Jennifer Evans believes that porn provides a unique window into our most intimate thoughts and actions.
I am many things: a woman, an academic, a feminist, married, raising two girls, and I’m pro-porn. I’m also an expert in queer history, and write about men’s desire and sexual practices. How bizarre? No, actually, how utterly and completely normal.
I’ve been following this debate about pornography with relish. It proves a point I strive to make again and again in my undergraduate classes and in my own work. No matter on what side we find ourselves, when it comes to pornography, we just can’t help but talk about it. And by talking, debating, (and oftentimes disagreeing) we prove that porn provides a unique window into our most intimate thoughts and actions, our cultural beliefs—even high politics.
In fact, historians of sexuality will tell you that throughout time, erotica and pornography played a vital role in how people understood core aspects of themselves. Must this be a bad thing, lead to sinister outcomes, threaten the very stability of all we hold dear?
The obvious answer is no. Let’s not fall in to what experts call a “moral panic”—a heightened state of response dictated by emotion over evidence. Of course, it’s difficult not to see the mercury rise when discussing pornography. It’s a highly fraught terrain. Some might say a minefield, with deeply entrenched positions on both sides of the debate.
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My position is this: before we rush to judgment over “men’s true nature” and “women’s inherent opposition,” lets spell a few things out for discussion’s sake. First thing: we are not the first to debate the merits, impact, and utility of pornography. Anyone who has viewed the frescos of Pompeii knows what I mean here. What differs is that we are quick to see explicit sexual imagery as a sign of sign of something not quite right, something dangerous and in need of control.
If Michel Foucault is to be believed—the French philosopher whose writing helped birth the history of sexuality as a field—other cultures saw erotica as opening up much-needed discussion about mutuality—one’s likes and dislikes in the bedroom—and desire. Images provoked erotic play and negotiation, allowing, in an ideal sense, for an ethical and complimentary exploration of sexual wants and needs. Explicit images provided truths about our sexual selves.
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Other cultures saw erotica as opening up much-needed discussion about mutuality—one’s likes and dislikes in the bedroom—and desire. Images provoked erotic play and negotiation, allowing, in an ideal sense, for an ethical and complimentary exploration of sexual wants and needs. Explicit images provided truths about our sexual selves.
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Sometime in the 19th century this changed. Suddenly, explicit images became evidence of the contagion within. Instead of promoting healthy discussion and debate, pornography was evidence of a tortured soul, painfully out of step with the newly important place of the middle-class family and the masculinities and femininities that buttressed it. Science and medicine—newly professionalized—schooled men ways to channel and repress their desire as self-mastery became an emblem of responsible manhood. Women were alternatively regarded as frigid, uninterested, or over-sexed, requiring the discipline of marriage and motherhood to overcome their extreme emotions.
Isn’t it funny to see some of these ideas still in effect today? Of course, the playing field is much different in the internet age, after the Sexual Revolution, with new forms of marriage increasingly the norm.
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But what would happen if we were to take up this issue of the merits of pornography as an entry in to an open engagement with the nature of desire?
Admittedly, we don’t even really know the scope of that with which we are dealing. The Newsweek article that Hugo Schwyzer cites in his recent article in here (“Are Most Men Like This?”) casts a pretty wide net in seeking to get at the truth about men’s motives for purchasing sex. There are also significant differences between accessing pornography on the computer at work and paying for a sexual encounter in a club, on the street, or abroad. Was the person underage? Were they suitably compensated for their sex work? Are there mandatory health checks on the work site? I won’t deal with these otherwise important questions here.
I am interested in the sense of panic surrounding allegations that “husbands and boyfriends, brothers and fathers, bosses and teachers, coaches and co-workers” are furtively consuming porn, and that this is having none other than a negative impact on otherwise healthy, happy relationships. Leaving the sex work issue aside, since it really deserves analysis on its own terms, what is at stake here really? Are all men secretly “doing it” (and women, by extension, not)? Must its impact necessarily be negative?
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While for most of the day, I do occupy a place high up the ivory tower, my research into real world consumption of pornography—queer erotic photography specifically—might yield some interesting food for thought.
There is actually a burgeoning discussion in academic circles about the merits of pornography as a teaching tool. Porn studies (“the porn curriculum” according to a 2006 Time report March 26, 2006) hasn’t yet swept college campuses, but it is an eligible field of study at many universities in Canada and the United States, where Laura Kipnis (of Northwestern) and Linda Williams (Berkeley) were among the first to apply a feminist analysis to it in the early 1990s. This alternative approach came of age in the context of the Catherine Mackinnon and Andrea Dworkin debate that pornography was at least partially to blame for sexual assault, since it dehumanized women in to objects of male sexual desire.
Kipnis and Williams, and pro-sex academic feminists like them, argue that pornography is a source like many others that yields insight in to a range of social issues, attitudes, and concerns, from poverty and class stratification to the media construction of taste. Asked whether it is prudent to show such explicit material to university students, Williams thinks it is instructive to probe, analyze, and test one’s limits. “Showing a film … allows them to react and then to take a step back and analyze their reaction with the critical tools you give them” (Time, March 26, 2006).
Sure, there’s a difference between viewing pornography in a controlled environment versus stealing a glance in one’s office cubicle. And Kipnis and Williams do not represent the only academic view on porn’s impact on today’s society. In Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality (Beacon Press, 2010), Gail Dines (Wheelock College, Boston) argues passionately that the images we confront online today are anything but “playful images that feed our sexual imaginations but materials products that depict a type of sex that is formulaic, generic, and plasticized.” (Gail Dines, “Adventures in Pornland” HuffPost Books, July 6, 2010). Having interviewed hundreds of college-age students, she argues that the porn industry has managed to color and shape “identities, sexualities, and ideas about intimacy, relationships, and connection.”
I don’t disagree that much of what is found online is repetitive trite. And I believe too that the industry would benefit from more feminist film making along the lines of work by feminist pornographer Tristan Taormino, who lets actors choose their own partners, showcases women’s pleasure, and ensures an equitable and safe work environment on set and on screen (http://www.puckerup.com/).
What I do disagree with is the lumping together of all forms of pornography, and, more importantly, the as-yet-unproven assumption that the outcome of viewing porn can only be dangerous, violent, and bad.
The truth is, we have entire bodies of work still trying to reconcile the impact of what we view on what we do. And we know even less in social-historical terms about the role of fantasy on our own developing sense of pleasure and identity. While we can’t know for certain the precise impact of pornography on day-to-day relationships, we can surmise a few things drawing on the literature in gay, lesbian, and queer studies, where much more research has been done.
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In GLBTQ studies, there are fewer taboos surrounding the place of pornography in shaping people’s desires. To the contrary, erotic photography, stories, and pornography represent a form of resistance to the status quo, and were often places of refuge and community in a hostile and homophobic age.
