“The Wrath of The Feminists”: A Discussion of Masculinity, Gender, and Feminism

A Twitter discussion @jennpozner, @TMatlack, @hugoschwyzer @amandamarcotte @shiratarrant, @feministfather, @therealroseanne and others.

This tweetstream was originally published here.

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Comments

  1. Read some of the above debate after the facet. Thank you for tackling this, and allowing such a range of views. It is good to be reminded of the diversity of opinion and experience out there. Will join you next time.

  2. Why do the feminists always claim men have been bestowed with privilege throughout history?

    Old English Law actually gave women more privileges than it gave men. For example, if a woman spent all of her husband’s money then HE would go to debtors’ prison. Women who performed crimes while their husbands were present were given total impunity. That means if a woman assaulted another person while her husband was present then the victim’s testimony would be ignored.

    Don’t believe it?

    Go read the “Declaration of Sentiments” from the Seneca Falls Women’s Convention at Seneca Falls, New York in 1848. This fact was mentioned in it!

  3. “you mean closet case whiners, right?

    TheRealRoseanne5 days ago”

    It doesn’t suprise me that this woman made such an offensively ridiculous comment.

    Isn’t this the same woman who starred in a scene on her “Roseanne” program that promoted extreme sexual violence against men?

    If I recall correctly, the scene she starred in involved her kneeing a fitness instructure/shop owner in the testes for no other reason than he made a comment about her weight. It wasn’t out of self-defence, but out of anger.

    The question is, would she agree to perform in a scene where she is kneed in the vulva after saying something to a man that he doesn’t like?

    I have the feeling she would refuse. She’d probably say it’s embarrassing to promote vulval pain– for those who don’t know, a blow to the vulva can be quite painful, definitely more so than a blow to any other region of the female anatomy — because it’s of a seemingly sexual nature and portrays violence against women’s external genitalia as acceptable.

    Of course the feminists on here don’t see anything wrong with promoting violence against men’s generative organs for trivial reasons. They believe it’s okay for a woman to jeopardise a man’s endocrine system and generative organs should he dare to say something that makes them “feel” a bit upset. It doesn’t worry them that testicular abuse has been linked to post traumatic stress disorder, social anxiety and depression. They just tell those men to “man up” and “get over it” because that’s what men are “supposed to do”. But like all feminists, they don’t use the same logic when dealing with women who are victims. Instead, they would throw an almighty tantrum if a man were to kick a woman in the vulva for saying something he found offensive, even if the “kick” was choreographed on television and did not make contact with the recipient’s vulva!

    I have no time for these women. I’ll cheer loud and proud if some one gives each one of them a “good kick” in the vulva in real life. I’ll cheer twice as loud and proud if the kick is delivered by a “good man”.

    Afterall, they’d tell a man to just “man up” and “get over it” if he was the recipient of testicular abuse, so why should these women be treated any differently?

    They’re for equal treatment, no?

  4. One of the problems I noticed while reading this was that there is such a clear distinction between “us” and “them,” regardless from whom it came. There were so many mentions of women vs. men, men vs. MRA, feminists vs. men, feminists vs. MRA…the list goes on. I urge all of you to consider your speech and how you view these discussions. As Jenn Pozner mentioned, it shouldn’t be this hard for allies to have open dialogues, but it will only continue to be this difficult if everyone sees the conversations as coming from separate sides. In addition, don’t contrast “feminists” with “men,” because many men are feminists as well. These seem to be basic pointers, but I believe they’re easily forgotten. (If you believe I’ve made a glaring mistake in this, I’d like to hear it and continue my education of intersectionality.)

  5. As I read through this conversation, all I could think was “Wow, what a sniveling bunch of emotional cripples!”

  6. I read on Hugo’s blog that he has quit GMP.
    Due what i saw as the nature of the man that was revealed in the recollections of his past, and also in the most recent Feministe post involving hugo, I am extremely sceptical of his version of events.

    If the breech is too great between you all to be repaired.
    Will you be replacing Hugo with a feminist who holds similar views – i hope so.
    A diversity of article writers is good, and my eyes opened in ever wider amazement reading most of his articles eg. Who could forget his ‘accidental rape’ article that a one once-regular commenter accurately forecast would appear.

