Kyle Lovett offers a rebuttal to Men’s Rights opponents.
On of the biggest hurdles that MRAs often face is contending with the simple and somewhat basic fact that Men’s Rights aren’t about women. When discussions about sex and gender problems stray into men’s issues, it’s almost impulsive for some to exclaim things like “What does this have to do with women?” or “Why do you hate women?” It’s frustrating at times, because the idea that men have their own set of distinct problems is hard for some to accept. At first I wasn’t sure if the word “rights” threw people for a loop, or that somehow they believe any discussion that revolves around the sex of a person by default must mean that women are involved, or maybe it was the simple ignorance that Men’s Rights aren’t about women.
Now, it has become very clear that men have become the “other” sex in our culture. There is a term which is used often in social justice circles called “othering/othered.” “Derailing for Dummies” defines it as such:
“Othering” is a system of social markers that defines “Us” and “them”, neatly and conveniently categorising people into their appropriate places within society. It’s a way of defining a secured and positive position in the world by stigmatising “others”. In other words, it’s the process of dehumanising anyone different to the Chosen Privileged.
Another way to define the term is that it posits one group as the default or the norm, and all other groups as the “other”. The default group has many advantages over the “others” as it usually is the group which controls the dialogue within society.
We have always been a culture that has been protective of women in many respects: it’s a chivalric notion that has been embedded in old social gender roles where both sides had their own distinct advantages and disadvantages. For women, before the turn of the twentieth century, with that kind of protection came the unfortunate side effect of viewing them as behind the scenes and without a voice in the decisions of the larger social group. After World War I, women were able to start breaking free from a lot of these rigid gender roles, and have increasingly found they are no longer bound by most of these confinements.
The feminist movement played a large part in advancing women away from these gender roles, but as it progressed into the late twentieth century, many of the more vocal/radical groups in the movement took to a path of demonizing men. This has become the accepted social discourse for many decades now. When sex and gender issues are discussed and debated, women and the problems they face are the default topic. This is a privilege that they have taken ownership of in society; men have been “othered.”
Men, however, have not found their way free of society’s expectations of them, especially in the bottom and middle classes of society. This is expressed in phrases like: “Man up!” “Don’t cry.” “Stop being a pussy.” “Provide for your family, or you are a deadbeat.” “Be the protector, place women’s lives ahead of your own.”
These are still beat into us everyday, reinforced by popular culture and by other men who have been slow to adapt to the radical shift in gender expectations. Much of it comes from men who claim they are feminist, but in fact (and some who are perhaps completely unaware of it), are upholding the old notion of chivalry with dogged determination. They are in fact shaming other men into conforming to an old gender role system, which actually no longer exists. This has caused a strange and painful imbalance.
While justifications and rationalizations for accepting men’s suffering so causally are endless; they almost all exhibit this tint of viewing men as the “othered” sex. We can see this most prominently in issues where men harm other men or men who harm themselves. For example, MRAs see the extreme disproportionate number of suicides among men as a big problem. This does not mean that (a) MRAs want more women to commit suicide or (b) that the problem of male suicides is directly or indirectly caused by women. It’s an issue of compassion, one where we see that men’s expected roles in society and their expected internalization of devastating emotions, is a problem that needs immediate attention on an individual and societal level.
While callous and dehumanizing, some feminists (especially feminist men) adhere to the privileged starting point of being the default concern. This view sadly explains the high number of men’s suicide as unimportant because it isn’t an issue where women are the focus. Basically, what used to be known in feminist circles as the “what about teh menz” argument, has in reality become one of “what about the womenz.” In essence, it completely ignores the basic fact that these are human beings that deserve our compassion.
In my last post, which drew the ire of lots of feminists (mostly male feminists), I stated some basic facts which are of grave concern to MRAs. Most of this ire exhibited many of these dehumanizing marginalizations of men based on:
Chivalry or male feminist chivalry gender role shaming.
• “What about the womenz” – The privileged default of the gender discussion ownership
• “Othering dehumanization” – Another type of privileged default of the gender discussion ownership
• Justification of dismissal by “victim-perpetrator equivalence blaming”, or better yet, a statement that posits a “male victim / male perpetrator” crime is acceptable because they cancel each other out. It’s another version of “othering dehumanization”.
• Creating a secondary straw-man causation as the root issue, such as class or race, but willfully pretending that class or race somehow makes the people who suffer to be something other than men.
• Positing men’s suffering as women-blaming or anti-feminism, which in reality is another “what about the womenz” argument.
Here is a person that calls themselves dangerpantz, whose response to my recent post was fairly typical of anti-MRAs and feminists. I first list my statistic, then their response, and then under their comments are the excuses and justifications that they use.
Over 28,000 men this year alone will commit suicide
“What the fuck does this have to do with Men’s Rights? Did they commit suicide because they didn’t have rights? This is mostly an economic and class issue.”
Othering dehumanization, “victim-perpetrator equivalence blaming”, straw-man secondary causation.
About 4,200 men will be killed in a work related accident
“Again, work safety issue. Still not seeing how this relates to Men’s Rights. Human Rights issue, certainly. Also more women in the workforce = less men getting injured. So doesn’t feminism benefit men here more than men’s rights?”
Blind chivalry (willful ignorance that men still adhere to the gender role of filling dangerous jobs, forgetting that women do not), “what about the womenz”, straw-man secondary causation.
Over 14,000 men this year will become the victim of a homicide
“Yes. And the perpetrator will most likely be another man.”
Othering dehumanization, “victim-perpetrator equivalence blaming”.
There are over 8 million unemployed men in the US
“This is an economic and class issue again. You can blame the unemployment numbers on the careless practices of unregulated banks… run by men.”
Straw-man secondary causation, “victim-perpetrator equivalence blaming”, and Othering dehumanization (unregulated banks are not the reason for the high unemployment numbers for men).
Men only make up about 41% of college enrollees
“Because men are choosing not to go to college. Mostly because they’re poor. Again… economic and class issue. There are no stumbling blocks in front of men gaining education that aren’t there for women as well.”
Straw-man secondary causation, Othering dehumanization, “what about the womenz” (affirmative action for women still exists in higher education where there is none for men).
Over 230,000 men will be sleeping on the streets tonight, with no shelter to go to
“Seriously. Why is this guy harping about income inequality like it’s a men’s issue and not a human rights and class/economic justice issue.”
Straw-man secondary causation, Othering dehumanization.
Men are dying about 6 years earlier than women. Black men’s life expectancy is barely 70 years compared to white women at 80.6 years
“Women have always lived longer than men on average. Even when women had no rights and men ran everything. This is genetics. Nothing to do with rights at all.”
Othering dehumanization, “what about the womenz”, straw-man secondary causation (it is not genetics, much of it is based on reinforced gender roles and biased legislation that puts the health of women above that of men).
Over 2,000,000 men will be incarcerated at any given point in the US, overwhelmingly for non-violent offenses
“Again. This is a legal issue that has nothing to do with men’s rights. His problem is that people are going to jail for committing crimes? So if someone steals your car and sells it to a chop shop (a non violent crime) they shouldn’t go to jail?”
Straw-man secondary causation, Othering dehumanization.
About 50,000 men are sitting in a US jail, who fell behind in their child support, most because they couldn’t find work
“Again. Another social justice issue. This is a human rights issue and a legal flaw to jail the unemployed when they can’t make child support. Unless he’s suggesting that men shouldn’t be required to support their child, then this isn’t a men’s rights issue. This is a criminal justice system issue.”
Straw-man secondary causation, Othering dehumanization, “what about the womenz”, chivalric gender role enforcement.
About 180,000 men will be raped and sexually assaulted in prison this year alone
“Yeah. By other men.”
“Victim-perpetrator equivalence blaming”, Othering dehumanization.
Another anti-MRA commentator named diablojr posted this diatribe concerning my post. This kind of hate is becoming both more common and extreme, and is far more dehumanizing than the above post.
Over 28,000 men this year alone will commit suicide
“Wait, what the fuck does this have to do with feminists? Men kill themselves, we can blame a whole lot of social pressures for this, but it most certainly (unless they’re a Redditor) is not due to the feminazis.”
Othering dehumanization, “victim-perpetrator equivalence blaming”, straw-man secondary causation, women blaming.
For the exact same crimes, men will spend an average of 3.14 years more behind bars than women
“How the fuck do you make an exact equivalency for crimes? This statement might just indicate that men are more likely to commit violent crimes in the extreme, or have the physical capability to carry it out to its fullest form (i.e. a woman committing battery might not result in as much physical harm thus receiving a less severe sentence).”
“What about the womenz”, chivalristic gender role enforcement, Othering dehumanization (and this issue has been confirmed by dozens of studies by the DOJ, DOC, FBI and BLS).
About 180,000 men will be raped and sexually assaulted in prison this year alone
“Again, don’t even see what this has to do with anti-mens rights. Apparently we’re also supposed to sympathize with the MRA’s because they are fucking hurt and they have been dragged through an unfair system(in regard to womynz divorcing men and falsely accusing them of domestic violence)”
“What about the womenz”, chivalric gender role enforcement, Othering dehumanization.
