A man asks Josie and Eli how he can tell his friend that she’s setting her sights too high with the men she crushes on.
Originally appeared at She Said He Said
Dear Sexes: I have a friend who constantly tries to date WAY out of her league. I wish we lived in a world where that wasn’t true, but we don’t, and it is. After two years of dealing with her non-stop heartbreak and drama, I just can’t take it anymore. I desperately want to tell her that she needs to, in the short term anyway, “lower her aim.” The problem is, I’m a guy, and I’m afraid it will sound insulting no matter what I say. Is there any way to clue her in without losing her as a friend?
She Said: It sounds less like she has a problem with dating out of her league as she does falling for unavailable guys. There’s something about the unavailable guy (or girl)… The thrill of the chase, the fantasy of the conquest… There’s such a huge ego boost in getting attention from that special someone who can’t/doesn’t/won’t give you what you need. You’re like a starving man gobbling up crumbs. It feels good for a moment, but you’re still starving in the end.
This is crazily unhealthy! And you’re seeing it in front of your eyes. And that’s where you start with your friend. Tell her what you’re seeing, and how it makes you feel. Don’t make it about “leagues” or other outward values. Make it about the real issue, and that’s her interest in unavailable men. Ask her what makes her think she isn’t worthy of the real thing. Ask her why she thinks a guy’s looks are so important. Ask her if she feels like guys should feel the same way about women (but don’t make her feel ugly, just ask rhetorically, about all women), and if they only dated outwardly beautiful women what she would think of them. It’s no different if a woman is shallow than if a man is, but my gut feeling is that this is more of an intimacy issue than anything else.
He Said: I wish we had a bit more information here, because I love the topic of your question. People’s poor choices in dating is always a good place to start. But how are these guys out of your friend’s league? Are they too cool? Too rich? Too famous? Too attractive? These are really rhetorical questions, because there’s no such thing as someone being out of your league (unless… is your friend incredibly ugly and extremely mean?).
It’s cliche, but it’s true – beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. I’m no Brad Pitt, I’m not a millionaire, I ain’t a rocket scientist, and I don’t have a 12 inch penis. Still, I’ve always dated very beautiful women. For the most part, these women were all smart, successful, and very pretty (at least I thought so). How is this possible? How is this NOT possible?!? Your league is what you make it. Be kind, be confident, be enthusiastic, be perceptive, be open, be sincere – you’ll be doing just fine (in life and dating).
Now, if your friend is going after guys who make themselves unavailable or inaccessible, that’s something different. Or, if your friend has unrealistically high expectations of men in the dating world, then that’s something she needs to address. If you want to help her with her love life, remind her to go after dudes who are single (for starters), interested in her, treat people well, and are open to a relationship (or whatever your friend is looking for). Color me jaded, but I still think this is all a plot to limit her choices, until she has to date YOU!
Photo—Bossy businessman from Shutterstock
About She Said He Said
Sorry to all men for engaging in a tired stereotype, but tell me I’m not the only one out there wondering if the letter writer has a crush on his female “friend.” Is this a case of his wanting her to lower her sights…onto him? Perhaps he has a very specific one-man league in mind….
I am the letter writer, and I can assure you that I have no crush on the friend in question (I’m actually happily in my own relationship).
She has two issues:
First, she uses online dating sites extensively, yet she has a pear-shaped body that doesn’t really come across in her online profile picture, which is current and not remotely touched up, but only shows her shoulders and face. As a result, you can look at the picture and get an idea about a certain level of “attractiveness” when the reality is…very different. She’s my friend, and it’s painful to talk about this, but I believe in pragmatism, and frankly I can’t really deal with her going on another 2-dozen failed dates each of which is more crushing than the last.