In my work on men and masculinity, I’ve found that homoerotic images bought and sold in the mail order trade were central avenues for questioning men to have their desires affirmed, molded, and shaped. Pornography bestowed a sense of belonging and refuge, and educated men about a form of desire that still could not speak its name in public.
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For better or worse, the erotic arts are a source into our selves, giving us a clearer picture of what makes us tick, what we like and dislike, tolerate and abhor.
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Of course, all is not sunshine and roses even among queers. The spread and proliferation of pornographic images since the 1970s has been linked to greater body dissatisfaction in the GLBTQ community as the hairless, youthful ideal took hold in advertising campaigns and mainstream porn. But all is not lost; researchers in Germany are undertaking research to see how people are responding to these new beauty norms. Alongside youthful body ideals there is a huge and growing network of amateur pornographers, taking film, video, and snapshots of themselves to document their own body beautiful and resist the dominant gaze.
For better or worse, the erotic arts are a source into our selves, giving us a clearer picture of what makes us tick, what we like and dislike, tolerate and abhor. Still, the question remains: can pornography take us to a more ethical, equitable place of intimacy, bonding, pleasure, and exchange? I think the dirtiest little secret of all is, it could.
—Photo emelec/Flickr
About Jennifer Evans
Some of the slant in porn is because of basic practical questions that have more to do with physical reality than any kind of gender ideology. I’m not saying there’s no sexual politics involved, just that not every cinematic decision in porn production is the result of some kind of systemic gender power structure.
First of all, a lot of porn is designed to be viewed by someone, usually male, masturbating in private. Naturally, that person can’t actually feel someone else at the moment so has to make due with seeing someone else, so of course the camera is going to focus on showing the things he/she can’t feel. Hence, the prevalence of “insertion shots,” which are not very good substitutes for physical sensation in my opinion but may be the best you can do with a visual medium. Yes, there is a lot of focus in porn on how the people look. That’s in no small part because, well, it’s a visual medium. Once virtual reality technology reaches a point where it can give a more sophisticated tactical experience, I’m sure porn will be very, very different even with no change in sexual politics.
Similarly, the prevalence of “facials” is not necessarily driven by a desire to subjugate anyone. Such shots have something to do with the practicalities of porn filming. For example, semen on the skin is much safer for an actor than it is inside the body. (Granted, that doesn’t explain the choice of the face instead.) Furthermore, the visual ejaculation on screen directly connects the character on screen with the viewer himself.
I would add that assuming there is consent all around, there is nothing inherently, automatically demeaning about a facial any more than there’s anything inherently demeaning about consensual oral sex. I would not like to receive either from the cable guy (it seems pretty squicky to me), but that’s just my particular preference at the moment, and I pass no judgment on others who would consent.
I meant ‘tactile’ instead of ‘tactical’. Trying not to read too much into that mistake….
Erin – The claims you make about porn performers are just the worst kind of stereotyping and psychobabble. First, show some hard evidence that anywhere close to a majority of porn performers come from backgrounds of abuse. If you can’t, I think you’re just working from a stereotype and one that you can conveniently use to paint porn performers as victims without agency. Its a fucked up and condescending point of argument. And this idea that porn performers do lesbian porn based on a “dislike” of men shows how little you know about porn performers of the industry. In fact, can you even name a single current f/f-only performer or know the first thing about their background?
Um, nice non-neutral moderation policy GMP has got going on here. Some posters get to post paragraphs worth of invective, while others, like me, are blocked if we post anything longer than a few sentences. Way to go!
Some people lack creativity and imagination and require porn.
Some people use porn as a crutch for their sexuality when they might be better off developing their sexuality on their own without the “aid/hiderence” of porn.
A person does not need to use porn to have a good sex life. On the contrary, some of the worst sex partners are porn addicts.
Same is true of women who use vibrators and other sex toys.
Some people use vibrators as a crutch for their sexuality when they might be better off developing their sexuality on their own without the “aid/hindrance” of vibrators.
Some of the worst partners are vibrator addicts.
I’m amused at the idea that the ancients used porn to provoke ethical, mutually-respectful discussions about porn. You know, with women.
Anyone who believes that the ancients used porn to provoke ethical, mutually-respectful discussions is living in a dream world. Porn is about male sexual dominance, not about mutual, egalitarian sexual pleasure between women and men.
You’re not seriously asking for support of Catherine McKinnon, are you? What next, are you going to ask us to read Mary Daly and Andrea Dworkin for insight into pornography? They are the Fox news of intelligent discourse on sexuality.
And you do realize that the Ari Libskr’s documentary was banned for distributing anti-Semitic pornography. I’m sure Ms. McKinnon had a fist in there somewhere…the irony is delicious.
McKinnon, Daly, and Dworkin have made extreme remarks, but they also have brilliant insights. They shouldn’t get trashed.
I would have to question your assessment of “brilliant”.
I am far from the first person to say this, but the biggest draw for men who watch porn is not the desire to subjugate women nor is it how the women in porn look or sound. The main engine of porn is the fantasy of a very simple, straightforward, quick and easy female sexuality. The chief draw for many men is the idea of being with a woman who readily and eagerly wants and enjoys sex at the drop of a hat. She appreciates everything that her partner does with her and enjoys every second of it, and her partner pleases her quite easily. It is an unambiguous, communicative, non-mysterious, physical sexuality. He sees specific activities that translate directly into a woman’s pleasure. That is the main fantasy in most cases, played out in a variety of scenarios but with the same underlying wish fulfillment.
I’m not saying this is necessarily justified or healthy, but I would say that the enjoyment of the female characters in porn is generally a major part of the fantasy. The fact that the women characters generally consent and usually seem to enjoy themselves immensely suggests to me there’s more going on here than just dreaming about power, violence, and silicone. Seems to me if this were just about men getting off on subjugating women, the female characters would more often just close their eyes and think of England.
What do we make of the female characters’ enjoyment in so much of the porn out there?
That Guy – yeah I do think you have a point that other reasons men like porn is because of how easily pleased and how always up for sex the women in porn are. It’s not complicated. It’s easy. It’s “non-mysterious” as you said. All those things are stereotypically how men themselves respond to sex right? Men are usually more up for it them women and the fact that porn portrays men not wanting to have to work too hard to woo a woman shows how men wished women really were. Men don’t want to work that hard when it comes to women. Is that a good thing? The women in porn are being depicted not with real female sexuality but with a more masculine sexuality in hyper female bodies. Again, is that really a good thing? Even if it’s defended on the back of “fantasy”.
I disagree that a portion of it isn’t infact about how the women look since we all have a good idea about what the stereotypical “pornstar” looks like and since most women in porn fit into a very narrow age field and body type. I also disagree that a lot of it isn’t about subjugation of women. Especially with the way porn is today. While I think you have a valid point, I think it’s unfair to ignore the other factors we see in porn, the violence and misogyny included just because men want easy sex.
