So You’re Tired of Hearing About “Rape Culture”?

 

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TRIGGER WARNING: The following includes descriptions, photos, and video that may serve as a trigger for victims of sexual violence. Please advise when sharing.

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Publisher’s Note: Comments on this post will be heavily moderated.

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Someone asked me today, “What is ‘rape culture’ anyway? I’m tired of hearing about it.”

Yeah, I hear ya. I’m tired of talking about it. But I’m going to keep talking about it because people like you keep asking that question.

Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and though there are dozens of witnesses, no one says, “Stop.”

Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and though there are dozens of witnesses, they can’t get anyone to come forward.

Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and adults are informed of it, but no consequences are doled out because the boys “said nothing happened.”

Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and we later find out that their coaches were “joking about it” and “took care of it.” 

Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and even though there is documentation of the coaching staff sweeping it under the rug, they get to keep their jobs.

Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and one of the coaches involved in the cover-up threatens a reporter – saying, “You’re going to get yours. And if you don’t get yours, somebody close to you will.” – but the town is more worried about keeping their coaching talent than his integrity.

Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, take pictures of the process, and it becomes a source of ridicule along social networks, whitewashing the crime with hashtags.

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Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and then joke about it on video – saying, “She is so raped,” “They raped her quicker than Mike Tyson!”, “They raped her more than the Duke lacrosse team!”, and she was “deader than Trayvon Martin.” – while everyone else laughs. (Warning: this video will make you sick to your stomach.)

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Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and the town is more concerned with preserving their football program than the fact that their children are attacking others without remorse.

Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and the mainstream media laments the fact that their “promising futures” have been dashed by their crimes – as though THEY are the victims.

Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and even though she’s been through enough, the 16 year old victim’s name is shared on national television.

Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, but because it happens at a party where both sexes were drinking, complete strangers on the internet argue ferociously that she is to blame for being attacked.

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Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and members of the community issue death threats against the victim.

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Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and it is documented across social media channels, and the media informs us that the takeaway is to be more careful about what we post to social media.

Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and when a cover-up is exposed by a group of hackers, we call them “terrorists” and the culpable “victims.” 

Yeah, I’m talking about Steubenville. Tired of hearing about it? Ok, let’s talk about something else.

Rape culture is when the Steubenville is far from the first instance of athletic clubs covering up sexual violence allegations. See: SanduskyMichigan State 2010Arizona State 2008University of Colarado 2006University of Iowa 2008Lincoln High School 2012University of Montana 2012Marquette 2011, plus this research (and there’s more to find if you dig)

Rape culture is when universities across the country do not report rape to the police, but handle the matter via “honor boards” – ultimately shielding perpetrators from criminal consequences.

Rape culture is when universities threaten to expel a student for speaking out about her rape (without ever identifying her attacker) because it’s harassment to talk about her suffering.

Rape culture is when a comedian has a long history of making jokes about rape and sexual assault, is defended from backlash by the comic community, and doesn’t lose his fan base.

Rape culture is when a journalist says this

I think that the entire conversation is wrong. I don’t want anybody to be telling women anything. I don’t want men to be telling me what to wear and how to act, not to drink. And I don’t, honestly, want you to tell me that I needed a gun in order to prevent my rape. In my case, don’t tell me if I’d only had a gun, I wouldn’t have been raped. Don’t put it on me to prevent the rape.

… and the public responds with this

 

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Rape culture is when politicians don’t understand how requiring a transvaginal ultrasound of a rape victim seeking an abortion is like raping her all over again.

Rape culture is when political candidates say that God sometimes intends rape, and that some girls just “rape easy,” and that “legitimate rape” does not result in pregnancy… and do not lose the backing of their party or party leaders.

Rape culture is when a speaker at a political convention makes a rape joke about a sexual violence victim advocate, and he brings the house down with laughter.

Rape culture is when we spend all our time telling women to avoid being raped by modifying their behavior, inferring blame back onto the victim.

Rape culture is when stunning displays of privilege and willful ignorance combine to create this:

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and this:

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Rape culture is when a woman speaks out about rape culture, and gets subjected to this.

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Rape culture is when we see ads like these on a far too frequent basis:
belvedere-ad
rape-jump
gross
friendzonedrink

dominos

Rape culture is when you’re tired of hearing about “rape culture” because it makes you uncomfortable, as your attempt to silence discourse on the subject means we never raise enough awareness to combat it – and that’s part of why it sticks around.

So yeah, I’m sorry you’re tired of hearing about it. But I wouldn’t expect us to shut up anytime soon. Nor should we.

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Originally published on RantAgainstTheRandom.com

UPDATE: At the author’s request, we will not be publishing comments which caveat the discussion of rape culture with false rape accusation concerns. There is a reason for this, which you can read here

About Lauren Nelson

Lauren Nelson blogs at Rant Against The Random, a collection of the impulsive rants. "It's going to be random, opinionated, and, at times, utter nonsense. Be prepared."

Comments

  1. Lauren, I saw your post earlier today and posted it everywhere. Best explanation of rape culture I’ve ever seen. Don’t worry about the naysayers, and there will be many. There are millions of people who do get it, and are fed up, and appreciate your words. Hopefully more will. THANK YOU.

  2. Joanna Schroeder says:

    Lauren, you are one of my heroes. Keep up the good fight. We will reduce sexual violence in our lifetime.

  3. Gint Aras says:

    Lauren, I am offering you the highest, most sincere compliment for this article. I am so thankful that I cannot begin to express myself.

  4. Rape culture is when we teach only men that men can stop rape culture whilst not teaching BOTH men and women to stop raping other people wilfully ignoring the millions of men raped by women. Rape culture is when we’ve had excellent stats out for 2 years on the level of rape by envelopment yet the media remains largely silent on the issue. Rape culture is when bringing up male rape victimization, trolls will accuse YOU of being an MRA for caring about both genders instead of one. Rape culture is when we teach little boys to stop rape, but not also little girls. Rape culture harms more than just women, and it shocks me the level of ignorance that exists even with many who fight against rape. We will not end rape without a combined effort to reduce rape against all people regardless of gender, race, belief, etc.

    • Teaching women to stop rape is silly because they are raped all the time. They are blamed for being raped all the time.They are the victims. Please I’m a guy and can we stop this bullshit that women also rape men? Yeah that happen but its very very very very rare. Millons of men raped by women? What a f*cking bullshit.

      If we want to stop this rape culture, we have to focus to stop MAN for raping woman. yeah, MAN. and I’m a man.

      • trey1963 says:

        So when a guy is blind drunk and a woman takes advantage…….that’s not Rape? Most of the men I’ve spoken to can relate. Men don’t always want sex and men have the same rights of personal body security as women do. As If that comment was not a example of rape culture in one of it’s purer forms.

        Or the White knight threat that makes it easier to comply than to get beaten. An erection is no more consent than a moist crotch is. If verbal enthusiastic consent is the goal it needs to be applied evenly.

      • Please I’m a guy and can we stop this bullshit that women also rape men? Yeah that happen but its very very very very rare.

        Statistics show you are wrong. Rates of woman on man rape are statistically equal to man on woman rape. Even if they weren’t, are you gonna be the asshole who goes to a male rape victim and tells him “Sorry but what was done to you isn’t common enough for anybody to care about?”

        Rape is rape is rape. There is no male or female – only rapist and victim.

        • CL, can you point us to those statistics? I would be interested in reading more of them. I do find it hard to believe that women rape men just as much as men rape women. I do believe women can rape just like men can. I do think that women do rape, just like men. But I don’t believe that women rape as much as men do. I think there would be more men raping other men before there would be women raping men. I also think these situations play out differently and should be acknowledged for that so that each side can explore the unique and troublesome situations that they occur in.

          But all in all, you’re making a point that Lauren made through-out her whole piece. That people infact don’t care. They don’t care when it happens to women. And they don’t care when it happens to men. These “assholes” you speak of come out on both sides, not jsut to men. As evidence by all the people Lauren has pointed out that contribute to “rape culture”. The young men that actually perpuated the rape (did you watch that video? It was upsetting), the coaches and schools that work to cover it up, the people on the internet that blame the victim and say what she should have or shouldn’t have done, the comedians that make the jokes……That they are infact the assholes who are basically telling the victim that what happened to them wasn’t a big deal. You think it’s just men that people don’t care about being raped? Obviously it’s not as evident by what has been articulated above.

          Yes, rape is rape and is a horrible thing to happen whether it’s man or woman. I do not think one part of Lauren’s piece suggests otherwise. But I don’t believe that there is just as much sexual violence committed against men as there is women. I don’t remember the last time I EVER heard a story of a group of women gang-banging a young boy or man. I don’t think this is because it’s never reported. I don’t remember the last time I saw a video of a group of women joking about raping a man or boy or joking about how he was dead. I don’t remember when I’ve ever seen a man’s death sexualized in an advertisement. I don’t think our society looks at rape with fair eyes. Obviously you don’t either. But it’s not just because men’s rape isn’t given the agency you want it to be given, the agency it should be given. Female rape isn’t even given agency either. And whenever someone comes up with an article that talks about rape, it seems that most people only care about themselves the most still.

          The reality is that rape are different situations when they happen to men and to women. Not because one is less than the other or deserves less agency, but because the situations in which women rape or men rape often look very different from one another. And we need to be honest enough to talk about those things and not just say, “this happens to so and so too and everything is equally done to everyone in equal ways and measures!” It’s just not true.

          • http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/

            There, in the report.

            Compare the last 12 months of rape (for women) vs “made to penetrate” in the other sexual violence category (for men), because they didn’t classify envelopment rape (PIV where male is victim) as rape itself.

            The rates for the last 12 months are identical, 1.1%.

            With 80% of the perps of ‘made to penetrate’ being female.

            • Reading through this study, I don’t see men and women equally being raped by each other. Infact your study states this:

              “Across all types of violence, the majority of both female and male victims reported experiencing violence from one perpetrator.
              • Across all types of violence, the majority of female victims reported that their perpetrators were male.
              • Male rape victims and male victims of non-contact unwanted sexual experiences reported predominantly male perpetrators. Nearly half of stalking victimizations against males were also perpetrated by males. Perpetrators of other forms of violence against males were mostly female. ” (I’m not sure what these other forms of violence are though so if someone else picked up on that somewhere, let me know.)

            • Erin:

              Perpetrators of other forms of violence against males were mostly female. ” (I’m not sure what these other forms of violence are though so if someone else picked up on that somewhere, let me know.)

              Would you be surprised if I told you that one of these “other forms of violence against males” in fact were rape?

              You see, CDC doesn’t think a woman having sex with a man (where his genitals are inside either her mouth, her vagina or her anus) without his consent is rape.

              No, they callled it “being made to penetrate someone else” and classified it as “other sexual violence” because classifying it as rape would inflate male rape prevalence estimates:

              Being made to penetrate is a form of sexual victimization distinct from rape that is particularly unique to males and, to our knowledge, has not been explicitly measured in previous national studies. It is possible that rape questions in prior studies captured the experience of being made to penetrate someone else, resulting in higher prevalence estimates for male rape in those studies.

              On page 24 one can see that 79.2% of the men reporting that they “have been made to penetrate someone else” reported a single female perpetrator.

              So, unsurprisingly – the men who have been orally or anally penetrated reports almost exclusively a male perpetrator. The majority of the much larger number of men who report being made to penetrate someone else reports a female perpetrator.

              Read the definitions used for rape and for “being made to penetrate someone else” on page 17 of the report.

            • It seems to me that you want to use the statistics that suit what you already believe to be true. And you want to discriminate against the statistics that don’t fit into what you want to believe is true.

              i also don’t think we are having a conversation about how men rape other men.

              I think you are also wrongly assuming that all the women who are raped are even reporting it. You believe the statistics on the male side are the only ones that have the chance to be skewed. Alot of females don’t report rape. I think it would surprise you how many have suffered a sexual abuse and don’t report it. So I am not really sure what the real story is.

              But I do know that I have never heard of a group of women gang-raping a boy or man but I have heard many times of a group of men gang-raping a girl or woman. And I don’t think it’s because women gang-raping boys is being under reported.

            • I think you are also wrongly assuming that all the women who are raped are even reporting it.

              Those are survey stats, self-report.

              Reported to authorities, I believe an extremely high % of male victims don’t report rape by a woman. For many reasons, not least the one where people don’t think it counts, think they should consider themselves lucky (not violated), or that “women wouldn’t do that”. It’s also institutionally ignored (including by victim services and police).

            • Erin, please answer me this.

              When a woman claims rape, we’re supposed to just accept it straight up.

              But when you’re confronted with the stats on the rape of men by women, you find it acceptable to start questioning.

              Please resolve this inconsistency.

            • “It seems to me that you want to use the statistics that suit what you already believe to be true. And you want to discriminate against the statistics that don’t fit into what you want to believe is true.”

              Honestly Erin I think a lot of people are guilty of this when it comes to these kind of discussions. People have a certain cultural narrative that they adhere to, and whether thats motivated by personal experience or an attempt to push a particular ideology, you frequently see people dismissing or attempting to minimize data that doesn’t fit with the narrative that they’ve created. Its why the 30 cent wage gap theory, which is at best highly misleading persists today. And its why people in this comments section are having a hard time believing that the rates of sexual abuse done to men are as a high as they are.

              To note, Erin I agree with your point that gang rape is primarily done to women by men, and I think there are reasons for that. But this is a specific type of rape and this article isn’t just about that, its about the theory of rape culture in general. Many people find this theory problematic and the people in this comments section are voicing some of those reasons. I haven’t seen anyone here deny the rapes happening to women or react to it with anything other than disgust. Personally, I’ve often found the common feminist approach to rape as well as sexuality in general to be somewhat reductive, but that doesn’t mean I don’t recognize the real problems in this area.

            • Erin:
              You asked this question about the NISVS 2010 Report:

              (I’m not sure what these other forms of violence are though so if someone else picked up on that somewhere, let me know.)

              I answered what is categorized as “other sexual violence” in the NISVS 2010 Report.

              And then I get an accusation that I am talking down the number of female victims?:

              I think you are also wrongly assuming that all the women who are raped are even reporting it. You believe the statistics on the male side are the only ones that have the chance to be skewed. Alot of females don’t report rape. I think it would surprise you how many have suffered a sexual abuse and don’t report it. So I am not really sure what the real story is.

              I haven’t said a word about the statistics for female victims in the NISVS 2010 Report to the effect of questioning them. You, however, seem to question the statistics for male victims in the NISVS 2010 Report.

              But I do know that I have never heard of a group of women gang-raping a boy or man but I have heard many times of a group of men gang-raping a girl or woman. And I don’t think it’s because women gang-raping boys is being under reported.

              You’ve stated this several times in this thread. I have replied once (here) three days ago with a link to a list of cases where groups of women have sexually assaulted (raped) and even in some cases tortured boys and men. Archy also posted a comment 3 days ago in a reply to you listing some links to groups of women sexually assaulting/raping men and/or boys. May I suggest you check those two comments out if you still haven’t heard about any such cases. Note, I am not making any claim that it’s as common as men on femle gang-rape, but to dispell either the notion that it doesn’t happen – and/or the unawareness of the fact that id does happen.

