Yes, Some Women Only Go For A**holes

 

Ever just wished feminists would admit that some women DO only like “bad boys”? Melissa Fabello not only admits it, she explores why this phenomenon exists.

It happens invariably – and innocently enough – the question that makes all feminists cringe because we know that what will follow is a Nice-Guy-Syndrome-Friend-Zone-Arrgh-Wtf rant.

But why do some women go for a**holes?

I see you. I see you cringing.

But when I off-handedly tweeted the other day that I was working on this article, something unexpected happened.

I was barraged by an onset of tweets. Men thanked me for taking the question on, because they’ve been waiting to get a real answer. And women wrote in to say that they really needed validation on this topic to help explain their own lives and relationships. And suddenly I realized that this article is really actually needed.

So why do some women go for a**holes?

Here’s why—we’re told to.

Now let’s break it down through the lens of something that is familiar to us.

Four Boxes Theory

The Four Boxes of Gendered Sexuality is a theory that we, as feminists, are already familiar with, even if we don’t know it by name. In essence, it’s an expansion of the Virgin/Whore Complex, which posits that women can either be good at womanhood (by being an awesome wife and mother and having a sexuality that is saved for the “right” men) or horrible at it (by being an outspoken, brazen slutty slut-slut).

This accounts for two of Crane and Crane-Seber’s four boxes: The Good Girl—who is subordinate, dependent, and passive—and The Bad Girl—who is independent, educated, and sexually liberated. Embedded in this dichotomy is the idea that it is more socially acceptable to be the former.

But men, too, are forced into boxes. The Tough Guy—aggressive, sexual, restricting, and stoic—is our social ideal. The Sweet Guy—intellectual, emotional, artsy, and cultured—on the other hand, is considered a sort of failed masculinity.

And we’re taught from early on—just like we are with women and femininity—that what society wants in our men is the former, not the latter.

The pressure to represent a sort of gendered perfection is on both women and men. And more importantly (at least, to the aims of this article), it must be noted that these gender ideals are imprinted on all of us.

Boys, while they’re being taught to play with trucks instead of dolls, pick up on the fact that women are supposed to be subservient and quiet. And girls, while trying on Mom’s high heels, learn that men should be domineering and violent.

A Crisis in Masculinity

The truth is we shouldn’t be asking why some women date bad guys. We should go to the root of the problem first.

Why are men socialized to be assholes? And why does society applaud and encourage that behavior in men, while stifling more enriching and healthy traits like empathy and good communication?

The problem, really, starts with the fact that what’s considered “masculine” in our culture is dominance, aggression, prowess, competition, abuse, restriction, argumentativeness, control, and violence.

Also known as being an asshole.

Men who are able to get in touch with their feelings (geez, and even cry every once in a while!) and be an attentive lover actually make better partners than the hegemonic hyper-masculine male because of that openness and sensitivity.

But we stifle those behaviors early on, the very first time that we utter to them that “boys don’t cry,” and punish our sweet guys by telling them to “man up,” implying that they’re less of a man when they emote or show an interest in humanities.

Thus, the message that we’re getting across (to men and women alike!) is that only domineering men are “real” men – the ones that you want to be or be with.

Opposites Attract

One of the most frustrating problems that comes out of the idea that people are only allowed to be categorized in one of two ways (as “feminine” or “masculine”) is that it pegs femininity and masculinity as opposite.

And because, culturally, we associate femininity with women and masculinity with men, then we’re also brought up to believe that men and women are different, that we do not share the same traits.

So what do we need in order to achieve balance in our relationships?

Each other.

Which means that who we’re with says something about who we are. Namely, that we are the opposite of whomever we’re dating.

That is according to this age-old idea that opposites attract, if I am dating a masculine man, then I must, in theory, be a feminine woman. I’m dating the masculine ideal, so I, in turn, must be the feminine ideal. He’s emotionless and physically strong, and I’m a damsel in distress – just like we’re supposed to be. We both win. And we achieve balance.

So while, on the one hand, women go for alpha-males because we’re socialized to believe that’s what we want, on the other hand, it’s because it says something about who we are. Think of the ideal, All-American image of the football player with the cheerleader. Perfect man + perfect woman = perfect couple. Perfect couple – perfect man = perfect woman.

So Now What?

Well, for starters, it would be great if we could re-conceptualize masculinity. We could also stop adhering to gender boxes altogether.

But since it takes a lot of time, energy, and participation to change culture, here are three things that you can do personally to question and call attention to this:

1. Distinguish between someone who is hegemonically hyper-masculine and someone who is abusive.

It’s kind of like squares and rectangles—someone who is abusive is adhering to the hegemonic mold, but someone who is “masculine” by social definition is not necessarily dangerous.

If you think that you or someone you know is in an abusive relationship, then please redirect here.

But remember, just because they’re not abusive doesn’t mean they’re good for you.

2. Be careful with the gendered language that you use around children.

They are sponges. They soak up everything that you say. Tell the young boys in your life that it’s okay to cry, and that it’s not okay to act violently.

Even though the outside world is teaching them to adhere to gender roles, you can help them think critically about these messages and develop their own individualized sense of masculinity and humanity.

3. Be cognizant of your relationship choices and actively ask yourself if your partner is what’s best for you.

This goes for everyone, always, all the time. But within the context of this article— don’t accept that a male partner who is withholding emotion, telling you what to do, or unable to manage anger is just “boys being boys.”

Because it’s not. It’s “men being the men that they think they’re supposed to be.” Ask for more. From your partners and from yourself. Men are capable are so much more, even if society says they’re not.

I can’t tell you why you’re attracted to the kinds of people that you are. But what I can tell you is that our sense of gender roles and expectations is deeply ingrained.

And it’s worth taking a closer look at. Your happiness and relationships you’re in are worth you taking a closer look.

 

Originally appeared at Everyday Feminism

Melissa A. Fabello is a Contributing Writer for Everyday Feminism, a feminist blogger and vlogger, as well as an online peer sex educator, based out of Philadelphia. She is a second-year graduate student, working on an M.Ed. in Human Sexuality. She can be reached on Twitter @fyeahmfabello.

 

Photo courtesy of Flickr/grenade

About Everyday Feminism

Everyday Feminism supports people dealing with everyday violence, dominance, and silencing due to their gender, sexual orientation, race, class, and more. Through our online magazine and upcoming online school for applied feminism, we help people apply feminism to their real lives in order to work through issues, stand up for themselves, and live their truth. Follow us on Facebook or Twitter!

Comments

  1. wellokaythen says:

    [I don’t know if anyone’s said this yet. I haven’t read all the comments.]

    People may be getting the cause and effect backwards. Maybe it’s not that assholes/bitches are more attractive, it’s that attractive people are more likely to become assholes/bitches.

    On some level, some people are just inherently attractive, maybe even independently of how they behave. Maybe it’s physiology, symmetry, pheromones, psychic vibration, whatever. I know, being sexy is supposed to be about confidence, and everyone is supposed to be beautiful, and attraction is socially/culturally constructed, all the feel-good things we tell the young and impressionable, but some people are born good-looking. This will no doubt have a big effect on how they see themselves and how they relate to other people. Assholes/bitches are made, not born.

    People who know from a young age that they are good-looking are more likely to become arrogant. Being pretty or handsome doesn’t automatically make you a jerk, but you’re more likely to get away with being a butthead because you’re good-looking. You have some degree of privilege to be an asshole compared to less attractive people. So, maybe women are attracted to assholes because women are attracted to attractive men, and these attractive men have learned to become assholes as a result. Assholishness/bitchiness may be an indirect byproduct of the fact that the person is already attractive.

    You can see this phenomenon all the time on a very small scale. When a man who’s not conventionally attractive suddenly experiences a little success in the dating world, he may start to act a little cocky. Even just a little success can go to your head. You would think that a man like that would just be modestly grateful for his good fortune, but that’s not usually how the mind works. Just a little ego-boosting in your love life can make you super-confident, even overconfident.

    If this theory is true, then suddenly acting like an asshole will not necessarily increase your attractiveness. If you haven’t had much dating/mating success at this point, becoming a jerk will probably not help you much.

    Just a theory, anyway.

    • wellokaythen says:

      My message was a little heteronormative, now that I think about it. I wonder if there is a similar phenomenon within same-sex dating — men attracted to “bad boys”, women attracted to “bad girls”? How much is the dynamic there the same and how is it different?

  2. I’m not exactly sure what constitutes the definition of a “bad boy” these days, but I will say this: In my experience good boys, bad boys, middle-of-the-road boys, preppies, jocks, goth dudes, whatever–no man ever gets laid without paying a price. The same can be said of women. Every sexual encounter comes with a consequence for one or the other or both partners, no matter how casual the intent. I’ve caused suffering, experienced suffering, contributed to the suffering of someone I had no idea would be affected by an encounter–a boyfriend back home, a husband, a friend left alone on a night of promised catching up. NSA is not a reality. No Visible Strings Attached, No Seemingly Important Strings Attached: that’s more like it.

    Once a man reaches a certain age–let’s say manhood–he becomes more away of these things. I for one am not willing to spend the time leading on a perfectly decent woman I’m going to run from in the morning. No bueno. If a man–or woman–of a certain age can’t tell when a potential sex partner has un-shared longer term ambitions, or can tell but doesn’t care, that person is not an adult in my book.

    I can think of no better argument for legalizing prostitution. Unionize or go solo, but always know the cops will show up if things go wrong. Legalize. A person’s body and carnal talents should be his or hers to sell as he or her chooses. Period. Most of the rest of the world seems to think so. Why are Americans such damn prudes?

  3. I consider myself a bit of a connoisseur of stories written online, mostly because I’m a masochist and love to torture myself, I guess. Most of these stories (I don’t suffer through fanfiction, God, I don’t hate myself that much) are written by a younger demographic than me, teenage girls mostly.

    We have some seriously poisonous ways we look at dating in our culture. I wrote a story about a drug lord and a woman he hires as his escort. He treats her like crap. He hits her. He degrades her. He orders her bodyguard to beat her up when her bodyguard briefly left her side to attend his ailing wife. Seriously, he is straight up pure evil. And I have documented all the reviews asking me: “When is he gonna turn good?” “He must love her, I know it!” “When is she going to change him?” And these came AFTER he physically struck her . . . when she wanted to get off drugs. Because drugs were a way he controlled her.

    So i started putting all these reviews together ( proof–> http://wandarox.livejournal.com/32437.html ) and I got kind of sick to my stomach, reading all of them. These are teenage girls, convinced it’s still a love story when the man is physically assaulting the woman they want him to “love”. Because in our culture, women are taught that they can change men. With their love or some hogwash. Take an abusive man and through the power of sex and devotion, turn him into a loving dream man!

    My personal experience with women has never been this. In real life, the women I befriend have absolutely no interest in men who are jerks (though most of them don’t have much interest in dating in general). That’s why my initial reaction to “ALL WOMEN WANT JERKS” is “Wow, bitter much?” But then I go back and I look at the reviews on this story that I wrote, and I see it. I see what men are saying. I see there are a whole crapload of girls out there who do this. I don’t know how many full grown, mature women do it, but damn, do teenage girls have some f”ed up views on how love works. Pick up any romance novel and it’s all there. I love reading romance but usually cannot because of all the poisonous crap that gets written down.

    I actually think the answer to this problem is more feminism–teaching girls what abuse looks like and how jealousy, possessiveness, and paranoia are NOT sexy in any shape or form. But in the meantime, I’ll just avoid all those types of people altogether and be happy with what I got– non-jerks.

    • @wanda
      “I love reading romance but usually cannot because of all the poisonous crap that gets written down.”
      You wouldn’t mean like that hyper-popular ’50 Shades of Gray’ series , would you?

  4. John Schtoll says:

    There is another reason some women choose “A$$holes”. They know the guy is an a$$hole and know he will act like it in public and she will get to play the victim and get to pour her heart out to her friends about how much she is hurt. One of my wifes friends is like this.

  5. This whole article is absurd. The author of this article seems to be firmly determined to place to take put the responsiblity of women making bad choices in men and following consequences on the shoulder of men and society in general. If women are going for those not so nice gentlemen, (who are being referred to an orifice at the rear of a certain beast of burden), and are suffering as a consequence of it, then they have only themselves to blame. Society is not forcing or even encouraging them to do so, on the contrary, in lot of circumstances parents and friends warn the concerned lady about the consequeces of doing it.

    Nice guys must not trust what they hear from girls but what they do. The only solution for the guys is “caveat emptor” i.e buyer beware. A girl is free to do whatever kind of relationship they want which whatever kind of man she wants. She must face good or bad consequences for her decision. Guys do not have to care about it or feel pity for them. You are not born to please anybody but yourself. “They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind.”

  6. Boy, threads like this actually make me appreciate the fact that I’m old! So, if I grasp today’s lesson, if you’re a ‘nice guy’ in your early 20’s , just hang in there, spend your weekends with ‘Rosie’ and her 5 sisters and eventually, in 10 years or so, when the girls are ready to settle down, they’ll be checking you out! No thanks. I think I’ll just be an ‘asshole and ‘get some’ now if you don’t mind!

  7. PursuitAce says:

    I may have missed it in the many comments, but it needs to be said again. Bad boys are bad for a reason. They’re the ones doing most of the misogyny, sexual harassment, sexual assaults, and domestic violence. Just keep that in mind when you’re going for the next bad boy. I’d rather not pick up another badly beaten young women by the side of the road asking me that question that I just can’t answer. “Why did he do this?”

  8. Hank Vandenburgh says:

    One thing that’s significant here is that bad guys “market” more than nice guys. Nice guys are likely to sulk or be passive after a rebuff, but bad guys are on to the next target of opportunity. I agree that BGs become withholding after they’ve hooked the woman, but they’re out there more.

    • @Hank

      Most so called “Bad Boys” that I knew also had a very wide range when it came to their so called standards. In my experience if things didnt quite go as planned with the hottie in the club, they rarely, if ever, went home alone. Interesting that you point out the sulking part when it comes to the so called “Nice Guys”, I guess flexibility would be another trait lacking.

      • @John T…

        “Most so called “Bad Boys” that I knew also had a very wide range when it came to their so called standards”

        The same goes for the women who are screwing them too. Right? If the women had higher standards, they would not be screwing the bad boys to begin with.

        I market and sell (persuade) on a daily basis. So, getting rejected is part of my game….Yes, many people do not handle rejection well. The worst thing one can do (man or woman) is to take it personally. Just go on to next one. That’s what the bad boy does.

        The difference is the bad boy convinces the woman she is not just the next one but “special.” He is good at “sweet talking” women. Or maybe he is just a good looking guy that someone like Kat finds fuckable for the nite. My brother used to have a motto, “She has to fuck someone, so why not me!” He got laid by some beautiful women. Why? His timing was right I guess.

        Just the way it is.

    • @Hank,

      Yes, you are correct.

      They are getting the desired results because they know they are favored by women over the nice guys. Would not you be out there more often too? I had a bad boy who worked for me.He even had a live-in girlfriend !(she is now his wife). He is still up to the same thing. But, she loves him.

      He was banging women left and right. He personally told me that in his view, “most women are not worth a damn”. His words. Not mine. I was offended because he was insulting his mother, sister….But, women just could not wait to screw him. Even within the company, he was screwing the women on staff.

      He even made vids using his cellphone of women giving him blowjobs. He was just laughed about the whole thing.

      • Jules, not for nothing, I’ll bet from what I’ve seen in life, that this guy you’re talking about was ‘well hung’.

  9. The idea that seems to be floating around here is that men cant get sex as easily as women. For the most part I think that is a bald face lie. Now, if you were to say I cant get sex with the women “I want”, then you might be on to something. The truth of the matter is no matter how much I wanted to be an NFL quarterback my 5’8 frame(on a good day) just wasnt going to make the grade. I think maybe some gentlemen out here need to remind themselves of that when they go looking for a lifemate or sex.

    • @John T…

      “The idea that seems to be floating around here is that men cant get sex as easily as women. For the most part I think that is a bald face lie.”

      Then how do you explain the explosive growth in porn and the sex trade? CNBC did a special on prostitution. They looked at several segments: street, escorts, high end call girls (some with Ivy League degrees). Most of the clients were married men (not surprised). But, what many women found rather baffling was that of the single men, most were younger and decent looking. The prostitutes could not figure out why they needed a sex worker.

      If men could get sex as easily as women, I do not think sex workers would exist. Are there many sex workers for women? No. They brought in a guy into a brothel in Nevada to service women. He quit: lack of work!