And while I understand a desire to simplifly sex from a male perspective, I really do, it’s still a desire to conform women into something they aren’t. Women aren’t men with female parts. If men are telling us that their fantasy is that we basically are, what message do you think that sends? It doesn’t send the message that men enjoy the journey of getting to know us sexually and non sexually. And it doesn’t send the message that men really enjoy who women are.
As for your question, you had asked “What do we make of the female characters’ enjoyment in so much of the porn out there?”
I definitely think that men want to see women having a good time in most cases. And clearly from porn, they want to see them go crazy for having to do very little in return. But I don’ think men stop to think about if these things are really pleasurable to women. I think the enjoyment of the female characters in the porn is really more about *him* and his enjoyment that what would really please a woman. Just think about all the things you seen in porn that you know can’t really be making a woman feel that good. Even if she is is moaning in pleasure as it happens. And just think about all the men and young boys that repeatidly watch images of women absolutely loving things that don’t really turn on real women. Do you think this encourages men in their real lives to look for ways to turn on their real partner or do you think this encourages men to wonder why their real life parters are so “difficult” and “hard”.
Of course, implicit in your response is that all “real women” want the same thing. And that all porn shows the same thing.
I think most of us have a basic understanding about what *most* porn is about. Porn does not create positve images of women. I think that’s a basic and simple concept that both men and women grasp. It also leans to varying levels of verbal, physical and emotional abuse that often the female actress is “acting” like is the best thing that ever happened to her. Porn says that women LOVE to be as verbally and physically used and abused for male pleasure. It would be like women believing that men loved to be taken for all their money if there were enough fantasy images to project that fantasy.
Secondly, there is nothing in my response about what “real women” want is the same thing. What *is* said is that porn sets up an ideal about women that is so far from what real women are.
Actually Erin, I disagree with your premise, which has undergone no analysis, merely your assertion, in order for you to accept it as a truth. What exactly is a “positive image” of women? That they *don’t* enjoy sex? That they *don’t* share any sexual fantasies in common with men?
In the context of porn, there really is no “abuse” , except in certain fetish areas, instead, in mainstream hardcore porn, where there is any verbal or physical abuse, this is presented in the context of rough sex and some graphic language, but it is not intended to represent an unwilling participant or one who is not enjoying the encounter, presumably pursuant to a role-playing scenario or the indulgence of, you guessed it, the fetish enjoyed by the character.
And I believe that in fact there are plenty of social scenarios presented to a female audience that objectify men in terms of their financial resources, their “power” whether that is purely physical or coupled with a dominant charisma from their professional role. How many male “objects of desire” are there in these trashy romance novels that women devour that are not either hunky physical specimens with explicitly detailed bodily characteristics, or men of extreme power and influence? I have thumbed through many of these novels of my wife’s, and without fail, all of the male characters are one of these two types. Trashy romance novels are the female equivalent of hardcore porn.
That’s my thesis, anyway.
The domination / submission theme is very common in porn and spans many different genre – gay, lesbian, straight, male being dominant, female being dominant etc
Taken in this light, it shows that power exchange in sexuality can be stimulating. If you remove the sexual aspect all together, you see the same dynamic in violent films, horror, slash, romance fiction, and so on.
We all have fantasies of revenge, manipulation, which we never act upon. Personally, I’d be worried if I did not see these aspects of humane behavior in pornography. Fantasy / dreams do not share a porous border with reality. I’ve fallen out of open windows dozens of times in my dreams. I’ve yet to do so in real life.
Yes, the domination/submission theme is common in many different genre’s of porn. No one denies this. However, it excels in heterosexual male porn much more then female being dominant porn does. Further, even female dominant porn is made mostly for men.
If it were only that simple theme between domination and submission. I don’t think domination or submission is bad. It’s basically about being in a safe enough place to give up control for the sub and for the dominant it’s about having the power to control the situation without destroying the person under your control. It’s about trust. But what happens in porn isn’t a simple matter of domination and submission. I do think continually projecting the image of women as loving submissively abusive sex is bleeped up. For lack of a more articulate term. Porn isn’t just about showing strong, sexual men. It’s about showing abusive sexual men and women that apparently love to be abused.
As for your dreaming of falling out of an open window vs fantasy porn, they really aren’t the same thing. Even having a fleeting thought about doing something crappy to another person isn’t the same thing. You are most likely not reinforcing those beliefs with masturbation. And you are most likely not seeking out a visual medium that also reinforce those beliefs.
If I sat around masturbating to images of men being called names, and instead of being used for sex, they were being used for money, then kicked out for the next guy that could be sucked dry for his money, and all these men were projected as loving this treatment and getting fulfillment out; I don’t think there is a man here that would think I had much respect men. And certainly none of these men knowing this about me would take me seriously as a good mate. And neither should they. Yet, women are asked everyday to take men seriously that enjoy seeing women treated and used a certain way. And we are just expected to smile and act like it’s great and that men must really respect us if they like seeing some 18 year old girl get called slut while banged up the butt by some guy old and hairy enough to be her dad. As long as he takes the kids to baseball practices, pays the bills and loves his children, we all pretend that it shouldn’t matter what his sexual activities and interests are saying about him. But it does matter. Because it says something at the heart of his beliefs about himself and women. And I’m not saying that he hates women or that he is a bad guy. He could be a great guy! But we can’t deny what it is saying.
Porn reflects reality as much as fantasy, and the reason why this is true is because people act on their fantasies. Perhaps not everyone, but most people do. So to the extent that power is a theme in porn, it simply mirrors the dynamic that power has in real life. Women pursue “powerful” men, and harbor fantasies about them. Everything from starfuckers to groupies to women that chase politicians. Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, you cannot tell me that was not all about power.
The truth is that people are proud of their sexual conquests, whatever they view those to be. This , I think, is a human, not gender-specific aspect of narcissistic tendency which is probably active in most people, whether this is a trait they display publicly or not.
Maybe porn reflects your reality J Sebastian, but it doesn’t reflect mine. Yes , women like powerful men. However, for most women, power is not always defined the same way. Which is why some women like men with muslces and other like men with booksmarts and yet others like a man that can cook. ‘Power” is a funny word that’s not always defined in stereotypical terms of superior social grace or your ability to manipulate people. Even in porn, the men aren’t just powerful, they are brutish and mean spirited. If that’s what you want your reality to be, then have it. But I don’t even think porn portrays men very well. It’s funny to me that men complain often about how they are portrayed in modern sitcomes but when it comes to porn, they lay down and accept the way their masculinity is portrayed.