              When we point out that 79.2% of the men who reported being raped (by envelopment) reports a female perpetrator it goes without saying that 20.8% of those men have been raped by a male perpetrator. The NISVS 2010 didn’t include incarcerated people where about 3/4 of the male prisoners who have experienced sexual violence while incarcerated have been victimized by male inmates and male prison officials. 1/4 have been victimized by female prison officials. Female inmates have a slightly higher risk for sexual violence than male inmates and the most common perpetrator is another female inmate.

              All are rape, all are to some extent enabled by rape culture which is what this article is about.

          • The usual source for the claim that similar numbers of men and women are raped is the CDC’s National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey: http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf

            The report does not classify a woman forcing a man to have intercourse with her as rape (despite that being the case in every US state as far as I know), but if you add that number to the number of men the report says where raped you get that a third as many men as women reported having been raped in their life time. Of these 63% reported only a female perpetrator.

            This is a clear gender difference, but much smaller than the traditional narrative would suggest. On the other hand if you look at the number reported for incidents in the last 12 months you find that an equal number of men and women were raped in that time.

            The number of male rape victims may also be understated here because for what the cases the report classified as rape they included both attempted and completed rapes. A women forcing a man to have sex was included under “other sexual violence” where nothing was said about wether attempts were included.

            • JE:

              The number of male rape victims may also be understated here because for what the cases the report classified as rape they included both attempted and completed rapes. A women forcing a man to have sex was included under “other sexual violence” where nothing was said about wether attempts were included.

              That is incorrect. The definition of “being made to penetrate someone else” includes attempts – from page 17:

              Being made to penetrate someone else includes times when the victim was made to,
              or there was an attempt to make them…

          • Erin:

            I don’t remember the last time I EVER heard a story of a group of women gang-banging a young boy or man. I don’t think this is because it’s never reported.

            It probably is because it’s not widely reported to the extent for instance the Cleveland case and now the Steubenville case has been and because these reports never use the word rape. I’ve collected a list of stories of multiple women raping, sexually assaulting and in some cases also torturing male victims in this comment to another article on The Good Men Project.

        • “Statistics show you are wrong. Rates of woman on man rape are statistically equal to man on woman rape. ”

          lol. I dont believe it

        • What stats are you using? The 12 month category had parity @ 1.1% of men n women raped, but for lifetime it was around a Female:4 to male:1 ratio (21.84M women and 7M men reporting forced penetration or forced to penetrate).

          @Erin, it’s far more rare but it does happen occasionally. Don’t know of any where the women did any of the text messaging, etc that the Steu case did, though that is the first I’ve ever heard of anyone treating someone so badly in recent years and being so overly publicized (as in the attackers and bystanders making it public filming it).

          I don’t believe there is parity in sexual violence, no violence has parity in the genders but I do believe simply that there are significant amounts of violence to each gender that we shouldn’t genderize it too much. I believe in proportional awareness n support which currently doesn’t happen as one gender is disproportionately supported in these matters due to absolutely stupid focus-on-the-majority mentality. Hell if we use the same mentality for healthcare most research would go into heart disease because it kills the most instead of dishing out the support where it’s needed.

          • Can you show me an instance when a group of women raped a boy or man? Even if it happens oocasionally (as you stated) surely you have an example or two. I am not saying it doesn’t happen, but in my entire life, i never heard of such a thing. Also, why do gang rapes against boys or men happen less than gang rapes against women or girls? What happens when men get together that causes this type of situation? It’s not like it’s uncommon. We hear these stories regularly of male athletes and abuse of others (usually female). I’ve had alot of men my entire life justify how they talk about women among other men. Women seem to be treated with a different code of “respect” when it’s a group of males bonding togther vs those same males being seperate and in the company of other women.

            I don’t believe your argument is about “proportional awareness”. I don’t think you are neccesarily more “proportionally aware” than the author of this piece either. Lately in these discussions, everything is always equally done to each gender, in equal measure, an equal amount of time….at least when it’s an issue women face. But when it’s an issue men face, it’s no longer “equal” and it’s about how men have greater struggles. “Proportional awareness” does not mean that everything is done to everyone in equal measure, the same exact way at the same exact time. To me, “proportional awareness” means being honest about the suffering of one group who is more at risk for than others in a circumstance.

            I am not claiming or pretending men and boys aren’t raped. However, this exact study shows how many more women are raped and injured and it addresses how men and boys are often raped by other men more so than other women. That is infact what it say’s itself! I didn’t make that up.

            • “I am not claiming or pretending men and boys aren’t raped.”

              You certainly aren’t. You’re essentially saying “it happens to women more, so it doesn’t matter that it happens to men”. When is rape against men going to matter? When male and female rape are at exact parity? When females are getting raped more than males?
              Interesting isn’t it that men are by far the greater victims of murder, should we then take your logic and minimise it when a woman is murdered because it happens far less often?

            • Pete, I never said that it happens more to women so it doesn’t matter what happens to men. What I did say is that we need to be realistic and honest about who is often the greater victim and greater perpetuator so that we can identify what is going on. That is not the same thing as saying it doesn’t matter when it happens to men. If men are greater victims of murder than women, I would like to know why that is. I would like to know why they are murdered more, who is murdering them, and why. That does not mean that I am minimizing the murder of women or children.

              By the way, apparently you are correct that men are greater victims of violent crimes. They also apparently are 10 times more likely than females to commit violent crimes as well. I think we would need to discuss why that is to figure out what is going on. Don’t you?

            • Erin, here are two examples of you requested. That you have never heard of an act does not mean the act does not occur with some frequency. Given your disbelief that women can commit violence against males and that groups of men commit violence against other males, it should come as no surprise then that male survivors would not come forward since it appears no one would believe them. It is very easy to claim males are not victims and women are never abusers if you deliberately ignore and dismiss anything that suggests otherwise.

            • You know Jacob, that is unfair. And it isn’t anything close to what I said. It’s something you hypothsized about me because you didn’t like what I had to say. That’s not cool. I don’t have disbelief that women commit violence against men. I have disbelief about the frequency of these acts. To me, it seems like a heck of a lot of men responding to this article are dismissing the amount of sexual violence that occurs against women. Whenever articles of rape come up, whether they are about men or women, it seems to me that the only people men want to talk about is men. They don’t even want to acknowledge women. Here we have a little 16 year old girl, abused and pissed on. And most of you guys only want to talk about how men are abused.

              Thank you for providing examples. I still stand by the fact that you do not see groups of women gang-raping boys or men to the extent where we see men doing to girls and women. And I think we need to talk about why that is.

            • Erin, I neither dislike or like your comment. Yet if you say that you “never in your entire life” heard of an act, that implies you do not think the act occurs. No one uses “never in my entire life” to mean anything but “that never happens.”

              I do not see anyone dodging talking about female survivors. I do see people questioning a political theory. Yes, many men bring up male survivors on these kinds of threads. Maybe this is why: since the start of 2013, this site has run 18 articles specifically about female rape, most of them in the last week. How many have they run about male rape? Four. And two were posted in the last 24 hours. That is why people keep bringing up male rape. No one wants to talk about it.

            • ““Proportional awareness” does not mean that everything is done to everyone in equal measure, the same exact way at the same exact time. To me, “proportional awareness” means being honest about the suffering of one group who is more at risk for than others in a circumstance.”
              Thank-you for strawmanning my argument. My idea of proportional awareness is to run 2 ads for female victim DV, 1 ad for male victims if men are 1 in 3 victims. But do continue to misrepresent my argument, I haven’t had enough laughter today yet.

              “But when it’s an issue men face, it’s no longer “equal” and it’s about how men have greater struggles. ”
              By who? I report in rape that women are raped more. You’re suggesting I am not being proportionately aware yet I regularly talk about the ratio of rape and give the numbers used to come to such a conclusion.

              “I am not claiming or pretending men and boys aren’t raped. However, this exact study shows how many more women are raped and injured and it addresses how men and boys are often raped by other men more so than other women. That is infact what it say’s itself! I didn’t make that up.”
              That study also does not include “forced to penetrate” under the category of rape. Infact women rape men more than men rape men @ around 61% of men raped reporting a female abuser when you include forced penetration and being forced to penetrate. It pays to look past the cliffnotes of the article and look deeper into the actual numbers, the study has a bias that way.

              Now I’d appreciate it if you actually bothered to read my comments instead of making strawman arguments and misrepresenting my position, I’ve clarified this shit before and it’s getting boring to have to continue doing so.

              and some links from google on women/girls gang raping/abusing.

              h ttp://www.myzimbabwe.co.zw/news/1156-women-rape-men-in-zimbabwe-at-gun-point-then-sell-their-sperms-in-nigeria-and-ghana-for-us14000-per-condom.html
              ht tp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2119237/Men-fear-women-Zimbabwe-spate-rapes-harvest-sperm.html
              ht tp://www.ibtimes.com/six-women-rape-man-death-nigeria-uroko-onoka-wealthy-nigerian-bentue-state-killed-his-six-wives
              ht tp://www.indiatribune.com/index.php?Itemid=400&catid=125:general-news&id=8737:man-raped-by-a-gang-of-girls-claims-perpetrators-shot-mms&option=com_content&view=article
              ht tp://www.winknews.com/Local-Florida/2011-06-01/Online-video-shows-Fort-Myers-boy-being-bullied
              ht tp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-478781/Sick-happy-slap-girl-gang-sexually-abused-teenage-boy-jailed.html

            • I am not claiming or pretending men and boys aren’t raped. However, this exact study shows how many more women are raped and injured and it addresses how men and boys are often raped by other men more so than other women. That is infact what it say’s itself! I didn’t make that up.

              It ONLY counts rape when the victim is penetrated. Since women do not have penises, rape with their vagina does NOT count as rape in that study. You HAVE to take into account “made to penetrarte” (which is under other sexual violence), or you’re actually not looking at rape in the normal sense (sex without consent).

    • Yes. Rape culture is also when someone rapes a young man, and he doesn’t tell anyone because he doesn’t think anyone will believe him. Or he doesn’t even realize it was rape. Or he thinks he’ll be kicked out of the fraternity if he talks about it.

      Rape culture normalizes the violence against men as well as the violence against women.

      • I hope you are not trying to make a point about fraternities with this comment.. they would actually be more supportive than you think. Rape against a man or woman is wrong and if you simply brought more awareness to organizations like greek life and school athletics i feel like you would be starting in the right direction of awareness and prevention.

  5. Jim Maher says:

    This is one of the most succinct indictments of rape culture I’ve ever seen. Well done.

  6. Well done, well done. Well, any guy who have read this article and still said there is no rape culture must have no soul. Those acts are disgusting.

    • Martin Nash says:

      Well, I guess I will h ave to find one of these “soul” things online. Personally I think there is a culture of disrespect and violence which is often displayed via rape.

      It is also present when as a man i am asked why i thought I would walk how through the bad part of town on my own at night.
      It is present when a woman glasses another woman in a pub over a spilled drink.
      It is present in the way we send young men (and increasingly women) off to war when we have given up on politics.
      It is present in the parent who beats on their child because they don’t know how to cope.
      It is present in drivers who ignore the rights of other to be on the road.
      It is present in spouses who beat their partners

      I wholeheartedly agree that rape is intolerable in any circumstance, but it is a single thread of a wider problem. I believe and will work to oppose the culture of violence without dedicating activities to a single subset of this that we have been told is worse than all other up to and including murder.

      • I think the term rape culture is used to define a particular aspect of the overall violence culture vs saying all we live in IS a rape culture.

  7. In the case of Steubenville, and other related cases, I’m curious as to if other crimes, under similar circumstances, are handled in the same way. That is to say, if the football players had assaulted someone and killed them, vandalized or robbed someone/something, been caught with drugs, etc, would they have seen the same protection? If so, I’m not inclined to believe those incidents are actually examples of “rape culture” (wherein rape specifically is considered acceptable) anymore than them getting away with assault would be “assault culture” or them getting a pass on drug possession would be “drug culture”.

    “Rape culture is when we spend all our time telling women to avoid being raped by modifying their behavior, inferring blame back onto the victim.”

    The other option, according to most protest signs, is “tell men not to rape”. Setting aside the male perpetrator model, I still think it stands to reason that the men who do rape either know that what they’re doing is rape (and thus yelling Don’t Rape! at them isn’t going to make a difference) or they don’t understand that what they’re doing is rape.. and opening the discussion about things like healthy consent and boundaries is going to do a lot more good than yelling in their faces.

  8. PursuitAce says:

    The good news is that progressives are becoming more and more in charge at all levels. This problem should get better as time goes by. Although a liberal education system has not seemed to have made enough of an impact to this point.

  9. Rape culture is when men who are raped by women don’t count, or are told that what happened isn’t rape. Rape culture is when people use the false “1 in 4 vs 1 in 33” statistic. Rape culture is every time we talk about women being raped but ignore the men.

    So, Lauren. Why do you support rape culture?

  10. Alex Reynard says:

    I’m not convinced that the Steubenville case is proof of rape culture. Why? Because it seems more plausible to me to blame it on a much wider problem: America’s blind worship of athletes. It’s not just sex crimes athletes get away with. People stubbornly defended Michael Vick, OJ Simpson, Lance Armstrong, etc. Some people will go to incredible lengths finding rationalizations for inexcusable behavior, rather than admit that their hero maybe isn’t a good person after all. There’s literally nothing so horrible that if an athlete was caught red-handed doing it, there wouldn’t be people burying their heads in the sand to avoid acknowledging it. And I’m sure this behavior increases in small towns that treat their football players like demigods.

    I’m not saying I outright deny rape culture, but I don’t think your evidence proves its conclusion. Yes, there are terrible things here, but they’re all things which MOST people would look at and be offended by. The loudest and most prominent voices I’ve always heard on any rape-related situations are the ones condemning it. In the Steubenville case, I saw a small town’s opinion versus an entire country’s. I won’t deny that some people have cruel or ignorant ideas about sexual violence, but I can only consider the idea of rape culture plausible if those voices are a majority. I haven’t seen anything to convince me of that.

  11. Søren Skovbakke says:

    I believe everyone should read this everywhere. It makes me sick to my stomach when I recognize some of these characteristics in the behaviour of my friends. Not that they rape people or anything, they are decent people, but that is the whole point of this rape culture discussion, isn’t it? That it’s a culture, something that’s seeped into the minds of everybody so that very few people question it.
    As a male I have sometimes felt “victimised” and felt accused of not being in control of my own actions because of my gender, but I have lately realized that it’s actually not the gender that is at fault, it’s the culture. That may seem like it’s the most obvious thing, but I believe that a lot of men don’t get that. They are blind to this culture and feel like it is they themselves who are being put at fault.
    That’s at least the way I see it. Thank you for a brilliant article and greetings from Denmark.

  12. I have some more examples left out from the original article:

    Rape culture is thing like this:

    Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

    Mary P Koss in Detecting the Scope of Rape
    A Review of Prevalence Research Methods

    That article has been cited in publications from the CDC, which “incidentally” did classify “being made to penetrate someone else” as not rape in their NISVS 2010 report – with the justification that doing so would inflate male rape victimization numbers:

    Being made to penetrate is a form of sexual victimization distinct from rape that is particularly unique to males and, to our knowledge, has not been explicitly measured in previous national studies. It is possible that rape questions in prior studies captured the experience of being made to penetrate someone else, resulting in higher prevalence estimates for male rape in those studies.

