This comment by Archy originally appeared in response to the article The Atlantic and GMP.
Dear egalitarian feminists, remember how the MRA’s get in such a fit over feminism and the whataboutthemenz shaming, privilege slinging, general non-acceptance of men in their movement, and how feminism is NOT for male issues to be helped? I’ve got some quotes from the comment section of the atlantic for you to peruse and it might illustrate the type of feminist many mra’s encounter. It’s the easiest way to understand why there are so many anti-feminists, and why there are quite a few mra’s or even just men who’ve felt like feminism wasn’t accepting of them.
“The one comment that stood out the most to me is Zoe Nicholson’s that men’s ideal involvement in the feminist movement is as passive actors. “Behind,” “underneath,” “away,” men’s thoughts are irrelevant, they just need to give/raise money and stay out of the way. Is she right about this? ”
and the reply to this comment just under this line.
“Yes, she is. The society we live in values the voices of men over women, so feminism needs to be a place where women’s voices are paramount. If men want to share their thoughts and feelings, there’s the whole rest of the world to do that in. Feminism is for women. ”
Basically shutup you privileged male, we want feminism as a female-space
“Yes, it’s women’s responsibility once again to reach out to teh menz. Not that of men to get off their behinds and fight sexism. Fail. ”
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Menz with the z is commonly used in an insulting manner, “What about the menz”. The comment may also be ignoring sexism against men but not too sure on that.
“Not my job to convince a man to be a decent human being if his parents failed. Also, given that society encultures women to cater to men in every other arena, I don’t give a damn if men feel hurt at being “excluded” by feminism. It’s not about them. Deal. ”
Against, feminism is not about men, men have all of society, yadda yadda.
“No, I don’t care what men have to say about feminism. They can have a say in feminism when women get to have a say in the patriarchy. ”
Funnily enough in the earlier days women probably did have quite a say in the “patriarchy” if it exists.
Now this is the kind of feminism that clashs with the egalitarian feminism, it seems they believe ONLY women have issues and men have “all the power”(TM), society is for men and men benefit so much.
“I just don’t understand why you are meekly submitting to the bigoted rhetoric of someone who hates you for no other reason than the pairing of your chromosomes. I’m a woman and an advocate for women’s rights, but I find this poisonous strain of feminism to be completely disgusting. I just don’t understand how you, a man and therefore the target of this bile, can react in any other way. ”
Seems some feminists are calling out the radfems (I’m guessing that is what the above were) which is a good sign.
“Exactly, both genders are simultaneously privileged and disprivileged by our traditional gender roles. When it comes to the courtroom (family or criminal), women have a distinct advantage. As to laws against stereotypically gendered violence. I’m speaking of special legal provisions for things like rape and domestic abuse. Where a man’s right to due process is in the name of keeping women safe. Extrajudicial punishments for accused abusers, and rape shield laws that unconstitutionally prevent men accused of rape from being able to present an affirmative defense. Also consider the fact that male victims of domestic violence are more likely to be arrested than their abusers if they call the police. Even if the male victim is dripping with blood, and his female abuser doesn’t have a scratch on her. I’m a criminal defense attorney and I see these things all the time. I was a pretty rabid feminist in college. Then I entered the legal profession and I see just how fundamentally unfair and discriminatory our justice system is to men. There is a growing recognition of this problem amongst attorneys. Even ardently feminist attorneys are beginning to admit that men get the shaft in court.”
This comment really stood out as someone in the industry who see’s the harm men can face and how sexism against men can actually be institutionalized.
This is what men face, even women who support male issues face, there is a clear division in feminism between egalitarians and gynocentrics. This is where the anti-feminism comes from as it’s commonly said that the gynocentric feminists actually have power, ability to lobby for gendered laws that are harmful to men and keeping the victim-mentality going on. It’s important I feel for everyone to see this division in what people think feminism is as it should help illustrate why feminism gets such a bad name at times. I agree it’s unfair to paint them all with the same brush but please understand there is I feel a legitimate concern with regard to feminism on male issues, I truly do not feel safe or comfortable discussing male issues in feminist spaces because of previous experiences where gynocentrics have belittled, antagonized and minimized the experience of men and egalitarians were few n far between.
Feminism for some is a view of equalism, so an attack on feminism can appear to be an attack on equal rights, it can also be seen as an attack on FEMALE rights, but most commonly I see it an attack on hypocrisy by x amount of feminists who cry foul of societies treatment of women but silence or even insulting on issues regarding men. There is a hell of a lot of bigotry within many self-indentified feminists but it’s the socially acceptable kind, bigotry against men and to dare question this will cop a near zealous reaction, and to dare question feminism will quickly land you accused of being a misogynist, hater of equality, “privileged white cis-male”, and other diversionary tactics.