As for “starfuckers” and groupies, while there are women that engage in this behavior, I don’t think that’s the majority of women. Most women don’t want to be a notch on a bedpost and are looking to be with “stars”. If you are going to use Monica Lewinsky as some kind of measuring stick for all of womanhood, then you must be using Bill Clinton as some kind of measuring stick of manhood and that leads me to believe that you think most men are cheaters.
Further, you might view your bedpartners as “conquests”, but I don’t. And I sincerely don’t think it’s that simplistic for people who desire romantic relatoinships that are based on more then just sex.
I appreciate your response. It’s thoughtful and specific and respectful, which I appreciate. I appreciate your points, but I see some disagreement and maybe some miscommunication on my part.
I was trying to add to the discussion about power and appearance, but I did not mean to suggest that the “easy female sexuality” (my phrase) was the ONLY driving force behind porn. I was not asking for anyone to ignore any disturbing aspects of porn content, just that the enjoyment that people get from porn is from a variety of things. Misogyny and a wish to subjugate women is at best a partial explanation for porn’s popularity.
The fact that the female characters have a great time is, I suspect, probably the most common element in hetero porn, about as universal as you can get in such a diverse medium. (Obviously even this is not universal.) It’s safe to say it is more common than any particular scenario. It’s more ubiquitous than any specific outfit, body shape, cinematic angle, etc. The woman’s pleasure must be part of a very common fantasy in porn viewing. I hate to add that women’s orgasms in porn are probably more common and dramatic than in the real world. I’m suggesting that this is more important on the whole than what men want women to be “subjected to” or look like. In porn, female enjoyment is more common than female degradation, even if you define degradation very broadly. (And, no, I’m not saying the two are totally unrelated.)
I’m not a total relativist, but I do think much about “degradation” is in the eye of the beholder. To me, a partner who consents to something and enjoys something is not being degraded, no matter what my individual sexual preferences are. It may be an activity that I find unpleasant and would not let anyone do to me, and in that case maybe I would be tempted to feel that it’s degrading if I were in that position. That’s a healthy empathetic impulse. But, that doesn’t mean that person is being degraded. I will probably never consent to giving fellatio, but I would not automatically say a man/woman is being degraded because he/she does do it.
I think you and I may be seeing the role of fantasy in very different ways. I disagree somewhat with the idea that viewing porn is part of “a desire to conform women into something they aren’t.” I do agree that there are men who watch porn and then demand that the women their lives look and behave exactly like porn characters no matter what those women think or feel. I don’t know how common that is, but I would agree with you that those men are going to have a lot of trouble finding and sustaining relationships with actual humans. I’m guessing you and I would agree that if a man gets all of his ideas about women from porn he will generally be ill-prepared for flesh-and-blood relationships. I’d say there’s broad consensus on that.
But, there’s a big difference between fantasizing about something and expecting it to happen. There’s a big difference between daydreaming and demanding. I don’t think imagining a different partner is always harmful to a relationship. Many people, male and female, have wished to meet a wonderful, extremely rare member of the opposite sex. I think it’s common and natural to imagine a partner who likes all the same things you do just as much as you do. I know a lot of women wish their current male partners acted a little differently in their sex lives. That’s widely accepted, and somehow the men are the ones to blame in those cases as well. (I know my wife has imagined me as a character in a Merchant/Ivory film, complete with ruffled cuffs and striding across the foggy moors. Sorry, not a lot of moors nearby, and my English accent is atrocious….)
Just as there’s a difference between fantasizing about sex with women and only thinking of women as sex objects.
There is misogyny in porn. Some of it is no doubt driven by men’s frustration with their sexual experiences with women. Some of it may be a kind of wish fulfillment. Some of it is there because you can find EVERYTHING in porn if you search long enough.
But, if hetero, male-centered porn is driven by misogyny, it’s a pretty complicated form that is very hard to detect sometimes. If it were simple, unambiguous misogyny, then the female characters would suffer a lot more than they do. They would not consent nearly as much as they do, and they would not enjoy things as much as they do. Something more complicated is going on than simple misogyny.
That Guy, I think you’ve missed what I’ve said. But I do agree that people watch porn for a variety or things. I just think it’s wrong to say that because men just want easy female sex, that it makes all those all those other elements okay. I just too often see this argument when people want to ignore the gross amount of misogyny that infact makes up the industry.
I agree that the female character is *projected* as loving everything that is happening to her. I totally disagree that the female enjoyment is more common then female degradation. It’s all wrapped up together. The female actress is shown getting off to her own degradatoin. While I acknowledge that men want to see women have a good time in porn, they don’t really want to see it happen through the acts that would really turn women on. If they did, you would see more porn where men were going down on women or in general were really trying to please women. And you just don’t. They are looking to watch women have fun in acts that are purely about male pleasure first. Call her slut? She loves it! Slap her around? She loves it! Shove it up her butt even if she is wincing? She loves it! Shove down her throat even though it clearly isn’t making her feel good? She still loves it! Because *he* loves it. In porn, she loves everything a man does to her without him even having to try very hard. Without him having to even be sensitive to her body. In porn, men aren’t sensitive to women’s bodies. Her body is really just a dumping ground. Which connects with your easy female sexuality comments even. Everything a man does to her in porn, despite her *acting* pleasure, is only really contingent on his pleasure. Infact, her pleasure isn’t really important. It’s just another prop on the set. When you combined strong misogynistic themes with an actress *acting* that everything happening to her is great, it’s a really dangerous slope. And it’s not about real female pleasure. It’s about what men want women’s pleasure to be. Easy. Cheap. Basically nonexistent in the face of his needs.
You are right that when it comes to “degradation”, in your own bedroom where two people are consenting to certain acts and both are enjoying it, it’s their right to do so. I still think you can be degrading someone even with their consent, even with their enjoyment. But we aren’t talking about in the privacy of your own bedroom. What we are talking about a multi billion dollar industry that often showcases women a certain way. A certain way that many men have been watching since their early teen years. That’s a lot of years and time with a medium that isn’t known for it’s kind treatment to women don’t you think?
Of course porn is about “a desires to conform women into something they aren’t”. Everything about porn has very little to do with real female sexuality, needs, looks or actions. It’s about women responding to sex in ways a man would. A man doesn’t have to “demand” his partner act or look more porn star to still have expectations. He can make *requests*. Requests that she dress up more like something HE likes in porn. Requests that she do something HE likes in porn. Suggestions that she watch porn with him! Because what is better then having the attention of your man on you when he can watch lesbian teenage twins go at it and have you by his side.