    -page 84.

    Rape culture is saying:

    Only men can stop rape.

    Soraya Chemaly

    Rape culture is blaming a victim for the hurt they are causing the perpetrator simply by being traumatized.

    Rape culture is the willingness to throw other victims under the bus in order to protect oneself from false accusations.

    Rape culture is opposing rape laws because they may result in false accusations:

    By introducing gender neutrality in the law, the government is projecting a falsified image as though there was indeed some semblance of equality in the crimes that are committed against both men and women.

    What relief can a woman expect if on being harassed herself, she finds that her attacker has already filed a case against her in order to protect himself?

    Source: Chandana ChakraAborty, women rights activist

    Rape culture is outright denying the existence of rape victims:

    Rape, as we know, is a crime largely defined as male violence against women, with absolutely no evidence of women as perpetrators. This is in disregard to the Justice Verma recommendations and totally unacceptable,” said leading women rights lawyer Madhu Mehra.

    Source

    Rape culture is they are leery about calling it tape when someone has intercourse with someone against their voiced non-consent:

    He [Ian] reminded her (they’d known each other for a while) that intercourse was off limits. But at one point, she suddenly straddled Ian, grabbed his erection, and slid his penis inside of her. He ejaculated within seconds.

    I’m leery about applying the term too quickly to Ian’s story

    Hugo Schwyzer

    Rape culture is joking that the apparent rise in reported cases of statutory rape of male pupils by female tutors are due to teenaged boys looking better these days:

    Has adult female attraction for young boys always been around, and is only now becoming public? Certainly the bulk of teen boys are not at the peak of their beauty, which may have something to do with it; has the prevalence of Retin-A, the importance of grooming and weight-lifting, distasteful as the question may be, had anything to do with the strange up-swing?

    Source

    Followed up by a comment from Erin Ryan Gold (who not long after became an editor at Jezebel) making the first comment which puts the blame for statutory rape one the victims:

    This problem would go away if teachers would just stop being so hot.

    Rape culture is saying it’s not really rape when it’s done to a man:

    That is, the meaning of a woman giving oral sex to a man who is asleep is profoundly different from the meaning of a man giving oral sex to a woman who is asleep.

    Nicola Gavey in her book Just Sex?: The Cultural Scaffolding Of Rape

    • Thank you so much for this comment Tamen. From what I can tell rape culture isn’t about addressing rape overall its about addressing male against female rape by nearly any means necessary.

      By introducing gender neutrality in the law, the government is projecting a falsified image as though there was indeed some semblance of equality in the crimes that are committed against both men and women.
      Arguing against gender neutral laws on the grounds that “women have it worse”…..

      Rape, as we know, is a crime largely defined as male violence against women, with absolutely no evidence of women as perpetrators.
      ….Outright denying the existence of women as perpetrators of this crime…..

      Rape culture is they are leery about calling it tape when someone has intercourse with someone against their voiced non-consent:
      ….Moving the goalposts when the genders are swapped (b/c serious I dare anyone to say that if a man had intercourse with a woman against her voiced non-consent Hugo would say that he would be “leery” about calling it rape)…..

      That is, the meaning of a woman giving oral sex to a man who is asleep is profoundly different from the meaning of a man giving oral sex to a woman who is asleep.
      …..Changing the significance of an act when the genders are swapped (I may have to contact person and ask them to explain what is so profound about the difference in m to f oral versus f to m oral that one counts as rape but the other doesn’t).

      I think its pretty unhealthy when a term meant to give name to something that perpetuates such a horrible crime is used in ways that just about contradicts itself.

    • That article has been cited in publications from the CDC, which “incidentally” did classify “being made to penetrate someone else” as not rape in their NISVS 2010 report – with the justification that doing so would inflate male rape victimization numbers:…

      wow, just wow
      excellent post tamen, excellent post

    • Adam McPhee says:

      This should have been a comment of the day, or even an article unto itself.

  13. None of this indicates a ‘rape culture’ and the article writer apparently has trouble differentiating art and humour from reality, judging by the comments directed at advertising, fashion and photography.

    Rape is a crime.
    The overwhelming majority of people are disgusted by that crime.
    These boys were arrested, tried, convicted and jailed.

    Clearly our culture as a whole does not condone or encourage rape then and frankly, painting male sexuality as dangerous and all boys as potential rapists, or talking about ‘toxic masculinity’ is as harmful as anything else.

    You want a rape culture? Look to Egypt or Mali or back a few hundred years.

    ‘Just tell men not to rape women’ was astoundingly ham-fisted and offensive, to men. Men already know not to rape. Painting the whole gender in such a way is as offensive as playing into urban crime stereotypes and saying someone should ‘Just tell black people not to steal’.

    Not that I agree entirely with the MRM types but when your response to them questioning the concept is to appropriate them as part of your ‘evidence’ of rape culture, you’re not supporting your case but you are making theirs by not engaging with their counter argument.

    The boys were concentrated upon in the reports because the victim is supposed to be protected so a prurient interest in the public space sought more info and there was only one place it could come from. Fox News while undeniably a bunch of evil fuckwits are likely incompetent in this instance, not malicious.

    People naturally defend their friends when they’re accused and think the best of them. They get angry that they’re being attacked – rightly or not – and spring to their defense. Social media makes this public and then the trolls stick their oar in as well and aggravate already flaring emotions.

    Cognitive bias is a bitch, clearly.

    • Clearly our culture as a whole does not condone or encourage rape…
      Well if you consider the circumstances under which they committed the crime in the first place I think there actually are cultural influences that contribute to rape. Namely the superstar status that athletes in enjoy.

      • Man and women who are considered heroes or celebrities are given a lot of leeway on some things (and less on others). Drug abuse for example.

      • TheBadMan says:

        Their superstar status would apply to any type of crime they committed, not just specifically rape.

  14. The usual diversionary arguments I see. In particular, the old favourite of ‘it happens to men too’. Yes it does and, while I have every sympathy for the victims, this article is not about them. Men are not oppressed by rape culture and rape culture does not make attacks on men more likely. Rape culture is about the malestream media portraying women as nothing more than bodies for men to use. It’s about men making jokes about rape and sexual abuse (interestingly occasionally about male rape as well as female, for some reason). And it’s about decent men not standing up for women and girls and telling men who harass or who make rape jokes that that’s not acceptable. The message for male allies of women is to stand up and be counted. Even just a ‘that’s not cool, dude’ or ‘how would you feel if someone said that to your sister/mother/girlfriend?’ has an impact.

    Rape culture has to be challenged by all of us, women and men both, and regardless of whether a rape perpetrator is supposed to be some hero or not.

    • So with what you just said in mind let me ask you something.

      Does rape culture apply to all rapes, is it meant to apply to all rapes, or is it meant to only apply to certain rapes.?

      Other than the fact that nearly every example of rape given in the post is male against female I don’t see any indication that rape culture is explicitly about male against female rape. Now if she is specifically talking about rape culture and how it influences male against female rape than it would be nice to have some sort of clarification.

    • Martin Nash says:

      My stance on this in general (violence culture) is in a comment further up but I would like to addresss:
      ” Men are not oppressed by rape culture and rape culture does not make attacks on men more likely.”

      Talk to any man about the fear of going to jail, listen to police making threats to suspects, hear people discussing male prisons. It is ALL about the rape and the threat of it. This is not to diminish any of the other remarks about rape culture but to show that this is used against men too, in just as disturbing ways. Once the argument is framed to realise that men can be and are victims too the current discussions on rape culture will get a lot more support.

      • “Once the argument is framed to realise that men can be and are victims too the current discussions on rape culture will get a lot more support.”

        On one hand, I understand wanting to be equally represented in a discussion. (Although I wonder if all of us aren’t sometimes collectively blindsided in an attempt to keep all things equal we fail to see that things infact aren’t all equal and deserve discussion in their own right without it meaning we are ignoring someone else.)

        On the other hand, it makes me sad that you seem to be suggestiong that men will only care about rape when it’s something they are a victim of. I also don’t think Lauren’s piece suggests that men aren’t victims. But that women are victims of rape more often and are often also dually blamed for their own rapes more than a man who was raped would be. When have you ever heard someone say to a man who was raped that he was actually to blame because he should have done x,y or z. I see this regularly thrown out to women who were raped by men and women alike.

        Also when was the last time you saw a group of females gang-bang and abuse a young man? How many cases of this do we see with a group of men gang-banging and abusing a young woman? Are women and men really equally raped in measure? I’m not convinced they are. Does that mean that when men are raped it doesn’t deserve to be addressed or it isn’t just as terrible? Of Course not. But I think that men are bigger victims of rape from other men more than they are victims of rape from women. And I think women are greater victims of rape and sexual violence from men as well. There is a reason why we see cases of groups of men abusing one young girl or woman and we don’t see the same displayed through women gang-banging or raping a young boy or man. I don’t think it’s just because it’s under reported.

        • “When have you ever heard someone say to a man who was raped that he was actually to blame because he should have done x,y or z.”

          Many male rape survivors have been told they wanted it, that it wasn’t rape, or that they should have been able to stop it because men are bigger and stronger than women.

          • Drew, again, what about the men that are raped by other men? We seem to be excluding an important part of the conversation infavor of making the case that women rape men because men rape women.

            Still, I don’t see the level of spite and virtrol for men that are rape victims that I seen for women or young girls that are victims. Even from men and women alike, these young women that are raped are told that they shouldn’t have done this or that, that it was basically their fault, that they are sluts. It’s so strange to me the level of hate we have soemtiems for even female victims of rape. I do not see that level of hate directed to men or boys that have been victims themselves. Maybe I’m biased but than again, maybe I’m not.

            • Men who are raped by other men are rape victims and deserve the same treatment and protections that any rape victim deserves.

              I’m not sure what you mean about “making the case that women rape men because men rape women”. Are you saying that I (or someone else here) is saying the reason women rape men is retributive? That’s a weird stance and I haven’t, and haven’t seen anyone here, take that stance.

              You’re right, men who are raped don’t face the same hate and vitriol that women who are raped face. Men who are raped are ridiculed, told they aren’t real men, are told they should have “manned up” and “handled themselves”, they’re ignored flatly or have trouble finding psychological help. If a man is raped by a woman, he’s told he must have wanted it.

              So yes, both are bad. Neither has it worse. But what you’re doing is only looking at how female victims are treated badly and saying that male victims are not treated badly in the same way, therefore (it seems) female victims have it categorically worse. Which simply isn’t the case.

            • Well Drew, I don’t remember saying that men who are raped by other men don’t infact deserve the same treatment and protections that any rape victim deserves.

              No, I am not saying that women rape men in retributive. In these discussions, I am pointing out that most of the men responded by focusing on women that rape men. They rarely, if ever, mention about other men raping men. So it turns into a gender war. Because men rape women, it seems that a lot of men here only want to talk about women that rape men. They do not want to acknowledge the men that rape other men. After someone pointed at a statistic to me, I looked it up myself. Men are victims of murder apparently more than women. However, men are also 10 times more likely to commit violent crimes than women.

              I do see a disparagy in how male victims are treated vs female victims. When a woman is raped, both men and women still call her a slut, she’s told that it was her own fault and given advice about what she could have done to prevent it. She is basically blamed for her own rape. Whenever I’ve seen male rape cases highlighted in the media, I simply don’t see that same behavior. I don’t see men getting mocked or ridiculed the same degree that I see it happem to female rape victims. So I disagree with you that everything is equal.

              But don’t assume this means that I believe that when men are raped, it is less important. That is the mistake you are making about my argument.

            • The reason so many men respond by talking about female on male rape is that rape is always presented (by feminists) as being a women’s issue. It’s always talked about in the context of “men raping women”. Its used to further the “women are always victims and men are always perpetrators” viewpoint.

              It doesn’t matter that you don’t see men getting mocked or ridiculed to the same degree that you see it happen to female rape victims. It does, and your personal bias doesn’t change that fact.

            • Speaking as a male survivor, I can say we most certainly receive the same level of spite and vitriol as female survivors. We are told that we liked it, that we are gay, that the female rapist is really the victim, that our erections equal consent, that we could have fought back, just to name a few. We are harassed, threatened, forced to leave our schools, homes, and neighborhoods. We are fodder for comedy, and as has happened numerous on this site and on this thread, we are accused of being potential rapists while people deny we can even be raped.

              The notion that male survivors have it easy is just plan ridiculous, and your comment and total lack of a response from feminists to challenge, it shows precisely why framing sexual violence as a gendered crime is so problematic.

            • I didn’t say male survivors have it easy.

        • Martin Nash says:

          “On the other hand, it makes me sad that you seem to be suggestiong that men will only care about rape when it’s something they are a victim of. ”

          My point is more along the lines of “when the denial that it can happen to men, and the realisation that it is only a small subset of men who are perpetrators, we can get more support”

          “When have you ever heard someone say to a man who was raped that he was actually to blame because he should have done x,y or z. I see this regularly thrown out to women who were raped by men and women alike.”

          I refer back to my earlier comment on this thread. I dont see this as rape and rape only, i see this as violence. And to answer from that perspective. I went out one night with nail varnish on to a rave. I then got 7 kinds of crap beat out of me. The general retort was “why the hell did you wear make up?!”

          “Also when was the last time you saw a group of females gang-bang and abuse a young man?”
          Luckily I have never seen anyone gang (or singularly) raped. I have seen waiters at “ladies nights” surrounded by middle aged women and pinched til they bruised. I have alos seen simialr happen to women.

          While not rape, this recent article indicates women are perfectly capable of ganging up on men: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-21265337

          Both sexes are perfectly capable of using violence and control to get what they want. Maybe what we want is different. I am just not willing to say raping a woman to get sex is worse thatn murdering a man to get money. Violence not rape is the problem.

          • “My point is more along the lines of “when the denial that it can happen to men, and the realisation that it is only a small subset of men who are perpetrators, we can get more support””

            I don’t remember anyone denying that rape doesn’t happen to men. I think the case is that rape infact does happen more to women and young girls and why that is.

            You also have guys on this forum making a case that women are just as bad as men. Not that women or men are a much smaller subset of rapers.

            “I went out one night with nail varnish on to a rave. I then got 7 kinds of crap beat out of me. The general retort was “why the hell did you wear make up?!””

            And who beat you up for that? Men or women?

            “Luckily I have never seen anyone gang (or singularly) raped. I have seen waiters at “ladies nights” surrounded by middle aged women and pinched til they bruised. I have alos seen simialr happen to women.”

            I bet most of us haven’t actually seen someone gang or singularly raped. However most of us know and hear the stories that are circulating. I believe you took my comment about having see rape overly literarily.

            I am also confused as to why you are comparing a situation you experience with exotic dancers to actual gang rape. I never made a case for women that visit male exotic dancers or how they do or don’t treat them. I am sure there are many female exotic dancers or escorts that have gotten their fair share of unfair brusing and hurtful behavior from middle-aged men. I am comparing gang rape to gang rape. Lets keep it in perspective.