  7. When presented with logic, a woman can go emotional.
    The man has to flee.

    Welcome to the man-club Hugo, you just are not aware of it yet!

    (They will rip you apart at the rad-fems sites, just because you carry external genitalia)

    No amount of supplication will ever be enough for the would-be gyno masters.

    The only good man is a **** man?

    • Very few of you are using logic in this debate. It’s a perfect reflection of the “us vs. them” mentality prevalent throughout most feminist and men’s rights sites.

      The wage gap statistic was calculated by comparing the wages of all working men to all working women, regardless of how many hours they worked, or what fields they worked in. When adjusted for those factors, women at all levels earn about 96 cents on the dollar. Some calculations have found women’s wages to be 98 cents on the dollar. Thus, “75 cents on the dollar” is both invalid and useless.

      However, even those calculations don’t tell the whole story. Other studies have demonstrated that in any particular field, a woman needs a bachelor’s degree to earn as much as a man with a high-school diploma. Other studies, conducted in large metros like New York and D.C. have shown women under 30 to earn $1.02 for every dollar a man earns. Other studies have shown that female CEOs are compensated more highly than male CEOs, even though female CEOs are rarer. Still other studies have shown wage gaps as high as 80 cents on the dollar when male and female managers with identical credentials, experience, and years in the workforce are compared. Is any one statistic more valid than the other? That depends on what you want to say with your statistics.

      However, anecdotal evidence is not “useless,” as some claim. One anecdote may be. But many anecdotes taken together may provide a clearer picture, as long as the anecdotal evidence is collected in a fair way, and isn’t cherry picked. I’m a woman who works in high tech. On the whole, I outearn most men my age by up to 25K, and I even outearn many men who are a decade or more my senior. Within my own profession, too, I outearn many men because I’m a manager and they are not. However, when compared with male managers in my profession, I sometimes earn less. At times, this has been because I’m a younger manager, and therefore less experienced. At other times, my gender was clearly the problem – like at the company I started at, where a man with equivalent skills, but less experience and only a high school diploma, made $4/hour more than I did. And at the company I resigned after a long tenure, where only female employees, just as senior and qualified as the male employees, had to “pay their dues” as contractors responsible for their own taxes and healthcare, while the men were hired outright, and where the men all got new, modern computers and software, while the women were assigned secondhand computers with outdated or “student” copies of older software. (Yes, I worked longer days than 65% of the men, and equally long days as the other 35%.)

      I also worked at a position where every male tech director was ultimately fired by the female executive he reported to. The revolving door that was this position did not end until the director slot was filled by a woman. At that time, the female executive “cleaned house,” replacing male employees with female employees. Isolated, my experiences are nothing more than tales of individual sexist bosses (male or female), but if we collected anecdotes and found a pattern developing among them, we can begin to speculate about correlation and causation.

      The reality of the gender wage gap is simple: there is no concrete answer. You can make statistics and anecdotes say anything you want. It’s more useful to look at patterns of bias in either direction within specific professions, and especially, at specific companies. We have the power to take action against biased companies today, by writing negative reviews about our experiences with them on Glassdoor.com, and spreading the word as we network. The free market, not the government, is the best arbiter of fairness in many cases – as the biased companies will develop a negative reputation, and their egalitarian competitors will enjoy recruiting talent away from them.

      • And to the guy who said women can’t use italics, let me be the first to say that basic HTML skills are not very impressive anymore. If you can create a slick interface that degrades gracefully on older browsers, renders well on mobile phones, and uses validated, semantic HTML/CSS/JavaScript, then I’ll be impressed. That’s the kind of guy (and gal) I’m looking to hire. But the italics tag? Nah. The italics tag is depreciated anyway. The new markup is “em” in brackets.

      • Someone being rational suggesting that women are neither perfect nor hopelessly flawed.

        “The reality of the gender wage gap is simple: there is no concrete answer. You can make statistics and anecdotes say anything you want. It’s more useful to look at patterns of bias in either direction within specific professions, and especially, at specific companies.”

        Thank you for being constructive.

    • Sure enough I was right.
      The rad-fems did turn on Hugo, within 48 hours of my writing that post.

      P.S>
      It saddens me so very greatly when the feminists are saddened,but my sadness is so much deeper than their sadness.

