Nikki Brown calls for men to resist an easy acceptance of rape culture and to speak out in defense of their gender.
Don’t take offense. I know a lot of men stand up about rape. I know they speak up about sexual assault. They wear ribbons and high heels to show their support for anti-violence campaigns. I know many of you take issue with what rape culture tells me, your sister, your wife, your mother, your daughters, your friend what they should wear and how they should act. I know many of you support our right to sluthood (thank you very much).
I appreciate all of that. What I mean here is, why aren’t you speaking out against what this language, this rape culture, says about you? About men?
Men Can’t Help Themselves. Wear the wrong clothes or say the wrong thing, and Men believe they are Entitled to a woman’s sex.
Men Rape.
Rape culture says that we should expect men to be violent, misogynistic, and to not even notice, let alone care, what a woman wants, as long as she did something to make him think she wants to have sex. No, scratch that. As long as she did something to make him think about sex.
Why aren’t you angry? Why aren’t you upset? Why aren’t you telling your sister and your wife and your mother and your daughters and your friends that it doesn’t matter what they wear or how they act or if they flirted?
It doesn’t matter.
That there is nothing women can’t do or say or wear. That there’s no such thing as too much alcohol or took him home too soon. No excuse, no lie, no rationale that makes rape or attempted rape or assault or harassment OK. To make rape or attempted rape or assault or harassment Something Men Do.
When are you going to make clear, I mean really effing crystal, to us that THIS IS NOT HOW MEN BEHAVE.
This is not who you are, this is not how you think. This is not what we should prepare for. This is not what we should expect from you.
♦◊♦
Am I wrong here? Is this view and these expectations not a problem to you?
I don’t have that view. I don’t share those expectations. Instead, I expect: I expect men to appreciate me for who I am, from my cleavage to my wit. I expect men to never think they are entitled to my body, no matter what I wear or how I act or how soon I went home with them. To believe sex is a mutually-agreed upon act (enthusiastic consent is not a feminist statement, people!) that we participate in together, not something men take from me. I expect men to treat me as a member of an equal, not a lesser sex. I expect men to treat me as I treat them.
But here’s the thing: my expectations are in spite of the “that’s just how guys are” and the Facebook rape pages and the “can’t you women take a joke?” bullshit I hear every single day. They are in spite of every person who reads this post and thinks, “yeah, that’s nice and all Nikki, but in reality …” or “girl, you had better learn to play it safe.”
My expectations are in spite of rape culture.
These expectations are also of my own accord, my own faith in men—and because of the men in my life.
The sad thing? They are not because men speak up and tell me society and rape culture is wrong. They are not because, every time I hear “that’s how men are,” a good man speaks up and says, “no. It’s not.”
They are the ones I make for you in your silence.
♦◊♦
I understand that maybe the things rape culture says about men are subtle. I get what being vocal about sexual violence does to women, but we don’t talk enough about what rape culture says about men. Even in recent posts here on the Good Men Project—discussions revolved around education, support, and defense of women. They never once focused, even for a moment, on what all of these terrible stories say about men. About who men are, and who they are not. There is this underlying assumption that men just rape. There is this underlying acceptance about it.
And, yes, I fully comprehend the cultural differences here. But still.
Rape is not just about women. It’s about men, too. And we will never end this Rape Culture, we will never make revolutionary change, unless we start talking about men’s agency in it.
And that, gentlemen, starts with you. Your voice. Not only in support of SlutWalk, but in explaining to us that This Is Not What Men Do. This is not the behavior to expect from men. We need to hear you tell us that. You need to tell each other that. This is as important a conversation as any other we have about rape and sexual assault.
♦◊♦
Maybe you aren’t paying attention, or you think you’re the only one who is, or that we won’t hear you. Maybe you’ve never thought about it this way.
But it’s not enough. None of that is enough to excuse your silence. Your ignorance. Your acceptance of the excuses we all use and the lies we all tell to ignore rape and assault Every. Single. Day.
The underlying acceptance that Men Rape.
Consider this the open door. Consider this my invitation to the table and my request to hear your voice. Consider this your wake up call that rape culture isn’t talking only about women.
This is what rape culture and the excuses and lies we all tell ourselves about rape and sexual assault say about men.
Wake up. Speak up. I can’t hear you.
Yet.
—Photo terminallychll/Flickr
About Nikki Brown
Something that has always troubled me about this idea of “rape culture” is the fact that if it exists then mothers are as much to blame for forgetting to teach their son’s to NOT rape. Im so glad my mom didnt miss THAT lesson.
Well, this really is my point. The idea that boys have to have their mothers tell them not to rape women – when I would assume boys, and the men they grow up to be, already know that. I assume they don’t need to be told – by anyone.
By that argument children shouldn’t need to be told to hit or call names. Parents do socialise their children, if they didn’t they’d be bad parents. Part of this lesson is “no means no.”
OK – I’ll agree that understanding starts at home, and that parents can absolutely be critical in making sure their children, of both genders, understand rape and that “no means no.” I think there are plenty of influences in this world today that go against that – and that we are overly obsessed with sex. You are right, parents need to have these conversations with their children. I don’t, however, think that it’s the only thing keeping men from raping – men without that upbringing don’t rape all the time.
Actually, it’s femnists who say men have a propensity toward violence and misogyny.
The existence of “rape culture” has been nagged into existence as a given, so that it can be used as moral authority to demand one thing or another, or…you’re enabling rape culture.
Crap.
Several years ago, a woman working in my office thanked me for helping her out in the parking lot. I had not a clue.
After some discussion, we figured out what was happening. I was facing the other way, sixty feet away from her and the guy trying to give her a hard time. I was scraping ice from the windshield, a noisy process. She turned to ask me for help. The guy split. Here’s the deal. This guy had no idea who I was. Had I been the fems’ fav stereotype, I’d have grinned and said, “party on, brother”. Or perhaps I was a cripple. Or perhaps I was a pacifist who though Gandhi was entirely too macho. Or perhaps I’d pretend to see nothing.