Sorry to say it but quite a lot of feminists have tarnished the name and it’s up to feminists to fix it somehow, when SO MANY men and WOMEN start to call out feminism like I’ve seen recently, there is a big problem. Radfems, or gynocentrics, whatever label they are…seem to be destroying the good name of feminism and that’s sad because the founding principle was a good one. This is my opinion of course, I totally love egalitarian feminists and hate that their voices aren’t heard as much because of the instant association of feminism with the gynocentric misandrists, it’s unfair to be lumped together but quite frankly it’s similar to what mra’s face when they’re lumped together with the androcentric misogynists. I know quite a few egalitarian people and not many like to call themselves MRA or feminist, that in itself to me speaks volumes. Work together people! It seems many of each have the same goals just on different sides of the fence.
—Photo barb.howe/Flickr
Wow. Just… Wow.
I’ve always been one to question everything. At the age of 7 I recall telling people my favorite color was pink, just to challenge the “pink is a girl’s color” mindset.
Now I find myself constantly surrounded by “feminists” who automatically assume that because I call myself an egalitarian I’m out to get them. Frankly I’m terrible at expressing what I feel, and your whole article has hit that nail right on the head. I’m speechless.
Thank-you, I only write on what I have observed and my frustrations of trying to find an egalitarian place whether that be in a feminist, mra, or mixup setting. And a year on I still notice the silly wars between MRA’s and Feminists which really sadden me because on the whole they both have very similar goals…
I think there should be a special place online, a special site or group who is specialized in dialogue between MRA’s and feminists. A place much like GMP where there for every feminist article published there is a masculist. So it always balace out. And the comment/forum is heavely moderated.
I think I would love a place like that.
Nothing against GMP
Dear, I think there is something that you’ve missed. If you have inequality plus equality you continue to have inequality… So, when a group needs equality, it might need inequality. Its mathematical! 10 is diferent from 6. To have an equality you need to add 4 to the second term. You can’t get equal pretending that there is not an inequality! Men must understand that they can and need to help to fight sexism, but not talk for women. Man can tal about how machism makes them need to apper very heterosexual and have many girls, they cannot cry, they… Read more »
I think the problem is that many extremist feminists are willing to trample the rights of others just to try and further themselves. I just came from a facebook group of women celebrating the mutilation, murder, and beheading of a man, because the woman who did it claimed (without any evidence) to have been raped by him. Not only did he not deserve the right to a fair trial, or the right to living, but he didn’t even deserve a moments consideration that he MIGHT have been innocent.
bobbt: Actually, there hasn’t been military conscription in the U.S. since I believe 1973( the year I turned 19 and was eligible) so it’s a dead issue anyway. The ratio of logistical support personel to actual combat personel is 3.4:1. so there are lots of oppurtunities for everyone in todays military. If that’s the case then what’s the deal with Selective Service. When a male turns 18 he has to register with Selective Service under pain of: 1. Having applications to government funded colleges disqualified. 2. Having applications for government funded financial aid disqualified. 3. A five year prison sentence.… Read more »
Some countries ask both men and women to sign on to service to the country. I see that it should be either all or none.
Agreed. I find it interesting that a lot (not all) of the men I have talked to about including women in registering for Selective Service (gotta love that name), actually don’t want women to be included. It’s something I never could make sense of.
Its the same reason I’ve talked to women that think men should not be the ones to tend to sick children. They are bound up in old gender roles. The men you’ve spoken to probably don’t think “women should be fighting wars” and the women I’ve spoken to probably don’t think “men should be caring for children”.
Ideally I’d get rid of Selective Service altogether.
Yeah, I guess what I meant by it being something I never could make sense of…was more I couldn’t make sense of the logic behind it. Women are in the military (albeit in a limited capacity). I’d have thought we’d have included women in registering for selective service too by now.
But yeah, as Archy says…let’s just avoid war altogether.
Men are raised on the heroism and self-sacrifice burden, hence why so much media is about the male putting his life on the line to protect his family/loved ones/damsel in distress. So those men most likely want to protect women and don’t want them in conscription. I however say F that, if men have to sign up, women better line up as well! What’s good for the gander is good for the goose 😉 I don’t believe women are weak, there is a difference in physical strength yes but not everything requires that extra male-strength and women can do many… Read more »
Danny, your right! God, it’s so long ago I’ve forgotten the details. The selective service act was never actually repealed, just the draft was suspended. While those laws are still on the books, like our immigration laws, there not really enforced all that much. I know many young men over the last 10 years or so who just havent bothered to register, including my own son(I honestly think they didn’t realize they were suppose to). It would add some spice to the gender debate though, if the US government ever decides to enforce the law.
