Maria Pawlowska argues that all, including men, are victims of patriarchy.
One of the most exciting things about social media is the interaction with readers that the comments section provides. It allows the reader to become a writer as well, and the writer to become a reader, furnishing a dialogue. And—there’s no two ways about it—not everybody is going to like what you write, and that that’s OK. It probably means you’re doing something right? You can’t please everyone (I mean, not even J.K. Rowling pulled that off). But I get anxious when I get the impression that I must have seriously miscommunicated something because, according to the comments, some readers appear to draw the exact opposite conclusions from what I intended.
Enter the topic for this post: it seems that patriarchy bashing is still interpreted by some to be man-bashing. Such a correlation is actually pretty scary, so I thought I’d go ahead and write a post on why the two are actually opposites.
If I were to sum it up in one sentence, why when I criticize patriarchy I’m not criticizing men, I would say that men themselves are victims of patriarchy and I’m not victim-blamer. Fortunately, there’s more space to elaborate on this.
First of all, let’s get our definitions straight. Patriarchy is a social system in which males assume the role of primary authority figures central to social organization. Moreover, in a patriarchal system men hold authority over women, children, and property. Male rule and privilege, as well as female subordination, are implicit.
Patriarchy is a system that men, as well as women, are part of. It’s a system perpetrated by both sexes. (If you hold any doubt, read Katie Riophe’s latest in The New York Times.) Criticizing the system is not equivalent to attacking all those who are a part of it. The problem with criticizing patriarchal values is that too many have come to believe they are “natural.” If someone thinks men really are somehow biologically predestined to be the heads of families and states, then questioning that may appear to be a direct attack on the essence of being a man.
And this whole “rule over women” deal may actually sound kind of neat if you lean to the far right and have a pinch of authoritarian tendencies, right? It’s not all nice and dandy, though—a patriarchal system brings with it a host of limitations to men as well as women. The latter are obviously the more constrained gender. They are supposed to listen to their husbands and fathers in everything and follow their lead. They aren’t allowed their own ambitions (save the “Best Housewife of the Year Award” and a first prize ribbon at the bake fair). They aren’t allowed free lives. Fifty years ago Betty Freidan told us the story of how damaging institutionalized patriarchal values really are to women. This really shouldn’t be news to anyone—women are not a monolith of creatures that want only to have babies and husbands. They should be granted the possibilities to strive for personal achievement just the way men are. But if patriarchy had its way this would never happen.
There’s more to it, though, and in The Feminine Mystique Freidan also touched on how men were hurt by the system. In a patriarchal system a man’s wife is his dependent in every sense of the word—she’s not his best friend, not a partner, not a companion that shares life’s ups and downs. She’s a helpless creature that needs to be sheltered, taken care of and who can’t really make conversation about anything other than diapers and PTA meetings. The full responsibility for anything that isn’t cooking, cleaning, or childcare related rests on the man of the house and there’s no one to share the responsibility with.
There’s also no one to talk to about the stress and worries. Patriarchy 101: Women are emotional, they worry, cry, and are generally “sissies.” Men are strong, brave, clear-headed, and, well, for lack of a better word, “manly.” Moreover, men aren’t really allowed to show too much interest in their children and definitely cannot display “excessive” affection. A pat on the back and handshake after a victorious Little League game will do. In a patriarchal system all men are literally the kings of their castles, and we all know that kings aren’t allowed to do anything that isn’t in the protocol (or they shouldn’t anyway).
In more general societal terms patriarchy strips the public life of females and everything they bring to the table. And I’m not talking about the empathetic, care-giving, etc. values, which are still mischaracterized as distinctly “feminine.” I’m talking about the real stuff—individuals and their skills.
I was at a meeting once with Bill Gates in which he was asked about his thoughts on international development. He had a simple answer (and I paraphrase): “The key is gender equality—you need all the smart people you can get and no one can afford leaving half of their population behind.” Last time I looked no one was calling Gates a men-hating feminazi. And whatever your opinion on Windows, I really think he nailed this one. Patriarchy isn’t just a deeply flawed system because it prevents women from achieving their best and stifles men in very strict gender roles. In fact, it holds back whole societies. Ultimately, it makes all of our lives more difficult and, yes, deserves a good bashing!
—Photo ellyjonez/Flickr
The logic behind this patriarchy bullshit is all over the place and just plain stupid. Lets talk about some things here. It is an absolute myth that men are more violent and abusive than women. One of my best friends was rapped and sodomized so badly as a child he had to have surgery to be able to walk and years of therapy to learn that having his mother shove things up his ass and pimp him out to sickos was not parental affection. Yes it was his mother that did that. I personally was also rapped by a woman… Read more »
Seemed like an interesting topic so I linked to it from Google. But feminist/politically inclined posters decided to destroy it, which unfortunately is par for the course when attempts at rationally discussing issues relating to men are made.
I doubt I will return to this site again
O it worked so well in the black ghetto and Soviet Union…Let’s do it again and again and again!!!!