He had no idea. But his experience with the world of the next guy walking down the street is that the next guy walking down the street, hearing a request for help, would really, really fuck up his day.
So, as to rape culture…I take the word of a potential rapist. His experience is never to mess with a woman when there’s a generic, just happened to be nearby, man around.
IOW, no rape culture.
You obviously do not understand what rape culture is about.
Aside from being a collective guilt campaign promoting misandry, why should any Man give a rats ass about the multiple, MULTIPLE, subjectivist definitions “Rape Culture”?
I don’t support rape, I refused to be placed on trail for my gender and I’m not walking on egg shells for any women’s neurotic disorder.
“The existence of “rape culture” has been nagged into existence as a given”
Exactly. No coherent explanation of what the concept means has been given and the proponents of the idea themselves are inconsistent.
The above article doesn’t even bother to explain what rape culture means.
Nikki many are speaking out about rape culture and gender abuse!
It’s just hard to be heard when you have to talk and run at the same time in full Battle Armour! P^)
Absolutely, and I genuinely, wholeheartedly, adore the men and women who do. My point here was beyond that – we speak out in defense of women, but we don’t speak out in defense of men, in terms of what that dialogue says about how men behave and what to expect from them. I don’t buy that. Does that make sense?
“we speak out in defense of women, but we don’t speak out in defense of men”
The “we” is interesting! I am happy to speak out in defense of anyone who is being abused, misrepresented, disrespected and generally bullied by others.
Better still – I encourage them to find their own voice and say it their own way.
We can speak for others – or We can allow them to speak for themselves. It’s just harder to get men to do it after all the years of so many ladies insisting we stay quiet and be told P^)
Ha! You put me in my place, sir.
I never mean to generalize, and yet I still do. I suppose I include myself in the “we”, as I don’t know how my views are taking by others and what it is I need to change – but I shouldn’t include you in my personal statements.
Yes – agreed, we should encourage one another to speak out – although I’d argue there are times when people cannot, and we do actually need to speak for them. I also agree with you that men have been told for too long that they should be the strong, silent type.
“I also agree with you that men have been told for too long that they should be the strong, silent type.”
It’s one of the advantages of the Net – men have been allowed to live a double life! P^)
At work they can grab 10 minutes and blog their hearts out, be weak and vulnerable and even say off the wall things – but come the end of the working day they have to transform into the strong silent types and keep the Status Quo! P^)
Revolutionary, ain’t it?
… and don’t confuse whimsy for warfare! You do burlesque – you know how to tease and misdirect to get the point across! P^)
You mean like they dont have to be told NOT to hit other kids or call them nasty names? If it was all just instinctual then there would never be any murder, assault, stealing OR rape by either sex. Maybe its not a culture of rape but one of disconnection between fellow human beings that more or less starts in the home.
“There is this underlying assumption that men just rape.”
- No, there isn’t. I’ve never seen that stated by a man on GMP, written by a man in any publication, or heard that spoken by any other man. I’ve never encountered a man that accepts that “Men Can’t Help Themselves. Wear the wrong clothes or say the wrong thing, and Men believe they are Entitled to a woman’s sex.” Not one man. Ever. The only place I have seen or heard those messages is from the extreme feminist left that keeps pushing the concept of “rape culture”. Are there websites that suport those messages? I’m sure there are. You can find websites that support every evil act the human mind can imagine against women, men, children, blacks, latinos, whites, arabs, asians, and animals of all kinds. That doesn’t make it a “culture” of society. American society/culture does not expect men to rape, nor does it accept individuals that do rape. So here in America, your “rape culture” is a “fake culture”.
“Men Rape.”
- No, “men” don’t rape. Rapists rape. Pedophiles molest. Thieves steal. Murderers kill. All those things are done by INDIVIDUALS of both genders. Your generalization against the male gender is bald face bigotry, and it won’t be tolerated, even if ment to combat the evils of rape.
“They never once focused, even for a moment, on what all of these terrible stories say about men.”
- Again, that’s because it says nothing about men. It say something about those INDIVIDUALS that chose to rape.
Stop your bigotry, Nikki.
Luckey, excellent rebuttal of this author’s article.
And what percentage of men in the West rape women?
My understanding is that most rape of women by men, is committed by men under 30.
I remember a feminist article a couple of years ago about a study that said out of 1882 male college students, 6% of them had raped a woman . With 4% of them(ie.63% of the 6%) being serial offenders. It would be interesting to know if the percentage of noncollege attending rapists under 30 is the same. [I think ive reported the figures accurately, i hate stats. ill leave the stats crunchers to work through it]
If these figures are accurate across demographic groups in the West. Why should all men be held be guilty because 6% of young men rape women.
According to these figures, 94% of men DO NOT rape women. the 4% of men that are serial rapists, are hardcore offenders. I believe no matter how severe the punishment – if they found the opportunity, these serial offenders would commit the crime. They are indifferent to threat of punishment or social outrage, or social disgust.
94% of men DO NOT rape women – There is No rape culture (in the West, And certainly not for working class and above Westerners.)
I actually agree wholeheartedly with you both, and I think we’re actually saying the same thing, just from different angles.
(PS side note – FYI this post was written in advance of the ones currently up at GMP, and the posts I was referencing discussed rape in Afganistan, not assumed male guilt and the like.)
This is exactly my point – men DO NOT rape. Rapist rape. BUT, I feel like we make this crazy-ass assumption that they do when we talk about rape – and I DON’T agree with THAT (consequently we’re in agreement). What I mean is, often when people/media (men AND women) talk about a specific rape, they often re-focus on what a woman was wearing, how she was acting, what she did. Then, of course, we talk about how it’s not her fault (e.g. SlutWalk). No one ever says “it doesn’t matter what she wore, men aren’t people who just need to see some cleavage and they go from normal dude to rapist. Whereas rapists will probably always want to rape, regardless of what you wear.” I think saying that in response to when we talk about rape would also move us from just lumping men into this group over here, but would make the break more clear between rapists and men. Because, to me, that distinction is SO CLEAR, yet we rarely make it.