The second issue is that she’s really emotionally immature. She never had a real dating life in high school and only got into online-dating during her senior year of undergrad. As a result, she’s 23 but dealing with issues that most of us dealt with when we were 16. As an example, she actually decided, on a first date, to try and engage a guy she had never met before in an in-depth discussion on “personal boundaries.” Sure, this is a great conversation to have with a romantic partner…but on a first date with a guy you’ve never met…?
I hoped that she would somehow come to the necessary conclusions on her own…but two years later it often seems like she hasn’t picked up on much at all, which is the only reason I’ve even considered intervening (there really has been non-stop heartbreak and the attendant loss in self esteem).
I do also want to thank the sexes for the advice they gave, maybe it’s a good idea to focus on “inaccessible” instead of “league” I’m just worried that, while re-framing might make the conversation easier it would also be less honest…
“The second issue is that she’s really emotionally immature. She never had a real dating life in high school and only got into online-dating during her senior year of undergrad. As a result, she’s 23 but dealing with issues that most of us dealt with when we were 16.”
There are others in this same boat. >< I'd go on practice dates with her if for no other reason than experience!
Thanks for clearing that up and giving some more detail. I can see how frustrating it must be to see her walk right into disappointment over and over again.
I would separate the appearance issue from the maturity/experience issue.
Whether or not her online photo does her justice is just one of those issues that men she meets online will face no matter what her “shape” is. If they are disappointed upon meeting her in person, that is really their problem, not so much a question of being in her league or not. I can see a friend suggesting that she may be accidentally misleading men she meets online when she describes herself, if that’s a problem. If she embraced her shape and put it out there that she liked the body just the way it’s shaped, then there’d be a lot less potential for disappointment.
Furthermore, saying she needs to aim lower appearance-wise because of her own appearance is not really all that helpful. Do you think she won’t get her heartbroken by slightly uglier men? It would be great, I suppose, if everyone only matched up with people of equal attractiveness and therefore that’s the path to happy relationships, but it’s not that simple, really. Are you thinking that she needs to match up with someone else who can’t be totally picky?
The maturity/lack of experience/desperation sounds like a more serious turn-off for men she meets online. That being said, perhaps if it’s a question of learning the ropes then this is how she learns what she’s looking for and learns how to find what she’s looking for. Presumably you learned the hard way about dating and broken hearts and crushes and unrealistic expectations at a younger age than she did, but I tend to think she may just need an opportunity to learn those things later than you did.
This maturity issue also seems hard to address with “stay in your own league” advice. Is the league-based advice to look for men who are equally immature, desperate, and poorly boundaried?
It may not be your role as her friend to straighten her out by telling her she’s boxing above her weight, but more to make some observations from your perspective and then let her make her own choices. Are you feeling especially protective of her for some reason?
The problem is not leagues per se.
Its about honesty.
If she won’t post a picture that accurately reflects what she looks like in real-life, she needs to do something about her looks. It all comes out in the wash when guys walk away after a date and don’t call. She should be honest or change.
As for the immaturity- it might be a good idea simply to have a talk about general dating etiquette. If she sounds desperate/crazy on a date only the desperate and the crazy will continue dating her.
I see this as such a commonplace problem as to be almost invisible. Don’t most people you run across think they deserve a much better mate than their actual qualities (looks, status, personality, etc.) warrant? Doesn’t everyone secretly believe “I deserve the best”?
Eh I don’t really see this from guys at all. Most of the guys I know want the same exact thing: a pretty girl who is smart, loyal and kind. I really don’t think that’s a lot to ask for. But the girls I see seem to always expect a guy to follow some set script that she has mapped out (do x, don’t do y) In my limited experience women seem to have their sights set MUCH MUCH higher than men.
This “dating out of your league” thing is fairly dated. The attraction is there or it’s not. Kinda reminds me of other discussions about religion, politics and music. Either it works for you or it doesn’t.
I see this a lot and I don’t really understand it. Girls who aren’t very attractive at all seem to think they can get any guy they want. It makes me think of that survey on OKCupid where women rated something like 80% of the men as “less attractive than average.” The weird part is that I see girls who aren’t attractive with the same standards as drop dead gorgeous women. That’s just insane. I think a lot of women probably just hit a wall and settle for men they think they’re “too good” for.