    • “The idea that seems to be floating around here is that men cant get sex as easily as women. For the most part I think that is a bald face lie.”
      Oh do tell of the many women complaining of not enough sex from their partners and how hard it is for them to find casual sex. Do tell how men can get sex as easy as women (without paying), I’d love to know.

      • @Archy

        Change your standards. I will reiterate, sex is not the issue, sex with who you “want” may be one. Funny thing is, most nice guys(who dont fit the bill as a bad boy) dont want sex with “nice women” either. By and large they pick women who are out of their league(as in the women arent attracted to them) and then they bitch about being rebuffed. Go figure.

        • What standards? The only standard is awake, able to consent, of legal age, female. I use to call myself a nice guy and I wanted sex with “nice women”, I had the hugest crush on the sweetest woman in school. If women aren’t attracted to them means they are out of their league then I’d say the problem most nice guys are complaining about is that they are not attractive to most women, I believe other commenters here have been saying women’s standards are higher for attraction (not sure I agree).

          Personally I think less women are into casual sex, although most “nice guys” I’ve known don’t want casual sex but love instead so it’s a moot point. Read the comments by women on this site in the nice guy articles about how they aren’t attracted to men when they think the men are so desperate (as in have no standards) and how they won’t date them because of that.

        • John T

          The average looking woman can obtain sex way more easily than an average looking man.

          Unattractive men who feel they’re entitled to sex with hot cheerleaders only exist in Teen movies and sitcoms. Its hard enough to attract ordinary looking women.

          • Yeah really, an average looking woman walks into a bar (mostly male clientel) and lets it be known she wants sex. An average looking man walks into a bar (mostly female clientel) and says he’s looking for NSA sex. Unless the man’s driving a Porshe with ‘Benjamins’ falling out of his pockets, who do you think is going to be more successfull?

          • @Tim

            I think the Stones said it best.

            “You cant always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you just might find, you get what you need”
            🙂

            • Actually John T., reading all of this reminds me of some other ‘Stones” songs, ‘Some Girls’ and ‘Beast of Burden’!

  10. I see a few dynamics coming to the fore in this conversation.

    1.) A significant non-zero amount of women choosing “bad boys” for sex/excitement/validation in their 20s, then seeking a “nice guy” for comfort and emotional connection in their 30s. The problem with this is that it imposes an immense social cost on nice guys. Women are in effect asking a significant non-zero amount of nice guys, truly nice guys that don’t see other human beings as means to an end or practice dummies and legitimately seek a committed relationship, to wade through an involuntarily celibate desert for a decade.

    The problem with this is that choosing to have sex with a man is the most visible and salient expression of value they can assign to said man. Yelling won’t change this. What this significant non-zero population of women are doing is sticking these guys with the dinner check after a decades worth of experience getting burned by those “bad boys” (read: not having a relationship with the apex predator on their terms and their terms alone).

    2.) Desirability, attraction, and arousal are all very different things. A comfort and stability-minded man may be desirable, or even attractive, to a woman. That is not arousal, as evidenced by the significant non-zero based number of women having the decade-long tryst through excitement town. We have taught generations of men to that comfort and stability is attractive to women. Imagine a nice guy trying to have a normal, healthy sexual life within the confines of a committed relationship with a woman who has burned deep within her psyche that sex be an excitement-driven thrill based ride with new and exotic men.

    Does anyone honestly believe she will be aroused enough by the last man standing to give him the completely healthy and normal sex life he deserves (yes, deserves)? Does anyone want to confront the uncomfortable fact that sexless marriages are an epidemic?

    • Mr Supertypo says:

      “1.) A significant non-zero amount of women choosing “bad boys” for sex/excitement/validation in their 20s, then seeking a “nice guy” for comfort and emotional connection in their 30s. The problem with this is that it imposes an immense social cost on nice guys. Women are in effect asking a significant non-zero amount of nice guys, truly nice guys that don’t see other human beings as means to an end or practice dummies and legitimately seek a committed relationship, to wade through an involuntarily celibate desert for a decade.”

      I dont know, yes and no. Lots of “bad girls” incentive the “bad boys” thats true, but I think is a juvenile rebellion against gender norms, family etc, there may also be other reasons. Usually the genuine “bad girls” keep bein bad even in their 30’s (I know personally some of them). But lot of girls when they got their experience and the dose of excitements, they settle for a good guy, even if their are still in their 20’s. But it goes also the other way around, nice guys may live in a relative loneliness, but for good girls its not a party even.

      “2.) Desirability, attraction, and arousal are all very different things. A comfort and stability-minded man may be desirable, or even attractive, to a woman. That is not arousal, as evidenced by the significant non-zero based number of women having the decade-long tryst through excitement town. We have taught generations of men to that comfort and stability is attractive to women. Imagine a nice guy trying to have a normal, healthy sexual life within the confines of a committed relationship with a woman who has burned deep within her psyche that sex be an excitement-driven thrill based ride with new and exotic men.”

      I disagree, usually young people get their and their experiences they tend to relax and look for more serious things. They dont keep party. At a certain point they change direction and grow up. And this is also true for the sex, if you got in your 20’s all the sex you can dream of, in the later years you look more for quality than quantity. Then the exotic male/female, is less appalling.
      In synthesis, at young age people, male and female, tend to experiment around, in later years they know what they like (they have the experiences). And IMO that is much better then wandering around confused in their late 40’s.

      • FlyingKal says:

        Mr Supertypo:
        I disagree, usually young people get their and their experiences they tend to relax and look for more serious things. They dont keep party. At a certain point they change direction and grow up. And this is also true for the sex, if you got in your 20′s all the sex you can dream of, in the later years you look more for quality than quantity. Then the exotic male/female, is less appalling.
        In synthesis, at young age people, male and female, tend to experiment around, in later years they know what they like (they have the experiences). And IMO that is much better then wandering around confused in their late 40′s.

        And I disagree with you.
        if you got in your 20′s all the sex you can dream of, you’re probably not at all that interested in it anymore when you can no longer attract “exciting” guys who used to thrill your socks off.

        And sure, if you experiment in your 20’s you might learn what you like. The problem arises when you have a women who have outgrown the ability to *get* what she likes, and tries to combine this with a man who never got to experiment in his 20’s.

        No wonder people end up being confused in their 40’s…

    • @Gambit…

      “Does anyone honestly believe she will be aroused enough by the last man standing to give him the completely healthy and normal sex life he deserves (yes, deserves)?”

      NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I SPEAK FROM EXPERIENCE.

      This is why this whole romantic love narrative that we a taught to believe in is a grand farce. The reality is married women, in general, do not treat their husbands well sexually. But, they want their emotional needs met.

      So, the women get to sex their asses of in their 20s and then in their 30s they seek a partner, soul mate, husband for emotional needs. They want it all! But, these very same married women feel no obligation to give their husbands a robust sex life. No emotional preconditions were place on the bad boy. Zippy. He was given a free pass on everything.

      You know what ladies, if you want my emotional support then I am demanding a free pass too. Otherwise, forget it.

  11. Guilty! But I’m learning. Finished products only from now on!

  12. wellokaythen says:

    Some women, and some men, are drawn to people they see as projects. One reason that some women are drawn to assholes is that some of these women are convinced that they can change the asshole or can redeem him somehow.

    This is probably a minor explanation, but it should be noted that some women seem to be drawn to jerks because they are convinced that they can transform them from jerks into something else. Or, they ignore the asshole qualities because they are convinced that he will “settle down” after a while or is just “going through a phase.” What they’re most drawn to is the idea of what the asshole will BECOME under their guidance, which is not quite the same thing as being attracted to assholes, but on the surface it looks really similar.

  13. wellokaythen says:

    One of the arguments here, as I understand it, is that women are drawn to assholes sometimes because many women have absorbed the dominant gender ideas in which they were raised. That’s a perfectly plausible explanation, but one problem with that is that there’s not a strict correlation between “traditionally feminine women” and “women who are drawn to assholes.” You would expect that the more traditional the woman’s sense of femininity, the more likely she would be hooked up with an asshole, but that’s probably not the case.

    There are plenty of fairly traditional-gender-role-embracing women who are repelled by obnoxious men, and plenty of progressive, liberal-feminist-identified women who are attracted to assholes, and a whole lot of women with a little of both who both love and hate assholes, sometimes the same woman over the course of one lifetime.

    Gender ideas about masculine/feminine roles no doubt have a strong role to play, but when you get down to the individual level it appears to be an incomplete explanation. There’s some role for individual personality or other really small-scale factors. In fact, I think there may be some sort of “personality type,” for lack of a better phrase, which may have very little to do with any sort of cultural brainwashing.

    I’m just happy to come across an article that actually says something like “some women” or “many men” instead of articles claiming to have THE truth about ALL women or ALL men. So, kudos for that, at the very least. “All women like assholes” is just as stupid a statement as “no women like assholes.” Some women like ___, and you can fill in the blank with virtually anything, because humans have the most incredible range of turn-ons and turn-offs.

    • Mr Supertypo says:

      About your statement on gender roles and tradition I disagree; because I hardly believe the family teaches small girls to hook up with a asshole who beat them up and drag them in all kind of bad stuff. They learn to find a good man to marry. So they instead either go for the opposite or they resort to their own gender (college lesbians) as way to free themselves by the oppressive patriarchal values. As I see it, (some) women who are drawn to bad boys is a way to rebel to the society and their uprising, especially young women. A juvenile rebellion against the family, tradition etc.
      Other women may have their own reason of the why, but I find the social conditioning hypothesis to be incomplete or insufficient or perhaps true, but in the reverse.
      Beside that speaking of young women, hormones and age may also have a say. Girls just wanna have fun said once Cyndi Lauper and maybe there is some truth in this. For boys and girls in juvenile age is not uncommon to be rebellious and go for the fun, saving the serious to later in life. They want excitement and they hunger after experience. A bad boy/or a easy girl, is just fit for that. Nice guys/girls are just to boring for some. Naturally im not speaking about all young people, but a good portion.

      Anyhow, I do belive bad boys and bad girls are the one who break the gender roles and traditional values, not the one who practice it. Because (sorry if I repeat myself) but no responsible father nor mother advice her girl/boy to find a jerk get pregnant and raise children alone. Or find a nice girl, rape her and run. No parents do this (unless they are criminals).

      • My theory is that girls are barred from traditional forms of adolescent thrill chasing (getting in fights, games of chicken, drunkenly jumping off roofs, because that’s all seen as boy stuff) and so because they’re not given another outlet for risky behavior in adolescence, a dangerous boyfriend is a way to get your urge to put yourself in danger out of the way, in a way that doesn’t put you too outside your gender role.

        I think it’s more to do that a girl has fewer opportunities to get into a good old fashioned fight than a boy.

  14. Mr Supertypo says:

    yes whats the carousel? Im curious to….

  15. PastorofMuppets says:

    I’m shocked – shocked I tell you – that the comments thread has turned into a recitation of every lame, tired manosphere trope out there.
    Where’s the carousel? Won’t someone mention the carousel?

    • Joanna Schroeder says:

      What’s the carousel!?

      • Bay Area Guy says:

        @ Joanna

        The “cock carousel” refers to how women, when they’re in their 20s or younger, jump from alpha male douchebag to alpha male douchebag, all while ignoring nice, decent guys who would actually be willing to commit.

        They happily ride the carousel in their 20s, but once they reach their late 20s/early 30s and realize that they’re past their prime, they look for a nice guy to settle down with in order to get support and security.

        So the theory goes.

        • Bay Area Guy says:

          There’s a large degree of truth to the theory, but I don’t think they’re as promiscuous as depicted. As one British writer put it, American women have a reputation for promiscuousness that is thoroughly undeserved.

        • Alyssa Royse says:

          Ah, most of us have ridden that ride. Don’t guys ride the “crazy chick train” as well? As was mentioned above, that’s largely part and parcel of the “young and stupid” stage that many people go through. I have done an awful lot of learning about myself and my sexuality with men who were not suitable relationship partners, but offered me great lessons. I went through a stage when I regretted that period, but now that I am patently “old,” I realize that it was an important part of my figuring out what I wanted and didn’t want in a “forever” relationship. Even if many of the lessons that I learned were the “I don’t want that” lessons, I learned them, and as such, profoundly appreciate what I have now.

          I think that a lot of the questioning about these things still stems from a fairly entrenched disapproval of sex just for the sake of sex – even though that’s what we’re talking about. What’s wrong with having sex with someone you have no interest in having a relationship with? When men do it, they’re just “being guys.” But when women do it, we’re what? Sluts? Or worse, being mean to other guys.

          Sometimes sex is just sex. For both men and women. Sometimes assholes seem like a way to get sex without getting your heart broken. That sounds callous and horrible, but I think it’s true.

          Personally, it didn’t happen often for me. Exactly enough to know that it’s not what I want, but I wouldn’t know that if I hadn’t tried it. It’s a stage.

          Yes, some people make the regrettable decision of trying to make a life with the asshole or the crazy chick. And that often doesn’t go well. But most of us learn, eventually, that the nice guys are where it’s at. And I can assure you, I am nowhere near past my prime. Nor did I settle down for support and security. I’m not saying those people don’t exist, but I don’t know any of them personally. Mostly, we just grow up. And so do the men we settle down with. Thankfully, with a full life of experiences that enabled us to learn what really matters. Most of the assholes I know are still single. Actually, same with the crazy chicks.

          • @Alyssa Royse…

            “What’s wrong with having sex with someone you have no interest in having a relationship with?”

            Nothing. But why does it so often have to be one type of man – the bad boy? That is what irks me.

            It is like you women somehow have a monopoly on what YOU think is good for ALL men. Sex for the sake of sex is OK with bad boy but no so with nice guy. Why? We are all men. The last time I checked we all desired and loved sex.

            “Most of the assholes I know are still single.”

            So what?!. But they are still schtupping women left and right.

            You don’t hear them on GMP complaining about the sordid state of affairs now do you?

            • Nothing. But why does it so often have to be one type of man – the bad boy? That is what irks me.
              Actually that’s not what irks me. What irks me is that they have sex with those types of guys then turn around and complain about how they are such jerks or how they are bad or how they don’t treat women right.

              It is like you women somehow have a monopoly on what YOU think is good for ALL men. Sex for the sake of sex is OK with bad boy but no so with nice guy. Why? We are all men. The last time I checked we all desired and loved sex.
              True we are all guys but in the harsh reality women have their tastes in men and if we don’t fit their tastes them I’m fine with it. But again what I’m not fine with is how they choose those guys, get done wrong and suddenly it’s the fault of the guys that that chose (who did them wrong) and the fault of the nice guys they over looked (because if we somehow different they would have chosen us and thus they wouldn’t have f’d up).

              So what?!. But they are still schtupping women left and right.

              You don’t hear them on GMP complaining about the sordid state of affairs now do you?
              I can understand your frustration. I think it’s a matter of women choosing those guys during their wild times and putting the nice guys on hold until they are ready to settle down.

              When men do that it’s called “sowing one’s wild oats” and if frankly looked down upon. But when women do it they are just “daring to be sexual”. (I know it’s not that clear cut down the middle but there are very strong messages to that effect.)

              Yeah I totally understand your frustration.

              • Alyssa Royse says:

                For what it’s worth, I feel like I’m constantly listening to my guy friends complain about the “crazy chicks” they’re hooking up with freely and complaining about while perfectly nice women – though maybe less conventionally hot and contrived – are unable to get a date. I don’t think this works just one way. Seriously. I will never understand why guys go for the crazy chicks, but when I ask guys why, they tell me “because they’re good in bed.” This is a two way street.

                Which is why I think we need to separate out the “kinds” of sex and relationships we’re talking about. As far as I can tell, the good guys usually win in the end. Maybe we need to think of our sex lives as a marathon, not a sprint. Something to last a lifetime, not a night time.

                I’m raising my daughter to steer clear of the bad boys and douches, head straight for the nice sane guys. But I’m willing to bet she’ll take the same detour we all do, and it will all work out in balance.

                And beyond all that, we are all attracted to what we’re attracted to. I spent plenty of time wishing there were more men who were attracted to flat chested brainiacs who wear Converse while my booby and fashionable friends were getting wined, dined and fucked. We don’t always get what we want when we want it, that’s the way life works. And not just for men, or one type of men. For everyone.