Wow, reading those comments was like picking through the smoldering remains of some kind of horrific stalingrad in the gender wars. Thank god its only the internet. @Maria Pawlowska I’m very glad that you’re willing to recognise male, aswell as female, victimhood. Its a very importants step towards a true gender equality movement. Despite this, I still take real umbrage with patriarchy theory: Firstly, by insinuating that men are at the head and top of everything within traditional gender roles it denies female power and privilege. Its very important that female power and male powerlessness are understood in order to… Read more »
Oh no, Interestingly, I perused a few threads of that ballbuster webpage you displayed as proof patriarchy still exists in full steam. It wasn’t long before I found a post in which the author posted an article displaying this ecard: http://ballbuster4ever.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/plzbeabettermanhater.png The caption of the e-card reads: “you make me want to be a better man-hater” The author’s comments under the linked card read: “Of course I had to sift through a bunch of “not a man hater!” graphics to find this lovely pic. Because god knows, hating men is soooo wrooooong!” If you think you can come from your… Read more »
Here is a link to the actual article:
http://ballbuster4ever.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/on-hate/#more-973
I think there’s actually some real wisdom to be gleaned from the “oh, no…” messages. Here’s what I have generalized from her specific points about men: 1. Some people claim to be victims who really aren’t. Yes. 2. Just because some claims victimhood doesn’t mean the reader is obligated to believe and express a particular feeling. True. 3. Some people may exaggerate their victimhood in pursuit of individual goals. Yep. 4. Just because a person feels victimized doesn’t mean the person really is a victim. Agreed. 5. Some people may unjustly hold an entire gender responsible for their lives, to… Read more »
Not bad, not bad…. [devilish smile]
No, Eric, you have not been respectful. You have been extremely condescending, dismissive, and snotty. I don’t know what statements you claim I falsely attributed to you, and I am not going to waste my time looking for them. I have work to do. I doesn’t disturb me that you claim your life is “not a wreck.” (Naturally, you condescendingly imply here that my life is a wreck.) I don’t know what you have done. I only know what you claim to do. I am glad you are happy. I pointed out previously that I have encountered a number of… Read more »
“No, Eric, you have not been respectful. You have been extremely condescending, dismissive, and snotty.” Snotty? That is the first time I have heard any called “snotty” since middle school. LOL! “I don’t know what statements you claim I falsely attributed to you, and I am not going to waste my time looking for them.” Actually, it was Michelle, when you and she were tag-teaming attacking me. “Naturally, you condescendingly imply here that my life is a wreck.” YOU are the one who continues to cite your long list of victimhood, how the District Attorney, the police, and their “female… Read more »
There’s another reason to bash patriarchy not men: men aren’t the only ones supporting patriarchal values. Women can also be complicit in patriarchy. In fact, they can be some of the most dedicated agents.
That is very true, wellokaythen. Some women are really brutal about going after other women – out of jealousy, competition, whatever.
If discussion about gender is a contest to see who has the worst life, I will happily stand aside and let other people win. If winning the competition means being the biggest victim, I hope I come in last place. This is why much of the critique about privilege fails to move me in the direction I guess I’m supposed to go. I suppose I’m supposed to feel guilty. Mostly I feel sympathetic and fortunate. The more I hear about all the apparent privileges I have, the more fortunate I feel. Thank goodness I wasn’t born ____ or ____ or… Read more »
Establishing superior victimhood isn’t just about ego tripping (although that is certainly part of it). Its often performed to justify extreme measures to restore said victims to “equality” and to resist measures that might impinge on their privileges.
Personally I think its a massive red herring, but gender debates are always probably going to focus on it.
I know it’s not very constructive to speculate about anyone’s motivations, especially since it’s so hard to prove the motivation. So, I’ll just say what my impression is, right or wrong, and ask if anyone else was thinking the same thing: The “Oh, no…” messages sound like a caricature of a type of feminist argument, like something invented to discredit the anti-patriarchy thread of feminism. If so, it’s brilliantly entertaining. I don’t know if this makes me cynical to think that someone would be so sneaky, or if it makes me naïve because I can’t believe anyone would sincerely be… Read more »
I admit, I had the same thought.
Honestly, I’ve started wondering the same. If that’s the case, I’ll admit it is a terribly dishonest tactic. On the other hand, it did elicit some very interesting comments. It’s hard to know. On the other hand I have seen things work the other way around. On the thread about Feminism and Fathers, finding a common ground there was a feminist reader who talked to talk of equality (even getting comments from the author that she seemed like a good advocate), but as with most things hardcore feminists say, when you play “reverse the genders” she was revealed as not… Read more »
That is ridiculous – and you accuse me of being paranoid? I am not a feminist. I am a person who happens to be a woman. I am a person who prefers solitude. I am a person who hates being harassed. I am a person who has been raped and stalked. Most of the men attacking me on this forum seem to deny my experience. Why? You can’t handle the fact that in this day and age men still rape and stalk and harass? I have not made up any of the facts I have related here, nor am I… Read more »
Not being paranoid, just speculating. I can understand your preferring solitude, hating being harassed, and being raped and stalked. I just have a very hard time understanding how so many men could be harassing and stalking you to the extremes you describe. We’ve all, as women, had experiences of being stalked, harassed and feeling threatened by men – sometimes often enough for it to be scary or at least extremely annoying – but in most cases it’s still a pretty small subset of men. I’ve had many more experiences of feeling genuinely cared about by men. You make it sound… Read more »
LF – I had no clue that so many men were involved in this stalking and harassment until I filed for a restraining order against the rapist, who I had thought was just a sociopath operating on his own nuttiness. When I got my TRO against the guy, he filed for a restraining order against me (which was refused), alleging that I had falsely accused all sorts of men of sexual misconduct, and that I was bragging to every man in sight that I was some sort of sexy beast with fantastic skills. He named several men, most of whom… Read more »
Well I’m sorry you’ve had this experience if it’s real… but since you’re apparently aware that your experience has been unusual, it’s hardly very fair to get on a website such as this one and spew a lot of bile at “men” in general, is it? Some of us are trying to have conversations where we can reach genuine understanding, and projecting what is admittedly an outlying experience onto men as a whole isn’t going to get that done. I can understand that you’re angry and stressed, and there are some men here who are equally bitter and obviously venting… Read more »
It is real. And excuse me for being impatient with the majority of the men posting here, who clearly are here solely for the purpose of bashing women and reinforcing negative sexual stereotypes. I am not hostile towards all men. Most of my friends, in fact, are men. They simply are not part of the jerk sub-population of men.