“Oh wow, I’m fucking done. These people actually believe this. That the white man is being victimized by the mean old feminists. Clearly, these MRAs are just calling women whores, bitches, and victim blaming because they’ve been spermjacked and had false rape accusations levied against them.”
This type of dehumanizing dismissal of men’s issues is all to common as of late. It rages against the idea that men could in anyway have problems worth fixing, defending the privilege status of women in gender discussions by debasing men’s worth to the lowest common denominator. It’s extreme chivalristic gender role enforcement at its ugliest and more importantly resorts to the all too common unfounded ad hominem attacks.
“I’m sick of all these pretentious pseudo-logical MRAs who attempt to use numbers because it adds credibility. It doesn’t. Just because you quoted some fucking statistic doesn’t make your argument valid. To understand a situation as complicated as gender dynamics one must think through with introspection and reason. But that’s hard. So fuck that and self-victimize away!”
But these aren’t just numbers, these are human beings. This kind of comment reeks of fear and disgust; it turns the very real problems of men into the all familiar cogs of disposability. It almost echos those phrases: “Man up!” “Don’t cry.” “Stop being a pussy.” “Provide for your family, or you are a deadbeat.” “Be the protector, place women’s lives ahead of your own.”
Rights are not just legal, but are also cultural and social in nature. So while women own the default spot on discussions of gender, many feminist groups and people like these two commenters above, are the ones who are using this privilege to control the tone of public discussion. What the net result has become is massive social spending and governmental focus on women’s problems, and the continued marginalization and demonization of men. Women have become the de facto protectorate by an institution of chivalry, and the benefactors of 100’s of laws and billions of dollars.
I think more and more women are becoming fed up with this type of chivalry as well, finding that the promise of complete liberation to have a full voice in the agency of their own mind and body as well as the full responsibility for their actions, is being robbed by a state and a society that is continuing to perpetuate many of the same old gender roles for men. Yes, it is true, some forms of feminism hurt women too. A few feminists are starting to get this point too, but not enough yet to give men a voice or a seat at the table of social equality.
Sometimes its not all about women; its not all about a feminist cause. Sometimes people help other people out of compassion, out of brotherhood and out of a commitment to equal protection under the law.
Photo credit: Flickr / Lara604
I loved this article, this is really the type of material which drew me to this site. I also realize articles like this provoke lost of disagreement and I have to admit I gave up reading the comments since they go in circles. Even with that I still felt compelled to leave one of my own, because there is one thing that I have heard most of my life, and which I have seen written here in these comments over and over again that is the idea that there is some fundamental male privilege. This does not mean that I… Read more »
The numbers become much more comparable when you move from lifetime to “in the last 12 months.” When you look at that, it is (if I remember correctly) 2.1% of men were forced to penetrate versus 2.3% of women who were raped or targets of attempted rape. Where abouts was that, I’m having trouble finding it. Are you sure they didn’t mean ‘of the assaults that happened this percentage happened in the past year’? If 80% of men’s assailants when they are forced to penetrate still is true in the 12 month figure, then that means of all rapes going… Read more »
“I find the scholarly language conflicts with more common language, the word privilege sounds like a benefit for no risk, no effort, no negative yet we know that isn’t true. In order for men to have male privilege, men also take on the burden of sacrifice in war, hazardous work done mostly by men etc. Are the men in power representing all men, do they work for the interests of men or for themselves. ” The opportunity to take those risks is in itself a privilege. You notice women and feminists pushing for years for women to even be allowed… Read more »
Ah ok, I can see how that would be a privilege at least in allowing your gender to be represented in regards to default is male.
I meant academic male privilege terminology, not actually the academic area ie university etc, my brain had a zzzz moment. Basically I meant when people say men are in power (not in university, but everywhere) do they mean any kind of man or just the highest class?
I think it is becoming a bit more clear though, thank-you.
Ah, got your question. K, I’m going to complicate this for you a bit, because I don’t want to just quickly dismiss it by saying when people are referring to men in power they’re probably referring to disproportionate representation of men in positions of power, from upper level managers in businesses and institutions to government. There is also the normative idea men are natural leaders in our society, a notion that affords men some invisible power. From incredibly questionable but extremely popular scientific essays on men’s ‘natural’ role, to fallacious citing of History as justification for men’s dominance over the… Read more »
*but women who express those roles= women who express those traits. oops.
El Ammi – I enjoyed your story very much. I hope to hear more of your wonderful fairy tales. I was raped by my mother when I was 17 and I did not great asked for consent. I am in Chicago today, the windy city, to visit the Sears tower and my cousin Juan.
Adios!
Good god, that’s terrible and I’m so sorry you experienced it. What I meant was both men and women should be taught to ask for consent, but there is no consent you could have given, as a minor and as this person’s child and clearly at a power disadvantage, that would have been legally acceptable or moral. I hope you can heal and find the justice you absolutely deserve.
“The definition also troubles me quite a bit in genderizing sexual abuse, there is a lack of campaigns showing male victims and absolutely none that I know of which show a female perpetrator, I can’t help but feel this gap in awareness is harmful in allowing female perps and male victims to exist “out of sight, out of mind”. There’s a heavy focus on the violence towards women, which is good, but clearly we need a focus on the violence towards men as well to really combat the issues. Some might think this help for men might steal from help… Read more »
Wow, this guy put it really well: “When someone is talking about male privilege or patriarchical institutions, pointing out that women don’t register for the draft, or that abused men don’t have the same access to domestic violence shelters that women do doesn’t negate that. Pointing out that men die at higher rates from work accidents or criminal violence? Sorry, that doesn’t prove anything either. See, the problem with the list that he’s throwing up, and with many of the criticisms that MRA groups and antifeminists seem to have, is that a lot of those complaints and criticisms are about… Read more »
I think the complaint isn’t that it’s the fault of women, but that it’s not seen as sexist against men which really riles up the men. Was it voted in by the majority of men, or put into place by a select few? Was it by a few powerful wealthy men that did it? Are they representative of men as a gender?
Are you familiar with the concept of ‘benevolent sexism’, where things that seem awesome for women (chivalry) are actually in place to re-enforce norms of female frailty? This is kind of the opposite of that- nasty privilege, I guess you’d call it. Women are actively kept out of military roles because they are seen as weak and unworthy protectors and fighters. Sooo, that leaves the worthy protectors, the men. Still based on our cultural norms of dominant male attributes and subservient female attributes.
Does that benevolent sexism also extend to males, ie it seems awesome men can be a soldier but it also re-enforces norms of male disposability?
No, benevolent sexism isn’t privilege- benevolent sexism is where fortunate things appear to be privilege and are, in fact, re-enforcing stereotypes of male superiority, man as the protector, the capable leader, etc. Male disposability isn’t a norm. Throw some adjectives up to describe masculine attributes, like strong, dominant, logical, etc- those are closer to cultural norms. And look to the actual social problems that male disposability attempts to explain- why are most of the soldiers men, for instance? We’ve had the discussion about how women have fought to be in the military and are still discriminated against, and I’ve pointed… Read more »
Alimony, maintenance, positive discrimination, various other women oriented practice would be “benevolent sexism” then why the lack of focus on feminism’s part to dismantle them? They sure seem fine with it.
I was waiting for someone to mention benevolent sexism. Where the negatives women suffer actually do somehow negate the privileges they have. Because if we are going to talk about things “that seem awesome” why is this consideration only extended to women?
Why didn’t you mention it, then? I think I explained the roots of benevolent sexism very clearly, and linked them to a normative understanding that women are weak and frail- the normative understanding equals the sexism. Here:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/faq-female-privilege/
Well, if the good things that happen to women under the supposed patriarchy are due to benevolent sexism and are only given if a woman matches societal expectations of what it means to be a woman, isn’t the same true for “male privilege”? Why isn’t that also benevolent sexism? Transgendered and openly gay men certainly don’t benefit from most supposed forms of male privilege.
Neither do nearly all black men, or a great percentage of blue-collar men.
Alright, you guys are getting your oppressions mixed up. Gay men, black men, and male blue collar workers all experience gender privilege, but they also experience oppression based on their sexual orientation, race, and class respectively. I don’t think anyone would say that your average joe is more privileged than Hillary Clinton, but it’s not a stretch to say she’s less privileged than Bill Clinton- no one doubts his ability to do his job based on his gender. Similarly, A white women might enjoy privileges a black man doesn’t (no one is likely to shoot a white woman for wearing… Read more »
Archy, you totally nailed it. The idea that men in power push female advantaged laws pokes a finger in the eye of patriarchy theory. The idea that just because a lawmaker shares the genitalia of the populace that the target populace (who shares the same genitals) has all the privilege is DEMONSTRABLY shown to be a broken theory. I challenge anybody to state when they have ever heard a lawmaker (of any sex or color) say “I”m going to make things better FOR MEN” even in sly code words. The opposite is totally true. Nearly every third law that passes… Read more »
It’s not just genitals, it’s lived experience and a default sense of reality. A person who has similar experiences with you is probably going to understand the issues you face better. I can point to its absence with women- not a whole lot of talk of child care in work places going on in government right now. But if you had to deal with childcare as part of your workday (a task normally relegated to women) you’d probably have a better understanding of the issues facing working mothers and making provisions for childcare more easily accessible would be as commonplace… Read more »
Along with what Archy says its not always a matter of trying to say that the things that harm men cancel out male privilege (although some will turn around and say that the harms that affect women cancel out female privilege).