Nikki
How does the fact that some research shows that at least half women are rapists, or the fact that women are responsible for 70% of all child abuse fit into your bigoted ideology and world view?
Here are the figures on female rapists.
“Rates of sexually aggressive behaviors among women vary from one segment of the United States to another, but the evidence presented here shows that as many as 7% of women self-report the use of physical force to obtain sex, 40% self-report sexual coercion, and over 50% self-report initiating sexual contact with a man while his judgment was impaired by drugs or alcohol (Anderson, 1998). Given these numbers, it is appropriate to conclude that women’s sexual aggression now represents a usual or typical pattern (i.e., has become normal), within the limits of the data reviewed in this paper. ”
h tt p://www.ejhs.org/volume5/deviancetonormal.htm
I didn’t read the article, but I definitely agree that men need to stand up to the rape hysteria culture.
The conflation of dysfunctional criminals who rape with regular everyday men who respect women definitely needs to be stopped.
In a related question which for some reason comes to mind after reading that filth —- why are so many good feminists accepting of bigoted man hating culture?
We aren’t.
Maybe there’s a problem, then, with the way feminists are talking to men. After reading your article, I would have assumed that you were one of the feminists that think that All Men Are Rapists. I understand you’re not from reading the comments, but it makes me wonder who that article is addressed to and what you’re actually trying to say.
I think there’s a fundamental disconnect when feminists try to address men about rape: Rapists don’t read these articles. Men who are trying to be good people do. But when women address their audience as if there were the rapists, it adds fuel for those who say that all femisists believe that All Men Are Rapists.
Does this make any sense?
You make absolute sense. And I agree wholeheartedly that a big part of the problem is how people talk to one another. I personally believe this is at least part of the reason there is so much animosity among some people, men and women, against feminists. It is part of the reason I wrote this piece, why I blog, and why the comments have been so stimulating to me: to get discussion going.
One thing that’s clear is the disconnect just in this discussion – and I wish I had another avenue for dialogue other than post-comments, but a way to talk face-to-face, or at least with better back and forth. I am trying to say exactly what you are saying – that we do nothing by saying All Men Rape – and I personally hear that diatribe underneath discussions around rape. BUT my MAIN point was to ask men to speak up about it – I am actually trying to speak to men, not rapists. I’m trying to ask men who KNOW this (as clearly the readers here do) to tell people who actually don’t know – whether or not they realize that. To speak out and say “men don’t behave that way – don’t expect us to”. Of course, this is my experience and view, and many people don’t have that experience, don’t see that – but I’d say that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist for others (me) and that maybe, if we listened more, we *might* hear it (it’s so subtle sometimes) and say something. My hope is this piece raises awareness of subtle things, and encourages men to say “oh hell no” and speak up.
Obviously, that wasn’t entirely clear to everyone reading this. It’s spurred interesting discussion, but one of the interesting things in that is HOW that disconnect happened. I want to understand that, and learn how I can communicate differently.
Let me reply like a feminist might: by recounting my own experience. One reason I am trying so hard to be a Good Man (and feeling, most days, like I’m failing, whether I really am or not) is because my Catholic upbringing made me ashamed of my sexuality, and my women’s studies courses in college confirmed my shame. That is, as a male, I am a sexual predator, and women are victims.
I wonder what percentage of men are like me. Perhaps I’m just spectacularly fucked up. Regardless, articles like yours (pre-comments) confirm my suspicion that women at base hate men.
“articles like yours (pre-comments) confirm my suspicion that women at base hate men.”
Absolutely untrue. The average woman, the majority of women, like us just as we like (even love!) them. Yeah, we have misunderstandings, but it’s not hatred. Or, for expedience, go visit any site that is representative of the general female population, where rape and gender are seldom (or only occasionally) discussed, and consequently where there are relatively few feminists. You won’t find the open hostility toward all things male that is part and parcel of the feminist movement.
Thanks. It’s good to get another male perspective.
Many of the arguments, views, and opinions in the articles contributed by feminist writers, as well as follow on comments provide clear and present evidence that they do.
Talking of ignoring rape…
has ANY feminist yet admitted that men are raped as often as women are — even if you don’t count male on male rape — and god knows they don’t — according to this latest NISVS survey that was the first major survey to dare to actually ask men if they were raped — and found more saying yes than women?
Or admitted these new figures say that there are a hell of a lot of women rapists?
And is denying both these facts “accepting a culture of rape”?
Kidding of course. I know rape never matters if the victim is male and that the idea of a female rapist is simply fantasy regardless of what the facts say. It’s only a culture of rape when the important people are the victims.
Still if reality did ever have any impact on feminists can you imagine an article asking women why they are not out there all the time telling other women to stop raping men — as the new survey says happens to hundreds of thousands of men a year? I invite Nikki to rewrite her essay into one asking why women are so accepting of female rape of men. Strictly as a work of fiction, of course.
My response would actually be that we should never take sides along gender lines when we’re talking about actual rape. My point here was regarding the ways in which we discuss a rape that happened (please see comment above for explanation).
But in terms of *actual* rape – agreed. Men are raped, trans people are raped – women rape, trans people rape, etc etc etc. So, seems to me the important thing really is Rape is Horrible, Rape Happens to People. We need to work together against sexual violence, AND to make the world a safer place for survivors to speak out about what happened to them, for Rapists to be brought to justice. Those conversations, and that movement, is not “men only” or “women only”.
OK, now do you have any idea why when you say, “we should never take sides along gender lines” I just laugh and right you off as a bigot? Hint: it has something to do with your article, the title of the article and the gender content of your article.
Do you have any sense of why your response to me here would be deeply offensive to a man?