Usually i’m very sceptic about the stories when someone accuses his/her community with a conspiracy against him/her. Something is fishy here.
I don’t say you’re lying, and believe you lived your experiences as you described. But… is that the reality? Are the majority of the people in your life (especially the men!) are evil? I’m sure they would tell another story. Or… is there any possibility that you are also doing something wrong?
i don’t know, just asking questions.
Anyway, i wish you better days and positive changes in your life.
Well, Hermit, I would not have believed it myself, and probably would never have known about the involvement of the other men, but for having obtained the restraining order. That unleashed the rapist’s filing and his revelation of the participation of the other men in a campaign to defame and attack me. I have the emails between the rapist and a certain police sergeant – the rapist attached them to his papers. I also have the police report the rapist filed in an attempt to phony up a claim that I was harassing him. He attached a long statement to… Read more »
Oh, no – I have been nothing but respectful to you. Whereas, you have repeatedly called me names, personally insulted me, and personally insulted my wife, lyingly claimed that I wrote things that I did not, and then argued based on those lies. When I challenged you to post the quotes of what you claimed I said, of course, you disappeared from those discussions. I’m sorry that it disturbs you that my life is not a wreck, that I have never abused my wife or any other woman, man, or child, that I am happily married. I’m sorry that it… Read more »
The gridlock in this thread is like the gridlock of the Super Committee is like the gridlock in Congress. This is going nowhere, and I am stunned by the amount of time being put into it. The MRA’s and the feminists will no more come to consensus on this issue than the dems and the GOP can come to consensus on any issue. I wish that were not true, and admire the effort being put into this thread, but it is obvious after over 300 comments going on for days, we are at total impasse. I suggest everyone give up… Read more »
I made my comment about the awesome power of patriarchy because I wanted to express, in an awkward way, how having an extreme view of patriarchy can actually backfire. If patriarchy has “destroyed” generation after generation, and men keep on getting away with all these horrible things century after century, it sounds pretty invulnerable to me. The worse it sounds, the more universal it looks, the less confidence I have in fighting it. If there’s never been any progress against it at all, then it’s hard to imagine any progress in the future. I’m left with a hypothetical, another one… Read more »
I think you’re taking a pretty extreme interpretation here. I don’t think anyone is saying there hasn’t been progress – only that the journey isn’t completely over yet, despite some people’s wish to declare that it is. I wouldn’t choose to be a man if I could (although there are plenty of documented cases of women who would, parents who want sons and not daughters, black people who try to look more white, etc.), but that doesn’t mean there’s nothing about being a woman that angers or saddens me and that I’d like to see changed. I’m sure that as… Read more »
“The thing that disturbs me is that so many of these discussions seem to turn into a “who is the bigger victim” contest.” I admit that I have done that. Did it just a minute ago. It has become a defense mechanism. It gets really old to hear constantly how horrible you are because of being male, how we are rapists, abusers, the devil incarnate – and how wonderful women and girls are in comparison. The concept is to become better men, not get beat down and insulted constantly. I mean, if you happen to not be a rapist, oppressor,… Read more »
In response to a question about where his wife might be while he is constantly on the internet, Eric says: “We’re usually together but doing different things. She shops way more than I do.”
Of course she does.
Since you have no answers and no valid points to make, you continue to stoop to personal attacks and insults. Now you’ve moved on to attacking my wife.
So, since his wife enjoys shopping, you’re implying she’s not a liberated female and just a slave to her husband. Believe it or not, some women like to shop. Some men do too. Who are you to say whats appropriate for that woman to do? A true feminist wouldn’t attack the lifestyle a woman chooses even if it doesn’t coincide with your personal likes and ideals.
Hermit- Why don’t you just get a vasectomy? If you really wanted to have control over whether or not you become a parent, it’s the most logical step to take.
i love my children, and they were planned. But again, we’re discussing ideas, why attack me personally?
I didn’t attack you personally. I asked a question. Why shouldn’t men take control over their own lives?
That’s a terrible thing to say. Would you say to a woman, “Why don’t you just get a tubaligation? If you really wanted to have control over whether or not you become a parent, it’s the most logical step to take.”
If not, it’s not only terrible, it’s sexist.
If he really wanted to have control over whether he became a father or not, he would take that control into his own hands and get a vasectomy. Women get their tubes tied all the time and yes, I have asked women if they are going to do that or stay on birth control and what kind are they using.. etc. Getting tubes tied is a much more costly and invasive procedure than a man getting snipped. You make it sound like it’s the end of the world. My grandpa had one because he didn’t want to have any more… Read more »
Valerie,
You’re only looking at one instance for men (when they’re done having kids). What about young men who want to control whether they become parents for right now, but have children later.
Surgery shouldn’t be the only option. 30% of women surveyed in a woman’s mag said they would lie about contraception to have a baby even if the man had expressed he didn’t want to become a father.
That’s a lot of self-centered lying women, if the % remains valid for women at large.
Then men should get vasectomies if they think so many women are going to lie about it. Why put that choice in someone else’s hands when you have the power to control your own future. Vasectomies are fully reversible and affordable. Why not control your own life?
Velerie, to get a vasectomy does not change the laws suddenly unbiased, so that’s not the point. (In case you really want to know, i ‘ve always loved children, so the thought never came up) Biased laws are a human rights issue, like it or not. Oh yes, and it has nothing to do with me personally. More about my childrens future, what i feel responsible for.
Feminist groups are against DNA testing at birth…. i wonder why. So even vasectomy not always enough. There are horrible and disguisting cases out there.
Ok, fine, Hermit, have it your way. Don’t get a vasectomy and tell other men not to do it either. You can have control over your future but you choose not to. Nothing more I can say.
