Alyssa Royse wonders how we would react if the sexual harassment leveled against Anderson Cooper on New Year’s Eve had happened to a woman.
Barring one obscure episode of Seinfeld in which she played George’s assistant, I don’t think I’ve ever found Kathy Griffin funny, and I give the credit for the Seinfeld episode to the writers. But not until New Year’s Eve this year, when she used Anderson Cooper and his penis as a punch line over and over and over again, did I find her offensive. One penis joke would have been fine. But when he kept saying no, and she kept going, I became increasingly horrified. When she kept insisting that she knew he “wanted it” even when he kept saying he didn’t, I became enraged. When she kept touching him, and making moves to “get him”, I wondered if I was just insane.
Let’s be clear, this is Rape Culture, plain and simple. This is using another person’s body as a tool for your own gratification, whether it’s a laugh, attention, status or a schtick. This is putting your goals ahead of someone else’s right to agency over their own body.
Even though it was a woman doing it to a man.
Do I think that Kathy Griffin was being outright abusive of Anderson Cooper? Maybe not. But I do think that seeing this behavior normalized by two public figures degrades our understanding of bodily agency in relationships. It literally makes a joke out of our boundaries.
To make this crystal clear, imagine this scene played out between any two different people. Try reversing the genders: the guy repeatedly grabbing the breasts or crotch of the female anchor and asking if she wanted him to perform oral sex on her. Imagine that every time she said no he said, “oh come on, you know you want it” and grabbed at her, and that it happened over and over again.
Hillarious? No.
Best case scenario, Griffin and Cooper both think this is funny and are totally in on it together. In which case, CNN has a lot to answer to for thinking that this behavior was funny and agreeing to air it. One has to wonder if they would think it was funny if this were just taking place in the break room at their offices, no cameras to help drive ratings. If it’s not funny there, then it’s not funny to sell it to the rest of the world as acceptable behavior.
In another scenario, Griffin went a bit rogue, as she’s been known to do. Then what we’re talking about is workplace sexual harassment. I mean, Cooper pretty much has to go along with it, right? After all, they are live on the air. In that case, wouldn’t it be the responsibility of the producers to cut to a break and haul her marauding ass off stage? No. Again, reverse the gender roles, what would we say about a company that let their female employees be touched and talked to in this way?
♦◊♦
In my opinion, Kathy Griffin needs to apologize and acknowledge that what happened on New Years Eve was inappropriate.
Even if she doesn’t think she needs to apologize to Anderson Cooper, she sure as hell needs to apologize to the legions of women who have been fighting for generations to end this kind of behavior in the workplace. At the very least, Kathy Griffin needs let us know that she knows this kind of harassment isn’t funny when it happens in the real world. I may be dreaming here, but an acknowledgment that this brand of comedy is what feeds rape culture in the real world would be awfully nice.
One explanation people have used for this behavior is that Griffin and Cooper are friends in real life. But that’s what bothers me the most. As if the fact that they are friends means she doesn’t have to respect his boundaries, means that his “no” doesn’t really mean “no”, or means that she’s allowed to do things that humiliate or degrade him in public or in private.
Why does that piss me off so much? Because that is the very hallmark of of Domestic Abuse. “But baby, I love you, I didn’t mean to hurt you.” “But you’re my wife, I’m allowed to do this.” “That’s just how our relationship is, I’m sure he doesn’t really mean anything by it, I know he loves me.”
This is Rape Culture. This is one of countless instances in our media culture that tells us “no” doesn’t mean no. That it’s okay to keep going after the prize even after someone expresses his or her boundaries.
No. A thousand times, NO.
On behalf of every man, woman and child who has suffered abuse at the hands of a loved one and thought that’s what love was, on behalf of every man and woman who has had to endure a sexually hostile work place, on behalf of every rape victim who heard their attacker say, “Oh, come on, you know you really want it,” Happy New Year, Kathy. Thanks for the many unhappy returns to sexualized violence in a culture that confuses rape for humor, accomplishment and some kind of sick joke.