Yes, of course. Probably for the same reason saying “I don’t see race” is rather irritating to people who aren’t white.
I meant that fighting sexual violence is not gender-specific. At least, I wouldn’t want to chose sides over who has it “worse” based on gender – I don’t find that helpful. That’s my point, not that gender is irrelevant.
Want to speak against rape culture?
Here is your chance to put your foot where your mouth is, 6,000 signatures are needed, let’s start rolling:
http://www.change.org/petitions/petition-for-encyclopedia-dramatica-to-take-down-rape-page
It’s ridiculous we need a petition to take down this type of garbage.
As long as there is rape culture, the presumption of male guilt will exist. They go hand in hand. Men can collectively change the course of this – it’s in your hands.
As pointed out in the other thread where you posted this: Even if that petition reaches its target of 6,000 signatures its extremely unlikely that the admin of that site (a woman) will take down the page. Its a bit of a non starter I’m afraid.
People who like to offend and people who love to be offended living in harmony.
Just out of curiosity, do you have any planned petition against the Vagina monologues for the discussed rape of a 13y/o girl (changed to 16 in later adaptations) by a grown woman?
I don’t remember that particular monologue, but I’m guessing it takes it a little more seriously than the ED piece. Probably not the best comparison.
Actually Peter it’s the perfect comparison. Contrary to your assumption the detail of the rape in the vagina monologues is depicted as being a positive experience for the girl.
In this scene the girl (or her v@gina or whatever) details how an older woman seduced her and plied her with alcohol and drugs. While it was not forcible rape, it was a grown woman exhibiting no ethical standards and predatory manipulation and innebriation to have sex with (in the original version) a 13y/o girl.
The girl then goes on to say that “Some may say this was rape. If it was rape it was a good rape.”
So my question still stands:
Is MichelleG going to start a petition against the vagina monologues for the portrayal of rape being a POSITIVE EXPERIENCE for the victim?
Or are we as a society going to assume that when female libido goes off the rails it can never be harmful the way male libido can?
Let’s have some consistency.
The only people I’ve ever heard say men are too weak to say no, or are weaker than women when it comes to sex, are women. I’ve never heard a man say that men just can’t help themselves when a woman is dressed a certain way or flirted or whatever. In my life, only once have I had someone say that it wasn’t rape if: a woman and a man were having sex, and she said she needed to stop, and he forcibly kept going. The person who said that was not rape was a woman. Only once in my life has someone told me, in sincerity, that when a girl told me she didn’t want to go any further and I stopped I was actually supposed to keep going and “make” the girl do what I wanted. This was from the girl’s (female) best friend. I told the girl in question about this conversation I had with her friend and she thought it was funny. I’m not saying men are universally blameless and Lord knows that I’ve failed to speak up at times when I should have, but come on — women do this rape-culture-promoting stuff, in my experience, at least as often as men. I know men who sort of look down on promiscuous women, but almost all of the active slut-shaming I’ve seen has come from women.
And I know I can’t be the only man who’s heard women say they want to feel like the man they’re sleeping with just can’t control his desire around them — that their attractiveness overwhelms his self-control.
A fine post Rick
Two points:
One – Rick, you are the dude I am talking about. The Good Man who knows any talk of what a woman wears or does as a reason why she was raped are bullshit. Because you would never force a woman to have sex with you. Full stop. So, yeah, that’s my point. You are the real men out there.
Two – YES! Women do the slut-shaming and the “oh, but she should’ve known better” shiz ALL THE TIME. Couple months ago, I was arguing with two good friends, they had told me about a friend who was gang-raped in college. They kept saying “well, she should’ve worn X and shouldn’t have done Y” and I was arguing those things DO NOT excuse rape. One of my friend’s boyfriends (also a good man) happened to come over, and he said “yeah, clothing and behavior don’t ‘make’ men rape.” I never meant to insinuate that men perpetrate rape culture on their own. Absolutely not.
I think rape culture can be a real thing, look at the superfree clubs in Japan, but mostly it isn’t. Or if it is its nowhere near as widespread as depicted by authors such as Nikki. For comparison, lets compare rape culture to other crimes influence by culture and see how it stands up:
Drug Culture: Jenny B is with her new friends in college, three of them are smoking weed. One of them offers Jenny a joint. She accepts because all her friends are doing it.
Gang Culture: David O is hanging out with his friends, two of them are in the same gang as his older brother. They encourage him to shoplift a bag of crisps from the shop across the road. He does so because he feels he has to in order to be accepted.
Rape Culture: James C is hanging out with his friends. Two of them start making jokes about women. A woman wearing a miniskirt walks down the path. His friends begin raping her, he joins in because he looks up to them.
Does that last example make any sense? The first two make perfect sense because they are communal activities, drug-taking and petty crime is often something suggested by friends and exacerbated by peer pressure. Gang rape exists, but as far as I’m aware its much much less common than rape involving a solo perpetrator. Given that fact, and the way men actually accused of rape are usually treated by other men its a little difficult to see where there’s room for this theory of all male culture being fundamentally rapacious.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2074339/Cry-rape-slap-wrist-Teenage-girl-lies-left-man-prison-savagely-beaten-gets-80-fixed-penalty-notice.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
OK. First, I think the point keeps getting missed about what rape culture actually is. Rape culture is not the idea that “oh, my friends are doing some raping, so I’ll join in”. Rape culture is the idea that, if a woman is sexually assaulted, it’s her damn fault for X, Y, or Z reason. Rape culture is what makes woman I know blame themselves for being raped. Rape culture is also why NONE the women I know who have been sexually assaulted reported that assault. It would also be the reason men don’t speak out about their rapes, too – and why they are shamed for it instead. Rape culture exists in that forum.
My point here is that I don’t think we come out and say “men rape” – but it’s in the things we don’t say, and the things we don’t talk about. It’s actually in the idea that all rape is committed by men on women. It’s in the idea that women wearing something or behaving some way actually caused a man to rape her – again, a rapist is always going to want to rape, but a man is never going to decide to rape due to something like that. It’s ludicrous, but IMHO it’s also a subtle, underlying thing we don’t say.
