It’s Okay to Want Sex

For Harris O’Malley, being willing to admit that he was interested in sex – and understanding that yes, women liked it as much as he did – made his relationships more authentic, and sex more collaborative.

Originally appeared at Paging Dr. NerdLove

I like sex.

I realize that this is the sort of declaration that ranks right up there in obviousness as “Hey, the sun rises in the east!” and “water’s a bit wet, i’nit?” but stick with me here, I have a point I’m getting to.

I’ve been reading Clarisse Thorne’s “Confessions of a Pickup Artist Chaser” lately and it’s been a thought-provoking read. Beyond being a fascinating and surprisingly even-handed look at PUA culture and techniques, it also has a lot of cross-over with sex positivity. Some of the attitudes expressed by members of the PUA community she interviews reminded of some of the ways I looked at the world not that long ago, especially with regards to sex and sexuality.

When I was younger and less experienced – back in the bad old days – I liked sex but didn’t really know much about it. Less of a case of not understanding the mechanics or only routine in my repertoire being “writing letters with my tongue” but about human sexuality. I had absorbed a lot of misinformation about sex and sexuality from the culture I grew up in, especially as a white, hetero, cisgendered male. As far as I knew, sex was something of a transaction: guys bargained, cajoled, argued, convinced, begged or otherwise persuaded women into performing some sex act – ideally some penis-in-vagina action – and women would give in. Sometimes reluctantly, sometimes with enthusiasm but rarely without some form of negotiation. The fact that men wanted sex was something of an inconvenience at best, something actually shameful at worst. Being called a pervert – if, say, you were caught watching Porky’s, Embrace of the Vampire or the Phoebe Cates scene from Fast Times at Ridgemont High – was among the worst things you could label a guy.

After losing my virginity, I was – I shit you not – shocked when my girlfriend was interested in having sex again… like, the very next day. Without my having to put on a production or anything! Oh, what brave new world that had such people in it!

Still, even after being introduced to a world where women actually -gasp- enjoyed sex, I still clung to the belief that men were the horny ones and women had to be persuaded – which is to say, turned on or seduced – into wanting sex in equal measure. This colored a lot of my interactions with women, especially with how I was going about trying to convince them to go out on a date (and then, ideally, come home) with me. I wasn’t seeing sex – or romance, for that matter – in terms of “here’s a fun thing we can both enjoy”, I was seeing it as “what do I have to do to get you to sleep with me.” It was an adversarial process – one encouraged by society at large – and one that simultaneously demonized and praised male sexuality while insisting that female sexuality was less important, if it existed at all.

I wasn’t seeing sex – or romance, for that matter – in terms of “here’s a fun thing we can both enjoy”, I was seeing it as “what do I have to do to get you to sleep with me.” It was an adversarial process…

Dating was a ritualized kabuki dance; while we both knew that sex was a possibility, I had to take care to not express any overt interest in it lest I look like a pervert who Only Wanted One Thing. I had to display enough value in order to make it worth her time to give me the opportunity to try to persuade her into sleeping with me. It was exhausting and it meant that I wasn’t treating her as a person but as a vault whose combination I had to learn in order to get inside.

And from talking to my friends… I was decidedly not the only one who felt that way. We all felt the annoyance that we had to pretend that we didn’t want what we so obviously did and the frustration that women just didn’t know what it was like for guys. Men and women were just too different.

It took quite a bit of effort to break out of the antagonistic view of sex and realize that a) women were sexual beings too and b) it was ok to want sex. The problem wasn’t the interest, the problem was the way that we were all taught to go about getting it.

 

THE PARADOX OF MALE SEXUALITY

The way our culture defines male sexuality is problematic to say the least. We’re constantly beset with conflicting messages about just how a man is supposed to be, sexually. Male sexuality is equally something to be scoffed at, ashamed of and celebrated… as long as you don’t deviate from the accepted norm.

On the one hand, male sexuality is portrayed as one of constant horniness. Men are supposed to get rock-hard erections at the merest hint of stimulus (such as, say, a stiff breeze…) and ready to go at the drop of a bra – we don’t need no silly “foreplay” or anything so silly as “setting the mood”. One common joke: “How do excite your man? Show up.” The other joke-but-not-really is that men are so horny and oversexed that they’d fuck spongecake if it was warm enough.

Or an apple pie, for that matter.
Photo courtesy of Shutterstock.

For a man, according to the common message, sex is the alpha and omega of our lives. If you’re not interested in sex, you are not a man. We will do almost anything in the name of getting laid – travelling across the country on the hint that we might have sex (The Sure Thing, Euro Trip, Sex Drive), subject ourselves to any number of indignities (The Last American Virgin), lie about who we are (Wedding Crashers) or what we do (ditto) or make any number of promises we may or may not have intend to keep (Paradise By The Dashboard Light). Sex is a part of everything we do as men.

Come on, rockets look like that because WE WANT TO FUCK SPACE!
Photo courtesy of Shutterstock.

Men are expected to want to fuck as many women ((I mention women specifically because male sexuality is still predominately defined as heterosexual. Gay men are also frequently seen – and portrayed – as wildly promiscuous, but this is frequently held against them.)) as possible; restricting oneself to just a single woman is jokingly referred to being “tied down”. Any number of people will happily provide any number of reasons and explanations – ranging from evolutionary psychology to the effects of testosterone – as to why men should not be expected to be monogamous and should instead be free to spread their seed as far and wide as possible. Sleeping with as large a number of women as possible is something to be celebrated – certain celebrities (Wilt Chamberlain, Gene Simmons, Hugh Hefner, Warren Beatty) are known for their level of promiscuity as much as for their professional accomplishments. The higher the number… well, the more manly you are.

Of course, this glory only fits within specific standards. It doesn’t count if you’re sleeping with women who fall outside the conventional definition of beauty1. If your desires fall outside of the accepted stereotype – most commonly young and busty with a narrow waist and long tapered legs – well there’s something wrong with you. If you are attracted to, say, heavy women or older women… well, that’s fodder for comedy right there because real men aren’t into that.

And if you’re a virgin more than a few months past puberty… well shit son, something must be wrong with you, because a man is not a virgin! Men get laid.

…Male sexuality is commonly portrayed as awkward, buffoonish or barely restrained animal instinct. In film, television and comics, sex makes people stupid.

At the same time, however, male sexuality is also seen as a joke or even something to be ashamed of. Ignoring more extreme ends of the spectrum such as Andrea Dworkin’s Intercourse, male sexuality is commonly portrayed as awkward, buffoonish or barely restrained animal instinct. In film, television and comics, sex makes people stupid. The womanizer characters are often also either the moron or the man-child. Men can’t hold a conversation with a woman without attempting to look down her shirt, can barely spit out two sentences to a woman who he finds attractive without making a Freudian reference to her breasts, vagina or having sex. The man who has lots of sex partners is shown to have something wrong with him, emotionally and needs a Good Woman to heal him and teach him the wonders of monogamy. Women were disturbed, even disgusted by any noticeable expression of sexual interest whether verbal or physical (inopportune erections, anyone) and yet the man simply can’t help himself.

Being told simultaneously that you were supposed to be a stud and that women found sex icky does notmake for a well-balanced view of sex growing up.

Not, mind you, that women have it any easier.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN “WOMEN LIKE SEX TOO”??

You wouldn’t think it, but the idea that women are sexual beings, with wants, lusts and needs just like men, can be a difficult concept to wrap one’s head around. We live in a society where we are taught that men and women are diametrically opposed by their very nature; men want sex, women want love. Men are logical, women are emotional, etc.

On it’s face you would think that this would be self-evident, but growing up I – and damn near everybody else – were implicitly taught that women were not sexual the way that men were. Men might crave sex but women… women, we are taught, tolerate it. Since the Victorian era, it has been axiomatic that “real” women were chaste and endured sex because it was her womanly duty. Hell, until the late 19th and early 20th centuries, women liking, even wanting sex was considered to be a symptom of hysteria. Even with the Free Love era of the 60s and the Sexual Revolution of the 70s, female sexuality was still defined by a man’s needs first and foremost.

These days, women are subject to the same paradoxical treatment of sexuality that men are. Women are supposed to enjoy sex, but almost as a performance for men. They’re taught to walk a thin line: “be sexy… but in this very specific way.” Fashion and trends in clothing encourage a very particular body type and to decorate it and display it in pre-approved manners. Express your sexuality, but only in these particular ways. Fit yourself into this very narrow mold and you will be rewarded by men But for all that our culture says women are supposed to be sexy, they’re not supposed to be sexual. To be sexual is to like sex a little too much. Liking it too much means you’re giving it away too easily and we all know the label afforded to women who give up the goods too early or to readily…

Even now, the woman who craves sex, has more than one partner at a time or is interested in non-procreative sex (anal sex, fetishes or kink) is frequently shown in pop culture to be in equal turns untrustworthy, damaged or a figure to be laughed at.

And of course, there’s still that persistant voice in western culture that insists that sex is dirty and shameful and should only be shared with someone you love in the bonds of holy matrimony.

Considering the tightrope that society demands they walk, it’s small wonder that many women have a hard time coming to terms with their own sexuality. Even in this day and age, it’s still incredibly common for women to not know what makes them orgasm until their 20s or even 30s.

This schizoid view of female sexuality – that women should like sex, but only in specific ways following particular models – contributes to the fucked-upedness of our sex-negative culture and the antagonistic way that we see sexual relations. It’s one thing to be able to acknowledge, intellectually, that yes, women were sexual beings just like men were, that women liked sex, even wanted sex the same way that men did. It’s another to be able to internalize it.

THE COMMODITY MARKET OF SEX

For me, 20+ years of conditioning was hard to shake off. I had bought into the commercial, antagonistic view of sexuality and it colored the way I approached women and sexual relationships.

The way that western culture approaches sex – even in this enlightened age, with vibrators for sale in your local Walgreens and where sex-tapes make people instant celebrities overnight – is to treat it as a commodity. Sex as goods. Women have it, men want it and the market sets the price. It’s a zero-sum game – the more a woman gives away, the less she’s worth, therefore she needs to hold sex in reserve in order to get the best price for it.

Like this, only with vaginas
Photo courtesy of Shutterstock.

Women -so the cultural model goes – are expected to hold out to get as much as they can: financial security, romance, relationships, marriage and children. If they sell their goods – sex – too cheaply, too quickly or too often to too many people, the laws of supply and demand define her as being “devalued”; i.e. a slut.

Men, on the other hand, are expected to get as much as they possibly can for as low of an investment as possible. A man who pays too much for too little – someone who can’t “seal the deal” quickly or who don’t get sufficient levels of sex (either from one partner or many) in exchange for a relationship” – is seen as less of a man. A “pussy” even, because what could be more insulting for a man than to be compared to female genitalia?

Even the Nice Guys fall into the commodity frame of sex; they view sex (or, more euphemistically, a “relationship”) as something that is rightfully theirs as long as they collect enough Nice Guy tokens. Once they have enough, they can redeem their tokens in exchange for the sex that they’ve been working towards.

The commodification of sexuality is an inherently antagonistic system that treats men and women as fundamentally different and sets them in opposition – the “Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus” model if you will. The idea that sex is a matter of winning and losing even permeates our language. When men have sex they “get some”, or “get lucky” or “seal the deal.” Women “give it up” or “give it away” or “surrender to him”. We talk about the “thrill of the chase”. Pickup artists refer to meeting and seducing as “The Game” – with it’s inherent implication that there is a winner and a loser and the loser is the one who gives in.

In addition, it by it’s very nature stipulates that sex is only valued due to it’s scarcity – which in turn means that a woman is only worth as much as the sex she doesn’t have. A woman in this model who “gives it up” too easily or too freely or too often is seen as worth less. Men are taught that a woman who is easily seduced is not a “high-value asset”; after all, if she gave it up her precious commodity so easily once, how many othertimes has she handed it out? At the same time, there is an expiration date; the goods are worth more the newer it is. Past a certain point… well, it’s hardly worth anything, now is it?

The commodity market model also doesn’t allow for anything other than a value-for-value exchange. It by it’s nature dismisses anything that falls outside of this frame. A woman who enjoys sex for it’s own sake are treated as shameful sluts and are worth less than “pristine” virgins. A man who might be monogamous by nature or might want greater levels of intimacy before sex is seen as a freak.

SEX AS COLLABORATION

When I was starting to make my transformation, I wasn’t consciously thinking about the transaction frame that defined sex for me at the time; I was thinking about concepts that the PUA community would dub “Demonstrations of Higher Value”  – evidence that would convince women that I was “worthy” of being given sex… because it wasn’t like there were that many women who just liked sex for it’s own sake, right?

Changing the ways that I thought about sex took a lot of work. The first step – accepting that women liked sex too – was the hardest; I still had literal decades of cultural indoctrination to overcome. Part of what helped was a female friend of mine handing me a copy of My Secret Garden by Nancy Friday, which compiled various women’s fantasies as an overview of female sexuality. From there it was a matter of education and a willingness to question a lot of what I thought I knew. I did a lot of reading about human sexuality and a lotof discussions with my partners… not just about what I did that convinced them to go to bed with me, but about how they felt about sex and how and when their attitudes developed or changed.

And it helped. A lot.

There’s an excellent essay by Thomas MacAullay Millar called “Toward a Performance Model of Sex” that sums up the idea of a collaborative model of sex brilliantly, using the metaphor of musical performance:

The commodity model assumes that when a woman has sex, she loses something of value. If she engages in too much sex, she will be left with nothing of value. It further assumes that sex earlier in her history is more valuable than sex later…. But a musician’s first halting notes at age thirteen in the basement are not something of particular value. Only an obsessive completist would want a recording of a young musician’s practice before she knew what she was doing… She gets better by learning, by playing a lot, by playing with different people that are better than she is. She reaches the height of her powers in the prime of her life, as an experienced musician, confident in her style and conversant in her material. Her experience and proven talent are precisely why she is valued.

Because it centers on collaboration, a performance model better fits the conventional feminist wisdom that consent is not the absence of “no,” but affirmative participation. Who picks up a guitar and jams with a bassist who just stands there? Who dances with a partner who is just standing and staring? In the absence of affirmative participation, there is no collaboration.

Like the commodity model the performance model implies a negotiation, but not an unequal or adversarial one… Musicians have to choose, explicitly or implicitly, what they are going to play: genre, song, key and interpretation. The palette available to them is their entire skill set… Two musicians steeped in delta blues will produce very different music from one musician with a love for soul and funk and another with roots in hip-hop or 80s hardcore. This process involves communication of likes and dislikes and preferences, not a series of proposals that meet with acceptance or rejection.

Not feeling that every sexual encounter was a negotiation made things more comfortable. I was able to relax and be my best self instead of putting on what we both inherently knew was a performance. I stopped looking at sex as a competition – what do I have to do to get you to sleep with me – and more of a collaboration.

“But you have to admit, the negotiations were pretty damn hot.”
Photo courtesy of Shutterstock.

Being willing to admit that I was interested in sex – and understanding that yes, women liked it as much as I did – made things go smoother. It was more honest – this is who I am, this is what I’m interested in, this is what I have to offer – than trying to pretend otherwise. It made it easier to make the negotiation of sex that communication of likes and dislikes that Millar talks about rather than a process of “this is what I am willing to offer, how much will this get me?” It meant that there were fewer miscommunications; I wasn’t indicating that maybe, maybe I’d be interested in a relationship when I really wasn’t.

Accepting that you’re allowed to have the desires you do (or don’t) have and being willing to be honest about them allows you to be more authentically yourself… and in doing so, relate to the people you want in a more honest, open and collaborative way.

 

Feature photo—Man head silhouette by Shutterstock

About Harris O'Malley

Harris O'Malley provides geek dating advice at his blog Paging Dr. NerdLove, as well as writing the occasional guest review for Spill.com and appearing on the podcast The League of Extremely Ordinary Gentlemen. He can be found dispensing snark and advice on Facebook and Twitter (@DrNerdLove.)

Dr. NerdLove is not really a doctor.

Comments

  1. The Wet One says:

    It is truly a bizarre concept that women have “sex” and grant access to it. Neither men nor women can have sex without the other. Don’t believe me, read the lamentations of women in sexless marriages. That will really blow your understanding of male and female sexuality. I shared your view of men wanting sex and women wanting love (or some such partial nonsense). I’ve since learned that this is not quite true. No, not at all.

    It’s really bizarre to think that women own sex and portion it out to men. Men, in fact, own sex just as much as women do. They are just so much more willing to give it away. Thus, economic analysis enters into it.

    Anyways…

    Here’s to not saying “Women have it, men want it and the market sets the price.” While this is true in a sense, it’s fundamentally wrong (except in true market situations which exist everywhere and have from time immemorial).

    • So basically, men are more likely to engage n casual sex maybe? Women tend to want a relationship more?

      • Archy,
        I think that would be a fair assessment.
        And I bet the husbands who aren’t having sex with their wives do want sex, just not with the wife. It goes back to the “I need variety and casual sex” thing.

        I believe that on the whole men are just more into sex than women. They have higher sex drives and just get more out of it. With a couple of minutes of bumpin ‘n’ grindin somethings gonna happen for the man but not necessarily for the woman.

        • I think it’s far more complex than simply “And I bet the husbands who aren’t having sex with their wives do want sex, just not with the wife. “. Some will want variety, some will have issues making them uninterested in sex (depression for instance can do that).

          “I believe that on the whole men are just more into sex than women. They have higher sex drives and just get more out of it. With a couple of minutes of bumpin ‘n’ grindin somethings gonna happen for the man but not necessarily for the woman.”
          Could be, everything I’ve ever seen suggests men on average want more sex, more often, and women are actually more likely to ration it out. Whether that is mostly biological, or how we’re raised, maybe it’s just a mix of both?

          • “With a couple of minutes of bumpin ‘n’ grindin somethings gonna happen for the man but not necessarily for the woman.”

            Depends on with what man, the attraction, and the compatibility. I’m sleeping with a man who knows my body inside and out, and it didn’t take him long to learn. He can make me orgasm in under 5 minutes manually, and his record is 10 times in a row, one after the other. Not that I don’t value sex with other men or haven’t been patient as we’ve learned each others’ bodies (as I assume they’ve been with me). I guess that’s sexual compatibility and chemistry (he has prior experience, but not a crazy amount…he’s a huge nerd and more of a romantic than a player)? I have no problem having sex with him every day given the chance. In fact, I love it. I don’t think that I have a lower sex drive than he does. I have no interest in “rationing it out.” I’d be annoyed and frustrated if I had to.

            • I think you made Alice’s point when you wrote “depends” on the man.

            • IDBY:
              Exactly.

              The whole post proved my point.

            • I was just responding to that one certain part and the idea of ‘rationing it out.’ It’s not that I said I’d pass up crappy sex if I was horny. Even with a great partner, sometimes the sex is crappy…sometimes you just need to get it in.

              When I did deny a partner sex on a regular basis, I was getting it elsewhere (always honestly) or masturbating a lot (several times a day) because I was in a place where I craved variety and excitement, and sometimes my hand and a fantasy was easier. And I agree with what Archy said about it not being as simple as what you said. Some men and women do deal with depression, injury, physical issues, or illness. There were a few times I wasn’t interested in sex, and I was dealing hormonal issues (bad birth control and weight loss due to the influences of making some extra cash, nothing too huge or anything, in the modeling industry).

            • The one certain part was about women not being able to orgasm quickly, which isn’t necessarily true in all situations, particularly with a man who loves to give you manual or oral stimulation. Also, keep in mind, good sex isn’t always just about the orgasm. I can give myself an orgasm. I can’t give myself good sex. Some of the best sex I’ve had didn’t involve an orgasm.

            • good sex isn’t always just about the orgasm”

              I’ve noticed it’s mostly women who say this. Hmmm….
              What I’ve noticed with women that its often a handful of lovers that would do it for them. With men, most mildly attractive woman of child bearing age with mild knowledge of male anatomy will probably do it for them.

              I was just gonna say that sometime men will go to porn, prostitutes or whatever. They want sex just not with the spouse. Hes just not depressed enough to stop having sex.

            • @Alice

              You are refreshingly honest, observant and funny!

            • I have a FWB who has NEVER came when we had sex. Last time we had sex we were at it all day and did it until we were both sore. He didn’t cum once.
              We’ve spoken about it and he said that he can control it for hours. That I turn him on. I will add that we weren’t using a condom that day (both been STI tested recently and didn’t have any). Birth control!

              Actually, once when we had sex he did cum but that was because I was asking him to. I thought it was strange that he didn’t cum. We were using a condom that day. Now i’ve accepted that he still enjoys it and he LOVES getting me to orgasm.

              whether he’d describe it as the best sex he’s ever had I’m not sure….hey hoe….

              I’ve also had another couple of instances where guys haven’t cum.

            • I know right.
              Her man can get her off in 5 minutes flat and so she then brags it wouldn’t bother her to have sex daily. Wouldn’t bother???? Seems like she would be trying to get some twice a day during the week and thrice a day on the weekends. Who drives 20 on the autobahn???

            • You’re totally twisting my words due to possibly awkward phrasing. *rolls eyes* And I just wanted to point out that sex isn’t about transaction or rationing. It’s a beautiful (and sometimes not so beautiful), fun (and sometimes not so fun) thing SHARED between two (or more) human beings who ideally respect each other, even if there isn’t love or a relationship involved. Both parties should consent and enjoy.

            • And yes, I do get it at least twice a day.

            • Too late.