“It sounds less like she has a problem with dating out of her league as she does falling for unavailable guys. ”
I thought this was interesting because it suggests that if the guys were “available” that she could “get” them. I’m a single guy and “available” but I certainly wouldn’t settle for most of the girls I see. So many are overweight and unattractive but have GIANT egos.
This is common with all kinds of self-perception. We all fool ourselves. I’ve read somewhere that 90% of drivers think they are “above average” drivers. Probably about 80% of people think that they are above average intelligence, above average looks, above average fitness, above average work ethic, etc.
Theoretically, it could be mathematically true that 80% are above average, depending on the distribution. If there were 20% of the population who were completely, utterly repulsive, five times uglier than average and everyone else was more or less pretty, then it could work. If a small number of drivers get into an accident every single day, then you could have 90% above average drivers. If the distribution is pretty even, though, which is much more likely, it doesn’t work that way.
Think about the message to the guy that she has a relationship with once she lowers her sights. He will now be “the one she went out with once she stopped being so picky.” Or, “My friend told me not to pursue such good-looking men, and I took his advice, and that’s why I’m with ____.” Hardly very flattering. It may not be very flattering to your own partner — “Don’t shoot for someone who’s too attractive for you; I didn’t aim too high, and look who I ended up with….”
It’s also extremely common that when someone suggests someone else is being too picky, the person giving advice is in a long-term committed relationship. Much more common for attached people to give advice to single people, and much, much rarer for someone out in the dating world to tell another single person not to be so picky.
I don’t know, man. I know I’m not a great driver. I know I’m not the most jacked up dude. I know I’m not the next Einstein. I think it has less to do with an inflated sense of self and more to do with extremely high expectations of self.
I think it boils down to quantity vs quality. Most guys I know will go after girls who are below them because they just want a girl, (almost) any girl. Most women I know will only go after guys who are above them.
It seems like a completely different mindset. Quantity vs quality.
I think “below average” has just become a synonym for “fairly bad” and most people don’t think much about what it really means.
I think you raise a good but really sad point here. Namely that someone can’t really choose to lower their standards without feeling like they got the short end of the stick. If they really feel like they “deserve” the absolute best partner, then they won’t ever feel satisfied or even lucky with anyone who doesn’t meet that standard.
Is it any wonder why so many women file for divorce?
“Much more common for attached people to give advice to single people, and much, much rarer for someone out in the dating world to tell another single person not to be so picky.”
I think that’s an insightful comment. But it goes all manner of different ways. I see a lot of single people trying to give advice to the married ones with problems. The women giving advice to men and vice versa. And of course, advice columnists in general. We all think we know and we do and we don’t.
We’ve all lived and learned. Made mistakes and want to share them with other people. Our friends, our families, our spouses, our kids. I see this in my personal life. I see it, surprisingly, even more often in my professional life as well; with more experienced and well regarded people making a point of sharing their mistakes… because they’re mistakes. It’s like an instant badge of honesty to say, “Look at how I fucked up. Try not to do it too.” If I was going to make an issue of it, maybe I’d go that way: this reminds me of a time I really fucked up. Not you, me. And let her draw her own conclusions.
Maybe it’s just me, but whoever listens to advice? I’m probably not better at it than anyone else.
For anybody interested, Jimmy is referring to this http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/
“As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh.”
“Females of OkCupid, we site founders say to you: ouch! Paradoxically, it seems it’s women, not men, who have unrealistic standards for the “average” member of the opposite sex.”
In all fairness, when you’re talking about online dating sites. So these are women who refused to date everyone in the real world who was willing to come up to them and ask them out. You do have a bit of a selection bias there.