Where the hell do you get all these statistics? 😀 Seriously. What “women’s magazine”?
lol, read the’ Is there such thing as female privilege’ on the eden fantasy website. so you feel choked up cause you can’t sleep in a bed with another guy and you think its female privilege that they can. No its not, its homophobia! And the horror of circumcision. OMG! I was circumcised!!!! Funny, I don’t remember anything. I have had at least two orgasms a day for 38 years ( i am 50) , never had ED, VD, urinary tract infection, HPV nor do I have dick cheese). My wife lifes it that way and If moma ain’t happy,… Read more »
MarkP, this is terrible. There are two sides, and castigating males (or females) in a gender war is not the answer, pal any more than castigating blacks or Latinos is. Kicking someone when they’re down is wrong. Give a hand or leg up is the right thing to do. I have only daughters but am concerned about the horrific plight of young men. The 70/30 gender education gap is going to, and has already started to come home to roost our society. Radical gender imbalances are bad for everyone.
Okay, Eric. Since you are so concerned about gender imbalances, let’s make Congress half female, and half of the judge positions female, and half of the CEOs of the Fortune 500 female, etc.
“Since you are so concerned about gender imbalances, let’s make Congress half female, and half of the judge positions female, and half of the CEOs of the Fortune 500 female, etc.”
You forgot the homlesses somehow. And the coal miners. etc.
Cool with me. That could happen if they chose to be 50% of the candidates.
Women politicians are no more or less incompetent than their male counterparts..
Football is a game ( not real life) that is based on size and muscle mass. No one questions that men, with testosterone, will be bigger and stronger than women. Just like you,will not have a baby, not due to discrimination but to biology. Women just want to walk the streets at night without some drunken jerk hitting on them, to have a job interview and not have the guy staring at her breasts, not to be excluded because ‘they are emotional, and not to be talked to like they are a child. They want their role as the bearers… Read more »
“Football is a game ( not real life) that is based on size and muscle mass. No one questions that men, with testosterone, will be bigger and stronger than women. Just like you,will not have a baby, not due to discrimination but to biology.” That’s very obviously not true, since the claim was made that women were relegated to the lingerie football league, as if they were prevented from competing to play in the NFL. So, you should argue with those to brought that up. Mark, men and women are discriminate against in different ways. It’s not as if only… Read more »
sorry bud, got you by three years of marriage and both me and my wife understand divorce is a reality ( what would you do if your wife does leave you- not let her?) Not in touch with reality. I work with the social determinants of health every day. Are you telling me that black male is subserviant to a black or white female?? You should got to the hood and ask the guys hanging around selling drugs and hookers if they feel like women control them -they are the ones heading to prison and an early death. the day… Read more »
I married a woman who agrees with me that marriage is permanent. We believe in working through problems together. That is our shared philosophy. __________________ I’m not “telling you” anything that is not factual. I am informing you that white women were never legally bought and sold as slaves, never lynched, literally killed with impunity because they weren’t considered full human beings with rights, skinned, dragged behind speeding cars, never stereotyped as lazy and shiftless, rapists, ignorant, genetically inferior, and part ape. I’m informing you of the fact that black men suffer more violence and murder than white women… Read more »
no patriarchy? here is an excerpt from the online Globe and Mail on Sunday( my ipad won’t let me copy and past the whole thing) this is the best paper in Canada and all people in power read it. JAMES CHRISTIE From Saturday’s Globe and Mail Friday, November 18, 2011 6:03PM CST After the long fight to get into the Olympic boxing ring next summer, women are still battling – not to be seen as sex objects. Boxing’s governing body, the AIBA (an acronym for the International Boxing Association), will decide at a meeting of its technical and rules committees… Read more »
Hey, at least here in the US, girls can play football! They have their own special league, the LFL!! And it’s very special! Have you heard of it, neighbor to the north? No? Well it stands for Lingerie Football League. Let your imagination run wild. Yes, that’s it, you’ve got it! And it has just been decided that there will be a junior league version of this for pre-teens. So what do women have to complain about??!! We are all taken seriously and treated equally to men. Don’t know what the fuss is all about in this thread. If the… Read more »
LOL – you are pretty sharp for a woman 😉
That’s not true. Women can become professional football players in the NFL. They can compete for a roster spot just like men can.
The NFL is not a men’s only league. The patriarchy (if it were so pervasive would prevent them from competing alongside men but there is no such restriction.
It’s money. It’s marketing. It’s trying to figure out how to get the most viewers. No one is forced to be part of that organization.
Are wedding dresses on women rather than tuxedos due to patriarchy?
Wedding dresses are not SEXUALIZING. They are not DEMEANING. Come on, you know the difference!
I don’t know about that. If a white wedding dress represents Virginity, then it does become a defacto sexual uniform?
Profit in Buisness leades to Survivability. The same holds true for certain value judgments Like earning potential and fertility.
Survivability is King!
So, a skirt is demeaning but a dress isn’t? According to whom?
I can’t stay out of the abortion debate, like a moth to a light just so you know my foundation for learning is science (Geology) with a minor in philosophy and political science, though environmental assessment, MCSE and human resources and now linguistics and astrophysics are the learning dejour. I think I made up this analogy- I have told it to friends since the early eighties. Scientists spot a mother eagle pushing her eggs out of the nest. what do they do? shoot the mother eagle? try catching the eggs or (this is the coorect answer) try to figure out… Read more »
god I wish the ipad had spell check!
What do you think of Ayn Rand? Personally i think she solves many of the social paradymes of gender relations.
Yipes! I hope not. Ayn Rand was one sick puppy.
Why so? She seemed to be at worst a high functioning sociopath if anything. If you understand her then you probable understand most women.