As an aside, I fully agree with you that gang rape may be less common, but I do think there are plenty of instances where, when that occurs, some men join in because they feel they have to. I’d argue this is also rape culture – that men think this is what other men do, so they have to do it too. They don’t say no, either.
Thats the problem though. Rape culture has no clear definition and is defined in variously more or less extreme ways by different feminists. Take this article for instance:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/04/facebook-hate-speech-women-rape
“What Facebook and others who defend this pernicious hate speech don’t seem to get is that rapists don’t rape because they’re somehow evil or perverted or in any way particularly different from than the average man in the street: rapists rape because they can. Rapists rape because they know the odds are stacked in their favour, because they know the chances are they’ll get away with it.”
Here the author defines rape culture as telling rape jokes and directly attributes all rape to this behviour. She then goes on to explain how all men are rapists and just need a few drinks and the rights circumstances. Thats me shes talking about, genderqueerness aside I was born with a penis, so I’m a rapist. Words like that are hard to ingore.
I’m sure you don’t agree with that statement based on the comments you’ve made above, but its not hard to see why most men, and many women, find it a bit difficult to get behind rape culture as a theory. If you’re serious about tackling public perceptions of rape I’d strongly recommend dropping the term, its a bit like the swastika: it used to have various meanings, but its been so irrevocably tainted by extremist groups that its not really recoverable anymore (sorry about that, Godwin’s law is applicable but I couldn’t think of a better example).
As for what you’re describing: a system of victim blaming and belittling that forces rape into the closet. I’m still skeptical. I’ve heard my friend’s make rape jokes (male and female) some of them are even rape victims, but I don’t challenge it because its always in context and expressed in such a way that makes it clear that its not to be taken seriously or interpreted as justifying assault. If and when I do hear such language I do indeed challenge it, as do most people i know, feminist or not. When you examine how society actually treats men who are accused of rape, rightfully or wrongfully, and the judgements that are leaped to, its a bit hard to see where this all-pervasive attitude happens. To answer your piece: Most men do challenge rape culture as you describe it, feminists just don’t write articles about them.
As an aside, yep, I have no issue with gang rape being described as a criminal culture (see the superfree clubs), so long as normal men aren’t dragged into the mess. Doing so is a bit like blaming anyone who drinks for alcaholism. Most men out there stand up for women and don’t take liberties with other people’s consent.
“Rape culture is the idea that, if a woman is sexually assaulted, it’s her damn fault for X, Y, or Z reason.”
According to this definition, there is a [fill in the blank] culture of every crime that is routinely committed. SOMEONE, albeit a minority will always argue that the victim should have done or not done this or that.
So, why do you single out rape as the only one that has such a culture, since this happens with every crime? For instance, feminists very consistently blame male victims of violence by claiming that “most perpetrators are male.”
HOW DARE YOU NIKKI! How dare you sit here and accuse me, celibate me, repressed male me, me who won’t approach a girl for fear of being labeled a rapist, even though THE FACT IS she does noticeably flaunt her want of a sexual encounter. Of not doing my part. You are a taint on the very fabric of our society. YOUR casual description of ALL men. Your incredibly sexist and mysoginistic descriptions. I am NOT at fault. YOU ARE.
I would never accuse you, personally, of anything – and definitely would not accuse you of not doing your part.
I think, perhaps, the point again missed is that I am not saying, for a second, that I expect you to rape someone. Dear heavens, no. I’m talking about how we discuss rape – not that men rape. I believe the opposite. Further, I actually think you’re a victim here – the fear and anger you have at being repressed, being afraid, being unable to live your life fully – I think that is an example of how our culture hurts men. And it’s not ok. That is a separate, yet very critical, conversation.
It’s obvious this moron didn’t even read the article. And just knee jerk reacted to it. Trolling you.
I actually did read the article. I read it, cried for a little bit, and realized wackjobs like you are the reason women are afraid and victimized. Pointing fingers at every male on the planet is not the way to help women. Empowering them is. Empowering them about the men who do speak out, who do fight this, and who do protect women. Pretending they don’t exist only makes women feel more fear.
AWESOME article! Thanks!
Thank you for reading!
Just a quick note to say that the comments thus far are actually really, well, interesting, but also (maybe strangely?) heartening. Men do not rape, men are not ok with being told that they do.
What I’d ask is this: When you hear someone saying “well, that person should not have worn X or done Y, if they hadn’t maybe they would not’ve been raped” we should all speak up with “why do what they wear or what they say matter? These are not things that cause rape – rapists cause rape. Clothing and behavior are not going to cause anyone to suddenly rape.” Maybe then we’d move the conversation away from rape as something men just might do – to something rapists do. That would, IMHO, actually make a big difference.
Nikki I hear ya!
Blaming the victim is always wrong!
I have never heard anyone ( other than an offender ) excusing sexually abusing a child by claiming the child invited that abuse – the child dressed provocatively – the child behaved provocatively – the child made it clear they sought the experience. So there is little evidence of rape culture there. Joe Public and Joanna Public do not like events and don’t display activity in support of Rape Culture.
I also have to say that the only people I have come across who even think of discussing female rape by reference to the Victim’s clothing, behavior etc are usually rather middle aged – either by mindset or physical age. That is anecdotal evidence I know! But in general Joe and Joanna treat the whole matter with revulsion and don’t blame the victim.
I also find it interesting in my experience that when it’s male on male rape the same discussion does not take place – he was dressed provocatively – he was inviting it! Of course you do get a few homophobic types who will say that the victim was inviting it because they are an eternal sinner and hell fire and damnation will follow – and it does not matter if the victim was straight! So evidence of rape culture falls down there.
I have to agree in many ways that rape culture, as it is defined, exists – but it’s prevalence is in question.