            • Word twisties again! :)

            • Then you must be:

              1) unemployed
              2) a sex worker
              3) a student
              4) lying.

              Which is it?

            • Mic Check says:

              Hmmmm

            • I’m a student (graduate), so you’re right that I fit into one of those. :) I do understand that things will probably change as life gets more complicated. I think it’s reasonable that if you’re working full time (plus possible overtime) and raising a kid that the amount of sex will go down. If you’re working all of the time and shaping the lives of other human beings who are completely dependent on you..of course you won’t be having as much sex. Duh. I don’t think that’s a reason to get angry at your wife. Many are probably trying their best. You just try and work around it the best you can. Make time, keep it SPICY–it’s on both of the partners to do their best to maintain a healthy sex life (whatever that means for them). For me, it’s a little easier now, plus I and my partner can get off pretty quickly if we want, and I enjoy sex even without an orgasm–so it’s easier to squeeze a quickie in. Plus, I get terrible migraines, so sex and orgasms are a form of therapy. The endorphin rush and even just the semen ease the pain.

    • No it’s not really a bizarre concept when one considers the gender difference in “sex”. Men on average are much less discriminating, much faster about deciding, and more often interested in “sex”. Using the word “sex” buries this key difference.

      “Football” to Americans is the Superbowl. “Football” to the rest of the globe is the World Cup.

  2. What happened to the original photo? It was perfect for the WHAT DO YOU MEAN “WOMEN LIKE SEX TOO”?? sub-heading.

  3. PursuitAce says:

    I don’t know why it’s taken so long for me to figure out why these articles never apply to me. These are alpha male problems…hello…now I can ignore them without feeling guilty somehow.

    • QuantumInc says:

      This is a people who have sex at all problem, not a “alpha male” problem. The book mentioned in the second paragraph talks about the whole Alpha/Beta/Omega male ideology and why it’s wrong. Certainly the guys who can go out to a bar and come back with a woman have superior social skills and confidence, at least in that setting. But most of them has been practicing that particular set of social skills for years, picking up chicks is their hobby.

      I suppose that with my perpetual virginity these problems at best affect my long term goals. Really for me, and I’m guessing you, self esteem issues are probably a much larger block to ever actually having sex. Seeing oneself as a “Omega Male” though, seems that it would make things just that much worse. Really, the Alpha/Beta/Omega male thing is unrealistic when dealing with 90% of women. They still expect a modicum of self respect true, but that’s not the same thing as being an “Alpha Male”.

      • wellokaythen says:

        I wouldn’t say that picking up a woman in a bar displays “superior social skills,” necessarily. It requires some bare minimum of social ability, though many women have at one time or another gone home with someone who, looking back on it, was not exactly all that conversational. Many a woman, looking back on her life, can say, “what was I thinking? He couldn’t even string a sentence together….”

        If a man goes home with a woman he just met in a bar, then he’s gone home with someone who’s willing to go home with someone she just met in a bar. I don’t mean that in any judgmental way. It doesn’t make her “slutty” or “easy” any more than it does the man. I’m just saying that it’s not all that miraculous an “achievement.” It’s a man going to a bar and allowing himself to be mutually picked up by a woman willing to have sex with such a man. It’s doing something with someone who wants to do the same thing to you – not all that great a skill.

  4. “The woman who craves sex, who has more than one partner at a time….is untrustworthy, damaged….”

    Yes, so true…it is a double standard….men in my life have bragged openly about the number of partners they have had or their past escapades…but if there was any the slightest hint on my part (even a look or a casual conversation with another male, even if it all just friendly and platonic) would result in jealous tirades or recriminating remarks….I guess the most vulnerable part of a man is his jealousy ….if you even turn your head in a different direction, he feels slighted and his ego assaulted…

    • If women only screwed guys with short hair and guys only screwed women with long hair we wouldn’t call that a double standard we would call that heterosexuality. Heterosexuality is the correct word in this case too. You don’t get to decide for men what we do or don’t like in women. Many men don’t like women with high partner counts. Respect that.

      • @IDBY, this exactly what @Leia is saying. More often than not, because of double standards, men don’t like women with high partner counts. But generally speaking, men are praised for high partner counts while women face the “Many men don’t like women with high partner counts” sentiment instead of them also being praised for high partner counts.

        In all honesty, one can only respect what another person is looking for in a partner–there’s not much room for debate there, it’s personal preference. At the same time there is a double standard for men and women when it comes to high partner counts, and women tend to get the short end of the stick.

        • Wrong.

          i know exactly what Lela is saying it is not what I am saying. I share her observation not her sentiment about that observation. Her use of the term “double standard” is a vilification of what men find attractive as well as a big pronouncement about supposed fairness and male egos. She is complaining. Men in general prefer their women not to be promiscuous. And????

          • Double standard is actually not a vilification of preference–you’re dodging accountability. A double standard is a different set of principles applied to different people in the same situation. (Men + many sexual partners = The Man, Bro! Women + many sexual partners = Sluuuuuutttttt!)

            She isn’t complaining by simply noting the double standard in the observation. There’s a difference in being promiscuous and having high sexual partners–you’re saying that men don’t generally like either. It’s a double standard because men and women are not held to the same accountability:
            -if men have sex with a lot of women, they are simply exercising their sexual prowress; they’re seen in good light by others–“He’s the man! Look at all the girls he gets!
            -if women do the exact same, they’re seen as promiscuous–“Oh she’s a slut! Ew.”

            The issue the two of us are having is that you’re simplifying it into preference, I’m looking at a broader pattern of double standards. Preference or not, it’s still a double standard. If you take this as vilification then maybe yo

            • No Kaleb,

              “Double standard” is also a political term, not just a descriptive one. We are not talking about wages, voting, or property ownership. We are talking about heterosexual mating.

              As I already said it is men ALONE who determine what characteristics they want in their mates, just as it is women ALONE who determine what characteristics they want in their mate. The belief that these sexual preferences SHOULD AND MUST be the same otherwise some grave infraction has occurred is why the term “double standard” was applied by Lela.

              The original comment has gripe all over it. I’m not the one dodging accountability. I own my words.

            • candidcutie says:

              Your preference another man’s prejudice. Your subjectivity may male/female may prevent you from getting the sex you need/want and if this is case then in what position are “you” to complain about it?

            • Incoherent

          • Let me flip it for a moment IDBY.

            Notice how on the other side of the coin that Leia talks about is how when a woman has few sexual partners she is often regarded as being “a lady” (ie the way a woman is supposed to be) while a man that has few sexual partners is regarded as “a loser” (ie not the way a man is supposed to be).

            The problem with these double standards is that people preferences are being tossed to the way side in favor of some template for what male/female sexuality is “supposed to be”.

            The guy that has a lot of sex partner and the woman that has few sex partners being regarded positively and the guy that has few partners and the woman that has a lot of sex partners being regarded negatively.

            It would be one thing if it were just people doing it on their own personal levels. It would be one thing if a lot of people were doing it on their own personal levels.

            The problem is when those positive and negative regards are taken from a personal level and passed off as the way those groups (in this case genders) are supposed to be.

            • Danny,

              And???
              You are guilty of the bad assumption that all double standards, because they are double standard are implicitly oppressive. If Zuckerberg gave all the men on this site 5,000 dollars and all the women 5,0001 dollars would anyone be up in arms? Why not? It’s a double standard right?

              Now suppose I changed dollars to lashings?? See the difference. The details matter.

              If you have a problem with how women define the term “loser” then so be it. But to argue that it’s sooo bad because it’s double standard is disrespectful of female choice, heterosexuality and also very lazy.

              Lela should be asking herself why it is that men view promiscuous women as untrustworthy and damaged, rather than shaming men into her way of thinking with phrases like “double standard” and “sexist”

              Why do think women use the term loser describe men at all?

              And by the way I’m surprised you didn’t use the word creep or douchebag to make your point about sluts.

            • candidcutie says:

              So baited. OK what’s so bad about promiscuous women?

            • Nothing as far as fucking is concerned.

              I would not have one as my girlfriend or wife. But, how is the average man going to know anyway?

            • Google.

            • Dolores Haze says:

              Yeah, this is exactly the problem.

            • You are guilty of the bad assumption that all double standards, because they are double standard are implicitly oppressive.
              How so when I was only talking about those two double standards. Those two double standards have become oppressive because of how widespread and deeply entrenched they have become.

              If Zuckerberg gave all the men on this site 5,000 dollars and all the women 5,0001 dollars would anyone be up in arms? Why not? It’s a double standard right?
              Is this giving of money a regular practice? Does Zuckerberg have an established history of giving out money like this on a larger scale than on this site? But to call it a double standard there would need to be some reasoning behind it

              With the shaming of women that have a lot of partners and men that don’t and praising of women that have few partner and men that have many the double standard developed from the ideas that women are not supposed to have lots of sex partners and men are supposed to have lots of sex partners.

        • Thank you, Kaleb….the double standard is unfair (my partner was uber controlling!)…. In my particular case, the whole time I was with my first partner I was constantly being monitored and continually accused of having a wandering eye (when in truth, he was the cheating husband)…In fact, he was so paranoid that if I even mentioned a casual conversation that I had with a schoolmate, he made it his mission to bring me to a play that was starring that particular person where he was playing a naked gay man (among 5 other naked gay men!) on stage…! I had felt no attraction to that schoolmate (I just thought he was cool as an upperclassman), but I am still unnerved to this day to the lengths he went to try to obliterate anyone he thought was a rival for my attention, no matter how innocent or casual…so hypocritical!

        • Yes, but they are praised by women too. Just look at how women do not have a problem having sex with a man that is also screwing several other women too. They don’t seem to care about just being another notch so long as they are getting good sex.

    • @leica…

      Here is what is baffling to me. Why don’t women have an issue with men with high partner counts? It actually seems to me that women seek out such men. You do have the right to reject such men.

      • @jules….I speak for myself….and my total partner count is quite paltry….so when I found out each of my partners had already had 6 previous partners (of course, this was after intimacy was established), I was astounded [maybe that number doesn’t seem so incredible to some people here….I dunno]…..I got to know each of my partners for over a year before anything ever happened between us (I did not have the impression either of them were Don Juans or PUA’s trying to put another notch in the belt…that sort of obvious behavior would have been a turn off)….

        Perhaps some of the other ladies here would be so kind as to comment or to answer your question…

        • I do have a problem with a high sexual pruner number. I do have a problem with a disrespectful attitude towards these partners though. I have a number of about 30 and I’m 26.
          I believe that once someone has reached a high level of self understanding, are ready for commitment and have sorted out main emotional issues then they are ready for marriage.
          Sex in a relationship is much better than ‘hook up’ sex, as it just gets better with time as you get into new levels of intimacy.
          I think if someone has been promiscuous or was a player or similar in the past and has moved on and matured and developed then you are meeting them at this new stage not the past stage….isnt that more important? who they are now?

          • bollocks – i meant ‘don’t’ not do.

            apologies

          • “Sex in a relationship is much better than ‘hook up’ sex, as it just gets better with time as you get into new levels of intimacy.”

            I am not so sure. All I can tell you that sex in marriage sucks. Why? Women are going to cut their husbands down to almost zippy. Hence, so long are the relationship is not marriage, I might agree. Otherwise, I will pass. Been there, done that, and it was shitty.

            Most men now know the number one way to kill your sex life is to get married.

            • Do you think that every marriage becomes sexless?

              thats a huge shame.

            • No.

              But statistically, nearly one-third of marriages in America are sexless (less than 10 times per year). Just Google it. Usually, it is because of the woman. Yes, sometimes it is the man. But most of the time it is the woman.

              Now that’s a huge shame is NK.

            • Past is future says:

              I agree. The quality and quantity of our sex life declined dramatically when we got married.

      • Some do, some worry about the STD’s, some worry about the sanctity of sex to them, etc.

      • I’m a woman who (when single) did not want a man with a high number of sexual partners. Many people seem to view sex as a sport, as a goal to pursue, demonstrated by such phrases as “get some” and “get laid”. To me, sex is a means of expression, a way to show your partner your feelings for her/him; something to share, not to get. I wanted a man who felt the same way.

    • wellokaythen says:

      I’d say “recent frequency” matters more to me than absolute numbers. If she’s only had five sex partners but was a virgin until last Wednesday, then I’d steer clear, at least for a little bit. I assume for most women it would be the same. (Some men don’t mind being part of a sex-crazed phase in someone’s life. I tend to like a little more stability.) There’s a difference between ten partners in ten years and ten partners since breakfast.

  5. John Geoghegan says:

    “Nice Guy Tokens.” I like that. Nice touch.

  6. Random_Stranger says:

    Ok, I’ll bite.
    I can’t help but think that while our culture’s transactional perspective of sex between men and women is guilty of exaggeration, it cannot be guilty of fabrication. While I do believe women desire sex, there appears to be a regrettable, disappointing and unbelievably frustrating, boatload of evidence suggesting men have vastly more desire than women. Cultures may choose to exploit, police, exaggerate or suppress the imbalance of sex drive between the genders for its purposes, but I don’t believe cultures could sustain such an illusion if men and women had no such innate difference to begin with.

    Take prostitution for example, probably the most essentialist commoditization of sex in a society. For whatever our attitudes are about the world’s oldest profession, we cannot deny that this market is remarkably consistent across time and space, even within the most isolated cultures, as an activity of overwhelmingly male buyers and female sellers. Even as women have grown in status, power and wealth in our modern culture, the reverse market, female buyers and male sellers, virtually does not exist .

    Don’t get me wrong; I think this reality totally sucks, but accepting our differences appears marginally better than denying them.

    • I believe women, as a general rule, want sex as much as men, but women tend to look for higher quality sex. I think that has more to do with female sexual response than with female sexual desire. The thought of paying a super hot guy for sex is completely unappealing for me because he wouldn’t really want me; I’d just be paying him. He might think my body is unattractive or even disgusting. That’s the fear I have and it would kill my enjoyment. Women need more context or something. Not a relationship, necessarily, but a real connection, real chemistry, with someone we like and trust. When I was a teenager, I often masturbated twice a day! I’m not exaggerating! I was as horny as any guy, I just didn’t show it. And believe me, I felt massive guilt and shame because of it.

      • I’m not sure that it’s a high quality lay, or a high quality mate women are looking for. Most of our instincts are built upon a time when most people didn’t live past 30, and pregnancy (a necessary consequence of coitus before contraceptions) was a huge health investment for women.

        Consider that in ancient times we didn’t have forceps or antibiotics. Not only was childbirth somewhat dangerous but without a social network women had to have a guarantee that her and the child would be provided for.

        In my experience even a woman on the negative side of average in looks (with no social skills, conversational ability, charm, interests, or other redeeming characteristics) still expects a man who’s dials in all of those characteristics (including confidence and money/authority) far surpass hers.

        And from a biological perspective this makes total sense. But, in the modern age of contraception these tactics don’t make any sense. There is only a limited supply of men who most women would feel intrinsic instant attraction for. Common sense says that average or subaverage looking women are going to lose out.

        That puts those women into the same boat as men: they are going to have to grow a strong stomach and prepare for lots of rejection and initiate if they want access to companionship.

      • Another stranger says:

        Our sex life involves lots of foreplay and multiple orgasms. Still, my partner thinks sex twice a week is a reasonable compromise, but would be happy with less. I seek out and crave new and different things to try, my partner’s really not that interested in my ideas and never offers any. Some times I’ll bend over backwards to make the sex all about my partner, who’s pretty passive in bed. I never get the same treatment in return.

        Who’s male and who’s female in this relationship? Who knows, right!? Because both sexes want sex just as much.

      • Soullite says:

        Then they don’t want it as much. Want is something specific; if one group is willing to accept a lower quality of a substance/activity in order to get a greater abundance of it, then it would generally be said that their desire for that substance/activity is greater.

        Indeed, the simple fact that one group is willing to pay for something, while the other group is not, proves the increased desire for it among the first group. That’s simple economics.

        All you’re really doing is explaining why you feel less desire for it.

      • Sarah,
        With the exception that testosterone, etc helps women NOT desire as much as men do, your comment is very close to the truth. While I am reluctant to use the word “quality” in comparing what women want versus what men what. You are spot on in realizing is that sex for men and women is spelled the same, but has a totally different meaning.

      • I think women of my generation (Sarah, I don’t know if you are) have been conditioned to regard sex very SERIOUSLY. We grew up with lots of SERIOUS warnings about the consequences of sex, and very little SERIOUS conversation around the pleasure of it. So the notion of CASUAL sex, of sex based on our own pleasure and desire, is kind of alien to many of us. Not all, obviously, but I can at least say it’s been my experience. And as to what we learned about boys, well, they’re at the mercy of their hormones, they just can’t help it, so all we can do is protect ourselves and be responsible and choose wisely.

        Quality doesn’t strike me as quite the right word, but I can’t supply a suitable alternative. I think you’re on the right track, though, that it’s not really a measurement of desire that influences our sexual activities and attitudes, but an attitude that we can’t be casual about this – or rather, we do so at our own risk. Some women embrace the risk and go for it – they are braver women than I.

        • I think the notion of casual sex may be alien to many women of a certain generation precisely because of ideas that sex that is based on women’s pleasure and desire. The phrase “I’m not in the mood” and “getting lucky” has been around since before my grandparents were born and implies a certain female control over sexuality.

          When sex gets casual the result is one night stands, and booty calls. What I like about sex in my generation is that men have more control of the when of sex than ever. Our pleasure and what we want has become more important to the mating process and timelines have sped up accordingly.

          A woman being casual about sex isn’t bravery.
          A woman publicizing that she is casual about sex is bravery since doing so puts her at a mating disadvantage.

          • You know, you’re right, I should have phrased that differently. I made a big error in my thinking, equating “casual sex” with “lots of sex with a variety of partners” i.e. promiscuity. But these are not the same thing. That’s my bias showing.

            Women who have sex with many different partners are, in my opinion, brave. The best way I can explain it is, one of the sentiments that stuck with me from sex ed is “When you have sex with someone, you have sex with all the people that person has ever had sex with.” It’s a bit alarmist, sure, but it makes enough sense to me that I can’t really refute it. I take it to heart. Some women are up for the risks associated with exposing themselves to so many partners, firsthand and by degrees of separation. As long as they are doing so safely, with protection, I have no beef with them. It’s just not something I think I could ever do myself, not because I think it’s bad or evil, but because I am so risk-averse and skittish (yep, those scare-based Sex Ed programs did their job on me).

            That’s promiscuity. Casual sex, on the other hand – which I understand to mean sex without the confines of an exclusive relationship, sex for the fun of it – is something I think I could hypothetically do. Not that I’m going to try, I’m married and happy that way. But I’m not opposed to the idea that (safe) sex with others for fun and pleasure can be a good thing for men, women and anything in between. It’s still alien to me on some level but with maturity, and with exposing myself to views on sex and sexuality that AREN’T rooted in sex prevention like the education I grew up with, I’ve come to see it in a more positive light.

            The conditioning is still there, though. I totally admit that in the past I have judged women who I felt were too flippant about sex, who had had many partners and continued that pattern. I try very hard to keep these judgement internal but, in the case of a friend-of-a-friend about whom I felt this way, I think she probably noticed I was cold towards her. Passing this kind of judgement is a reflex I consciously counteract now.

            Finally, you’re totally right too that the factors and attitudes that shaped my generation’s impression of sex have been around for ages. I just don’t feel right speaking far beyond the scope of my own experience. (And can’t even claim to speak for my generation either… just based off of my own experiences and observations.)

            • Ok. I follow you now. Make sense. Here’s my view.

              Whether one is brave to me depends on the level or risk and purpose of a specific activity. I don’t consider promiscuous women to be brave. I think they are adrenaline junkies, use sex for power, and objectify men, but they are not brave.

              Karen Owens from that Duke sex scandal exemplifies these type of women for me. She slept with 10+ fellow students (only athletes need apply) and then created a power point critique. I know plenty of promiscuous women (though none as bad as she) but most of them still have some mix of boundary issues, addictive personalities or odd views on masculinity and the use of sex.

              As far as casual sex goes.. I think “friends with benefits” is the best thing to happen to coupling in a long. I find it to be a wonderful compromise that gives both men and women not everything, but lots of what they both need. The relationships aren’t romantic so men don’t end up footing the bill for everything and the sex isn’t anonymous and contentious so women get more consideration in bed.

            • Friends with benefits is a great compromise, agreed on that. I can think of a few friends of mine who I wouldn’t mind a romp in the hay with, hypothetically – and continue on being friends afterwards. That said, I get the impression it can get messy, particularly when not all involved parties are on the same page about the arrangement. Casual sex, or FWB sex, is not emotionless sex. And not everyone is Master of their emotions (in fact, I’d say few people are). It requires a different understanding of boundaries than I think most of us are accustomed to. But yes, done right, great fun can be had by all. :)

            • candidcutie says:

              “A woman publicizing that she is casual about sex is bravery since doing so puts her at a mating disadvantage.”

              So under your definition wouldn’t the Duke poster be brave? Or does promiscuous and casual about sex mean different things? I understand and agree with your uncomfortable feelings towards the publication of the list, but what she did was not new, there have been lists like this for generations via various mediums. What made it surprising for (some/many?) was that it was a woman who posted it and in the age of the internet how fast it went viral. Would this fall under locker room talk? Ins’t at a “mating disadvantage” since you labeled her without the benefit of knowing her, her history or even being her shrink? Isn’t basing parts of your theory on “the women you know” a bit unscientific?