Guess what Alyssa? I myself am a sexual abuse survivor. I was molested several times by a male babysitter. I was also nearly sexually assaulted twice in my adult life. Growing up I also got my ass beat by my father continually…and I am still here. I function and I have a wonderful life. To quote you: “Even if she doesn’t think she needs to apologize to Anderson Cooper, she sure as hell needs to apologize to the legions of women who have been fighting for generations to end this kind of behavior in the workplace. At the very least,… Read more »
Thus cementing my opinion of her. If she is unable to step back and see how one small part of her act may be a problem in a way that many survivors of sexual abuse – not to mention people who are fighting to end it – can see very clearly, then she has, and is, a serious problem. I am not talking about her general style, or even her overall impact in the world. She’s not my cup of tea, but who cares? And I believe she’s done great things for the LGBTQ population, for which I applaud her.… Read more »
Ok. There is a LOT going on in this article so I am going to have to break it down to you and make in very plain and simple. I don’t think any of you realize what it is you are bitching about and the core of the friendship between Kathy and Anderson Cooper. I am a major fan of Kathy Griffin and her comedy. As a gay man, that woman has done a LOT to bring awareness to many issues that have plagued our community. She will never be stereo-typically called a ‘Lady’ or ‘Proper’, but she is damn… Read more »
Does your website have a contact page? I’m having problems locating it but, I’d like to shoot you an email.
I’ve got some suggestions for your blog you might be interested in hearing. Either way, great blog and I look forward to seeing it develop over time.
@marlen,
I’ll have to remember that. When someone feels that some important line has been crossed, if I disagree I’ll just tell them to “chill”. Cool idea.
If this freaks people out, please never see a Borat movie because you will have a heart attack…. It was a joke between two consenting adult friends. Its Kathy Grffin people what do you expect. If Mr. Cooper was totally against what she does or how she jokes about inappropriate things then he would have never accepted to do the show with her. Comedy is just that, fictional reactions to things that are usually inappropriate , that are also so out there that we just have to laugh because any sensible human being would understand that you just dont act… Read more »
@marlen “Seriously, I promise that in a real sexual harrassement incident the reaction of the afllicted person would not have been anything like Mr. Coopers. Chill out people.” My point made in earlier comments and echoed by a few others is that when it happens to men, from a woman, that is often EXACTLY what it looks like. You feel you need to play along with the joke, you feel you need to not make waves, you feel you need to man up and take what every man must dream about. I am not saying he was harassed, but I… Read more »
It’s also exactly what it looks like when a lot of women are harassed and don’t really know how to respond. Especially in settings that are “Playful” and male dominated, like tech and gaming which is what I am most familiar with. And then we hear things like “they didn’t really protest” and “chill out, it was only a joke.” This normalizes that behavior. It goes well beyond the personal relationship of Cooper and Griffin.
Yes. This gets dangerously close to “You were bothered by that? Geez you need to lighten up.” or “It was a joke, it’s not that serious.” Even if Cooper himself wasn’t bothered by it (and it’s entierly possible that he wasn’t and was just playing along) without his reaction being clearly communicated we see that it will get the same treatment regardless. And that in and of itself is a problem. I know a few folks above have mentioned that the inappropriateness is part of what makes it funny. Well if “this is not real harassment, just comedy” is not… Read more »
@ bob, Alyssa, & Danny – As far as I can tell, I agree with all of you that Griffin’s behavior would be out of line – perhaps even sexual harassment – if it occurred between two random people in any ol’ workplace. However, I think performances, whether the comedic kind or another, are not to be taken at face value, and quite commonly, depict interactions that the audience is expected to know have some purpose other than to normalize whatever the behavior is. You’ve heard of “suspension of disbelief”. Well, I don’t suspend all of it. When I watched… Read more »
You’ve heard of “suspension of disbelief”. Well, I don’t suspend all of it. When I watched The Godfather, I suspended enough belief to understand that in one part of the story, a man was persuaded to do something he didn’t want to do by having the bloody head of his prize racehorse left in his bed. I did not, however, become incensed that the film’s producers would kill an innocent horse like that, and worry that such un-refusable offers would become commonplace in real life since the movie normalized that method of persuasion. For the record there isn’t an already… Read more »
For the record there isn’t an already present issue of prize race horses being murdered and not taken seriously (or else PETA would have been all over it) Interesting add-on to this. I figured PETA probably wasn’t doing their thing when The Godfather was out (early 70’s), but after your comment, I googled to see if I could find any comment from PETA then or later about that scene. I didn’t (but my search wasn’t exhaustive), but I did discover that it appears the horse head used in the scene was real. I’m not going into deep fact-checking on this,… Read more »
I suspect when it comes to who has more say over the cameraman that Cooper has way more pull than Griffin. If Cooper wanted it to totally stop or at least cut to someone else, I’m sure there were things Cooper could have done to signal the cameraman or booth to go somewhere else. It looks like he was too busy laughing.