                • For what it’s worth, I feel like I’m constantly listening to my guy friends complain about the “crazy chicks” they’re hooking up with freely and complaining about while perfectly nice women – though maybe less conventionally hot and contrived – are unable to get a date. I don’t think this works just one way. Seriously. I will never understand why guys go for the crazy chicks, but when I ask guys why, they tell me “because they’re good in bed.” This is a two way street.
                  I’ll agree that it happens both ways. But as a guy here is how I see it. Women are allowed to complain about those douches and jerks that they choose to go out with while wanting to find a nice guy while men that complain about those jerk women they choose to go out with while complaining about wanting to find a nice woman are called Nice Guys. (But as a say I see this as a guy so I don’t pretend that this is the only way it goes.)

                  As far as I can tell, the good guys usually win in the end. Maybe we need to think of our sex lives as a marathon, not a sprint. Something to last a lifetime, not a night time.
                  But as runners sometimes choose to do sprints or marathons men and women choose one stands and long relationships. It might be a bit limiting to imply that we should look at them just as a marathon. Almost makes it sound like a person that wants to look for a sprint to engage in but cannot find one is inherently thinking about sex in the wrong way.

                  And with good guys “winning in the end”. Sure we can’t mean that short term desires going unfulfilled should be justified on the premise that in the long term things will usually work out for them. I think this might be a flaw in regards to thinking about one’s love life as short term or long term.

                  Take a person that goes decades without meeting anyone. Obviously it would be short sighted to say that they ought to look to the long term and tell them they will win in the end.

                  And beyond all that, we are all attracted to what we’re attracted to. I spent plenty of time wishing there were more men who were attracted to flat chested brainiacs who wear Converse while my booby and fashionable friends were getting wined, dined and fucked. We don’t always get what we want when we want it, that’s the way life works. And not just for men, or one type of men. For everyone.
                  I think the reason guys think it may only be happening to them is because time and time again they see women in similar positions being given a leeway on their choices that is not extended to men. Yes I know as women you have your own burdens.

                  But when you regularly see women that choose jerks being consoled and told that it was his fault not her but them are told that you and you along are responsible for choosing those crazy girls (while being beat over the head with all sorts of other so called privileges that you supposedly have) it weighs on you. It builds up.

                • @Alyssa Royse

                  “As far as I can tell, the good guys usually win in the end.”

                  I scoff at the notion. Seriously. When he does “win” he usually get a woman who now wants to place all kinds of damn emotional preconditions on him for sex.

                  This is just what makes me seethe with anger. How has the nice guy won? Only a woman would say such. He ends up with a shitty sex life and not much else to show. It just is not worth it, at all.

                  I simply despise the notion that I am being treated as a second class citizen. Then, according to many women, I am suppose to be happy! Because in the end, I won. Won what? A bunch of emotional garbage and a shitty sex life? Who wants that prize? Not me.

                  • Dude, I’m 23, married at 22 to a good man, and let me tell you, my gorgeous amazing, kind wonderful husband, gets miraculous, amazing mind blowing sex every night, blowjobs whenever, and I’m an ex stripper, current fetish model and the primary winner, so if you want to whine about women, and feminists and anything else, keep that in mind.

                    • Madeira

                      Let me explain to you how your situation is different.

                      In your situation you would ALSO have considered your husband for a fling or casual sex.

                      The problem many men are referring to is the fact that many women marry men they wouldnt have considered for casual sex or fling but married due to their ‘other’ noble qualities. And that is effed up.

                      Just look at Adrians comment above.

                    • @Maderia…

                      Talk to me when you’re 30 with a couple of kids and grown bored with hubby…..

                      Right now, you’re “too new to rate.” Sorry.

                • Funnily enough the “crazy” women I know are not conventionally attractive, and most of the nice women I know are actually pretty damn beautiful, some are models. I stepped into the twilight zone I think, just a pity the nice ones I know are married:P

                • wellokaythen says:

                  In my (admittedly limited) experience, the stereotype that crazy women are fantastic sex partners is not a universal truth. Don’t believe the hype. Or, no matter how hot the sex is, that may not be enough to outweigh the rest of the insanity.

              • @Danny,

                “When men do that it’s called “sowing one’s wild oats” and if frankly looked down upon. But when women do it they are just “daring to be sexual”. (I know it’s not that clear cut down the middle but there are very strong messages to that effect.)”

                Very few men I know of get to “sow their wild oats.” It’s always the same 15-20% of men whom women find universally or conventionally attractive. Some of which are bad boys.

                So, Mr. Nice is just suppose to “hang” while the woman enjoys herself? Why on earth would I want such a woman? What is their left? In my view she has been used and abused. Hence, I will pass.

          • No, most of us do not….It’s a privilege for those with a lot of sexual attractiveness, a mix of luck and the confidence n mindset to do so. There are many men here who probably never had women approach them, got rejected a lot, maybe had at most 1-3 partners in their 20’s. I’ve had one partner so far and I’m in my late 20’s, there’s no crazy chick carousel for me, I have enough trouble finding 1 single woman here.

            I guess I could point out your “privilege” in attractiveness if you had multiple partners in your 20’s. Realize that not everyone gets it, which kinda proves peoples point about women getting far more casual sex opportunities, and probably more sexual opportunities overall. Usually only the “alpha’s” get to ride the train, many of which are assholes prob as so many mention. Most of the “nice” guys are probably too shy to be able to ask out enough people to get such a succession of crazy let alone any chicks, or maybe they just aren’t interested. I myself only really want love, although I’ll settle for a good fuckbuddy but I’m not interested in multiple partners (sti + pregnancy scare the shit out of me).

            I think the ladies here might want to keep in mind how rare it is for guys to actually get access to any carousel, a woman’s ability to get multiple sexual relationships I do believe is far greater on average. It seems women are far more choosey of who they have sex with and who they date for these short term flings than men, probably evens out in long-term relationships though.

            • This archy.
              Why most guys complain is probably this reason alone.
              The innability to get the same chances to sex that women can.
              You can twist this in so many ways but this is it.

              Me personaly is annoyed of the laziness of women. If you acctually like the guys. Put your fucking back into it and seduce him back.
              Women that go for bad boys usually are the ones that are bad in bed. Thats why they need a guy that can take charge. so that they don’t need to do SOME of the work.

              • …well on that note it wouldn’t kill men to show a little skin and look sexier, long hair, a little makeup and some leather pants go a long way if you ask me. Women are expected to do an insane amount of work to be deemed “acceptable”.

                Did you know that in 15th century Germany when men wore miniskirts and tights (essentially) and women’s clothing was very frumpy by comparison the stereotypes about gender were reversed (men wanted to settle down and get commitment, while all women wanted was sex)

                Personally because I like pretty men who put as mucb work in as I do, I’ve always “seduced them back” and I made the first move to go after my amazing husband… so

                • I don’t think many women realize the work that men put into “looking good”. See for men not only does it require work on our bodies such as shaving, working out, it requires work on career n making decent incomes to be seen as sexy in many cases.

                  • For casual sex? I don’t think so… then again, I’ve only ever dated/wanted impecunious artists. Men aren’t obligated to shave their bodies, and men are societally expected to wear their hair short (which is actually, according to science, inherently unsexy). Men’s clothing is loose/doesn’t show much skin, and women wear makeup while men don’t, all of this adds up to men not pandering to the female gaze enough for casual sex to be easily obtainable.

                    • You are one woman, I’ve heard women tell me how sexy is it to have body hair and others tell me how disgusting it is. Who do we dress for? Who do we style for? Men have major social pressures to shaving their face though, and also pressure to NOT shave their legs, etc (homophobia). Men often do try to show off for female gaze, or what they assume female gaze to be….how many women do you see consuming “bulking” and protein shakes whilst trying to make their muscles look huge? Both genders spend a lot of time preening themselves for who they want to attract, and if you want anything more than casual sex then having a decent career is hugely important for many women. I am yet to see masses of women ready to date men who are unemployed or earn little, yet I see plenty of men ok with dating women who are unemployed or earn little. Society pressures men to be providers which makes them sexy, society pressures women to look good which makes them sexy.

                      Many men have to make a much greater effort to get casual sex than women…How often have you been hit on? Most men have been hit on a total of 0 times. Even to get casual sex you need to be somewhat attractive, which usually for men means wear decent clothing + workout a lot.

                    • Madeira

                      You know if men could have a fool proof guaranteed FORMULA that could get us female attention, turn on women and get us laid, it would’ve been an effin SCIENCE by now.

                      Some of you women try to portray that MAKEUP is a burden for you and men have it easy. I say it is a huge advantage to you women. By putting on makeup, mediocre looking plain faces can become significantly more attractive and appealing to men. We men dont have makeup. We cant do anything to make our faces more attractive and aesthetically pleasing. Only the genuinely handsome faces get womens attention.

                      Any average looking woman can shave/wax her legs and show them off and men would instinctively like it. Men get instinctively turned on by seeing womens bodies and skin. Our bodies dont have the same impact on you women unless they belong to men who resemble Greek Gods. Those are the only bodies you women value sexually and aesthetically. While we men place sexual value on the breasts, butts, legs, abs of even average looking women.

                      If shaving my legs got women attracted to me and helped me obtain casual sex, I assure you I’d be doing it every single day. I assure you it would be a big industry by now. But usually it does little beyond getting us labelled ‘gay’.

                      You women are just more selective. You just find very few men sexually desirable. You are naturally like that. Stop trying to blame culture and norms.

                • Madeira

                  Women dont have to be anything special to obtain casual sex. What can explain why average looking women who are mediocre in every aspect can expect to be approached by men for casual sex?

                  • Because due to the amount of work women are expected to do to look “presentable” by societal standards, the average for women is higher then for men.

                    In society’s where men put more effort than women into their appearance, the stereotype is almost universally reversed (fifteenth century germany for example, the men wore sheer hose and short short tunics, whereas women’s garments showed next to nothing, and men were stereotypically all about commitment while women supposedly were all about sex)

                    • Bullshit. Women that wear no makeup and boring clothes will still probably get approached for casual sex far more than men doing the same. Women seem to overestimate the importance of makeup n clothing….

                    • I dont know about the 15th century Germany, but I do know that if an average looking young woman who does little beyond taking a bath, putting on a $10 jeans and a top, and making a pony tail will get more action than an average looking young guy who does more or less the same.

                      Even over-weight, chubby, mediocre looking women can get laid easily. Even if they dont have a good education and are struggling financially. Even if they are insecure (they dont require ‘confidence’ either’. Interestingly young women with low self esteem often end up getting laid more than they would’ve wanted.

                      You need to look more closely at the dynamics of the casual sex marketplace. You dont know what goes in the bar and online hooking up scene.

                      Mediocre looking women can get laid so easily that sometimes even they have a good laugh about it among themselves.

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWg9iSKxgAI

                    • The other thing that I think comes into play is women’s socially programmed fear of men, we’re told our entire lives “Don’t get raped, don’t get raped” so sex with a strange guy can be anxiety provoking.

                      I’m bisexual, and have found it’s ultimately, absurdly easy for me (a woman) to have casual sex with women. I can go into a straight bar, do nothing but sit at the bar and hang out, and within half an hour or so I could have a lady I don’t know diddling me in the bathroom (I decline these offers, but it does say something I think that I keep getting asked, and while I do think based on my income at my rather appearance based job I must be fairly pretty, I don’t think I’m Aphrodite with magical powers or anything) and I think it’s really telling, that straight girls, with no boyfriend they’re trying to entertain in sight, offer to have sex with me, they’d rather have sex with someone they’re honestly not that likely to feel raw physical attraction towards, than someone society has taught them to be scared of.

                    • That’s a problem that women are taught to fear men so much. There are plenty of single guys that won’t harm a woman but get no play partially over those fears probably. I wonder what would happen if we could guarantee safety and no risk of rape, sti’s, maybe have a robot watching guard, super condoms or sti’s get eliminated. Would the world have 1000x more sex?

                • But, are you not a stripper?

                  I think that kind of “skews” your outlook a bit.

                  Just saying.

          • FlyingKal says:

            @Alyssa Royse:
            Ah, most of us have ridden that ride. Don’t guys ride the “crazy chick train” as well?
            MOST of us? Do you really think so?

            As was mentioned above, that’s largely part and parcel of the “young and stupid” stage that many people go through. I have done an awful lot of learning about myself and my sexuality with men who were not suitable relationship partners, but offered me great lessons.
            Then what do you think about a person who haven’t gone through this phase, either by choice, or by inability?

            Thankfully, with a full life of experiences that enabled us to learn what really matters. Most of the assholes I know are still single. Actually, same with the crazy chicks.
            Well I guess I must be a bad person then, since I haven’t had all this experience to learn what really matters..

            But I guess these guys and chicks are single for a reason, but it might not be the reason you think it is?

          • No, because most men don’t actually get those opportunities. Maybe high-status guy ride the crazy train, but most men are lucky if they have 2-3 girlfriends throughout their entire 20’s.

            Virtually any woman can ride the carousel. Only the lower 10-20% are barred from that. Only the top 10-20% men are allowed to ride the crazy train. When you have a situation like that, it’s going to breed a truly massive level of resentment.

            • Anecdote time. A not very conventionally attractive woman told me she has had 30+ men by 25, I’ve never heard a similar looking male say the same. Infact my hottest male friends probably don’t have half of that. I don’t think many people would want that many partners but the number of partners women are capable of getting I do believe are far higher than men for casual sex.

              • @Archy….

                Just hold out a bit longer. When she turns 30 and has blown through 50+ men, she will be just right for you. You can “win.” Because, we know nice guys win out in the end (with much sarcasm). Right?

                Keep Hope Alive!!!

                • Hell no would I have her, she was a user and I got rid of her as a friend long ago. (nothing to do with her count, but her terrible personality)

          • yes Alyssa I would have loved to have a parade of “crazy chicks” going through my bedroom for lots of carefree and NSA sex. Of course the fact that I could only get very few women of _any_ type interested enough for a phone number, and even fewer past a first date really put a damper on my ability to do that. I’m glad to hear you were able to have a sexually fulfilling 20s with bad boys, while I was mostly unwillingly celibate during mine.

            The men in the comments say over and over the reality that it’s very few men who get the opportunity to have lots of carefree sex in their 20s. However I constantly see women like you saying “well everyone does it” (to justify their own “privilege” that they took advantage of when it comes to sex) when it’s just not true. Why is this _fact_ never acknowledged?

            • I’ve noticed this too, quite a few females have told of how they got these opportunities yet very rarely do I see men talking about it. I’d love to see women acknowledge this privilege.

              • but Archy they won’t acknowledge it and the response you will get is “it’s not a privilege because it’s not the sex I _wanted_” (can’t remember what thread that kept coming up in). They’ll claim no privilege since they weren’t in a emotionally supportive relationship where they got everything they wanted.

            • Be it here or the Huffington Post or wherever, the vast majority of times, it is always women who gloat about their sexcapdes. Of course, it is either followed by the “I was young and dumb”, “I need to experiment to find what I like” or other reason.

              I know of very few forums where men talk openly about dating/sexing 4-5 or more men a year! The men who are doing so are too busy enjoying themselves! Cannot say I much blame them if I were into that sort of thing.

              Just the facts.

              • and the articles by men about that subject are greeted with some variations of:

                “just proves men are dogs!”
                “This is so horrible for him to be using women”
                “I hope you’re proud of objectifying women”
                “This is terrible, why can’t you get to know a woman and love her for who she is?”
                “you are so disrespectful. I would never go out with you!”

                When men want NSA sex women react like it’s a horrible thing that shows how men are animals who only “want one thing”, and hold it up as an example of how men’s attitudes about women need to change.
                When women want NSA sex it’s a wonderful coming of age experience that helped them to grow and mature and become the woman they were meant to be (the old finding their “authentic selves”), and it’s held up as an example of something all women should experience before settling down.

                • …oh for the love of *eyeroll* I was absolutely tortured for being a “slut” in highschool. Girls wouldn’t speak to me, boys threw prophylactics at me, funny thing was I had a girlfriend for all of it (and although I identified as bisexual I was completely monogamous) So no, sexual experience is not treated like a plus or something to brag about for women, and personally I don’t give a flying you know what if a man enjoys casual sex. I’ve had plenty of casual sex in my life with men and women, and the only time I’ve judged a man for wanting casual sex was when he thought he had to lie about wanting a relationship to get me into bed (before I was married, they never did, hell I didn’t expect a casual lay to even buy me dinner, just be polite and good company and have fun).

        • ahahahahahaa first time I’ve heard of it, sounds quite funny.

      • ah carousel, the liverpool fc, celtic fc anthem
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzJqv_Oj_W0

        the pastor was really talking about the ‘coccck carousel’ that is another name for mounting bad bwoi after bad bwoi, and the excitation of the woman’s emotions

      • For a moment there I thought you were going to actually say something that was useful to the conversation.