              The emphasis on when, implying that this is exclusively the domain of women is incorrect and misses the point women do enjoy sex. Sex research on women is relatively new, I mean we still are arguing over women have G spot and advances in contraception for men lags woefully behind women’s; there is plenty of growing we all need to do as sexual beings before we can definitively claim men are from mars and women are from venus. There is agency in women’s sexuality for some its natural, for some it’s mental. By ignoring that is assuming that there are no times where women desired sex and did not receive it or there are not times when women had sex with a partner when they didn’t want to but in order fulfill their partner’s desire or out of obligation.

              I liked the article because it was about better communication and less shame which I think are the number one and two cock blockers of our puritanical influenced sex lives. I always find it odd when someone puts down a sexual partner because they had sex with them… it’s like then what are you saying about yourself?

              And this just my take but I seen a lot of friends with benefits turn into not friends at all because one person develops feelings and it’s natural for people who have consistent sex with one another to bond over a certain amount of time, or someone is trying to “sex” their way into making that friend a partner lol. I am very fascinated by the whole polyamory trend though…

            • Karen Owens was outed. Nothing brave about being outed or being a jersey chaser.

              I don’t deny women’s sexual agency. Quite the contrary. I fight the lies about women’s sexual agency.

              Slut shaming actually democratize sex, what cock blocking it fosters affects mostly high value males. Premarital sex has been great for guys like me, because now I get many women, while other men now get none. Without sexual taboos women tend towards hyper gamy and that’s something I benefit from with today’s anti slut shaming mindsets, while my “beta” acquaintances suffer.

              Yup, polyamory is very fascinating because it’s super modern deregulated sex and so you get to observe female sexual nature in action minus all the typical social controls. Where do you think I got some of my insight?

          • If someone hacks my computer and traces my IP then I guess im screwed then!

            Theres not much I can do about my 30 sexual partners from the past.
            Some were the result of the time as when I getting over a broken hear, I craved more male attention. Some where relationships that I hoped to progress but didn’t always go anywhere. some were FWB and I had no intention of it going any further.

            I would like a long partner now and marriage possibly in the future. I’ll let you know if it turns out to be a major mating dis advantage in a few years.

            • Most men will never know unless the woman tells them. That simply is not going to happen. If you started having sex at 16 and you’re now 26 with 30 men….that 3 different men a year. If I were a man and knew this, I would NOT consider you for anything except a fuck, possibly. Even this I would have reservations about. Just being honest.

              I do believe having a high number of sexual partners is detrimental to marriage. If the other partner is not equally experienced, it is going to be an issue. Do not kid yourself.

              A woman will remember her best lover(s). Unless the husband is able to give her that kind of sex, he is not going to enjoy a good and healthy sex life with the woman. She is going to get sexually bored with her husband. Then it is all over for him. People can deny this all they want. They are simply being in denial.

              I am not sure just why a woman would want to suck and fuck 30 guys. What about HPV, STDs, STIs, Hepatitis B,C, from oral sex, throat cancer risks. Just makes no sense to me. But to each his or her own I guess.

            • would you say the same to a 26 year old guy who has f’ed 30 women? Should women reject him as a husband because he will remember his best livers and want to screw around? Shouldnt he worry abt STDs?

            • lovers, no livers, ha ha

            • @Sarah…Of course. But I am a man. That is the responsibility of women.

              The problem is women don’t seem to give a shit. Women will knowingly have sex with a man who is also sexing other women. They (women) just don’t seem to care. There are some women who want an “experienced” partner….

        • I’m 45 and, yes, when I was in my teens/20’s, in the 1980’s, I was terrified of AIDS, herpes, pregnancy, and being labelled a slut. I would have had tons more casual sex if not for those 4 things. I had many opportunities I said no to, even though I was super horny, because of those fears. Pregnancy could be avoided with the pill but it still worried me. My reputation was very important to me because I saw how “slutty” girls were treated. I assumed if I was “slutty” then men would use me, toss me aside, and I’d never get a boyfriend, and all my female friends would ostracize me.

          The worst thing was that when I was a college sophomore, I had casual sex with a guy who was a real a-hole and then tried to make a relationship work with him for 5 months because I felt so guilty. It was more important to tell myself “you aren’t slutty, you are in a relationship” than it was to walk away from a guy who treated me badly. Stupid stupid stupid. I wish I’d been able to fool around and have sexy funtimes without all that crappy baggage.

          • I am 24 and can relate to your story. I was a freshman when I had my first attempt at a one-night stand. Except I didn’t know that’s what it would be when I walked into it. I pestered the guy by phone for days afterwards before I finally got the hint – he didn’t answer but had he done so, I probably would have tried to make it go on longer. If I’d gotten to know him a little better I would have seen that this was pretty normal for him. One of the benefits, I guess, of having one of the very few Single-occupancy dorm rooms on campus. That whole event made me feel so shitty about myself I was in no hurry to try casual sex again.

            I had many opportunities I said no to, even though I was super horny, because of those fears. THIS. This is exactly what I was talking about. Some women, myself included, being so scared of the risks of sex that we just avoid it. If I’m horny and have a choice between finding someone for casual sex or just going with my own disease-free, impotent hand, well… not a hard choice. Masturbation is probably the only form of truly no-strings-attached sex.

            • Yup. Just two more cases of nice guys finishing last. If you two had banged your male friends rather than some “dude” none of this would have come to pass. 20 years apart and nothing has changed.

            • He WAS a friend. He just turned out to be kind of a jerk. It was partly my fault because I pressured him into a relationship he didn ‘t want. And by the way, I had other male friends who never indicated they wanted sex from me, but he did. Maybe if some of those other guys had given me reason to think they wsnted me, I would have slept with them instead.

            • He wasn’t your friend. He was someone you went to college with.

            • You don’t think I had friends in college? All of my friends were people I went to college with.

            • Of course you had friends in college, real friends, but he wasn’t one of them. He was a jerk and of of course you chose him for sex rather than another of your college friends

            • I’m of KKZ’s generation, and I chose almost exclusively college friends, a few who had been good friends for years and treated me well for very long periods of time. At worst, I chose friends of friends. Outside of college, the only new person I had sex with was a guy who was perfectly fine with not having sex for almost a year, but still called and texted every day, and was a complete sweetheart. I’m still friends, some good, some just friendly, with a lot of them.

            • I’m honestly confused by this comment. Good…bad..? I get it, you have something against me and my comments. We’re not always going to agree. I don’t agree with a lot of people on this forum. For example, I don’t always see eye to eye with Eric M., Archy, assman, Erin, or even Danny (although I agree with him most of the time), but they share their opinions and say what they have to say without attacking anyone or being snarky. This is supposed civilized forum…lets try and not throw personal insults. Just share stories and opinions. Arguments will happen, let’s try and at least listen to and understand each other.

            • Banging your friends may seem more foolproof than banging “some dude” but banging often f*cks up those “real” friendships. It works on paper but rarely in action. I value my male friends, including those from college, and back then I would not want to risk losing them as “real” friends just to bang them because I’m horny and they’re trustworthy. In my case, I did not know the guy very well, and I trusted him way too soon – and definitely learned from the mistake.

            • @AYA

              It’s a genuine compliment.

              I think that your choices in college was very smart and wise, but that surely wasn’t the normal behavior for women at my college. Most of the girls in my school were a lot more careless with their hookups. And that worked to my advantage. That’s all I meant.

            • @ Sarah
              Nothing is foolproof. But banging your friends is way safer. Especially for women. It really is. And no, you don’t just get drunk and horny and then jump the nearest guy friend. Of course you risk losing him that way. That’s not how FWB works.

            • @ KKZ
              Nothing is foolproof. But banging your friends is way safer. Especially for women. It really is. And no, you don’t just get drunk and horny and then jump the nearest guy friend. Of course you risk losing him that way. That’s not how FWB works.

            • It’s a little incredible (by which I mean not at all) that two women try to exchange stories about how the expression of their sexuality was inhibited by scare stories, gender stereotypes, sex negativity and slut-shaming and your response @IBDY is to ignore the obvious content – social structures inhibit women from admitting and acting on their desire (because y’know that’s not something that have) – in favour of a willfully obscure interpretation about how they brought it on themselves (heard that one before) by refusing to hand out the goodies to their beta friends – who no doubt they had high-handedly consigned to the friend-zone. Anyway, more to the point, your position in the MRAniverse appears to be drifting a little. Here you’re fighting for the niceguys, but upthread you were an alpha. I’m confused. Help a desireless hypogamous girl out will ya?

            • Yes you are indeed confused.
              Ya see, if the aforementioned social structures were TRULY sooo inhibiting these women would have slept with no one, let alone jerks. Sniff test failed.

              But more importantly why is it that you can’t tell the difference between explanation and advocacy? Here. I’ll spoon feed you. You reap what you sow. If you lie down with dogs you wake up with fleas. Is it clear now?

            • That’s misandric, to compare men to animals, especially dogs. Men are human beings, even the ones who aren’t perfect or don’t act perfectly.

            • I tried but couldn’t come up with a better phrase. Why don’t you help me out.

            • IDBY, I think you would criticize me no matter what story I told. If I said I was a virgin until marriage, you would tell me that I was a either prude or a golddigger or I was holding out sex as a carrot to gain access to a man’s resources. If I slept with every guy who gave me two glances, you’d tell me I was a hypergamous bitch for not sleeping with the guys who only glanced at me once. :-) I tell you I slept with a guy and it turned out badly, and you tell me I slept with the wrong guy, or he wasn’t my friend, or — actually, I’m not sure what your point is — but anyway it’s all my fault. I think I’ve figured it out — whatever a woman does, it’s wrong! I’ve got it now. (In response, I will bet dollar to donuts you will say something about feminists.) Honestly, I’m starting to suspect you are a guy with some issues.

            • Please, the guys I have had sex with were mostly friends first or betas.
              I”ve never been an obvious alpha chaser. I know girls who are or where (as we grow we change this).

            • You are rare.

            • Just saying…my first attempt at a one night stand had the guy finding my address and sending me chocolates and stuffed animals for Valentine’s Day, after I’d forgotten all about him and was dating someone else. So it’s not ALL one night stands that end with the guy being a jerk. Not that a lot don’t, of course. That’s why you go for the nice guys and try to make the first move instead of going home with someone slimy or game-playing.

            • “That’s why you go for the nice guys…….”

              Wow! A young woman actually going for a nice guy. Shocking! But, I have to wonder if he is really a “nice guy.”

              The only occasions I see young women going for nice guys is for $$$$$$. Older women usually seek out these men when they finally realize and accept that Mr. Perfect does not exist. Sadly, many women never accept this reality.

            • “Please allow me to deny your experience!”

      • Jonathan G says:

        I believe women, as a general rule, want sex as much as men, but women tend to look for higher quality sex. I think that has more to do with female sexual response than with female sexual desire.

        Human behavior is complex enough that any particular phenomenon that we observe likely has myriad antecedents in a hard-to-untangle interplay. So, I think this first statement is correct, and the second is not the whole story.

        Consider what we have learned about behavioral psychology: That intermittent reward for a behavior reinforces that behavior most strongly. The experimental rat presented a lever that dispenses a food pellet on each pull quickly becomes complacent and lose interest in the lever unless it’s hungry. Similarly for the rat pulling a lever that rewards it consistently, say, every 10th pull. It’s when the lever dispenses a food pellet intermittently — randomly — that the rat becomes an inveterate lever-puller, constantly working for the reward though the rat doesn’t know when, or if, it’ll arrive.

        The same psychology applies to humans, by the way, as in the queasily-similar example of glassy-eyed slot-machine gamblers compulsively pulling that lever in hopes of a reward that only intermittently arrives. If the slot-machine paid off every, say, 50th pull of the lever, it wouldn’t have the same addictive power over people.

        I firmly believe that the same applies to human heterosexual relations. As the cynical saying goes, “Men propose, women dispose.” To the typical guy, the effort he puts into getting laid is just like the slot machine: It pays off randomly, and for reasons he can’t ever know. For example, at a bar or at a party, how many women decided to show up that night? Do any of them find him attractive enough? Are they horny enough? Is his “game” good enough? How many other guys there are taller, more charming, richer, more popular? Thus, his sex-seeking behavior gets rewarded intermittently– the most powerful reinforcement pattern. This fact means that us erstwhile-behavioral psychologists see the average guy engage in sex-seeking behavior routinely, and sometimes almost compulsively.

        On the average woman’s side, though, things look entirely different! She knows that, with all of the compulsively sex-seeking men out there, she can find sex virtually whenever she wants. True, it may not be with the quality of partner or quality of sex that she would like, but she can almost always get something. Oh, and, hey, what of the rat that get a food pellet every time it pulls the lever? There we go– the average woman who knows that she can get sex nearly on-demand can therefore be more sanguine about seeking it. She has the luxury of turning a critical eye to her selection of potential partners and picking out the higher-quality sexual opportunities.

        Perhaps you’re right, Sarah, that the difference in sex-seeking behavior stems more from female sexual response than her sexual desire, but I also believe that the dynamic that we see is also an inevitable result of the male-pursues cultural norm.

        (By the way, I can see this principle in action with my gay male friends who could hit the gay clubs and have sex every night of the week, if they wanted. But they don’t do it, preferring to look for quality. Also, in Neil Strauss’ The Game, he recounts how it came to pass that once he became a master of the game, and could be assured of a sexual encounter every time he went out, that he turned more blasé about sex.)

        • If I knew I would get a mind blowing orgasm every time I had sex, regardless of whether or not the man in question was drunk, inexperienced, or whatever, I’d be more inclined to give it a try. But I’ve had enough bad sex to know that bad sex, for women, can be very bad. That’s what I mean by quality sex.

          • Then you would be rare.

            Women don’t pick partners based on potential for “great sex”. I have friends who bend over backwards in bed for women, but still are only moderately successful finding partners.

            • I don’t know what a guy will be like in bed until I sleep with him. He might be awesome or horrible; my point is, after a few crappy experiences, casual sex may not seem worth the risk. It could turn out unpleasant or a waste of time. Guys feel differently, maybe, because chances are they will have a pleasurable experience regardless. The are almost guaranteed an orgasm even if the woman is a cold fish.

            • Not true. You have a very good chance of knowing what a guy is like in bed.. before you sleep with him. Women just aren’t interested in looking for the clues. You guys focus on other things you consider more important. My success with women does not come from me broadcasting anything about what I’m like in bed. I’ve tried that before and it was a waste of time.

            • True.

              First and foremost women choose men whom they regard as attractive and likable. Most men, I dare say, do NOT meet the standards of being attractive and likable for most women.

              When it comes to sex, women seek good sex. That’s why women will have their boy toys..etc. These are only men the woman knows who can provide them with good sex. They are not necessary men they would even date. Often they are not. They are simply men that the women find physically attractive and can give them the good sex they desire.

              So, while they are in search of Mr. Tall, Dark, Handsome, and Square Jawed, these men are around to meet their physical needs, only. Usually, this lucky fellow is sexing several women. The women are aware of it and do not care as it is viewed as just good sex.

            • “So, while they are in search of Mr. Tall, Dark, Handsome, and Square Jawed, these men are around to meet their physical needs, only.”

              No, no, no. How can you possibly know that this is every woman ever’s specific preference. My best female friend is gorgeous and sought out. She has been happily dating and living with a short, balding man her age who makes much less than she does. But she loves him. She’s all over him whenever they’re together, even after several years. Those aren’t my preferences. To be honest, I don’t have too many…it’s just a matter of chemistry, attraction, and the guy respecting me and being nice to me. I never go…”oh man, that CHIN, MUST JUMP INTO BED.” What’s handsome to one woman isn’t to another. Tall is requirement for some women, but who cares about the ones who are so picky that they consider it a dealbreaker? As for dark? What does that even mean? Dark-skinned men? I’ll tell you that plenty of dark skinned black men lament that women and media go for light skinned types. Tanned? Well too much sun causes wrinkles and skin cancer, and do men really want to spend time and money on decent spray tans? Dark hair? Not really. Women don’t really care THAT much about hair color. Just go with one that fits your face and who you are.

            • I think you misread my post

              My point is women have sex with men whom they find attractive and likable. Yes, this does vary from woman to woman except for Mr. Tall,Dark, Handsome and Square-Jawed. These men seem to have universal appeal with women. No, I am not referring to racial dark. Just look around you. Whom are the women throwing themselves after?

              As for your gorgeous friend, the difference is she is in love with her short, balding man. That’s entirely different. It is an exception.

              Here we are talking about whom women are more likely to have sex with. He must be attractive and likable. But bear in mind that most women find only a few men attractive. Whom a woman elects to date is yet again different than who she decides to screw. Just because she is screwing him does not mean she thinks enough of him to date. Right? He is just a great sex partner.

              So, if she is fucking him, he is NOT necessarily dating material. Alternatively, if she is dating him, she is also fucking him. Agree? This is how it is in reality.

            • agreed.

              repeating what I said above though, the majority of guys I’ve just ‘had’ sex with were not the tall, dark and chiselled jaw types. But, yes I do find them attractive. But I don’t see them as husband material. Im not waiting for this perfect tall, dark and handsome man to come by and marry me. I want a slightly nerdy, introverted, music lover with the same values as me to come on by.

      • wellokaythen says:

        If women want sex just as much as men but are more particular about the quality of the sexual experience, then honestly I find that idea totally depressing. That means, in all those relationships where it looked like I wanted sex much more than she did, or more often than she did, she must simply have been frequently repulsed by the idea of having sex with me. Therefore, when they said it was not me and that men just want more sex than women, then they were all lying or ill-informed. Being with me meant they had a lot of unfulfilled desire to have sex. That means that every time I felt frustrated or rejected, she must have felt sexually frustrated as well. I find that all too believable, in fact. Like I said, that’s depressing….

        Or, perhaps it’s a question of the average woman and the average man, and I have just been singularly unlucky in matching up with women on the low side of the bell curve. At some point, aren’t I “due” for having a partner on the other end of the bell curve? Isn’t someone going to even out my karma by wanting sex more often than I do?

    • Another thing to keep in mind regarding casual sex and prostitution is that the vast majority of women cannot orgasm without clitoral stimulation, and even with it, sex can still be very painful for reasons that the guy cannot anticipate or control. Foreplay mitigates these issues but most women don’t go into a casual sexual encounter expecting a lot of foreplay and most men don’t expect to be giving much of it. Therefore it makes sense that most women prefer a sexual encounter with someone who knows how to get them off and who they can communicate their needs to over someone who most likely is going to treat them like a fuckhole.

      I do not necessarily consider this to be a proclamation that men *prefer* sex more than women do but rather that, when the act itself is centered around the guy getting off as much as he can, guys are going to enjoy it more inevitably. If we lived in a culture where sex was synonymous with getting women off and the man was just supposed to blow his load and put up with it, then giving a lot of foreplay would be expected and a woman could solicit whoever she wanted to and expect to be fully satisfied. In such a culture there would probably be tons of evolutionary psychologists and pop scientists (female obviously) who would argue that, since women can orgasm multiple times, women are more sexual and men with their one pitiful orgasm, are just expected to do what is necessary for procreation.

      • Jonathan G says:

        Foreplay mitigates these issues but most women don’t go into a casual sexual encounter expecting a lot of foreplay and most men don’t expect to be giving much of it. Therefore it makes sense that most women prefer a sexual encounter with someone who knows how to get them off and who they can communicate their needs to over someone who most likely is going to treat them like a fuckhole.

        Wow. Really, wow. Is this really how most casual sexual encounters go? If so, I really feel bad for you. Honestly, I know exactly how you feel. I don’t have much experience, just four partners. I really like foreplay (or I as I call it, “the best part”), but all four of my partners wanted to get to the stickin’-it-in part in very short order. Much, much sooner than I would’ve liked.

        Perhaps you could circulate my name among your circle of friends for when they want a lots-of-foreplay casual sexual encounter? 😉

      • You overstate culture. Your feminist utopia fails. None of what you imagine explains female hypergamy. Women do not seek out males who are best at sex and never have. And no real scientist would ever define sexual interest as capacity to orgasm, rather than an actual interest in having sex under the most conditions.

        • “Your feminist utopia fails.” is the phrase of the day.

        • @IDBY…Again, you are correct in your conclusions.

          As much as things have changed, so many things remain the same. Women still seek out (for lifetime partners) men who are good providers, exhibit stability, are dependable…….the typical list for most women is very long indeed which helps to explain why so many are still single well into their 30s and 40s. Even though many profess to want to be married…

          With that said, money/financial resources are paramount for most women. While many will deny it, don’t be fooled. Even women who are extremely successful and earning well into the six figures desire a man who has an even HIGHER status. Equality is not good enough.

          It’s always about the $$$$. It is not the only things. But it is at the TOP of their list. You can take that to the bank!

          • Is there anything wrong with wanting someone who is stable and dependable? As opposed to what, unstable and unreliable? :-)

            I don’t approve of women who judge men solely on their wealth or lack thereof, but wanting stability and dependability seem like good things, especially if you are hoping to have a family.

            • “Stability” is just a kind euphemism for wealth. And “someone”is just a euphemism for man. Now is there anything wrong with women sexually valuing a man with money? Nope! But own it girlfriend!

            • “Stability” may be a euphemism for wealth on the part of some people, but not everybody, and it doesn’t at all mean the same thing. By definition. Think about it for a bit.