Have any of you people SEEN what MRA’s have to say about women?? Do you know what feminists have to put up with from online woman-hating fanatics? “[W]hen some of you call a woman a “bitch” think about what you are saying. The word “bitch” means a female dog. So if you are going to use the word with its true meaning, you would actually be insulting female dogs, because the dogs have better behavior than many women. … I would never insult my dog by calling Gloria Allred a “bitch”. … I would call her a feminist but not… Read more »
I’ve had a feminist tell me she hoped I would get raped. Highlighting the bad ones and calling them out is needed. The generalizations I see there are pretty extreme though, have they never seen egalitarian MRA’s? His disparaging usage of misandry is childish though, and the antagonism leaves a lot to be desired. “Lauralot, you can’t be an MRA because you’re not an illogical whiny asshole.” There’s one quote, on that site where people complain of generalizations. Seems a bit hypocritical to me… I do hope to see the egalitarian MRA’s call out the bad ones quoted though, both… Read more »
“And the person in the jury comment scares me. Be bitter n angry all you want but don’t ruin the justice system over that bitterness.”
Ah really? i don’t know any MRA’s who have enough power to change laws or even make them. On the other side, there are many feminists who have that power, but they don’t seem to scare you, and this point is where things start to be really interesting.
i can discredit any forum by goin’ there, and write something nasty. Just think about it.
Have any of you people SEEN what MRA’s have to say about women?? Do you know what feminists have to put up with from online woman-hating fanatics?
Unless you can prove all MRAs have that attitude about women what’s your point?
Yes there are bad ones out there and they need to be called on their negativity. But the fact that there is negativity among MRAs doesn’t justify the negativity among feminists.
Yeah I’d have to agree with Archy and Danny here. Much like love, hate is a two way street.
I appreciated this greatly. I’ve seen the kind of debates from both sides. I experienced the problem growing up when my mother was rather abusive of my father, claiming that everything was his fault in the relationship but not recognizing or willing to work it out. Somehow coming out of it my mother and my sister refuse to accept this as a possibility, speaking of my dad as the typically emotionally distant male. This I find so untrue. My dad was one of my best friends growing up. I even preferred to live with him after he and my mother… Read more »
“Pitting one sex against the other isn’t going to accomplish anything.”
Except perhaps make us lesbians (and gay guys) a little happier. 😉
Seriously though, your comment is so true.
Seconded! I think Noah Brand recently wrote an article on similar lines for GMP discussing how the zero-sum nature of the “gender war” leaves everyone worse for it.
And a lol to your comment about lesbians and gay guys being happy for the gender war. 😀
How’z about seeing Feminism as just another collective bargaining lobby and solving problems with reasoned debates by reasoned debaters. the way it’s looking right now, MRA’s obsession with Rad-fems has hit almost sexual proportions.
Some of their articles expose radfem links to positions of influence, lobbyists, and even daycare workers and the like. So… that’s worrying and deserves attention.
Except for the word “reasoned” I’d agree. Not all feminists are reasonable.
Sorry to say it but quite a lot of feminists have tarnished the name and it’s up to feminists to fix it somehow, when SO MANY men and WOMEN start to call out feminism like I’ve seen recently, there is a big problem.
Shroedinger’s Feminist?
I think the name “feminism” can not be fixed. As i have a bad feeling about “masculinism” (people with LOTS of false preconceptions), always will have the same feeling about feminism.
There was alot of bad press and misconceptions at the birth of feminism too, but they went on to do great things (some of them) regardless. I hold out the same hope for masculism.
Anti-feminist rhetoric. Unfortunate.
What’s anti-feminist rhetoric? Our comments?
Is anyone else getting sick and tired of the “Anti-feminist” label just because we have a few beefs with certain segements of the movement? I can’t be the only one.
Questioning feminism is sorely needed, but I am not actually anti-feminist. I have suspicions on the intentions of SOME feminists but I also absolutely adore egalitarian feminists. But quite frankly I have to ask, WHAT is feminism? It seems to have different meanings to feminists themselves, it’s very confusing! Some welcome men and want them to talk of their issues, others want men to shutup and let women have their space, which is right?
