Just a joke. But, let’s take it from the top. Angry? Yes Pissed? Yes Hookers? No I have two FWBs. Nor do I believe in prostitution. Do not trust women? No, I do not. Legacy of divorce I suppose. My favorite quote: “The things always happens that you really believe in; and the belief in a thing makes it happen” – Frank Lloyd Wright So, you’re probably correct: I will never believe in the twisted logic of a lot of women. No argument from me on this one. I do not regard… Read more »
Where to begin? I think I am wasting my time, so I will be brief- (Thats relative, of course) You don’t do name calling- great- you do shouting (That would be the all capital letters) stereotyping and over generalizing (ALL,ALL,ALL)to deflect from ANY (That was for emphasis, and you can even take it as a yell, I suppose) responsibility for your relationships or dealings with women. While you talk about how wonderful you are in almost every way possible, all the issues have arisen because women simply cannot resist the all powerful bad-boy, and you have simply been cast aside.… Read more »
@S Signatz….. Thanks for your brevity and those kind words of appreciation (humor of course). Yes, sometimes I do shout. But, it is quite rare. Yes, I was married for over 15 years. Twelve years of sexual misery. So, someone did love me and chose to “reproduce’ with me. I divorced her. The two women I have as FWBs I have known for 8-10 years. They are good friends and good women. They just have not found the men they want, so in the mean time, we enjoy each others’ company. First and foremost, I like a smart and intelligent… Read more »
Women lamenting “why are there no nice guys?” drives me freaking nuts. Why? Maybe it’s because I’ve heard it from women who’ve said I’m a nice guy and any girl would be lucky to be with me. But, when I want to be in a relationship with them, they have excuses about why they don’t want to be in one with me. I don’t really care why women like bad guys. I just want women to own it. And if you can’t handle being in a relationship with a guy that does sweet things and is thoughtful and considerate, then… Read more »
@A Hurting Dad…
They must do more than just own it. They must also commit themselves to treating Mr. Nice the same way sexually as the bad boy, if and when they are lucky enough, to get a nice guy into a long term relationship or marry.
I hope for the sake of the man they are unlucky. All its going to be is torment and misery for the damn guy. Just being real.
Personally, I shall accept nothing less.
So, basically, “Yes, some women are bad people, but it’s totally not their fail because Society!”
Sorry, but people have responsibility. “Because I was told to” is not a valid excuse.
@soullite….
Agree.
What if the relationship between being an asshole and attracting members of the opposite sex is causal but in the opposite way? I mean, what if the case isn’t “Women love guys who are assholes”, but rather “Men who put up with women’s crap eventually become assholes (or women who put up with men’s crap become psycho bitches)”?
Is the man in the photograph supposed to be a bad boy? You really need to do a better job. A tall, slender man with glasses, a bad t-shirt and a yo-yo looks more like somebody trying to do a really bad impersonation of a bad boy.
@Lee dont you read the F word on the t-shirt? he is such a bad bad boy 😉
Good article. Feminist authors usually approach the bad boy/nice guy topic from a moral angle. Thus, Nice Guys are immoral because the try to manipulate women. This article on the other hand looks at it from a gender angle. Thus, Nice Guys are not very good at performing masculinity and therefore less attractive to women. I think it’s good to set the moralizing aside for once and talk about the gender performance of nice guys and bad boys.