Not necessarily. A lot of people are trying online dating now, and I don’t think it’s because they refuse to date anyone in the real world who was willing to come up to them and ask them out. I mean I live in a city where no one makes eye contact and saying hi to a stranger is met with suspicion. I’m on a work trip now and it’s really startling how nice people are to strangers here, I’m just not used to it. So where I live you don’t just walk up to people and ask them out and there are many people online dating.
If she is clueless about appropriate conversation on a first date (ie., making cringe-worthy comments), maybe she should just work on herself and just being friends with people (of both sexes) so that she gets a clue! To take the pressure off, maybe she could just try a biking club or a boot camp workout class at the local gym so that she can just hang out with guys (and girls) in a casual atmosphere….she gets to know people and finds out what turns people on (and off) and gets a great workout (and evens out her pear-shaped figure)…
Or take some classes and work on a degree (she sounds very immature!)…..
Leave her to it. Everyone needs to go through their own learning curve and of course there are some that never learn. She might be one of them. I’ve known women like this and frankly they were single at 23 and they are single at 36. Everyone of them had their own issues to deal with, issues they weren’t actually willing to face so they chose people who would never love them back. She might be the same.
Personally I don’t believe that ‘dating out of one’s league’ is a dated or irrelevant term however I feel it applies mostly to women. Lots of hot women date less physically attractive men that have other things going for them, success at work, status, money. Women are less visual than men so as much as that will piss some men off and they will write those women off as being superficial, they are taking the easy way out. Why is it not ok for a woman to be incredibly turned on by a successful man who kicks arse at his job the way some men will get turned on by a nice pair of ta tas? Horses for courses.
On the other hand I don’t see a whole lot of good looking men dating ugly women. Like I said, men are visual. For those that date ‘below them’, it’s such a shock for everyone (men and women) that people wonder what is wrong with him. Think Hugh Jackman, who is suspected of being gay because his wife is older and less attractive.
For those men who say that men go for quantity over quality or will take any woman they can get, I think you are missing out on a lot of fun. Get with the program. If you’re not all that good looking work on other aspects of your life that make you equally appealing to a woman. Be funny, do well at your job, work out and get a great body, be sporty, be interesting, be adventurous.
This is 2012. If you want success, go be successful.
If an ugly dude said he wanted a perfectly toned blond with great curves and a dollish face, he’d be laughed at (and with good reason). So who why do women with no success of their own to speak of think that they have a right to a successful man? They didn’t earn that.
That’s before you even get to the problems of the heavy-duty class stratification this society has undergone in the last twenty years or the 30+ years of wage stagnation men have endured. So yeah, men are really going to resent the fact that women go for men who got their ‘success’ through family connections, and not through talent, intelligence or ambition. No matter how you dress it up, not many people in America get ahead by ‘kicking ass at their job!’. That’s a faded dream, if it was ever real at all.
“If you’re not all that good looking work on other aspects of your life that make you equally appealing to a woman. Be funny, do well at your job, work out and get a great body, be sporty, be interesting, be adventurous.”
I wish this worked, but it doesn’t. I don’t even consider myself that unattractive, and I have a lot going for me. Even still, I am serially unable to get a date.
Dude… from what I’ve read you post on here you’re some kind of fucking genius. That’s awesome, that’s a level of intelligence I wish I had. Here’s the thing, you could get more chicks just using your brain than I can. If I was you, I’d study game, I’d read books, I’d go to seminars, and I’d learn how to pick up chicks like a pro.
You probably play chess right? or some other game? It’s the same exact thing. It’s just a game dude.
Actually, genius is so far in my rear view mirror, I can’t even see it!
It’s funny you mention it as being a game. I have a great deal of trouble viewing some things as a game. I know that I should view life as a game, but I have a great deal of trouble doing so. There is a disconnect between knowing something on an intellectual level and believing it on an emotional level. That is, in my opinion, the most frustrating part of it all. I often joke that I’d be so much better if I were a sociopath because then emotions would not interfere with my intellectual abilities. It is so difficult to have all the answers before you and be wholly unable to utilize them.