I’ve been in enough relationships to know that these requests are not uncommon. Men are more encouraging to you acting more like a porn star, then yourself in sex. They say it’s *just* fantasy but they encourage you to act more like the fantasy. They give you lots of compliments and talk about how great it is when you act more like their fantasy. They don’t give you those same compliments and talk about how great sex is when you are more true to your average normal female sexuality. I think you over exploited this theory in that previous post by using words “all” and “demand” to downplay how serious this issue is and how many men infact do place certain expectations on their own real life partners and on women in general for their looks and actions. You can’t have been watching something from your early teen years and not think it doesn’t somewhat shape your sexuality and views about women. And even if these men aren’t placing certain expectations on their real life partners, what do you think it tells a wife or girlfriend in a relationship that her man enjoys breasts implants 18 year olds? So men don’t *expect* us to look like that but they sure as heck like the women that do! And as a man and woman gets older, she can watch the man she loves oggle young and younger girls. Because lets be honest, that’s what guys do. We all age but the girls in the porn movies pretty much stay the same age. Discounting the nitch porn outlets that don’t make up the majority of porn. Women learn real soon where men find their worth.
You said there was a big different between fantasizing about something and expecting it to happen. And there is. ANd like you, I don’t think men *expect* their woman to do something just because they saw it in porn. But I do know men encourage their women to do something that they’ve seen in porn that *they* like. ANd since the female actress sure did seem to enjoy it, why wouldn’t his partner? Completely forgetting that the female parter is an “actress” first. And any projections of her pleasure, is part of the fantasy.
As for male-centered porn being driven by misogyny and being hard to detect, that’s completely untrue. Strong themes of misogyny run at varying levels through porn. I encourage you to just google the word “porn” and click on the first link. I did. There are some very strong misogynistic themes that come up just from that.
Further, by claiming that you truly know the level of pleasure the female characters are actually having when doing a porno, and you yourself said “they would not enjoy the things as much as they do”, it seems to me like your buying the exact fantasy porn wants you to buy. That the female LOVES everything that is happening to her and she isn’t infact “acting”.
Erin,
Thank you for your thoughtful and thorough response. I think my earlier message has created some misinterpretation of my intent. In some ways, I agree with your interpretation about what I said but disagree on the level of assumptions.
First, I agree, most men who desire their sex lives to be more like porn scenarios would be more likely to ask their partners instead of make demands. You’re right, they don’t necessarily expect their partners to be just like that but they may ask. In my view, requesting a particular sexual role play is not in itself an attempt to mold someone into something different. Asking someone to try something you find enjoyable is not forcing that person to conform to any kind of ideal.
I don’t see anything wrong with making a request. Asking is not coercion. Of course, ideally, this request should be done with openness and respect and talked about in a constructive way. Each partner has an equal right to make a request, and each partner has an equal right to deny a request. Maybe the idea of what he’s asking for is a dealbreaker, and of course everyone has the right to decide what that is for oneself.
Second, I agree the viewer generally pretends that what he is viewing is really happening. With fantasy there is a suspension of disbelief. During the fantasy, yes, I do buy the fantasy, sometimes literally buy it. The female actors are acting much more pleased than they really are, no doubt. I also agree that the scenario tends to be about what pleases the man to see or hear, not what really pleases most women. The fantasy is that the women in the porn scenarios enjoy it, too. Imagining someone else enjoying the same experience that you’re enjoying as a fantasy just doesn’t seem like problem to me.
Any man who is looking to porn for great ideas for how to please the women in his life is an idiot. Any man who thinks that the actresses are not acting is an idiot. I’m not sure the fault for that lies in the porn industry. If you think there is a notable lack of cunnilingus in porn movies, then I sympathize, and I understand your point about what that says about the portrayal of female pleasure, but it is actually very easy to find online.
On a related note, I don’t think it’s wrong to have a billion dollar industry set up to feed male sexual fantasies. Maybe this is where we have a findamental disagreement. I don’t think it’s unhealthy to have fantasies that focus on things that I find exciting and fantasize I am with someone who likes it, too. I tend to see that as part of the nature of sexual fantasy.
Third, I think I generally disagree that someone who consents to something and enjoys it can still be degraded. The only way I can think of is if there are much more pleasurable possibilities that the person has not been allowed to pursue. Perhaps he or she would in fact enjoy something else even more but doesn’t feel like that is an option. I don’t think the influence of porn reduces anyone’s autonomy to seek consensual pleasure, nor should it. I’m not comfortable telling someone who enjoys and consents to something that even though he/she doesn’t think it’s degrading, it really is. Some people like or at least don’t mind being called names within the context of a role play.
Fourth, I agree that many men find young women attractive and continue to do so as they (the men) age. I’m not convinced that therefore they lose interest in women their own age just because of the way that they look. But, if a woman only sees love, relationships, and sex as a competition with other women, then I would argue she is not really open to the possibility of a peer-to-peer relationship in the first place. I suppose that could be partly the fault of porn, but I suspect there are much larger and deeper issues being expressed in that case.
Finally, I think even IF the “degradation” examples that you mention are present in the majority of porn, and just for the sake of argument let’s say that is true, I would still estimate that in the vast majority of hetero male-centered porn, I’d say 99%, the female characters enjoy themselves. Unrealistically enjoy themselves, of course. I maintain that it is a common thread that runs through all sorts of porn, from the most over-the-top hard core to the most sentimental, loving, nurturing erotica.
That Guy,
I don’t think you’re so different from other men in terms of literally buying the fantasy when you are watching it. It wouldn’t turn you on if you couldn’t buy into the plausibility of it for the moment you’re enjoying it. Where we differ is that you don’t think it’s troublesome and to me, as a woman, it is. The women in the porn aren’t portrayed as loving it out of some benevolent desire to pleasure women or to really engage with real women’s needs. At the end of the day, even the woman’s portrayal of loving everything that is happening to her is still about *him*. Her pleasure is mearly a side affect of what a stud *he* is. The men don’t have to work that hard in porn. They can do any screwed up thing they want to a woman and she will smile and moan and take it, all the while acting like it’s the most wonderful thing ever. Reinforcing that this is how women receive pleasure, and even convincing ourselves that this is female sexuality. The consistent visuals and masturbation creates strong links in your brain that have nothing to do with what real women actually want but only have to do what porn marketers are selling you and what men buy into.
You claim that any man that gets ideas from porn on how to please his women in real life is an idiot yet you also claim that asking your partner to do something in porn is okay, maybe even desired. Please explain how that works out. It’s okay to ask your partner to do something in porn even thought we all admit that gettting ideas on how to please women through porn is idiotic?
Once again, you state that you’re not sure it’s the fault of the porn industry. Yeah, I guess the porn industry is really just this benevolent kind corporation that wants to give men a little pleasure and relief from their daily duties of being stuck with average women that actually require things from them. The porn industry is just there to help you out. LIke a good old friend. They can’t be held accountable for how they end up portraying sexuality. They are just trying to make men happy after all. I wonder why you even care to stick up for the industry so much to make the point that it’s not their “fault”.