When I first saw this article, Kathy’s conduct looked pretty bad to me. Andersen’s discomfort seemed real to my (admittedly untrained) eye. But after watching some of the other New Years performances they’ve done, that actually appears to be part of their dynamic, and it was no longer clear to me if Andersen was just acting for the camera or genuinely uncomfortable. As outsiders, we really aren’t able to know how he feels about it – we just have to hope that if that genuinely bothered him that he’d be able to do something about it. As a performance, the… Read more »
When I first saw this article, Kathy’s conduct looked pretty bad to me. Andersen’s discomfort seemed real to my (admittedly untrained) eye. But after watching some of the other New Years performances they’ve done, that actually appears to be part of their dynamic, and it was no longer clear to me if Andersen was just acting for the camera or genuinely uncomfortable. As outsiders, we really aren’t able to know how he feels about it – we just have to hope that if that genuinely bothered him that he’d be able to do something about it. While we can’t know… Read more »
I highly doubt you would ever see this thing happen with the genders reveresed, WHY???, because the male comedian would know or believe his career would be over. Take “THE VIEW” incident where the women made fun of the man who had his penis cut off by his wife. Can you even conceive of any male hosts of a TV talk show doing the same thing. I can’t, not for a milisecond. they know full well the show would be cancelled and they wouldn’t have been able to recover. “THE VIEW” on the other hand issued a rather unapologetic apology… Read more »
For what it’s worth, even if we don’t come to agreement (which is totally not necessary) I am THRILLED that this conversation is taking place, and remain floored by the quality of the comments. Without exception. These are the conversations that increase understanding and change the world.
I’ve tried to put it in terms of a bachelor party at least in my own mind. Bachelor parties are really for the friends of the bachelor and are almost always embarrassing to the bachelor. There is a lot of social pressures on these guys to play along, but I’ve stepped in for the best man on one occasion and the groom on another. The groom got intentionally drunk before the entertainment came. The best man just punked out. Neither faced any social repercussions excepts for some teasing now and then, but I wonder what would happen if they quit… Read more »
The context matters, but does everyone know the context? If you deconstruct the thing you have a woman behaving in a sexually harrassing way toward a man on a nationally televised show. Add the context and you have a “bit” where a woman behaves in a sexually harrassing way toward a man on national television. So there’s that. I suspect that this performance would be perceived differently if the sexes were reversed, and especially among people who identify themselves as feminist. I don’t see that as a “gotcha” or an indictment of feminism. I do see it as a reflection… Read more »
Okay, the matter is on Wikipedia, with this story as the reference. It is ‘notable’ in my opinion. Maybe others will cleanse Wikipedia, but it will remain in Kathy’s “record”.
Drew, Joanna and I actually talked about that in this incident. And I decided to look for more examples and just leave this one simple. But such a piece is on our radar, for sure. If you can think of points / examples, let me know, because I do think it’s important. Although hopefully we realize that it boils down to – “all of our bodies and boundaries need to be respected.”
It’s definitely harrassment. What I wonder Is if it was a *gay* woman would it be even more objectionable? For some reason it bothers me more because Cooper is gay.
One quibble: Kathy Griffin didn’t play George’s assistant. She played an annoying friend of George’s fiancée who based a comedy routine on Jerry.
“For some reason it bothers me more because Cooper is gay.”
Maybe, along with the recent “Gay Mens Sexism and Women’s Bodies” article, we need a “Women’s Sexism and Gay Men’s Bodies” piece?
The fact that Cooper is gay, she knows he’s gay, and she says “you know you want it” is kind of an anti-gay joke, isn’t it? It’s like she’s teasing him by saying “you’re not really gay.” If it’s harassment (IF!) it’s not just sexual harassment, it’s sexual harassment with an anti-gay flavor.
I just thought of this: if, say, Adam Carolla (to pick an equally annoying male comedian) did the same to Rachel MAddow he would never be allowed on TV again.