        To quote Jules:

        FINE! Then keep it moving.

    • @Pastor of Muppets

      “…..that the comments thread has turned into a recitation of every lame, tired manosphere trope out there.”

      FINE! Then keep it moving.

    • Mr Supertypo says:

      @pastor, most of the comments are intelligent and polite. There are a few where somebody complain and argue, but as you can see it turn out quite well. Finally there are very few comments who are borderline trolling (ironically including yours) so as others have pointed out…do you have something intelligent to say? please share otherwise…dont disturb.

  16. Ok, let me see if I can tightrope my way through the society vs. biology vs. agency flotsam and jetsam.

    A lot of women are attracted to Bad Boys. *Partially* because of the social constructs that present bad boys as desirable. *Partially* because of biological reasons relevant to pheromones, testosterone, ovulation, and a host of other things that go one behind the scenes while we’re unaware. *Sometimes* her past experience with men, going back to childhood, may influence her taste in dating partners. And part of it is inexplicable – Why is anyone attracted to anyone, after all? You can point out influencers all day, but I still hold there’s something unique to each individual, something that can’t be quantified, that plays into who we feel attracted to.

    Now, where AGENCY steps in: Any woman can find herself attracted to a Bad Guy. But at that moment, it is her choice to engage with him on a romantic and/or sexual level – whether to initiate it, or to respond to his initiation. Some women engage with Bad Guys with the belief that he will change, or more specifically, that she can change him. Some women don’t see the Bad Boy in him and write off his bad behaviors and traits because they are infatuated with some other aspect of him.
    Some women don’t believe they deserve any better. And some women go into such relationships with eyes wide open, knowing what kind of personality they’re dealing with and accepting the possible consequences (and benefits) of a relationship with him.

    In any case, no matter the circumstances or the influencers, she is ultimately responsible for her choice. But I want to make something clear to all those who are throwing around the Agency argument to fend off the Influencers argument.

    You can call a woman out on her responsibility for her choices and ask her to cut the B.S. excuses and justifications and just own up to it. But don’t insist that she accept agency in her actions, and then turn around and tell her how to act or who/what to choose. That smacks of a particular P-word I know y’all aren’t fond of, but moreover, it revokes the agency you just asked her to own up to.

    Because when I see men pushing the Agency point, I see something else going on, too. They don’t *just* want women to acknowledge their agency, they want them to reform. They hope that when a woman finally says “Yes, I only go for assholes,” her next sentence should be “And now that I’m conscious of this, I’m going to change and start giving Nice Guys a chance.” (See also, Kat’s comment above about why she chooses bad boys for casual sex, and the response thanking her for her honesty and imploring her to give nice guys the same opportunity to get laid.)

    I don’t mean to say that only men do this, this cornering into admission of responsibility with the expectation of prompting change; hell, that’s a driving force behind many social movements that both men and women participate in. But in the context of this discussion, I just hope all those who insist on women claiming their agency knows what that really means: she has the freedom to choose, she knows she has this freedom, and she will continue to choose in whichever way pleases her at any given time — and that choice may still not favor you. If pushing her to claim responsibility makes you feel better, then I guess go ahead, but don’t expect it to affect your odds.

    • High 5 KKZ, Your comment should be comment of the day. Why does it appear agency and the socialization issues cannot both be accepted by the author?

      • Thanks for the endorsement, Archy.

        To answer your question… “Why are women attracted to assholes” and “Why do women choose to date/sex/marry assholes” are two different questions that get lumped into one discussion. It’s like asking “Why do so many people like chocolate?” There are social reasons – chocolate is marketed as desirable, no doubt. There are biological reasons – it tastes good to most palates. There are personal reasons – a person who grew up consuming chocolate has developed a taste for it. But if you (not you personally – general you) keep pushing a person to explain why they like chocolate more than other flavors in an effort to get them to accept their agency for choosing chocolate all the time, when all other reasons and excuses have been discarded, it comes down to a shrug and “There’s no accounting for taste.”

        Some people just can’t accept that answer, it seems. They want to know WHY, because if there’s a WHY, then there’s something concrete, something they might be able to control for or change. They may say “Why do women go for Bad Boys,” but what they’re really asking is “Why don’t women go for ME?!?” And the answer is, ironically, the same: There’s no accounting for taste.

        • KKZ,

          I’m in a relationship with someone who spent a couple of decades trying to make a relationship work with a guy who is objectively more “exciting” than me. She sometimes says something to the effect that “we” wouldn’t have been attracted to each other if we had met at 20 or 25 or 30. I don’t think she’s really aware of what she’s saying, or her mistake in including me in the comment. I’d have been attracted to her at any age.

          I’m happy in this relationship. I think she genuinely desires me as I do her. I don’t think she settled for me or that I’m a consolation prize. Yet I have this niggling little irritation since her “we” is really “she” wouldn’t have been attracted to me when we were younger. I keep that in irritation incheck, but I feel a bit like someone who was invisible before a big weight loss or some other transformation made the person suddenly more real to people who never saw him or her before the change.

          The women who prefer exciting, dangerous, men and continue to have short term relationships woth them, or failed attempts at long term, really aren’t on my radar because I’ve never been on theirs. But the woman whose “tastes” change do leave me asking how exactly I should feel now that she sees me, if only out of a sense of loyalty to my former, invisible self.

          Then that loyalty turns to tension, followed by some deep breaths. How do I feel?

          • Hi Adrian. You make a good and well-communicated point, thanks for sharing your experience.

            If I imagine myself in your situation and hearing the same sentiment from someone I cared about and found attractive, I can understand how it would hurt. ESPECIALLY if she didn’t even know you at that age and thus couldn’t really make a call in the present about how she would have felt in the past.

            I’m guessing there are two things at work here.

            One, her opinion of herself at 20, 25, 30. Maybe in hindsight, she sees herself as someone who would not have been compatible with you. Either because her tastes lay elsewhere at the time, or because she doesn’t see her past self as being as attractive as she perceives herself now. Maybe she looks back on that decade of her life with some regrets, or rolls her eyes at how immature she was, and assumes that because she doesn’t view her past self favorably, you wouldn’t have, either.

            A second possibility is that she’s trying not to hurt your feelings with the suggestion that you are, have been, or ever could be, unattractive to her. This does sound a bit to me like some of the linguistic tricks women are taught to pad something we don’t really want to say and avoid being the Bad Guy in any given situation. She doesn’t want you to think the lack of attraction would have been only on her side, so she includes you. She also may not want to imply that her role in the initiation of the relationship was soooo important that, had things been a little different, she would have made a different choice.

            In any case, as you guessed, her statement is more about her than about you. So I advise you not to take it too personally. One’s tastes in anything – cars, movies, music, politics, sex partners – are not immutable attributes. This of course leaves open the uncomfortable possibility that the two of you may not *always* find each other attractive, physically or personally. Nothing I can really say to make that better; it’s just a reality of life and largely outside anyone’s control, the best anyone can do is accept it as a possibility and roll with it.

            • cmon KKZ, you sound too patronizing.

              • I didn’t see KKZ’s response as patronizing. I think it’s a thoughtful and constructive, and I guess that can seem patronizing, but I’m not looking at it as huge negative, so KKZ’s works for me because it contains part of my feeling.

                In direct response to KKZ, I tend to thnk she was thinking out loud, which is a genuinely charming but occasionally biting habit of hers. A question popped into her head and this is the answer she believed to be true. In a sense, she may need to believe it’s true, lest she have to face the implications you listed. I don’t think she’s lying to herself; think that need expressed itself outside her conscious thoughts.

          • It means you are not good looking, hot, popular, enough for her to have considered you for a fling in her wild carefree days. But NOW that she is all ‘mature’ (read she has been jaded and hurt by sexually desirable men) she has settled for you and is making a lot of effort to be attracted to you. Deep down she is bitter and wouldve loved to settle down with the kind of men she liked to bang in her carefree days but ofcourse those men were unavailable. She has to rationalize her choices. She feels you should be honored that she chose you.

            If I were you, my ego would be severely hurt after learning this. I think women should have relationships with men they like to bang. Just like men have relationship with women they like to fuck (You would’ve been attracted to her at any age).

          • Adrian

            It means you are not good looking, hot, popular, enough for her to have considered you for a fling in her wild carefree days. But NOW that she is all ‘mature’ (read she has been jaded and hurt by sexually desirable men) she has settled for you and is making a lot of effort to be attracted to you.

            Deep down she is bitter and wouldve loved to settle down with the kind of men she liked to bang in her carefree days but ofcourse those men were unavailable. She has to rationalize her choices. She feels you should be honored that she chose you.

            If I were you, my ego would be severely hurt after learning this. I think women should have relationships with men they like to bang. Just like men have relationship with women they like to fuck (You would’ve been attracted to her at any age).

            • Hey Tim,

              Your take on things isn’t far off from the thoughts I have that somewhat irritate me. I don’t invest in it the way you seem to, though. And then there are a couple of glaring differences.

              First, I see no need or benefit to assume the worst about a situation. What you may claim is reality is merely your interpretation of things. I’m not blind to those things (my situation), but I see them through a less bitter lens than you.

              Second, well I’m not comfortable saying more than how about you read Jules description of married/long term relationship sex for a story I can’t relate to at all.

            • You call it patronizing, I call it optimistic. You present only one reason she could have said what she said, I contend there are other reasons, and not all of them harmful/negative. I wanted to offer Adrian other possibilities than the one he was lingering on, a worst-case scenario. While it’s certainly possible that scenario is true,

              I’m willing to bet she’s not bitter or regretful at all, but rather GLAD that she ended up with Adrian rather than the people she was into when she was 25. Because nine times out of ten, when I’ve had conversations like this with other women, that’s the prevailing attitude – “I might have missed out on this great guy if we had met at a different point in my life” rather than “Boy, those were the days, eh?”

              In any case, I challenge you on this: What is WRONG with admitting that one’s tastes have changed over time? Why do you automatically jump to this being a terrible thing? Our tastes in pretty much everything – food, clothes, music, humor, politics – shift over time. I’m puzzled as to why you think what a person is attracted to is a constant.

              I will grant you that it’s not a very nice thing to throw your former preferences in your lover’s face. No one particularly LIKES hearing about their partner’s sex lives before they came along, and that could include what the partner’s proclivities once were. But it does no good to pretend that your partner has always been the same person, with the same tastes, as she is now. That’s just delusional.

              • KKZ

                I am going to resist the urge to give you a reply longer than this article itself, instead I would ask you a simple question and help you to reach the conclusion yourself.

                QUESTION:
                Why do ONLY women’s preferences in men change so dramatically that many of them settle down with and marry men they wouldn’t have crapped upon in their carefree days when they were having flings?

                Why doesn’t this dramatic change happen with men’s preferences?
                I can assure you there aren’t many men on this planet who are married to women, they wouldn’t have considered for a fling or ‘just sex’

                So tell me? Why does this only happen with women’s preferences? Why is this gender specific?

    • @KKZ…

      “If pushing her to claim responsibility makes you feel better, then I guess go ahead, but don’t expect it to affect your odds.”

      I know it will not get women to change a damn thing. It is still going to be business as usual. The status quo ante will remain.

      Men need to seek out other options. For me it is FWB arrangements, women from other cultures/races, etc.

      For other men, I guess if you can’t beat the bad boys you can join them with PUA, lying, deceit, etc. In the final analysis, does it really matter? If you want sex, you can’t just sit back. You must take action. You can’t win it if you’re not in it!

      • There’s a loophole in your position, Jules,: A lot of women have a taste for assholes, but certainly not all. I know anecdotal evidence doesn’t trump social trends, but I can count a number of my male friends and acquaintances who are not assholes but bona fide nerds and who are happily paired up — or at the very least, they’ve had some measure of success with romance and sex, even if it later fell through. Oddly enough, the one guy in the group whom I’d call an asshole is, and has been, alone, with no good leads for quite some time.

        A lot of women also ‘experiment’ with bad boys at some point in their romantic life. But when women tell these stories to each other, nine times out of ten you will hear some variation of the phrase “I was young and stupid.” In other words, for a great many women, the wisdom to avoid choosing assholes only comes at the cost of having been burned by one (or two, or ten – old habits are hard to break). And there’s no guarantee it will ever come, hence the women who turn a curious or naive experimentation into a pattern.

        The female analogue to “Why do women go for assholes?” is “Why do men still want the women who go for assholes?” It is, in essence, the exact same question and same argument. Nice Guys contend that there is a sea of available Nice Guys like them out there for women to choose from, and yet they still choose jerks. I’m here contending that there is a sea of available Women Who Don’t Like Jerks out there for men to choose from, and yet they still obsess over the ones who choose jerks.

        Now, why these two groups can’t find each other is beyond me, but I’m guessing confirmation bias plays a big role in making each blind to the other’s existence. In that case, everybody loses, and by that logic I can’t say I find fault in your method of skirting the normal models and opting for that which gives you the most freedom. If that makes you happy and you’re not hurting anyone, more power to you, I suppose. I just wish it didn’t have to come down to that, for you or for anyone.

        • misterschmiggles says:

          Great post, KKZ. I think if people paid closer attention to what’s going on in their social circles, they’d realize pretty quickly that lots of women like good guys and vice versa. Confirmation bias is right.

          Another point I’d make–sometimes a guy only becomes an “asshole” because he “stole” a woman another man was interested in, even though she told that other guy she wasn’t interested in him. Happened to me a bunch of times with an old friend, and now he doesn’t talk to me. It’s really just jealousy, because I don’t fit the jerk stereotype at all, and he never thought I was a jerk until that happened more than once (he was interested in basically every woman who came into our social circle)

        • @KKZ….

          While I am stridently against legalized prostitution, maybe that is part of the solution. There are just too many men in this country who are involuntarily celibate. They are good men who want relationships, sex, families, etc.

          It is a hard pill for me to swallow, but maybe its time has come.

          Personally, I have gotten around this dysfunctional and crazy sexual dynamic we have by having two FWBs. Why two you might wonder? After my divorce, I vowed NEVER to put my sexual pleasure and well being in the hands of one woman again. Nor do I have a desire for marriage or any other type of committed relationship, or even dating for that matter.

          I was never a guy who chased women or sought a lot of sex partners. I am 50 and have been with only 6 women, including my first at age 20 as a junior in college. There was a period of roughly five years or so with no sex as I was not dating. I never did or believed in casual sex.

          So, when I got married I was looking forward to a fulfilling sex life, among other things and responsibilities. God, how naive and stupid. Benjamin Franklin once said, “Experience is the fool’s best teacher. The wise don’t need it” He was right. Well I am wise now. But, just look at all the lost years that I can never get back.

          For those men (and their are many) who have not been able to successfully navigate the system as I have, legalized prostitution might serve them well. Maybe they will get some confidence plus fulfill a biological need.

          Waiting around a decade or two for a half ass sex life in marriage is just not worth the wasted time and energy. You only get once crack at this thing called life. So, enjoy it and make the most of it.

          JMO

          • Hi again Jules. As I said to Jamesq, I spent way too much work time on these comments yesterday (and feel a little bad about eating up the page) so I’ll try to keep this brief.

            I can certainly understand how your experience with committed relationships and marriage has informed the decisions you’ve made in the present about what kind of sex life you want. I applaud you for your authenticity, and do not begrudge you your model for a happy and satisfying sex life. (In fact, from what I’ve gathered, it’s not uncommon for people around your age and in your situation to pursue relationships with looser boundaries.) So, on that level, I’m good with you.

            The only thing that irks me about your comments is that you don’t just say “This is what I do and why I do it and it works for me,” but seem to push this message your way is the only way men can find sexual satisfaction, that marriage is inevitably disappointing to all who enter it, and that men are foolish to even consider the possibility of sexual satisfaction within marriage.

            Maybe, at half your age, I’m just young, idealistic, and unspoiled by experiences like yours, but whenever I read comments like that from you, every brain cell I have shouts “Not so!” Of course there are marriages that fail and leave both partners feeling unsatisfied and resentful. But I don’t think it’s inevitable or universal, as you’ve presented it. That’s the only point I take issue with you on, the projecting of your experience across your entire gender. Perhaps, though, we must agree to disagree, and I can offer to never bug you about these generalizations again.

            Legalized prostitution will have to be a topic for another day, I’m out of time.

            • @KKZ….

              Thanks for your comments. I do respect your point of view.

              I have to be realistic in life. After all, that why it is called reality. Reality for me is to look at the data. Not just my experience to be projected but real world data.