I think there is not just a general lack of cunnlingus in porn, I think there is a general lack of anything that brings women real pleasure in porn. Do I think you can find cunnlinigus vidoes? I have no doubt you can. But I bet there are 5+ oral performed on men then the reverse. Men don’t much care about seeing women pleasured when it comes to porn in real authentic ways. Sure, they want to see the fireworks and the show about a female orgasm. But they don’t really want to see it happen in a way that involves considering the female partner. Especially since you even acknowledge that it’s idiotic to look to porn as a means to find ways to please women. They just want to see the female actress make a big show of her enjoyment even if nothing that happening to her is really all that pleasurable for a real woman. So I am not in agreement that because these movies project the female character as loving what happening to her, that it makes it all okay how women are treated in porn and what men are *really* getting off to through porn.
Yes, I acknowledge that some people enjoy being called names in the context of their personal and private sexual play. However, we aren’t mearly talking about what goes in the privacy of someone’s bedroom. We are talking about a billion dollar industry that often can’t call women anything better then sluts and whores. And by feeding the image that this is what women enjoys, we are buying that kind of propaganda. What people do in their bedroom is their choice. How women are projected as often loving their own verbal debasement is another. And further, I actually wonder how many women would actually like being called names during sex if porn wasn’t such a big promoter of it. If we didn’t have porn that often referred to women in negative names, do you think the same amount of women would get off to being called names? I don’t. And I say this because when I was younger I use to spend time looking at porn trying to figure out what men wanted so I could be the girl men wanted. I didn’t know much about sex and when I discovered men had this whole other world that projected images about what was “sexy” to them, I was interested in learning what men wanted from me and fitting that image. And in my younger years, I conformed to that kind of sexuality because my partners praised me for it and I was desperate to be liked be my boyfriends. And I was too young and immature to know what real relationships where about. But now that I’m older, I realize that I bought into the images just as much as they did. And I wonder how many other young women found themselves in the same spot. How man young men found themselves in the same spot. And I often wonder what my sexuality would have been when I was younger, if I never new porn existed. How many women *really* like being called demeaning names during sex vs. how many women bought into this idea about their sexuality that them being verbally abused and belitted was sexy. Because lets not pretty it up any other way. Name calling is infact a form of verbal abuse. Whether someone is getting off to it or not.
You see no issue with a billion dollar setting up male sexual fantasies and naturally I disagree. The porn industry isn’t there to help all the poor horny men out there. It’s there to make a buck. It prays on male sexuality to do that. And it exploits that sexuality. It reduces men to being no better then their lust and it depicts women that we all admit aren’t that healthy. And since it’s a competitive business, each porn agency is always pushing the envelop for the shock factor to keep the viewers coming back. Sexual fantasy is natural. But what is portrayed in porn isn’t just sexual fantasy. And we have more men today looking at more porn then any other generation before.
I stand by my point that you can both consent and be degraded at the same time. Sometimes people get off on the degradation because of deep physiological issues. Men in modern sitcoms can often be portrayed poorly. Just because the male actor consents to be in that role doesn’t mean the portrayl is any less degrading to the general idea of what a man is.
There is a difference between understanding that younger people can be beautiful and continually indulging in a medium that supports an ideal about a woman’s worth in her age or body. I can recognize a good looking young man or woman. But I am not sitting around masturbating to them. And when men do, they are telling their wives or girlfriends something specific about how they feel about their worth as women. If men were interested in women their own age, then that’s the kind of women they would be looking at. But because porn supports a very narrow idea about woman’s age, women are told by society and by their own men in their lives that they become worth less to them as they age. Further, it’s a bit lazy and narcissistic to sit back and ask women to be more confident in themselves while men are giving them clear messages about their worth and justifying their own indulgences in youthful women. I don’t think porn allows for men to look at women any other way then through their looks. I don’t think porn allows men to grow in their sexuality. And I do think men, just like women, are able to grow in it.
You seem to be saying that because the female actresses are actiing like they enjoy everything that’s happening to them, then it makes everything else done to a woman in porn okay. So it’s okay to abuse or mock women verbally in porn as long as she is playing the role that she loves everything going on. And as a woman, that kind of thinking makes me really sad. You admit it’s fantasy. You admit you buy into it. You even admit that no man should learn ways to treat women from porn. And yet, for you, it’s all okay because the female “actress” is portraying the images that she is loving it. And that’s the downward slope we have. It’s not about real women or their real enjoyment. It’s just about the pleasure you as a man get from porn and the fake ideals you are buying into about female sexuality.
Erin,
Thank you for the fuller exploration. I think I see more clearly. Let me try to summarize some points of agreement and disagreement and see where that takes the conversation.
Where we agree (even if I gave a false impression otherwise):
Porn produced for hetero males focuses on what pleases men more than what pleases women.
It is intended to be a fantasy, usually very simplistic, not a very realistic portrayal of men and women engaged in everyday sexual intimacy.
Porn is a massive industry, heavily competitive, generally driven by the profit motive.
If one were to evaluate this porn on the basis of the accuracy of its portrayal of women and women’s pleasure, or on the basis of how representative it is as a sample of human sexuality, it would fail those tests miserably.
If a person watched porn and *expected* sex to be just like that, that person will likely be deeply disappointed, whether that person is male or female. Judging one’s body by what you see in porn videos is a recipe for unrealistic expectations, for men and women.
I’m guessing we both think that much of the time people spend viewing porn would be better spent reading a good newspaper, taking a class, helping the less fortunate, all sorts of things.
Where we disagree (I think):
I can see how it looks like a logical contradiction to say that porn is fantasy and also a source of ideas for real-life couples. I don’t think it’s completely contradictory to say that porn is an unrealistic fantasy world and at the same time a possible source of inspiration for real-life sexuality. Some aspects of sexual fantasy just won’t work in any circumstances, and some may work in some circumstances. The difference I see is the difference between, on the one hand, expecting and demanding that life imitate the movies, and on the other hand, mentioning to your partner what some of your fantasies are and requesting some collaboration in exploring the possibility of making them happen.
I don’t think of an industry that caters to sexual fantasies, even one that generates sexual fantasies, even one that generates disturbing fantasies, as inherently bad. The fact that it is sexuality driven by profit motive does not really bother me. The size of the porn industry does not really bother me, considering that we’re talking about an industry hooked into human sexuality, which is a huge presence in human societies. It would be strange if it were NOT very large in a world so saturated with media and mass-produced images.
I don’t think of objectification as inherently degrading or always bad. I kind of think it’s in the nature of (male?) masturbatory fantasies, with or without porn, to focus on other people’s bodies and body parts. Within a sexual fantasy, other people exist as sexual beings. I don’t think it’s misogynistic to imagine having sex with a woman and in that imagining devote no attention to her intellect, sense of humor, humanitarian sensitivity, spirituality, career accomplishments, etc. This is “reducing” other people to sexual entities in ways that please the imaginer. It does overlook the complexity and depth that is possible to see in other human beings. Guilty as charged. Masturbatory fantasies do tend to be narrowly focused, at least in my experience. If a man only saw women as sex objects and never anything else, that would be misogynistic.