            “While not rape, this recent article indicates women are perfectly capable of ganging up on men: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-21265337”

            And if you google “Two men kill woman” you will come up with a ton of hits. So again, I ask, where have we ever heard of women gang raping boys or men like we hear about men doing the same to women.

            “Both sexes are perfectly capable of using violence and control to get what they want. Maybe what we want is different. I am just not willing to say raping a woman to get sex is worse thatn murdering a man to get money. Violence not rape is the problem.”

            Yes, both sexes ARE perfectly capable of using violence and control to get what they want. I am just unwilling to say that men and women commit the same acts , the same exact ways, for the same reasons, the same amount of times. For every one story you could find of two women killing a man, you can find 10 of two men killing a woman. I am not saying that women don’t kill or aren’t capable of it. I am saying that men and women don’t commit certain crimes in equal measure. And there is a reason for that. It’s something we need to be discussing to figure out why men or women act out in these ways and hopefully preventing them in the future. But I am afraid it’s an underbelly that most don’t want to explore.

        • Personally speaking I wouldnt care much about focussing on male-rapist, female-victim even if that were the minority case and the opposite were the majority. The problem I personally have is that the framing (in articles about rape culture, generally speaking) is done in a way that erases, minimises or at the best anomalises male rape victims (imo) .I don’t think this article has that dynamic but most discussions in feminist spaces do and i think it is worthy of criticism.

          ” When have you ever heard someone say to a man who was raped that he was actually to blame because he should have done x,y or z. ”
          How many male rape victims do you know? I would say a huge chunk of them aren’t even recognised as rape victims, so blaming them doesn’t even come into the picture. Reaction to prison rape is a very good example of how people blame male rape victims for their own rape

        • But I think that men are bigger victims of rape from other men more than they are victims of rape from women.

          And you’d only be right in places that DEFINE rape as being the penetrated party.

          If penetration needs to occur to the victim, then 93% of male victims have a male perpetrator. If penetration can occur to the perpetrator (rape by envelopment), then 75% of male victims have a female perpetrators.

        • On the other hand, it makes me sad that you seem to be suggestiong that men will only care about rape when it’s something they are a victim of.
          That’s an ugly reflection of what men have been told by some of the very people that bring up rape culture. Told that they will care about violence against men when men start caring about violence against women. Now of course this is a vicious cycle and the only way to truly break it is for people on both sides of that argument to stop arguing and start caring. However that’s a bit tough when both sides insist that the only way to break the cycle is for the other side to stop arguing and start caring, while they themselves are free to keep arguing.

          But that women are victims of rape more often and are often also dually blamed for their own rapes more than a man who was raped would be.
          I’m not sure that is true. And the reason I say that is because even in this day and age there are people who recognize rape against women as a crime will turn around and say that when the genders are reverse it is NOT rape.

          So I guess its easy to say that women are blamed for their rapes more often than men are when you start off by stacking the definition of rape so that the only male victims that count are the ones raped by other males (who usually described as “deserving to be raped because if they were real men they would fought off the rapist or because of whatever they did that landed them in prison, etc..” BTW).

        • Erin:

          When have you ever heard someone say to a man who was raped that he was actually to blame because he should have done x,y or z.

          That reads as an assertion that it doesn’t happen. On what basis you you make such a general assertion?

          I can tell you I have heard that been told to me. I’ve been told that I should’ve pushed her off. Which incidentally wouldn’t prevented my rape at all since I was asleep when she mounted me and when I woke up the rape were already in progress. I have heard that been told to for instance James Landrith who published an article titled Male Rape Survivors and Victim-Blaming on this site. I suggest you read it. And then you should read this and this and read through the comments he has gotten huffington Post when he was interviewed by them.

          Perhaps you remember the Shawn Hornbeck who was abducted in 2002 and was missing in for 4 years. Do you remember Bill O’Reilley saying “There was an element here that this kid liked about his circumstances. And it gets more harrowing because the police found child porn on Devlin’s computer. – blaming on national television an underage kid abducted and sexually assaulted by this Devlin for not being good enough at escaping from his abductor/rapist.

          Adn the we have a unique minimizing response to male victims. Like here where a man relates how a woman attempted to violently rape him. The most rated comment reads:

          “The sad part is, no one will ever ask you what you were wearing and how much you had to drink.”

          That’s the sad part? That’s more sad than th actual rape attempt? How devoid of empathy can one possibly be?
          Another commenter called Laura wrote:Don’t stick your dick in crazy, Mike!

          Another commenter advices Mike to let the perpetrator gloss it over and that she probably won’t do it again because the rape attempt was humiliating for the perpetrator!

          Another commenter writes:

          I wonder how much talk of rough sex led up to this string of events.

          Am I blaming the victim here when I say “Don’t lead on crazy”?

          • “How devoid of empathy can one possibly be?”

            I would have hoped that through my postings you would have seen quite the opposite. This comment was really hurtful. I think the ultimate problem is neither side feels cared about.

            I just don’t see the point in talking to you further about this subject or reading anything you’d like me to read. You obviously do not respect me and have painted me unkindly instead of attempting to work with me in a discussion even if we disagree on certain points.

            • ht tp://thoughtcatalog.com/2012/no-means-no-no-matter-who-says-it/
              Read down to the comment by w817, Tamen wasn’t saying you Erin were lacking empathy, but the commenter w817 was.

            • Archy read it right. The “How devoid of empathy can one possibly be?” was directed at the person who told a victim of attempted rape that at least no one will ask him what he wore.
              I find that comment from w817 to be akin to telling the Steubenvilke victim: “At least you didn’t get a black eye” – absolutely disgusting.

              People with empathy would think that the sad part was the attempted rape – not that the victim avoids some additional harm.

    • Mr Supertypo says:

      “The usual diversionary arguments I see. In particular, the old favourite of ‘it happens to men too’. Yes it does and, while I have every sympathy for the victims, this article is not about them.”

      If it is about rape culture, then it is also about them. Rape is not a women issue, its a human issue. Everybody is at risk for rape so it is disingenuous presenting it as a exclusive phenomena, while its not.

      ” The message for male allies of women is to stand up and be counted. Even just a ‘that’s not cool, dude’ or ‘how would you feel if someone said that to your sister/mother/girlfriend?’ has an impact.”

      Male allies? allies for what or against what? and what about female allies? either you are for or against rape culture, there are no allies. And a indirect way to support rape culture is to buy the bogus binary paradigm ,men vs women. Thats just a cultural construct, a script to play in front of a applauding audience purely for entertainment. To kill rape culture, we need to cut lose with the cultural construct of gender binary doctrine. And start to operate from there. Otherwise we will do anything but solve the R problem.

      “Rape culture has to be challenged by all of us, women and men both, and regardless of whether a rape perpetrator is supposed to be some hero or not.”

      And that include stop dismissing and ridicule male rape victims, stop and refusal of the binary thinking that still dominate the subject and isolate the “preachers” who still abide to the ideology.

    • Sue H:

      The usual diversionary arguments I see. In particular, the old favourite of ‘it happens to men too’. Yes it does and, while I have every sympathy for the victims, this article is not about them.

      This silencing and vilification of male victims calling out the ways our culture and society minimize, hides, denies, jokes about and victim-blame (aka rape culture) male rape victims are yet another example of rape culture.

      Men are not oppressed by rape culture and rape culture does not make attacks on men more likely.

      The idea that having sex with a man without getting his consent isn’t rape and all it’s variations (erection=consent, men are stronger than women, men always want sex) is a part of rape culture and it very much makes male rape more likely.

      I have every sympathy for the victims

      I am not particulary convinced about that – at best it seems like that sympathy is contingent on male victims shutting up about how rape culture impact them.

  15. Mr Supertypo says:

    One support rape culture when they impose it as a women issue. In reality thats bogus, because rape culture is a human issue. And it should be presented as such.

    So no more, teach men not to rape, but teach people not to rape.

    So we most degenderize the concept of rape, because it can happen and it may have happen to all of us.

  16. Lauren, I really like your piece and insights. Thank you so much.

  17. Men and boys can be raped, too, ….

    Wasn’t there a recent incident at Bronx Science HS about some athletes hazing younger members of the team by threatening to digitally violate them ( via the rectum)? Wouldn’t that fit onto the spectrum of “rape culture”? The big and strong and more senior alpha males keep down or haze the incoming freshman athletes? A younger weaker naive boy is roughly equivalent in status to a drunk “loose” girl “who is asking for it”. Aren’t both of these kinds of people meant to submit and be silent about their abuse so that the alphas can maintain their god-like status?

    Debate away…

    Great article BTW!

  18. Dallas is hosting a Dallas Men Against Abuse rally…involving many athletes. I came across it this morning and am interested in seeing how impactful it is and what the involvement looks like. It would be neat to see more awareness by high profile athletes. http://www.dallasmenagainstabuse.com/

  19. Rape culture is also when a man gets raped by women/ a woman

  20. I really would like an explanation from either the author, Lauren Nelson, or GMP to the following:

    Lauren Nelson says: “Rape culture is when universities threaten to expel a student for speaking out about her rape (without ever identifying her attacker) because it’s harassment to talk about her suffering.”

    Following the link provided takes one to a story about Landon Gambril, a student who says she was raped by a fellow student who at the time she was in an intimate relationship with. She has not reported this to the police. She did report it to the university authorities, who decided that there was no evidence to support her claim. After the alleged rape she continued to date, and sleep with, her boyfriend. At the end of the relationship she proceeded to stalk and harass her former boyfriend, until universtiy authorities warned her to cease.

    I’d like to know; can the author or GMP’s editors explain to me the ‘rape culture’ evidenced by this case? Further, can either explain how they would introduce changes that would result in this case being handled differently? I would genuinely like to know.

  21. The rape culture in America is a subset of the overall abuse of power culture that we live in.

    Bullying is another subset.

    Economic victimization is another.

    There are a host of others as well.

    And we can all do things to stand up for what is right when people overpower others.

  22. these boys were trained, by their schools, to assault, intimidate and physically dominate other people while their friends and family sit on the side lines drinking beer and yelling abuse at the opposition, and where then treated like royalty for it.

    In this case they then went on to gang rape a girl. but it could as easily have resulted in them beating another young man to death, or one of them drunk driving and killing someone, and both the locals and media would have had the same reaction.

    so is it really a rape culture or just a violence culture, where those particularly good at it get free pass, that this time led to rape?

    • I strongly suggest looking at this video, which kind of addresses the way that general acceptance of violence and rape culture interact. Also, read the article, Roots, by Julie Gillis to look at how violence and a culture that doesn’t emphasize empathy are at the underpinnings of a culture that excuses sexual violation. Also, there’s this article on toxic masculinity (which is basically what you were talking about when you were talking about the boys being “trained by their schools to assault, intimidate and physically dominate”).

      So the question is: why did these boys, who were raised in a culture of violence and toxic masculinity, rape Jane Doe? Why didn’t they violate and humiliate Jane Doe in some other way that wasn’t sexual? (Not that that would have been better, but it wouldn’t have been rape). Or, heck, why didn’t they beat each other up in a brawl? – The answer, broadly speaking, is rape culture.

      Not every individual is influenced by culture in exactly the same way, which I kind of addressed in my article here. (I’m just all about the links today). – The thing about “rape culture” and “violence culture” and all the other philosophical and anthropology and sociology theories out there is that none of them is every going to fit all the time. That’s the nature of the game…no one theory will explain every human interaction. But the exceptions do not necessarily disprove the theory.

      • But the exceptions do not necessarily disprove the theory.

        That does seem to be the kind of theory we are talking about.

        • wellokaythen says:

          I could take the theory more seriously if it were more objectively testable, for example if there was a test that included some degree of falsifiability. A good basic test for the existence of something would have to have “Yes” and “No” as possible results. Could we theoretically test an event for the presence of rape culture and discover that rape culture did not play a role? Could we develop a test for rape culture that could come up with result of “not rape culture”? The way that Rape Culture has been elevated to the status of fundamentalist truth, I’m not so sure that’s possible. It seems to be something that is found everywhere, because the theory doesn’t really allow for it to NOT be found everywhere.

          As a political ideology, Rape Culture Theory is very powerful and understandably impatient when it comes to analysis or when it encounters anything that looks like resistance. Theories become better theories when people try to disprove them, but when the theory is a political ideology trying to disprove the theory looks like open hostility, heresy, distraction from the mission, etc. I can’t help but noticing, as Marcus mentions elsewhere, how much of the discussion of rape and rape culture centers on “belief,” as in “why can’t you believe this is true?”

          As a political ideology, its power is not just in the hands of feminists, which is something that feminists ought to take note of. I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but the Steubenville defendants’ defense actually tried to use rape culture as a defense. They didn’t use that phrase, but they used some of the basic ideas. Their defense attorneys really played up the power of rape culture over their clients, arguing that their clients didn’t even know what they did was wrong, because of how brainwashed they were by the way that their upbringing treated rape. They went so far as to suggest that their clients were innocent precisely because of rape culture. So, the theory of rape culture may actually be used by rape defenders to excuse rape. THIS is another reason why it’s good to have some sort of way to test the limits of the rape culture theory – otherwise, it can be used against itself.

      • “So the question is: why did these boys, who were raised in a culture of violence and toxic masculinity, rape Jane Doe? Why didn’t they violate and humiliate Jane Doe in some other way that wasn’t sexual? (Not that that would have been better, but it wouldn’t have been rape). Or, heck, why didn’t they beat each other up in a brawl? – The answer, broadly speaking, is rape culture.”

        I think it’s highly likely that they have violated and humiliated other people on other ways that weren’t sexual. It’s just not national news that when football players beat up other students or humiliate them with insults.

        • Drew, maybe they have, maybe they haven’t. We don’t know. What we do know is what they did to this young girl was sexual humilation. Why be more eager to talk about what might have been rather than what has been and why it has been? Maybe they have violated others in ways that weren’t sexual. But what they did to *this* girl was sexual humilation.

          • When did I say that what they did *wasn’t* sexual humiliation?

            Obviously you didn’t understand what I said. So, I’ll try again.

            Lets say, for the sake of argument, these boys did beat up, intimidate, and otherwise humiliate or terrorize other people in non-sexual ways. Doesn’t that mean we live in “violence culture” or “intimidation culture” or “humiliation culture”?

            Looking at this particular incident and saying “They raped her instead of beating her up, hence rape culture” is flawed logic when you’re ignoring all the people they beat up instead of raping.

      • Miss Kae Oz says:

        Why did they use sex to abuse her?

        That is part of our rape culture. Men are often sent the message that sex is power.Sex is manliness. Real men get sex wherever, however. Real men want sex all the time. They want to reinforce their manhood, they use sex and violence. This is the sexism in our current rape culture that hurts boys and men.

        • I’m not sure that the link between sex and power is something that men just get from culture, it may have a biological component as well. There was a study done on mice that showed how closely violence, sex, and dominance are related in the brain and researchers think that human brains may work similarly. Theres even a suggest that violent sex offenders may have a mis-wiring in their brains:
          http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110209/full/news.2011.82.html

          But this is nothing new, lots of psychologists have made the link between power (and or violence) and sex, and whether we like it or not I don’t think we can just blame it on a rape culture. Of course I”m not excusing rapists or saying people can’t overcome this side of themselves, but I think there are plenty of other influences at play here aside from our culture and I rarely see rape culture theory talk about this. Personally, I think even the link people make between getting sex and our definitions of manhood may have an evolutionary basis, not just a cultural one.