              I’m a woman who married a man who believes in voluntary poverty. You know, *serious* simple living. We don’t have a car, even though we live in the country; we do our shopping by arranging to run our neighbors’ errands for them. I know. Insane. Anyway my point is, my man was not only poor when I married him but committed to always being so. I fell in love with him, I believe in this lifestyle too, I married him. And I value his stability. I wouldn’t have joined him in such a lifestyle without it.

              He could’ve been rich and not stable–the guy with a good job and a savings account who’s going to end up blowing it all on drugs & going to gamlbing debt. He could’ve been rich and stable–the guy who’s going to stay rich. He could’ve been poor and not stable–i.e. homeless or soon to be. But what he is, is poor and stable–the guy who’s got my back, who carefully maintains every piece of equipment we own because we can’t afford to buy another, who’s always got in his mind “what do we need and how can I make sure we have it,” who’s more careful with money than I am, etc. We always have enough. If he wasn’t stable, we wouldn’t.

              Now you can argue that my choice reflects the whole evolutionary thing “well if I have sex with this guy I want to be sure any resulting children will get fed”. Well, of course it does. Screw evolution, it’s just plain common sense; has been for millions of years and, if you are actually planning kids, still is. What you canNOT argue is that my choice reflects the “all women think money is hot” crap.

              Maybe some women find money hot. I don’t. But I do like stability, and it ain’t the same thing, bro.

            • @Sarah….No, I do not have an issue with it. It’s a matter of degree.

              My problem with a lot of women is their unwillingness to consider men of a lower financial status. I am a man who earns over $200,000 a year. Not bragging but I have worked my ass off and continue to do so 10 hrs a day, 6 days a week. Have two grad degree (Fin & Econ). I own a small financial planning biz. My high status get me women, period. However, I really avoid women whom I think are looking at me for my cash.

              I have female clients who earn similarly. They are single and whine ad nauseam about the paucity of good men. What they really want is a doctor, lawyer, CFO, COO,CEO or similar who makes MORE than they do. They don’t need the guy’s money. So, why are they insisting on marrying up?

              One is 36 and only dates CFOs and other high status men. She is frustrated they want commit. Why should they? They are having a field day with women. She is miffed that these men are dating lower status women. She thinks she is a great catch. She isn’t. Why on earth would they want to do a stupid thing like getting married? Only if they want a family. But the guys has options there too outside of marriage.

              It makes NO sense to me to insist on marrying up when it is not necessary. Men do not behave in such a manner.

            • Jules, you make good points. There are women who are in only it for the money and that is shameful. But speaking as a woman who has a professional career (and BTW, I make more money than my current boyfriend) I think one major issue for me is that I am ambitious and work hard and I’ve been successful at my job. It is hard to see myself being compatible long term with a man who doesn’t feel the same way about himself. It really isn’t about the money, although honestly, it would be kind of a bummer to date someone who had a really low paying job and no money because the things I like to do tend to cost money. Not a ton of money but, for example, I like to eat out and when I travel Iike nice hotels. I spent a few years as a starving student riding the bus, staying in crappy motels, and eating ramen and beans from a can. I don’t want that again. On the other hand, I can see myself with someone who wasn’t making a lot of money if he had passion for what he was doing. I might have to pay for all the dinners and vacations but that would be okay. However, if he’s not educated, well-read, and informed about the world, we would frankly have nothing to talk about. That’s the important thing for me.

              I think men in general are not looking for an “equal” when they choose women — mostly what they care about is her looks, followed by a nice low-drama personality. They don’t care if she can have a conversation or if she reads the New York Times.

              Also, you are assuming that blue collar guys or guys with less money would be interested in dating a woman who has a law degree or is in finance or whatever and makes $200k a year. I suspect not, as in my experience personally, only a small minority of men do not feel intimidated by my career.

              I do not whine anymore about men because I eventually came to accept that men generally do not value the things I value about myself, such as my education, talents and intelligence. Most men are looking for a nice body and a pretty smile. therefore I will always lose when I compete with women who have more to offer in that regard. That’s the way of the world. You can’t let others define you.

            • You know what I value a lot in women? Confidence. And you have a defeatist attitude and resign to the fact “most men” don’t value X when you would like them to. It’s as silly as men shooting themselves in the foot by not approaching women because they feel most women want a guy with more money, more this, better that.

              I’d be comfy dating a woman who earns 10x what I do, as long as she respects me. Hell it’d be great to learn from her how to make decent money, I’d love to a date a woman who was savvy with investments n could guide my own. The basics I desire are:Decent personality, kind, sweet, affectionate at least to me and our kids one day, Hopefully intelligent but I value kindness more as I’ve known women who weren’t super intelligent but had a great heart. Physically attractive to me, doesn’t have to supermodel looks of course, but physical attraction is necessary. Finally, I don’t want to be a sugar daddy but if illness/etc happens I don’t mind supporting her. Respect n honesty are also huge drawcards.

              Intelligence is good but I try not to think too highly of it because often it’s insulting to those who aren’t so fortunate. I can appreciate intelligence but I don’t rank it as extra special or anything, to me a good heart is one of the best attributes a person can have. Intelligence won’t make me feel warm n fuzzy but a thoughtful caring woman certainly does, feeling her warmth, love, empathy etc are pretty much magical to me. A “pretty” smile (to me) is also my weakness, it makes me feel better when I see someone I like who has that smile but that smile has more to do with them as a person vs their looks.

              I do appreciate hard workers and those with goals but I don’t look down upon those who are in shitty careers, have low education, etc.

            • Archy, I think you are making a lot of my points about what men are looking for in women, actually!

              I love kindness too and I don’t look down on people who are less educated or not smart as long as they are a good person. i apologize if it sounded that way in my comment. I didn’t mean to sound elitist. but for a relationship, yes, Intelligence and education are important to me because otherwise I don’t think we’d be compatible. I have an advanced degree, read books constantly and know a lot about many subjects. I don’t say that to brag, it’s just a fact. it’s who I am. I’m a huge nerd, actually. If I was dating a guy who was a plumber, say, who never went to college and never reads a book, what the heck would we ever talk about? He could be the most wonderful guy in the world, he could have a successful plumbing business and be richer than most doctors. But that isn’t going to help us relate to each other on an intellectual level, which is something I need. I want to be with someone who is intensely curious about the world. Who is willing to go to the theater and museums and watch independent films and have intense but well informed discussions about social and political issues. ‘Cause that’s what I Iike to do.

              I don’t lack confidence but after 45 years on this planet, I have learned that most men are not buying what I’m selling, alas. Actually I Iearned that by the time I was 23. Men want to be with me because they think I’m attractive, they are thrilled to learn that I like sex, and they think I’m a nice person. That’s about the extent of it. My education and intelligence are liabilities when it comes to dating, that’s just a fact of life. My mom used to tell me, when I was a nerdy, awkward teenager, “someday you will find a man who will love you be because you are smart.”. It was nice of her to say that, but it was a lie. Looking back on it, she should have taken me shopping and helped me pick out better clothes. That would have done me more good in the long run!

              I hope I don’t sound bitter. I’m not bitter, I’m realistic. I am in a great relationship right now but I’m not fooling myself. He doesn’t give a rat’s ass about my career or my degrees. He’s happy I make my own money because I don’t expect him to pay for everything. That’s the only benefit he sees in it.

              I dated a guy once who said it was great that I was smart because “your kids will be smart!” I wasn’t sure if I should be flattered or cry.

              Anyway I was responding to Jules’ comment about professional women who won’t date “beneath” them so I’m trying to explain how that may just be about compatibility and not because women are always trying to marry “up.” Personally I’d rather stay single that settle for a relationship that won’t make me happy.

            • Is it possible that they do care about your career, but it’s just not a per-requisite for them?

            • @Archy, what I mean is, no guy has ever dated me because they were iimpressed with my career. On the contrary, they dated me in spite of my career. I think being successful.and having a career makes me unappealing, if anything.

            • Sarah, yes many men do feel intimidated with women who have high and successful careers, but I dont know if it makes women unappealing to men. I have several times attracted with succesful and smart women, but I dont have courage to approach them. I like them, but I feel like they would not like me. Like you said before, you prefer men who have at least same inteligence or wealth like you. Then why would men who feel they are in lower class approach women like you? We know women like you would not accept and like us, so we prefer to approach women who are equal or lower than us. Me, for example, prefer women who like me. That, thats all I care, women who love me, attracted to me, care for me. Intelligence , wealth, high social status sure make women more attractive, but sometimes it can be intimidating because many men are insecure. We are afraid being rejected. We have feelings. Yes, we are. I can get broken heart and crying every night for months after rejected, so I choose not to take a risk. I going to pursue women I feel I have chance with them. Yes I’m a coward, pathetic loser. But thats me.

          • Jules, please don’t talk for all of us…I don’t care about money, and it’s right at the bottom of what I look for in a partner. There are lots of things I do look for, some of them obvious – kindness, humour, intelligence, not being a right wing nut-job – but above all I look for someone who likes sex, isn’t shamed by it, and who likes women who enjoy sex, and wants to encourage that enjoyment.

            • “…but above all I look for someone who likes sex, isn’t shamed by it, and who likes women who enjoy sex, and wants to encourage that enjoyment.”

              You should not be having any problems my dear. I just hope you enjoy sex for a lifetime and not do like so many women after they get married and shut it (sex) off.

              Yes, not all women think this way. But the majority of women who are looking for a long term partner or husband will put finance at or near the top of their list of requirements in a man.

            • I sincerely, sincerely, sincerely hope that when I get married that I don’t lose my sex drive, even after a couple of kids.

              Its my worst nightmare. I enjoy sex too much. we shall see what happens – but I’m going to bury myself a time capsule and open it after some time of marriage and read it to remind myself.

              I agree that there are a lot of women who see finance as top of there list. Good luck to them. I am ambitious but I am moving into teaching, hardly a profession where i’ll be CEO or highly powered. I would like a man to earn a reasonable amount of money, but whats important than that is his passion for a cause or occupation. If I met a guy right now who is broke but has plans then that sounds much interesting than someone whose already there. I would like to grow with someone. It doesn’t matter so much what they want to do so long as its nice enough to the world !
              wealth isn’t all about money. I really don’t care if I earn more than my future partner. As long as he’s productive.

    • “Even as women have grown in status, power and wealth in our modern culture, the reverse market, female buyers and male sellers, virtually does not exist .”

      Because women have easy access to sex. Most women (even unattractrive women) have boy toys, maintenance men, and fuck buddies that they can just call and get a good shagging. It is not difficult at all for a women to get sex.

      We men, in general, do not enjoy such a luxury. Only a few men have such a privilage. So, that is a double standard too.

      • Really? That hasn’t been my experience at all. I have always been pretty average looking, and I have more negatives than positives appearance-wise (chubby, too tall, I have an angular and somewhat unfeminine face, and I wear glasses). Even when I was in my early 20’s, I couldn’t just go out and get sex whenever I wanted. I never had guys pursuing me; around my college campus, no one ever introduced themselves to me; I was rarely approached in clubs — and then only by the drunkest guys –while some of my friends had to beat guys off with a stick. Etc. Men know very little about the experience of “invisible” women in out culture. You judge everything by your perception of what life must be like for the only women who you are conscious of. Conventionally attractive women. I don’t have any f-buddies who I can go shag.

        • The question I am curious on, is are there as many invisible women as there are men?
          “I never had guys pursuing me; around my college campus, no one ever introduced themselves to me; I was rarely approached in clubs — and then only by the drunkest guys –while some of my friends had to beat guys off with a stick.”
          Were you approaching them? If you were waiting for them to come to you then your results can drop a lot, especially if you are with others, look annoyed or closed off for some reason.

          Invisible women who are passive won’t get much luck, but how many men are also invisible? How often do men have women approaching them? Often it’s the man who has to approaching to start off the mating ritual. The average woman I would guess would get a higher rate of return from approaching average men, than the reverse. Most men I know, if they weren’t actively pursuing women they would be invisible as well.

          Even invisible women seem to have no idea what it is like to be a man, most of us cannot stand n wait yet it seems you were actually approached sometimes yet how many men get approached by women? I’ve NEVER had a woman approach me in a club, never had them pursue me first.

          Get an average man and an average woman to approach 20 average people for casual sex and I am willing to bet the woman will be more successful.

          Women know very little about the experience of “invisible” men in out culture…..I’d say of the not-so-attractive people I know, far more of the females get laid, get relationships more often than the guys.

          • Actually, I made more effort to pursue guys than most women I knew. I would go up and talk to guys that I liked and hope that they would discover that I was an interesting person even if I wasn’t super “hot.” That never worked out well, to be honest. The men always seemed extremely uncomfortable and generally did not respond well to my overtures. I had a huge crush on this one guy and I even asked him out to a movie. We went to the movie, but then afterwards he said to me “I don’t think we should go out again. Men are hunters. We don’t like to be pursued, we like to chase. You shouldn’t ask men out. It’s weird.” I’m not making that up! I was crushed and I never asked a guy out again.

            Let me be clear, I know that many men have a really tough time dating-wise and I’m not saying that women in general have it as tough as men in general. Men have to deal with constant rejection and that sucks.

            I’m just tired of reading comments from guys claiming that any woman can just walk outside and find guys at the drop of a hat. It doesn’t work that way for a lot of women. Women suffer rejection too, maybe in a quieter and less visible way, of being ignored. But that sucks too.

          • And let me clarify another thing, I’m not saying that I never had opportunities for sex, I did. As I said in an earlier comment, I had opportunities for casual sex during my life that I turned down because of fear of STD’s and being labelled slutty. Those opportunities were occasionally with guy friends or more often guys who were very drunk at parties. That may be different than the experience of the average man. So, again, my original comment was kind of a visceral reaction to this idea that women have it totally easy because that’s not true, I never felt that I had it easy. And in trying to pursue the guys Iliked, I seemed to be rejected a lot. I often felt like I was in this state of constant unsatisfied horniness, unable to get the kind of attention I wanted from men and feeling like my only option was a casual hookup with a really intoxicated frat boy at a bar who didn’t want to go home alone and would take anyone (which wasn’t what I really wanted). It was all very confusing at that age.

            • “That may be different than the experience of the average man.”
              I think the difference here is that you couldn’t get the guys you WANTED and the guys commenting here are talking about getting sex with ANYONE.

              It’s not easy, but is is EASIER for women to get casual sex than a guy if she wants it and with just anyone. That’s the point, guys find it harder to find that casual sex regardless of if they want that woman or not. In the sexual economy, women are a step up in the casual sex game in regards to availability of a partner of the opposite sex willing to sleep with them, it appears they simply have more options.

              Whilst you may not want to hookup with the randoms at a bar, I’d say there are quite a few men who’d jump at the chance and it’s an option they rarely get. I can easily guess you’d get far more options than the average man for casual sex simply because it seems there are far more men looking for it than women. You may not like the options though but that’s a moot point when it’s still easier for you to find ANY casual sex.

              It may not be easier to find what you want though, but that comes down to your standards and what you’re attracted to.

              “Those opportunities were occasionally with guy friends or more often guys who were very drunk at parties.”
              And for the less-attractive men these opportunities are usually unheard of. A man of similar attractiveness as you will most likely have less opportunities than you do for casual sex.

              So basically you’re proving the point the op is most likely talking about, if women want sex it’s easier for them to get it in any form than a man….

            • I get your point Archy but even men do not want to have sex with just ANY woman. They want to have sex with attractive, desirable women. So say I’m a guy and I want sex. What percentage of women “out there” would I be willing to have sex with? I’m guessing it’s a pretty low percentage if you count every single woman I encounter. Remeber that Seinfeld episode where Jerry said that 90% of people are “undateable”? That’s probably generous. If women were more assertive and guys had more opportunities for sex, I think they would find themselves turning down sex a lot, just like women do, because they just don’t find the women in question attractive enough to them personally.

              I guess I just find it odd when guys complain that “women can go in a bar and ask any random guy for sex and he’ll agree” — first, I don’t think that’s true, and second, even if it is true, who really wants to do that? I mean, walk outside and really look at all the women you see. Would you have sex with just any of them? Older women, fat women, women with bad teeth, druggies? I doubt it. Men have standards too.

              I said in an earlier comment that women want quality sex but I think men want quality sex too, it’s just that quality sex for men may simply depend on how physically attractive the woman is, whereas women look more for an emotional connection (even in hookup situations). But both men and women feel frustration about their inability to find quality sex with attractive partners (even if we may use different criteria sometimes)

              I guess what I’m saying is that women also feel sexual frustration, disappointment and rejection, especially women who are less attractive and don’t have many opportunities. Once you’ve had a couple 2 am hookups with desperate drunk guys who really don’t give a crap about you and aren’t even really attracted to you, and never want to talk to you again, the experience isn’t worth repeating.

            • “women can go in a bar and ask any random guy for sex and he’ll agree”

              We don’t say women, we say “average” women. And yes that’s true. And most guys would LOVE on demand sexual access to “average” women.

            • maybe the word average is throwing me – to me, “average” means “not very attractive” – kind of the C student of attractiveness, in other words, compared to everyone else in the curve. Not appealing. Not terribly desirable. 5 out of 10. In my experience, guys reject “average” women all the time.

            • Yes average is throwing you. Your logic is circular. To you average = not very attractive. But that’s not what average is. Average is the typical woman (height, weight, BWI, hair length, etc.) and men find her very doable, though that is changing as women become more sedentary and less healthy.

            • I still don’t really get how you define “average.” Average usually has a negative connotation in common parlance. Most people are not looking for average, they are looking for above average or better, in all the choices they make. Would you be happy if a teacher told you your son was an average student? You’d get him a tutor and start telling him to study more, What if your boss told you that you are an average employee? You’d be thinking about getting a new job. It sounds more like what you call “average” is actually “fairly attractive” or “somewhat above average” like a B+.

              But, whatever, semantics.

            • @Sarah,

              Hope this helps… don’t look at the faces (not average) look at the bodies.

              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1213475/Whats-happened-bodies-Womens-figures-transformed-past-60-years–huge-implications-health.html

              What percentage of men would sleep with the average woman on the left? How about the new average woman on the right? Guess.

            • IDBY, I don’t follow you, are you saying men would find the somewhat chubby “new average” woman “undoable” compared to the skinnier woman on the left? Or are you saying there’s no difference?

            • I don’t know. I look back at my college years and at all of the men I knew–from good friends to acquaintances. A HUGE chunk of them had no problem getting sex–even casual sex. Some had to initiate, but many had women at their doorstep. Not always the women they wanted, but women who made it clear they were willing. There were a few on the very bottom end of the looks and awkward spectrum that had trouble…but then there were a few girls on the very end of the looks and awkward spectrum who also got ignored or rejected. The only guys who didn’t have casual sex or friends with benefits were the guys who really wanted something more or were the relationship type.. There were some of those too…the ones who spent their college years in a serious relationship or the ones who were waiting for someone special (and even those had drunken sex once in a while). This is possibly a bubble, but the college hook-up scene is kind of a free for all.

            • I betcha a huge chunk of these guys would have told you that getting casual sex was not as easy for them as you make it out to be. But you didn’t ask, now did you?

              Why do you think there is so much alcohol on campus?

            • You have no idea what I asked or what I didn’t ask. That was an attack on me, not knowing anything about me or my friends or what I did. Uncalled for and unhelpful. And by the way, it’s untrue that I didn’t ask…I listened to what they had to say. Some had a bit of trouble, some didn’t, some had trouble to begin with, but then gained confidence. We’re not trying to attack or make assumptions on this site, just start and continue a civil discussion.

              As for the alcohol…because getting drunk can be fun? Both guys and girls drank. It can help loosen inhibitions. Later on, you learn to appreciate it for its taste and it becomes a part of social bonding.

            • Aren’t assumptions about a person and personal attacks against commenting policy, moderators?

            • This is because women outnumber men on college campuses today by a 60% to 40% margin or 3:2 ratio. So, you have a real shortage of men. The result is many are having a field day.

              The problem is further compounded by the fact that most of these college age women are too picky and discriminating. I am willing to bet ( as with women outside of college) most of these young women immediately toss out half of the men. They are “unattractive.”

              So, now you’re down to say 20% of the men for the women. So, you have all these young women (horny as hell) going after the select 20% of men. Again, this is a mirror image of real life for the dating scene today. Women chasing after a few and select number of men who are deemed universally attractive by almost all women. Mr. Tall, Dark, Handsome, and Square-Jawed.

            • Aya, if those women who were ignored actually did pursue guys, initiated, do you think their success rate would be lower than guys of equal looks? Or would they have more success?

            • Good question, Archy. Some did, and some didn’t. There were girls who very aggressively pursued. Whether they did get sex in the end or didn’t, they were made fun of A LOT. One guy joked about how he ‘let’ this girl give him a blow job. Others were called stalkers, freaky, or had details of sexual encounters spread around and laughed at. It wasn’t even slut-shaming, even (that seems to actually happen more to ‘hot’ and insecure girls), they were just sort of made into a joke or pitied. I hate to bring up pop culture, but the only comparison I can think of is a milder version of how the guys on ‘Jersey Shore’ act towards women…calling them grenades, stalkers, pity f**ks, desperate…and tearing apart their bodies. I pose this question too. If you could get sex, but you knew that you’d be humiliated, would you?

            • Depends how desperate I was. Do the women ever humiliate the guys? Especially after sex? Maybe they’ll call him a playa?