First off, it aint easy to remove yourself from the equation and consider it all coldly and methodically. It’s damn near impossible for me. But it’s all mental, and I figure a dude like you is always dyin for a mental challenge.
“It is so difficult to have all the answers before you and be wholly unable to utilize them.”
baby steps, bro. Think of the samurai who would enter battle wishing that they would die, they had no fear.
“For those men who say that men go for quantity over quality or will take any woman they can get, I think you are missing out on a lot of fun. Get with the program. If you’re not all that good looking work on other aspects of your life that make you equally appealing to a woman. Be funny, do well at your job, work out and get a great body, be sporty, be interesting, be adventurous.”
Eh? I think you’re missing the goal here. The thing about “quantity vs quality” is that chasing quantity doesn’t preclude you from meeting quality women. I’ll have sex with almost any woman but I still pull hot chicks. The whole game is about being appealing to women! How do you think we ever get laid?
The point is I’d rather bang 20 chicks in a year than bang 1 chick. And that 1 chick is probably still gonna be one of those 20.
A lot of people seem more interested in stating their own value judgements on the word ‘league’ than they are in actually trying to help…
So, what I hear some people saying is that unattractive people should just know their place and only seek out people as attractive as they are. That unattractive people haven’t earned the right to approach or date attractive people or don’t have the right to get their hopes up. Perhaps even that it’s arrogant to seek relationships with attractive people when you are unattractive.
Wow. Just, wow.
It must be a tremendous hardship for the attractive people to have so much unwanted attention from us unworthy ugly people. Perhaps we should stick to our own kind and not go out in the daylight, because we may block the view that the pretty people have of each other. (Yes, I am feeling a little defensive.)
Anyway, I suggest looking at things from another angle. Maybe the friend is getting her hopes up too high and has unrealistic expectations for her dating life. At the same time, though, she’s getting something from these online dating relationships (“relationships” in a very broad sense). Maybe you don’t see what she’s getting because she only mentions her complaints, but I would not assume that she’s doing all this with nothing to show for it but heartache. And there has to be some risk of heartache or else she’s not really putting herself out there.
A related question: is the assumption here that 2 years of online dating is more than enough time to find a good match, so she must be doing something wrong? Some people do everything very well, do everything “right” and they go for much longer without finding a good match.
“So, what I hear some people saying is that unattractive people should just know their place and only seek out people as attractive as they are. That unattractive people haven’t earned the right to approach or date attractive people or don’t have the right to get their hopes up. Perhaps even that it’s arrogant to seek relationships with attractive people when you are unattractive.”
I think you missed the point here. We aren’t talking about unattractive *men*.
A guy could be hideous but as long as he has other stuff going for him (money, power, fame) he can still get beautiful women. We’re talking about unattractive women chasing men who are out of their league (men who are probably rich and powerful).
For women beauty really is of prime importance and if you’re unattractive, then you gotta lower your standards. Just like with men, money and power are of prime importance, if you’re not making much money, then you gotta lower your standards. Money doesn’t mean much if you’re a woman and beauty doesn’t mean much if you’re a guy.
The thing is, (from what I’ve seen) guys seem to get this. Guys will chase women who are out of their league but they will also go after women in their league. Women (the ones my age in my city at least) don’t seem to get this. Of course the hot ones can have high standards, but their unattractive friends seem to adopt the same high standards and just get used by guys who laugh about it over breakfast the next morning.
“It must be a tremendous hardship for the attractive people to have so much unwanted attention from us unworthy ugly people.”
It’s not about that. It’s about there being a lot of lonely guys at their level who aren’t getting any attention from them, while those unattractive women fruitlessly chase guys out of their league and just get used.
I read the original question, and also the anonymous comment purporting to be the original asker who is clarifying the situation. This reply also addresses the anonymous comment.