Thanks for this article, Archy. I keep hearing about these radical feminists from commenters on this site, but this absolutely has not been my experience of feminism. Of course, I don’t spend much time reading comments sections on most websites. I’ve increasingly come to think that the reason feminism has become such a bad word is not because the majority of feminists are anti-male, but that because those whose views are most easily accessible do espouse such ideology. Feminism is about equality. We are in the third wave of feminism. Initially it was about advancing women’s rights, and I think… Read more »
Great post! I totally agree with all of it.
Really, I find the term ‘egalitarian feminist’ to be redundant, as I define feminism as an egalitarian movement. If feminism is an egalitarian movement then ‘it should be the change it wants to see’ – men’s voice, concerns, issues should be in it, equally heard. And there should be an equal number of male leaders. An egalitarian movement would be concerned equally with the issues of men and of women. Feminism is not an egalitarian movement. Feminism is a woman centered, woman focused space. Which is as it should be. It is a women’s movement to protect and advance the… Read more »
I have to agree with this…
Agreed.
Thanks for the reply. “Really, I find the term ‘egalitarian feminist’ to be redundant, as I define feminism as an egalitarian movement.” Thing is not all feminists share this view, if it truly was redundant we would never be having this discussion and you’d see a hell of a lot less anti-feminism. It’s sad that the extremists can get such a public voice these days online but I guess you have to remember that not everyone can access a local feminist group to discuss the issues with so online comments/forums provide an easy way to converse….Especially on issues that can… Read more »
“If anyone knows an egalitarian feminist site I’d love to hear about it, so far I know of noseriouslywhataboutthemenz which seems male friendly but it’s also male focused.”
Thats an excellent point actually. I’d love to find such a site myself.
Same…or maybe I’ll just make one. 🙂
“Feminism is about confronting ageism, sexism, racism, heteronormativity, homophobia, classism, and all of the other ways that different human beings are subjected to discrimination and oppression.”
If so, then why use a word that specifically refers to women? Why not just use a broader term like “humanist” or “egalitarian.” The word “feminist” has alot of baggage, and not all of it relates to egalitarianism.
If you wanted to “mitigate” your privilege you would drop the feminist label and become a humanist.
Yeah, the Atlantic article was as real trainwreck with the gynofeminists like anonymouswoman, others and of course ginmar poopflinging
Atlantic article = Atlantic article comment thread
My point is that it’s hard for a male to speak about the female experience which to me is what feminism is more about than anything. Embracing being a woman, fostering respect and dialogue for/with other women, and dealing with issues only women can understand. True. A person trying to speak about the experiences of someone that they are not isn’t right. And that is why while I have my criticisms of feminism I don’t want to see it undone. Equal rights is something that I kind of believe should be separate from that. It needs to be involved with… Read more »
“True. A person trying to speak about the experiences of someone that they are not isn’t right. And that is why while I have my criticisms of feminism I don’t want to see it undone” Well considering my job is to speak about the experiences of people I am most certainly not, I kind of disagree with this. I think we can…we just need to make sure to qualify our statements. I’m not a man, but to me it seems like… I’m not straight, but from my perspective… I’m not from Europe, but I think that… And so on…I think… Read more »
Hi! I am coffee_queen, lover of caffeine, and a female-bodied gender egalitarian who is stoked to have found an article that outlines her perspective and frustration with gynocentric radfem. I LOVED this article. So much. It was in harmony with my feelings and spirit throughout. In university, I was being groomed toward a gynocentric male = bad oppressors and female = innocent victims dichotomy. I cringe to think about it now. It made me so angry to be constantly faced with examples of male-on-female abuse. But then I got to thinking my final quarters there, that if the dialogue was… Read more »
Gaa. This is what happens when I am reading and posting stuff instead of sleeping.
I just want to say how chagrined I am that I posed this narcissistic egocentric me-me-me thing. Somewhere intending to be all “eff yeah egalitarianism! Men are awesome! Women are awesome! Humans are awesome!” got hijacked by my ego. Mea culpa.
Is there any way to delete comments?
Why would you want to delete it? I think it was a good comment. Describing your feelings about something isn’t a bad thing imho. As long as you don’t forget to think…
Thanks for your kind comment. Mainly I wanted to delete so I could re-write it without all the self-aggrandizing “gee look how awesome I am hern hern” stuff in it. ‘Tis what I get for posting while my brain was not working correctly…
In future I will definitely make sure I am awake and thinking as well as feeling before posting, haha! 🙂
It was a good post, everyone deserves a lil me me me. The sum of all the me me me’s = humanity so it can be quite important to read, and I’d rather read about how good people are vs how they hate this, n want to hurt that.