I’m having a hard time picturing Adam Corolla being especially appealing to the lesbian demographic, but if he was, and he pretended to motorboat Maddow during a New Year’s countdown gig, and it happened after several years of making her laugh and squirm as “the straight man” at similarly vulgar actions during the same gig…he might not be allowed on TV again, but I still wouldn’t consider it sexual harassment. On the other hand, if Griffin had crashed the Situation Room on election night to grab at Wolf Blitzer’s crotch and pretend to fellate him while he was about to… Read more »
So because Griffin has gay male fans (whom she condescendingly refers to as “her” gays) it’s all okay?
You know how Chris Rock can use the N-word in his routines and it’s “okay”, but Jeff Foxworthy can’t? It’s kind of like that. The point of bringing up her gay following, though, wasn’t to prove you should find her funny, just like you might not laugh at any Chris Rock routines that involve the N-word. The point is that Cooper and much of Griffin’s audience expect and enjoy that kind of comedy from her, so that made it different than if the person grabbing at Cooper’s sack had been…let’s say Chris Rock or Jeff Foxworthy. “All okay” makes it… Read more »
“On the other hand, if Griffin had crashed the Situation Room on election night to grab at Wolf Blitzer’s crotch and pretend to fellate him while he was about to call the state of Ohio….” It’s probably wrong that I find this example hysterically funny, isn’t it….. Then again, it would largely boil down to how Wolf felt about it. Journalists spend long hours covering elections, with a lot of mindnumbing facts and figures crossing in front of their faces. I don’t assume playful faux fellatio would be always unwelcome. And don’t tell me there was no fellating going on… Read more »
“Journalists spend long hours covering erections, with a lot of mindnumbing facts and figures crossing in front of their faces. ”
That was totally inappropriate. Shame on you!
You know the old cliché about guys thinking about baseball stats to delay climax? Do you think Wolf uses polling results? “Ohio, Ohio…too close to call…too close to call…precincts…reporting…polls are tight…too close to call…tight pole…I’m…this just in…I’m calling it — Ohhhhhh Hiiiii Ohhhhhhhhh!”
To any Wolf Blitzer fans out there: you’re welcome.
lolololol
I guess I’m the just the eternal optimist or maybe I’ve just been conditioned to believe the hype. My biggest disappointment was the reaction this got on many “feminist / progressive” websites, which actually approved of this “humor” or thought it entertaining. Many of these websites even criticized a particular website for publishing articles they termed as rape apology. You would think that a guy who looked at feminism and rejected it because I determined that it wasn’t actually interested in fighting the abuse of men, would not be surprised at the reaction, but it still feels disappointing. It’s one… Read more »
“Would this be sexual harrassment if it was “any two different people?” In most cases yes, but stripping away all relevant context and making believe it’s the worst possible context involving two random people is a good way to turn lots of benign interactions between friends into outrageous acts.”
I would TOTALLY agree with this if it weren’t on national television. But I think that media sets a standard in a way that holds it to a higher standard than how you or I would behave with our friends in private.
That ‘higher standard’ is what has given us Here Comes Honey Boo Boo; the media is about consumption and whatever will keep the people coming back for more, whether it is because of shock, anger (especially the righteous kind,) fear, or ridicule.