  8. Things Are Bad says:

    Ugly women are hilariously sexist.

  9. ….with all of this talking wouldn’t the wise thing to do be to do whats healthy for yourself and those around you? stickinging to a holistic course and making an enviornment around you that promotes the same… would that not be the sollution. then all of us would need only to worry about defining what is healthy.

  10. “Imagining the POV of someone you’re in conflict with is bare minimum of being a good person, yes.” -Amanda Marcotte

    “I’ve been sort of casually listening to CNN blaring throughout the waiting area and good fucking god is that channel pure evil. For awhile, I had to listen to how the poor dear lacrosse players at Duke are being persecuted just because they held someone down and fucked her against her will—not rape, of course, because the charges have been thrown out. Can’t a few white boys sexually assault a black woman anymore without people getting all wound up about it? So unfair.” -Amanda Marcotte

  11. I dare say that in this conversation on gender issues is very disingenuous deceptive intentionally misleading and obnoxious in pretense as it is a discussion on gender issues which most of us who are not of the most deluded post-modernist schools of deconstructionism recognize as by nature requiring the elements of essentialism in the form of defining the male-female genders without which I ask:

    What is the meaning of a” feminism” and “gender issues” that one speaks of without a definition of gender etc. so as to continue the ephemeral elitist debate of American “feminism” here which failed to pass the Equal Right Amendment, nor properly addressed nor acquires any of the basic rights which those bad bad Europeans accomplished years ago merely because they specifically avoided such pretentious debates as these, to secure in their positive self-images of being while reactionary America squandered opportunities merely to satisfy its inferior political basis of upper middle class nonsense (completely alienated from the mainstream of society so that we can look back to Nixon and his support of Affirmative action, Legal Services as the “Golden Age” of what I call barbarism).
    An America so backward and reactionary almost any European is more progressive and advanced.

  12. I dont disagree with you..

Trackbacks

  1. [...] The Twitter discussion in response to Tom Matlack’s Being a Dude is a Good Thing has been fascinating. Much of it is archived here, summarized in the unhelpfully titled “The Wrath of the Feminists.” [...]

  2. [...] on twitter my friend Brennan linked to an article that linked to this twitter stream. I don’t recommend you read the whole thing a) because it’s very long, [...]

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  4. [...] for updates on this topic.Powered by WP Greet Box WordPress PluginThe Good Men Project has been a real sh*tshow lately. The site’s founder, Tom Matlack, found himself labeled an ALLY FAIL by radical [...]

  5. [...] neerhaalde als vijandige vrouwen die mannen verbaal in elkaar zouden slaan. De site sprak van The Wrath of the Feminists, een taalgebruik waarbij apocalyptische beelden opdoemen, van schuimbekkende dragonders die met [...]

  6. [...] from his position as editor and contributor to the website). The debate started after an intense Twitter back-and-forth which was posted on GMP under the title “The Wrath of The Feminists”. Schwyzer [...]

  7. [...] However, there is an element of humor to this story, as a clearly clueless Roseanne Barr rises from the morass to take poorly-aimed potshots at men through Twitter. [...]

  8. [...] blow-up between GMP founder Tom Matlack and a number of well-known feminist writers. (For more, see here, and here, and [...]

  9. [...] I simply wanted to have a conversation with Hugo about it first 2) The name of another post, “The Wrath of the Feminists”  came from Jenn Pozner herself — if it is “disrespectful and dismissive” [...]

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  11. [...] decide to have these tough conversations over Twitter is beyond me, but it happens.  Recently a highly-publicized conversation took place on Twitter between The Good Men Project founder Tom Matlack and some feminist and anti-racist women and men [...]

  12. [...] Marcotte, Jenn Pozner and a few others joined in this row with Tom and Hugo in a now-very-famous Twitter war where I believe a lot of people acted in ways that were not productive, or even healthy. No, I [...]

  13. [...] won’t write about the event in great detail here (you can read about it here and here and all over the GMP site) other than to say that articles about the presumption male [...]

  14. [...] decide to have these tough conversations over Twitter is beyond me, but it happens.  Recently a highly-publicized conversation took place on Twitter between The Good Men Project founder Tom Matlack and some feminist and anti-racist women and men [...]

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