Female privilege isn’t really a thing.
calling it a “benevolent sexism” doesn’t change what it is, anymore than calling a bull a cow would make him start to produce milk. Privileges are benefits granted to you by society that you didn’t earn. They don’t magically change into something else just because you’re a woman.
For every male “privilege” there is an oppression associated with it too. Same as with women.
to deny that is to deny objective reality.
Except the term comes with an analysis of the society we live in and how power structures work. Privilege is a larger concept than all of the nice things that happen to you throughout the day, it is also part of re-enforcing larger social power structures. If you keep looking at privilege as just a collection of nice things, and say ‘but you have nice things, too!’, you are missing an understanding of the greater socially critical meaning the word ‘privilege’ is supposed to convey.
I reject that definition.Not only is that definition of privilege not consistant with the actual definition of the word “privilege” (like, you know, in the dictionary) I see no reason why “all the good stuff that happens to you” can only really “count” as privilege if the genitalia of the people who are in power matches your own. Men (and women, for that matter) in power almost never work to benefit all men. In fact i can think of exactly 0 instances of this occurring. They are far more likely to work to benefit all women. (Note: far more likely… Read more »
Well, scholarly language tends to be a little more complex than Merriam Webster has space to articulate. That’s why feminism is a whole school of thought, not a one line description. Hey, look, I know it was good enough for the UN and human rights experts and, generally, people who spend their rights studying civil rights, but if you don’t like the definition of the word privilege because it turns out you are in fact part of a privileged group, I suppose You have no choice but to reject the definition. And, similarly, if you don’t like the theory of… Read more »
Okay fine. I’d like you to actually point out where I’ve ever denied that male privilege exists. (the most i’ve done is quibble over whether specific situations really count as a “male” privilege) You can’t becase I haven’t done that. Just because I refuse to accept your particular interpretation that nothing that benefits women “really counts” as privilege doesn’t mean that I don’t see how the system unfairly benefits me as a person. I’m not the “privilege denier” here. YOU are. This is why so many people think that feminists are nothing but victimization-fetishers. Even the things that make your… Read more »
By stripping gender privilege of its essential meaning you are in effect denying it. Worse, you’re co-opting the word in a way that distorts the use it was intended for- to describe a social power structure. So, yes, you are you’re denying gender privilege and any useful analysis of our current social power structures with it.
I find the scholarly language conflicts with more common language, the word privilege sounds like a benefit for no risk, no effort, no negative yet we know that isn’t true. In order for men to have male privilege, men also take on the burden of sacrifice in war, hazardous work done mostly by men etc. Are the men in power representing all men, do they work for the interests of men or for themselves. To me there seems to be an elite of men and a few women at the top who generally have quite a lot of wealth, laws… Read more »
@PDA – I don’t need your patronizing “men’s group” talk, and the dehumanizing “path to healing for me”. You have no idea what I do in my life, and you have no idea of the suffering out there. There is no “women” blaming going on, that’s your projection. When you go to a prison and meet rape survivors, or you go to a homeless shelter or meet the men sleeping on the street, then you come talk to me. In all earnestness and compassion, PDA, I suggest that the approach you are taking may not be the path to healing… Read more »
Guys….what I want to say is calm down a little because everyone is getting really heated and no one is asking for clarity, explanation or accepting empathy on face value.
I would actually like to see what the term “dehumanizing” means to both of you, because my guess is there are some different interpretations going on, some of which are causing really strong reactions including presumptions of othering and patronization. It’s clear people are FEELING patronized and othered, but I’m really not convinced anyone is intending.
There is a big gap here happening, and it’s derailing conversation.
And actually, my take on it is less “calm down” and more…can we listen, perception check, clarify, and still feel things, but allow some dialogue to happen.
Julie, I respect what I see you trying to do, but I’d ask you to let the “refereeing” go, for a bit. It’s clear that what is going on between me and Kyle is making you uncomfortable, but direct communication is sometimes like that.
You’ve repeatedly asked for this dialogue to go the way you want it to go. I feel like I’ve heard you. I hope you can allow the space for me and Kyle the freedom to work this out – or not – however we choose to.
Thank you.
Apologies for any insult brought. As moderators we are charged with keeping the space civil, open for dialogue, and to note when that isn’t happening. I don’t have a personal stake in where either of you take your argument, but I do have a stake in how the argument plays out. If people are accusing each other of dehumanizing each other in a thread, it will get our notice. You all of course are free to argue at will, but we will ask, offline, perhaps, if things pass the point of our commenting policies.
Understood, Julie. Not looking to have a flame war, just let communication happen if it is possible, even if it’s unpretty at times.
I can commit to letting this go if asked by either you or Kyle.
I should have entered any comments in under a moderator voice. It caused confusion. I guess I’m personally interested in conflict resolution (not tamping problems down, but actually digging and examining) and am looking for interventions in that direction also. So, in person, I’d probably ask you both to clarify your intent, define words etc. Not stop the difference mind you, but look at where the reactions spike from.
In any case, that’s nearly impossible to do online 😉 I think the topic of what is or isn’t dehumanizing is interesting stuff.
I’m not patronizing. It was offered in a genuine effort to lower the temperature of this discussion. How you interpreted a wish for your healing is completely and utterly beyond me. What you just projected onto me was pretty vicious, especially coming at the end of a string of insults, derision and efforts to shame. And your final shot was to tell me that the suffering of my friends, men who are not homeless and in prison, is not “real.” Imagine if someone else had said that to you. Rather than spit curses and vitriol back at you, I’m going… Read more »
OK Im done here, Patriarchy is a myth – yet we bring the talk about men’s issues back to that of women. This is why feminism will never be able to fix the issues men face.
If you start a sentence with ‘patriarchy is a myth’, yeah, the discussion will be about women. Maybe you don’t need to fix the issues facing men starting with that premise?
Kyle has a point. I can’t imagine why there would be any discussion of women on a post entitled “What About teh Womenz” that features a picture of a grimacing woman at the top and dozens upon dozens of comments minimizing women’s issues. At my men’s group, we regularly have men dealing with the pain of maternal abuse, divorce etc. and somehow we manage to help a man do his work without blaming and dismissing women… or themselves. In all earnestness and compassion, Kyle, I suggest that the approach you are taking may not be the path to healing for… Read more »
El Ammi – Someone left this as a comment on reddit, and I think it’s fitting here. (though I don’t fidn the religion part humorous)
Wow. That’s really the kind of comment you find fitting: the idea that well-off women can’t possibly suffer any kind of oppression than the economic? “Sure, her husband beats her to a pulp every night, but look at the dubs on that Benz.”
Now who’s dehumanizing? Jesus.
Jesus isn’t. And ‘White Knight’ much? Always come to El Ammi’s defense like they can’t speak for themselves. And who said it’s dehumanizing? It was a quote aboute Gloria Allred. Why do you assume she is being beaten? I honestly don’t see feminists and MRAs coming together until they drop this silly oppression language.
Why assume white knight when it may be his actual opinion. I agree that money doesn’t erase issues overall. Let’s actually ask some clarifying questions instead of accusing each other?
How on earth am I supposed to know the context: this is an orphan comment at the end of the page (hint: there is a “reply” button) and saying something was “on Reddit” is about as helpful as saying it is “in English.” So now I know the context. Great. What does it matter if this comment is about an attorney that has been on TV (which is all I know about Allred) or someone else? It’s a dehumanizing, sexist, classist slam that treats the target as merely the member of a group, rather than a human being. And pro-tip,… Read more »
‘This silly oppression language’ are descriptors of how we live our lives, and the way you casually dismiss it by pointing out some women experience class privilege?’ Some people of colour have high incomes, too- is racism dead? And you claim to want MRA’s and feminists to come together, but when a man (based on your pic, PDA) makes some critical points of his own based on what you’ve said to me, you make the incredibly sexist and dismissive accusation he is a ‘white knight’, a term used by PDA’s and MRA’s to describe a man who helps women to… Read more »
white knight’, a term used by PDA’s and MRA’s
“PUAs,” one hopes you meant. 😉 I do help my fiancée get into her dress sometimes, but since she eschews the skintight jean fashion she hasn’t needed any help in the pants department.
Ahaha, yes, PUA’s. I’m a fan of the PDA’s!
When you start a sentence with ‘someone left this comment on reddit’ and expect to post something insightful, you really ought to stop and reflect on what you’re doing.