Geesh I don’t even know where to start. I won’t even comment on the “If you understand her then you probabl(y) understand most women.” What? Anyhow… sociopath is a good start, in describing her. Empathy is simply absent from her worldview, as are children. But it’s pretty obvious also (both from reading her books and reading about her personal life) that her relationships with men were pretty screwed up. On one hand, she seemed to love hero worship of men – she would create impossibly “heroic” female characters who secretly desired to be sexually dominated by even more impossibly heroic… Read more »
I leaned from her that love is earned, not given in charity. I admired Her honesty about who she chooses to deal with and why, I love The emphasis she placed on life as the ultimate value, I love Her stance on self defense. Through her I learned to respect the fact that women NEED productivity and Survivability more then all their prostrations of love and jingoistic clichés of listening to your “Heart”. Ayn Rand put in black & white what she wanted in a man and in her life and she didn’t beat around the bush about it either.… Read more »
Actually her “axioms” don’t occur very often in real life at all, and that is exactly why they’re so bankrupt. This isn’t to say I disagree with her on everything. But if you think that what Ayn Rand wants is “what women need” then you are sorely mistaken. Ayn Rand was ONE woman and her “needs” were quite different from most. On the other hand she was also all too human, and tried to deny her real needs whenever possible because they conflicted with the philosophy she espoused publicly. I do agree with her about choosing who you deal with,… Read more »
“Ayn Rand was ONE woman and her “needs” were quite different from most. ” I disagree, when it comes to human relations there always seems to be an exchange of either financial stability for sexual experiences or the sheer narcissistic ascetic validation for Physical Protection. In other words people use each other all the time. They exchange similar values with likeminded partners. Rand teaches that you shouldn’t sacrifice your values for something of no value. Blessed are those who share similar goals for companionship. I know Ms. Rand fell from her own ideal. I hold no assertion that Rand was anything other… Read more »
Of *course* no one should sacrifice their values for something of no value. That goes without saying and I agree there are some people who really need to learn that lesson. But to say that the only way to achieve this is through Randian philosophy is… well… crazy. To reduce human relationships to simplistic “exchanges of value for value” or “using” people, equating compassion or empathy with pity, these are all traits of psychopathic people. And yes, individuals are responsible for their own happiness, but the sole architects? No, they are not. We depend on each other and on our… Read more »
Oh, no…you have display hate throughout this post, due to your mental illness. Please seek treatment, not blogs.
You remind me of those ADHD teenage trolls who creep into blogs and distract others from the real issues.
Mental illness is not a joke. Rape jokes are not funny either. Only children would use these terms in derogatory fashion to harass others.
Do you know where there is a lot of mental illness? In Patriarchy. Look at all the rapists and criminals in prison – they are all examples of Patriarchal mental illness; they have taken things that aren’t theirs and must pay for it now.
Shut up, jerk. You are nothing more than a bludgeon.
Ha! My favorite philosopher is a Women who loves logic and reason
So raspberries ta you….
And by the way YOU ARE NOT FOOLING ANY ONE WITH THE ALMOST SEXUAL PASSION YOU SEEM TO HAVE FOR GIVING MEN ON THIS BLOG GREIF!
I BET YOU’RE BREATHING THROUGH YOUR NOSE RIGHT NOW….ARN’T CHA?
Those are the very same reasons that there should be post-conception reproductive choice for males and females. Literally, the exact same list of reasons applies to males. I hope you are actually pro-choice, not just pro-abortion (i.e. choice regardless of gender)
You live in the US.I live in Hungary, where the childrens health care is automatically free for everyone. But my post was not about that. ” yes indeed there are biases against men in terms of custody battles though I suppose I can see the reasons in the genesis of those poliices.” Injustice is injustice, you can not cherry pick, at least if you’re a humanist. “Until that point, don’t get anyone pregnant. Wear a condom, make sure she’s on BC, don’t stick the baby maker into the baby maker, avoid the problem I guess.” I think it’s a little… Read more »
I am sorry that many of you women have ended up either dating or being surrounded by the very same guys who are writing in this blog. So many guys missed the title of the blog and think the are being bashed. Patriarchy in muslim world is absolute and is also in the Christian world as well. That is institutionalised patriarchy. We who don’t believe in some dude in the sky, can see the consequences of it, but unfortunately so many children have been brainwashed and we are suffering the consequences of it. It is only when the majority of… Read more »
So, you want to take away Christmas and other holidays, not just for yourself but for everyone else too? There are a number of things that I personally disagreee with and would never do but I also respect the right of other people to engage in them, even if I think it’s stupid, immoral, or even personally destructive. It’s their life and right to do whatever they please to and for themselves. Secondly, you seem to have customized this term called patriarchy and attached it to everything you personally dislike about the world. That’s certainly economical because you don’t actually… Read more »
“But if you are having sex with a woman and YOU are not ensuring that she is protected by some form of birth control, then you are in the wrong, and if a pregnancy results, you are on the hook to support that child.” Life is not so simple. If YOU decide to keep the baby, then YOU should take the responsibilities alone. It’s a big mistake from my part to try to build any emotional contact with that child, because if YOU decide -at any moment- to break that contact by not letting me see my child, not fucking… Read more »
I agree with you Hermit, to a point. If we lived in say Sweden? Or a country where the child’s health care was assured, where childcare was easily accessible (leaving plenty of room for me to earn an income) then sure. you don’t want the child….go away. I don’t want the child and you do? Here you go! We don’t live like that. We live badly here in America in many ways, not the least of which is we are litigious as hell, yes indeed there are biases against men in terms of custody battles though I suppose I can… Read more »
Amen, Julie. It is shocking how most divorcing couples get into using their children as weapons in their own dramas. My ex-husband and his family tried to start that with me, and I immediately moved to stop it. I assured my son that I would never prevent him from seeing his father, and I assured him that he could spend as much time as he wanted with his father, and that I could amuse myself when he was away with Dad. We never had a visitation order because it was not necessary – our son went back and forth between… Read more »
Oh No says: “Amen, Julie. It is shocking how most divorcing couples get into using their children as weapons in their own dramas.” It is quite clearly the case that this is widespread. It is also quite clearly the case that it is overwhelmingly mothers who are #1 most likely to use kids as pawns and #2 most likely to win at this practice (thanks to the toadies in family courts who are mothers bullies by proxy). Mothers win sole physical custody about 13 times as often as fathers (80% versus 6%). Women initiate divorce 70% of the time and… Read more »
“Life is not so simple. If YOU decide to keep the baby, then YOU should take the responsibilities alone. It’s a big mistake from my part to try to build any emotional contact with that child, because if YOU decide -at any moment- to break that contact by not letting me see my child, not fucking SWAT units will come to enforce my rights. Patriarchy at work. My point is, that your rights are not automatically superior over my rights JUST because you’re happen to be a mother, and i’m a father. If they are, i’m a secondary citizen.” Actually,… Read more »
Either you (the universal “you”) are pro-choice or anti-choice. To deny a human of either sex post-conception reproductive choice is anti-choice. That is simple.