I don’t think it’s necessarily bad that any particular porn production is only focused on what pleases a male viewer and not a female viewer. I don’t think it’s bad when a piece of porn shows a female character enjoying something that most women would not enjoy. Porn is often a misrepresentation of real-life people, but I would say most fantastic imaginings are misrepresentations of reality.
I think you make good points but why do (some) men enjoy the idea that women enjoy being degraded or abused? That’s very strange to me. If it was just about watching women enjoying themselves, then slapping her around wouldn’t be necessary.
“If it was just about watching women enjoying themselves, then slapping her around wouldn’t be necessary.”
This specific sex act was introduced to me by a former female partner. I enjoyed it because she enjoyed it. It really is that simple. It isn’t just an “idea.” In many cases, it’s reality!
Granted, there are women who enjoy being abused. However, I’m not really talking about consensual BDSM relationships but the guys who are sitting at home enjoying the fantasy of abusing women. Most of those men, I suspect, are not in safe, sane and consensual BDSM relationships. They are just getting off on the idea of treating women like sh$t. That makes me think, why? Admittedly I haven’t watched tons of hardcore porn but my impression is that the fantasy of hurting women or doing things against their will IS a big part of a lot of porn that’s out there. Wanting to hurt something comes from a place that’s negative, angry and hostile towards women (how could it not), not a place that’s positive, loving and affectionate towards women. To the extent the porn stars appear to enjoy it or have orgasms from the abuse, maybe that helps alleviate some of the guilt men feel about their enjoyment of seeing women being hurt. I guess it just disturbs me that so many men, at least based on the popularity of the genre of abusive, misogynistic porn, are harboring secret feelings of hatred and hostility toward women. I’m sure we could talk forever about why that is, but nevertheless it does disturb me. I don’t want to associate with anyone who has that level of anger at me!! If I were Jewish I wouldn’t want to be in relationships with anti-Semites, if I were African American I would avoid racists, as a woman I’d like to avoid men with misogynistic tendencies. Somehow we give men a “pass” on their misogyny if it is a sexual fantasy, but I’m not sure I see the difference.
I agree with what you said Jill. And I really believe deep in my heart that if porn was switched around in some alternate universe where instead porn was about calling men names, slapping them around, using them for their money; and then turning to our husbands and boyfriends and son’s and fathers and claiming we really had respect for men, that would be a HUGE disconnect and not fair to the men in our lives. Whether we used that material for 5 seconds, 5 minutes or an hour. Wheter we tucked our sons in lovingly or not. And when these misognistic themes are pointed out that drives porn, a lot of guys come back with either the idea that they apparently have found the magical porn where the women are treated with respect and it’s all about mutual pleasure and not young busty 20 year olds and that’s the only porn they are watching or they come back with the very limited niche porn that shows men being submissive. Which again, is still porn that still created mostly for men. If 1/3 of women are watching porn, even less are watching porn of men being submissive. Showing women loving their own abuse whether it’s verbal, emotional or physical would be like showing men loving their own desbasement when women use then for money and nothing else. I really wish more people would try to understand that.
Most of those men, I suspect, are not in safe, sane and consensual BDSM relationships. They are just getting off on the idea of treating women like sh$t.
I’m curious as to how you think that most men actually get off on harming women.
Somehow we give men a “pass” on their misogyny if it is a sexual fantasy, but I’m not sure I see the difference.
I the difference that unlike a black person avoiding racists there is absolutely no safe, consensual, positive context for type of behavior (well at least to me there isn’t). On the other hand there are safe, consensual, positive contexts for that type of behavior when it comes to porn/sex. Its one thing to think that there isn’t (and you’re free to think that if you wish) and quite another to take that belief that there isn’t and blanketly state that anyone who is into that behavior harbors ill will towards women, which a lot of peole seem to be doing.
If I sat around masturbating to images of men being called names, and instead of being used for sex, they were being used for money, then kicked out for the next guy that could be sucked dry for his money, and all these men were projected as loving this treatment and getting fulfillment out; I don’t think there is a man here that would think I had much respect men. Would you take me seriously as a potential mate knowing this part of how my mind was working Danny?
Actually I might because there is a chance that what you masturbating to actually doesn’t translate into what you really think about men. Just like it is with men and porn. Yeah some of them really don’t think highly of women and that is a serious problem. However as has been said time and time again a person’s taste in porn (or sex for that matter) isn’t the tell all map to their personality. I don’t have a problem with you questioning it (because in your reveresed hypothetical I’d be questioning it too). The difference I wouldn’t just outright dismiss you simply because of the porn you get down with (unless it were something that has absolutely no positive context like sex with under aged kids and recordings of actual rapes).
Actually, if I enjoyed such material, it would infact translate a portion of what I really thought about men. I might still sit down to family dinners with my farther and brother and bake my boyfriend a cake but clearly a portion of me thinks men are good for the money they can give me and the names i can call them. And that wouldn’t be heahtly. Living in those two different worlds and pretending that by seperating them, that how I treat the real men in my real live vs how I enjoy seeing men treated doesn’t say something about me. Would it say I was an evil person? No. But it would say something about my general beliefs about men. Despite how in the real world I treat men. It’s easy to treat people with surface respect when the reprcussions not to are greater. It’s difficult to turly have respect for someone. Anyone can pretend they respect someone or an entire gender. But do they really is the question. If i liked seeing men debased….that says something.
The fact that I don’t enjoy such material says that I don’t enjoy seeing men debased and I don’t like to partcipate in the debasement of men either.
I might still sit down to family dinners with my farther and brother and bake my boyfriend a cake but clearly a portion of me thinks men are good for the money they can give me and the names i can call them.
No that means that’s part of what you like to do in the bedroom. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that some part of you thinks that way of all men.
And the fact that I enjoy such behaviors in a consensual sexual setting doesn’t necessarily means that I enjoy seeing women being treated that way in actual noncensensual settings. Just as I like the idea of being sexual dominant with a woman in the bedroom I have no problem with the fact that not every woman is to be treated like a consensual sex parter and it certainly doesn’t mean that violating a woman is okay. (At the same time I like the idea of being sexually dominated by a woman in the bedroom, does that hint towards me being a self-loathing doormat for women?)
There is no pretending that they are two separate worlds because in this case they are two separate worlds.
Its good that you are questioning these things. There are indeed folks who do try to pass off their desires to mistreat women and harbor ill will towards them as just sex. And those things do need to be sorted out. But the “do you really though?” response after being given an answer that’s not the answer you’re looking for can only be stretched out so far.