Archy: “that is akin to saying the institutions that pressured women to be housewives was justified because some women were happy as housewives. ” What about institutions that pressure men into fighting in wars, being the police n protecting others with their life, even the institution pushing men to be the provider, could similar arguments be made of exploitation? Again not looking for an argument, trying to find out meanings to the words used by each person and what they mean by them. Women were legally barred from those professions for years and years and are still fighting to receive… Read more »
Ugh, bit rambly up there- sorry, I’m up late. Here’s a CNN report on the American military and sexual assault. Canada is probably bad, too, but it was this report that made its way to my fb page a few months ago: http://articles.cnn.com/2008-07-31/us/military.sexabuse_1_sexual-assault-sexual-abuse-military-service?_s=PM:US
I usually reply at 3am on here, it’s 3pm atm for me so that might give indication of when my brain isn’t working:P. On husbands and sexual assault, the CDC stats show up to 1:1 forced to penetrate and forcibly penetrated victim rates, 1.1% for both genders in the 12 month category and 79.2% of the men report a female abuser. Not gonna try assume it’s perfectly even levels, but I do assume the rate of sexual abuse between genders is closing in gap which really worries me since I’d hope both sides would have less n less with better… Read more »
i wrote a long reply and the site reloaded and I lost it. So sorry if this sounds short, but I already said it a second ago. Do the stats from the CDC say women and men have the same rate of aggravated sexual assault? I’d like to see that link please. That isn’t the case in Canada, even by self reported violence statistics. Also, I clicked on a CDC page and it didn’t have any numbers for rape. Oppression tends to be amplified the more oppressive traits you have. A black man and a black woman would experience oppression… Read more »
ht tp://www.renwl.org/men-raping-men-in-us-military-catapults-past-assaults-on-women/11165/ Seems the number in number % is lower, but overall more victims for men due to more men in the military, 1 in 20. ht tp://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/NISVS/index.html in the full report, start around page 18, table 2.1 and 2.2, the number that stands out is the 12month category with rape for women and forced to penetrate under the male heading @ 1.1% each. about page 24 I think is the 79.2% of men reporting the female abuser, so for the last 12 months it’s roughly 60% male rapist, 40% female rapists if my dirty math is correct. This stat… Read more »
12% of the reported rape cases are men. It seems somewhat reminiscent of the general population (8% of rape cases are men). Further, it seems that men are the perpetrators in these cases. There is no mention of whether men or women are perpetrators in the general population, but it does give me cause to wonder- who is doing the assaulting? Yes, that was the report I was reading earlier- how did we come across such different numbers? “Nearly 1 in 5 women and 1 in 71 men in the U.S. have been raped at some time in their lives.”… Read more »
“Yes, that was the report I was reading earlier- how did we come across such different numbers? “Nearly 1 in 5 women and 1 in 71 men in the U.S. have been raped at some time in their lives.” ” Because the definition of rape has a bias, it means 1 in 5 women and 1 in 71 men were subject to attempted or successful forced penetration. Being forced to penetrate was defined under the “other sexual assault” category, but many tend to agree it is still rape. It’s a clear example of bias towards reporting on male victimization in… Read more »
Wow, that is a terrible definition of rape. I am not seeing where the category –describes the gender of the perpetrator. And there are no numbers in the ‘made to penetrate’ category. Seems strange.
Should a mother get the same chance to ‘opt out’ when a baby is born? You’re confusing reproductive rights with child welfare rights. But child support is determined by the courts based on what the other parent can provide.
Alright devil’s advocate- no there is no violation of human rights. Physical autonomy and financial autonomy are not the same thing. Your money is not ‘you’.
Page 24 describes the perpetrator in the full report if I remember correctly. Most rape victims report a male, since rape is defined as forcibly penetrating someone so women would either have to use hands or objects but most non-forcibly penetrated victims report a female perpetrator, 79.2% for forced to penetrate, 83.6% for coercion, 53.1&^% unwanted sexual contact n so on. Numbers are tables 2.2 for made to penetrate, there’s 2 tables 1 under the other, first one for women and second for men, page 18 for table 2.1 and page 19 for table 2.2. I absolutely hate their definition… Read more »
It’s certainly not a healthy view on the definition of sexual assault- 1 in 21 males (with no indicators as to age) report being forced to penetrate, with women making up about 79% of the perpetrators. 1 in 4 women report forced penetration, with men making up 98% of the perpetrators. For the ‘other’ category, 1 in 2 women and 1 in 5 men report some other form of sexual assault. And while there is data available on how old the victims were for (their definition of) rape, there is nothing for the ‘other’ category of sexual assault, just that… Read more »
Thank-you, I’ll try the spermicidal lube as well as doing my best to avoid orgasm whilst still “inside”. Yeah the definition of rape is terrible, I see it commonly shown as mostly perpetrated by men against women and male victims especially of female perpetrators are treated as if it’s very rare. However these stats show it to be far more common than I use to think, and I’m sure more common than many realize which is what really worries me. It’s the first study I’ve seen to really go indepth like that and be able to include envelopment, to me… Read more »
El Ammi writes: “it’s certainly not a healthy view on the definition of sexual assault- 1 in 21 males (with no indicators as to age) report being forced to penetrate, with women making up about 79% of the perpetrators. 1 in 4 women report forced penetration, with men making up 98% of the perpetrators.” The numbers become much more comparable when you move from lifetime to “in the last 12 months.” When you look at that, it is (if I remember correctly) 2.1% of men were forced to penetrate versus 2.3% of women who were raped or targets of attempted… Read more »
@John Gottman D : 1.1% and 1.1% for men and women for the 12 month category. The tables are 2.1 and 2.2 if I remember correctly. 79.2% of males forced to penetrate report a female attacker.
“Should a mother get the same chance to ‘opt out’ when a baby is born?.” They have that, it’s called “adoption” and barring that there are laws in the US (I don’t know if they exist in Canada) that state that a woman can legally abandon her child at a firehouse or hospital. (Safe Haven laws if you want to look them up) Furthermore, a woman has the ability to place her baby up for adoption against the wishes of the father and if she does it in the right state (Utah for example) the courts will work to block… Read more »
El Ammi: “Alright devil’s advocate- no there is no violation of human rights. Physical autonomy and financial autonomy are not the same thing. Your money is not ‘you’.” It is when you can be forcibly imprisoned for failure to pay. We did away with debtor’s prison over 100 years ago, but they are back for fathers. Also, the courts have the right to impute the income they feel you “should” be making. If you get knocked out of a high-paying job and can’t find the same work your arrearages can mount quickly if you’re only making a fraction of what… Read more »
It’s not a violation of human rights when we imprison a criminal. Theft is illegal, and even if you don’t believe in ‘ownership’ we can still justly be imprisoned if we take other people’s things. Now if you’re saying there is undue pressure on some fathers paying child support to make payments they can’t afford, I’m inclined to believe that, and I definitely think that problem needs to be addressed. But if a father can’t make child support payments, he’s not the only one suffering here. Either someone’s stepping up to fill that gap or the child goes unsupported- child… Read more »
El Ammi: …why aren’t abused women’s advocates speaking up on behalf of abused men. Actually my question is why are women’s advocates speaking out against abused men. To me “bare minimum” would be as simple as not talking about it which I’m fine with. There’s a lot to be done for women victims and I can certainly agree that we as men should be doing our own thing or even that women’s advocates are just not able to divide their resources between the two. The problem is why do they spend some of those resources to down play male victims.… Read more »
Well, a lot of what I said above still applies. These groups are facing funding cuts, a greater number in clientele, women’s shelters are filling needs that medical centers should be, and along with the cuts, the increase in need with the decrease in resources are governments that are legislating away health services for women, officials publicly suggesting they should stay with abusive partners. And then these studies that are reminiscent of studies in the seventies that eventually proved to be false. They’re speaking out because they don’t buy it. There has been a constant barrage of misinformation about women’s… Read more »
There has been a constant barrage of misinformation about women’s issues in the media, it was a tact tried before, and the rhetoric isn’t ‘help out men in need’ but ‘see, men have it bad too, so inequality doesn’t exist. Further, why aren’t you sharing your ever shrinking funding that doesn’t cover the current need with abused men?’ And let’s not act like the misinformation is only happening to women’s issues in the media. And I said nothing of the rhetoric you speaking. Yes it does exist and there are people putting unfair expectations on women’s advocates but that is… Read more »
I’m not really sure what misinformation about men’s interests in the media you’re referring to. Reports on self-reported domestic violence against men have made headlines, often with the leads similar to ‘Women Abuse as Much as Men, Study Says’. Some advocates for women who are victims of abuse are skeptical, and they give their reasons quite plainly. Also, these studies don’t take into account what happens after the partners separate, where the potential for violence against women significantly increases and the potential for violence against men significantly decreases. And all I’ve read thus far make the point that dv against… Read more »
I say misinformation because of often times when stories like female against male violence are reported they are reported in a different light. Such as stories of female against male violence being led off with “why” she did it as if trying to justify her actions.