            • @Aya, you make a good point. In my experience, women who are too open about their desire for sex risk being mocked. They may get sex, but they are not taken seriously. Men complain that women won’t initiate, but what would they really think of a woman who initiated? They might sleep with her but they would probably feel contempt for her — in fact I notice this attitude all the time in comments from self-professed PUA’s. They seem to have no sympathy or compassion for the women they are sleeping with. They constantly denigrate them and laugh at their stupidity for falling for the “game.”

            • Sarah:
              I get your point Archy but even men do not want to have sex with just ANY woman. They want to have sex with attractive, desirable women.”

              Guys may want to have sex with a really hot women, but will often have sex with a woman who’s nowhere near hot.

              ” So say I’m a guy and I want sex. What percentage of women “out there” would I be willing to have sex with?”
              Upwards 75% of women childbearing age who look halfway decent?

              “I’m guessing it’s a pretty low percentage if you count every single woman I encounter. Remeber that Seinfeld episode where Jerry said that 90% of people are “undateable”? ”
              Undateable =/= unfuckable

              “That’s probably generous. If women were more assertive and guys had more opportunities for sex, I think they would find themselves turning down sex a lot, just like women do, because they just don’t find the women in question attractive enough to them personally.”

              You’re assuming men would do what you or a lot of women would do. That’s just an assumption, and I’m not sure what it’s based on. Listen to what men say. I’ve heard men say in moments of honesty their desire was to have sex with a lot of women, and they equate sex with a lot of women as having a good life. That leads me to believe if they had the chance they would follow through on their dream. Men come to this very site and talk about women like women are flavors they want to taste, women are ice cream, chicken nuggets, thanksgiving meals, etc.

              “I guess I just find it odd when guys complain that “women can go in a bar and ask any random guy for sex and he’ll agree” — first, I don’t think that’s true,”
              Lol…
              Random, NSA sex…Men’s dream come true.

              ” and second, even if it is true, who really wants to do that?”
              Men! 😀

              ” I mean, walk outside and really look at all the women you see. Would you have sex with just any of them?”

              Do you really want men to answer that? lol

              “I said in an earlier comment that women want quality sex but I think men want quality sex too, it’s just that quality sex for men may simply depend on how physically attractive the woman is, whereas women look more for an emotional connection (even in hookup situations). But both men and women feel frustration about their inability to find quality sex with attractive partners (even if we may use different criteria sometimes)”

              Fair enough, I suppose.

              “I guess what I’m saying is that women also feel sexual frustration, disappointment and rejection, especially women who are less attractive and don’t have many opportunities. Once you’ve had a couple 2 am hookups with desperate drunk guys who really don’t give a crap about you and aren’t even really attracted to you, and never want to talk to you again, the experience isn’t worth repeating.”

              Well, I would tell a girl not to do it. We women don’t have to give men everything they want. I think the hard truth is that most of the time when boy meets girl, he just wants to have sex and then move on. Guys just aren’t that into relationships esp. this day an age (they don’t have to be in one to get kitty anymore) and esp guys under 45,50 years of age. This may sound awful, but stories like that make me things it’s cool for women to make an exchange. If a man wants me, he has to give me something- dinner, jewelry, etc. Or more women need a 90 day rule.

            • You are too funny. Now go away before women start taking your advice and messing up my good thing.

            • Idby:

              Nope… ; )

            • @Alice….

              “Guys just aren’t that into relationships esp. this day an age (they don’t have to be in one to get kitty anymore) and esp guys under 45,50 years of age. This may sound awful, but stories like that make me things it’s cool for women to make an exchange. If a man wants me, he has to give me something- dinner, jewelry, etc. Or more women need a 90 day rule.”

              First, yes men are no longer into relationships anymore. Why? The relationships just are not worth all the grief and aggravation. The sex goes away because as soon as the woman is not getting what she wants, when she wants it …….she is done. What man need that shit.

              Second, and your final comment supports this: women see themselves as goddesses worthy of perpetual worship and adulteration. Well, guess what? You’re not. So, get the damn teirra off your head! You are ordinary and average just like most men and women.

              As men our standards of attractiveness for sex is lower than women. Yes, I would have sex with a woman that I would not date. However, women too have sex with men whom they would never consider dating. It happens all the time! The sole requirement is the man be attractive (however she defines it).

              I am not sure what ax you’re trying to grind. But, when women come to the realization that most of you are average, perhaps things will change. Average as in 7-8 NOT 5. A ten/dime is: Salma Hayek, Giselle Bundchen, Angela Bassett, Catherine Zeta-Jones. Unfortunately, most women feel they are 10s. Not the case.

            • Jules:

              Oh I get it, I implied that men should have to do something to have sex with a woman, whether that be wait or give her something material. I understand, you are probably very offended by the idea that you should have to do something to have sex with a woman? Women should be cool with men using them then tossing them aside like a used tissue, and they shouldn’t even want anything material in return.

              “First, yes men are no longer into relationships anymore. Why? The relationships just are not worth all the grief and aggravation. The sex goes away because as soon as the woman is not getting what she wants, when she wants it …….she is done. What man need that shit.”

              As usual, the bottom line is sex. A lot of women aren’t into having sex when they are angry, unlike a lot of men. Ever thought about trying to see what the problem is instead of trying to…have sex?

              “when women come to the realization that most of you are average”
              Umm…I never said anything about what percentage of the population was average or otherwise. I just said men aren’t that picky about who they sex up.

              “I am not sure what ax you’re trying to grind.”
              I don’t. But I calls ’em as I sees ’em.

              “You are ordinary and average just like most men and women.”
              O I’m neither!

            • @Jules:

              I had to google speedy 30…O wow that’s pretty expensive. I would have done whatever they did for a pair or two of Colin Stuarts!

              “Yes, I am offended that I have to essentially pay you for sex. Just as you as a woman do not want to feel the pressure of having to dish out sex as an obligation, I do not want to feel I have to dish out $$$ as an obligation for sex.”

              I dont really have a problem with having sex out of “obligation.” I understand that men have higher sex drives, and sometimes I’ll be having sex when I’m not in the mood.

              Both parties get what they want, whether it be sex or a handbag. What’s the problem?

              “Why can’t our sexual relations be on respect and mutual appreciation for one another.”

              But a lot of times its not about those things, its about the guy getting another notch on the belt, especially if it’s a casual encounter.

            • Jules –

              I asked a few female friends what they thought their number was recently.
              My oldest friend said she was a 10. In my opinion she is a 6.
              My newest friend said she doesn’t like to define because its different for everyone. What she thinks is a 10, I think is a 7.

              Im wondering what my male friends reactions will be. Im going to ask and get back to you.

            • Well you paint a nice world we live in, Alice! Frankly, if guys out there are thinking of me as a piece of turkey, I think I’ll pass on the sex. :-)

            • Sarah:

              ‘Alice! Frankly, if guys out there are thinking of me as a piece of turkey, I think I’ll pass on the sex.”
              Good thinking!

            • @Alice..

              “As usual, the bottom line is sex.”

              Yes, and as usual for women it is $$$$ or material stuff. OK. Here is your fucking Speedy 30. Happy now! Btw, in the past two years, I have purchase 5 of these bags for women. I will not mention the shoes.

              Yes, I am offended that I have to essentially pay you for sex. Just as you as a woman do not want to feel the pressure of having to dish out sex as an obligation, I do not want to feel I have to dish out $$$ as an obligation for sex.

              Why can’t our sexual relations be on respect and mutual appreciation for one another. If I like a woman, respect her and appreciate her, she gets treated well. Always. But so many women these days think they are entitled to that damn Speedy 30. No way!

            • @Sarah….OK. Now I am confused.

              You said you were in a “great” relationship. However, your man does not care a rats ass about your career or education. He loves that you love sex…He likes that you make a great buck so he does not have to pay your freight…And you’re not “settling?”

              So, just what is so great about this relationship? Sounds like to me if you were not a sexually charged woman, he would not be around. Not to offend, but I am thinking like the typical man.

            • @Jukes, what I was trying to explain is why some successful, highly educated woman, like the women you mentioned, might get angry or bitter about their inability to find a guy who is compatible with them intellectually and career-wise. you interpret it as women not wanting to marry “down” in terms of money or status. That is sometimes true but from my personal experience it is more about basic compatibility.

              Then I said that I went through an angry stage but I don’t complain any more because I came to terms with the fact that most men don’t care about that kind of compatibility. No man has ever chosen to be with me because I’m smart or successful. They just don’t care about that. In fact, those things are liabilities. There are probably tons of men who never asked me out because they thought I was too smart. There are men who DID ask me out then complained that I was too smart. I recall one guy actually saying “you’re too smart for a girl” then he was upset when I refused a second date with him. He basically told me that he was willing to overlook this flaw I had — my intelligence — and still see me because he was attracted to me. Yuck.

              The thing is, and this is what I’d say to your female acquaintences who are frustrated with dating, men care about sexual attraction and a basic nice personality. There isn’t a single man I’ve ever dated who gave a rat’s ass about my career or education. That’s just the truth.

            • Archy…I guess I want to ask – and related to the issue that Sarah has raised before upthread – is, even if we accept the premise that men want sex more than women, and that therefore women are the ‘gatekeepers,’ do you not also understand that there are a whole load of other factors which also make it very difficult for women to ‘just go out and have casual sex.’ These include greater liability to STD’s, insecurity about birth control, not knowing if the guy you will hook up with with put on a condom, having to get into a big argument with him about it, chances of getting a UTI or a yeast infection, not necessarily being sure that he will be happy to respect any sexual limits you have, the not entirely way-out possibility of violence (ranging being persuaded or otherwise to go past your limits in a way that feels violating to more extreme examples), being made to feel like a whore when its over, slut-shaming and the potential damage to your reputation and purported value etc. Women in this society have their sexuality very seriously controlled. These are just some of the ways. It’s not as simple as ‘any woman can just go and get sex any time she wants.’ Really, it’s not.

            • You do realize I said it was easier for women vs men, not easy? I know it’s not easy for either gender, but I do believe women will have an easier time finding casual sex IF they want it than a man. If she says Ok, today I want some casual sex, I will ask someone for it then I’d guess that she will have a higher success rate than the equivalent male would. I understand there are things holding people back like slut shaming, fear of having kids, stis, etc.

  7. gsc_boss says:

    Random_Stranger you are right on the money. It’s a bit disingenuous to leave out that glaring gap between male and female sexuality. Sure women love sex just as much, and sure some women think about it, but on the whole, it doesn’t permeate as frequently as it does for men.

    In addition, while some men are coming to the realization that sex is a collaboration rather than something to be won against a partner, most men are still in the Game/PUA territory/Nice Guys looking for tokens/outside the sexual dance. And let’s not forget that most women come to the table with a lot of cultural baggage. She’s thinking, will I look slutty? Will he think I’m easy? Will I get a reputation? Etc.

    I had my first orgasm at 21. I had been sexually active for 5 years. I was so angry at the world (my mom who was very sex positive, friends, boyfriends, anyone who could have told me what my genitals do!) that I will not make the same mistake with a daughter.

  8. I really think that it isn’t that women want sex less or have less desire than men. I believe culture has a lot to do with keeping women’s desires on the down low. I am open about my own, I don’t feel like I should have to hide that I am a sexual being, enjoy sex, and crave it on a regular basis. However, this means that I had many people, even friends, who questioned my integrity or the integrity of my relationships. My boyfriend is fine with me being open, but he has had people make comments to him about me while I am not around. It’s as if people think that if he doesn’t do enough, that I’m apt to cheat on him. He does not believe them, thankfully.

    However, I do have some desires that I do not share with others, my boyfriend included. I crave variety too, but again, I feel that if many people knew that, then I’d be branded a whore instead of people saying “hey that’s normal.” It may be normal for guys, but women aren’t supposed to want sex outside of a relationship. Heck, we aren’t supposed to want sex even in a relationship.

    I think that the overall cultural messages about women’s sexuality comes from the fact that women are the childbearers. Having unprotected sex generally results in a pregnancy, and for many women, this is incredibly costly. Historically, having a child out of wedlock meant complete destitution for the woman and her child. Suppressing women’s desires could have been some protection against destitution for the woman, and it could have guaranteed her future husband a known heir. Humans couldn’t test for paternity. Suppressing the desires of “women of marriageable status” meant that if they didn’t enjoy sex, then they would be only having sex with their husband out of duty, and any resulting child would be his. He would have an heir, and assuming that heir is male, then any wealth and property would be given to that heir.

    Had the woman had sex with another man, then the paternity of the resulting child would come into question, and so would any wealth and property that the family owns. It might also bring into question any other children, since a woman who enjoyed sex with other men could not really guarantee her husband a true heir, and any money or property the family had would soon dissipate. It would bring destitution and shame upon the whole family.

    Now that women have control over when they have children and we can test for paternity, the idea that women have no desires needs to change. Women have plenty of desire. We haven’t been open about it.

    • The reason others are telling your boyfriend to be careful is very simple AND Reasonable. The sexual opportunity to cheat/cuckold for even an average looking woman is immense. And you have a thing for variety to boot! Only extremely high status men have the privilege (think Tiger Woods) that you take for granted.

      Would you find it odd if people, knowing your boyfriend was a UFC fighter, weighed 275lbs, and had a temper, were worried about him being physically abusive? Nope.

      And technology is not the answer unless it is a technology that changes the fundamental power advantage women have in procuring sex,compared to men.

      • QuantumInc says:

        Presumably the change would be more a question of culture, not really technology. Women seek out casual sex a lot less. The reason it’s easier for a women to find a guy is because she would have so little competition on that particular marketplace. However women do feel a ton of competition and insecurity when it comes to finding a long term partner, or even a partner that could actually satisfy them. Actually at that point women have the same fears of a cheating partner. Learning of his second family would be just as tough as learning of her cuckoldry.

        • Competition is not what makes it easy for women to get casual sex from men. Women get casual sex easily because the male requirements are very easy to meet for most women.

    • Steph:
      You hit upon a key idea: that men want assurances of the paternity of their child. If you look at the middle east, you hear constant bemoaning of the state of women in these areas.

      What this ignores is that the state of men (in strict terms of threat of harm and survivability) is much worse. I remember reading in Iraq, armed men posing as police would stop men. If they had the wrong suffix on their name this would denote which branch of muslim they belonged to, and the ones the thugs didn’t like would be killed.

      In a culture in which men have dozens to maybe a hundred times the risk of being assaulted tortured and murdered (which would be maybe 20 times the risk a woman would have), then it follows men need some kind of small reward for that risk–like maybe that the baby he is risking his life for is actually his.

      It follows that as men’s safety improves, so does women’s free reign of sexuality.

      However, I would point out that men still have a very high chance of raising another man’s baby in the west. I think we should have mandatory paternity testing of children at birth.

      • Mandatory paternity stops cuckoldry, but it won’t do jack to stop hypergamy and that is the much bigger problem.

    • @Steph

      I think you’re 100% correct. Women’s sexuality has been so heavily tied to child-bearing that women’s desire has been on the backburner, stigmatized even, for incredibly long. Women, like men, have sexual desire. Why is that such a scandal to people.

      Sexual desire doesn’t make anyone a bad person. Promiscuity doesn’t necessarily make anyone brave or not brave, and it certainly doesn’t make someone an adrenaline junky. Promiscuity CERTAINLY doesn’t make someone power hungry, looking to objectify the next victim. We have to pay close attention to the “Sex as Collaboration” sub-heading, for how can you be objectifying people for power when it in fact is (aside from rape) a collaboration? If two people want to have sex with each other, so be it. It’s teamwork: please and be pleased.

      • Why is is such a scandal to people the men have more sexual desire than women?

        Objectification example 1. Girl sleeps with you to make another guy jealous.
        Objectification example 2. Woman on OK cupid only dates men who earn 6 figures.
        Objectification example 3. Man closes his eyes and has sex with a woman while thinking of porn star.

        • QuantumInc says:

          The idea that men have a greater sex drive is a central part of an ideology that insists that women who have too much sex are horrible sluts who deserve shame, ridicule, and to be frequently raped. If you ever see the term “rape culture” it is a related concept. Re-read the original post, he talks about the commodity model of sex and how mainstream culture teaches it.

          The fear I think is that if we accept that women are less sexual than men, then we might slip back into rape culture/commodity model. There’s certainly a slippery slope fear going on. But if women have less sexual desire, then how much less is that anyway? If the difference is large it is easy to imagine the commodity model, i.e. men trading romance, commitment, or material goods for sex, and maybe even rape arising to deal with the many instances where the guy wants it but the girl does not.

          So maybe it’s because women have less testorone, evolved to be different, or are just less horny; or maybe it’s because in a patriarchal society male sexuality is given a free pass but people are still cautious about female sexuality, and over time that influences our whole understanding of sex.

          • “Slut” derives from people’s collective observations about the characteristics and sexuality of promiscuous women, not from theories about higher male lust. It’s the ugly sexual habits of addicts, self absorbed celebrities, prostitutes, porn stars, strippers and mistresses that mostly give “sluts” their bad name

            And our commodity model doesn’t create our sexuality, our sexuality creates our commodity model. In other words if women were viewed as more sexual than men, we still would not see sex workers become predominantly male. Culture is not destiny!

          • Women are just a sexual as men in my opinion. The difference is women want good sex while men desire sex. So, if you believe most women when they say most men are terrible in bed (I have no reason to question them on this assertion), it stands to reason that women will seek out men who can provide her with good sex.

            This is why I believe (and data exist to support my view) women have far more sexual partners, on average, over a lifetime than men. One, getting sex is easier for women than men. Secondly, women will keep having sexual partners until they discover the man who can provide them with good sex. This might not be a man they would even consider dating.

            • Quadruple A says:

              The difference is women want good sex while men desire sex. This is not true. Sex and good sex are categorically different things. Men want good sex just as much as women.

            • Exactly. In addition what men and women define as “good” is very different.

            • 1. It is mathematically impossible for heterosexual women to average more heterosexual partners than men.

              2. And once again, women do not focus on how good a guy is likely to be in bed when choosing partners. Women are interested in other attributes which is why high status males have so much sex. It is not because these high status men are such great lovers.

            • It is emphatically not mathematically impossible for women to average more heterosexual partners than men.

              wA partners with mA
              WA partners with mB
              wB partners with mA
              wB partners with mC

              wA: 2 partners
              wB: 2 partners
              Total: 4 partnerships over 2 women: 2.00 partners on average

              mA: 2 partners
              mB: 1 partner
              mC: 1 partner
              Total: 4 partnerships over 3 men: 1.33 partners on average

              QED

              (Edited to remove violation of commenting policy on personal attacks.)

            • Ummm. Are you from alaska? Men don’t outnumber women 3 to 2 so your example is crap.

            • The point is it is mathematically possible.

              Also just Google it. It is very clear from research that women have more sexual partners over a lifetime than men. I actually think the data for women is low as women tend to understate their number while men overstate theirs (macho/stud effect). Men just do not have easy access to sex like women.

              The tip of the iceberg is athletes, actors, and other high profile men. But, the same exist on college campuses today. The young women are sexing only 10%-20% of the guys.

            • No Jules that’s not the point. 3 dudes to 2 chicks is not a representative sample and thus not valid.

            • Soullite says:

              That depends.

              When saying ‘the average male’ or ‘the average female’, are they averaging out all sexual partners and dividing by the entire population? Or do they attempt to find the mode – that is, the number of partners the average male or female has had, as opposed to the average number of partners across the entire gender.

              It is entirely possible that the ‘average’ female has more partners than the ‘average’ male, even if the average number of partners across both genders as a whole must be the same.

              This is what, 7th grade math?

            • Your math is horrible.

              Multiple women sex the same man. If you look around, I am willing to be a disproportionate number of men get a disproportionate amount of sex. It’s like the 80/20 rule.

              It is estimate that nearly a third of males in America are involuntarily celibate.

            • Jules
              Of course, but distribution is different from average. Your understanding of math is horrible.

            • If you say so. Suit yourself.

              I am in a friends with benefit situation with two women. About to add a third. So, clearly it is not a 1:1 ratio.

              My point is the data is NOT normally distributed about the mean. It is skewed!

              You have admitted as much yourself by asserting that these high income/high status men are getting more women anyway. Right?

            • Yup high value hetero men get more hetero women, so when one averages in the low status hetero men who aren’t getting any, the average number of partners ends up being roughly equal between the sexes. Do you finally understand?

            • Let’s say there’s an lonely island with 5 men and 5 women on it. 2 lucky men both had sex with all 5 women, the remaining 3 men didn’t get laid at all. Accordingly the 5 women each must have had sex with the 2 lucky men. The average (arithmetic mean) of partners must be the same for both men and women. On average every islander had 2 partners.

              In the real world there are bisexual people and the number of men and women is not exactly equal. Still the average number of life time partners should be roughly the same for women and men. But the distribution can be different. I suppose the distribution for men is flatter with longer tails, that is there are more men than women with a lot of partners but also more men with very few or none.

            • Not all people get laid, not all people get a lot of partners, some people get a lot of partners. Here’s the kicker, not all partners are of the opposite sex! There could be more female-female partnerships vs male-male which would skew the results in favour of women having more partners.

            • Yup. Which is why I explicitly said “heterosexual” and implicitly suggested a representative population sample i.e. half women, half men.

  9. So women are just more picky than men?
    Or at least gay men. I mean its difficult to compare female beauty and male handsomeness but we can compare sexual interest of gay men and straight women towards the same men.