You are right. What I should have set was media SHOULD set a higher standard. It certainly does not on a regular basis. Or perhaps a more nuanced point that media, for better or worse, does set a standard that society seems to follow. I’ve written about why Kim Kardashian bothers me in that light, Honey Boo Boo does to, and why, as such, the behavior between Griffin and Cooper does too. Popular media informs our culture to too great a degree to not pay attention to what it teaches us. In this case, that no doesn’t mean no, and… Read more »
Not that I disagree with the theme and thrust of the piece, but Griffin’s humor is often focused on how obnoxious and boundary-less she is with other people. And herself, she does mock herself a lot, but part of her schtick is being pushy with others. I agree a great deal with Marcus, and I do also see how if had been the opposite direction people wouldn’t like it. But. Comedy isn’t always pretty, in fact, a lot of humor comes from pain and anger and observation and turning traditional roles on their heads (as in a straight woman harassing… Read more »
I agree with most of what you say Julie but there is a matter of degree here. It is not that if it were reversed “people wouldn’t like it,” it would if Anderson Cooper buries his face in between Kathy Griffin’s thighs on live TV it would be that Anderson Cooper never works in TV again and CNN would have a a team of attorneys working all day on New Year’s Day to figure out how to limit their liability. Even if as Marcus points out their working relationship allowed for that kind of interplay. It is also worth noting… Read more »
Agreed Bob. It seems that historic interactions only count when they are useful. If this were reversed I’m sure many would have no problem pointing out how men have felt privileged to take freedoms with women’s bodies and Cooper being gay would certainly be tied into it (and this post would probably get backlinked to that post a few weeks ago about gay men’s sexism against women). Meaning that the violation would be readily acknowledged. But would those same people be so quick to acknowledge the history behind women taking freedoms with men’s bodies (and Cooper’s homosexuality would certainly tie… Read more »
I think the combination of people and their context would play into it. A comic like Zach Galifinakis (who is known for being weird, surreal and odd boundaries) and say, someone from the View (if they knew each other)..I can see him doing ridiculous things and not getting in trouble for it. But again, if they were strangers, if they’d not done shows together. What I think is coming up for me is that the intersections of context, race, gender, history …all play into how people react or don’t react. I’m not saying it’s a good thing to play act… Read more »
I think we mostly agree here. It’s just that it seems to me that this context you speak of is selectively acknowledged, along the lines of “Does this support my side?” to be exact.
I’m sure that you, if you saw Galifinakis does similar actions on national tv with a gay women that he was not a stranger to, would take all the contexts into account. I’m not convinced that everyone would.
I don’t know how I’d react. I”m in the process of looking through video now to see what I can find. I’m a little ticked that you think I’m trying to “side” things, rather than look at comedy and how it works. I’m well aware that there are a lot of people in the world who wouldn’t get or see or think about context, and that have no education around comedy, it’s history and dynamics. Most people think comedy is just…funny, but don’t see the structures, cues, etc that go into making comedy actual work, or the reasons comedy is… Read more »
No Julie I wasn’t trying to say that you would try to “side” things. In fact my last paragraph says that you would take all contexts into account. As I know you would not try to dicount certain contexts just because it tip the scales of the interpretation of an incident a certain way. For example I know you while you acknowledge male privilege I know that you wouldn’t try to say that Cooper’s male privilege means that this is not harassment or that having male privilege somehow means that these things don’t happen on an institutional scale. Sorry for… Read more »
“That ‘higher standard’ is what has given us Here Comes Honey Boo Boo;”
Hey now. I’ve only seen a few episodes, but does Mama ever sexually harass Honey Bear?
Besides, some of the most important examples in our lives are the negative examples. There is something to be said for entertainment that holds a mirror up to show us the worst parts of ourselves. Unless we’re now supposed to go back to the superbland TV shows from the 1950’s?
If Cooper himself were to object, either during or after the broadcast, I might think Griffin’s behavior constituted harassment. Instead, I see a comedienne engaging in the kind of bawdy humor people expect from her (including a demographic of gay fans she has a reputation for appealing to), and even if that doesn’t include CNN’s audience, it does include her friend Anderson Cooper, who knows from working this exact gig with her several times before that she is pretty much certain to cross the line of good taste as far as many viewers will be concerned. He deflected her physically… Read more »
I agree with you Marcus. The proof is not whether some website like Feministe would object or not, or whether the reversing of genders causes hypocritical stances by the same group, or whether we note a hypocritical stance on the reversal – the proof is the context of the situation and how the subjects interact historically and whether there is a complaint from Anderson on the behavior. The evidence is the evidence not a self-selected artifact of the evidence. I don’t like that the discourse on sexuality seems to be converging on the bar set up by extremists. I don’t… Read more »
“the proof is the context of the situation and how the subjects interact historically and whether there is a complaint from Anderson on the behavior.” RAINN estimates that 54% of rapes are not reported. for men raped by women that estimate would be higher. I don’t think you can say that something isn’t a crime or wrong just because someone hasn’t filed a formal complaint, which is really the argument. If Anderson Cooper had a problem with it, he would file a formal complaint. Unless it was staged, I think he complained sufficiently. I don’t have a problem with looking… Read more »
As always, Marcus is correct. It’s an individual situation which merits an individualized response.
“this is Rape Culture, plain and simple.” Nope. This is an individual incident. Rape Culture is a self-serving feminist myth, plain and simple.