Question the analysis of data is one thing but its quite another to go from that to saying that what happens to men is not that big of a deal. Sure not all women’s advocates do it but it certain does happen.
When I hear a statement asserting that a particular “privilege” exists, I try to test it using what I call the Magic Wand test. It’s not a foolproof analysis, but it’s very revealing. Basically, ask someone who does not enjoy the alleged privilege: if you had a magic wand you could wave that would instantly make you a member of that privileged group, would you use it? If the answer is no, then why not? So, for example, if male privilege is so powerful, ask a woman if she could instantly become a male instead of a female, would she… Read more »
…So people of colour are not oppressed if they don’t want to be white? Do you think gay people would wave a wand to become straight. Or maybe people are just secure in their own identity and recognize it’s the world that’s messed up, not them.
I am not saying these issues aren’t important and deserving of oppression, I am saying they are not stemming from systemic gender oppression. If anything, these problems exist from the pressure of maintaining male privilege. But, yes, they are class issues. Strawman secondary causation, what about the womenz, othering dehumanization Class issues, that effect men in greater numbers. Somehow, a person’s class negates their gender now? They are systemic, because men are disposable. Unless you are the top rich “alpha” male, then you are a disposable cog in a never ending wheel of suffering; suffering they need to “man up”… Read more »
Wow. El Ammi disagrees with you and s/he is guilty of “othering dehumanization?” Even after acknowledging that s/he is “not saying these issues aren’t important?”
Can you understand how incredibly dismissive it is to say that unless people agree with you, they’re not merely mistaken but callous and cruel? <bReally, really ironic in the comments of an article calling other people to task over silencing and shaming others.
Have you read her posts?
She knows everything. She’s right, and you’re wrong. If you look at something from another perspective, then you’re wrong, because gender is the only lens through which to view the world. Men’s issues don’t matter, and if they do, they can only be solved with More Feminism! (when all you have is a hammer…).
She isn’t acting like a person who’s talking to adults. She’s acting like someone who’s attempt to educate children. And yes, that is demeaning.
Yes, I am viewing the world through a gendered lens- we are discussing gender issues.
I’d like to take a pause here and say what I’m seeing. It’s so easy to miss empathy and connection when it is offered especially online. I see El Ammi acknowledging issues. And I see Kyle reaching out with real frustration. I see people missing each other and not really “hearing.” All of which leads to this idea that someone is dehumanizing someone else. Which I don’t think is the case. Comment threads are really hard places to get this emapathy and connection going, and I see increasing tension on both sides. Is there a new angle that could be… Read more »
I think these types of conversations are good, to the extent it is uncomfortable to come to real understandings. And I see both sides sticking it out here which is good; and I bet sooner or later we all may realize that their is no “both” sides, just one side, one humanity. Language and terms are very important to people, and sometimes that language can hurt more than people can see. El Alamni says male privilege and I say dehumanizing; both hurt for different reasons. We must make room for pain if progress is to be made. Thank you Julie… Read more »
No, sir, I am challenging your terms and explaining why they don’t work. You brought up the one percent, not I, but it seems you are interested in playing ‘who is the most disadvantaged gender down the classes’. Women have a lower income, are put into positions of authority less frequently, single mothers make up the majority of the poor, and the status of women in the USA has been in decline for the past two decades. Really? Well you have an answer to your question- you know why people insist on discussing women when you are trying to address… Read more »
So far in my quest to understand the world, I’m wondering if it’s really both genders face oppression/struggle/whatever name but in different areas? Can both genders be oppressed at the same time?
Well, if you’ve abandoned the gender binary, quite a few genders are being oppressed as we speak- but cis male is not the oppressed gender, it’s the most powerful. That isn’t to say your life is sunshine and roses- people don’t just abandon their cultural roles and not expect repercussions. And I don’t know you- it’s quite possible there are other oppressive factors in your life. There are a lot of ways in which people are oppressed- class, age (for the elderly), race, gender orientation, mental/physical ability, etc. The best model for understanding privilege is this thing called ‘the flower… Read more »
Yay I’m half n half flower. I’m guessing this is a simplistic model as it doesn’t have intelligence, class, etc? What I’m really curious now is can male privilege in the west be closer to female privilege, whilst class privilege can be massively different? Can class privilege leave most men and women in similar straights, yet a few at the top could be vastly different, eg rich man or woman compared to poor man or woman? I see a lot of comments of people who don’t feel privileged, and quite a lot of comments of men in power but those… Read more »
There really isn’t such a thing as ‘female privilege’. It’s ‘feminine things you like doing that maintain the current power dichotomy (I’m ok analyzing it in the sense of gender binary because that is the ideological ‘ideal’). Privilege and oppression aren’t in and of themselves individualistic- if they don’t serve in maintaining a larger structure of ‘dominant group’ over ‘other’ then they are simply injustices.
“People have moved beyond explaining how men are over represented in politics, most high status professions, have higher incomes, how we learn more about them is school, and are working to fix that problem” People have become good at ignoring how men are over represented in homelessness, suicides, prisons, homicide victims, have lower high school and college rates, die sooner, have higher rates of cancer and HIV; how we learn more about them being “creepy” instead of being humans, and are working to marganalize their voices because men don’t really matter unless they are the top 1%. People only look… Read more »
People have become good at ignoring how men are over represented in homelessness, suicides, prisons, homicide victims, have lower high school and college rates, die sooner, have higher rates of cancer and HIV; how we learn more about them being “creepy” instead of being humans, and are working to marganalize their voices because men don’t really matter unless they are the top 1%. People only look above, and never see who they are walking on. FTFY I am not saying these issues aren’t important and deserving of oppression, I am saying they are not stemming from systemic gender oppression. If… Read more »
I am not saying these issues aren’t important and deserving of oppression, I am saying they are not stemming from systemic gender oppression. If anything, these problems exist from the pressure of maintaining male privilege. But, yes, they are class issues.
I think that’s what gets people riled up. The damages that are done to men is treated like its a side effect of trying to keep women down rather than a built in feature of a system where those in power actively keep everyone else down for their own gain.
“The damages that are done to men is treated like its a side effect of trying to keep women down rather than a built in feature of a system where those in power actively keep everyone else down for their own gain.”
Yes.
And this is a hard thing to unthread isn’t it. Where is it class? Where is it gender? Where is it accidental?
And one thing that gets frustrating is that people will say in one breath that the system keeps everyone down but in the next breath will right to what I said above. I’m thinking what makes it “hard” to unthread is that multiple people have multiple answers and when they cross paths they clash and clash hard. There are those who say that when it come to harming men a man’s gender has absolutely nothing to do with it. There are those who say a man’s gender is only a part of it. There are those that will say that… Read more »
Fair enough, that can’t be fun to hear. And it does speak to the title of the article ‘but what about teh womenz- people attempting to discuss the problem of diminishing problems of abused men get bogged down explaining oppression. But if the discussion came from the perspective cultural norms supporting male privilege can be harmful to men, you would have an accurate critical analysis of why these norms exist.
But if the discussion came from the perspective cultural norms supporting male privilege can be harmful to men, you would have an accurate critical analysis of why these norms exist. At the risk of spiraling out of control further I think this may be a problem here. What good does it to tell a male abuse victim that he has male privilege in the face of evidence all throughout out culture (at least in the States) that male abuse victims are being actively denied help? What good does it do to tell these men that they are being denied because… Read more »
If you mean what should front line workers tell victims of abuse, it doesn’t pay to shove critical analysis down the throats of men or women. But if you are looking to change the system, then an accurate understanding of why that system is in place is important. Male privilege exists whether or not it’s comfortable to acknowledge it, but once you acknowledge it you can begin to deconstruct it and start to question masculine stereotypes.
Oh I’m all for analysis. But that analysis can only go so far. How can you deconstruct those stereotypes and change the system when people keep dragging it back to “its because you have male privilege”?
Male privilege is the starting point of the deconstruction, not the end. And it’s not ‘because You have male privilege’, problems like ignoring the abuse of men exist to Maintain male privilege. The physical abuse of women was consistent with the power structure at the time, so women had to work to get it recognized as illegal and work to find shelters for women who suffered it. The problem facing men is that the abuse of men Isn’t consistent with the current power structures, so people overlook it. To shine a light on the abuse of men is to shine… Read more »
The problem facing men is that the abuse of men Isn’t consistent with the current power structures, so people overlook it. I’m not trying to point a finger at you but I have to disagree with the idea that its not consistent with some sort of power structure is why people overlook it. If that were the case then at least people who claim to be against the current power structure would at the very minimum acknowledge it but plenty of them, far too many of them don’t. If anything you could almost argue that it is consistent considering that… Read more »
Well, battered women’s advocacy groups aren’t the equivalent of institutionalized patriarchal power I was referring to, but I see what you’re saying- why aren’t abused women’s advocates speaking up on behalf of abused men. I can wager a guess without being absolutely certain of the answer. A few reasons- the assertion men are abused as much as women is reminiscent of the 70’s when protection of abused women was first being fought for and people confused self-defense with ‘mutual battery’. There are studies from the 90’s that indicate men are actually more likely than women to report violence to the… Read more »
Feminists remind me too much of Economists – they think that because they learned something in a class, it must actually be 100% true.