        • “Men are often sent the message that sex is power.’

          True, and women are often sent the same message. “How to get the looks to drive him wild” or “Don’t just give it away for free!” or “Wear this and he’ll be eating out of your hand” or “How to train your man with sex”.

          It’s destructive and unfortunate that both men and women learn that sex is a power game rather than a mutually pleasurable experience to be shared.

  23. Stanchion_excelsior says:

    I agree with everything in the article, except the very last part about the pizza restaurant ad (which in no way invalidates the rest of the article) “No is the new yes” clearly refers to the “customer is always right”-culture changing to “we take pride in our food so no substitutions” and nothing to do with rape culture. Making it kind of a weak note to end on…

    • The reason this is included is probably because the pizza place got a LOT of flak for this phrase. Even if it had a different meaning, it has a very sensitive connotation, and I believe they removed the phrase immediately after the outrage.

    • sister_h says:

      “no is the new yes” is an integration of “no means yes” (in the context of sexual harassment and rape) and the perennial fashion slogan “red (or some other color) is the new black.” It’s very sly and brings sex (and rape) into the ad without appearing to do so directly. It’s called a sexual innuendo.

      • Mostly_123 says:

        ‘That’ is the new ‘this’…

        Nothing is everything is everything is nothing.

        It’s not trying to be sly or misogynistic- only pizza.
        Pizza. Just pizza, dammit. 

        “war is peace 
        freedom is slavery 
        ignorance is strength”

        –from George Orwell’s “1984”

  24. When legitimate concerns of rape against men are raised then summarily dismissed as being “diversionary arguments,” then I’m not sure why I, as a man, should be at all concerned about “rape culture.”

    To me, the most oppressive thing about this whole rape culture thing is that you could easily replace every instance of “young girl” with “young boy” in this article and the most vocal protestors of rape culture would simply turn a blind eye. Sandusky got away with sexual violence against young men for 15 years, the Catholic Church for generations… yet rape is still supposed to be a women’s issue.

    As long as women continue to turn a blind eye towards the very real concerns of men in this discussion (not to mention the fact that males at the predominant victims of every other type of violent offense), then men will continue to turn a blind eye towards “rape culture.” You get what you give.

    • Men may be the predominant victims of other types of violence, they are also the predominant causes of it as well. This statistic seems to run parallel with the other one. Although I have seen a lot of references to the part of the statistic you pointed out and not much mention of the other.

      DD, if “you get what you give”, and men are not getting what they want in return, maybe it’s because they also aren’t giving what they should be right? Looks like both sides are standing on one side of the line and waiting for the other side to offer the olive branch so that they can return it. I’m not sure how that’s going to work out but so far, it doesn’t look like it’s working out very well.

      • That argument is beyond absurd, because you just grouped together literally 3 billion men in a brushtstroke so broad I can’t even describe it.

      • As if that effing matters. Why do people always pull the card about men doing the violence, as if that somehow makes it less serious? It seems more about feminism deflecting blame than trying to actually help, and if that is the best you can offer, then you need to step aside and let men’s groups handle their issues themselves.

        Not to mention that recent data is showing that women rape and abuse men in equal numbers (this is where you go “nuh uh!”). Its all so tiring having this conversation over and over.

        • Ditz, Why do you have an issue with pointing out who is doing more of the violence? If you have an issue with that statement, why not also have an issue with the statement that men are larger victims of violent crimes as well?

          But I agree, it is tiring having this conversation over and over again. I do believe that at the heart of this matter is that neither side feels heard or respected.

          • Because victims are more important than villains. Saying “oh, but it doesn’t count, it’s teh menz fault” accomplishes absolutely nothing. Nothing! NOTHING!

            You aren’t contributing anything here by saying so. All you’re doing is more or less trying to say “well it isn’t my fault” when no one even said so to begin with.

            The only thing that you accomplish is derailing a conversation about male victims in rape culture, when those same victims cannot even be recognized as victims to begin with. Do you see why this makes people angry?

            We have data now that says men are equal victims of rape, and women are nearly equal perpetrators. If you factor in prison, the USA is the first country in the world to have more men raped by women. But as you have shown, no one cares about prisoners because they must “deserve it.” Oh, and because other men are raping them so it doesn’t count.

            As a victim of rape by a woman, I’m sick and endlessly tired of this crap.

            So again I say, if feminism can’t add anything to this discussion, then back off and let us deal with it ourselves.

      • Mostly_123 says:

        Erin,

        To say that ‘Most people who commit violent crime happen to be male’ is something that is statistically valid and verifiable. But correlation is not cause.    

        To say that ‘Most people commit violent crime BECAUSE they are male’ – is not fact. THAT is an ideological and a philosophical stance; an assumption that is well open to challenge irrespective of one’s gender – an assumption rooted in fear, divisiveness, and bigotry that leads to prejudice and hate. You’ve drawn a nice, neat line that you can point an accusing finger across; safe in an ideological construct where you pass moral judgement upon others without any reciprocal culpability falling upon yourself.     

        • Mostly, can you please show me where someone said that “most people committ violent crimes because they are male”?

          Are you implying I’ve said this? If so, where did I say that statement. If you can show me where I expressed this view point then let me apologize. But I don’t remember saying such a thing. But I always open to learning how to be a better communicator.

          I am rather tired of all the personal attacks the the quick assumptions of each other that we are all out to get one another.

          DD made the point that men are more often the victims of violent crime. I responded by adding that they are also more likely to be the perpetrators. That is NOT the same thing as saying what you suggested I’ve said.

          By the way, I do believe there are concerns and issues with younger generations of girls becoming more phyiscally violent. This is a growing concern.

          I would like to work with you, even if we disagree.

          • Mostly_123 says:

            “Mostly, can you please show me where someone said that ‘most people committ violent crimes because they are male’? Are you implying I’ve said this? If so, where did I say that statement.”

            I am citing your words directly- I quote what you wrote: “Men may be the predominant victims of other types of violence, they are also the predominant causes of it as well.”

            You also mentioned: “I am rather tired of all the personal attacks the the quick assumptions of each other that we are all out to get one another.” 

            I protest the logic of the position you have taken (as I see it), and the way it’s been articulated- nothing less, nothing more.

            • You did not cite my words directly, you suggested I said, “Most people commit violent crime BECAUSE they are male’”. I never said that. Saying that men are predominantly the victims of other types of violence and men are statisically also predominantly the cause of it as well is not the same thing as saying that men committ violent crimes “because” they are male. I hope you are able to see the difference now.

              Further, if you believed I was saying that men comment violent crimes *because* they are male, then you would also have to believe I was also saying that men are predominantly victims of violence because they are male too. But you made no argument against the first part of comment regarding men being predominant vicitms of violence. You see no issue with saying men are predominantly the victims of other types of violence. You simply see an issue with saying men are also predominantly the cause of other types of violence. Even though that is statistically true.

              As I said before, I am tired of all the personal attacks and the quick assumptions of each other’s vileness that we are all out to get one another.

            • Mostly_123 says:

              Erin, what I take issue with is the statement:

              “Men may be the predominant victims of other types of violence, they are also the predominant causes of it as well.”

              -Remember- you did not say ‘some men’ or ‘those men’ or ‘of the people who commit crimes’ or even ‘of the men who commit other types of violence’ – you used the term “men” as a universal collective there – you have phrased it as the entire gender, wholesale. That may indeed not have been your intent, but your phrasing was misleading and absolutist.

              Speaking broadly, most people do not violent commit crimes; of that subset of people who do, many more are men than women- BUT the overwhelming majority of men do NOT commit crimes (violent or otherwise). What you are doing there is substituting the actions of a SUBSET of behaviors as the normative actions for the whole; in this case, saying “{men} are the predominant cause” – as opposed to ‘the predominant people who cause violence are male’ — very, very different things. 

              From your protestations then, I presume we agree that it would be erroneous to call men -collectively, as a gender- the cause of violent crime, when the overwhelming majority of men are not criminals (violent or otherwise). Or have I misspoken? 

            • Mostly_123 says:

              “You made no argument against the first part of comment regarding men being predominant vicitms of violence. You see no issue with saying men are predominantly the victims of other types of violence. You simply see an issue with saying men are also predominantly the cause of other types of violence. Even though that is statistically true.”

              Because correlation is NOT the same as causation.

              (And that holds whether one agrees or disagrees with a given statistic)

            • Mostly_123 says:

              And, to be fair, you said ‘MAY BE the predominant victims’ and not ‘ARE the predominant victims’ so, agree or disagree, that was quite conspicuously qualified. But there’s no corresponding qualifier or reservation in the assertion ‘they ARE also the predominant causes of it as well.’

        • Adam Blanch says:

          No Erin, Males being the majority of people committing violent crime is not statistically valid. You are collapsing types of crime and context into one basket. Female are the predominant perpetrators of domestic violence, as shown by over 40 years of large scale research that feminism is desperate to hide. Women are also the predominant perpetrators of physical child abuse, child homicide, relational violence, and emotional child abuse.

          Men are the predominant perpetrators of violence against other men and have higher levels of perpetration of sexual violence. Patterns of difference in gender are mediated by a range of biological and social factors. I appreciate that you are one of the more reasonable voices on this topic, but people’s reactions to you are probably in regard to this generalisation that you have made which implies that men are violent because they are men, and which is certainly used to promote that view by most feminists.

    • Miss Kae Oz says:

      I don’t see cases of rape against men being more swept under the rug than the rape of women. They are both frequently hidden and downplayed. The Sandusky crimes were awful awful awful, and people were outraged when they found out. But Sandusky had a band of supporters crawl out of their holes the same as the coaches of these boys did. I don’t think the victims sex matters as much as the status of the perpetrator. Homophobia probably plays a part in hiding the acts as well. Unfortunately, boy victims of older women are often seen as less of victims than seen as “lucky” because boys are always supposed to want sex and should be thankful for it.
      I think there is a silence about men victims for several reasons. The cultural idea that a man is supposed to be strong and dominant often makes them too embarrassed to admit to being raped. Their guy friends may be unbelieving or cruel because they don’t want to admit the possibility of men being victims. It is an extremely under addressed problem that some organizations are working on.

  25. Emulator says:

    I was agreeing with you until you got to the “Rape culture is when a journalist says this…” part. From then on, you seemed to go further and further off the deep end. And then you reached the pizza advertisement which seemed to have nothing to do with rape culture, except perhaps an unfortunate choice of words.

  26. Rape culture is absolutely real, and it is part of our culture which glorifies violence, power and domination.

    • Well said. My disagreement with the term, though, comes from the fact that rape is a part of the culture, along with (as you say) violence, power, domination, etc. It would be equally correct to use the term Violence Culture or Domination Culture.

  27. animalwhisperer says:

    The only difference I can see between the “rape culture” of now and that of 1960 is that NOW girls are complicit in the rape of another girl (specifically, the Ohio case). THAT, aside from the difference in the technology, is the main difference between now and 1960. And please, no calling the girls who were complicit in the rape “victims of the rape culture” themselves. There was only ONE VICTIM in this case!
    So yeah, if there’s been a “rape culture” it’s pretty much the same one that’s been around forever, with the difference noted above. Actual statistics seem to show that over the past 3 decades, the number of rapes per capita in the U.S. has actually gone down. And again, please don’t try to explain this away by saying that reporting (always a low number, maybe 0.1 of all rapes) has gone down to account for it as there’s no evidence AT ALL that this is so. Since it’s easier (not easy, but easier) to get arrests and convictions NOW (one way that technology HELPED in the OH case) than 50 years ago, the evidence seems to show that the American culture concerning rape has actually improved in the last 60 years. Yeah, facts don’t exactly fit in with the cliche’ of “rape culture” much do they?. That’s often the problem with facts (note, ONE rape is ONE too many, obviously…..).

  28. animalwhisperer says:

    Here’s my guess: my comment above will be censored in that it won’t make it past moderation (as will be the same with this one). yes, people ARE watching.

  29. animalwhisperer says:

    Happy to be wrong, in this case! congrats.

  30. Random_Stranger says:

    Yeah….but I wouldn’t say most of what you listed above is specific to rape, really most crimes, particularly against a person are subject to silence, intimidation, minimization, and popular denial. By the same token, you might identify “physical assault culture”, “child abuse culture” and “murder culture” as particularly troubling parts of our society that are at least as, if not more so, prevalent than rape.

    What get’s some of us in a tizzy is that discussion on “rape culture” tends to insist that rape is a crime a) uniquely suffered by women, b) perpetuated only by men as a function of being men c) reduces all other assault to a comparative minor infraction. When the discussion starts from this frame, it can only divide the room along gender lines and result in the response you cite in your exhibits above. The conversation invariably reduces to an argument for moral legitimacy by feminists against men writ at large in a quest for ethos and power.

    Case in point, you provided a great example yourself when you highlighted the quip “deader than Trayvon Martin”. Am I to take that your directed outrage assumes that Trayvon’s Martin murder is somehow less than rape? That the dark humor is palatable when its trivializes the murder of a young black man, but its proximity to rape somehow reduces the heinousness of that crime? I really hope not.

  31. “…we will not be publishing comments which caveat the discussion of rape culture with false rape accusation concerns.”

    I know that “caveat”, as a noun, means “warning”; what it means here as a verb I cannot guess.

  32. I tell this again, the root problem of this rape culture is male sexuality ( what men believe about sexuality ), not violence culture. As long as men believe you need to become a ladies man, a man who can make any women want to have sex with you to became a real man, rape culture will still exist. As long as men don’t respect their own bodies and think their body is ugly and have no sexual value, rape culture will still exist. As long as men still think showing their emotions and vulnerability is shameful and not manly, rape culture will still exist.

    Its weird almost no one touch this subject when we talk about rape culture. We only tell men to respect women, to not rape women, but we never talk about root of this problem, male sexuality in society.

    • Because usually the proposed solutions are offered in a limited scope of “how can we fix this for women?”. Now that’s a good question however when asking like that you end up starting off thinking that the problems of rape culture are limited to how it affects women. And even when men are brought into the mix its usually on the premise that they need to change in order to fix it for women.

      There’s usually not much room for the fixing of things that are affecting men (which generate affects that harm everyone) for the sake of helping men out for their own benefit.

    • Hi John
      Thank you
      It is strange to read all the comments above, in fact they scare me.
      Nearly all men here are defensive instead of expressing empathy with the girl.

      Where I live, rape of men and boys are not swept under the carpet.

      • “Nearly all men here are defensive instead of expressing empathy with the girl.”
        This article is about rape culture isn’t it? Not just this girl? Men are also raised to not show empathy much so I myself FIND IT EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to even know how to express my empathy apart from wanting to set fire to the rapists. Your comment scares me because of your utter lack of empathy and understanding of men here and how you are trying to paint them as unempathic because they are talking about rape culture as the article suggests vs singling out her. What is it you want men to do? Say its bad what happened to her? Of course it’s bad what happened to her and I hope her rapists get the full brunt of the law against them as I have said on other articles on her case alone. On this article I talked about rape culture though.