I also have to look at the definition being used, because if Joe and Joanna in general treat rape with revulsion and don’t blame victims, then there is a possibility that the definition being used is not in step with everyday culture. It may have been in the past, but now it is not.
Where are the well designed and well executed studies that show it does exist – and what is the demographic of the people who believe in it and perpetuate it?
I hear all the time of Sports and Jocks being linked to rape culture – just as I have heard time and time again of that group being linked to Homophobia. And yet – you then get cases such as Brian Sims – openly gay, Football Captain and backed up by his team – and that story is over ten years old!
There are also a number of other cases of openly gay sports men and woman in Jock and Sports Culture – and the media are not in a feeding frenzy over it. Why? Is it that the myth of Jock Culture has changed as years have passed – and many have not noticed. They just accepted the myth?
There has been a linking of Rape Culture to Victim Shame – as in people who have been sexually abused/assaulted not reporting it, speaking about it and keeping hidden.
There is a valid question to ask Is Victim Shame Part of Rape Culture at all – or is it another factor that has been incorrectly linked to Rape Culture?
I was abused as a child – and I know what it was like then – but I also deal with abuse survivors today, and I have seen a significant shift in attitudes by both survivors and society – I have had a sort of vested interested in monitoring it all.
It’s just as possible that Victim Shame is the product of judgmental religious views in society linked to sex and even sexual repression – or other factors. Where is the actual research that shows the link Rape Culture is the Parent or Sibling Of Victim Shame?
One of the biggest issues that I have encountered is Old Ideas and definitions being regurgitated long after they have stopped being a relevant and adequate explanation of people’s experience. I have even commented on it here on GMP.
One comment was turned into a Post about PTSD – but if you want to get a real flavor of how old views get in the way – how about Buckminsterfullerene and chemistry? Loosing a Nobel Prize is a bit of an eye opener!
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/women-rape-boys-too/comment-page-1/#comment-69641
It could be that using the term Rape Culture is out of sync and even counter productive. Maybe “Rape Tolerance” is a better term that reflects changes in society – and which would also motivate many people to not tolerate rape – or any factors feeding into rape?
Culture changes over time, so insisting it has stood still works against a message and even prevents change.
So many find Rape Culture a nonsense term – so maybe the conversation needs to change so that the message is not lost?
You raise some really interesting points! Wow, ok.
I personally see rape culture as quite prevalent – from what I see in the media (e.g. that little girl gangraped in TX, http://thefreshxpress.com/2011/03/victim-blaming-in-cleveland-texas-gang-rape-of-11-year-old/) and from *my* experiences with women who have been assaulted (none of them reported, they overwhelmingly blame themselves). That is *my* experience – it is clearly not yours. However, I would also add the difference between when women and men are raped. Blaming a female victim = rape culture, but when we don’t even talk about male rape? Why, because in rape culture men perpetrate rape, they don’t get raped? AND because all our weirdness about gay men, and our rigid gender stereotypes about men, too? All of it? THAT is a really critical area for discussion in of itself. These things are not simple, but complicated, convoluted, and interconnected. That also touches on your point that Victim Shame is something with multiple facets, and never the same across the board anywhere.
So – maybe rape culture exists for me in this way, and for you in that way, AND maybe our dialogue around that alone is of incredible use. Furthermore, picking apart the intersections of all these other narratives, including Victim Shame/Blame, is also significant to moving forward. That, to me, is where real conversations can happen – not trying to tell each other who has it right and whose got it wrong.
You also raise a REALLY interesting (and hopeful!) point: there may be a disconnect between rape culture as it is perpetrated in the media and pop culture and how people actually feel about it. Maybe it’s far more ingrained there than in how we actually view rape. Which, to me, IS hopeful, and speaks to the change you also talk about. I agree with the term “rape tolerance” in some instances… and to begin looking at this in more subtle terms…
Of course, we should also keep in mind we’re having a conversation predominately about specific groups of people in terms of where they live, their social/economic status, and their race.
If someone goes out in a thunderstorm and gets wet, and I say something like, “Next time wear a coat”, am I blaming the victim?
No – just being daft!
Language is a very poor tool for communication – and short pithy comments are a recognized tool for deliberately misunderstanding and twisting.
There is an art to getting the pithy comments right!
If they go out in a thunder storm and get wet – the correct response is they should stay home in future and just stand in the shower! P^)
“… from *my* experiences with women who have been assaulted (none of them reported, they overwhelmingly blame themselves). That is *my* experience – it is clearly not yours. However, I would also add the difference between when women and men are raped. ”
… and *I* see how *you* have been working to segregate *me* and *them*.! P^)
Nikki — I have experience of dealing with all survivors across all genders and age groups – and all forms of Rape from childhood, to believe it or not, pensioner.
I’m not coming at matters from the position of being a male – I’m looking at all types of survivors.
I am a survivor myself – and it has been an interesting journey! Over time my label keeps getting changed. I have been a victim of abuse – a survivor of abuse – in the last ten years I was apparently re christened as a rape victim and then a survivor. I keep wondering what I should have as an epitaph? P^)
I have never been confused about what happened – but a great many have been confused about how I should be viewed and treated because of the ever changing language and views of events. It’s a factor that is common to so many who have been subjected to what is now renamed sexual violence! I have to wonder what I will be next year? P^)
For me the reason why men as survivors don’t feature in rape culture is simple. The term Rape Culture is a model of society created over 40 years ago. At that time the term rape was literally exclusively used to define male penetration of a woman.
You can see the whole thing enshrined in law – woman gets raped – statutory rape is age – molestation is for children – and the guys get??? “Deviant Sexual Intercourse” – a hang over from GAY men being criminalized. The Guy taking was not the criminal – the guy giving was!
Evan that hand over form the GAY old days is now changing since if the taker is seen to coerce the giver the taker is the criminal. What ever happened to the old days of buggery? Legal Eagles are fighting all the time with language – how it is written in statute – what it means – and then they get case law and supreme courts changing it all again.