Even when the real world says otherwise.
“The ‘presumption’ is that we live in a patriarchy. And, yeah, we aren’t rehashing that debate. It’s been pointed out and is a fact, and has been treated as such for years.” A fact? Really? Since when? The Patriarchy is no more a fact than the Matriarchy. It is a bit scary how religious people can hold on to this idea, and yet give no statisical nor empiracal evidence. Top 1% are mostly men…..and that is parlayed that the top 1% grant privlieges to all men, just because they are men. It’s ridiculous. Also, if we are going to talk… Read more »
Um, that’s not a very good description of the patriarchy? And what are you implying anyway? Is the whole racism thing a farce as well because, um, legislators and corporate and media execs couldn’t possibly hold enough power to influence our culture? And I wasn’t going to talk about exploitation of workers in the porn industry, I was going to focus on the ideological messages the porn industry says. You realize the discrimination women face even getting in the door in the industries you’ve named? And the (rightful) regulations and health and safety standards and relative longevity of these positions… Read more »
What’s the rate of sexual assault for the men in Alberta? Is it limited to women in the skyrocketing numbers? I’m not trying to cause an argument but the way it sounds is that it’s mostly harming women, are there stats on this recently to show it’s mostly against the women or are the men also getting abused quite a lot? Not quite sure why you’re saying the women get sexually abused a lot there?
Well, it still appears women are being sexually assaulted more than men, with adult men making up eight percent of the total sexual assaults reported by adults. Of that 8%, homosexual men and disabled men are especially at risk. And in Alberta, men are the perpetrators in most dv disputes according to self reported surveys. And it is bloody hard to get recent province specific data, let me tell you. You might want to try your own search and see if you can dig up anything more recent, but this is what I have:
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2011/statcan/85-224-X/85-224-x2010000-eng.pdf
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85f0033m/2010024/part-partie1-eng.htm#h2_9
http://aasas.ca/index.php/main/page/fact-sheet-men-sexual-abuse-sexual-assault-2010-09-24-15-09-17
@El Ammi
I’m going to assume that, since you didn’t answer my question, the answer is no you haven’t ever actually spoken to any sex workers.
Okay then.
Wow, what about all of my other words! My incredibly valid and interesting words, all dismissed because I failed to answer one personal question? About people in my life? Nah, this isn’t about me or who I know, we can chat about ideas without becoming personal.
i don’t really see any point in continuing. You’ve assumed that homemade porn actresses are “exploited” and coerced. (for that matter you believe this about the rest of them too) And you believe this… because? Because they engage in an activity that you yourself would never do? You’ve given an assertation without any relevant proof. Further, as I said, I don’t see why there’s anything *inherently* more exploitative in porn than in any other type of employment. (emphasis, again, on inherently.) I’ve provided you with the blog of an actual sex worker who doesn’t agree with your worldview. I can… Read more »
Are you talking to me? That’s not what I said at all!! I said if you can honestly say they are not exploited, then go for it! Seriously, i am having so many words shoved into my mouth I could probably make a porn myself.
El Ammi:
…for something to be oppressive it has to be directed towards a group in an overall system of diminishing the relative power of that group.
Question.
How does this not apply to men who are abused by women but are disregarded/dismissed because they are men who were abused by women?
Because they are disregarded based on assumptions of male physical superiority.
So are we saying that a presumption of male superiority is disqualifies it as oppression. Does this also count in instances of a presumption of female superiority?
The ‘presumption’ is that we live in a patriarchy. And, yeah, we aren’t rehashing that debate. It’s been pointed out and is a fact, and has been treated as such for years. You know how creationists keep denying evolution and trying to get it out of textbooks by endlessly asking the same question over and over until people who just want to get on with discovering new truths are sick of talking to them? That is the equivalent of claiming we live in a Matriarchal society. That people are entertaining that idea despite overwhelming commonsense and statistical evidence to the… Read more »
And, yeah, we aren’t rehashing that debate. I don’t recall saying anything about rehashing. Look I know some of you folks hold your ideas of patriarchy as some sort of sacred undeniable truth and that any who question it is marked a heretic that hates women, the desire for equality for all people, and kittens that don’t play with yarn. I guess that’s why you felt frightened enough to try to predict a desire to rehash where there is none. But to ask are you saying that even in metrics where women are considered superior the presumption of female superiority… Read more »
You don’t have to say it, you did it. There are decades of statistical analysis, studies, empirical evidence and critical studies about the patriarchy we live in. People have moved beyond explaining how men are over represented in politics, most high status professions, have higher incomes, how we learn more about them is school, and are working to fix that problem. Are you an American? Check out the status of women in your country compared to other first world nations- pretending that actual facts with years of proof are up for debate has been incredibly harmful to American women. Further,… Read more »
Further, when someone points out you are debating something that is pretty much irrefutable given the data (use of the word heretic = pretty gd ironic), you act petulant and say they are branding you as a woman hater? Petulant? The problem with the data isn’t so much what the data shows but what is done with the data. But if you want to call someone petulant for wondering why people use stats to disregard male victims then go ahead. That’s a lot of projection right there, and maybe you can spend some time with that reflection later and ponder… Read more »
We don’t live in a patriarchy. We don’t live in a matriarchy either though. We live in an oligarchy.You think male politicians actually give a rat’s hind what happens to the average man in this country?
This can probably explain it better than I can
http://www.genderratic.com/?p=1058
Amen. Politicians are not our friends. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney don’t care about me, and Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin don’t care about women. Politicians – like the police and the judges – exist to serve people who already have too much money and too much power as it is.
But good luck. Feminism developed as a raging middle-finger toward class-consciousness, and it never really advanced much farther than that.
@PDA – I know exactly why more men are unsheltered and homeless, and it has to do with government spending that focuses on women. I can give you the data there if you like. You keep bringing this whole argument back to the point of my post, ‘what about teh womenz?’ Why can’t I worry about men’s problems without having to always bring the conversation back to women’s issues. Come with me some time to a prison that I’ve visited and listen to a 24 year old black man who has been completed shattered as a human because he was… Read more »
Kyle, I have said over and over and over and over again, as far as I can tell in every comment that I am not raising these questions to say that these problems are not worthy of concern and attention. I was specifically responding to the question “why are these issues not talked about more,” and offering MY OPINION that this is the case because the things Archy described, specifically, are not widespread. I did not say “just because it doesn’t happen to me or the people [I] know, doesn’t mean it isn’t widespread. I said that I had no… Read more »
@PDA – Please don’t marganilize men’s problems because you are privileged. Unsheltered Homeless (2009) [1] Women – 24,000 – 10% Men – 216,000 – 90% Life Expectancy (2006) [2] Women – 80.8 Years Men – 75.7 Years Suicides (2008) [3] Women – 7,585 – 19% Men – 28,450 – 81% Deaths by Homicide (2004) [4] Women – 3,856 – 20% Men – 14,717 – 80% Deaths from Cancer (2004) [4] Women – 269,819 Men – 290,069 Deaths from HIV/AIDS (2004) [4] Women – 3,357 Men – 8,756 Federal Funds for Sex Specific Cancer Research [5] Women – Breast Cancer –… Read more »
ht tp://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/0/4B2A703C9CB10C90CA25732C00207D2C?opendocument
Some more stats for you Kyle. It’s getting annoying to see this stuff get dismissed in favour of seeing women as oppressed and harmed the most, do we need a gender that gets it worse off? I hate the fact that I need to help others try prove the case for caring about men because it sure looks like most as too busy caring ONLY about female issues.
Kyle, I’m not trying to marginalize anything. Please don’t project an adversarial attitude onto me.
What does your collection of statistics show? Is the fact – the absolutely lamentable and heart-rending fact – that there are so many homeless men on the street itself sufficient evidence of anti-male bias? Are there any other possible explanations for the imbalance?
Merely listing numbers doesn’t make any particular case. I’m not at all sure why you think it does.
