Charlotte Allen theorizes that if you dress like a slut this Halloween you might be raped.
I, of course, do not want this horrific fate to happen to anyone, so I have decided to exclusively reveal What Sluts Dress Like on Halloween.
As fabulous as I am, you guys are just going to have to refrain from going as Steampunk Rakish Dandy. It might be best if you just stay away from costumes that cover your whole body and make it impossible to determine your gender. As we all know, those just drive men wild with lust. Wild! Wild, I say!
AB: “And I didn’t say they were feminists, I just commented on the claim that members of the general population were not in agreement with feminism.” I love how you feel you can talk about other countries with any authority. I made it quite clear that I was only speaking about the UK. I don’t know if the same is true for other countries, and neither do you. Remember that. Daisy: “Adiabat: because you’re voluntarily identifying with arguments like Daisy’s. Arguments that so far, none of you have refuted with anything but insults, snark and emotion.” You keep believing that… Read more »
AB: Ahem, I was using a general “you”. See such lines as “if your concerned by the image that feminism has” showing that I my “you’s” refer to those people, and “You also fail to realise the main problem with your numbers argument; you are basically saying that “good” feminists aren’t correcting Daisy’s obviously flawed arguments because she is outnumbered” where the difference between you and “good feminists” is made more explicit. Also: “Do you realise the complete lack of integrity there?” Notice I say *the* lack of integrity and not “Your lack of integrity”. Do you hear that? It’s… Read more »
Feminism has a so-so name amongst egalitarians. Depending mainly on personal experience I guess. But you can bet dollars to donuts that trans women have had more bad than good experience with feminism (took a long while to even recognize cissexism and repudiate the book-based radfem anti-trans opinion – which can still be cited in women’s studies course as examples to follow, not to not reproduce). Jeffreys, Raymond, Greer, to only name the high-profile highly-acclaimed ones. My first contact with online feminist forums was Alas, a blog, in 2005 or 2006. It was about the Amazon Heart misandrous transphobic piece,… Read more »
I was arguing about the bit that said that feminists aren’t skeptical about feminist theory. We are so skeptical about feminist theory that we have to come up with a bunch of labels to sort out who’s skeptical about what. 🙂 (“So you’re saying that physics is less valid because no women were doing it. I… see.”)
And I’m pretty sure you will never have a social movement entirely full of non-biased people who argue in good faith and listen to others.
dungone: Adding labels upon labels to differentiate one feminism from another only goes so far to try to give it all a good name.
That’s funny, I thought Ozy was just describing her politics, not necessarily trying to give feminism a “good name”–why should she do that?
Of course, feminism already has an excellent name, except among anti-feminists, religious fanatics and conservatives.
I’m a socialist social constructionist third-wave queer feminist with an interest in feminist studies of men. If I talked to a psychoanalytic standpoint Marxist lesbian feminist, we are probably not going to get on so well! @Ozy, I appreciate your openness but I think you’re missing out on our perspective. Adding labels upon labels to differentiate one feminism from another only goes so far to try to give it all a good name. Labels such as “argues in good faith,” “isn’t a misandrist,” and “listens to others,” should be applicable to all feminists and when someone doesn’t live up to… Read more »
Okay, Daisy did kind of say that, albeit in a different direction that I took it, I didn’t read all the posts above me, so I’ll give credit where due.
Actually, I’d say ‘Kyriarchy’ is more an attempt to seem more broad minded about oppression issues and make it LOOK like it’s not about blaming men, but whenever any real or imagined issue with men comes up, the yelling isn’t any less loud.
When men are allowed bitterness against women, I’ll be far more forebearing of womens bitterness against men.
@debaser71: AB, for me, what you say here doesn’t apply. If you care to, you can read what I wrote in July. I hope that if you read it, you’ll have a better understanding where my posts are coming from. To be honest, it’s a bit hard when you mention that what changed your mind was something happening in a specific community which I don’t have access to, and you don’t want to talk about it, except that some people didn’t act rationally. Generally, I’m less interested in what happens in specific communities or specific sites, and more about how… Read more »
Debaser, fascinating link. You characterize these feminists upset about Elevatorgate as bad, bad, bad, but notably, no direct quotes, links, or examples. Could you provide some? You just claim they are man-haters and blah blah blah (yawn), the same arguments made against radical feminists since day one. You provide no evidence. They are just “mean girls”–just as you are trashing me here without actually engaging my arguments, just brushing me off with “rape culture!”–a term I do not even use. Now, was Rebecca Watson right to get upset or not? Is Herman Cain allowed to paw the help? If it… Read more »
Schala the difference is, the system of men working themselves to death (and lets be clear, I come from working class farm women who ALSO worked themselves to death, so it kinda bothers me when people act like it is only MEN who do very hard work) is not because WOMEN forced them to take these social roles, or because laws INSTITUTED BY WOMEN dictated that they should. That would be a matriarchy, the flip side of patriarchy. There is no such thing. Men here keep arguing it that way, though. 1) I’m using Japan as an example. Salaryman is… Read more »
Schala the difference is, the system of men working themselves to death (and lets be clear, I come from working class farm women who ALSO worked themselves to death, so it kinda bothers me when people act like it is only MEN who do very hard work) is not because WOMEN forced them to take these social roles, or because laws INSTITUTED BY WOMEN dictated that they should. That would be a matriarchy, the flip side of patriarchy. There is no such thing. Men here keep arguing it that way, though. The word KYRIARCHY was a well-intentioned way to get… Read more »
Ozy, in total agreement w/you about Cixous. Generally unreadable. I was like, huh?