Thank-you for your comment, it’s much appreciated.
“The sum of all the me me me’s = humanity so it can be quite important to read, and I’d rather read about how good people are vs how they hate this, n want to hurt that.” This! There’s so much hate flying around it’s insane. There are so many wonderful people in the world it’s a shame that so many people seem content to judge and hate based on superficial characteristics. Meeting a few such wonderful people radically re-aligned my perspective. I wonder if meeting the right person or persons would help radicals of all stripes stop and think… Read more »
so I tried to write something out but then something weird happened and it got refreshed or something and lost what I was writing. But that’s ok because I was struggling to make my point. My point is that it’s hard for a male to speak about the female experience which to me is what feminism is more about than anything. Embracing being a woman, fostering respect and dialogue for/with other women, and dealing with issues only women can understand. Equal rights is something that I kind of believe should be separate from that. It needs to be involved with… Read more »
Far as I can tell based on a quick wiki “Radical feminism is a current theoretical perspective within feminism that focuses on the theory of patriarchy as a system of power that organizes society into a complex of relationships based on an assumption that male supremacy[1] oppresses women.” It’s also used in a way to describe extremist feminists, usually misandrist bigots. I don’t think when people say radical feminist they refer to someone outside of the norm using those products, ethical products etc. So maybe be mindful of that as saying you’re a radical will be misunderstood by what you… Read more »
Great post, Laura. There is a place for men in the feminist – or in the egalitarian / women’s rights / gender equality – movements and it’s not the sidelines. That said, I am struggling to think of one time when the addition of a male voice to a predominately female discussion didn’t somehow manage to divert the focus of the discussion to (a) the lone male voice, giving his contributions (good or bad) more weight than the multiple female commentors, which leads to (b) eventually a distortion of the discussion to what benefits or hurts men – almost exclusive… Read more »
That said, I am struggling to think of one time when the addition of a male voice to a predominately female discussion didn’t somehow manage to divert the focus of the discussion to (a) the lone male voice, giving his contributions (good or bad) more weight than the multiple female commentors, which leads to (b) eventually a distortion of the discussion to what benefits or hurts men – almost exclusive to its effects on women, and (c) the consequential devaluaing of the female life experience that other female speakers are expressing because that just does not “jive” with what the… Read more »
The Great Houdini trick of feminism blaming men for the plight of women and then again blaming men for their own plight using the magic wand of feminism.
“Women file for 80% of divorces, but men lead the stats in infidelity, gambling, addiction, etc. ” Care to backup these with statistics, especially infidelity? “Male experience is a valuable portion of this discussion, but it is just a portion. And women’s life experiences aren’t something that most male voices in the discussion are qualified to hold forth as experts on – and so many seem to inevitably end up doing so (or, when male experience is not benefitted by something that would improve female experience, pull a sort of trump card with the tone that, “If you turn this… Read more »
Thanks all for the comments, sure was a surprise to see comment of the day.
Great commentary, Archy, you give voice to the predicament I’ve faced too at the backlash when I call myself a feminist. Some people will assume that feminist = gynocentric/radfem, to appropriate the terms you used, and shut out my comments based on that. It even led me recently to question whether I want to call myself a feminist anymore – but that didn’t feel right, because I do still believe many of the things that led me to calling myself a feminist in the first place. I just have a new perspective on it – thanks in no small part… Read more »
Thank-you, I try my best to over-explain the issue to reach a broad audience as many comments have said what I said but it needed to be with real-world examples to have the impact. Maybe saying egalitarian-feminist when you identify would be a way to defuse the negative associations, I’ve seen others do that here and it seems fairly successful. I find it sad that there is a need to identify which type of feminist you are but it seems the only way now to avoid conflict due to the gynocentrics and radfems. The Church of feminism (I like that)… Read more »
Again, very well said. One way of looking at it metaphorically is that the pendulum has swung from the male-dominated social structure from centuries back, towards the other extreme where women are seen as competitive with men rather than subordinate – although not in all cases exactly equal. It is my hope that before we go too far to that extreme, the pendulum will swing back again towards the center, maybe even to the other side if the Men’s Rights movement gains more steam in the next few decades, but eventually I hope that pendulum can find a final point… Read more »
There’s more to it than that, KKZ. The pendulum has also swung so far into the region of not only competiveness but also no female agency. When a woman abuses a child or a man, society falls all over itself to find reasonings behind it while not extending the same common courtesy to male abusers. If a man ever tries to defend himself against a female abuser, he’s seen as the violent one or a woman hater in general if he spoke out. If a woman were ever arrested and charged in a court of law, the sentencing would be… Read more »
Hang on, hang on…what do you mean by female agency? Women have more agency than they used to. And part of the problem with something like the imbalance of parental rights is that women have more agency than men in that area.