Ok, this happened: http://www.womensviewsonnews.org/2012/03/mens-rights-activists-named-as-hate-group/
https://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/the-southern-poverty-law-centers-creepy-mission/
Eh, I dunno- I’ve lurked a few men’s rights sites here and there, and while, like seems to be said in the above article, there is a need to specially address how gender roles harm boys and men, men’s rights sites seem a) determined to redefine some pretty important concepts of oppression b) to be undermining hard work feminists have done writing sexual consent into the law if not the public consciousness c) filled with unbridled vitriol towards feminists. Further, porn is pretty harmful- try having a normal, healthy sexual relationship as a young man or woman with the images… Read more »
Do you assume all men watch the same porn? Why do you assume porn is harmful? What kind of porn? I view porn that is pretty much all amateur, real couples having sex or solo females, no power play struggles just everyone having fun and both enjoying it. A lot of women here have also said they watch porn too, so why the focus on how it affects women and not also how it affects men? The harmful stereotypes of porn I hear can also be shown to objectify men yet it’s mostly “womengetitworse”. What I truly wonder though is… Read more »
WHY is there such a huge deafening silence of men’s issues in our society? My perspective – presented without any desire to marginalize or silence you – is that some men take their own harsh experience and project it out to society as a whole, assuming that if it happened to them it must be happening to all men. I hear and honor your experience. I must reject having that experience projected onto me, and onto all men. There is the social oppression regarding men and child-care with the pedophilia hysteria I’m not sure what you are referring to here.… Read more »
My perspective – presented without any desire to marginalize or silence you – is that some men take their own harsh experience and project it out to society as a whole, assuming that if it happened to them it must be happening to all men. I hear and honor your experience. I must reject having that experience projected onto me, and onto all men. At the same time just as the harsh experiences that women face don’t inherently face all women but still qualify as oppression or whatever you wish to call it surely its possibl to recognize that these… Read more »
Just a quick comment on the acceptability of violence against men perpetrated by women- it seems to come down to supporting the macho idea of men being stronger and more physically capable than women, and a woman striking you has the effect of a three year old child. This isn’t new, you see this idea in all sorts of chivalrous activity like holding doors open for women and pulling out chairs. This is just re-enforcing the idea of female frailty. And yes, the individual men are the losers when women’s violence isn’t taken seriously because speaking against it is ‘unmanly’… Read more »
Of its not new and I’m not trying to say that it is. And I find it odd that you say “individual men”. Do not all men fall under this belief? This is what I’m talking about it seems that the fact that it happens to men deems it as individual but switching it to women makes it systemic. How does that work. And I say it is oppressive due to how this belief plays out in the way that services for male victims are limited, the way women who are violent towards men are offered sympathy that is rarely… Read more »
“Of its not new and I’m not trying to say that it is. And I find it odd that you say “individual men”. Do not all men fall under this belief?” What I am trying to say is many men benefit socially from the belief they are powerful and women are frail and incapable. Lost opportunities for women in the workplace, a failure to invest in female athletics, a general expectation with physical power comes the ability to lead, all sorts of over-all privileges. And so many individuals do not deserve to have these qualities ascribed to them, and yet… Read more »
…for something to be oppressive it has to be directed towards a group in an overall system of diminishing the relative power of that group. Question. How does this not apply to men who are abused by women but are disregarded/dismissed because they are men who were abused by women? And one other thing. There seems to be something at work here that says that even if some women benefit from things like the beauty myth its still oppressive to women but at the same time men who benefit from the disregard/dismissal of male abuse victims doesn’t show that this… Read more »
…for something to be oppressive it has to be directed towards a group in an overall system of diminishing the relative power of that group.
Question.
How does this not apply to men who are abused by women but are disregarded/dismissed because they are men who were abused by women?
Because they are disregarded based on assumptions of male physical superiority.
You’re failing to include a basic fact about men and their “privilege”. That superior strength which is sexist against women? Is still sexist against men. It’s the stuff that assumes men are so strong that they don’t need to cry, many are restricted by the macho culture and find it difficult to seek help. They’re also seen as disposable, their life is worth less than that of a woman or child, they are to die to protect them as was the way for military around the world mostly having male soldiers protecting the “weak”. Women also benefit from being seen… Read more »
No. Stop that right now. I’m so sick of this “But it’s *really* about women” crap. A woman abusing a man is not the victim. She is the perpetrator. To say that the shit that male abuse victims go through is some sort of twisted misogyny is vile. Knock it off right now.
I am not saying women abusers aren’t abusers, and the damage they do isn’t harmful! And I absolutely believe there needs to be special consideration payed to male victims of abuse because of the different pressures they face. What I am saying is this is not an example of oppression, this is an example of injustice. And, yes, when you use the word ‘oppression’ incorrectly and attempt to usurp it to describe experiences which do not fit the definition of oppression, expect women to come and argue with you. And if you equate differentiating between injustice and oppression with dismissing… Read more »
And, yes, when you use the word ‘oppression’ incorrectly and attempt to usurp it to describe experiences which do not fit the definition of oppression, expect women to come and argue with you. Well if we could stop this and women that use oppression as a way to dismiss the experiences of those who don’t fit the definition of “real victims” then we’d all be better off (and I think this is part of reason men get riled up because its not just a matter of how oppression is defined but how its used and its being used by some… Read more »
Danny, thank you for your views. However, again: these are your views. And I hear them and honor them as such. What they are not, though, is a persuasive case that this is the way life is for a significant proportion of men. In comparison, the repercussions of male privilege are experienced by a large number of women, if not most. Note (and I will emphasize this in hopes of not being misunderstood): THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT MEN’S INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCES OF INJUSTICE AND ABUSE ARE NOT WORTHY OF CONCERN. It just means that an equivalence between these experiences and… Read more »
It seems that your argument for it not having been shown is that since it happens to men it can’t be systemic. I’ve noticed that yourself and a few of the others here make it a point to specifically say that the things that happen to men are happening on (only?) a individual level even in the face of these thing rising the the level of stereotypes and in come cases actually laws and procedures. And just so we are clear I’m not trying to say that the things that the things that happen to men are equal to what… Read more »
It seems that your argument for it not having been shown is that since it happens to men it can’t be systemic. No, my argument for it not having been shown is that I am a man, have had no personal experience with the things you describe, have had no personal contact with other men who have experienced the things you describe, and have been shown no evidence that the things you describe are at all common or widespread. Again, again, and again: I’m not saying they are not true for you. I have no reason to doubt that. But… Read more »
Even with the numbers that Kyle just shared below? For example men kill themselves at about 4 times the rate women do but we are told that women should be the focus because they attempt it more often. Does that sound right to you? You’d think that the thought would be “we have to help these guys too” but no its not. Below he has a stat about the proportions of homeless men to homeless women. I personally have never seen a homeless woman on the street but I’ve seen plenty of homeless men on the street. Now of course… Read more »
Danny’s reply pretty much filled in the blanks and did a far better job than I could have. As for the repurcussions of male privilege, how about the repercussions of female privilege that are experienced by a large number of men, if not most? ht tp://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2008/06/08/female-privilege/ Systematic gender prejudice against men has existed for quite some time, only recently being removed from many areas which is conscription. One of the new institutionalized (well, at least on some airlines) sexism’s against men is forcing them to move seats when next to children that are not their own. But I have to… Read more »
Archy, I’m not arguing that men don’t have specific needs and issues that should be addressed and aren’t. I am active in men’s groups and I am all too aware of what many of them are: from my own experience, and from that of other men. I’ve said as carefully as I can that I think any experience of injustice or abuse deserves concern. I just don’t see the problem of anti-male prejudice that you describe as being widespread in society. Perhaps I am entirely misguided and badly informed. I have to say, though, you haven’t been of much help… Read more »
“In comparison, the repercussions of male privilege are experienced by a large number of women, if not most.” That checklist is mostly BS. A large percentage of the items on it only apply if you have a job, still more only really apply to elite men (“If I run for office…” is a qualifier most men will never have to worry about) Even more only work as “privileges” if you assume that men in power have the best interests of all men at heart, simply because they are men. This is laughably untrue. Still more are true, but the oppsite… Read more »
I feel pretty comfortable refering to Porn as an industry over-all without getting into specific porn shows and debating whether they are harmful or not. Much like (to drag out the old porn analogy) people would feel comfortable saying fast food is unhealthy and harmful to society without having to worry about people saying ‘But I buy salads at MacDonalds!’. The industry itself is based on a formula of misogyny, objectification, and the female body in service of male gratification. Pull a full stop on making hamburgers and french fries in McDonalds and see if the fast food industry survives… Read more »
What is your view on amateur user created porn? There is an enormous amount of user-made material that you can pretty much have a collection you’d never watch fully of couples and solo non-exploitive, fair share style lovemaking. I dislike the pro industry which does that highly offensive stuff, but do enjoy the amateur industry and hope it puts a major dent in the stuff that treats their actors n actresses like shit. Porn that is simply fun, sexy, no bullshit, and decent should be the mainstream stuff but I think since high-speed internet, a lot are moving towards that,… Read more »
I’d chime in and say (comparing to food and restaurants) that there are a few options out there for “foodies” who are into organic free range images as opposed to industrialized, commodified, fast food. Still, some would argue that the chicken in the fine dining may have been treated better than the chicken at McD’s but they still both wind up consumed for the dining pleasure of the purchaser. I figure people will always consume meat. And people will always find images enticing. So the business model around each should be as ethical and healthy as humanly possible. Humane-ly possible.… Read more »
My view on amateur porn- I don’t know much about it, but if people can look me in the eye and tell me in all honesty no one is being exploited for others, then go for it.