      • Adam Blanch says:

        This article is about rape culture, the alleged culture by which men supposedly facilitate and support rape. The ‘girl’ has nothing to do with it, except as a useful scapegoat for the author to promote her sexist agenda. the whole point of the so called ‘defensiveness’ is that most men are just as horrified by rape as most women are, and we are tired o being demonised by feminists using the victims of violent crime for their own political agenda. SO what you are saying is that men being angry about being stereotyped and labelled as monsters is proof that men are monsters with no empathy.

  33. A quick question.
    I get the sense that the issue of rape culture is worse in the States than here in Australia. ( I am not saying it doesn’t exist here though). The States pays so much more attention to high school and tertiary sport. Plus the States have that weird mix of cheer leaders and sport that provides a very gendered dynamic.
    What are your thoughts on the dangers of providing these aggrandizing environments for pubescent males? Do you think it makes it worse?

    • Cam, that’s a really interesting insight that I never thought about.

      I think if kids are brought up in a healthy environment with mutual respect for both genders, a very gendered dynamic, shouldn’t matter. I don’t think the heavily gendered dynamic is the problem. Boys playing football and girl cheerleading isn’t the issue. There is a reason boys tend to gravitate toward football and girls toward cheerleading. Boys and girls are different. But I think it’s the lack of respect for each other and our different skills and gifts that’s the real issue. And that problem starts with adults and what we are or aren’t teaching our kids about one another. The issue starts when male sport figures are given free passes because of their skill. Both by men and women alike. IThe issue starts when adult men, in an attempt to bond with each other or younger boys, talk demeaningly about girls and women. When they talk about women like they are pieces of meat. The issue starts when adult women roll their eyes or put down what men like condesendingly in attempt to bond with other women or girls.

      If boys and girls, men and women truly respect each other and their differences, then highly genderized environments shouldn’t be so tricky. We would be able to celebrate and enjoy our masculine and feminine differences and energies. But unfortunetly, I don’t see alot of respect for each other and our differences. There is a lot of sexism that exists in the world. And there is a lot of sexism that exists in high school. Especially in sport situations. But I don’t believe it’s because of what boys and girls may be more inclined to participate in. I think it’s because of we still don’t know how to respect each other’s different skill sets. I bet a lot of people don’t have as much respect for cheerleading as a sport as they do football. When both should be respected for their different skills by men and women, boys and girls alike.

      I acutally think providing environments where boys feel free to express themselves is positive when the adults in the environment are healthy themselves. When you don’t have coaches and teachers and parents upsetting the balance by giving too much power to kids. And that’s the problem. The kids reflect our society, not the other way around. If these kids are looking less empathetic toward others, are abusing each other, it’s not because kids are terrible. it’s because they learned those things from the world around them.

      • “If boys and girls and men and women truly respect each other and their differences, then highly tenderized environments shouldn’t be so tricky…”

        Interesting thought….a bunch of my HS FB friends and I have been getting together and sharing odd stories about how some of our most respected and beloved teachers from our very liberal, elite NYC magnet school were a bunch of secret perverts….there were stories about teachers trying to ask for dates, inappropriate touches, and come-ons….shocking stuff! In retrospect, it does make you wonder about those unspoken entitled, sexist attitudes that filter down from our teachers and parents and infect the students, no matter how liberal or how enlightened the high school fancies itself…..

    • Adam Blanch says:

      Cam, culture is only a weak contributor to violence (but don’t tell the feminists, they’ve built their empire on the idea that culture is the only cause of human behaviour). These environments do promote violence but not because they promote gendered role stereotypes. They put large groups of young people together where pack mentality, sexual arousal and alcohol combine to promote our more primal behaviours and dis-inhibit our more civilised ones. You see exactly the same behaviour by women at male stripper nights, foot ball matches and any environment where one group is dominant. It’s just what humans do when they forget to be evolved.

  34. Mostly_123 says:

    It is not wise to debate anyone who has already appointed themselves as the paramount arbiter of what is and what is not rape culture. And what is and what is not the nexus of maleness within that culture. 

    I tend to believe the debate (if there is a debate) is less about ‘rape’ but more about ‘culture’ – that is, about the power to define & collectivize what constitutes ‘culture’ arbitrarily. A man or woman takes up a paint brush, a pen, a videocamera, a megaphone, or a gun: What will they do with it? But more importantly to this discussion, when then, are they representing themselves as autonomous individuals, and when are they representing their collective race, class, ethnicity, gender, ideology, political collegiate bodies, or ‘culture’? Everybody wants to be the arbiter, because they see themselves as a just and impartial arbiter; and no one wants to be the appellant. 

    When the notion that ‘the personal is political’ is taken to its logical extreme, then no crime, no offense, no speech, no individual sleight, no advertisement, is ever autonomous or apolitical when more than one gender is involved. If that is so, then there is a moral equivalence between a sexist poster, comment, or attitude -spoken or unspoken- (however arbitrarily one defines ‘sexist’) and the physical act of (or the omission of action to prevent) rape.      

    But if not, then it is not necessary to find a point of conjunction of culpability between Daniel Tosh, a Colt 45 malt liquor or a Red Lobster ad, and Steubenville to resent and abhor of all of them. It is only necessary if one seeks to rationalize ALL of one’s disapprovals as all collectively & objectively (rather than subjectively) morally equivalent.

    There seems to be a logical fallacy at play there – that once anything is declared to be part of the collective whole of what constitutes rape culture, then to question or deny that individual item’s correlation to rape culture itself is therefore proof, of and/or approbation of rape culture itself. ‘You’re with us, or you’re with the rape culture.’ It’s a shortcut that lets’s one label anyone else as an apologist or a denier.    

    One may consider a culture ‘profane’ and render one’s own judgment collectively upon it, or selectively upon elements of it. This though, is different from arbitrarily defining what elements constitute a culture and then calling that culture collectively amoral or illegitimate, along with all dissenters to that opinion. (‘You’re either with us or you’re against us”). Historically, this is not how a wise partner treats their ‘allies’ – because it’s a poor way to win friends and encourage neutrals. 

  35. Adam Blanch says:

    When I was 20 years of age I worked as a glass collector in a night club that had a weekly male stripper night where hundreds of girls gleefully congregated to get very drunk and watch men dance naked. The drunker they got the more violent they became, until one night one of the girls grabbed me by the throat from behind and forced me backwards onto a table, 6 of her friends held me down and another girl started to remove my clothes and tried to initiate sex with me, until security arrived to intervene. No one was charged with assault or attempted rape, they weren’t even thrown out of the club, and all the girls thought it was great fun.

    What the author is calling rape culture is actually a result of pack mentality, a regression to a previous evolutionary stage in human consciousness that can be witnessed in most species. When a group is dominant (and therefore not accountable or restrained by their social group), dis-inhibited by alcohol, and sexually aroused they tend to regress regardless of whether they are male or female. You can see this at any football match or ladies night. This is human behaviour that has little or nothing to do with culture or gender.

    Th author only calls it rape culture when it applies to men, conveniently ignoring the reality of female rape of men and of other women (The Lesbian population has the highest incidence of sexual assault of any group, much higher than the heterosexual population and higher again than the gay male population). Why? It’s for the same reason that feminism works so hard to hide the female perpetration of domestic violence, social violence and interpersonal violence.

    Feminism’s political power is based entirely on he theory of patriarchy, the idea that violence and dominance behaviours are solely the province of men seeking to assert control and oppression over women. Female perpetration of violence contradicts that theory, disproves it really. The authors concern is not for the female victims of rape and violence, and most certainly not for the male victims of rape and violence who are deliberately not mentioned.

    Her concern is for her political agenda. She exaggerates the violent behaviours by a small proportion of the male population (making sure not to mention the same behaviours by a small proportions of the female population) into a ‘cultural’ phenomenon, by which she means to tar all men with the guilt of the few. If feminism was really concerned with ending or reducing the incidence of rape they would abandon their failed and sexist theories of cultural causation, and put their energies into evidence based responses that actually made a difference

    The truth is that rape is a political goldmine for feminism. As long as they can keep male perpetrated rape and violence in the public eye (and female perpetrated rape and violence out of it) they can use it to gather political will for their cause. Uffortunately, until we can end feminism’s dominance of this debate and public policy, nothing real can be done that actually improves the situation and makes the world safer.

  36. as a survivor of rape, i thank you for this.

  37. If you can stomach watching the video, there are some serious lessons there. While Trent is completely disgusting, as is the kid with the camera who’s egging him to keep going with his string of insults, there is at least one guy in the room who wants it to stop. He just doesn’t know how to make it happen. He tries reasoning with Trent saying “What if that was your daughter?” “I have a little sister,” “This is messed up,” “You raped a girl,” “You’re going to jail”. But Trent just keeps going with his “she’s deader than…” comments. At one point, I think I heard “911”, but no one calls. I’m also pretty sure there is talk about beating Trent up to get it to stop, but it doesn’t happen. We need to teach our kids how to effectively stand up to the Trent’s of the world and make them stop.

    • Insightful points J. And I totally agree with you and appreciate your comments because it’s not really something anyone else brought up.

  38. I’m tired of hearing about rapists and cases of disgusting and barbaric rapes all the time but until that stops, we’ll keep talking about the culture that perpetuates it. So stop the rape and we don’t have to talk about it. Simple. Only the perpetrators of this culture can stop it but they won’t. So let’s keep blasting people with it until they finally understand

    • Adam Blanch says:

      News for you Selina, you are the perpetrator of this ‘culture’, because rape isn’t a culture at all, it’s a human behaviour committed by both genders, and you are a human being. this will stop when we address the real causes of rape, meanwhile your attempts to make it ‘nothing to do with me’ are actually the problem that stops us addressing it. Rape and other violence occurs within the context of dehumanising the person being violated, and your comment is dehumanises and stereotypes men.

      If you really want to be part of the solution you will take responsibility for your contribution to violence in our culture and stop contributing to the gender divide and conversation that dehumanises men. Your current approach is like trying to stop a dog being angry by kicking it, then blaming the dog.what you are doing is not offering solutions, but merely getting off on your own self righteous rage and being part of the problem.

    • Sorry, but I think just telling people not to rape wont solve anything.

    • Mr Supertypo says:

      ” I’m tired of hearing about rapists and cases of disgusting and barbaric rapes all the time but until that stops, we’ll keep talking about the culture that perpetuates it. So stop the rape and we don’t have to talk about it. Simple. Only the perpetrators of this culture can stop it but they won’t. So let’s keep blasting people with it until they finally understand ”

      You are right, lets just tell people to stop rape. Why didnt we did that sooner? *sarcasm*

      Telling people to stop rape wont accomplish anything. And the subject need more debate, since it is to much female centric. When we have uncovered all the possible facet’s and causes, then we can move in the direction of efficient rape prevention and eradication.

      • Mostly_123 says:

        @ Mr Supertypo,

        You may be righter than you know.

        Not to long ago I came across a very interesting article that was linked through cracked.com – it was about racism (“5 Weirdest things that can cause you to be more racist”) rather than sexism – but I wouldn’t be surprised if similar human dynamics come into play. The gist of the article is that some of the things that we might think can have positive effect for fighting racism actually have the opposite effect; and end up provoking more racism. They cited a study done at the University of Toronto Scarborough (in essence it seems to show that brow-beating doesn’t work- even when the message is just and credible)

        Here’s the link for the study, called “Ironic Effects of Anti-Prejudice Messages”:

        http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/ironic-effects-of-anti-prejudice-messages.html

        Or if you want the short, sweet version, here’s the original article that linked the study:

        http://www.cracked.com/article_20348_the-5-weirdest-things-that-can-cause-you-to-be-more-racist.html  

        Basically, they summed it up for me when they said: “Above all, we just don’t like being told what to do. Even if the thing we’re being told makes perfect sense.”

        Again, they were looking at racism rather than sexism, but think that human dynamic is very much the same.  

        • Mr Supertypo says:

          I dont have the time right now to check the links you posted, but Ill do as soon I have, so I bookmark them for now.

          Yes I agree with you, but I dont think the problem lies in being told what or what not to do. But rather how the message is delivered: ie : teach men not to rape, it should be instead, teach people not to rape. The first one, is incorrect, because its specific, and ignore to many dynamics and it put men on the defensive and they logically react in that way. The second instead is more general and inclusive of the various social dynamics and no category feels attacked. Therefore correct and constructive.

          But I give a look to the links you mentioned as soon as possible.

          ciao

    • wellokaythen says:

      So, what I hear you saying is that we will continue to hear about rape culture until there is no more rape in the world. This reminds me of the War on Terror. Presumably the War on Terror will be over when there is no more terrorism anywhere in the world? Sounds like a never-ending war.

      If the existence of rape is proof of the existence of rape culture, then rape culture has to be one of the oldest, most durable parts of human culture, undented for millennia. I guess that’s the good news for Rape Culture Theory as a source of emotional energy – it will probably continue to exist indefinitely. If someone makes a living exposing rape culture, that person has great job security.

  39. wellokaythen says:

    Let’s say for the sake of argument that women are the clear majority of rape victims and that men are the clear majority of rapists. Just for the moment.

    So, I’m unclear why this percentage difference actually matters, even if it’s statistically significant. Really, is rape a “majority rules” kind of issue? I don’t know if there is any other issue so hotly argued on the GMP where there is so much attention to getting the percentages exactly correct or debating whether a group of people is a large majority, slight majority, large minority, small minority, or infinitesimally small percentage. (Here is where people on both sides will reply to me by saying “they started it with their warped statistics!”)

    It sounds like people are suggesting this is a “majority rules, minority drools” kind of situation, where if you have numbers on your side you get the higher ground, and the rest just have to make do.

    Think about how it would be if we just used “the majority is what matters” as the standard for the entire issue. One could then say that the vast majority of men never commit rape, and the majority of women are not victims, so no big deal, majority rules and every other way to look at it is “diversionary” or “apologist.” That’s a really unproductive way to look at rape.

    Consider what would happen if we looked at LGBT issues that way, if it was the majority of the population that really mattered and focusing on tiny percentages of the population was just a distraction from the “real issues.” Come on, trans people are like 1% of the population, so all of this attention to their rights is just a distraction from the bad things that happen to cis people, right? That would be a pretty grotesque use of arithmetic, and one might be called homophobic to use percentages in that way.

    In a way, the rape statistics are like the unemployment statistics. If you’re out of work, unemployment is 100%, and if you have a job unemployment is 0%. If you’re a rape survivor (and not all victims are actually survivors) then the rape percentage is 100% as far as you’re concerned.

    • I guess for me, it matters because it begins to get into the whys of the issue. Why is one group more vulnerable to being a victim of certain act from another group. What can we do to identify it. What can we do to prevent it. What does society do to contribute to it. How do we get this one group that are known to be bigger violators toward another group to stop what they are doing. Tackle what happens to the majority, not because it means what happens to the minority is less important but because it gets us off the ground and moving to hopefully a more postive and progressive shift. You target what most people are affected by to begin the process because you’ll have a greater response if your target audience is big to begin with. You don’t do that because your implying that those that are violated that are in the minority don’t matter as much, but because knowing why something happens to a larger group is a good place to start.