Maybe what you’re trying to refer to is female responsibility?
Yeah I believe he means responsibility for actions, eg not being assumed as less dangerous/harmful/whatever in cases of abuse.
Yeah, Heather, should’ve said that instead. Makes more sense now that I reflect on the comment.
I really wasn’t trying to pick on you…I just pick at language sometimes. Not that my comments are always so perfectly written or anything. It’s just always easier to notice something like that in a comment you read rather than write. 🙂
I think agency is exactly the right word. The construction of women as victims both shields female criminals and denies other women the agency to engage with society (in some spheres) as fully as men.
If women have no responsibility in some areas, then its also true that they are unlikely to attain a position of responsibility in those areas.
Actually, not necessarily in the same areas. But the idea that women can’t really be expected to behave rationally and independantly definitely cuts both ways.
Ummmm they didnt want to know to be honest , take Erin Pizzey , the woman who opened the first DV shelter in the world, feminists pretty much destroyed her life because she saw and stated that DV was not a male on female act alone .
http://www.bennett.com/ptv/
Human beings are notoriously difficult to work with 😉
There are voices for men and for women in feminism, or equalism, or humanism and there should be. I am not a radical, nor an academic. I see value in the poles, in agitators, and thought provokers, but ultimately I seek pragmatic steady change focused on people as creative collaborators. This may make me unpopular with MRAs and Feminists (or maybe they’ll both find me interesting and I’ll have TWO dates to the prom!) but it’s who I am.
I think there are a lot of people that dislike labels like me, but are egalitarian at heart. Labels are so restricting and can carry a prejudice with them if the reader has had a bad experience at the hands of others in that label’s group.
I felt the same way about labels for a very long time- up until recently actually. Then I realized that by not association myself with things like feminism, I was allowing these negative idea of feminism persist as the dominant, and only, form of feminism that there is. I was allowing these terrible people carry the banner and tarnish the image. So, I have chosen as an individual to reclaim these labels. Yes, some people will see these labels and make assumptions about me- but I will prove them wrong. So Hello Mr. Archy, My name is Neko. I am… Read more »
Hi 5 Neko, it’s what I love to hear. I’m glad others get it and are fighting for the label.
Good Luck Neko,
For every Neko trying to improve the image of feminism, hundred radical feminists would rise to tarnish the image. You have taken up a lost cause.
Not to be a rain cloud over this “Kumbaya Moment” , but can anyone tell me one positive thing for men that’s come out of the Feminist movement? You know, one instance where men got the “short end of the stick” so to speak and now they don’t? Even if it was unintentional or incidental? As the article above says, not in the legal end of things. With only 40% (and falling) of undergrad degrees, not education. The way every politician quivers with fear of being in N.O.W.’s crosshairs ( the only way to expiain that peice of trash NVAW… Read more »
Alrighty I’m going to play devil’s advocate and ask how men were legally getting the short end of the stick before feminism? (In part I’m poking at you, but also I’m curious if there is something we can point to). I’m just talking legally, systematically here…..before feminism were there ways in which women came out on top?
Most, conscription is evil! Glad I live where there is none…I hope…*shoots leg to stay out*
True conscription does count…but feminism has been working toward a more equal military. In the states a bunch of positions in the military were just opened up to women. And in Israel both men and women are conscripted (I’m not sure if there are restrictions on the jobs women can fill in Israel…and I’m not sure how much feminism played a part in conscription in Israel either).
Heather, I’m reffering to the “hear and now” . I’m not disputing that the early feminist movement opened doors long closed for women. As a father of 3 young women, I’m grateful they have the oppurtunity to pursue carrers based on desire and skill and not have their choices restricted by their gender. Still, I also have a son and grandson. And when I see these statistics(70 men a day estimated suicides, 40% college degrees and falling, etc) I truly fear for them. I mean , I’ll be gone in a couple of years but they’ll have to survive in… Read more »
I was just replying to your question: “Can anyone tell me one positive thing for men that’s come out of the Feminist movement? You know, one instance where men got the “short end of the stick” so to speak and now they don’t?” I assumed you meant in the entire history of feminism. To which my reply was that traditionally I couldn’t think of anything in which men got the short end of the stick while women came on top. Except, as Archy pointed out, conscription. But women are becoming more prominent in the military too. Anyway, as for ‘admitting… Read more »
Not sure on the laws of the various countries but I’ve seen stuff talked about regarding gendered laws for rape, domestic violence (VAWA gets mentioned a lot). But I find individual sexism/etc heavily damaging without needing to be institutional. In Australia I am not sure if there are any gendered laws, possibly rape and sexual assault? Haven’t seen conscription here unless there is some secret list:P. A SUPER ULTRA MEGA lack of awareness and government level support campaigns for male victims of sexual violence, domestic violence whilst supporting female victims does exist however, which really pisses me off since pretty… Read more »
Totally agreed, Archy.