@ Marcus “If Cooper himself were to object, either during or after the broadcast,” I thought he did. He held a no nudity sign in front of his genitals. Every time she kneel down, he did also. So it’s not rape if you don’t fight back hard enough? It’s not rape if you’re too embarrassed to report it or if you just want it to go away and put it behind you. “CNN itself,could pull the plug on it (or find Cooper a new sidekick)” I’ve heard this argument to. So it’s not sexual harassment if the bosses don’t mind.… Read more »
My impression was that Cooper was enjoying himself, based not on mind-reading, but on the same external signs of enjoyment that I have seen him exhibit with Griffin in the past, or even when he’s having a silly moment that doesn’t involve Griffin. It looks to me that rather than seeing Cooper experience discomfort and a sense of being harassed, and feeling sympathetic to that, what people are doing is projecting a sense of discomfort and harassment that they think he should feel, or that they would feel if they were in his place. This was not a newscast, it… Read more »
By the way, I’m not disputing whether Griffin’s conduct toward Cooper made many viewers uncomfortable. Obviously it did. I think in the titular question, though, that Cooper’s own impression is relevant to whether it was sexual harassment, and based on their history together, his reaction, and the power structure in place (he’s got the regular gig, she just comes to make him squirm and giggle on New Year’s), it didn’t look like he was sexually harassed in any serious sense of the phrase.
@Marcus…. “Instead, I see a comedienne engaging in the kind of bawdy humor people expect from her (including a demographic of gay fans she has a reputation for appealing to), and even if that doesn’t include CNN’s audience, it does include her friend Anderson Cooper, who knows from working this exact gig with her several times before that she is pretty much certain to cross the line of good taste as far as many viewers will be concerned.” Marcus I agree with you. Last year, she was undressing in front of him…..We need to be able to laugh about certain… Read more »
There is a world of difference between stripping and touching someone in a way they say they don’t want, repeatedly. I can go to a party and naked if I want. Poor judgement maybe, but not sexual harassment. The minute that I start touching someone else, ESPECIALLY after someone else repeatedly says no, that’s a problem. A big one.
Alyssa, have you ever playfully wrestled with someone you know and trust, and given them something like an “Aw, cut that out”, even while you’re not seriously bothered? Or laughed at someone you know well while they do something naughty, while at the same time telling them to quit because you know it’s naughty and could get them – or both of you – in trouble? I’d say there’s a world of difference between that kind of resistance – which is what it looks to me like Cooper offers to Griffin every New Years, including the “harassment” bit – and… Read more »
This is something I’ve been trying to teach my boys. That intonation and tone mean things as much as words do. They play the obligatory warrior type games and there is an important lesson in teaching them that “Oh stop it! You are killing me” delivered in a dramatic tone (all while continuing to pose and fight) is different than “CUT IT OUT NOW I MEAN IT” in a different tone of voice and withdrawing play. I also have them pick a “for real NO” word so that their Spartan or Roman warriors can use words like No, Stop, Flee… Read more »
Can you see why that might be problematic? Imagine a rapist saying, “well, she said NO, but it wasn’t that kind of no, it was the joking kind of no, it was the NO my brother says when we’re rough-housing, and my mom said that’s not the real kind of no.”
I can see why it might be problematic for rapists but I don’t see why its problematic for the vast majority of men who don’t rape.
I can see the problem with it, but I can also see the solution to it, both visible in the same post. Those kids aren’t learning to disregard no completely, they’re being given a useful tool to navigate some of the ambiguity human communication unfortunately has. By having them agree on a “for a real NO” word, you basically enable them to play pretend, and avoid breaking the illusion while still giving them an out if they need it. It’s very much akin to a safe-word in that respect, and I’d think that it enriches their ability to communicate about… Read more »
My sweetie and I use a safeword in lots of settings. If i say 5 or 6 times that I’m ready to go home and he doesn’t seem to get it, for instance, one stern look and a clearly stated “tomato!” gets the job done. Time to go. 😉
That’s another great use. I haven’t tried it much myself, but I’ve heard many times of people arranging code phrases ahead of time for conveying a desire to leave while minimizing the social awkwardness of it. Especially if it’s a social setting where you can’t whisper the codeword without drawing awkward attention, it’s handy to have some word, phrase, or even gesture to send the message without having to announce, “I’m serious – let’s go now!”