              First, marriage is a failure. When something has only a 50% success rate, we cannot call such a thing a successful undertaking. Does that mean all marriages are failures? Of course not. There are lots (millions) of vibrant and fulfilling marriages, sexually, spiritually, and otherwise. However, the data tells me that the odds of success are the same as getting a head on a fair coin toss!

              Secondly, lets take a look at sex within marriage. It is estimated that nearly one-third of all marriages are sexless (defined as intercourse fewer than 10 times per calendar year). To this you can add the many millions of men who are sexually frustrated within marriage. Again, all of this is well documented.

              So, far from generalizing and projecting I am simply reflecting what is happening in terms of reality. It is not all bad obviously, but you should never go against the trend. Odds are you will not succeed.

              No, my message is NOT the only way. and no, not all marriages will be as shitty as mine. But, in my humble opinion, most men will discover (and I do mean MOST) that marriage is not sexually satisfying.

              If you were to randomly select 100 married men (more than 5 years) and ask them to rate their sex life, I am willing to bet you a large sum of money that most will say they dissatisfied. I spent and do spend a lot of time around married men. Lack of sex is their #1 complaint. Trust me.

              Hence, again I am not projecting here. What works for me, might not work for other men. But, I think you are very idealistic about this matter. But, for those of us who have suffered through the torment it is real.

              With good and decent men, we suffer in silence. Most love their wives and families. As a man, you are taught to “suck it up.” Thus, the quite desperation with so many men.

              • Maybe it is all about age. I’ve only been married 3 years, after all, and I don’t make a habit of asking men who have been married for longer than I’ve been alive about their sexual satisfaction. Maybe it’s wrong of me to assume that when I see a married couple in their 50s who seem to have a happy and healthy relationship, that everything is also OK in the bedroom.

                Your past is my future – which is to say, all the years of marriage you went through are still ahead for me. And from my view, my future is yet unwritten, and certainly not determined by stats and trends, but by the attention and effort I put forth. I know it will take effort and attention to make my marriage work over time. I also recognize the not entirely unlikely possibility that we could fail, that we could reach a point in time where we are so incompatible that we no longer function as a couple. But to me, it’s not a done deal. It’s stories like yours that make me even more determined to put in the effort and be attentive to the state of my marriage and my husband’s needs, rather than throw in the towel early because it could very well all turn to dust in 5, 10, 20 years. Yes, it’s a gamble. If I lose, I lose HARD (and due to family court and such, my husband may lose even harder). But the rewards of a mutually satisfying marriage are worth that risk to me. And I just hate to think of young men out there being discouraged from even giving marriage a fair try because they’ve been told that probability-wise, they’re just as likely to fail as succeed.

    • @KKZ:
      Because when I see men pushing the Agency point, I see something else going on, too. They don’t *just* want women to acknowledge their agency, they want them to reform.

      I see that in no small part being dependent on the women themselves often acknowledging that being turned on by and attracted to the “bad guy” is something they can’t help.
      Now that’s not what Kat was doing, but it’s usually very common in discussions like this.

      • As I mentioned above, and admittedly got off track, “Why are women attracted to assholes?” and “Why do women choose to date/sex/marry assholes?” are two different questions that often get lumped together.

        Why are women attracted to assholes? Well jeez, what a can of worms. Why is anyone attracted to anyone? Strip away the social, personal and biological components, and you’re left with the enigmatic nature of attraction. Those social, personal and biological components are valid, but they are merely layers of an incomprehensible onion.

        Why do women choose to date/sex/marry assholes? THAT is what I think most men want the answer to, but the question is rarely phrased that way. If we’re talking about women in general, we sort of have no choice but to look at the social and biological layers because those are (to a degree) universal – not everyone experiences them the same way, but they do have some sort of grip on us all.
        You’d do better, though, to ask a woman with a pattern of coupling with assholes why she chooses them. And you might be surprised to find she’s probably asked herself the same question. Every woman I know who’s been in such a pattern eventually reaches a point where she recognizes that the common denominator in her failed relationships is HER, and begins to question her taste in men. Now, it’s entirely possible some women never reach that point. And even for those who do, I’ve seen at least one friend relapse and turn in on herself, convinced that she’s just a screw-up and deserves no better, that she’s helpless in who she’s attracted to (thus denying her agency) and this is as good as it gets.

        In any case, in real life or in online discussions, people don’t like being forced to admit they screwed up (or are screwing up). So that’s why, when this question is posed, all the social, biological and personal layers are the first things we dive into. When those are all peeled back, we’re left with ourselves, our proclivities, and our decisions. It can be an uncomfortable spot to find ourselves in and we may fight it tooth and nail, especially if it’s random strangers on the internet trying to get us to take responsibility for it.

    • “Because when I see men pushing the Agency point, I see something else going on, too. They don’t *just* want women to acknowledge their agency, they want them to reform. They hope that when a woman finally says “Yes, I only go for assholes,” her next sentence should be “And now that I’m conscious of this, I’m going to change and start giving Nice Guys a chance.” ”
      ——-
      I actually care if their next sentence is if they are going to change. I think most men would be happy with just the admission they like assholes. That way men would know that particular women is looking for something they can’t provide and be able to move on. The problem is men hear from women “there are no nice guys out there” while they are dating an asshole so we can’t even get an admission that’s what the woman actually likes.

      Even when women do admit that a guy they dated was an asshole, the current insulation from why they won’t date a nice guy is “he wasn’t that nice after all because he wanted sex”. So there’s not even honesty with the second part of all this. That’s why I’d settle for just the first admission. It would make life easier for everyone.

      • I too have no patience for “There are no nice guys out there.” To my view, that’s a pretty lame excuse to continue pursuing crappy candidates, one that helpfully poses the woman as the victim of scarcity. I have a mental roster of single male friends who are decidedly not assholes, should I ever encounter a woman who needs proof that they exist.

        • Common Sense says:

          I love it when feminists use the “No one is entitled to have sex” crap when talking about the fake nice guys (which I agree definitely do exist) being nice to a women and than expecting her to have sex with them…..but somehow the same exact entitlement (just gone about a different way) from the bad boy/Aholes is perfectly acceptable??? Hm……….

          It’s also funny how feminists say that no one is entitled to sex but than somehow they are entitled to my hard earned tax dollars (which often go to support single mother bums on welfare) through welfare and food stamps….How about no one is entitled to ANYTHING….I’m not entitled to sex and you aren’t entitled to steal my hard earned money to support you stupid bastard single mother kids.

  17. This article was quite a tease. I saw the title and thought “Wow! some actual answers to a question that has befuddled men for generations!” It ended up with the usual feminist dogma. It’s the fault of soceity, which we all know is dominated by the evil patriarcal men. Therefore, it’s the fault of men and can only be rectified by men changing their ways. What a bummer.

    • …oh FFS, there’s social programming involved, there of course are also just some people that go for assholes (usually because they themselves are assholes)

  18. @Melissa Fabello
    “And we’re taught from early on—just like we are with women and femininity—that what society wants in our men is the former [aggressive, sexual, restricting, and stoic], not the latter [intellectual, emotional, artsy, and cultured].”

    That’s an amazingly incorrect notion.

    You know darn well that we are not socialized to be aggressive and certainly not to be sexual. I’m not sure what “restricting” is supposed to mean in this context and I suppose stoic is up for grabs.

    The fact of the matter is that boys are taught from their mother’s knee to be exactly that “good-guy” the author, Melissa, says is boring. That is the very definition of socialization, but if you want more, the schools we’ve established certainly try to socialize us into being intellectual, cultural, artsy and you left out punctual.

    But that IS boring. It’s the strong who resist that, right? The socialized will serve Genghis Khan. Those who remain in a state of nature are unsocialized, selfish, needy and just like a baby, cute.

    So if you’re a woman, who would you rather date? Someone who will be used by the great Khan, or the Great Khan himself? Who’s children would you rather bear? (And don’t kid yourself. By the age of 14, boys know the answer.)

    Of course, there’s only one of him. The pretenders to the throne tend to get into a lot of fights with a lot of other pretenders, which doesn’t do anybody much good.

    No, Melissa’s way of looking at this only leads down dark alleys. There’s a better way to view the picture. No one is completely a “bad boy” or completely a “good girl” or any one of those types. We are all good guys some of the time, bad boys some of the time, and each of us varies in that percentage. It’s up to each individual to decide how much of each is tolerable in a partner and in ourselves.

  19. @jules- Wow- Angry much? Enjoy the hookers- sounds like you have given up on pretty much everything else…

    God, I will never understand the twisted logic of women’s thinking about sex. Nor do I ever want to understand it
    True- But I have also been taught that if you believe you will, or you wont, you are correct. I will simply state that I believe you.

    All I can say is I will never go for this pack of lies ever again. Just as you want the guy for a lay, that’s all I want from women. A great fuck. And that’s all she is going to get.

    Know something jules? I doubt that a “great fuck” is what she is actually going to get. Call me crazy, it’s just a hunch. You term yourself a nice guy, and then lament that ALL that women want is the bad boy, leaving little ol’ you with no real chance. Again- I believe you. You don’t stand a chance- Know why? Because judging from the abundant comments you have laid out here- you may not qualify as a bad boy, but you sure sound like an asshole!! (Damn, and by your own logic, that SHOULD be working for you….Well- I’m stumped)

    “We’re not all that different – men and women – but we exhibit many of the same traits in different ways.”

    WRONG!! We are very different. Men are driven largely by logic and reason. Women are driven by emotions with logic and reason kicking in later in life.

    Weeeeeell, Gotta disagree with you again….I have met a lot of 18 year old men…( In fact, I was one) not that many are driven by logic and reason. Based on my experiences, that comes along later in life for many people. Some later that others. One might rephrase it to state that men are simple creatures, in that we do what works. Being a bad boy works, so men do that. (Those that can, anyway- My take on you is your “bad boy” persona simply comes off as creepy, sinister, and threatening- so you went back to your good boy self- which has now been irretrievably damaged- and now your just a creepy loner that cant get laid. Sounds like you will be teaching your son that all women are good for is a sex. Very sad. Funny to infer that when you are decrying the boxes that folks fit in. While we all (Male and female) make our own (Many times flawed) decisions about dating, sex and relationships, there are numerous generalities that can be made, because they repeat themselves over and over. Its funny to state ;

    BS!!! How many men can get these women? Very few. The bad boys are the ONLY men who can have free reign with ALL women.

    yet seem offended that men can be pigeonholed. That society (Or at least ALL women, have decided, that ALL bad boys have free reign with ALL women) has decided, it just makes you sound really, really angry. Seriously, jules- have a drink, calm the fuck down. You might not have to pay for quite so many hookers. You have a son that you are raising- someone must have decided to have sex with you. OH_ Evidently, not that much, based on these gems….

    BUT, WHEN IT IT COMES SEX WITH THEIR HUSBANDS, THESE SAME WOMEN COULD CARE LESS. THEY STILL WANT THE “EXCITEMENT” OF THE ASSHOLE. THERE HUSBANDS ARE THOUGHT OF AS UNDESERVING OF THE SEX THEY GAVE MR. BAD ASS WHO ALREADY HAS A DAMN HAREM.

    Just where do you women get off thinking you have the power of God to determine this kind of shit? But, when you want a long term relationship or marriage, you come knocking on Mr. Nice Guys door. I think it is disgusting behavior. Then to add insult, most of you will barely even have sex with your husbands.

    BAAAAAMMM. There it is. Oh, and they get the idea from the new fangled idea that they DO get to choose whom they have sex with. So do you…you just have to buy it.

    You know when they say- “Its not you, its me”. Jules, baby- its you. Enjoy growing older and more bitter every year. Just take your own advice….

    Men are not socialized to be assholes. Nor are women socialized to be whores.
    There are all kinds of men on this planet: jerks, introverted, extroverted, successful, unsuccessful, pricks, assholes, criminals, degenerates, bums, lazy, thugs, druggies, you name it. None of these men are socialized to be this way. They freely choose to be such.

    And women freely choose to associate with these men.

    AAAAAnnnd many do not. One problem I see is that you seem to believe in a rich diversity of men, but women? Not so much- despite you pitiful allowance “nor are women socialized to be whores” evidently you believe that EVERY SINGLE ONE simply chooses to be? You sound dangerously close to the edge, my boy. I for one am kind of upset that someone did choose to reproduce with you. Or did she choose? I dunno- sounds like you might have “taken” what you consider yours.

    Peace, love and understanding….Maybe you could look them up. Asshole.

    • Nice catch by the moderators….
      Next time can you put quotes in quotes, it’s difficult to read what is your words and what is the other commenter, and I suggest avoiding insults.

      • @Archy….

        I have been called worse!

        It’s mind over matter: I don’t mind and he does not matter.

        Just another day in the park.

        Cheers!

    • @S Signatz…

      Or shall I call you SS? Just a joke. But, let’s take it from the top.

      Angry? Yes
      Pissed? Yes
      Hookers? No I have two FWBs. Nor do I believe in prostitution.
      Do not trust women? No, I do not. Legacy of divorce I suppose.

      My favorite quote:
      “The things always happens that you really believe in; and the belief in a thing makes it happen” – Frank Lloyd Wright

      So, you’re probably correct: I will never believe in the twisted logic of a lot of women. No argument from me on this one.

      I do not regard myself as Mr. Nice. However, I am certainly NOT a bad boy. I do take pride in maintaining certain levels of decency and conduct. I am not perfect, but I do have standards of behavior. I am just a decent human being but with some flaws like everyone else.

      The reason I have two FWBs is because I am NOT a womanizer (man whore). I am not a man who can do one night stands. I actually have no problem whatsoever getting women for dating. However, I tell them I am with someone at the moment because I do not believe in having multiple sex partners or lying to women.

      As for the “great fuck”, well my FWB always call me on a weekly basis. So, I know I am doing something right. They do have other options I am sure. Between the two of them I have sex 3-4 times a week. If I wanted to add other women, I am very very confident I can. Not bragging, but I am a high status man, charming, kind and gentle in nature, a great listener and pretty intelligent, great education (Vanderbilt). I speak softly but carry a big stick!

      No, I do not teach my son to see women as just a piece of ass. But, that is pretty much how most bad boys see women. But, neither you nor many women seem to be disturbed by this. While I eschew any formal relationships with women, I do not have the right to teach my son. He has to find his own way and comfort level. I am sure he will.

      “You know when they say- “Its not you, its me”. Jules, baby- its you. Enjoy growing older and more bitter every year. Just take your own advice….”

      Sorry, but your are mistaken. But, I will continue to believe as I do until I see evidence to the contrary. People like you are too emotional. Maybe it is my acerbic tone and style. I do not need to pay for anything except my Maserati. But most days, I drive my 4Runner.. So, you really don’t know me at all.

      Lastly, the topic is why women choose assholes not why men choose whores psycho bitches. Many women do not go that route, at all.

      I am the son of a proud Marine (1st Tank Battalion of the 1st Marine Division) who was taught to be disciplined and focused. Never steal or take anything. Go out in life and earn it! That how I have done it my friend. The old fashion way with some help along the way for which I am grateful.

      Btw, I occupy the high ground. I don’t do name calling

      Much Love and Happiness! .

      • Where to begin? I think I am wasting my time, so I will be brief- (Thats relative, of course)

        You don’t do name calling- great- you do shouting (That would be the all capital letters) stereotyping and over generalizing (ALL,ALL,ALL)to deflect from ANY (That was for emphasis, and you can even take it as a yell, I suppose) responsibility for your relationships or dealings with women. While you talk about how wonderful you are in almost every way possible, all the issues have arisen because women simply cannot resist the all powerful bad-boy, and you have simply been cast aside. I feel sorry for you on a number of levels. I can also say perhaps you chose badly in the past?
        You also seem to have no problem with inconsistency….

        “The reason I have two FWBs is because I am NOT a womanizer (man whore). I am not a man who can do one night stands. I actually have no problem whatsoever getting women for dating. However, I tell them I am with someone at the moment because I do not believe in having multiple sex partners or lying to women”

        after all, you have indeed proven to me exactly how big your dick is (Mazerati? I’ll bet its bright red…And the 4runner…and…and…and…wow, you rock. And yet, a woman worthy of your amazing standards has not chosen you for a long term relationship…Allrighty) Oh- and FWB’s is a series of one night stands- No real commitment, just sex. (That is the definition, no?) and while you evidently don’t believe in prostitution (Its real, I swear! OK, that was a bad attempt at a joke) because….why? disease? Do your FWB’s have sex with other men or do you demand monogamy from them. And THEM is the right word, as you also don’t believe in having multiple partners…but dont seem to realize that have 2 does mean you have multiple partners?
        “Not bragging, but” now I am going to do exactly that…
        On the FWB’s- How would you characterize them? It seems to work for both (All 3?) of you, so it sounds like a good solution. But are they “whores psycho bitches”? I also guess its not name calling if its generic and aimed at all women?