Actually, there hasn’t been military conscription in the U.S. since I believe 1973( the year I turned 19 and was eligible) so it’s a dead issue anyway. The ratio of logistical support personel to actual combat personel is 3.4:1. so there are lots of oppurtunities for everyone in todays military.
The conscription issue in the US is about selective service and from what I hear, men HAVE to sign up for fear of jail and/or being refused funding from the gov. And don’t kid yourself, if a major war happens you’ll see conscription return like a desperate ex.
Actually, I mostly agree with what these feminists are saying. It makes more sense to have at least two movements for gender equality – one for women and one for men, in constant dialogue with each other – than to say feminism should represent everyone. Feminism is about women, the men’s rights movement is about men. Both women and men probably need places where they can talk to other women or men without anyone derailing it into a discussion of the other group’s problems, as well as places where the groups can talk to each other. And many people who… Read more »
It would be one thing if it were a matter of men and women being in two groups Anna but when straight up lies like this: “Yes, she is. The society we live in values the voices of men over women, so feminism needs to be a place where women’s voices are paramount. If men want to share their thoughts and feelings, there’s the whole rest of the world to do that in. Feminism is for women. ” are being told it becomes rather difficult to want to work with that movement. I’ve been a man long enough to know… Read more »
Neither are women. Many women who are feminists don’t always hear about the issues men are dealing with. And those that do don’t necessarily have the platform to shake the trees. Many of us, men and women, feel individually challenged while looking across the divide and seeing what appears to be power in the other’s hands.
We’ve got to learn how to see through that illusion and work together.
Oh I certainly agree that women and feminists are not a monolith. But how can you dismiss someone’s concerns by claiming their group has “the whole rest of the world” to share their thoughts and feelings? without casting that group as a monolith? And I agree that that those that hear issues about men don’t necessarily have the platform to shake the trees (as I say, I’ve lived as a man long enough to know that issues about men don’t get the attention that a lot of feminists have decided it does). But there is a difference between “Oh I… Read more »
“it becomes rather difficult to want to work with that movement”
Well, there are MRAs who claim women as a group are literally subhuman, and there are still feminists who realise that that fringe doesn’t represent the whole movement.
I’m not sure the part about men having more places to make their voice heard is wrong, but in any case the person who wrote it probably believed it.
By all means the egal mra’s need to call out the bad mra’s as well. I think what troubles people is feminism get’s talked about in a way that is equalism and accepts both genders yet many only want it to be for female issues so there is a clash of ideals. I know I was under that impression and it really annoyed me when I talked about male issues to be cut down with insults, it’s as if there are 2 movements within feminism.
If any man deludes himself to believe that feminism is equally concerned about his rights, the he has nobody but himself to blame for his disappointment. What makes you still believe that feminism ever cared about the plight of men.
@ Anna
A vanishingly small minority of men have the space to speak one truth, that of the powerful man. Most men have no place to speak the truth of the powerless man.
And it’s the powerless man who needs help.
Well, there are MRAs who claim women as a group are literally subhuman, and there are still feminists who realise that that fringe doesn’t represent the whole movement. I’m not sure the part about men having more places to make their voice heard is wrong, but in any case the person who wrote it probably believed it. Im not sure about men having more places to make their voice heard is right or wrong but I do know that its a lot more nuanced and complicated than lumping us all together as a monolith because we share gender. If its… Read more »
Anna: “I’m not sure the part about men having more places to make their voice heard is wrong, but in any case the person who wrote it probably believed it.” No Anna. In my opinion, not only as a man but a male survivor of female abuse in addition to male abuse, there are next to no places for men to make their voice heard nowadays. Those men who do have it likely bought and paid with big money and power from their status. The majority of men lack that luxary nor are they remotely interested in it. They just… Read more »
Those quotes remind me of a quote from Stokely Carmichael. In the 1960’s he was asked what the position of women should be in the civil rights movement. His reply: “prone.”
It’s sentiments like that which made a lot of 1960’s feminists disillusioned with the African American civil rights movements and encouraged them to make their own separate groups. Now it’s come full circle. The more things change….