      Maybe there needs to be a GMP experinment. People that normally side on one side of the argument need to argue the other side for an entire day of commenting, and vice versa. I am trying to picture myself doing this and I would admit it would be really hard but maybe worth it.

      I think the core issue is neither side feels heard. What I have observed on GMP is that when there is an article about male rape victims, the comments are about male rape victims. The problem male rape victims face. As it should be! When there is an article about female rape victims, the comments are about male rape victims and how men don’t get aknowledged enough for the issues they face regarding rape. Women don’t feel like they are being heard. Men don’t either. And that’s the real problem.

      Maybe feminism largely recongnizes that women are raped but I am never really left with the impression that it’s something men want to recongnize. A lot of men largely want to talk about other men that are raped, they are tired of talking about women that are raped. They are sick of hearing about women that are raped it seems. But I think men do that because of their own pain. Just like women do. But it doesn’t get us anywhere.

      From a female perspective, here you have this story of this 16 year old girl that was abused and violated, and this story isn’t really old news because we’ve all heard something similar to this story before of a lone girl getting violated by a group of boys or men, and the only thing a lot of men want to address is specific to male rape… on the backs of stories of female rape. So when GMP talks about male rape, male rape gets discussed. When GMP talks about female rape, male rape gets discussed. I don’t think men want to acknowledge the amount of violence and degradation that happens to women. Look at the pictures provided in this article. The violent sexual images geared to women, calling a woman an idiot on a poster…..using the murder of women as sexual titulation. I am sure there are some ads out there doing the same to men. But there is a reason why women are more often portrayed this way than men are. What that reason is, I don’t really know. I rarely see men on this site directly address the issue of female rape. They either want to talk about male rape, or not mention gender at all.

      • As it should be! When there is an article about female rape victims, the comments are about male rape victims and how men don’t get aknowledged enough for the issues they face regarding rape. Women don’t feel like they are being heard. Men don’t either. And that’s the real problem.

        Wrong.

        When there is a topic about rape as a whole and it’s turned into “rape is a women issue”, for sure you’ll have people calling it out.

        It’s as if we had an article about murder, just murder, and someone said “it’s a men’s issue”. Murder is a human issue, even if men are more victims.

      • In this comment, Erin, you repeatedly mischaracterized the discussion “men on this site” are having as trying to steer discussion away from female rape to that of male rape. I don’t know if it’s deliberate or not, but what you’re completely ignoring is that the core issue in this discussion isn’t male rape or female rape, it’s that piece of feminist theory known as Rape Culture. It’s right there in the title, and then spelled out in the post in an impressive display of truthiness. I mean, it just feels so true, doesn’t it?

        I don’t think it would be a sexist or troubling thing if men on a men’s site wanted to :gasp: talk about male rape, but what you have in this and similar threads are men arguing that among other flaws, the theory of Rape Culture does not adequately include or address rapes that don’t fit the female victim – male perpetrator template. I hope you and others can understand that people can be and are horrified by what happened to the Steubenville girl, without accepting Rape Culture as the one true explanation which shalt not be criticized.

        • Contrary to what you would like to believe ove me Marcus, I do not think it’s sexist or troubling for men to want to talk about male rape. The part that becomes troubling, although I don’t believe it’s purposely sexist, is when men don’t want to ever address female rape. And my comments are pretty clear about that. I did not just make a comment about men wanting to talk about male rape. I made an observation about how I’ve seen conversations come down under certain articles. And I will restate it because I’m not sure you understood what I was trying to express. When I see articles on GMP about male rape, men want to talk about male rape. When I see articles on GMP about female rape, men still want to talk about male rape. Just because this is a website for men, doesn’t mean that the conversations men have shouldn’t be of women sometimes.

          Whether there is a rape culture or not, is up to each individual to decide for themselves. But whether you believe in it or not, there are very specific problems regarding rape and how men and women treat one another. There are very specific problems of how sometimes young men choose to express themselves sexually. A group of boys gang-raping a girl isn’t really new news. Teen girls arne’t little angels and they face their own concerns but it is pretty prevelent to see groups of men or boys get into a pack mentality that become violent or sexually degrading to others. I do not understand why this isn’t something men don’t want to talk about. You can talk about the issues concerning male victims of rape. And you can also talk about the issue concerning female victims of rape.

          I remember being back in grade school and the boys being very sexually pushy and aggresive at that age. I remember the girls going along with it because it was usually the popular boys who got away with the most. There were always popular girls but the popular boys where who ran the school. They made comments freely about girl’s bodies infront of all of us, who was pretty, who was too fat..it was a game for the boys to run around snapping our bras and hings like that. You’d go to a party and they would have some hardcore porno on. It made a lot of the girls feel uncomfortable but none of us spoke up. We didn’t want to be the dude that didn’t want to do what the cool boys wanted. This is a big problem. I believe it contributes to a culture that still values male sexuality over respecting others.

          • “I believe it contributes to a culture that still values male sexuality over respecting others.”

            I disagree. Replace “male sexuality” with “hegemonic masculinity” and you’re on to something, though.

          • “I remember being back in grade school and the boys being very sexually pushy and aggresive at that age. I remember the girls going along with it because it was usually the popular boys who got away with the most. There were always popular girls but the popular boys where who ran the school. They made comments freely about girl’s bodies infront of all of us, who was pretty, who was too fat..it was a game for the boys to run around snapping our bras and hings like that”

            I have no idea how close we are in age, but when I was in grade school the girls were just as pushy. They would chase the boys around, sometimes just playfully, but they often tried to kiss us and I remember on 2 separate occasions a girl slapping my ass. Once we got into middle school, the girls became a less aggressive and it was the boys who did all the unwanted groping. But both genders would stand around in the open commenting on who they did and didn’t find attractive. The boys were a little more crude about it, but the girls did it just as openly. By high school when people had become sexually active, I remember on multiple occasions hearing girls openly talk about about the penis sizes of the boys they had been with, smirking about those not well endowed or who simply weren’t good in bed.

            • Jack, I can understand wanting to share your own experiences, but at the same time, I am left with the impression that I am not really being listened to and my experiences are being written off because you really want to talk about yours instead. You are very careful to say that the boys were a little more aggressive and crude but at the end of the day, you clearly believe that everything is still equal. Sharing my experiences wasn’t an attempt to say little girls are perfect and boys are horrible. I however thing we do have an out of balance culture that sways in favor of masculine ideals. Which I DO think is harmful to men and women alike.

              Girls chasing boys around in grade school (while maybe not the best situation? I don’t know) doesn’t seem like the same thing to me as boys and girls hitting puberty and getting unwanted groping. I grew up with an older brother and was use to playing with boys and getting knocked down in rough housing. However, after puberty, all of us were more aware of our bodies and the rough housing stopped and getting knocked down by a boy took on a whole new meaning. I guess for me, things appear more serious once kids hit puberty and start looking at things through a new perspective.

              I still maintain the fact that in high school, boys ran the show. Even over the popular girls. Which is why male sport figures get away with so and we don’t see as much of that among female sport figures. Which is also why even in this most recent case, you even have other girls calling this girl that was sexually abused a slut. I think that’s just as much a problem as anything else.

            • Erin, I wasn’t ignoring your experiences at all. The reason why I brought up your age relative to mine is that I was wondering whether or not what you speak of is a generational thing. You were talking about rape culture and how that affects the way males behave, citing your experiences at school as evidence. Now I’m a pretty young guy, but many of the actions you mentioned the boys doing when you were in school was also done by the girls at my school. As I said a lot of the chasing in grade school was playful, but there was sometimes unwanted kissing and groping involved on both sides which I would say is the sort of sexually pushy behavior you alluded to in your post. Once middle school came around and the girls started to develop all of the characteristics that men go nuts over, I fully acknowledge that pretty much all of the groping was done by the boys as the girls became less aggressive. But the standing around talking about who was attractive and who was ugly often right in the presence of the person being talked about? Both genders did that. Yes, the boys were more crude in that they would fixate more on the girls’s body parts, but the attitudes amongst the genders were the same. And as I said, once we got into high school talking about penis sizes openly became fair game. I personally knew 2 boys who became the target of teasing once word got around from the girls that they weren’t well endowed.

              So rather than ignoring your comments, I’m comparing our experiences and wondering if maybe we’ve come farther as a culture. In the past women were not allowed to as openly sexual, but now that they are the behaviors that you described as being primarily male are no longer so. And as far as who “ran the school”, I feel like it was pretty equally done between the boys and the girls, especially once high school came around.

            • Grade school, ages 4-11 maybe 12, high school ages 12-17 maybe 18. Big difference.

              You implied huge sexuality run amok for 5-12, who would do something with bra straps. Most girls don’t wear bras at 5-12 (it’s not physically needed until the breasts are actually heavy enough for it to matter at all – with my 34A I can gladly go without, even for sport (though I might consider a sports bra for jogging and such)).

              Bras in the 12-18 age range sounds reasonable, as is sexuality actually being on display, and adults being all “kids will be kids, let them tyranically bully each other in a socially Darwinistic way where the non-assholes are punished for being too weak”. Sexuality is just an element on top of this.

              Popularity is everything in high school, even if you’re counter-culture or a pariah – the Cool Kids TM, will still have a stranglehold on you, even if you don’t want to go to their parties, be in their gang, or help them in any way. They can bully you regardless.

          • Whether there is a rape culture or not, is up to each individual to decide for themselves. But whether you believe in it or not, there are very specific problems regarding rape and how men and women treat one another.

            Oh, if only it were so. That first sentence matches my opinion that rape culture is a faith-based concept, not an empirical one. So, if you believe it, all data fits the model no matter what, because ideas founded on faith can’t be falsified. I agree with the second sentence, too, that there are problems regarding rape and how the genders treat each other, regardless of whether you believe in rape culture. I also agree with what that implies, which is that there are solutions worth investigating and trying, regardless of whether you believe in rape culture. This take-it-or-leave-it notion of rape culture as one possible way of regarding the problem and approaching solutions to it IS NOT how it’s presented here at GMP or elsewhere in the feminist blogosphere.

            It’s not just “rape culture” — it’s Rape Culture. If you don’t accept it as the only valid way to think about and discuss rape, that makes you a heretic, only in this religion, heretics are called rape apologists. If you “decide for yourself” that Rape Culture is much more an ideology than a theory in the scientific sense of the word, the Rape Culture faithful *will not let you* talk about rape, its causes, or possible solutions in any other way. I don’t just mean they’ll get angry and post contrary posts. If you have any sizable platform at all, they will target you for a take-down. Harass you, your site, maybe call employers to try to get you fired, etc. GMP attempted some discussions of rape not long ago that were not molded out of Rape Culture clay, and several take-downs were attempted, they lost at least one blogger, and they continue to be ripped in the feminist blogosphere for it, even though by any non-women’s studies standard, you could not find a more feminist men’s site on the web.

            I do not understand why this isn’t something men don’t want to talk about. You can talk about the issues concerning male victims of rape. And you can also talk about the issue concerning female victims of rape.

            But see, you’re still talking about rape. This discussion isn’t about rape, it’s about Rape Culture. It’s like asking why people aren’t willing to have a wide-ranging discussion about morality and ethics if the ground rules include agreeing that it all starts with the Ten Commandments.

            • wellokaythen says:

              To be fair, the author does warn us on her blog:

              “It’s going to be random, opinionated, and, at times, utter nonsense. Be prepared.”

              I don’t get the sense that she would include this article in the “utter nonsense” category, but I don’t see why we can’t call it nonsense if she admits she writes nonsense sometimes.

          • Adam Blanch says:

            Erin, you talk about ‘culture’ as if there was only one, and generalise your personal experience into the global without the slightest evidence. There are many cultures, even within small geographical areas, and to subsume them into a single construct denies the human rights and validity of others.

            For instance, if I were to look at feminist culture (which is quite diverse of itself) and generalise that to the entire female population, I would have to conclude that women are man hating sexists driven by the desire for dominance and control and utterly careless about how they got it. Then I would be called a misogynist, but I get called that anyway.

            As an explanation for human behaviour social constructionist theories of culture as the primary deteminant are a spectacular failure – they just don’t stack up against the evidence. Human beings behave in human ways, and cultures, gender and attitudes have very weak impacts on that. there is no one ‘culture’ to blame for what people do.

      • “They are sick of hearing about women that are raped it seems. But I think men do that because of their own pain.”

        I don’t think it’s that. Frankly, many of us are tired of “Rape Culture” being a euphemism for “The way men think rape is okay because they run the world and everything is always awesome for them.” We’re tired of about hearing about how Men are Awful and Abusive and Rapists and Oppressors, about the Great Patriarchy Conspiracy, about how Women Always Have It Worse.

        We’re tired of hearing that “Men think women’s bodies are communal property!” and “Men don’t respect women!” “Men think rape is okay!” “Female rape victims deal with bad stuff, I don’t see male rape victims getting it as bad!”

      • Thank you for saying this, Erin…

        It does seem sometimes that the comments are seemingly divided into (1) TEAM MEN: those who support male victims and (2) TEAM WOMEN: those who support female victims…

        I agree that there is a lot of defensiveness on this site, when perhaps a word or two of empathy for the “other team” would suffice…instead of turning it into the Rape Victim Olympics….

        As it is, my HS friend and I discussed our teenage kids recently while waiting on line at a concert…he is not letting his beautiful 11th grader go on any dates during HS (her school’s track team just had two teammates arrested for hazing and digitally violating freshman on the team)….Meanwhile, I warily watch my son walk and hang out on Main Street in our town with his 12-13 year old friends (both boys and girls) and ponder if I will be as strict in monitoring his whereabouts when he gets to be as old as my friend’s 16 yo daughter….

        How do we prevent another Steubenville here in our own hometowns (even when we live in NYC and thereabouts)?

      • Erin:

        What I have observed on GMP is that when there is an article about male rape victims, the comments are about male rape victims. The problem male rape victims face

        Let’s look at one of those articles:

        http://goodmenproject.com/on-rape-and-sexual-violence/male-rape-survivors-and-victim-blaming/

        A woman commenter found that article to be the appropriate place to bring up the issue of false accusations.

        Later on there is a queer woman writing about how she was raped by another queer woman. Aside from the first woman commenter questioning her rape there was no “what about the wimminz” invectives thrown at her. James Landrith – the male survivor who wrote the article – told her that she was among allies.

        Another female commenter wrote about her rape. She wasn’t told off for doing so.

        This commenter made sure to tell how extremely rare female rapists were compared to male rapists.

        • Adam Blanch says:

          Nothing rare about female rapists. Studies with college goers find that just as many boys report being pressured and forced to have sex as girls do. 50% of women in the lesbian community report having been sexually assaulted by another woman. I personally experience rape twice as young man, two different women deciding to have sex with me while I was in a drunken coma. One I had never met and the other had made advances which I refused earlier in the night. Funny how when men talk about their experience of rape on this discussion, no one wants to go near it.