Oh No says: “Actually, life IS that simple. You take precautions or you unleash forces beyond your control.” Oh no. I’m old enough to remember a time when women got a very raw deal on trying to collect their child support. The large scale garnishing of wages had not arrived. The employment database was not as sophisticated as it now is. All an unethical man had to do to avoid paying child support was to jump states, change jobs or work under the table. Your solution for men is little different than the misogynistic men who told the single mother… Read more »
John D – I didn’t tell Hermit to keep it in his pants. I told him to be sure to use birth control, not leave it up to his hope that the woman is using it (which was always the case when I was younger – the man just assumed I was taking care of it.) What a bunch of words you wasted chiding me for something I never said.
Oh no says: “John D – I didn’t tell Hermit to keep it in his pants. I told him to be sure to use birth control, not leave it up to his hope that the woman is using it” Truly a distinction without a difference. “Accidental” births or truly accidental births will happen (condoms are only 99% effective). The problem isn’t biology, but LAW in which the man is held to be additionally responsible for any births that ensue despite it being a 100% female choice. (When there was a problem for women getting support the LAW was changed. But… Read more »
If you were paying attention instead of constantly being in attack mode, you would see that I agree with you that women should not be allowed to trick men into impregnating them and then demand money from the men. But when you start mouthing nonsense like “women have choices, men have responsibilities,” you lose all credibility. Why don’t you take your enormous energy and put it towards stopping rape? Until men stop raping women, don’t talk to me about women having “choices” and men having “responsibilities.”
Oh no,
“If you were paying attention instead of constantly being in attack mode”
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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah giggle snort teehee, chuckle Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ohmygod Icantbreathe!
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“Since the woman risks her health and her very life when she has a child, she should determine when or if she has a child.”
And men risk their future. It requires two person to have make a baby. If you take one’s rights, then take the responsibilities also. End of story.
It is funny how you accuse men here not being empathetic…
Hermit, you just introduced another factor that was not being discussed previously, and you treat it as a trap and yet another opportunity to attack me. Yes, a man risks his future when he fathers a child. It seems your objection to female autonomy in terms of reproduction is in a woman getting pregnant without the father’s consent and then keeping the child instead of aborting it, thus forcing a financial responsibility on the father. Is this correct? If the woman deliberately gets pregnant by fooling a man into believing that she is on some form of birth control, thus… Read more »
At this point men have ample access to condoms and should require proof of women’s birth control. That’s easy enough to do. There is also oral, manual and anal sex which don’t lead to pregnancy.
Julie, I think you are a little naive.
Are you aware that the epidemic of HPV is being spread through oral and anal sex? Just watch – over the next ten years or so there will be a huge uptick in the number of oral and anal cancers in this country due to HPV.
P.S. – condoms don’t protect against HPV.
Not naive at all, Oh No. I’m well aware of the stats. However we were discussing birth control and pregnancy, not STDs, which was what Hermit seemed so concerned about.
As for STDs.
Get the shots, pick your partners carefully, get tested.
There is no test for HPV in men. Doctors won’t test women for HPV unless a pap smear indicates abnormal cells. Many people who have no symptoms are carrying HPV and infecting other people unknowingly.
I am too old to get a shot for HPV. I have chosen abstinence.
“Physical autonomy-I get to plan my pregnancies” If you want to give men some reproduction rights (instead of the old cliche “keep it in your pants”), it’s okay . We have nearly none at the moment. “Equity/Equality-My LGBT friends can get married if they want, adopt if they want, etc.” As someone who was raised by two lesbians, i can’t support this. Some things are just not equal. Everything else what you want is supportable, but utopistic. Oh yeah… one more thing. Do you know how the topic or article is called what don’t generate any heated arguments? Dead. Debate… Read more »
And what would men’s “reproductive rights” look like, Hermit? I’d like to hear that one. Does it involve forcing women to have babies?
When i can have a say about do i want a child or not. At the moment, it is the mother who decides alone. Her body, her choice, is it familiar?
Hermit, that is exactly how it should be. Since the woman risks her health and her very life when she has a child, she should determine when or if she has a child. If you want a child and the woman in your life does not, then your solution is to break up with that partner and find a woman who wants a child with you. End of story. When men have the ability to become pregnant, then we can talk about your rights in that regard.
I don’t think he’s suggesting that men should dictate abortion; rather that both men and women should be able to choose, post-conception, whether they wish to become parents or not. Women have that choice via abortion. The point is about giving women the option to not be forced by a man to become a mother, and giving men the option to not be forced by a woman to become a father.