It doesn’t seem that the problem is that the friend is dating out of her “league”, rather that she does not post full body photos in her ads, and that the asker is passing judgment on her “pear” body shape. What would lowering her aim be? I am assuming she wants to date conventionally attractive people and the poster does not believe she should or can?
I find it strange that she is friends with someone who believes that her “pear-shape” is a problem, to wit: “you can look at the picture and get an idea about a certain level of “attractiveness” when the reality is…very different”. This rankles. It seems that rather her problem if she has one, is that she does not feel very good about herself and is drawn to people who will reinforce that for her.
As a friend, I would encourage you to address the photograph issue, and encourage her to feel confident that her body should not be hidden and that there are people for whom that shape is the ideal. In fact, whether she is fat or not, you can (sensitively) bring up the option of BBW dating sites, where that body shape reigns supreme.
I would also suggest speed-dating. It is inexpensive, and it would address the experience issue, and the shortness of each interaction would curb the foot-in-mouth problem.
It also sounds like you are experiencing burnout, and for that I think it should suggested she turn to websites specifically about dating, with forums she can read and contribute to.
Lastly, she is 23, and while she doesn’t have her dating life figured out, isn’t that OK at 23? It sounds like your friend is a late-bloomer with self-esteem issues. I think the best thing would be for you to encourage her to present herself in a more confident and honest way.
“If you want to help her with her love life, remind her to go after dudes who are single (for starters), interested in her, treat people well, and are open to a relationship (or whatever your friend is looking for).” – Pretty much yeah, what He Said.
Out of high school, I always thought the concept of “leagues” was a bit ridiculous. Maybe I just hang out with really awesome people, or something, but I don’t know anyone who actually thinks like that. Yeah, we’ve all got preferences…and those preferences are wicked diverse. Some people put more importance on financial success, or physical attributes, or personality traits…and it’s all just on an individual basis.
I mean the closest thing to worrying about whether someone’s “in your league” that I’ve experienced is with one-night-stands, and then you may worry if you’re physically attractive enough to pick a certain person up. But outside of that very specific instance…yeah no one really thinks like that.
““If you want to help her with her love life, remind her to go after dudes who are interested in her.”
Best advice yet, but it won’t work. Women tend to like guys who *aren’t* interested in them, it’s what game is all about, and it works really really well.
“But outside of that very specific instance…yeah no one really thinks like that.”
You may not, but many people do. I know I’ve been embarrassed to take some girls out on dates because I was “out of their league by a mile”. Other women would give me strange looks while I was out with them and my friends would make fun of me if I brought them home. Trust me when I say that “the league” is very real.
Okay but “game” and all that nonsense is about picking a woman up and sleeping with her, yes? It’s about a one-nighter. I mentioned that’s the only time I’ve ever seen people actually worry about what league they’re in. When it comes to, like, proper dating and relationships, though…I’ve not seen anyone actually think like that.
I’d also be interested in seeing how much all the stuff about “game” actually works. Or whether women just pick up on the fact that a guy is applying “game,” and is therefore interested, and so therefore responds accordingly. i.e. I’m guessing “game” is just as obvious as normal flirting.
I couldn’t tell you as I’m not a chick, but I see friends of mine applying it and it works phenomenally well. I think the point is that it’s not obvious at all, otherwise it wouldn’t work.
And I think most relationships I see tend to start as one-night-stands.
“I think the point is that it’s not obvious at all, otherwise it wouldn’t work.”
Well now, here’s a problem with that logic. Consider the following possibility: A hypothetical PUA has been told that women only sleep with men they think aren’t interested in them. So he uses all of his PUA techniques to “convince” her to sleep with him by pretending he’s not interested. Meanwhile this hypothetical woman actually is interested in men who are interested in her. So when she sees this PUA using his techniques (and recognizes that he’s interested) she responds accordingly so that he knows she’s interested. He counts this as a success, thinking he ‘tricked’ this woman into sleeping with him. But he didn’t actually trick her at all…because she recognized his ‘techniques’ for what they were, just never said…because that would be a little too blunt.