  10. A woman can find a male partner for sex with little effort. Go up to a random dude on the street, ask for sex and you’re probably going to be in bed with him in minutes.
    A man will never have that power of total control of sexual pursuits. So men shame women to think that kind of behavior is wrong, when most men would do the exact thing all the time if it worked for men as it does for women.
    I think women do value quality sexual experiences over sheer volume, so they are not motivated as much to seek out sexual encounters with anyone who is available at any given time. But men find greater pleasure in the conquest, in the ego boost from being granted access to sex that it makes the allure of the hunt very enticing. Sex becomes a reward, a prize, so it becomes a competition, and when a man is frequently rewarded he comes to the conclusion that he is elite, superior to his competition, and it makes him feel stronger. It does not matter if a guy screws 100 girls and every one of them thought the sex was bad. He is still a “stud” by virtue of having been granted that access 100 times regardless of the quality of the experiences.

    • Imagine the day std’s are gone and we had 100% effect birth control in a n easy method….there could be so much sex going on! I know I’d definitely be far more relaxed. Most of my fear with sex is pregnancy and not being in a place of my life to afford raising a kid financially or emotionally, risk-free sex could be very beneficial to me but with the current risks I would need to ensure it’s safe sex and hopefully find a partner who doesn’t want kids yet. I’m guessing this is a risk many women feel nervous about as well.

      • Archy,
        Technology increases hypergamy it doesn’t democratize sex. The nymphomaniac pill is centuries away.

        • Can you elaborate, please? I don’t follow you.

          • Typical reproductive/sexual technology increases the power and control for women, not men. More power & control for women =/= buckets of poon for the average male though that’s the hollow promise that the feminists make.

            When through science disease prevention is full proof and birth control is cheap and when through feminist cultural engineering female promiscuity stigmas decrease, and monogamy ideals lessen, the result is a concentration of sex opportunity into the hands of fewer and fewer high status males. Deregulated female sexuality is as bad as a deregulated banking industry.

            The primate in women makes them natural groupies.

            • Thanks. Now I follow you.

              Well, you certainly have a different bent on things. I think reproductive technologies (more effective birth control) as well as improved medical solutions to most STDs & STIs has given women more freedom and confidence to be sexual. In essence, the risks are lower for women to explore and enjoy sex. I find zippy wrong with that aspect of things. This deregulated female sexuality as you call it is a positive, in my opinion.

              Let’s face it, monogamy sucks all around. I sucks for men and it also sucks for women. Yes, I will concede that high status males are the biggest winners. But, they are the biggest winners only as it pertains to enjoying a long term relationship.

              What I have discovered is women will sex any many they find attractive and likable, regardless of race, status……If he is deemed attractive, the average women in America will fuck him, period. Does money impact attractiveness. Yes, for some women. I really depends. Women will fuck men whom they would not even consider dating. They simply find him physically attractive……

              When it comes to being in a relationship, here is where the high-status males win hands down. Why? Because, while women have made significant progress in all aspects of our society, they still have not changed their number one requirement that the male be a provider. So, number one for a woman is $$$$. This is the case even for high income/high status females. They too want a man that is higher up than themselves.

              Hence, while women will fuck down on the status ladder, it does not apply when it comes to long term partners. So, we have to distinguish between those men the average woman will fuck as oppose to those men the average woman desires as a lifetime partner. They are usually quite different. A low status male can cartainly get in the game and win! But he will only win as far as sex is concerned. He stands little change for any type of serious or long term relationship.

              As for the natural groupies thingy, it is very apparent to me that women just do not care if the man they are screwing is also doing several other women too. They could care less. Whether this is natural or not I am not quite sure.

              I am one of these men who is having a grand old time out here. I love the situation. I am a beneficiary of this new female sexuality. But, I must also say I find very few of these women to be lifetime partner prospects.

            • You have it backwards.

              Women will marry men of lower value than they capable of dating, they will date men of lower value than they are capable of fucking, they will fuck men of lower value than are capable of servicing and they service the highest value men of all.

              Yes likable and attractive men do well with women in the current climate, but lets not forget what attractive and likeable means to women… perceived status i.e. confidence, dominance, income, height, age, rank among other men.

              Do you have 8’s and 9’s throwing themselves at you? Cuz I don’t. I get them, but it’s work.

      • Yeah, Archy. Most of my fear is STDs. There is birth control and abortion is always an option as a woman. But is one night of pleasure really worth a potentially life long STD? Not a good idea to have sex with a stranger. With STDs, there’s not only the physical problems, but the social stigma. I’ve had casual sex in the past and gotten lucky, but it’s just not worth it anymore…better do it with someone you know and trust.

        • Quadruple A says:

          I totally agree that STD’s is one of the biggest inhibitors of casual sex much more than it is acknowledged. I even suspect that STD’s are nature’s way of trying to curb promiscuity not as punishment from God but as a way to increase mate selectivity. Consider how stress and STD symptoms are aligned- people want to use sex to relieve stress but then those pesky symptoms start up.

      • While the fear of STDs and STIs is very real and serious, I still see so many women putting themselves at risk with men. As soon as a lot of women enter into a committed long-term relationship, they cease practicing safe sex. That’s crazy! You are still sleeping with that person’s prior sex partners……

        Also, not as many people practice safe sex as we think. I think more people say they do so than actually do so. There is a lot of risk taking going on outside of Hollywood.

  11. Alberich says:

    This article is weird. Obviously it is OK to want sex if the person you want to have sex with wants to have sex with you. Then your desire gets validated at least by them, as it is useful for them.
    For the question if it is OK to want sex the way more important cases are:
    1.You don’t know if the person you desire wants to have sex with you.
    2.You know that the person you desire doesn’t desire you.
    “I was thinking about concepts that the PUA community would dub “Demonstrations of Higher Value” – evidence that would convince women that I was “worthy” of being given sex… because it wasn’t like there were that many women who just liked sex for it’s own sake, right?”
    For a man looking for sex the question, if there are many women who just like sex for it’s own sake, is of little relevance. The crucial question is if he can find women who would like having sex with him and hence if he is seen as desirable. Guys don’t jump through hoops to prove their worthiness, but because no woman tells them upfront that she finds them desirable.
    By the way it is not as if society doesn’t judge sexual desire, tell anybody you are a pedophile (not a child molester). Or even tell people you are a sixty year old guy who is into 18 year olds.

    • Quadruple A says:

      I agree. The article is weird because it’s obvious that men aren’t taught to think that sex is not okay in a relationship. The sophistry of this article isn’t surprising given that the author is kind of PUA who’s tagline is “helping nerds get the girls” It is ironic, dubious, and a little bit strange that somebody who tells men how to “get” the girls would then write an article about commodifying women. You can expect plenty of dishonesty, faux- feminism, and sophistry in the commercialized world world where “sex positivity” and PUA meet.

    • Seconded, the article is weird. This is what you get when you freely mix PUA concepts with a dose of feminism and big chunks of self help, think positive advice . It might be good at first but leaves a weird taste in your mouth.

  12. WONDERFUL article. I’ll definitely be checking out your website. :)

  13. IDBY….a lot of your comments (ok, almost all of them) come off to me as extremely resentful of female sexuality and sovereignty. Why is it so upsetting to point out that yeah, women like sex to? Why do you focus so hard on the monogamy model of human relationships, and act as if it’s a default?

    • Not resentful of female sexuality at all. I’m resentful of the buckets of conscious and subconscious lies that too many women tell men about female sexuality. Even the simple phrase “women like sex” is it’s own special kind of lie. What do you mean by sex? What do you mean by like?

      Assuming you are female, If you like sex so much why don’t you go bang one of your neighbors tonight? And another one tomorrow. Ya see, I like sushi. And so guess what I’m having for dinner tonight with my friends? And I’ll probably let the chef pick the rolls because I really like sushi, not just shrimp tempura and rice, or tuna and rice.

      • Well, I can agree with you that many women are indeed less than forthcoming about sex. Bottom line is there is nothing you or me can do about it except to be aware of it.

        I certainly feel you. My ex wife once said she loved “making love to me.” We were having sex less than 10 times a year. Obviously, she was just lying. Unfortunately, too many women do the same thing when it comes to sex.

        Most men are viewed as unattractive by most women. So, most women (even if they are unattractive too) feel entitled to enjoy sex with the very best men. So, I think what often happens is these average women end up marrying these “unattractive” men, by default. They simply could not get on of the top shelf men because they were average. Remember, most women genuinely feel that are way above average. Note how Sarah above considers an average women as a 5 out of 10. An “F” basically. A woman who is really ugly!

        The unlucky man who is terribly unfortunate to become a husband to one of the average women often ends up being sexually neglected. Why? She really does not desire him. Her real sexual desire is for the most attractive man.

        So, I think this is HOW the “lies” come into play. Hence, it is for this reason that monogamy is a terrible option for men.

    • Soullite says:

      Resentment’s occur in situations of perceived inequality. They will always occur in situations of perceived inequality. Rather than trying to shame people about their resentments, you’d do well to fix the system that causes these underlying resentments. Resentment is just another word for the broader emotion of jealousy. It exists to force us to leave situations in which we are being taken advantage of. It is not some evil trick of the devil, it is simple human evolution.

      Feminists tampered with a system that worked – the system of marriage and child rearing. It wasn’t perfect, but it did work. They assumed that they could change only the aspects of that system bothered them without causing any harm to society in general. Then, when that turned out not to be true, they went about the work of rationalizing these results away.

      Now we have a system where women are free to pursue their most base instinct – hypergamy, the tendency of women to seek men of the highest social status possible. By granting them true sexual autonomy, the cost of using sex to secure these relationships plummeted. As a result, women will sleep with men who would never actually consider them for a relationship, while ignoring the ones that would because they are lower in status than the men who are willing to sleep with them. This leaves a lot of men relatively sexless, and given the biological urge/necessity of procreation, that causes truly massive levels of resentment. You won’t fix that by trying to shame resentful men into shutting up.

      You only fix that by fixing it. Slut shaming existed for a reason, like it or not. That was the way civilization found of keeping hypergamy in check. Society will not function unless men buy into it. The cost of men buying into society is a family. The only way to ensure that men have a realistic shot at a family is by preventing bigamy, and the only sure-fire way of preventing even defacto bigamy is to shut hypergamy down. Fifty years ago, some 20-year old sleeping with a 50-year married rich guy would be a social pariah. Now she’s just making a legitimate lifestyle choice. That is how hypergamy came to dominate again.

      The problem with that is that young men who never buy into a society will come to lash out at it.

      • Very interesting perspective, indeed.

        “Feminists tampered with a system that worked – the system of marriage and child rearing.”

        The system worked for men but I am not sure it really worked for women. This is very important to discovering the root cause(s) of the changes in our society.

        Now, as far as who a women sleeps with it is quite simple. Women will only sleep with men whom they deem attractive and likable. Obviously for some women $$$$ and the man’s social status does indeed matter. However this is for some women, though not all. I would argue that it is untrue for the majority of women as far as just sex is concerned.

        Women have men whom they consider strictly lovers/fuck buddies. Here the only requirement is physical attraction. Social status is unimportant for the woman. She is only seeking good sex from this man. In most cases the guy is not even a man she would consider dating.

        The second man women will seek out is the long term partner prospect. Here the bar is much higher. This is a man who MUST be likable, attractive, smart, cute, intelligent, financially stable…..all the things women now demand (“The List”). High status males have a considerable advantage. Low status males are shunned. totally. Even males who are not low status are deemed inferior.

        I do not see anyway you can shut down hyper gamy. It’s roots are not in feminism. Women just naturally gravitate towards men who can support and provide for them. With an ultra materialist and narcissistic culture, we have the recipe for disaster.

        Young men can lash out all they wish. However, that will not solve the problem.

        Women need to change their thinking. I am shocked at the number of women who refuse to marry down, even if they are high earning females. They certainly do not mind screwing a low status man. But marriage is out, even if the man has all the great qualities to be a super husband, father…..Women will continue to chase after that elite 10%-20% of men.

      • Like a prophet.

  14. Quadruple A says:

    I don’t like the tone of this article. Is it even sex positive? There is something about it that I can’t put my finger on that is kind of abrasive and derogating. It doesn’t enthuse on the subject of sexuality as much as it attempts to shame men for feeling shamed about their sexuality. We assume that if men feel uncomfortable with their sexuality it must be because there doing something wrong such as “commodifying women”. Women do send message to men that make them feel uncomfortable about expressing and it is not necessarily men’s fault if they respond negatively to those messages.

    We can’t seem to get out this box when we discuss men where we automatically assume that men are the actors and women are the acted upon. Even in a male dominated society women can be the actors and men can be the acted upon. It is an unconscious form of gender policing to deny that reality- Men become essentialized as “actors” in their relationship to women and women become essentialized as the “acted upon.”

    This article is kind of misleading and I think its the deceptiveness of the article which is part of what I don’t like about the article. Society doesn’t really teach that women don’t like sex within a relationship which is what this article is about. (Although it sometimes teaches that there are differences in drive and the reasons for sex) Naturally, I assumed when I clicked on the article that it would be about causal sex. Society does teach us that women do not like casual sex as much as men and there is some evidence for that claim and society does make men feel like they should feel uncomfortable initiating casual sex and expressing sexual interest. I think we can discuss that subject intelligently and maturely without without making men feel like they are bad for feeling uncomfortable with their sexual desires.

  15. wellokaythen says:

    I think many people, if not most people, have sex for a mixture of reasons. Both men and women have the same reasons for having sex, but the specific mixture seems very different in most cases. Men want sex 80% because of A, 15% because of B, and 5% because of C, while women want 25% A and 50% B and 25% C. Maybe it all adds up to “wanting sex just as much,” but it sure looks different from the male perspective.

    I still find it hard to believe that women ON AVERAGE have just as strong a libido as men and fantasize about sex as much as men and pursue sex as actively as men do. At best maybe there are overlapping bell curves, but it doesn’t really add up in my experience. I would imagine if women and men had equivalent interest in sex, there would be a whole lot more prostitutes for women clients. There are probably more gigolos than I suspect, but are they really anywhere as numerous as female prostitutes?

    As I’ve said before, if women want sex just as much as men do, then that is very bad news for me when I look back on my past relationships. I must be the unluckiest man in the world to have found all those partners (okay, not a whole lot) who had a lower libido than me. I rolled snake eyes ten times in a row. Or, they must have been getting some on the side. Or, I was such a total turnoff that they’d rather go without then have sex with me. Maybe I’ve just been reassuring myself all these years by telling myself that women just don’t want it as much….

    • Were you giving them good sex?

      • Quadruple A says:

        How would you define dood sex?

      • Quadruple A says:

        Oops. How would you define “good” sex?

        • Usually it is orgasmic sex. Also, it is sex where the women actually is satisfied afterwards. It is sex that is genuinely pleasing to her.

          The problem is most men are not good at sex. Women, instead of voicing their displeasure, just go on to the next man. The adult, responsible, and proper thing to do is for her to communicate her dissatisfaction. However, women say this usually does not work as men take it personally. In essence, it bruises the male ego. So, it is much easier for her to find another guy you can provide her with good sex.

          Therefore, I stand by my original thesis: women desire good sex while men are happy with just sex. Talk to any woman and they will tell you the same.

          • Quadruple A says:

            “Usually it is orgasmic sex. Also, it is sex where the women actually is satisfied afterwards. It is sex that is genuinely pleasing to her.” Interesting. Is the orgasm itself the matter or the quality of sex necessary for orgasm? Men often orgasm but it isn’t necessarily good.

            “The problem is most men are not good at sex.” – Or women aren’t good at enjoying it. It depends on how you look at it.

            “Therefore, I stand by my original thesis: women desire good sex while men are happy with just sex.” – What premisses lead to this conclusion?

            • Alberich says:

              “Men often orgasm but it isn’t necessarily good.”
              Indeed, the most satisfying sex I can remember was when my partner had an intense (physically and emotionally) orgasm, whether I had an orgasm was of very little importance. Well I am a man, but are women that much different?
              ““The problem is most men are not good at sex.” – Or women aren’t good at enjoying it. It depends on how you look at it.”
              One could test which one is true by looking at homosexual pairings, unless being homosexual would have significant and different effects o the sexual performance on men and women.

          • What a crock. What bunch of having the cake and wanting to eat it too. My partner’s happy to have “just sex.” Infrequent, timid, passive, boring sex. It’s so shitty I hardly want to bother anymore. But, I’m just a man. What have I got to complain about as long as I have a hole to cum in once or twice a week?

            • I hope it’s clear, I think of women as being capable of so much more than that. It kills me when “just sex” is all that’s offered. I’ve had plenty of unsatisfying sex that involves both of us orgasming.

            • Have you tried talking to her about it? Maybe the two of you aren’t sexually compatible.

            • Quite a bit. No luck so far.

          • Soullite says:

            At some point, women need to take responsibility for their own orgasms. Most women I know refuse to even try masturbating during sex, under the philosphy that I should be doing everything for them. But the thing is, I only have two hands, at least one of which is used to hold onto them for leverage. And I don’t have a clit. I know from every hand-job I’ve ever received that members of the other gender aren’t terribly good with manual stimulation.

            When every partner a woman’s had is a bad one, that’s probably a good indication that she’s the problem.

            • some guy says:

              I think that’s completely true, about taking responsibility for your own orgasms. For both men and women.

            • Soullite:
              If I have to masturbate during sex, I can just skip the sex…

            • Wow! I think you confirm what leading sex experts are saying: too many women do not understand their own bodies and sexuality.

            • Who said anything about me not knowing my body or any other woman not knowing her body?

            • Some women do have to masturbate during intercourse to get themselves off. In case you did not know, and apparently you do not, only a third of women can experience orgasm through intercourse alone.

              Perhaps you are in that third of women who do not need help reaching orgasm during intercourse. But, as a woman, you should know this. Your reply above seems to indicate you do not.

            • Jules:

              Actually, I’m well aware of that fact. Once again, if I need to masturbate to get off i can just pass on the sex. I’m trying to say that if I have to masturbate to get off during sex there’s less incentive for me to have sex. I’m also trying to say this is probably a reason why women in general are less into the sex thing.

            • Women were not designed to masturbate and maneuver their genitals during intercourse. We must admit that is very easiy for men to get their orgasms, but it is not easy for women. Whether you realize or not, IT IS your job as the male lover to satisfy his partner.
              That is one of the biggest reasons women do not want to have sex and avoid it and make all kinds of excuses. It is just not worth the effort, when we know the man will not satisfy us. Oh yes, some women will tell you they want it all the time. There are exceptions to every rule, or she is lying or just has an unselfish lover, who makes sex satisfying. During sex, sometimes,the man is so busy getting his thrust on, that he forgets that thrusting alone does not help the woman to orgasm.
              What woman on this earth wants to stimulate her own body during sex, while the man’s genitals are being stimulated by her body? This is a very unfair expectation for women?

              For a woman to have to stimulate her own orgasmic places, would be like requiring the man to mastubate himself, during sex. How would that work for you guys?

            • i almost ALWAYS masturbate during sex. Even if he’s made me cum as well. The guy usually likes it.

            • When I am pleasing my partner and doing what I know he enjoys, is it wrong for me to expect for him to stimulate me in return. Someone, please let me know if this is right or wrong.

            • No it’s not. If I’m doing something that pleases my partner I would hope that they would do the same for me.

            • Jean….Might I ask roughly how old are you?

              A lot of women stimulated themselves during intercourse. I even encourage them to use their toys! I want her to be fully satisfied.

              Women need to speak up in bed. Only when you communicate to your man what gets you off will he know 100%. Otherwise, he is going to THINK all is well.

              When I was young and inexperienced, I thought ALL women loved to have their pussy liked, sucked,….So, I become an expert. Well, I stared dating a young woman who one afternoon I must have spent over an hour performing oral on her. However, she did not appear excited. So, I asked her was there a problem. She said, “I don’t really like oral sex. I love fingers and penises” So, you see, NEVER assume anything. ASK YOUR PARTNER WHAT HE OR SHE LIKES.

            • @Jules, you said…… “Wow! I think you confirm what leading sex experts are saying: too many women do not understand their own bodies and sexuality”

              I’d like to meet those leading experts.Who are they? Just because a woman does not completely know her body sexually, doesn’t justify requiring having her to masturbate herself during sex. How ludicrous! She might do well, to just go it alone. What would be the purpose of her man? Does anyone besides me, see what awesome hurdles we put in place for women to jump over?

            • @Jean…It is NOT a requirement for God’s sake!

              All I am saying is some women, especially young women, do stimulate themselves during intercourse. Recently, I was with a 28 yr old woman who loved to use her vibrator on her clitoris during intercourse. She had loud ear piercing orgasms. It was not my suggestion. It was her desire.
              She even stated that I was one of the few men who she felt comfortable asking if such was OK. Apparently other guys were not receptive.

            • Past is future says:

              I think the problem is that a man knows what he likes in bed and may assume all other men do too. Or he for whatever reason wants to justify that his way is the “right” way. In a sense, a woman who’s been with a number of men, might have a better general idea of male sexuality than some men, but be totally ignorant of what’s like for any particular man. I think the converse is true for most women. Obviously I’m talking primarily about hetero folks.

              With regard to masturbating during sex, I can’t recall being with a woman who didn’t enjoy it. I like masturbating myself during sex too. Obviously I can’t during intercourse. But, if you’re creative… there is lots of fun to be had. So, when I see posters getting all up in arms that touching oneself while with a partner… who gives shit. It’s their loss.

            • @Past:
              So, when I see posters getting all up in arms that touching oneself while with a partner… who gives shit. It’s their loss.