        And….

        “I am the son of a proud Marine (1st Tank Battalion of the 1st Marine Division) who was taught to be disciplined and focused. Never steal or take anything. Go out in life and earn it! That how I have done it my friend. The old fashion way with some help along the way for which I am grateful.”

        I must admit, I have no idea what that paragraph has to do with in regards to women liking bad boys. But it is nice.
        Peace.

        • @S Signatz…..

          Thanks for your brevity and those kind words of appreciation (humor of course).

          Yes, sometimes I do shout. But, it is quite rare.

          Yes, I was married for over 15 years. Twelve years of sexual misery. So, someone did love me and chose to “reproduce’ with me. I divorced her.

          The two women I have as FWBs I have known for 8-10 years. They are good friends and good women. They just have not found the men they want, so in the mean time, we enjoy each others’ company. First and foremost, I like a smart and intelligent woman, then personality, then her ass. I don’t get into looks or that Trophy shit.

          If you wish to characterize it as casual sex, by all mean do so. I have two because after my divorce and sexless marriage, I vowed to never entrust my sexual happiness to one woman. That’s the only reason, period. Yes, they do see other men and women. But, I really do not care.

          My Maserati is Black. My 4 Runner is Silver. and no I do not have a small c**k.

          My FWBs are well educated professional women. My favorite is smart. Great personality. Very sociable. Loves to have fun (and sex) But, she is self centered which is why she has problems keeping a man. Too many quirks too. The other is an introverted research pharmacist. Highly intelligent. Likes women too. Fine with me. Finds me charming and intelligent….I just go with the flow. I love to banter with her.

          I do not feel I have been cast aside at all. Actually, women like me. I tend to get along with most of them. I know you find that hard to believe. But, it is indeed very true. Now just because they like me does not mean they all want to screw me. Only a very few in my estimation. I also speak for a lot of good, decent, and frustrated men. What is going on just isn’t right, IMO.

          I met a lady two weeks ago. She is divorced. I was invited to her church over the weekend. I actually went and enjoyed myself. I don’t know about her. She is a vegan. I love to go to steakhouses, cigar bars, and drink bourbon. But, friendship first, always.

          Hopefully, I have improved my standing somewhat in your eyes. If not, as Rhett Butler said in Gone With the Wind, “Frankly, my dear I don’t give a damn!”

          Love and Happiness!

  20. A Hurting Dad says:

    Women lamenting “why are there no nice guys?” drives me freaking nuts.

    Why?

    Maybe it’s because I’ve heard it from women who’ve said I’m a nice guy and any girl would be lucky to be with me. But, when I want to be in a relationship with them, they have excuses about why they don’t want to be in one with me.

    I don’t really care why women like bad guys. I just want women to own it. And if you can’t handle being in a relationship with a guy that does sweet things and is thoughtful and considerate, then don’t complain about not being able to find a nice guy.

    Is that too much to ask?

    • @A Hurting Dad…

      They must do more than just own it. They must also commit themselves to treating Mr. Nice the same way sexually as the bad boy, if and when they are lucky enough, to get a nice guy into a long term relationship or marry.

      I hope for the sake of the man they are unlucky. All its going to be is torment and misery for the damn guy. Just being real.

      Personally, I shall accept nothing less.

  21. So, basically, “Yes, some women are bad people, but it’s totally not their fail because Society!”

    Sorry, but people have responsibility. “Because I was told to” is not a valid excuse.

  22. What if the relationship between being an asshole and attracting members of the opposite sex is causal but in the opposite way? I mean, what if the case isn’t “Women love guys who are assholes”, but rather “Men who put up with women’s crap eventually become assholes (or women who put up with men’s crap become psycho bitches)”?

  23. Is the man in the photograph supposed to be a bad boy? You really need to do a better job. A tall, slender man with glasses, a bad t-shirt and a yo-yo looks more like somebody trying to do a really bad impersonation of a bad boy.

  24. Good article. Feminist authors usually approach the bad boy/nice guy topic from a moral angle. Thus, Nice Guys are immoral because the try to manipulate women. This article on the other hand looks at it from a gender angle. Thus, Nice Guys are not very good at performing masculinity and therefore less attractive to women. I think it’s good to set the moralizing aside for once and talk about the gender performance of nice guys and bad boys.

  25. Okay just so we are clear.

    There are fucked message going on here that tell women and men both that they need to act in what we generally regard as negative/damaging/destructive ways in order to be seen as a “real man/woman”.

  26. “The truth is we shouldn’t be asking why some women date bad guys. We should go to the root of the problem first.

    Why are men socialized to be assholes? And why does society applaud and encourage that behavior in men, while stifling more enriching and healthy traits like empathy and good communication?”

    Classic deflection, Negative thing women do? OOOO Let’s turn it around n blame the men! Why are the men socialized to be assholes? Newsflash, they’re not. Some men are raised to be assholes, others are raised to be nicer. Many men were raised to be gentlemen.

    This is why there are comments wondering when the writer is going to give women agency because deflecting like that treats women no better than children. I find it stupidly offensive. I have a better question. Why is it so popular to assign agency to men and treat them like adults who make choices yet for women so many authors write women as they are just children or do their best to talk their way out of answering the damn questions posed?

    The truth is WE SHOULD BE ASKING WHY SOME WOMEN DATE BAD BOYS. The truth is we shouldn’t be deflecting n treating women without agency, women make choices all the time, and quite frankly this babying of women is sickening.

    I await an article that actually does answer why some women like bad boys instead of the typical socialization issues. Could it possibly be, no way, can’t be…could it realllly beeeeee that some women like drama, excitement, spontaneous behaviour in their men? This article explains only part of why women go for bad boys whilst appearing to avoid giving women agency.

    Pro-tip for the author, an article on a men’s site which says women are told to go for bad boys and that we shouldn’t ask why some women want to date bad boys is going to be taken badly. People make choices, or would you like me to write an article about how we shouldn’t ask why rapists rape people but ask why rape victims are so damn tantalizing to predators? Rapists are told to rape! Or you know, we could ask what is it about rape victims that gets them targetted (answer involves vulnerability), why do they rape? What messages they get which influence their behaviour (which this article is talking about in regards to women liking bad boys).

    I suggest editing
    “Here’s why—we’re told to.” —– One reason why? Because we’re told to by society.

    “The truth is we shouldn’t be asking why some women date bad guys. We should go to the root of the problem first.” —-Asking why some women date bad guys is a great question, reasons include a, b, c, d. We also need to get to the root of the problem first which I believe includes e, f, g.

    “Why are men socialized to be assholes?” —- Why are some men socialized to be assholes?

    That way you can avoid deflection, women still get agency.

  27. “Here’s why—we’re told to.”
    I’m told to date young pretty women but I still have this thing called agency and make choices of who to date. I get the feeling this article is doing a very stereotypical thing some feminism does by talking agency away from women n putting the blame on society. Society does have some effect but women still choose to date assholes, nice guys, whatever. Admit that, I dare you, I dare the women here to admit some women enjoy being with assholes and don’t do it solely because they’re told to.

    What is this fetish in reducing women’s agency n treating them more like children than adults who make choices? Imagine a guy saying he dates big breasted women because society tells him to. Society may help mold our attraction but we still make the choice to date someone. I choose not to date assholes/bitches, if some choose to do so then just admit it. The huge problem is the conflicting advice people give of women wanting x, when women differ so much that some want a bit of x, bit of y, others want all x, others want all of y, it’s impossible to give universal dating advice.

    • @ Archy
      This is something I argued about in the comments of the Psycho Bitch articles. So many of the articles I read here intentionally strip women of the ability to make decisions (and this is coming from the pro fem authors!), and I find that insulting to women. The expectation that they are like children who can’t make rational decisions for themselves because of “society”.

      Like I said in the other article. If a woman is acting immature and out of control in an argument I’m not going to sit there and try to “understand the pain” behind her actions. I’m going to leave and find a women who can have disagreements like an mature, rational _adult_ person.

      It’s the same thing here. Adult women are _adults_. Stop blaming society for going after bad boys and the wrong men. You aren’t children. You have the ability to make your own decisions.

  28. Revo Luzione says:

    Without a discussion of evolutionarily-conserved mechanisms to preserve and enhance gene quality, this article and discussion will be lacking in the critical dimension: biology.

    Yes, women have agency, and that agency receives a big challenge every month: ovulation. A ton of studies show that women seek out high-T men at ovulation, and use a variety of cues to screen for high T men, from their voice, to their scent, to their behavior.

    Testosterone may not create “assholes” but it does drive, in a very real way, masculine behavior, including initiating romantic and sexual encounters, etc.

    So we can go on and on about teh patriarchy, hegemonic hypermasculinity (whatever that is) but until we begin to look at some of the biological, genetic, and hormonal factors that influence behavior, we’ll simply miss the forest for the (high-T) trees.

    • Hank Vandenburgh says:

      Agree.

    • @Revo…

      I guess I should take my 15 year old in an have his T checked?

    • wellokaythen says:

      Whoa, wait a minute. “Enhance gene quality”? Are we talking eugenics here? I’m having flashbacks to some horrible moments in the twentieth century….

      Anyway, if assholishness had significant survival and reproductive advantages over “nice-guy-ness,” I’d expect the wimpy, low-T nice guys to have gone extinct by this point, but in fact they seem to be pretty well “conserved” group. And, presumably, human males would over the course of the millenia have developed higher and higher testosterone rates. Any evidence that testosterone has increased over the past 500,000 years?

      Perhaps there are evolutionary payoffs for each kind?

      (Also ignoring for the moment the fact that testosterone’s effects happen in conjunction with a cocktail of other hormones and that the relationship between testosterone and behavior is actually complex, not jsut a direct higher T means more aggressive.)

      • Good point that the guys in love with evo psych theories never explain. Why are so callec beta males not extinct? Why are they in fact the majority, if they are so spectacularly unsuccessful for reasons ingrained in our DNA?

        • Bay Area Guy says:

          @ Sarah

          The explanation I’ve heard is that back in the old days, when men were unquestionably dominant, women’s sexuality and economic opportunities were kept in check. This meant that women had no choice but to marry beta males for reasons of being provided for financially and being secure.

          However, they have always remained hypergamous.

          Therefore, when women’s liberation came around, and women didn’t need men the way they used to, they flocked towards the alpha males.

          The plight of the beta male is in many ways a recent phenomenon.

          • So women for hundreds of thousands of years were forced into unwanted relationships? I don’t buy it. and if so, why did men evolve into beta males but women didn’t evolve as well? You are also basically saying that beta males represent a degeneration of the species towards an inferior type. I reject that idea. Why not start with the premises that if men have a natural spectrum of dominance or aggressive qualities or whatever, it’s because that had advantages for our species. And if it is advantageous then women will evolve to look for beta male qualities and not just alpha male qualities.

            Females do not exclusively mate with the alpha males even in harem type breeding species like elk. Females have been observed willingly mating with other males when the alpha males are fighting. The only reason for them to do so is because they instinctively know that those other males have some reproductive advantage. A male elk can’t force himself on an unwilling female. The alpha males in most species have to guard the females constantly or they will wander off and mate with less dominant males.

            It is so much more complicated than a simple alpha-male dichotomy.

            • Because alpha men are far more than genetics and there is randomness in the womb too, how much of each hormone a fetus has which influences brain development from what I know, and the mystery of genes where alpha male might need to be a particularly rare combination of genes + fetal development + socialization. The women would also introduce their own genes which would dilute the pool a bit, probably similar to a white woman with a black father for her child may rarely make a “passes for white” child (unsure of if it’s rare or not but just an example).

  29. The one thing I don’t agree with in this article is the labeling of “emotional, artsy and cultured” men as good guys. Has anyone ever dated a musician? They can be the biggest players around! In general though I tend to follow the Elizabeth Taylor school of thought when it comes to men and alternate between the bad boy and the nice guy. But nice guys can break your heart too and unlike bad boys you don’t see it coming. In my experience nice guys also tend to be better lovers. Because even though they may have fewer partners they are with them a longer period of time and really get to know what women like. Guy’s that have a bunch of one night stands or short lived flings don’t have that opportunity. And for women so much of good sex is mental and emotional as well as physical.

    • @Amy…

      “Has anyone ever dated a musician?”

      If you know they are players, why would you bother in the first place? You see this is what I don’t get about women. If a man knows a woman is whore, all he is going to do is fuck her, NOT date her. But women actually date these kinds of men or even marry them (think Jesse James/Sandra Bullock). What is it with this nonsense?

  30. Suppose a young boy is taught that Sweet Guy = good and Tough Guy = bad. Young boy, knowing nothing better, grows up to be a Sweet Guy just like he was told to and enters into the world at large. Problem is, the world at large seems to love few things more than to kick the shit out of Sweet Guys. Sweet Guy does exactly what he’s been told to do during his upbringing, and now the world is telling and showing him that he will never be respected or loved. Meanwhile, he sees Tough Guy, who does exactly the opposite of what Sweet Guy has been told is good and proper, and seems to get rewarded with respect and love for it. Sweet Guy did as he was taught as well as he could, and he gets nothing. Meanwhile, the apparently “evil” people get everything he ever desired.

    So now Sweet Guy’s in a triple bind. There’s him, the moral system he was brought up with, and the world, and this town ain’t big enough for the three of them.

    He can decide that it’s the world that’s crazy and evil. Tough Guy is evil for not following the rules that taught Sweet Guy to be Sweet Guy. Women are crazy and evil for giving respect and love to Tough Guy and not to Sweet Guy. And so forth. Sound familiar? You and I may not *like* this outcome, but is it not a possible natural progression?

    He can decide that the moral system and the world are right, or at least implacable, and it is him that is wrong, or at least inexorably doomed to be forever spit on and unloved. Maybe he drops out of society. Maybe he drops out of life itself.

    Or he can decide that the moral system is the problem. The whole Sweet Guy thing was a load of crap. He’ll learn to out-Tough-Guy the Tough Guy. And scruples? Where were his teachers’ scruples when they brainwashed him with such a crazy and ineffective moral system?

    In the end, what have we really gained?

    Does it have to play out in one of these ways? I hope not. But the fact is, these are the ways I’ve seen it play out. It’s especially true when the focus is on destructive (“thou shalt not”) rather than constructive teaching. The outcome of destructive teaching is people who are incapable of expressing wants, desires, and needs in a honest and healthy manner. Be careful that you are not harming exactly those people that trust you the most.

  31. Bay Area Guy says:

    I do wish that feminists would admit that many women go for assholes. I wish they would actually admit it, rather than going on elaborate explanations about how it’s not assholes per se that women like, but certain traits they embody, or how women are socialized to like them, etc, etc.

    Let me put it this way:

    Guys aren’t really attracted to young, hot 10s per se. It’s only certain qualities that these women possess are highly attractive to men! You plain Janes and homely looking women can learn to acquire them as well!

    Sounds equally absurd, doesn’t it?

    • Joanna Schroeder says:

      No, I don’t think it’s absurd in the least. When we talk about why some guys like “Trophy Wives” we often talk about what society has told men about having a “woman of value”. Also, society tells men what is hot and desirable, and we know that this influences what men want because of how different body types, skin colors, etc have varied so much throughout history. Even decade to decade in the USA you can see these changes. It’s not because men biologically change, it’s because of what society tells us is desirable.

      Also, this “assholes” thing is a part of youth, generally too. Most women will report having liked assholes when they were young, then growing into wanting kinder, nicer guys. I dated an asshole cheating “dangerous” DJ when I was 23. When I was 26 I met and fell in love with a “nice guy” because I wanted to be in love, not excitement. Turned out, he was exciting in a way that was healthy for me, and challenged me to be better.

      Most women I know who are happy say the same thing. It’s part of immaturity. You hear the same thing from guys about wanting “pscyho bitches from hell” (not my term). When they’re young they want these hot, impulsive, sexy firecrackers. Eventually they tire of that, grow up a bit, and marry someone who is kind, more even, etc. I certainly was passed over a LOT because I didn’t party, wasn’t an emotional basketcase (most of the time) and wasn’t a wild, sexy beast. I wore turtlenecks and sneakers out to bars, instead, so I got ignored a lot of the time.

      Looking back, Thank God I did because it was the sneaks and turtlenecks that caught my husband’s eye.

      We’re not all that different – men and women – but we exhibit many of the same traits in different ways.