So how would that work, as you envision it? Do you mean that if a woman gets pregnant and she chooses to bear the child, but the man does not want to become a father, that he should not have to assume any responsibility for the child? Man… talk about an issue I can see both sides of. Because I agree, in an ideal world that should be the case… but of course that opens such a huge can of worms as far as unscrupulous men abandoning their families. Should anybody be able to just absolve themselves of parental responsibility… Read more »
Both parties would be required to decide prior to birth, perhaps before week 20, or even better, week 16. If he opted out, she would still have time to seek an abortion if she didn’t want to be a single parent.
I see. Not a bad idea. I do think it’s very unfair for a woman to have the choice to have a baby that the man does not want, and then expect him to still be responsible for the child, especially since in the reverse situation (the man wants to keep the child and the woman doesn’t), there’s no way the man could win, other than by pleading with her to bear the child and let him raise it. Also, what about in the case of married couples? Say a couple already has all the children they want/can afford and… Read more »
Sadly, the same rules could apply but would require that they get divorced . That’s pretty sad and extreme but the only viable solution that I have ever heard of.
But, if a couple marries well, they shouldn’t ever face that choice.
We’re usually together but doing different things. She shops way more than I do.
LF Says: “So how would that work, as you envision it? Do you mean that if a woman gets pregnant and she chooses to bear the child” A couple of years back there was a movement to try and establish the right of men to get a paper abortion when a woman had a child (from casual sex or a casual relationship) that the man did not want. This would terminate his parental rights and his financial responsibility. Strangely, Karen Decrow who was president of NOW from 70 to 72 stated women should not be able to “force” men into… Read more »
Well like I said John, I think it’s a good idea – I agree with Ms. DuCrow. The only problem I’d have with it is this: if the man signs something saying that he wants nothing to do with his child, is that ironclad? He can’t change his mind later? Because the problem there is… unlike if there’s an abortion, if the woman chooses to have the child, the child may want to know who his/her father is when they get older. The man might conceivably, by that time, be OK with having a relationship with his child, and for… Read more »
I’m not a lawyer and this is hypothetical. My guess is that the contract would be ironclad until the child turns 18. Once the child turns 18 neither the government nor the mother have any legal right to control the associations of the child or the father. If the situation comes up where both the child and the father want the father to assume some kind of parental role then I would say that the mother’s approval would be necessary as up until that point she is the child’s sole guardian (I do not think this decision should be shared… Read more »
That all sounds good to me. I’d vote for it!
In my fantasy? Neither would be forced into anything because everyone would be locked up on birth conrtrol until such time as both want a child. I sure wish that there were some kind of birth control that was safe yet temporary that both men and women could take. Or a reversible form for both men and women. I realize that’s a fantasy. If we lived in a society with many more social support structures, let’s say, perhaps something a bit more socialist, I’d probably be damn fine with the father waiving his rights. If I got knocked up, and… Read more »
Hermit says: “When i can have a say about do i want a child or not. At the moment, it is the mother who decides alone. Her body, her choice, is it familiar?” Oh, no….. responds: “Hermit, that is exactly how it should be.” Oh, no. Are you familiar with the saying “whoever picks the tune pays the piper?” If women have 100% total control over whether a child is issued from a coupling, then they should shoulder 100% of the responsibilities. If a man CHOOSES to contribute (and how much) to the child that issues from a casual relationship… Read more »
1) what rights do you want hermit? I can’t force you to impregnate me, you can’t force me to carry your child. Wear condoms and make sure she’s on the pill if you don’t want a custody issues. 2) So you were raised by two women. Why does that mean that they shouldn’t get married? Because you had a bad experience that’s a totaltiy and a universal truth for others? Sorry, don’t think so. 3) Heated arguments are fine with me, and frankly hermit I’m not gonna ask people not be jerks to each other, but some of the comments… Read more »
So, Lori. I see the anger and frustration men are posting here. I also see the anger and frustration some of the female posters are placing on the boards here on this post. Remember how I have complained I don’t like drive by comments filled with snark and aggression? I don’t like it from the women either. I don’t see it solving any problems at all, only enflaming argument and reinforcing anger and bile on each side. It makes me sad, because i’m sure there are reasoned arguments and nuanced discussions to be had on the topic. But what winds… Read more »
Well, Julie, I am happy for you that you are not as burdened by men as I am. I don’t think the problems can be solved when men like Eric and the other Men’s Rights advocates posting here exist. They are not here to learn anything, they are here to bash. I see no possibility for “healing.” My way of dealing with these issues is to stay at home most of the time so that men cannot get access to me (unless they are engaged in telephone hangup call campaigns, to which I have been subjected by many men, including… Read more »
Oh No, I’m not burdened. I have a husband and two male children, loads of male friends and colleagues. While yes, I’ve experienced a few moments of man on women weirdness in my life, I’ve had a relatively lovely time working, living and playing with men. Most of my female friends have had good relationships with men. I don’t live in a world where I experience men “patroling the world” or subjecting me or my friends to predation. I obviously don’t know the details of your experiences. Your comments make it sound like you’ve never had a nice interaction with… Read more »
Yeah, what Julie said. I don’t deny your experience, but it is not my experience.
Julie, I don’t paint all men with the same brush. I have had some lovely relationships with men, but for the most part I have been subjected to predation. Your being married protects you against predation to a certain extent, since most men won’t bother a woman who is the property of another man. When I was with my last boyfriend, certain types of predators left me alone (not the strangers who would harass me on the street when I was walking alone), but the neighborhood predators closed in again after that relationship ended. I will not marry for protection.… Read more »
“so I MUST be crazy.”
– Anyone who has read your posts here would come to the same conclusion. Please seek mental treatment.