      • wellokaythen says:

        I’ve seen examples of the phenomenon you’re talking about, where someone is talking about women victims and someone responds by focusing on male victims. Sometimes that appears to be an attempt to shift the discussion onto a more male-centric point of view. I can see how someone might think that’s somehow dismissing women victims.

        But, many times the responder brings up male victims because an article or series of comments seems to be stuck in the male perp/female victim model. Then the response is just an attempt to add some balance to the discussion. Sometimes that attempt to add balance comes across as a little hostile, admittedly, but I think we can all agree that tempers have a way of flaring when someone feels like there are millions of victims that seem to be ignored. (Even if they aren’t actually being ignored, just not talked about at that moment.)

        What I hope to see more in debates about rape and culture is to look at even larger cultural forces that cut across gender lines. If there is a rape culture, it’s something that maybe victimizes men and women at different levels and in different ways, but it victimizes both of them. It’s part of a larger cultural system that (sometimes) celebrates violence, sexual dominance, the body as a disposable object, and sees sexuality as forbidden, dirty, and mindless. Rape culture makes fun of all sorts of victimization of all sorts of genders. (“Don’t drop the soap!” Hilarious, right?)

        What many men on GMP are annoyed with is the way that analyses of rape culture tend to reduce everything down to the standard male perp/female victim structure. It’s especially annoying when there’s a clear example of a very different situation that is then turned around to support the standard portrayal.

        For example, the image in the article of a woman on top of a man with the caption “getting jumped in an alley has never been this much fun.” I don’t know for sure, but I suspect that the author would say that this ad makes light of women being raped. But, it’s an image of a man getting jumped by a woman and the man enjoying it. The idea that it’s fun for a man to be jumped by a woman sounds an awful lot like a rape culture protecting female-on-male rape, but here I imagine it’s used to show how awfully misogynistic rape culture is. So, even when it’s a suggestion of a woman assaulting a man, it’s still about men assaulting women. Arrrg.

        And no doubt many men on GMP would rightly point out that “getting jumped in an alley” does not just mean getting raped, so it’s overly narrow to refer to it in terms of rape. They would rightly point out that, if you include non-sexual assaults, “getting jumped in an alley” probably happens to men as much as or more than women.

  40. Hi Erin

    Thank you.
    You expressed this so well. This my thoughts to. I I agree!

  41. Markku Hänninen says:

    Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and though there are dozens of witnesses, they can’t get anyone to come forward.
    Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and we later find out that their coaches were “joking about it” and “took care of it.”
    Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and even though there is documentation of the coaching staff sweeping it under the rug, they get to keep their jobs.

    I do acknowledge that what you describe as rape culture exists in some parts. For example i think rape culture is victim blaming “why did you wear slutty clothes” etc. if someone is raped(tried to think most clear cut case). But i always get annoyed when all the things in the world are rape culture.

    There are 3 reasons taken from your posting as example that i don’t think are rape culture in any way. Why do i think that? Because all those reasons have in common that they would probably happen even if we change the crime. Tight group of people tend to protect themselves and there can be huge social pressure against doing anything that goes against the group. It doesn’t matter what the crime is, the same behaviour can be found. Same might be said about the latter two. While there is possibility that the coaches just approve raping drunken girls and thus make it rape culture, i seriously doubt it. They protect the team regardless of the crime. If the team had beaten up a bum, the reaction might have been exactly same.

    So while i think i do know what rape culture is, i think the word is used much too freely and it eats the effect and usefulness of the term when it is used to describe everything that happens.

    • Georgina says:

      “Tight group of people tend to protect themselves ” like the catholic church?
      Now there is a rape culture for you – in fact almost all religions blame the raped person

  42. Hi Jacobtk

    Let’s talk about rape of men!
    Who stops the info reaching our media?

    Here is my person experience.( I am a woman) ,
    In the eighties in worked for a while in a high security prison for men. A prison with many murderers.

    The night I sat down and read all the files about crimes they had committed.

    I was stunned.
    Many men had murdered another man after he had been raped by him.
    I can not give details.

    But I knew these facts are deliberately kept away from us. Why ? And by whom?

    But

  43. Julie Ann says:

    I live in Hawaii, and things like this don’t happen where I live. The town is small, and Hawaii is very different from the people that live in the states. The only crimes that happen frequently here are people that smoke weed, miss jury duty, or they get arrested for drunk driving.

    I didn’t want to read the article, and I didn’t. I read a few words, but I knew that if I read everything, whatever is on my desk would be broken.

    Even though I do not live in a violent place, I’m hyper-vigilant. I don’t walk with my head down. I look at everyone in the face, and I don’t smile. I walk with a proper posture, and I slide my keys between my fingers when I walk to my car. I look behind me before I unlock my door, and I look around again when I open my door to sit in my car. I also look in the back seat and I lock the door once I’m inside.

    I don’t go to clubs to drink, and I don’t wear provocative clothing. I prefer shirts, and I make sure to workout my arms and legs. I wear flat slippers, never high heels.

    To the women/men that have been attacked before: I’m so sorry. Don’t believe all men are like that, and some men are raped, too. It’s not only something that can happen to women. Everything will be fine.

    To the women/men that have attacked: I hope you burn in hell. I hope you die alone, and I hope you die in pain. You should be ashamed of yourselves, and you’ll get yours in the end. You’ll get yours.

    • Julie Ann, if these things don’t happen where you live, why the need to be hyper-vigilant?

      You fail to miss irony in your comment: Your need to protect yourself enforces the author’s main point, which is that rape culture puts the onus on the woman (in most cases) to prevent rape, and is blamed if she does not, rather than raising our sons to believe that violating someone in unacceptable. Most rapes are not done by the stranger hiding in the bushes. It is committed by men (in most cases) who grew up in a culture that told them to expect unfettered access to a woman’s body.

  44. Adam McPhee says:

    If telling men “not to commit rape” would stop rape, why hasn’t God telling man “thou shalt not kill”, not stopped murders?

    • To a large degree it (or other forms of this ethical injunction) has… it isn’t the case that one in six people have been murdered.

  45. Not buying it says:

    I am not a rapist, none of my male friends are rapists either & I am sure of it otherwise we wouldn’t be friends, is there Sicko’s or just plain violent men sure there is I ‘v even met & known few murderers here & their in forty years , never met a rapist though, does it happen?? sure, but not even close to your ideology claims the the numbers are!!! There is a lot more scientific & reliable sources that dispute your claims & I tend to believe them.

    • Janedoe says:

      Well we are around (left overs from broken society) and they exist http://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/MTMT00069453/Frank-Eugene-Johnson.html hes the first one to get a ranking of 3 and got out 7 years early of one consequitive count. He had three but two he didnt serve.

    • wellokaythen says:

      Realistically, it’s more accurate to say *as far as you know* none of your friends are rapists, or that they wouldn’t be your friends if you knew that they were rapists. It’s almost tempting fate to say you don’t know any rapists. There are plenty of rapists whose friends and family didn’t suspect a thing….

    • You have no idea what your friends have done. Just because they haven’t told you, doesn’t mean they haven’t done it. And just because a woman doesn’t tell someone she has been raped, doesn’t mean she hasn’t been!

  46. Rape is despised by most people. There may be a small subculture of very loosely organized memes about rape, but to generalize that to “we have a rape culture” is hyperbole. The idea that men are callous towards rape belies the fact that men have mothers, sisters, wives, and daughters, none of whom he would want to be raped. Most men are naturally providers for and protectors of women, so again this doesn’t square with reality. But perhaps the hyperbole is necessary given the seriousness of these crimes. Please note however that the hyperbole itself is not victimless as it effectively stereotypes and demonizes men and male sexuality.

    • 1. “The idea that men are callous towards rape”

      Rape culture is not solely perpetuated by men, and the author never said that anywhere.

      2. ” belies the fact that men have mothers, sisters, wives, and daughters, none of whom he would want to be raped.”

      This right here is a perfect example of rape culture. Women must be placed in direct relation to men to justify why they don’t deserve to be raped. Perhaps in a society WITHOUT rape culture, people would talk more about how women deserve better than rape because they’re human beings.

      3. “Most men are naturally providers for and protectors of women, so again this doesn’t square with reality. ”

      What is your source for this? Also, did anything the author wrote claim that most men DON’T protect women? Or are you just assuming this to be true?

      Clearly what most people see as a statement of fact in this article you see as hyperbole, but only because you jump to conclusions about everything the author writes.

  47. Janedoe says:

    I do not accept my cultures response to my life. I do not accept being told because I was sexually assaulted as a child I am not a good parent. I do not accept , middle class ignorance of my mom told me not to talk about it , and so its not real. I do not accept , being told I am a liar when I reach out. I do not accept years of therapy teaching me not to be a victim. And having my community terrorize me , because I see another child of circumstance victimized. I do not accept , being ostrasized and question as though anyone in any authoritarian position has ANY CONCEPT of the walk of the raped. As though your classes in trauma can come close to walking away from the memories of what is , what has been and what will always be. I do not accept my community telling me I can NOT HELP ANYONE ANYLONGER BECAUSE i AM NOT BY THEIR IGNORANT UNDEREDUCATED , SUPER INTELLECTUALLY RETARDED STANDARDS. I will not accept having my FAMILY TORN APART because I spoke for a child who did not speak. I spoke for the child who I was , for my child who will be and I stood up and I said I , too am Jane doe. And I am 21 years old in the case histories of Jane doe’s I am an Amendment in the Wetterling act , I served my country as a child and I helped change sex offender laws to create a registry. And I will not accept my community slandering me. I will not accept being shamed , and I will not accept my child being taken away from me because someone caught wind of my words and didnt like them.

    • Adam Blanch says:

      Dear Jane, obviously not your real name.

      Your rage in response to your abuse is natural, but when you turn it into a philosophy, a lifestyle and an identity you render yourself useless to all other sufferers. Your words say that you will not accept victimisation, but you have no control over victimisation, only over whether you become a victim.

      You do not have an exclusive license on trauma, many people have gone through what you have been through and far worse. It is not being victimised that determines whether you remain traumatised and whether your life is disabled by your experience – it is whether you choose choose to remain a victim, stuck in hopelessness and rage. No one can deny you the opportunity to help others, they don’t have the power, but you cannot help others until you have moved beyond your rage. The unhealed cannot bring healing.

      Going on your post, all you have to offer right now is anger, blame, punishment (revenge really) and continuing hurt. “Justice’ will not stop rape from happening, never has. What will stop rape and all violence is our society evolving to a place in which people do not feel powerless, because that is what creates violence. It is what created the violence against you, and it’s creating your violence against others.

      I have great empathy for your experience, I too have been through childhood sexual abuse and violence, and I have spent my time consumed by rage, but right now you are part of the problem, not the solution. Heal yourself first, then help others.

      • Jane Doe says:

        I think that your systemically an issue on perception. I can not define an entire life in a paragraph. I can not define an entire personality , in a sentence. Life is about perception. What you see is the sum of catalyst of an event. Your answer is your perception= of your view of that event from “your eyes” and not always is the truth , going to be your truth. I am not angry , angry is a waste of money. I would be hurt. Angry is a waste of therapy. Hurt is the underlying issue. Stating any ideology of exclusive license on trauma would be the innuendo I have lived my whole life in the spot light of “victim” another misconstrued disassociation , from the application of I am who I am. You projecting your underlying psychological issues on me , but stand up and saying , I too , am a Jon Doe. But you have choosen to use me as a stepping stone. Once again , the issue is I do not accept my community using me as a victim. Try this , its feels good, I am , I , I . And drop the you. I can speak fine for myself. I appreciate the candor , I appreciate the advice. One hand your giving it, the other , … dot dot dot.

  48. Jane Doe says:

    I just wanted to take a moment , and address the text book psychology of Jon and Jane doe’s. We have read , we have gone to therapy , we have applied what we learned from the social heirarchial past generation of the effect and affected. They did not speak. So , I do not have my picture up. Oh , well. But moving on twards rape culture.. did that therapy really work for you , just want other Jon and Janes to think on it. Did it really help you over come the abuse? I , constantly battle societies rules. I , constantly ask “who told you that?” , “where did you read that ?” and most importantly “did that work for you ?” these are the questions you need to address when ” trying to heal” . See our issue is we are living in a constant state of dated life. Studies on psychology are from 1940 , (most up to date Kaufman , lol) our state demographics for bmi are from 1920’s , our information for health for both men and women still comes from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_papyri and yet our children are genetically evolving , and our minds have developed twice as fast intellectually and technologically faster , each generation more than the next. I ask you what is it that you have done for yourself psychologically that has a benefit for you and the future generations besides reading what was laid out before you , and never thought more of it. When I say systemically I mean the main stream type of thought is we accept what we are told , because we accept what we learn. But Jane and Jon Doe’s think of it like this, and others , the person that assaulted us , didnt they too , tell us it was ok? Its not about revenge its about change. This is 2013 and its about time we start living in the here now. Starting thinking about tomorrow. We are never going to get that far if everything we base our lives on , is from a generation who cant remember their names. No offense intended just a couple of thoughts on you , you , you. (Me)

  49. http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/metro/1122345-who-failed-rehtaeh-parsons is this the society you speak of , when you say , when you judge , when YOU DECIDE that it I , or we , them who should walk away? Is this ok with you? Is this what Rape and Crises abuse was intended for? Is this what you mean by ignore our children? What is it you really think? What is acceptable for your OWN children?

  50. Christopher93 says:

    So it seems that America’s “rape culture” is entirely connected to America’s bizarre obsession with and fetishization of their high school and university sports teams.

  51. Deb McManus says:

    You’re tired of hearing about the rape culture? Then do something about it. Teach your sons not to rape, teach your daughters to demand respect. And most off all stop blaming the victim. When you do, you ARE the problem.

  52. This may be controversial but it’s pertinent to the topic so here goes. Several of my past girlfriends have told me that they have a rape fantasy and have wanted me to fulfil the fantasy through sexual roll playing.

    I’ve always felt weird about it so I’ve never actually gone through with it. My question is; is it okay to role play a rape fantasy if it’s between consenting adult who are in a committed relationship? If so, does this contribute to rape culture?

  53. also, here’s an interesting article that ran in an Australian website recently – http://www.mamamia.com.au/social/sexual-assault-and-alcohol/
    worth a read

  54. kirstensara says:

    Thank you. Really brave, powerful, and important piece.

  55. This is really disgusting. women- young girls- blamed and called sluts for what? Drinking (maybe their first drinks) and falling asleep. Women/girl: drinks and is called a slut/whore, Boys: RAPE someone and are sympathesied with for being punished. It didn’t ‘just happen’ to them, they actively chose to rape and use an unconscious person! That these people exist in America, who immediately think women are to blame and are sluts for drinking, or even just ‘getting raped mean they must be sluts,’ I agree, is ridiculous! What if a man got drunk and passed out and was raped, would he be a slut?
    The boys committed a crime, a horible crime, and they are considered victims, for being punished for their crime, crazy.

  56. The writer does a good job demonstrating there is a ‘rape culture’ inherent in our sports institutions. This is a valid problem that needs to be addressed.

    However, she utterly fails to demonstrate there is a ‘rape culture’ in wider society. A few off color ads and politician gaffes does not meet the high burden of proof required to prove the existence of a rape culture.

Trackbacks

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