Yes! And I think the idea of safewords even for just rough play is a good idea. I usually associate safewords with kink, but as in your example, there are many good potential applications, including ones that help kids (or anybody) learn to intepret, deliver, and respect various kinds of “No”.
And the Stooges are a great example of “Low Comedy” which is a form that began back in ancient Greece, commonly using lewd gestures and physical comedy (involving pain and suffering) which moved through Commedia d’ell Arte, Vaudeville and most recently cartoons like Bugs Bunny or Road Runner or Tom and Jerry. Looking over Griffins performance, there is a lot of that referenced.
Yes and No. Mostly no. I don’t really do rough-housing and tickling like that. And when I do reach over and tickle my 2 year-old, as soon as she says “don’t do that,” I stop, and I thank her for telling me what she wants. My 7 year-old will ask first, if she feels like wrestling or something, which I love. So no, I don’t think that there is ever a situation in which it’s okay to be poking at someone, especially if they ask you to stop. That said, those are my relationships, and the people who have relationships… Read more »
The one thing I’ll say here is that I don’t think Griffin and Cooper were intending on normalizing the behavior, I think she was mocking and playing off the fact that “you know you want it” is wrong and outrageous and that what she was doing was outrageous and clearly (to her, to them, to me after watching it) calling out a ridiculous act, a piece of low comedy, of bawdy vaudeville and acting obnoxious. The up and down nearly seemed choreographed to me and the plastic paper (No swearing) seemed like a prop, because duh, she knows she can’t… Read more »
I can see it from both Alyssa’s and Julie and Marcus’s point of view. But I think this whole thing turns on gender and sex. If the relationship was the same and Cooper did it to Griffin, the title of this article wouldn’t be phrased as a question. It is also true from that it is not necessarily transgressive comedy if Cooper does it to Griffin, in fact it is not comedy at all. The Three Stooges grabbing each others’ crotches would not be funny either. So I think we have to deal with the fact that this can be… Read more »
Whoops, Julie, my post was written before reading your last one, though it ended up posting after your appeared. Looks like you addressed the comedy and the gender references. Didn’t mean to be redundant.
It depends on how Griffin reacted to Cooper. If she was like OMG THE GAY SILVER FOX IS HARASSING ME! loud and so forth, then we’d see it differently than if she shied away (something she doesn’t do) or if we read later that she was pissed. Hell, I’d think it was more transgressive and an interesting cultural commentary if Cooper got sexual with Kathy, though I suppose it would depend how. Honestly, if I saw that I’d be more confused because Cooper is playing the “straight man” no pun intended to Griffin’s Unruly Clown. Just like if it was… Read more »
What’s weird is that in all of it I didn’t see anything happening as sexual at all. Like nothing she did seemed to carry real sexuality with it. Or the underwear bit fromlast year. She is doing a “grotesque” send up of sex and portraying her as actually really un-sexual while being sexually vulgar. Kind of like the Greek comic vulgar character of Priapus, an actor would play him with a huge phallus and ugly mask. It’s like…SEX! but not sexy at all, and played for vulgar comic effect.
Yeah, Julie, I hear you. I think none of us who post to this blog can really decontextualize ourselves fully, we are probably more aware of all the crosscurrents than the average viewer. I certainly can’t take it out of the context of my experience outlined above. But I do worry about the average viewer, especially if they have experienced this at some point and realize later, “holy shit I was not ok with that and I didn’t react the way should have,” which I hear time and time and time again from women who experienced goofing around that goes… Read more »
I hear you. I have deep empathy for you and others who have been treated badly and not believed. I can easily see this as a trigger.
Whereas I can’t get to the place in which her talking about his genitals, asking if he wants a blowjob, repeatedly grabbing at and pretending to put her mouth on his genitals is free of sexuality. Is it “hot” and “sexy?” No. But is it sexual, yes.
It is the average viewer I worry about too. And not because of triggering (though, hello!) but because I don’t trust the average viewer to understand that this is not being condoned as an acceptable behavior pattern. Especially since it IS being condoned as an acceptable behavior pattern by virtue of their hosting such an event.