      • @Joanna…

        “When they’re young they want these hot, impulsive, sexy firecrackers.”

        BS!!! How many men can get these women? Very few. The bad boys are the ONLY men who can have free reign with ALL women.

        I have a 15 year old son who is in Advance Placement in high school. He is good looking and pretty cool. Well groomed and dress well too. Guess who the teen girls go after? The filthy dirty jackasses with their pants half way their asses and all tattooed up in damn remedial classes and still failing. WTF Joanna! As a Dad, what I am suppose to tell my son? “Son this is just how f’ ed up women are…?” That would not be fair. But, what do I tell him?

        “We’re not all that different – men and women – but we exhibit many of the same traits in different ways.”

        WRONG!! We are very different. Men are driven largely by logic and reason. Women are driven by emotions with logic and reason kicking in later in life.

        • Joanna Schroeder says:

          I don’t know, Jules. Your son will get his day, I’m certain. Being in AP and having it together is what matters at this age, even if it sucks big time that the girls like the jerks. Ultimately, I don’t think he’d have a fulfilling relationship with those types of girls who would make those choices anyway. Not that it’s any consolation to him at this time, but they’d probably be drama-mongering and never appreciate him.

          I hope he meets a nice girl soon!

          On the other hand, I REALLY think this is incorrect and inappropriate: WRONG!! We are very different. Men are driven largely by logic and reason. Women are driven by emotions with logic and reason kicking in later in life.

          That’s a huge generalization. Young men ruled by reason and logic compared to girls? I think young men and women are both equally as impulsive and ridiculous (in general) but probably in different ways. In my town, young guys stand up in the back of pick up trucks and drive 55 miles an hour. Adults don’t do that.

          And I know tons of girls that liked girls who caused drama drama drama when they were young, then chose a different girl as they got older and had happy lives. I really do, as I said above, think these are parallels between the sexes. I know tons of nice girls who got looked over because they weren’t flashy or sexy or partiers.

          • “I know tons of nice girls who got looked over because they weren’t flashy or sexy or partiers.”
            In highschool I’ve known some women that did this, they didn’t wear makeup, they dressed frumpy, basically they dressed about as unsexy as you can get. These women just didn’t see to throw out any sexual signals, did barely any flirting, they appeared to be asexual and I think that is why they get overlooked. I think the same thing happens with guys that aren’t very confident, sexual attraction needs to be triggered and it’s not easy to trigger when someone appears to be purposely dressing down, badly dressed, hiding body features that most other women show.

            The women I knew like that also tended to be very shy, quiet, didn’t make themselves noticed so they blended into the background. Some were the certain type of religious where they were very prude? (basically zero sexuality displayed), that was a turnoff. They felt more like asexual sisters. After highschool I saw quite a few of them though and then seeing them at the clubs after their sexuality magically appears and some of them were damn fine, not just because of how they dressed but how they acted, their confidence had increased and they didn’t sound like little girls afraid of shadows with their voice but women who spoke with more confidence.

            I still know some adults that do this and they are probably seen as invisible. Wearing clothing way too big for your size or hiding evvverrything to the point you are different than others can turn some people off. Slouching, not grooming yourself, etc also do that. Some of the women who are “nice” they’re usually also very quiet n shy, they’re sweet women but I dunno how to say it decently but it was as if they were tooooooo nice, toooo sweet, and for me I felt like they’d never be able to get along with me because I can be an asshole at times and they feel so fragile. I am not a purely good person, I am pretty rough around the edges (I laugh at some pretty dark humor) so I feel like they’re a different level to me and that I’d be too offensive or rough for them. The other issue is backbone, some just don’t stand up for themselves, they get walked over a lot and that may play a role in attraction. To some it might be attractive for the wrong reasons (easy to manipulate), for me I am attracted more to people to stand up for themselves.

            Of course physical attractiveness also plays a large part. But to be sexy to someone, often you need to send out sexual body language. Some of the single women I’ve known are so shy they barely respond when you talk to them, they don’t often make conversation so the guy has to carry the conversation a lot and it’s like chatting up a brick wall at times. I’ve lost interest in women before because of this shyness, it becomes very boring having to direct the conversation 95% of the time. This is something that happens to both genders though, I myself have had trouble in the past keeping a conversation going being so damn shy in my earlier years, and it’s no wonder I had little success with women!

            So am I right or am I way off mark with my theories?

            • Everything you said also explains a lot about why girls overlook shy guys. Shy/introverted people have disadvantages socially, I know this as a woman whi struggled with shyness. Boys didn’t see me as sexy or fun or interesting. And frankly they were right. I was a complete zero in apoearance and personality as a teenager. I don’t blame others for ignoring me, when I look back on it.

              • Yeah I experience similar, I’m shy and don’t make my interest known enough. I later found out I had someone who had a crush on me but didn’t tell me, and I’m sure I’ve missed other opportunities too.

    • See the responses to admitting to enjoying a bad boy for certain functions up thread there? That is why women do not admit to liking the bad boy. They get ridiculed for not allowing the “nice guy” into their life.

      • Kat, I for one appreciate your honesty. No, I think the negetive reaction (by the males at least) is to the way they are percieved as ‘evil, emotionally abusive, womanizing, etc’ if they enter into a ‘one night stand’ and the woman changes her mind and suddenly wants something more. Also, what’s being red into this (again, mostly by the males) is that ,if you’re a ‘nice guy’, just be patient, wait and when she’s done having her fun with the ‘bad boys’ she’ll be ready to marry you and you can do what’s expected of you. Provide stability and security. Face it, no guy wants to think of himself as ‘sloppy seconds!

        • @bobbt…

          “Face it, no guy wants to think of himself as ‘sloppy seconds!”

          Thanks you!!!!! You have to be happy with being a second class citizen.

          After the woman has been banged out, used and abused by the bad boys, “now you can have me!” Or at least what’s left of her.

          NO THANK YOU.

          • After the woman has been banged out, used and abused by the bad boys, “now you can have me!” Or at least what’s left of her.(Jules)

            I think youre missing out on something here Jules. There is actually much more to these women after they have had some of these experiences. Rather than being “used up” as you seem to imply, they are usually pretty, damn, fantastic lovers because of it. Try some, you might find you actually like them, alot. 😉

            • @John T.

              I WILL PASS THANK YOU. I DO HAVE LEVELS OF DECENCY AND CONDUCT THAT I WILL NOT GO BELOW.

              IF I WANTED TO BE WITH A FANTASTIC LOVER, THEN I SHOULD FIND MYSELF A CALL GIRL I SUPPOSE. I AM SURE THEY ARE VERY EXPERIENCED TOO.

              NO THANKS, BRO.

      • @Kat…

        And you don’t feel they should be ridiculed? If you would stick to these these bad boys, that would be great! But, after a while (or your fill of them) you invariably seek out the nice guy for a long term relationship or marriage. Does he (nice guy) enjoy the sexual privilege of the bad boy? HELL NO! Sex now becomes “emotional.” He (nice guy) must earn it. All this emotional connection BS now is thrown up in his face…..This is what thoroughly incense me.

        Just imagine if the US told Israel, “You guys sit over there and shut up!. Hamas, Hezbollah and us are going to have a party. You’re not invited. When we’re done, we will let you know”

        So, the good guy = Israel get the shaft

        While the bad boy = Hamas & Hezbollah get the Glory.

        Now, do you think that is fair? This is EXACTLY what many women are doing, daily.

        • Exactly Jules! It’s like hearing from a woman “my last relationship was purely sexual and didn’t really mean anything, but with you I feel connected emotionally.” Of course in her last relationship she was banging the guy’s brains out six times a week. Her new guy she’s emotionally connected to not only has to deal with the down parts of the relationship (being a partner and shoulder to cry on when necessary), but also is probably only having sex once or twice a month.

          The good guy loses again.

          • @jimbo…

            Yes, and that is why I want no part whatsoever of this emotional connectedness shit with women. I am not bashful in telling women I am not interested in any kind of “relationship.” I put it out front. They then will try to ask me why not. I simply tell them I do not wish to discuss it. And I don’t.

            I lost 12 damn good years of my life dealing with that shit. The only thing I have to show for it is my son. Otherwise it was torment and misery. But good ole bad boy gets a free fucking pass. All he needs to do is show up with his c*ck in hand…..

            Never again!

  32. Bay Area Guy says:

    I love how the author claims to be throwing the guys a bone by admitting that “yes, some women like assholes, I admit it. You happy now?!”

    But then goes on to blame the patriarchy for brainwashing men to act like jerks and women to fall for them.

    I think Sarah’s explanation is more accurate. Many women like the feelings of excitement and adventure.

    I interpret that to mean that many women, like the asshole men they flock to, are just as immature and emotionally/morally stunted.

  33. All right I was harsh with the last comment.

    However, my point still stands: why is it hard to admit that women have agency?

    • Joanna Schroeder says:

      Examining the cultural history behind a society trend is not the same as removing agency. Humans are social creates by nature, not all, but most, and because of that, the mores and value that are passed down and taught are HUGELY influential. One of the only ways to break a behavior pattern (societal or individual) is to look at the history, the messages we’ve been sent, the reasons why, and then make a plan for change.

      It isn’t the same as taking away agency. Taking away agency would be saying, “It’s because we’re told to do so, therefore YOU (others) need to stop doing it, so we can change”. But that’s not happening here. We’re recognizing what we’ve been taught, what’s expected of us, and we’re talking about what WE can do as individuals and as a group in order to make change.

      It’s far from removing agency. Just remember that humans have always been social creatures, with culture and tradition, as long as humans have been documented.

      • Taking away agency would be saying, “It’s because we’re told to do so, therefore YOU (others) need to stop doing it, so we can change”. But that’s not happening here.

        Actually, that is exactly what is happening here. The article literally states that women choose the bad guy solely because they are told to and that it is men who need to stop being bad guys in order to fix the problem. That completely takes away women’s agency, and while that is typical in feminist discussions about this issue, it is also wildly ironic.

        • wellokaythen says:

          It’s not just the individual woman’s agency that’s getting left out here, but also the fact that women shape their own culture’s gender expectations. Even in a strongly patriarchal system, women still have some influence over the construction of gender roles. Okay, maybe less power than men have, but gender roles are not simply selected by men and men only and then imposed from the top down. Certainly gender roles are transmitted and perpetuated by women, as well as challenged, redefined, and sometimes shattered by women.

          Clearly socialization is not an omnipotent force, because there are always people who challenge their upbringing. There are literally millions of women across the world who are currently rejecting their upbringing and declaring that they no longer subscribe to traditional value X. Socialization fails often enough that there must be something else going on as well. People don’t simply automatically reproduce what they’ve been taught.

      • Joannna,

        While your logic is sound, there is much more going on here with women.

        Just because there was 100 years of Jim Crow segregation in the Deep South does NOT mean you PRETEND Jim Crow still exist.

        The author is trying to blame others for individual conduct – “we’re told to..” Women were also told to shut up, be barefoot, and pregnant…..I don’t see many women following those edicts!

        WOMEN GO AFTER THESE MEN BECAUSE THEY WANT TO. IT IS THEIR OWN FREE WILL. So, stop blaming history.

        The central theme, in my opinion, of the feminist movement is respect for women and the dignity of women as human beings. Today, I see women treating one group of men in undignified manners. Reserving them for making babies, providing financial security, and no even bothering to consider the emotions and feelings of such men. Sex, oh forget it. That is reserved for the degenerate bad boy who have harems anyway. So it goes.

        This incessant pinning for bad boys has zippy to do with history. How about women taking ownership for their conduct? If these men are the men women want to screw. FINE!!!! Just be woman enough to say so. That’s all I ask. Woman up!!!

        We have women pursing or possessing graduate degrees acting like 9th grade dropouts living in trailer parks. How can that be?

        • Joanna Schroeder says:

          Yeah, I respectfully think you and I just disagree about how history plays a role in our present day lives, as well as socialization.

          I agree, we need to woman up, for sure!! And many women grow out of this phase. But I do think slavery still affects the way the way people live and treat others in this nation, and I believe that sexist tropes against both men and women still hurt both sexes.

          I get what you’re saying, though, and it makes sense. I think I just disagree on that fundamental. I always respect your heart and intentions, though, Jules, and am interested in what you’re going to say on a subject! So thanks for that!

          • Women don’t “grow out” of the phase they “age out” because they are now too old for the guys they really want to date (bad boys). The bad boys continually chase girls from the same age range (let’s say 18-25). With new 18-25 year old entering the dating pool every day the now 26 year old can’t get the attention of the bad boys she desperately want to date.

  34. Op: “So why do some women go for a**holes?

    Here’s why—we’re told to.”

    And I stopped reading right there.

    Am I insane in thinking that women should take responisbility for their actions and say to themselves “I did this.” instead of always blaming society?

    To the women who like “Assholes”, you leave a lot of decent men in the lurch. Yes, YOU do it. Society doesn’t put a gun to your head and force a decision. Otherwise, if you’re going to keep thinking of yourselves as perpetual victims without agency then why should anyone take your wishes of equal respect seriously?

    Sorry for the harshness but this whole (Insert feminist theory here) deflection of women’s agency is getting beyond the pale.

    And I agree with Kat. You lament the lack of decent men out there? Think really hard why that is.

    • Joanna Schroeder says:

      Maybe you should’ve read the whole thing.

      • I cannot argue with Joanna’s reply.

        • It isn’t hard: if you want to people to listen, say things in a way that will allow them to hear you.

          When formatting a book for publishing, you do a number of things to make it less likely that a reader will simply stop reading. You eliminate widows (a single line of text at the top of a page) and orphans (one or two words on the last line of a paragraph) because people feel a natural urge to stop when they reach one of these points. Why do they do that? Nobody really knows. But they do.

          Political writing is no different. When you want to make an argument and present it to those who will disagree with you, it is incumbent on you to think of any rhetoric that might cause them to stop reading altogether. If you want them to read on, then you don’t use it. This writer clearly didn’t do that. She wrote this piece as if everyone here was likely to agree with her, even though it should be obvious that they aren’t. Nobody gets to play ‘gotcha!’ when readers do exactly what should have been expected of them.

          You can try to score points, or you can try to get your point across. In political writing you can’t really do both. Don’t expect your audience to adapt to you.

      • So why do some women go for a**holes?

        Here’s why—we’re told to.

        That seems unlikely, and robs women of their agency. Or more accurately robs them of their responsibility for making poor choices and ignoring the type of men feminists claim women prefer.

        The truth is we shouldn’t be asking why some women date bad guys. We should go to the root of the problem first. Why are men socialized to be assholes?

        How unsurprising that the root of the problem is men. Granted, the feminist logic applied here does not parse anyway. Firstly, this–“the problem, really, starts with the fact that what’s considered “masculine” in our culture is dominance, aggression, prowess, competition, abuse, restriction, argumentativeness, control, and violence”– is a strawman. While our culture certainly associates those characteristics with masculinity, the masculine norm pushed by our culture is assertiveness, competence, capability, competition, command, and stoicism. Those qualities can, like all human behavior, be twisted into something negative, but they are not negative in of themselves.

        Secondly, even if the strawman were true, that would not explain why women choose the type of men they apparently have no real interest in when the men they are interested in ask them on dates. One could argue that those men do not fit the norm, yet if women prefer the abnormal male, why would they continuously reject them?

        As for the rest of the article, I am just curious where feminists get this caricature of men from. Even the most abusive men I know have far better character than the mindless orcs described in the most recent articles about masculinity on this site.

        • The saving grace of this article is this bit here:

          But we stifle those behaviors early on, the very first time that we utter to them that “boys don’t cry,” and punish our sweet guys by telling them to “man up,” implying that they’re less of a man when they emote or show an interest in humanities.

          Thus, the message that we’re getting across (to men and women alike!) is that only domineering men are “real” men – the ones that you want to be or be with.

          I emphasized those because it at least shows that they are copping to actively taking part in that socialization of boys. A hell of a lot better than most feminists that seem to think that boys get those attitudes from thin air and/or other boys/men and that women/girls have absolutely no part to play in the dynamic (or at the very least will avoid actually implicating girls/women).

        • @Jacobtk…

          Men are not socialized to be assholes. Nor are women socialized to be whores.

          There are all kinds of men on this planet: jerks, introverted, extroverted, successful, unsuccessful, pricks, assholes, criminals, degenerates, bums, lazy, thugs, druggies, you name it. None of these men are socialized to be this way. They freely choose to be such.

          And women freely choose to associate with these men.

          • Joanna Schroeder says:

            So you think there is no socialization, at all?