This is why ‘game’ and all that piss me off. It assumes that women have no agency or decision making powers of their own. It assumes that they’re to be tricked into having sex. Which is all nonsense. Women who go out to a club looking to hook up will hook up. Women looking to not hook up, won’t. And women aren’t the gullible idiots to be tricked in to choosing you (over someone else) all because you’ve got ‘game.’ Not to mention, pretending to be someone your not just to pick up is really quite manipulative.
As for the last bit, that most relationships start as one-night-stands…well that’s most certainly not always the case. I think that’s dependant on where you are and the people you are around.
It’s not quite as black and white as that. It’s more like giving the impression that:
“‘yea I’m interested in you and I would totally f*ck you, but I could take it or leave it. You’re nothing special. I’m gonna tease you and f*ck around with you a little bit and then just walk away and talk to that other girl because I really don’t care about you.”
It’s not about “tricking” women so much as it’s about applying the tried and true method of playing hard to get. Women seem to love a challenge and hate when you approach them honestly and directly.
“Not to mention, pretending to be someone your not just to pick up is really quite manipulative.”
Yea, it totally is. But if you took a cursory glance at how most young women treat men you would find that this “manipulation” pales to a sheet. And at the end of the day, who cares? If women have set it up so that they have to be manipulated in order to have sex, then so be it. I mean by their behavior you would think they love being manipulated, f*cked, and then never talked to again.
“Women seem to love a challenge and hate when you approach them honestly and directly.”
This is extremely offensive, Jimmy. Please read my other post.
Also, I think it’s quite clear that HUMAN BEINGS in general love a challenge and lose interest in partners that they could get easily.
That very sentence I quoted from you is something I have heard countless times from so-called evolutionary theories to describe men! But as I said above, I don’t believe it’s men — or women. It’s PEOPLE.
People love a challenge.
It may indeed be evolutionary for us to want the best partner available and that makes us susceptible to manipulations, such as others playing hard to get in order to make us believe they’re highly valued as partners when that may not be the case.
“As for the last bit, that most relationships start as one-night-stands…well that’s most certainly not always the case. I think that’s dependant on where you are and the people you are around.”
I think the main factor here is age.
How old are you? Like an age range? I don’t mean to pry, but you did bring it up.
I’m in my twenties.
From what I hear the dating game is *very* different for young people today. Sex on a first date is the norm and one night stands are business as usual. Maybe this is just my experience but I think I’ve only had one relationship where we didn’t have sex before we became exclusive.
So why bring those girls out if they’re only an embarrassment to you? I for one would be horrified to find eventually find out I was the mockery of the night when I was so far below you.
I’ve dated girls that I liked. Maybe she was overweight, or maybe she had scars, or maybe she was bald, but I liked her because she had a beautiful smile, or a spunky attitude, or huge doe eyes.
I would get embarrassed when other girls would try to shame me by saying things like “you can do better” or “why her?”
For a while I would defend my choices and just tell them “I like her” but then over time I realized they would never stop. So I don’t bring girls out anymore who I know women will shame me for dating, even if I like them.
I think it’s sad that you let people have so much say over what you do, and that you give up on people that you are genuinely interested in and instead listen to people that you’ll probably never see again.
“Women tend to like guys who *aren’t* interested in them, it’s what game is all about, and it works really really well.”
PEOPLE like partner who aren’t interested i them.
Why do you think there are pick-up artists out there selling books entitled “date women out of your league” or “date only 9′s and 10′s even if you’re average”? (I’ve seen these!)
How do this authors even make a living?
Because PEOPLE do want a partner that is out of their league.
Fortunately, though, most of us realize that’s not practical or even important. The important thing is finding someone that we tolerate and hopefully makes us happy.