40 years on we have present day Culture – Society – the language has changed, the term rape has changed – the law as usual is still playing catch up (will it never change P^( ) – and that Model created through thought and words is over 40 years old and no longer synchronized with society.
40 years ago – how I do remember them – people used terms like Fab and Groovey – fashions were different – media was different – people had to use public libraries because there was no public Internet (that arrived 20 years later) – ideas and language changed at a lesser rate than today. Fashion used to take three years to go Global back in the 70′s – now it takes 3 seconds or less! It’s called electronic publishing – and global supply chains.
We even talk about Digital Culture and Digital Society – the way we are communicating now – and that didn’t come into anything like reality until just ten years ago. LOL is new language from a Virtual Culture and Society. Hell – I can remember the days when a mobile phone was the size of a house brick and it cost the GDP of a small African nation to call the office. I can remember the first ever PC and I even remember Windows version 1 – and faxes being new and even Telex, though I was not around when it was new. I have used telex and even used a telex machine myself.
Rape Culture as a concept may still have validity – but the name is out of sync with the rest of the world – In English anyway. The two words “Rape” and “Culture” do not have the same meaning they did 40 years ago – that’s two generations.
In 1970 the term culture was very narrow in meaning and dealt with Arts. The idea of culture being what we all lived in and through only started to be used because it was first used in the negative “Counter Culture” – an academic term coming out of Berkley. The Word Society was hardly used – we didn’t have a society we just got on with life.
A great deal of language started in Academic Circles and then got adopted into common usage. Just look at how often Conflate turns up on the net now – ten years ago It didn’t feature. Now it’s become almost a metaphor for Troll. Oh Trolls used to live under bridges once then in the 1990′s they suddenly relocated to a computer screen near you.
In many ways Rape Culture is a sociological construct and as such I am surprised that Sociologists who created it have missed a fundamental aspect of their own disciple – societies are not static – they change. One of the major features of that is how “Language” changes.
I have to wonder – if feminism as a social model is effecting change why would terms from 40 years ago which no longer jibe with social changes be so remorselessly used? Is feminism just a static concept that can brook no change – even in language?
I’m also concerned that the term Rape Culture is almost a prison. It traps all people in to mindsets and modern language usage that simply fails to communicate any more. When the term Rape Culture was created it was a way of releasing people to think in new ways and effect change. Is that still true today?
Rape Culture from Wikipedia
“According to the Encyclopedia of Rape, “The term rape culture originated in the 1970s during the 2nd wave feminist movement and is often used by feminists to describe contemporary American culture as a whole.”"
so it was defining a view of society 40 years ago. Is that view still valid now?
“Slutwalk -Although it had been in academic usage since its inception, the term ‘rape culture’ was scarcely used in popular culture and the media until 2011. ”
So in 2011 the media started to use a 40 year old term and linked it to a very modern term Slutwalk.
Forgive me – but Media tends to be one lazy business – especially news media – when to comes to using language in it’s correct form.
It even raises the question – is Rape Culture as it is being discussed a media mess or a reality?
Slutwalk is a wonderful word – it reclaims the negative!
Rape Culture? Does it reclaim the word Rape – or has it’s meaning so changed in the last 40 years that putting those two words together just causes confusion and a collapse of communication?
For me it’s now Cultural Jargon that is out of date and causing problems not solving any!
Very interesting and meaty post. Thats a five course meal of a post to ponder:)
Strikingly put Media. in your experience for female-on-male-adult rape, is the script similar to male-on-female-adult rape where the female victim is asked what she was wearing etc. Or is the script similar to male-on-male-adult rape where those questions are not asked?
When I’m dealing with cases there is no script for anyone!
The Protagonists write it – no one authors scenes and ideas for them!
Ok then, in your experience for female-on-male-adult rape does the below happen to the male victim, or not?
I also find it interesting in my experience that when it’s male on male rape the same discussion does not take place – he was dressed provocatively – he was inviting it! …
Not in those exact words. It’s also worth considering that such questions are not normal when violence is involved. Rape at Knife Point is not the same as say drug rape where a drug such a Rohypnol has been used. The issues arise when there is a query as to the ability to provide consent.
I have had to deal with a perp who made it quite clear that she was motivated by what would be best described as Lust – and that the male victim fitted a particular image and body type that was for them sexually arousing.
Premeditation was also present. Claims that the victim had invited matters were made, but the premeditation made that point moot.
During Police Interview of the victim it was required to ask if they had invited events, made any indication that they wished to have sex etc. These have to be asked to deal with evidence and assessment of offense.
On the other hand – Gossips can’t be controlled, and some will always seek to have comment to make about others due to personal motivation, antagonism and even too much to drink.
Very interesting reading, thanks
I’d go even further. I think those statements are a product of the nature of rape, not any culture surrounding it.
Think about it, most rape cases involve two people and no witnesses. The only physical evidence can also be caused by perfectly legal consentual sex, so it ends up as one person’s word against another. This alone explains the low conviction and trial rate of rape cases. If a justice system produced a high rate of convictions for reported rape, it would suggest that only provable cases were being reported, or that kangaroo justice was in effect, more than that rape was being taken more seriously.
Then theres the trial itself. Most countries worth living in have a system of innocence until guilt is proven. On this basis most rape cases are based on one person’s word against the other. This is where the “shes asking for it” stuff really comes in. *Both* parties are subject to character assassination in order to try the case. The council for the prosecution attempts to portray the accused as a violent misogenist and the defence tries to portray the accuser as a vindictive liar.
It goes both ways and theres no avoiding it. To do anything less would be to fail to try the case properly or to throw innocent men in jail (false accusations of rape do happen and they destroy lives). Take the DSK vs Diallo case, none of us will ever know what happened, there were huge irregularities on both sides, and both of them came out of it looking like criminals.