Maybe a bad translation? Or maybe bad theory! :p
Gotta love those mark-up problems.
Or how it’s just the working assumption that duh, women have it worse. And could you show me the matriarchal culture that exists, controls men and has instituted religious and secular laws to (for instance) keep men at home or out of the workplace (and therefore poor and dependent)? There is none. By contrast, the reverse is true all over the world; some cultures are exceptionally severe and some have mostly vestiges of past patriarchal severity. But there is no matriarchy oppressing men, here or anywhere. The very idea is laughable. /blockquote> What you are replying to absolutely does not… Read more »
@Schala
That’s not a bad list of feminists at that. 🙂
@ Daisy
I did see Rick Perry’s…. whatever that was via HuffPo. o.O As a man from Texas (but I’ve been a long time out, thanks) who’s quite socially incompetent I hate to lambaste another but… Dude, ain’t you in politics?
Also, I think I’ve noted some of the other comments in this thread and they’re right. Evil runs rampant when good men stay silent, so I’m gonna say it. Daisy…
Beyond the Big 10?! What are you talking about? Radical’s radical but that’s crazy talk right there.
No I’ve never taken a womens studies course but I have talked to feminists and when it comes to the praise its not so much (insert school of feminist thought) is so enlightening (on said topic) its feminist theory is so enlightening (on said topic).
So again I say when it comes to criticism exact citation is demanded but when praising its okay to generalize. But ill be fair and quantify it with “In my experience “.
There are all kinds of feminist theory I agree with and disagree with! For instance, I’m a socialist social constructionist third-wave queer feminist with an interest in feminist studies of men. If I talked to a psychoanalytic standpoint Marxist lesbian feminist, we are probably not going to get on so well! (Ugh, fuck psychoanalytic feminism. Cixous needs to quit writing and become a carpenter.)
“People don’t judge feminism based on the actions of feminists, they judge feminism based on the actions of non-feminists, and judge non-feminists based on perceptions of feminism. ” AB, for me, what you say here doesn’t apply. If you care to, you can read what I wrote in July. http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2011/07/06/an-open-thread-that-exceeds-the-debt-ceiling/#comment-177118 “I was sort of blissfully unaware of so called “radical feminists” or “feminist theory”. I naively thought feminism was about open minded liberal/progressives who care about issues like reproductive rights, equal pay, discrimination, etc. And even though I never considered myself a feminist (in the same way I don’t consider… Read more »
Adiabat: because you’re voluntarily identifying with arguments like Daisy’s. Arguments that so far, none of you have refuted with anything but insults, snark and emotion. And when all else fails, simply ignoring me. If “arguments like Daisy’s” are self-evidently wrong and so easy to refute, please do it already. Instead you wring your hands, gnash your teeth and tell me how unfair I am. Stats and facts please. Rationality. All that stuff you claim to be about. Danny: Well Daisy I can’t blame debaser’s line of thought considering that when it comes to praising feminist theory there’s not much thought… Read more »
@dungone: The most glaring thing that’s wrong with this statement is known as an illicit substitution (I think there might be something to better describe it, but IMO it fits). AB is saying that if you agree with a one idea, and a feminist agrees with an idea, then you are a feminist. It’s like saying that if you believe that murder is wrong, and the Ten Commandments say that murder is wrong, then you should be a Christian. I didn’t at any point say that agreeing with ONE idea made you a feminist. I said that there are people… Read more »
I don’t identify with feminism and thus can usually deflect criticism of not rejecting the bad elements of the movement…but imagine that, I made it my crusade to criticize the bad elements in order to better the movement, and to point out problematic behavior when I see it (and not just fat-phobia, ableism and racism – transphobia, cissexism and sexism against men, too). Then I’m accused by all and sundries of being anti-feminist, a MRA and a conservative. While the really bad elements (transphobic radfems with pretty weird paranoid fantasies of being invaded by trans women) try to insult me… Read more »
(continued) You also fail to realise the main problem with your numbers argument; you are basically saying that “good” feminists aren’t correcting Daisy’s obviously flawed arguments because she is outnumbered, as though it is more important to them for feminism to “win” an argument on false premises rather than ensure that the arguments that are used in support of feminism are rational and aren’t full of logical fallacies. Do you realise the complete lack of integrity there? Let’s pretend for a moment that people commenting here are just people who happen to identify more or less strongly with various political… Read more »
@Adiabat: AB: Well, I think you’re attacking a strawman there. I never that you need to bash feminists but, if your concerned by the image that feminism has, don’t allow the only feminists who take part in these discussions to be a more mentally… inadequate member of your movement. There’s not really anything I can do about that. I don’t have hordes of feminists under my command, whom I can get to actively participate in threads where they don’t feel welcome. Please tell me how on earth I’m in a position to ‘allow’ feminists to do anything. You may not… Read more »
@Abiabat, you know what I said up above about leading and loaded questions? It’s actually much broader and more serious than that, with lots of rhetorical tricks all over the place. For example, there’s this gem of a statement that’s loaded to the brim with Fail. I’ve seen people who’re in agreement with the vast majority of feminists I’ve met and talked to, but don’t identify as feminist because they believe what anti-feminists say about feminism. The most glaring thing that’s wrong with this statement is known as an illicit substitution (I think there might be something to better describe… Read more »