Luckey, I am sure that baiting women is one of your favorite sports. Could you do it somewhere else?
One of the difficulties of speaking up for ourselves or advocating and sharing our experiences is that there’s this assumption on the other side, that we all must have had bad experiences with men, and the pity party comes marching in – this make it harder for our stories to be heard and taken seriously. We have had both good and bad experiences/relationships with men like most women, but that’s not where we need to see change – get it? And no we love men, contrary to what others may believe. People need to hear the depth, breadth and passion… Read more »
Well said. Don’t you know that all men are infected to some degree with ‘answeritis’ We can’t stand to be wrong or not have the last word.
most of these guys are blowing smoke and will have the same equal passion for which sports team rocks and sucks.
I still agree that patriarchy exists not as a plot but as a symptom ofma failed economic and social structure.
It only benefits some men in some circumstances and some women do benefit from it in some cases.
MichelleG says: “We have had both good and bad experiences/relationships with men like most women, but that’s not where we need to see change – get it? And no we love men, contrary to what others may believe. People need to hear the depth, breadth and passion our stories tell! It is obvious that these stories burden you as oh no has pointed out.” Michelle. To flip the record over (ahem–showing my age there lol). I have seen on the threads regarding dating where a lot of young men voicing their pain because they are kind respectful men who get… Read more »
“We have had both good and bad experiences/relationships with men like most women, but that’s not where we need to see change – get it? And no we love men, contrary to what others may believe” What I meant to say is that, dating and relationships isn’t the topic at hand, on this thread/ article – hence I said, “that’s not where we need to see change – get it?”. I wanted to refocus the topic, and not have it be about pity and personal relationships with men or lack thereof. That’s all. And about nice guys getting passed over,… Read more »
Hi Michelle, I’m happy for you and your SO. I wish you the best. I know my point was off-topic. My point was that while the message that a statistically significant portion of men may be harming women in real ways and that this will be painful for good men to hear (of which I would count most of the male posters here) and these messages from women shouldn’t be dismissed, then men should expect the same. So far, what I have seen is not a male problem of refusing to listen, but a human one. Good people tend to… Read more »
John D wrote: “I have seen on the threads regarding dating where a lot of young men voicing their pain because they are kind respectful men who get passed over by women who overwhelmingly choose jerks.” the problem here is that your answer assumes that women’s choices are somehow the kind, respectful guy’s business. If a woman chooses a man Nice Guy considers a jerk, so what? No woman owes any man a relationship. We are not products being withheld from Nice Guy’s use. I am often surprised at how out of touch men are, and how much of a… Read more »
Oh No, You’ve made it completely known that you have no sympathy for men, so there is really no point discussing this with you. My conversation was with Michelle. I was simply pointing out that if women expect men to give an objective sympathetic ear to women’s problems, then men deserve an objective the same from women. Currently, I have seen way way less sympathy to men’s issues on these boards from (some feminist-leaning) women, then I have seen when women voice their issues from men on this board. Your statement is just another notch in my belt as far… Read more »
Well said, Michelle. The responses from most of the guys here are purely reflexive. Mark is a refreshing exception.
Oh, no: “I don’t think the problems can be solved when men like Eric and the other Men’s Rights advocates posting here exist.” Oh, no – I am not a Men’s Rights Activist or a feminist. I don’t subscribe to any divisive ideologies, where gender prejudice is tolerated, which both of those tend to be. I’m not directing that to any individual, rather the movements. Secondly, you have told a lie about me, claiming that I bash women. Feel free to bash me but don’t lie about what I have said. Either admit that to be a lie or quote… Read more »
Oh No says: “I see no possibility for “healing.” My way of dealing with these issues is to stay at home most of the time so that men cannot get access to me (unless they are engaged in telephone hangup call campaigns, to which I have been subjected by many men, including a superior court judge).” Just out of curiosity, how could you possibly know it was the judge? Oh No, I have two things to mention about your plight. A) self-fulfilling prophecy. I remember waiting in a cafeteria line in which this (mid to late 60’s) white woman did… Read more »
John D – You ask: “Just out of curiosity, how could you possibly know it was the judge?” I know it was the judge because he was also calling and hanging up on a federal judge who was working with me to get the superior court judge removed from the bench for sexually assaulting me and many other women. He stopped calling the federal judge around the same time he stopped calling me — which was when he was removed from the bench. I see you are practiced at blaming the victim by the way you call my difficulties a… Read more »
Paranoia and delusional behavior. Seek treatment.
MichelleG, mocking the seriousness of mental illness is irresponsible of you. Oh, no needs treatment. Your remarks are irrelevant.
BANG. BANG. BANG.
That is the sound of Luckey’s head banging against a wall.
Look in the mirror. This thread is being overtaken by ADHD trolls.
You’re irrelevant.
OH no.
I got a long winded comment eaten.
I’ll try to respond later today.
Lots of heated conversation happening. Whether we destroy a patriarchy, kyriarchy, or matriarchy….whether we call it humanism, feminism, or not an ism at all, here are some of the things I want including the responsibiliites that come with them….. Physical autonomy-I get to plan my pregnancies, preventing them (and thus preventing abortions whenever possible) by using legal safe birth control with my partner. I get to have consensual sex. Equity/Equality-My LGBT friends can get married if they want, adopt if they want, etc. I get reasonable pay for the work I do. I get access to education. I want all… Read more »
Julie, BEST post in the thread. Thank you for distilling so much anger and fighting down to some basic principles that seem imminently fair and reasonable. If anyone has a problem with any of them, THEY are the ones with the problem. Women get to control their uteruses (uteri?) and marriage equality are perhaps the “easiest,” as they are legislative. The others require work–and that should happen. Can’t wait to see if anyone finds a problem with your list and why. I think it is brilliant.