To make the opposite argument to yours: Why do we live in a culture where men can have their name and character dragged through the mud on the strength of an unproven accusation? The answer is that we live in an imperfect and unjust world and this is the best we can do. Rape victims will continue to be questioned for their actions and motivations and falsely accused men will continue to be victimised by society.
Hi Nikki
Re the ongoing discussion around “Rape Culture” and my queries as to it’s origins, one kind soul provided me with an interesting reference that points to the actual origination in 1974/5.
I’ve started to highlight some of the information as part of the Discussion “I Can’t Speak for Men, and I Shouldn’t Have to” where the “Rape Culture” issue again comes up.
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/i-cant-speak-for-men-and-i-shouldnt-have-to/comment-page-1/#comment-80341
It seems that the term “Rape Culture” is actually the title for a film looking at rape and focusing on male on male rape in Lorton Prison in the Washington DC. It comes from work between a group “Men Against Rape” who were linked to DC Rape Crisis Center.
The Film is listed on IMBd here – http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0156938/?licb=0.39036162735717395
Read the other thread for further document links.
I am having to joke that some will insist I’m MRA – “Medaling Rational Archivist”! P^)
It does seem that there is a confluence of thinking and media at the heart of the name and issues. Spooky!
Cheers
The term “rape culture” is feminist psychobabble. There is no such thing. They talk circles around it but never define it or provide evidence of it.
As evidence, rape is considered by the law and by people in general to be a very serious crime, and is seldom done in the presence of anyone else. Rapists are considered the scum of the earth, just like child molestors. As evidence of our “culture’s view of rapists, only convicted child molestors and rapists, even after serving their time in prison, are forever labeled rapists and child molestors.
Being known as a rapist is a scarlet letter. There is no rape culture among law abiding people.
Don’t forget “Law-abiding people” have FREEDOM OF SPEECH to cover their ass when they want to insult and discriminate against a whole group of people, on condition you show a sense of humour about it.
Take Encyclopedia Dramatica rape definition for example. It promotes rape culture and gives instructions on how to rape: http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Rape
I just came across this: “Dec. 15th: A bill that would create America’s first Internet censorship system is going to a full committee for a vote, and is likely to pass.” So there is maybe a glimmer of hope, that this rape page can and will be censored eventually.
If there is a rape culture, there is also “armed robbery culture”, “car jacking” and “car theft”, “embezzlement culture”, and culture for every other criminal act that exists.
Yeah, censorship’s great as long as you’re the one deciding what gets censored.
Be careful what you wish for.
If you’re encountering confusion from men about this topic, I’m guessing it’s because every single guy I know is bewildered by the notion that any man 1) can’t control himself and 2) automatically rapes. No guys I personally know feel they are entitled to a woman’s body. So while some people in feminist circles talk a lot about “rape culture,” guys like me have never heard it adequately explained.
If you’re talking about people saying to a rape victim “Why did you wear those clothes?” or “Why were you in that neighborhood at that time of night?” I can kind of see your point. Rape is never, EVER acceptable. It is a heinous crime and a blight on humanity. No one ever asks to be raped, and no one deserves it.
So when you say “Rape culture says that we should expect men to be violent, misogynistic, and to not even notice, let alone care, what a woman wants, as long as she did something to make him think she wants to have sex. No, scratch that. As long as she did something to make him think about sex,” and ask why we’re not offended, I have a simple answer. I believe the majority of men DO NOT BELIEVE in rape culture and we don’t feel that speaks to us or for us. Essentially, it’s incorrect and moot. Most guys do not feel this way. At all.
In essence, I think you’re preaching to the choir.
Argh. Lost two paragraphs in that last response. Sorry.
Yes – I think I am preaching to the choir, and yes I am in agreement with you, and yes that is partially my point. The main point is, however, if we are all of the same mindset here (duh), then we should be speaking out more clearly. I don’t personally hear men speaking out against this kind of underlying notions that can be very subtle but are there. They speak out against rape and assault (absolutely) but I mean *specifically* saying “hey, that’s not how men behave, no matter what you wear. That’s how rapists behave.” That’s not always at the forefront of conversations around rape, and I think it should be.
Thank you Nikki for this piece. You speak for all women.
The rape culture phenomena, much like porn, have been created by men for men, but women are the ones targeted ending up suffering for their actions. It’s time for men for ALL men to speak against this vile practice.
Good men do not accept rape culture – they denounce it. Your title for this piece is an oxymoron.
Nikki
I have a question for you
How does the fact that some research shows that at least half women are rapists, or the fact that women are responsible for 70% of all child abuse fit into your bigoted ideology and world view?
Here are the figures on female rapists.
“Rates of sexually aggressive behaviors among women vary from one segment of the United States to another, but the evidence presented here shows that as many as 7% of women self-report the use of physical force to obtain sex, 40% self-report sexual coercion, and over 50% self-report initiating sexual contact with a man while his judgment was impaired by drugs or alcohol (Anderson, 1998). Given these numbers, it is appropriate to conclude that women’s sexual aggression now represents a usual or typical pattern (i.e., has become normal), within the limits of the data reviewed in this paper. ”
h tt p://www.ejhs.org/volume5/deviancetonormal.htm
And given that most men are prone to protecting women from any bad thing that that might happen to them including rape, and the feminist movement, the movement represents women, denies, minimizes and sweeps female perpetrated abuse under the carpet isn’t your article and position very hypocritical?
Wouldn’t this position indicate that both sexes are capable of violence and abuse? Because women assault doesn’t mean there isn’t less of a rape culture, I’d say it would mean there is more actually. One in which both sexes are fond of justifying their behaviors to get what they want.
Until both sides get out of this binary thinking, we won’t ever be able to fix much.
Julie
If a political group is actively denying abuse and rape, and depicting rape as gendered as Nikkis political group and ideology does, they are an overt and deliberate child abuse and rape culture and in no position to play the damsel in distress and make mass false accusations relating to rape against the majority of men, as Nikki is.