Alyssa (and Bob) – What I think I hear you saying is that the Griffin/Cooper bit brings up really negative feelings for you, due to a combination of past traumas, or maybe even just different comfort zones about what kind of touch and teasing is or isn’t okay with you. I respect that and sympathize, especially if it stirs traumatic stuff for you. The thing about triggers, though, is that the triggering action or person can be much more benign than it feels to you. That doesn’t diminish your response, but I don’t think it’s all that helpful to rail… Read more »
I was not triggered. I think of that as a very specific trauma response. I was – and still am – concerned that this kind of using sexuality and sexual transgression as a joke feeds a culture that allows us to take people sexuality and sexual boundaries as a joke. So that “no means no” has no meaning, because a lot of times, it’s “okay” and “funny” to ignore “no.” I am fine with all manner of sexuality, and a lot of it can be funny. I am a very bawdy person, in general. But I do not think it… Read more »
Thanks Marcus, I don’t think of it as a triggering thing, nor do I see it in black and white terms of right/wrong, ok/not ok. My main issue with it is how the general public accepts it because it is a woman doing it to a man. It is not any less right or wrong, but as far as comedy is concerned, it is somehow more funny. It is not just a double standard, it is a double standard composed of two standards as far apart from each other on the spectrum as they could be. I’m guessing but I… Read more »
Dang it. I change my mind. Marcus’ post was much more reasonable and sensible than my earlier one was. I think much of the interpretation boils down to what Cooper, the alleged victim, thinks or feels about her behavior. He might choose to look at the larger context or not. Whether or not something counts as harassment depends on how the target of it feels about it. At some level there needs to be some appreciation of the alleged victim as a person. (This doesn’t mean every allegation of sexual harassment is automatically true, just that if you think harassment… Read more »
@wellokay – I never thought I’d see the day, so I feel like I should go mark the date on my calendar as “The Day I Changed Someone’s Mind On GMP”. Thanks for making my day. 🙂
Alyssa, thank you for writing about this. I watched some of this and felt extremely uncomfortable. Your comments make sense.
Bob, what happened to you was wrong. Just flat out wrong. And I still don’t think we have a vocabulary for it, which saddens me. I was floored by what I saw between Kathy Griffin and Anderson Cooper, horrified that we all laugh at this as if it’s okay. It isn’t.
And then we don’t understand why people don’t respect – or even see – our boundaries. This is why. There are dozens such examples on any given day, I’m sure.
Thank you Alyssa. I know it was wrong. I still struggle with the language to describe it today. It wasn’t particularly traumatic but the presumed uphill battle about explaining how I felt about it is part of what keeps it inside. No cultural context. And lots of doubters.
When I was 21 I (a man) was groped by a stranger, (a woman grabbed and fondled my ass from behind), in a convenience store in Glens Falls, NY. I felt horrible and ashamed because…I actually felt horrible and ashamed. I hardly ever talk about it. As men we are just so programmed to believe that we must always “want it” and thus no one thought me anything but randomly lucky. She was a local, known to the cashier, and I was just passing through and felt I couldn’t make a fuss about it without endangering myself, but then I… Read more »
I think times are different now, but not nearly different enough. I’m sorry you went through that, and even more sorry that you felt you had no real way to define what happened.
Everyone needs to keep their damn hands to themselves. How disgusting.
Oh my god, so inappropriate. I felt very uncomfortable watching this. Poor Anderson! He handled it with as much class anyone could be expected to.
*as anyone
Even if she doesn’t think she needs to apologize to Anderson Cooper, she sure as hell needs to apologize to the legions of women who have been fighting for generations to end this kind of behavior in the workplace. I think there should also be an apology to the all the men out there that have been sexually harassed by a woman and had it played off in a manner very similar to what she did. Way to give a nation wide demonstration of proof that a woman harassing a man is okay or at the least not a big… Read more »
You are totally right! No gender necessary for an apology that should go to everyone who fights sexual harassment in any way! Or has been victim to it.
Any lawyers out there, please correct me if I’m wrong on this. Theoretically, she could be sued for sexual harassment even if Anderson Cooper refused to press charges. One can sue for sexual harassment on behalf of someone else even if the alleged victim doesn’t cooperate. In many jurisdictions, it depends on the evidence of the creation of a hostile work environment or repeated unwanted sexual advances, of which we have clear documentary evidence. If Cooper didn’t help with the suit, it probably wouldn’t be successful, but it is possible. Certainly the network has some grounds for firing her, even… Read more »