And no, it doesn’t work well generally as the OP’s friend is still single and I personally don’t see her finding anyone. Not until she starts focusing on what’s important: her connection to someone.
To the friend that wrote the letter, I think you should concern yourself less with what *you* personally think is in and out of her league physically and maybe help her more with the emotional aspects of dating. If you really really want to help her with her pictures, offer to help her with her profile, have her pick out some pictures she likes of herself, then from the pictures she picked, make your suggestion about what would work best.
Perhaps even get your current gf to talk to her or a mutual female friend. Talk to her about her expectations in men and dating, about what you did when you dated. Advise her on good first date conversations and not such good first date conversations from a male’s perspective.
I don’t think it’s your place to determine who is in her league physically because I think physical attraction can cross “leagues”. I am also in the camp that leagues as adults is silly. People have strengths and weaknesses in many aspects of their lives and no one can say without a doubt who is in someone’s league just based on visual appearance. I see many different couples in real life and not all the women are super hot perfect babes.
Hell I even remember in high school getting made fun of for the chicks I was dating and having to defend my choices. In my experience women are just as bad a men when it comes to shaming you for dating someone “below” you. And I can only imagine how it made those poor girls feel.
As for “game” it just basically sounds like teasing girls and making yourself a challenge to them. I don’t think it’s overt at all.
Wow – Less attractive females actually have the nerve to have THE SAME standards as drop dead georgeous females?
Who knew?
On second thought, don’t bother telling your friend that she should lower her standards because:
A. she’ll never believe you and will continue thinking she’s hot shit and “deserves” brad pitt
B. she’ll fcking hate you for telling her the truth
Ironically, many of these same women with inflated expectations would be outraged to encounter a man who had any standards whatsoever. “Who does he think he is?” is the usual cry.
Hi
I’ve read the email and comments. Something that keeps creeping in my mind is, this guy friend, doesn’t sound like a nice guy. Sorry, but he sounds very judgmental of her. He is picking on her looks. I understand it must be tiresome to hear the same complaints over and over. This male friend could mention to the woman having trouble she may feel better seeing a therapist to help her get some relief, understanding or a good ear while kindly pointing out patterns to her. There are many that have sliding fee scales.
I’m leery of males who attack a women’s looks. He sounds hostile to me even though he’s “happy in a relationship.” 23 is still young and 23 year old guys are still growing up too. It’s odd that a good friend wouldn’t want the best for another friend (male or female) instead of telling her to lower her standards.
Jimmy, every single one of your posts so far has been critical of “women.” I’ve certainly met my share of superficial, dishonest, unreliable men and would never make the mistake of starting a sentence with “men …” because there is no way I can possibly know every man’s experience.
Just because I was cheated on by Peter and Daniel and Joe doesn’t necessarily mean that James will cheat on me. Please refrain from using “women…” and “most women…” in your posts as there is no way you’ve interacted with most women.
Of course, “most men…” should not be in one’s vocabulary either
Anyone could cite unflattering OKCupid data, like the fact that females over 30 are significantly less valued than males of the very same age. This is all socialization. We’ve all been socialized to value youth in women, and not see it as a priority in males. Women have also been socialized to be sexually restrained and that may be the reason why not many go for ‘quantity,’ focusing on ‘quality’ instead. Of course, I’m just conjecturing since this is not necessarily my personal practice.
Women can easily have casual sex relationships, flings with men way out of their league.
A mediocre looking woman who is mediocre in every other aspect can easily have casual sex with good looking, tall, fit, charming and socially attractive men.
Some immature women think that just because its easy for them to have sex with those men, they deserve the same quality of men for relationships as well.
These women are poisoned for the ordinary looking men who are her equals. I advice men that if you are an average looking guy, never emotionally invest in a woman who had lots of sex with men out of her league.
P.S: Some women will have a huge ego problem admitting that its much much easier for them to get sex (that too with men better looking than themselves) than it is for men.