              Actually, Im not missing anything. I can stay home and be just fine. I don’t need sex like so many men seem to.

            • I would be concerned that if I suddenly started masturbating myself during sex, the guy in question would take it as a criticism his equal abilities. Better to show him how it’s done. That said, some men are willing to be patient and help me have an orgasm, and some aren’t. If a man really cares, he can learn. The ones who are bad and who can’t learn, don’t care enough to learn, in my experience. Could say the same about women learning blow job techniques, I suppose.

            • *sexual abilities, not equal abilities. Damn autocorrect!

            • some guy says:

              Ask your lover, “Would it turn you on to see me touching myself during sex?” I bet you’ll be rather flattered and pleased with the response.

            • How many guys under 50 go into sex thinking, “You know, I’ll probably have to masturbate myself to orgasm”?

              Lets just be honest…This is proving my point that theres just more to be gained from having sex for men than for women. Average guy under 50 knows he’s gonna orgasm during sex (vaginal, manual, oral) and not have to get himself off unless he wants to.

              If women

            • (sorry I’m not sure what happened)

              If women focused on orgasm as much as men, men would be getting laid even less than they are now.

            • Why can’t you just tell the guy what you want, when you want it, where you want it, and how you want it? That is what I ask women.

              Most women cannot orgasm through vaginal intercourse. They need some stimulation, either from him or her.

              Sounds like few women really know this?

            • “You go into sex assuming you’ll have to masturbate? And you’re a man? GIVE ME A BREAK. Sometimes men choose to masturbate themselves, but they dont have to, and they are not expected to.”

              ????? I am a guy. What exactly are you saying/asking?

              All I was saying is a lot of women do masturbate/stimulate themselves during intercourse. Or use toys to do the same. It is not a problem for me at all.

              Clear?

            • Jules:
              “Some women do HAVE TO masturbate during intercourse to get themselves off.” (emphasis mine)

              That does sound like you are saying it is a requirement, if the woman wants to have an orgasm…

              You said “I do” and I thought that meant you going into sex with the idea that you’ll probably have to masturbate to have an orgasm. I’m saying that’s most likely not true.

            • I do.

              It is important that I know a woman’s body. Not just know, but understand. It creates a much better sexual experience for both parties.

            • maturity is realising that people are different. talk and communicate. try it out if they don’t respond try something else. seriously if your ego bruises easily in this matter then you’ve got some more growing to do.
              its all about collaboration.

            • Jules:
              You go into sex assuming you’ll have to masturbate? And you’re a man? GIVE ME A BREAK. Sometimes men choose to masturbate themselves, but they dont have to, and they are not expected to.

              Unless you’re >50 this most likely is not true. Most men understand that all they have to do is bump and grind some and something will happen, even men who are older.

            • It might turn my partner on to see me stimulate myself, during sex, but if it does not stimulate me, is this right? It seems that one or two people here think it is proper for the woman to do all these things to satisfy her man, but for her man to nothing to satisfy her, while she touches her own body. I am confused!! Something about this doesn’t seem fair.

              Would it be okay if when two people have sex, the woman tells the man, instead of oral sex or vaginal sex, she wants to see him stimulate himself? Because as another writer put it, a person should know how to and be responsible for their own satisfaction. And what if the female expected her partner to do this often? To the person who suggested that women masturbate their own parts, would it be okay if women expected men to do that too?

            • Fair? What the hell does that have to do with anything?

              Jean, seriously. Lots of women stimulate themselves during intercourse. It is not just in the porn flicks. I even do it for her too. I all depends on the position….If a man is unselfish, he can get a woman off through intercourse. It takes longer and the man has to help..

            • @Jules, maybe I did not explain myself clearly.

              Let me put it to you this way. True incident: I hurt myself skating a little while back and my leg and knee are still healing. The sports medicine that is supposed to be rubbed, on the area, feels great when I can lay back in the chair and allow my mate to apply the medicine. It feels great. I could do it myself, but to get the full effect of the treatment, I allow my partner to place the medicine.
              Sex is not the same as a knee and leg injury, but the explanation yields the same message: A partner uses manual stimulation to help their partner achieve satisfaction without having to do it yourself.

            • @Jules, I enjoy discussions, but can we avoid using bad language?
              It would make the dialogue not go off in the wrong direction

            • My apologies for the bad language.

    • wellokaythen says:

      In response to what “Jean” wrote above:

      “Women were not designed to masturbate and maneuver their genitals during intercourse.”

      This has to be the most alarming, yet intriguing, “intelligent design” argument I have come across. I never saw anything like this mentioned in my private school’s creationist textbooks. I doubt this will appear in the Tennessee public school sex ed curriculum anytime soon. I simply MUST hear this explained in greater detail. For example, who or what designed the human body in this way? What was the purpose of making women so useless at pleasuring themselves during intercourse?

      How does this theory address the women who do, in fact, masturbate during intercourse? Perhaps they are doing something that the powers of the universe say is impossible or unnatural.

      Then again, people do this with technology all the time: using a device in ways that the inventor never intended but doing so quite successfully anyway.

  16. Quadruple A says:

    Can we get some sex positive articles by straightforward people that aren’t connected to the PUA movement? I really hope it is not as if the multi-million dollar PUA industry has a financial stranglehold on all articles that are written about sex on the internet because that would be a very sad world. Yet even many of the people who comment on these articles seem to be astroturfers pretending to be regular people but what they are doing is creating confusion.

    http://www.alternet.org/media/150049/corporate-funded_online_%27astroturfing%27_is_more_advanced_and_more_automated_than_you_might_think

  17. The other joke-but-not-really is that men are so horny and oversexed that they’d fuck spongecake if it was warm enough.”

    I think whats goin on here is that men have lower standards for looks than women do. I’ve seen guys go gaga over women I thought were mildly attractive or sometimes plain unattractive. They would think these girls were GORGEOUS and HOT. I’m just sitting there like eww that??? So that’s why sayings like that exist. If you put an OK looking girl in red lipstick, high heels, and skirt guys seem to go nuts. Plus, there are guys who admit they believe that p**** has no face.

    • But at the same time Alice men are supposedly so picky about women that we have a hand in the way a girl/woman can be constantly bombarded with messages about how she has to be “thin enough”, “curvy enough”, “light enough” (as in skin tone), etc… in order to be considered attractive enough to get a guy’s attention?

      So it’s this weird paradox where as guys we will have sex with anyone with a female body and contribute to body shaming/policing girls/women with various -isms.

      • It’s interesting when you compare porn (presumably targeted at men) and fashion magazines (presumably targeted at women). There’s a hell of a lot more variation (even without getting into the BBW segment) in female body types in the former than the latter.

        There’s probably less variation in the porn actor body types than there is in the actress body types, though (Ron Jeremy being the exception that proves the “should have six-pack” rule…).

        • It’s interesting when you compare porn (presumably targeted at men) and fashion magazines (presumably targeted at women). There’s a hell of a lot more variation (even without getting into the BBW segment) in female body types in the former than the latter.
          True.

          There’s probably less variation in the porn actor body types than there is in the actress body types, though (Ron Jeremy being the exception that proves the “should have six-pack” rule…).
          Jeremy became a big name in the porn industry because he fit one expectation that a lot of porn actors are held to so well that the other physical expectations on male porn stars were just waived. If Ron Jeremy weren’t packing as well as he is he would be just another of the countless faceless and nameless guys you see in porn. But overall I think the reason there is less variation among actors than actresses is because it’s aimed at heterosexual guys.

          • Danny:

            I think men really want the superhot girl, but will take less than that. Maybe women want to be favored, and not just another girl? Men really do act differently towards women that have whatever favored trait(s).

            With most male porn stars, I think a lot of the time unattractive men are purposefully chosen. Male hetero viewer sees super unattractive guy bang super hot girl. Guy thinks, “If she let that bang her, then she’ll let me bang her,too.” I think something similar happens in female oriented media.

            • some guy says:

              Kinda doubt it, at least on the male side. I’ve seen plenty of porn and that thought’s never crossed my mind.

            • some guy:

              Its not necessarily conscious…

              Danny:

              ideal type of women that one has to be with is breaking down (or more like fewer guys are buying into it).”

              For the record I don’t think a lot of men are all that choosy about who they sleep with, as far as an ideal type of woman.

            • some guy says:

              Your theory’s not necessarily true, either. I prefer porn in which all the people are attractive.

            • Maybe *you* do, but there’s a reason a lot of male porn stars look like the south end of a northbound donkey.

              This is what porno psychologists are doing in an attempt to sell porn to women…I have no reason to believe it hasn’t been going on in porn oriented towards men.

            • Correct. Men are not nearly so.

              Only the squeamish metro-sexual type men have all these nonsensical requirements such as size 2, bare, …..

              It is because for most men the average/typical women is good enough for sex.

            • I take it you mean “conventionally attractive” when you say “superhot”. In some cases you would be correct. But what I think is happening now is the programming that has guys believing that there is some ideal type of women that one has to be with is breaking down (or more like fewer guys are buying into it).

              With most male porn stars, I think a lot of the time unattractive men are purposefully chosen. Male hetero viewer sees super unattractive guy bang super hot girl. Guy thinks, “If she let that bang her, then she’ll let me bang her,too.” I think something similar happens in female oriented media.
              As a guy that watches porn and has talked to other guys that watch porn I don’t think that is often the case. The thought is to tune that guy out and imagine ourselves in the scene. There’s not much thought to hoping that we can have sex with a given woman just because that random guy is.

              I suppose you are thinking along the line that by having the women in porn have sex with unattractive guys it’s a lowering of the bar in hopes that we can imagine ourselves with those women. I really don’t think it goes that deep for a lot such guys (but I bet it does for some).

              Now as to why the guys in porn are unattractive there is one other line of thought. And that is the idea that guys in porn are unattractive out of fear of triggering a homoerotic feeling (this might give reason to why, at least in my experience, straight women are more likely to watch gay porn than straight porn).

            • double standard? says:

              So, fewer guys buying into conventional standards of beauty with regard to women is a good thing? But everyone here seems pretty on board with the idea that men/women in porn are unattractive? I don’t know what you’re watching, but I see people who are, for the most part, in better than average shape, with average or better looks.

              Individual preference, of course, dictates what you’ll find attractive, but is that what people are gettng at here?

    • “Plus, there are guys who admit they believe that p**** has no face.”

      It doesn’t. Some of the prettiest, wet, and fresh ones have been on unattractive women. Just saying.

    • wellokaythen says:

      “The other joke-but-not-really is that men are so horny and oversexed that they’d fuck spongecake if it was warm enough.”

      So negative about sex and sexual diversity. Don’t judge sex with a cake until you’ve had sex with a cake. Just call it a sex toy and pretend that the man is a woman instead and voila, it’s much more socially acceptable.

      Of course, a real man would only get involved with a cake he baked himself. Otherwise, you are having sex with every other person who made that cake and are just a cheap slut.

      [Moderators, please don’t make this into a Quote of the Day.]

  18. I have struggled with my love and desire for sex. Its been an ongoing battle for the last few years. I have had over 30 sexual partners and I’ve felt disgust at this number. The number is higher than I’d like it to be.
    Then to flip the coin, I also feel that I have quite a high sex drive, why is it such a big deal? do I have to be in a long term relationship to satisfy my sexual needs? even if I’m not that happy with it, just because I’m a woman? whats wrong with a casual sexual partner? I am finally comfortable with this need and plan on no longer making myself feel guilty for having a fuck buddy.
    At the age of 26 I am now ready to start considering someone for long term then marriage. Until now I was not emotionally ready or mature enough to have this type of relationship. I have had a 4 year relationship that I left because I had some personal issues i needed to deal with. Lets see how long this takes to find someone suitable and if my sexual history is a downfall on my part.

    • Good luck to you. Seriously.

      There is nothing wrong with a woman having a high libido. I wish there were millions more. I am a high libido man and have several FWBs.

      I eschew marriage and long term relationships. They have been detrimental to my enjoying a strong and healthy sex life. So, I have zero interest in either.

      Life is Good!

    • “I asked a few female friends what they thought their number was recently.
      My oldest friend said she was a 10. In my opinion she is a 6.
      My newest friend said she doesn’t like to define because its different for everyone. What she thinks is a 10, I think is a 7.”

      What you are going to probably discover is most women view other women as a 5-6. They view themselves as a 10. While there is nothing wrong with a healthy self image, objectively speaking most women are NOT a 10. Just saying.

      In contrast, most men view most women as a 7-8. I know I do. So for me, most women are attractive. So long as a woman is attractive and “normal” she is date-able in my books.

      • I don’t know, maybe this is a Millenial generation thing? I have always felt crappy about my looks (as a teenager, I though that I was hideous) and most women I know constantly beat themselves up about not being thin enough or hot enough. But then I’m Gen X and we are known for our angst and depression. :-) I’m definitely not a 10 and never have been. I might have been a 6-7 when I was 22. Now that I’m middled aged, 30 pounds overweight, and have some wrinkles, yikes, I’m probably like a 3!

        • Way too harsh on yourself.

          The point I am trying to make is women are far more discriminating than we men.

          I know you constantly argue we men go for the hottest women….I really is not so. Personally my ideal woman is: intelligent, great personality, kind, giving, compassionate, and high libido. However, unlike most women, I am willing to settle for just: great personality, kind, and high libido. Women want everything! Anything less is settling.

          Usually, women such as yourself have at some point dated or refused to date a great, loving, and caring man. Most of you tossed the guy without even giving him a date. Why? You THOUGHT he was not compatible. How would you know this if you don’t even date the damn guy? You don’t!

          The men you THINK you want do not make great lifetime partners or fathers. Alpha men especially.

          I have a FWB who is a pharmacist. She is 46. Has really unrealistic expectations. Complains about the guys feet. Complains about his hair. Complains about everything. She is never married and no kids. But she wants “someone to grow old with…” She still believes she is “HOT.”

          We have sexual attraction. We respect one another. She really likes me! But I consider her to be one of then most self-centered human beings on this earth.

          • IDK, as I’ve said in other comments, I’m average looking and it’s not like I’ve had tons of opportunities to reject guys because I have never had many guys pursuing me. In my younger years, I would date almost any guy who asked me out, at least once. I always thought, what the hell, I’ll see how it goes. Cuz I didn’t get many dates. :-) There are guys I dated a couple times, and they wanted to take it further, but I just wasn’t attracted to them. Usually that was based on personality. I’ve never been picky about looks or status or money, but I have to be able to connect emotionally and intellectually. If a guy has nothing to talk about then I lose interest quickly. The only guys I can think of who I rejected outright are strangers who have approached me and asked for my phone number or asked if I want to go get a drink or whatever. That didn’t happen often but when it did happen, it always freaked me out a little and I would almost automatically refuse just out of my fear of strange men.

            So, are women too picky — I suppose some are and some aren’t. Attraction is a tough thing; if you aren’t attracted to someone, you can’t will yourself into it. Guys have lots of preferences and even though women complain all the time about objectification and why are men so picky about looks and so on, I think we realize at some level that men won’t change. So women’s attractions are the same, it really isn’t conscious. That said, I agree that if someone is having trouble finding a partner, they may need to adjust their criteria and “settle”. Maybe “compromise” is a better word.

            I think we live in the Age of Narcissism and everyone now is raised to think that they are special and deserve the best of everything. Some people see relationships as lifestyle accessories, like buying a car. They want a list of features. They aren’t looking for human beings to connect with, they are looking for status symbols. PUA’s have built an entire industry around the idea that attractive women are lifestyle accessories/masturbation aids. And yes some women do it too though they are usually looking for someone who can provide money, status, expensive vacations etc.

    • If you are honest and up front with most guys about 30 partners you will lose lots of potential long term mates.

      • Whats the big deal? why is it such a big deal! its in the past…..
        Please explain to me. I can see that certain people may find it alarming, but men in general, why is it so bad?

        • Natty:
          I think what it comes down to is men want to be special, and they don’t want to be compared to other men. I’m guessing they may feel insecure being with a woman who is more experienced than they are.

          Buuut at the same time they think its cool for them to sample many women. The kicker is I’m sure most men would have sex with way more than 30 women if it was so easy.

          • While I cannot speak for all men, I will speak for myself on this one.

            I am a man who has exercised restraint in his life. I just turned 50 and have been with fewer than 10 women. I married a woman who had enjoyed more sexual partners and sex than me. It was a real problem for the marriage. She had done all the stuff I wanted to do. She had fucked her boyfriends on cruises…So, when we did our cruise there was hardly any sex…

            Now I have three FWBs and am literally fucking my ass off. Why? I feel I got the shaft in marriage for all those years and want to enjoy a healthy and fulfilling sex life. I care nothing about long term relationships. Have zero desire for one. All I care about is having great sex with several women. This is the very same thing many women have enjoyed such as Natty. What is good for the goose is also good for the gander? Fair?

            I felt my ex wife viewed me an undeserving/not desiring the sex she had done with her past lovers. This is the big damn rub. I divorced her over this. To this day she is heartbroken and cannot believe I left her over sex. Well I did.

            My wife was sexually used and abused in my mind. She had zippy left for me. This is how I felt about the matter. I know this might come across as rather harsh. But I am being totally honest about it. This is how a lot of men view this matter. I just have the balls to say it.

            There are married women who have told me they really do not think their husbands want the type of sex they gave their past lovers. Did they ask or try to find out? No. “Oh, he is not like that.” They now do not want to do the things they did for their prior lovers for their husbands. What arrogance.

            Having a high number of partners does matter. It is bound to create problems in a marriage to men who have less experience. I just don’t get women who want to deprive their husbands of sex but gave sex away to their prior lovers unconditionally. Their prior lover had free reign. Yet the husbands are often humiliated over sex.

            Just how I see it.

            • Jules:
              Have you ever asked her why?
              Maybe she wants a relationship thats less based on the physical.

            • Asked whom? Why? Why what?

            • Asked your wife why she wouldnt do those things with you?

            • My ex wife would barely have sex let alone “those things.”

              All I ever wanted was a healthy sex life of 2-3 times a week. I was not even asking for any blow jobs. She only wanted sex once a month always immediately after her cycle. It was like clockwork. And she only wanted one position, spooning. Never asked me what I wanted. Never gave a flying fig about what I desired.

              Was that asking for too much? She stated her drive had diminished after the birth of our son. But, she would not do anything for it. She would not seek medical help…

              Honestly, I really think my wife just did not enjoy having sex with ME. She only wanted sex when she was horny right after her period. However, like so many married women, they just conjure up so many excuses for not screwing their husbands. I think women are better served if they would just be honest and say as much. Let the man know so he can decide if he wants to be around. God, what is so hard about that?

              I never want to have anything to do with marriage or any other types of committed relationships. The only marriage I would consider is plural marriage or a formal harem. Anything else, forget it.

            • That sounds like a horrible situation in your marriage and I’m sorry you had to experience that. But I doubt it had to do with her having sex with a lot of guys in the past. Except insofar as her past promiscuity was the result of an underlying psychological issue and then she simply flipped to the other extreme as a result of the same hangups. For example, maybe she had sex with a lot of guys when she was younger because she was deeply insecure and seeking validation, then she regretted it later but was still deeply insecure about her sexuality, and now guilt stricken as well. I’m just speculating. In other words, it may be correlation, not causation.

            • Jules–I have to ask. Did you ever initiate sex or did you rely on your wife to all the time? Did you make her feel like the most beautiful woman in the world even when she was dealing with body image issues of having children and aging? Did you do anything to try and make sex more interesting (many women like variety too, and sex with just one person can get boring and stale if you don’t put at least some effort into it)? Did you reassure her that she was desirable even when things got busy and crazy? These types of things can go a long way to increase sex drive in a woman.

            • I was always the person who initiated sex.

              I loved my ex wife and I did tell her that many times. I also would show her the appreciation I thought she deserved as my wife and mother of our child.

              He body did change after child birth. When I met her, she was a size 2. After having the child, she went to a size 10. Fine with me. A woman can be a 4 or 14. I am not that picky.

              As for making sex more interesting, it is kind of hard to do when it was happening only once a month. Yes, I attempted to explore, primarily different positions. But, my wife had a favorite position which was our default position. Honestly, I did not like it so much.

              You see this was the BIG problem: she made ALL the sexual choices. When, where, how often, and what position. NEVER did she ask me what I wanted.

              Btw, I note that you did not ask if SHE, my ex wife, did any of the things you are asking if I did. It just seems as if women think we men should do every damn thing. Why can’t women step up an initiate sex, ask for variety in sex, take responsibility for their health, weight and appearance? Just asking.

              So, it was best to leave the marriage as nothing was going to change. She just did not like sex with me. Even though she said she did. I came to realize in life (at age 48) that you just cannot put much credence in what a woman says. You must focus on what she does.

              The Olympic swimmer, Ryan Lotche, is coming under fire about some of his comments about women. If I knew at his age (27) what he knows about women, the outcome in my life would have been very different. He is obviously quite skeptical and doubting of women. I too feel the same way.