            • If anything I’d say men are socialized to be gentlemen and stoic, at least where I live. Women socialized to be ladies and more empathic. Pretty much everyone I know hates assholes, so I am curious how men are raised to be assholes by a society which hates assholes?

              • PastorofMuppets says:

                Don’t kid yourself.
                Society loves and is fascinated by assholes, particularly those of the handsome and/or charming and/or wealthy variety.

            • @Joanna

              Do you think its possible some of your feminist views create a socialization of its own that isnt necessarily beneficial in your relationships with men?

            • @Joanna…

              Only minor socialization play a role in human outcomes. My Dad grew up under Jim Crow in the Deep South. He served his country in the Marines and Vietnam. He did not become a thug, bad boy, or degenerate even though his socialization was terrible.

              I don’t buy into the socialization bit. Yes, it has an impact, though it is minor in my view.

              I am willing to buy into the socialization bit for under-educated people or the uneducated. A person need not go to college to become educated. But, here on the GMP many of the women are well educated and can be and do anything they desire, regardless of socialization.

              Btw, no one tells women: “we’re told to.”

            • So you think there is no socialization, at all?

              This is not a zero-sum game. Socialization is more nuanced than anything described in the article. If it worked as feminists assume it did, then people lack any ability to choose to do anything. That clearly is not the case. Scores of people behave contrary to the ways they were raised, be it for good or ill. It seems that some people are unwilling to accept that some women make bad choices, and instead point the finger at men and society, as if women did not belong to the latter group.

  35. I’m with the ass hole for one nights stands because his feelings are not involved and I’m not going to hurt him when the night is over simply speaking. There won’t be more phone calls. He’ll move on to another woman just like that and our encounter will simply be a memory. And I’m cool with that in the one night stand world.

    And I agree with Sarah. It’s probably really not anymore complicated than some women just like the excitement. There are plenty of men who date the more charismatic women for the excitement as well. Some people just aren’t into the quiet types. If one is going to complain about the quality of the men they are attracting though they need to sit down and examine what is really going on.

    • @Kat,

      You see Kat this is part of the problem. The asshole is PREFERRED for sex.

      The same shit carries over into marriage. Women want to marry Mr. Nice Guy so he can give her security, be around for family, and any other damn things she deems necessary.

      BUT, WHEN IT IT COMES SEX WITH THEIR HUSBANDS, THESE SAME WOMEN COULD CARE LESS. THEY STILL WANT THE “EXCITEMENT” OF THE ASSHOLE. THERE HUSBANDS ARE THOUGHT OF AS UNDESERVING OF THE SEX THEY GAVE MR. BAD ASS WHO ALREADY HAS A DAMN HAREM.

      Question: Why don’t women marry the asshole? It would certainly eliminate a lot of anguish and torment from the lives of a lot of decent and good human beings.

      This is why so many men today are just done with women, period. Many would rather use sex workers than be subject to this kind of humiliation.

      • I’m a Muslim woman, and thank God, we don’t have most of these problems, (though we do have other problems). That said, it seems to me that premarital sex is a contributing factor to the things you’re so understandably angry about. If sex were reserved for marriage, wouldn’t the nice, stable guys do a great deal better than these “bad guys?” Women would think twice before yoking themselves to a “bad guy” till death or divorce just because he’s exciting.

        • I’m not Muslim, but I kind of agree with you. Sexual liberation has a negative side, and viewing other people as mere playthings is one of those negatives at times.

        • @Sara….

          It is not so much about premarital sex, per se. We all know it exist in the Muslim world too.

          It is this downright twisted logic women in America use to determine what men get sex and which ones do not. This is why so many men are using sex workers or just plain opting out and becoming celibate.

          Then the chorus from the women of “where are all the good men?” You drove them away with your twisted logic.

          • Premarital sex definitely DOES exist in the Muslim world, and is becoming more and more common in the Western world’s Muslim communities, but it’s still nothing like as common as it is in the Western world, and I can assure you that Muslim women consider a lot more than, “Is he an exciting bad boy?” before choosing a mate.

          • Bay Area Guy says:

            Then the chorus from the women of “where are all the good men?” You drove them away with your twisted logic.

            From now on, whenever I hear a woman in her 30s or 40s cry “where have all the good men gone?!” I’m going to ask her a few questions:

            What was your attitude regarding men and dating back when you were in your 20s? Did you look for nice, thoughtful guys? Or were you into bad boys and excitement?

            I think Jimbo once described the “bad boys” phenomenon perfectly. While some women who like bad boys when they’re younger do snap out of it, many don’t. What happens, however, is that once women reach their late 20s/early 30s, they begin to realize that they are past their physical and sexual prime, and the bad boys they love so much don’t want them anymore, but instead want younger women. Therefore, they’ll marry a nice guy for marriage and stability, but since they’re still attracted to bad boys, they’ll find the nice guy boring, and it will end up being a dull marriage.

          • wellokaythen says:

            It’s a little easier for men to keep sex within marriage in a culture in which men have the option of having multiple wives. In Iran there are brothels in which the customer marries the prostitute first, then has sex with her, and then has the marriage dissolved before he leaves. Presto, no sex outside of marriage, traditional values intact.

            Anyway, the amount of premarital sex may not be the main difference between the US and other parts of the world. An even bigger difference is the set of romantic expectations that Americans put on marriage. In many parts of the world, there is not the expectation that your spouse will be your one and only “soulmate” and complete you as a human being and you ride off into the sunset together and keep the flames of passion alive for decades or else you’re marriage has failed. Americans generally expect to marry only people they fall in love with. That sets up a pretty high bar and almost inevitable disillusionment. I think in many other cultures their marriages last longer in part because they expect less out of their marriages.

            • I’d much rather be one of multiple wives than one of multiple girlfriends, multiple wives have rights multiple girlfriends don’t have, (although I would, of course most like to be the one and only woman my husband’s ever even TOUCHED, lol). As for the brothels you mention, that’s a shia thing, and most of us aren’t shia, (and I’m not even sure the average shia frequents such places, though I must admit to knowing only a handful).

              You make an interesting point about expectations, and I think you’re right. While we HOPE for those wonderful sunsets and eternal happiness, our expectations of marriage have a lot more to do with duty, children, and stability. And so a successful marriage is one which provides a stable home for children, and in which each spouse recognizes and fulfills the rights of the other. Love is extra.

              • @Sara…

                “I’d much rather be one of multiple wives than one of multiple girlfriends, multiple wives have rights multiple girlfriends don’t have,”

                I see the logic and reasoning. I was always a monogamous person. I was in a sexless marriage for over a decade (once a month, after her period, same position, morning only). I divorced over it because I became tormented and miserable.

                So, today I have sex with two women. Not because I really want too. But, I vowed after my divorce never to put my sexual happiness in the hands of one woman. Ideally, I would love to have a high libido steady partner for great and frequent sex. But, I have given up on that ideal and focused on reality.

                We just legalized gay marriage here in Maryland where I reside. While a social and political conservative, I voted for the measure.

                I really believe polygamous marriage should also be legal in the US. It is the right thing to do.

    • @Kat,

      “I’m with the ass hole for one nights stands because his feelings are not involved and I’m not going to hurt him when the night is over simply speaking.”

      OK. But why will you not extend the same courtesy/privileged to a nice guy. His feeling might not be hurt. He might not call. He might be so elated that he even got laid. He was treated like a human being instead of some toddler that needs extra care.

      Just where do you women get off thinking you have the power of God to determine this kind of shit? But, when you want a long term relationship or marriage, you come knocking on Mr. Nice Guys door. I think it is disgusting behavior. Then to add insult, most of you will barely even have sex with your husbands.

      All I can say is I will never go for this pack of lies ever again. Just as you want the guy for a lay, that’s all I want from women. A great fuck. And that’s all she is going to get.

      • A stereotypical nice guy is not prone to using another human being for sex and just leaving it at that. When I’m having casual sex/one night stands I have no desire to get to know the person as a person. I don’t particularly want to know their history or their feelings. I just want to get laid and either go back to my place or have him go back to his when it’s all said and done with no hard feelings. The stereotypical bad boy has absolutely no issues with this arrangement. He won’t call me afterwards. If we see each other out I probably won’t be forced into an awkward conversation.

        Just like men typically have standards for who they want to sleep with or utilize for different parts of their life women do to.

        If a nice guy was willing to leave it just as a physical event for one night and I didn’t have to spend a bunch of time dragging him out of his shell because frankly I don’t have time when I’m looking for casual sex then sure I’d go for the nice guy but I’d really question how nice of a guy he actual was or if he was just trying to convince people he was nice.

        • @Kat,

          Well I guess your standards for sex are pretty low. Since you “don’t have the time” to drag him out of his shell.

          “…….but I’d really question how nice of a guy he actual was or if he was just trying to convince people he was nice.”

          But what damn difference does it make Kat?! You’re already screwing a bad guy! So, if he is not that nice of a guy, then just what is your point? I guess if he is pretending to be nice as opposed to being really a bad guy, then you prefer the “real” bad guy.

          God, I will never understand the twisted logic of women’s thinking about sex. Nor do I ever want to understand it.

          Have good day.

          • “But what damn difference does it make Kat?! You’re already screwing a bad guy! So, if he is not that nice of a guy, then just what is your point? I guess if he is pretending to be nice as opposed to being really a bad guy, then you prefer the “real” bad guy.”

            This. So much this.

            Given that many nice guys (sarcastic quote marks/trademarks or not) have likely internalised a lot of messages about how just wanting sex is bad – I really don’t see the logic in damning them for wanting sex – when so often women are sleeping with guys who…erm….just want sex.

    • I’m with the ass hole for one nights stands because his feelings are not involved and I’m not going to hurt him when the night is over simply speaking. 

      That’s cool if it works for you. You make a decision and you own it. But what many men complain about is inconsistency, that is a woman has sex with a “bad boy” and then laments that he never calls her. I agree with @Sarah as well that the allure of “bad boys” or “bad girls” is not a gendered phenomenon. The difference is men get very little sympathy when they get burned by a “bad girl”. For men there is no shoulder to cry on and nobody who tells you “it’s not your fault”. So ultimately this is about accountability.

  36. Hank Vandenburgh says:

    I think it’s actually biological. If you’re a man, the trick is to balance the two aspects so that you’re both sexy and livable. I admit that it’s a dichotomy. But the point is to get to the middle. And you can kick it up. I had a job that was super-abusive once, and I used to pump iron before I went to work so that I could scare the a-men if I needed to. You can get to the other side by cathecting your child nature.

  37. I think the reason that some women like assholes is pretty simple, actually. Being with an asshole can be Exciting. Dangerous. Fun. Adventurous. Pick your stimulating adjective. Women like assholes for the same reason that men will chase after a beautiful woman no matter how crazy or annoying she is. Also, nobody likes to admit it, but niceness can be boring, in both genders. Do you prefer broccoli or chocolate?

    The question for a nice guy is how can he make himself more attractive to women without betraying his fundamental nature. I actually don’t believe most women like assholes per se, but assholes have qualities that women like. Assholes aren’t intimidated by women. They aren’t tentative. They are not afraid of their own sexuality. Nice guys can have those qualities too.

    • @Sarah…

      “Being with an asshole can be Exciting. Dangerous. Fun. Adventurous. Pick your stimulating adjective.”

      So can criminals. So, does that mean women like criminals too.

      Btw, I am a nice man who is not intimidated by anyone, who is not tentative, and unafraid of my sexuality, intelligent, and successful in my profession. Many nice men besides me have those qualities. The ONLY time you women come crawling to us is for marriage. Why? Because MR. Bad Boy is not marriage material. He is only sex material.

      Women like these “other” men because in the inner recess of their minds, they think these men make better lovers. Probably they are correct as women like to have sex with them over nice men. So, they are more experienced, thanks to women.

      Finally, if a woman is a piece of sh**t, most men will NOT chase after her just because she is beautiful. He might pay $500 an hour for an hour or two of her time. Otherwise, that’s it. This is what separate men from women. Only women go after and have sex with men they know are a**holes.

      That all fine and dandy by me. Just leave the nice men alone when it comes to marriage. Go marry the men you like to fuck, please.

      • I disagree Jules, I’ve seen men make complete fools of themselves over beautiful women who were horrible people. Men will make endless excuses for a woman’s behavior if she is gorgeous.

        Men and women can be equally dumb in relationships.

        Would you like to go to Disneyland and only ride the teacups? Or do you wait 2 hours in line for the roller coaster?

        Don’t underestimate the intoxicating power of adrenaline.

        • @Sarah…

          “Men will make endless excuses for a woman’s behavior if she is gorgeous.”

          You gotta be kidding me! Ask Kim K., Sandra Bullock, Demi Moore, or Seal’s ex (cannot think of her name). Few men I know of are making any excuses for their behavior.

          Never been to Disneyland. So, I don’t get the point.

          As for adrenaline, men (bad and nice) have it. So, what is your point? Or are you so focus on the oxytocin, adrenaline, and dopamine that bad boys apparently stir up in women? Not trying to be wise ass, just unclear about your point.

          • @jules

            Sarah is bang on with her assessment. There are just as many men dancing that dance as there are women.

            • @John T.

              “There are just as many men dancing that dance as there are women.”

              I don’t believe it. If it were true, then why are their so many hookers, escorts, call girls, prostitutes etc for men? Why are so many men into porn?

              Because most men cannot engage in this kind of behavior at will. Only a few men reside in the bad boy lands. Usually, they are sexing multiple women. I challenge you to prove me wrong!

              Most men find most women sexually attractive. With women, most find only a few men sexually attractive (at least in the USA). This is well documented. See Lisa Diamond’s “Sexual Fluidity….”

              Hence, I beg to differ.

          • jules, my point is that if a woman is dating an @sshole, or a bad boy, or whatever you want to call him, she’s doing it because it feels good on a primal level. If at the same time she rejects the steady, sweet nice guy, it’s because being with him doesn’t give her the same feelings. It’s no different than how a man feels when he’s in the presence of a highly attractive young woman vs. a woman who is less attractive, older or not in shape or whatever. He may think the less attractive woman would make a better girlfriend or wife (she’s kind, she’s sweet, she’s low drama, she’d be a great mother) but he doesn’t get the same rush of excitement when he’s with her. Sexual feelings don’t respond to logic. As people become more mature, their priorities often change and they become less superficial, generally speaking. But some people never grow up.

            • @Sarah…

              If you say so…

            • Bay Area Guy says:

              But Sarah, there’s an important distinction that’s being lost here.

              You are right when you say that men will put up with or excuse horrible women simply because they’re physically attractive. The difference, however, is that men are attracted to their LOOKS. They are not attracted to those women on account of their bitchy qualities in the same way that women are attracted to bad boy traits.

              • How is it different? In both cases, you are overlooking negative qualities because you are focused on sexual attraction.

                • Bay Area Guy says:

                  The difference is that men are drawn to looks and as a result of being physically attracted to a woman, will put up with her bad personality.

                  Women, on the other hand, are attracted to many guys precisely because, and not in spite of, their bad personalities.

                  Big difference.

                  • I think they are drawn to qualities they think are positive and they are in denial about the negatives. I remember dating a musician when I was in my 20’s who I though was very confident, introspective and emotionally deep. It took me a couple months to realize that the confidence was narcissism, the introspection was a hipster affectation, and the emotional depth was just plain old depression. A woman may like a guy for being strong and in charge and overlook the downsides like selfishness or meanness. Most women don’t want to be miserable. I suppose some do, maybe as a result if childhood abuse or low self esteem. But most are looking for happiness and good feelings and they get that from the asshole guy, at least jnitially.

        • Mr Supertypo says:

          “I disagree Jules, I’ve seen men make complete fools of themselves over beautiful women who were horrible people. Men will make endless excuses for a woman’s behavior if she is gorgeous.

          Men and women can be equally dumb in relationships.”

          I agree Sarah, good point. I work as a DJ, and you cannot believe how stupid boys and girls can be *rolleyes* and sometimes they get hurt (fistfights). I see this scenery almost every weekend.

    • Arthur MacMaster says:

      “Do you prefer broccoli or chocolate?”
      Your analogy is an appropriate one but I think for a different reason than you intended.
      Chocolate is nice as a treat but you can’t survive on it. A diet of Chocolate will also rot your teeth, make you fat, potentially give you diabetes and stunt your health; whereas broccoli is nutrient-rich, will lower your cholesterol, and is high in fiber and is overall a healthy food.
      A**holes may be nice as a treat, but you have to realize that they will rot your “soul” and when you are looking to settle and build a life, your ability to have a healthy relationship may be stunted.

      I may be stretching the analogy a bit.

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