The following is working under the assumption that you believe porn (and presumably other sex work) is inherently exploitative, which I believe is your position. If that is not the case, feel free to disregard. First let me just say that there are definitely abusive practices in the porn/sex industries nd they need to be halted. But, putting that aside for the moment, I have to ask if you’ve ever spoken to anybody in the sex trade? I have. They, each of them, had largely positive experiences (or at least, no larger a proportion of bad experiences than you’d find… Read more »
forgot to add:
You might find this blog interesting
http://feministwhore.wordpress.com/
(don’t let the name throw you, it’s self-descriptive of the author)
I was thinking more about the unregulated nature of home made porn, the possibility people were pressured into being filmed and how much of home made porn is just a reflection of society’s objectification of women, but since you brought it up: it seems when the subject of the ideological harm of porn comes up, the point that some sex workers (often ones who already experience a fair bit of class and race privilege) are happy with their profession. that is akin to saying the institutions that pressured women to be housewives was justified because some women were happy as… Read more »
“that is akin to saying the institutions that pressured women to be housewives was justified because some women were happy as housewives. ”
What about institutions that pressure men into fighting in wars, being the police n protecting others with their life, even the institution pushing men to be the provider, could similar arguments be made of exploitation?
Again not looking for an argument, trying to find out meanings to the words used by each person and what they mean by them.
Luckily, nobody here needs your permission to do anything.
I can’t imagine, after reading your comments here, why so many people think that feminists are authoritarian by nature. Not only does it show through in the opinions that you state, it is glaringly obvious by the language you use to express them.
I posted a reply to her, basically both groups need to separate themselves from the misandrists n misogynists, and we shouldn’t ignore male issues especially when we expect men to champion women’s issues.
^ Yup!
“Archie, I have some sympathy for the gender-neutral approach, but I really have no time for the ‘envelopment is rape’ argument. Really? Nonsense. Men who suffer abuse need support too, but don’t conflate the issues that men and women face, either qualitatively or quantitatively. It’s disingenuous, and counter-productive to any progress in this debate.” “There are many forms of abuse. Rape is generally accepted as being penetrated. In my opinion the harm caused by penetration is greater in many ways than other forms, and is used in different ways. You may wish to label ‘envelopment’ as rape. I think this… Read more »
I can’t help but notice how the thought on why men don’t feel comfortable with feminists goes straight to how they are too immature, how they ignore stats, how they have uninformed opinions, etc…
In short the only reason men don’t feel welcome among feminists NEVER has anything to do with feminists themselves….
“Some” men don’t feel welcome among feminists, please. In a long, long life among the man-haters, I’ve never felt the slightest bit uncomfortable or unwelcome.
You should feel free to own your own experience, but please don’t tell me what mine is.
Fair enough. I should have worded that to the effect of “men who don’t feel welcome among feminists….”.
But thank goodness that you asked me to quantify rather than just sweeping in and telling me what my experience is.
so All I hear from this article is that men’s rights are being denied. that men have problems but can’t voice them. The whole article and a majority of the comments I’ve read focus of rights and priveledge (or lack thereof) etc. but no specifics. I’ve heard plenty about feminism, about women fighting for their right to pursue and education, to work, to vote, aka actual SPECIFIC greviences. And I’ve heard about men wanting rights and priveledges.. that’s all. apparently its up to the individual what these rights are? If there was some grand injustice happening to men I would… Read more »
“41% of college enrollers are men, NOT Because of their lack of rights, but because of their CHOICE of how they want to pursue their life. not because their right to education was taken from them or made harder for them to pursue.” Women are paid less than men, NOT because of their lack of rights, but because of their CHOICE of how they want to pursue their career. Not because their right to a career was taken from them or made harder for them to pursue. I’m curious if you believe what I have typed above. It follows the… Read more »
At the same time women’s enrollment in universities surpassed men’s, the value of those degrees decreased.
After a rainstorm, worms appear.
This just in: Rainstorms create worms.
Please provide proof that the the devaluation of the college degree is a result *specifically* of women attaining them.
The far more likely cause is one of simple economics. The more common something is, the less value it has. If you have Five candidates for a particular job and they all have a Master’s degree, those degrees essentially become worthless because they do nothing to set one candidate above the others
I actually wasn’t trying to point to any historical trend of occupations or accolades losing their status as they become dominated by women (like nursing or cooking or teaching), I was just pointing out the 58% enrollment of women in universities might not be as advantageous as people seem to think it is. I think you’ll find that men still dominate the sciences and the higher paying vocational training courses.
@Lil bit Lookup Selective Service and the funding issues there. ht tp://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/female-teachers-accused-of-giving-boys-lower-marks-6943928.html – Also read this. There is debate ongoing about the crisis against boys in education, where the crisis in girls was and still is being addressed the boys still need help AS WELL. Other injustices would be the lack of support for male victims of rape and domestic abuse, the very gendered view of those issues which portray a male perpetrator and female victim whilst we have stats showing both genders are significant in number of perps and victims. One that affects me is the current climate of… Read more »
And I’ve heard about men wanting rights and priveledges.. that’s all So men want the privilege to: Raise the child they helped bring into this world. To be able to do something as simple as apply to college without having to sign a possible IOU to the military. To not be presumed guilty of a crime just because of their gender. To be able to be around children without being presumed to be a threat. To want effort put into why we live on an average of about 5 years less than women (and no the gap is not entirely… Read more »
There is no doubt that there are some pretty important issues men face that get shoved under the rug for the sake of preserving an ideology that favors ‘masculinity’ over ‘femininity’. And I would submit that same ideology is responsible for the pressure that drives men to high rates of suicide. A quick generalization, though- Men’s Rights groups don’t have the best analyses of how power and privilege actually translates into the real world, and tend to confuse ‘oppression’ with ‘pressure to maintain privilege’. When an individual might suffer from being forced into the male box, with all its accompanying… Read more »
Neither men nor women are ‘privileged’, we all just have privileges. You need to move beyond your notion that somehow my privileges are more evil than yours, and as such, only mine really need to be addressed. That is an extremely self-serving position to take, and you should probably take your own advice when it comes to the way people try to maintain their own privileges – that kind of thing isn’t exactly unique to men. And in general, I dismiss the notion that, in our society, genitalia is what makes you ‘privileged’ in the way that you mean (The… Read more »
p.p.s. I like the word obnoxious a little too much, and that’s obnoxious. My apologies for not editing. Please fix this script!!!
To the original author of this piece: I checked out your site and found it to be pretty reasonable. I was also intrigued by some of the blogs you linked to (minus Girl Writes What, whose style I find to be obnoxious – but I’m not a feminist, and I find many people obnoxious). I was wondering where the reasonable men’s activists were (more on that later). Have you checked out Marty Nemko yet? That’s another good blog to add to your blogroll. While I find him ineffective as a career coach (his refusal to take me on as a… Read more »
Great comment, thank-you!
You’re an awesome contributor. I hope to read more of your articles in the future. You display a writing style and a way of sharing stories that allow many people to relate to you.
Thank-you, I try my best to over-explain stuff to reach a broader audience. A lot of people need just a small change in tone to be understood, especially people that are angry but have a legitimate complaint (happens a lot in mra vs feminist debates)
Birdie-El
Roissy, Roosh and The Spearhead aren’t mra sites. The first two are pua and the Spearhead is a trad con site.
I wish movements like feminism and MRA could become more unified. Nobody should be excluded. The feminist movement I’ve been a part of has always included men, but undoubtedly the movement is majority female and mainly female-focused. There’s a need for a men’s rights movement, but demonizing feminism is a mistake. That being said, I don’t entirely agree with this article. The most egregious error being male v. female lifespans. It is a factor of biology. 😐 It is observable. You can’t just say, “No, it is this” with nothing to back it up. There are plenty of examples you… Read more »
“That being said, I don’t entirely agree with this article. The most egregious error being male v. female lifespans. It is a factor of biology. It is observable. You can’t just say, “No, it is this” with nothing to back it up. There are plenty of examples you can use of anti-male sentiment (like child custody) that aren’t factually incorrect.” Forgive me for not having the source handy (Hopefully I can find it later, or someone who has it with them can post it), but there is logic behind this argument. Basically, it goes like this: With the advancement in… Read more »
Jezzy: Please, PLEASE don’t harp on feminists, especially male feminists. I mean since us women aren’t always seen as 100% human, male feminists can be a great asset. They won’t be much of an asset if they are chirping the same messages as the not quite human women (as you put it) feminists. With a lot of us the problem isn’t that you’re women its what you’re saying. And no, men are not the “othered” sex from what I’ve seen. Who says there is one single “the” othered sex? There are ways in which both men and women are othered… Read more »
@PDA
“Who can “put out” my suffering, hate and pride if not me?”
I’ll let Gautama Buddha answer that:
“Better than a thousand useless words, is one useful word, hearing which one attains peace.”
— The Dhammapada, Siddhārtha Gautama (tr. Gil Fronsdal)
A fellow traveler ? The quote you choice brings us full circle. Last Dhammapada quote, don’t want to turn this into a Buddhist thing:
If we never share the way, how will they know? And I’ve always preferred Thomas Byrom’s translation, but that’s just me.