            • From your comment about women needing to take responsibility for their weight and appearance, it sounds like it WAS an issue for you. Which is a legitimate issue (I’m not disagreeing with you) but I think a lot if women become ashamed of our bodies as we age and that really puts a damper on sexual feelings. For example, one of the things that stops me from having casual sex (not that I have a ton of opportunities but just saying) is the knowledge that I have the body of a middle aged woman. I need to lose 20 pounds, and gravity has taken its toll on my breasts. I don’t walk around naked in front of my boyfriend for that reason, and I don’t like sexual positions that show off my body. I know this is stupid at some level but it’s hard to overcome those feelings. I don’t refuse positions (like woman in top) that give my boyfriend a good look but I never initiate those positions, to be honest. I like missionary best because he can’t see my body that wat. Again, is that stupid – probably yes. But I think this is a major reason that a lot of women become inhibited and lose their sexual desire after having kids and getting older. Especially if you know that your partner is less attracted to you. Obviously I can’t diagnose your wife’s issues but that could have been part of the problem. It’s hard to feel sexy when you don’t have a sexy body anymore.

            • No, her weight was never an issue. The only reason I made that comment was to say that if you want to remain fit and at a healthy body weight, people must take ownership of the lack of such. Whether a woman is a size 4 or 14 does not matter to me. Be if a woman is going to complain because she has gained 20 lbs, then she need to do something about it (i.e., take responsibility and change diet and exercise).

              I know a lot of women must feel sexy to be sexy. I have a friend who has to keep it bare and shaved to feel clean. Though, I always tell her how pretty and fresh her pussy really is, it does not matter to her….

        • Past is future says:

          I think you’re making a big mistake feeling bad about your past and considering hiding it. Will it turn off some guys? Probably. Will it turn on others? Probably, as well. Which kind of guy would you like to be with? If you’re looking for long term and marriage, pick someone who appreciates you for all of you.

          I’m a high-libido person and my spouse is not. If we’d figured this out earlier, I think it would have saved us a lot of trouble.

          • “I’m a high-libido person and my spouse is not. If we’d figured this out earlier, I think it would have saved us a lot of trouble.”

            Why did you NOT discover this earlier? Just asking. If two people are dating and having sex, it only seems logical they would know something about each other’s sexuality. No?

            • Past is future says:

              When we were dating, we were having lots of fun sex. Her sex drive’s tanked since getting married and having kids.

            • Have either one of you considered maybe dating a girl who wasn’t so fast to warm up sexually?

            • ?

              I don’t know what you’re really asking. Date a sexually “cold” woman?

              Whether she warms up slowly or not is besides the point if she is not interested in sex with you.

            • Not one whos cold, but one who doesn’t jump in the sack so fast.

            • Every woman I ever dated NEVER was fast to jump in the sack.

              Today, I am not interested in dating at all. I enjoy two FWBs situations. Honestly, I want to create a mini harem.

              I have given up on women and the relationship thingy. It is just pointless in my view. Just being honest.

              Women do find me likable. I do not have any problems attracting women. I am confident, though laid back. I am very charming but not a player. However, I am very honest with them about what I want. Most are looking for a relationship. I respect their desires and just move on to the next one.

  19. i think dolly said it best 40 yrs ago (to some controversy at the time)…a woman needs a helping hand, so touch your woman! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNMypfCiFnw

    i would also challenge the sex vs. love dichotomy, or the idea that satisfying a high libido requires lots of partners. since (at least for me) good sex is so much about communication and collaboration, i find it hard to really do right with someone i’ve just met. much more satisfying with someone who’s taken the time to learn about you and what you want and is interested in sustaining that relationship. as a woman i can say that there is almost nothing in the world that makes me feel more loved – and more turned on – than that…

  20. Harris, I really enjoyed your article. Both your honesty and insight were really great. You seemed to be able to pinpoint the messages women get about sex just as well as the messages men get. Such as the conformity of female sexuality being more of a show and performance for his pleasure, not necessarily hers.

    Here is to more authentic sex where neither men or women have to feel like they need to put on a show to interact with one another.

    • Quadruple A says:

      I think we have to consider that despite our modern cult of sincerity (with regard to sex), which is really a throwback to puritanism, that performance is an important part of sex. Performance makes sex more fun and you can’t have a performance without an audience. The point is that if you enjoy performing then it isn’t a problem and you don’t have to worry about whether the fact that you are doing it for somebody else’s pleasure undermines a claim to your own pleasure.

      • Gosh, I don’t think our culture is having much of a modern bout of sexual sincerity. I wish we were! I also don’t see how sexual sincerity is a throwback to puritanism. If anything, it allows for more enjoyment where both people can be open to being more vulnerable and loose in their sexuality and exploring what they may truly wan to explore rather then conforming to the perfomance they are told they most be or do to be “sexy” to one another.

        • Quadruple A says:

          I think it means being open minded about experience without the need to put labels and distinctions that distinguish authentic sexual expression from inauthentic sexual expression. The cult of sincere non-performative sex is mostly an internet phenomena. It’s puritan because it focuses on making sex pure from outside inauthentic influences but basically it substitutes the good/bad dichotomy of old fashioned puritanism with a new dichotomy of real/fake forms of enjoyment. I’m in a annoyed mood today and I think I’m just picking an obscure line of argument for the sake of it but I still don’t like the judgmental tone of a lot of enlightened sex advice and I didn’t much care for this article either.

    • Great point.

  21. @Past is future : ” So, when I see posters getting all up in arms that touching oneself while with a partner… who gives shit. It’s their loss.”
    I’m not a timid female, unlike so many females who say what you males want them to say. I speak the truth from which I know it.I have tried to talk in a decent tone, but seems some males here, don’t know how to do that. What an ugly thing to say just because every woman doesn’t want to masturbate herself during sex. Stop trying to make females feel like they are in the wrong. Some of us know better and I am one of those.
    You see the woman is already busy masturbating you when she uses her mouth, genital area, or her hands to give you pleasure. Do you see the selfish contradiction and the double standard? It seems that you are so angry or so full of contempt and hate for females, that you want her to satisfy herself while you thrust yourself in one or two cavity areas on her body.
    Stop making intimacy rules for other couples. It’s not you right!!!

    • What's your point? says:

      Jean, I don’t know how you read “Who gives a shit?” as an attempt to make rules for other couples. It was basically an expression of indifference. Go have sex however you’d like to.

  22. Quadruple A says:

    This is a horrible and sex negative article.

    Here is in brief form what a sex positive article with a title like “it’s okay to want sex” should look like.

    “It’s Okay to Want Sex.” –
    If you are like many men you have a desire for sex, and not necessarily in a relationship but for it’s own sake. Yet society has given you a lot of shaming messages about how you shouldn’t be one of those uncaring douchebags who objectifies women. While having sex for the sake of sex is growing more and more acceptable, there is still a paradoxical and pervasive stigma attached to consciously seeking out sex. These messages can keep you from seeking out your desires. I have some insights that I’ve come to learn over the years and I wish to share them with you….

    • I’m curious, where does wanting to have a lot of sex with one person fall, sex positive or sex negative?

      • There’s nothing wrong with wanting sex for the sake of sex, I don’t think he was trying to say that. Many people do. I had phases in my life where I did. You can even want sex within a relationship just for the sake of sex, not for some grand show of intimacy. The important part is to be straightfoward about it and not try and trick or be cruel to people about it. Wanting sex does not equal objectification, either. Objectification usually involves not seeing a woman a as a human being or making her uncomfortable. Like jrd says, I don’t see how wanting lots of sex within the context of a relationship is ‘sex negative.’ It works for some people, it doesn’t for others. For some it works to be in a relationship, and have sex for the sake of sex on the side. As long as you’re respectful to all involved and honest.

        • “Objectification usually involves not seeing a woman a as a human being or making her uncomfortable. ”

          Not making her feel uncomfortable is way too broad and it’s a good example of how confusing the messages men have been getting from women have been. Men can be made to feel uncomfortable by women but nobody calls it objectification or anything else. Women can treat men pretty much anyway they like so long as the man is willing to put up with it, and nobody will judge her for it. We can’t have equality when we only care about the feelings of one gender and women will never know how to treat men as true equals if the always hold men to higher standard than they hold themselves.

      • Quadruple A says:

        I guess it would fall in a sex positive category though actually it would be more “sex neutral”. Being “sex positive” involves acceptance of multiple forms of socio-sexual styles. Somebody who says that only polyamory is acceptable would in a way be sex negative because they are not being accepting of monogamous people, for example. As for why I think this article is sex negative- I think that is doesn’t honestly deal with the subject matter its title would it imply it should, instead of taking the opportunity to tell it’s readers about how its okay to want sex it does a bait-and-switch and instead becomes a lecture about how men should feel ashamed for feeling shamed about wanting sex- since supposedly that shame derives from treating women like commodities. Where are you coming from with this question?

        • I honestly don’t see where this article shames men. The part about women wanting and liking sex without a giant song and dance spoke to me. As for men, it just said, do what you want–regardless of what society tells you. If you want to rack up partners, do it because you desire to, not because society tells you to. If you want to wait or deny a woman sex or get turned on by something outside of conventional beauty standards, it doesn’t make you any less of a man. As long as you’re upfront about it all and focus on what you want, not what you’re told you want.

          How are these quotes sex-negative? They seem like nothing more than common sense to me, that sadly, needed to be stated:
          “I wasn’t seeing sex – or romance, for that matter – in terms of “here’s a fun thing we can both enjoy”, I was seeing it as “what do I have to do to get you to sleep with me.” It was an adversarial process…”

          “Being told simultaneously that you were supposed to be a stud and that women found sex icky does not make for a well-balanced view of sex growing up.”

          • FlyingKal says:

            He (the author of the article) was just lucky enough, on his first try, to find a woman who was just as interested in sex as he was, and also not afraid or reluctant to show it.
            This is more luck or coincidence than anything else, if you ask me, and is not something that should be used to berate or denounce other people in a condescending way.

        • “Where are you coming from with this question?”

          The times I have seen the phrase sex positive used, I have detected a if-you-don’t-believe-that-having-sex-with-as-many-partners-as-possible-is-healthy-and-should-be-encouraged-and-promoted-then-you’re-a-prude” attitude. I assume that means that those who think that sex is special and who desire to focus sexually on one person in an exclusive/monogamous relationship are the opposite of sex positive.

    • The Other Professor says:

      What the hail are you talking about, Quadruple A? There’s nothing sex-negative about this article. In fact, it’s merely a biographic narrative (with a little reflection thrown in) about overcoming the internalised sex-negativity that many man have as a result of the messages we receive about our own, and women’s, desires. How you can’t see that this is the opposite of sex-negative is kind of mysterious…unless you have a very different understanding of what that term means.

      • Quadruple A says:

        I think that saying its “okay to want sex” means you can approach a woman that you don’t know or barely know with sex as significant or only part of your intention. I’m still struggling with what it means to be sex positive but that is one plausible definition for me. This article suggests that its only okay to want sex within relationships with women. He specifically speaks and addresses only the subject of already existing relationships with women. Maybe he doesn’t think that is a good thing to approach a woman with sex in mind and that is okay but when you title an article “it’s okay to want sex” you should deliver on that title and least have some respect for the people who are looking for validation of whether its okay to want sex. The fact that he totally glides over that subject means he doesn’t even respect the readers enough to make an article about subject that they would natural expect based on the title. He also puts you down if you don’t already know what he claims know . That’s the internet. Everyone always wants to tear each other apart.

  23. what a seriously excellent article!! So good to see this stuff being spoken up.

  24. Great article ~ Thanks so much!

  25. he part about women wanting and liking sex without a giant song and dance spoke to me. As for men, it just said, do what you want–regardless of what society tells you. If you want to rack up partners,

  26. I live in kenya. i kindly wanted to know whether i can publish some of your articles in my magazine as i give you credit. Thanks Kim

  27. There is an opposite to the attitude expressed in this article that can also get in the way of collaborative sex. That is when a man’s sexual identity is very much put into his ability to please women, so much so that he feels very dejected when he can’t bring her to orgasm. This is more common in my experience than a man doesn’t believe in or doesn’t see the importance of a woman’s pleasure. This is why some women find it necessary to fake orgasms. Honest communication is the solution to this puzzle, too, though. The man in this scenario has to allow that he might not know how to please the woman so that he’s open to learning how. It’d probably also be good for him to allow that the woman probably wants to please him, too. The woman has to allow that if her pleasure really matters to the man, then it’s worth telling him what really pleases her or telling him she doesn’t know what pleases her and then allowing for some, potentially very fun, trial and error. Regardless, I enjoyed the article. I recognize the harmful aspects of how sex is portrayed in the media. However, a counter reaction can be just as bad.

    • wellokaythen says:

      Whether a person has an orgasm or not ultimately depends on himself or herself more than it does on the partner. If one or both people just think in terms of one giving an orgasm to the other, then that’s a perfect set-up for disappointment right there. It’s just another variant of the crazy idea that someone else is responsible for how you feel. Your partner can’t really give you an orgasm. He or she can only help you reach one.

      • No, the idea of sharing my body is to have my partner learn what turns me on and then he knows it like I do to bring me to orgasm without continued instruction. I have been in a two year relationship where my partner never learned to bring me to orgasm without my finger action. It frustrated me to no end thinking what’s the point of sharing when I can do the very same thing on my own and in less time. The lust for him faded because outside of being a great huger and kisser, he was lousy in bed. And to be with someone or to think of having sex with him AGAIN was more of a turn off because of the lack of his understanding of how important my needs for sex are. I’ve decided to end the relationship for this mere reason putting love and companionship aside as ultimately, if he hasn’t learned what I need and want and like after a year, it certainly didn’t get any better. And I am one hungry woman who relishes in the thought of being out with my man in any setting and to think how he has pleased me and how I can’t wait to be loved up again by his magic touch and have this yearning for him for more.

  28. I’m a young woman and I LOVE sex.

    • Quadruple A says:

      Do you love sex with guys who are also out there just looking for sex? Or does he have to at a minimum be like “i’m just looking for somebody nice to hang around and date?”

      • iam a young woman and i can have sex with a man just because i like him without thinking about anything else just for the pleausure of sex woman love sex too or at leats womans who has been really satisficed during a sexual encounter.

  29. I’ve been finding Good Men Project slightly confused lately, but this is the best article I’ve read on this site. Really useful. Thanks for writing it.

  30. Hunter @Green Detective says:
  31. I do agree that the overall tone of the article tended towards negative and perhaps a tad patronizing (particularly to us girls reading it, rolling our eyes and saying ‘duh’). But there are definitely some home truths here about sex politics in modern society. I hate to admit it but there have been many times where I wished I was a guy purely to be judged or labelled as a ‘player’ not a ‘slut’ based my answer to the dreaded question for (a lot) of women (definitely not for men) ‘what’s your number?’…(of sexual partners)

    • I hate to admit it but there have been many times where I wished I was a guy purely to be judged or labelled as a ‘player’ not a ‘slut’ based my answer to the dreaded question for (a lot) of women (definitely not for men) ‘what’s your number?’…(of sexual partners).
      What makes you so sure you wouldn’t be considered a “dog”, “womanizer”, “creep”, or “perv” instead?

      (I don’t mean this directly at you Stacey but when it comes to gender I have noticed something. When women go into “if I were a guy” mode they tend to go straight to the top of what is considered acceptable for men and presume that that is not just the default status of guys but the only status of guys. Kinda like pretending that the grass on the other isn’t just greener but assuming that all the grass on the other side is green in the first place.)

      • You absolutely have a point Danny, but while a guy who gets around can have many labels like you mentioned “dog”, “womanizer”, “creep”, or “perv” or indeed ‘player’-this in particular proven to be used often as a positive description (perhaps more between guys but still)….a women generally gets one label which in lets face it- in all contexts is used as a negative. I’ve certainly never heard a woman be called a ‘slut’ in a positive context, not even when women use it on themselves-so ingrained is this notion our society that a sexually liberated women who’s had a significant number of partners and/or casual sex is in some way flawed/devalued/impure/lacksselfesteem the list goes on. Personally I think we need to cultivate a positive word that is equal to the connotation of ‘player’ for women…just to have one positive label out there like men do-I don’t know about anyone else but it bothers me that on this superficial but significant level of labels (while we’re going there) women go from ‘sluts’ to ‘spinsters/old maids’ while men go from ‘players’ to ‘bachelors/playboys’. I dunno it’s just…that grass looks pretty damn green.

        • just to have one positive label out there like men do-I don’t know about anyone else but it bothers me that on this superficial but significant level of labels (while we’re going there) women go from ‘sluts’ to ‘spinsters/old maids’ while men go from ‘players’ to ‘bachelors/playboys’. I dunno it’s just…that grass looks pretty damn green.
          It only looks green to you because you are only looking at one part of the boy yard. Sure if you somehow manage to be on that one exact portion of the yard under the right circumstances it’s probably pretty green. (Hell by that logic when one is not sexually active the grass in the girl yard looks really damn green let me tell you.)

          But as for the “player” bit for guys. Considering that we (as a society) are just getting into examining just how damaging that label is for guys I’m not sure why it’s still being held up as “this is what guys are called” and acting like its only got positive connotations.

          …bothers me that on this superficial but significant level of labels (while we’re going there) women go from ‘sluts’ to ‘spinsters/old maids’ while men go from ‘players’ to ‘bachelors/playboys’….
          Actually that does seem to be changing. Changing to the point that women with active sexual lives are considered empowered while men that have active sex lives are considered to be predatory.

  32. Autochron says:

    I really wish I had read this when it came out.

    As a mid-30s man with little sexual experience, I’m beginning to see how harmful these beliefs have been to me, especially the second one about believing that women will loathe me as a “pervert” if I accidentally reveal that I like sex, or erotica, or fantasizing. Add to that the fact that I’m not very attractive in a classical sense and that I grew up with a lot of domestic violence and it’s no wonder I wanted, even needed, to “protect” women from my sexuality the same way I wanted to protect them from abuse.

    Any tips on how I might learn to deal with this part of the equation? I’d love to share them with my therapist.

    • @autochron
      From your comment I get the idea that your mind is in the way. Words like ‘pervert’ and ‘not very attractive’ are negative ideas about yourself and it’s those beliefs that make us feel ashamed for who we are. Shame moves us away from our bodies and blocks our (sexual) energy. At the same time it puts us in our minds and may stir up fantasies. Thus the blockage of this powerful energy could turn what is the most creative force in the universe into a massively destructive one.
      From my experience my advice to you would be
      (1) learn to embrace yourself as the valuable individual that you are,
      (2) accept what happens inside your body and
      (3) FEEL FEEL, FEEL IT.
      Remember: Your body including your sexuality is OK. Without it, the human species would not have survived all those thousands of centuries, so what can be wrong with it?

      • @Michael

        Good advice, and well worth taking. I guess I’m hung up by something slightly different.

        I consider myself a male feminist, and proud of it — it’s provided a great deal of good for both men and women — but I still feel that some aspects of feminist culture so far have been somewhat misguided. In particular, the tendency for male sexuality to be demonized is something that resonates deeply in my psyche, and something that I’m only now coming to grips with in a way.

        My first reaction when I read your article was “Well, yeah, I could do that, but if I’m just going to express my sexuality to women and thereby expose them to something that bothers them, then wouldn’t it cause harm to women in general if I went there?” Which, of course, speaks deeply of my inability to trust that women will ever, EVER see my sexuality the way you’re encouraging me to see it.

        GendErratic has an excellent article on the kind of thing I’ve internalized here: http://www.genderratic.com/p/2146/ladies-auxiliary-of-the-patriarchy-demonizing-male-sexuality/

        Please understand that I don’t mean to say I see women accurately, I’m probably quite misguided, but witnessing my father’s abuse combined with embracing feminism before I was mature enough to understand it has kind of emblazoned this type of mistrust in my brain.

  33. Intricate or not it boils down to a debatable thesis. Almost pointless to go there with no substantial explanations. Encouragement that isn’t foggy is hard to come by. Great article.

  34. The author eventually figured out that big change from the Victorian era, when there were two kinds of women——lustful versus wifely.

    Men and women now realize those two kinds of women are the same woman at different times and with different men.

    For a period of time, a woman can and will fall in lust, as intensely, and insatiably as any man, but typically that woman will cool off, in her lust for that particular guy, after a few years or a few children.

    Married men often have a harder time seducing their wives, than single men have finding a woman who likes sex and likes them.

    Staying attracted to that same guy, is more of a challenge any woman, than ignoring and resisting attraction for other women is for any man.

  35. Sarah Sutherland says:

    As a woman, the fact that I love sex makes me seen as a ‘slut’ or ‘nympho’. Even worse I am in my 40s and overweight. So I will be seen as a frustrated spinster. It is FAR easier for men to express an interest in sex, want to pick up women and be successful in that regard. It will never be easy for the likes of me

  36. An awful lot of me are *only* concerned about getting themselves off, have zero care of what a woman wants or needs in bed. I don’t need money or gorgeous. I want a nice guy who wants both of us to have a great time in bed. Frankly with too much porn, the guys who aren’t completely self absorbed lovers are harder to find all the time! And yeah, plenty of women have had more partners than they will ever admit. If you want to be married to a woman who loves sex then why do you discount the “slut” and marry the women who have hang ups about it? Your double standards bite you in the butt!

  37. Anonymous says:

    I liked the vibe of the article but think that one important point was left out…women love orgasms. If the sex is casual, as the article implies, there will be a disappointed women if she doesn’t get off. There should be a sidebar which states that a women wants either romance or orgasm..both if possible. An encounter with neither sucks! Just acknowledging that women like sex isn’t helping anyone and isn’t new.

Trackbacks

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  5. […] and worthy of suspicion. Suspicion that in places like Texas needs to be codified into law. http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/its-okay-to-want-sex/ My good British friend posted this on Facebook yesterday. I thought it was germane to the OP. […]

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