Those quotes sound like me from high school, I swear. I look at them and I’m like…grow up.
But anyway, I totally agree with what you’re saying Archy.
Thank-you, it’s great to learn people evolve past thoughts that are limiting. I was probably in the misanthropic “I hate the world” category in highschool. Pain from being bullied, hatred of humans for letting that stuff exist and not noticing the good people had left me quite hurt n bitter. Bullying from girls made me quite misogynistic too, it’s a real shock to the system when you think of women as nice n sweet then get torn apart by them. This is probably made worse by the whole teenage experience of new hormones and not understanding the opposite gender as… Read more »
Wow thanks for this comment – it kind of gave me some hope. I had a similar experience to yours, girls and women have been asses or plain ignored me since I hit puberty. Being bullied only reinforces a negative image and well, it makes it really hard to deal with women at all. I don’t know if it is hate – I doubt it, it is mostly fear of getting hurt again. How do I connect with someone without opening yourself to be really really hurt by them?
Sadly you need to open up and have trust to really connect with someone, it’s a gamble but believe me it can be well worth the risk. For myself I worked at strengthening my self-esteem, learning how to protect my sensitivity (the source of my empathy, a great asset) and keeping only positive people around me. This has allowed me to open up with less fear and allowed me to have some strong friendships. The thing to remember is there are many women who’ve been bitten too when opening up, many women who’ve had bad experiences with both genders and… Read more »
I see a TON of women like this, feminists who don’t want men in their movement and frankly don’t want white women with class privilege (like me) or cisgendered, or straight, as leaders of their movement any longer. I read their anti-man stuff all the time when I’m reading up on the anti-Hugo pages (I don’t know why I do this to myself, you all know he’s my friend). It makes me ILL and I hate it. However, I see a lot of comments here at GMP that are from self-proclaimed MRAs, and some non-identifiers that are equally as anti-woman.… Read more »
To me, being a good ally means being ready to act when asked, to be supportive and to listen, and yes to challenge and be challenged. I would never act on behalf of my gay and lesbian friends, as if I was their savior. Nor would I claim to speak for men. But I can speak as a wife to a man, a mother of boys and a friend of men. And I can listen and learn. That being said? Anyone willing to cut an ally off at the knees based simply on gender, skin color, or sexual identity isn’t… Read more »
I’m beginning to like the “ally” thing less and less. I first came accross it in the context of LGBT rights, but there was always the assumption there that straight people were as much a part of the club as the gays. That said, there was an embarassing moment when the organiser of a weekend of discourse and lectures on LGBT issues for gay students was almost excluded due to some archaic phrase in the USI constitution. I think she dodged the bulled by identifying as “non sexual” or something for the purposes of the weekend. Lately I’ve wanted less… Read more »
I concur. The place I stick with allies is that if I don’t know jack about a topic but I feel the need to “save” someone I should probably reexamine my motives. But yes, we all have a part to play, most certainly.
Oh fair enough, if you don’t have anything useful to say its probably better to stay stum. I just don’t think that the definition of “useful insight” necessarily depends on membership of the group in question. It came up in particular with a discussion I had with a friend (female, feminist) of mine concerning an article written by a male feminist from a poor hispanic community in the US concerning slutwalk (he was arguing that it contributed to the objectification of women and gave feminism a bad name). She held that we had no right to express an opinion on… Read more »
Not sure how much difference there is. I know many of them flat out don’t trust feminists, I can understand but I also see the good feminists, the egalitarians especially. The fastest way to lose trust as an ally is to write an article on abuse but word it in a way that minimizes the male experience, and a really fast way is to quote stats that say far more women are raped and most rapists are male when the same report pretty much contradicts itself apart from the wording. I’ve seen a few feminists writers do this here and… Read more »
“However, I see a lot of comments here at GMP that are from self-proclaimed MRAs, and some non-identifiers that are equally as anti-woman. They hate that females are involved with GMP, that we publish female writers, etc. How is this different?”
Answer: Its exactly the damn same. 🙁
I have not seen much in the way of anti female comments. I think you are judging by the feminist standard which allows no negative critique of women by men.
well , yes I honestly think so , one of the things that would have pushed me away from being an MRA ( and i feel no shame in admitting that my life led me to being this ) is if there was a blanket denial of injustice based on gender, in fact id go so far as to say feminist denial of male injustices , and in some cases openly mocking them is the reason the MRA exists. When i look at MRA discussions on dv for example , its usually described as a 60-40 split with men making… Read more »