Erin, have you ever been in family court? Or had a male friend who was going through a divorce? Or read personal ads by women? If you really don’t think many women still view men as good for their money and resources (or, the more PC term, “lifestyle”, “stability”, “security”, “accomplished”, etc buzzwords that are used), then you’re living in some kind of feminist delusion. Because the truth is that there is really nothing in marriage for men anymore, women don’t come with a dowry these days, and the little government permission slip/binding contract says nothing about love or respect on it, and yet women still are the ones who pressure men to matrimony. Why? If women were devoid of this impulse and thinking nobody would ever get married. There would be no point.
I have no clue what you’re talking about J Sebastain. I don’t understand what the issue of hte court system and how it treats men when marriages go sour have to do with how women are represented through porn.
I do think women can behave horribly when it comes to taking advantage of men in the courts. My Uncle had it happen to him and he is still my Uncle. I don’t even talk to my aunt anymore or call her aunt.
I don’t sit around jacking off to male debasement. I don’t think it’s asking too much for men to do the same. I don’t sit around jacking off the shallow things women can want men for (like money) and I think it’s crappy when we defend men doing the same with women, such as using them for their bodies and looks.
It’s very important to recognize the difference between porn and erotica, the latter being respectful of all parties involved. The “frescos of Pompeii” mentioned in the article are erotica, not porn. Porn is characterized by exploitation and victimization of one or more of the people involved in the sexual act. In this day and age, it is possible to make both porn and erotica, but we MUST understand that there is a difference between the two and that one should not mistake healthy sexual imagery and video for that which is abusive and demeaning.
If this is the same Marie that posted earlier, I am most surprised to find myself agreeing with you, but I have to admit I do agree somewhat with this distinction. I think there is something to this difference. (I think Gloria Steinem most famously made a similar distinction many years ago, and I often disagree with her, to put it mildly.) These are some categories we could start to work with, which could be useful for navigating this terrain. I think there are clear members of a “porn” category and clear members of an “erotica” category.
The difficulty is in the massive gray area in between, or in limiting all sexually explicit cultural expressions into only those two categories. We have to work within a pretty big subjective range in talking about sex in the media. If anyone pretended these are clearly demarcated categories, I would find that absurd.
I do like the idea of starting a conversation with “okay, here’s what I think is healthy, because _____, and here’s what I think is unhealthy, because _____, but I’m curious to hear what do you think.”
That’s more constructive and realistic than saying, “all you people are horrible, that’s just the way it is.” Or, “if you don’t think like I do you are deeply disturbed.”
Danny said: “No that means that’s part of what you like to do in the bedroom. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that some part of you thinks that way of all men.”
Of course there would be a part of me that thought that way about men. Even if I was making a seperation between how it’s okay to treat men in real life and how it’s okay to treat men in fantasy. Those two parts make up who I am. And the later is very unflattering.
Danny: “And the fact that I enjoy such behaviors in a consensual sexual setting doesn’t necessarily means that I enjoy seeing women being treated that way in actual noncensensual settings.”
Enjoying seeing women treated a certain way that pleases *you* best first, through a male dominated industry, while they are *acting* out a male dominated fantasy is not the same as enjoying in a mutual satisfying experience with a real woman Danny. Please, lets not forget that the women in porn are acting. Please stop projecting your fantasies on the women you are watching and assume that this is what their sexuality really is outside the porn world. You like seeing women enjoying something *you* like. It has nothing to do with really wanting to know what these women really like. You’re buying the fantasy porn is projecting.
Danny: There is no pretending that they are two separate worlds because in this case they are two separate worlds.
And that’s where we disagree. Putting women in little boxes and roles for your own purposes doesn’t seem to be about respect to me. It seems to be about projecting women into little roles that best please you. Real woman for one thing. Fanatasy women for another. And you dislike the idea that that says anything about you. But it does.
Enjoying seeing women treated a certain way that pleases *you* best first, through a male dominated industry, while they are *acting* out a male dominated fantasy is not the same as enjoying in a mutual satisfying experience with a real woman Danny.
Explain.
Please, lets not forget that the women in porn are acting. Please stop projecting your fantasies on the women you are watching and assume that this is what their sexuality really is outside the porn world. You like seeing women enjoying something *you* like. It has nothing to do with really wanting to know what these women really like. You’re buying the fantasy porn is projecting.
I’ll stop this so called projection as soon as you prove that no woman can be into things like that.
And that’s where we disagree. Putting women in little boxes and roles for your own purposes doesn’t seem to be about respect to me. It seems to be about projecting women into little roles that best please you.
No projection would doing those things to them even when they don’t want to or trying to coerce them into things they have doubts about or trying to force my way through their hesitations. If she doesn’t want to do then it doesn’t happen.
Real woman for one thing. Fanatasy women for another. And you dislike the idea that that says anything about you. But it does.
No I dislike the way that you are deciding what it says about me despite my trying to tell you what it says about me.
You say you want to have the conversation but when someone gives an answer you do like you just decide on your own that they are wrong.
Correction:
You say you want to have the conversation but when someone gives an answer you do not like you just decide on your own that they are wrong.
I never claimed that no woman could be into the things projected in porn. What I said is that we can’t both describe porn as fantasy and then say that becaue the female in the movie is “acting” like it’s grea, or that a woman can enjoy an act shown in porn in her real life, that porn is about what women want or that it’s even about relating to women.
You said: “No projection would doing those things to them even when they don’t want to or trying to coerce them into things they have doubts about or trying to force my way through their hesitations. If she doesn’t want to do then it doesn’t happen.”
That’s not projection, that’s called rape. Putting women into boxes based on their purpose to you doesn’t have anything to do with rape or coercing them.
You said: “You say you want to have the conversation but when someone gives an answer you do like you just decide on your own that they are wrong.”
You have your ideas and I have mine. Certain things I say don’t sway your opinion and vice versa. No need to act like not changing my mind on a topic is specific to me. You have strong ideas yourself and nothing I say is going to hange that either. And that’s fine. I’m not going to accuse you of thinking what you want to think just because you don’t like my answers. That would be unfair.
That’s not projection, that’s called rape. Putting women into boxes based on their purpose to you doesn’t have anything to do with rape or coercing them.
Which is why I didn’t say rape. As you say you find those acts degrading and won’t participate in them. There are men who would specifically seek you out for that exact reason just as there are men that respect you and your sexual tastes enough to leave you be after asking/offering. In fact I think you’ve said in another thread that you’ve had men try to introduce those things I’ll bet some of them persisted even after you said no.
For instance let’s say you are all for having sex but absolutely refuse to let a man ejaculate on any spot on your body (this is hypothetical so obviously you don’t have to tell what your stance on that is, I’m just making an example) because its degrading/disgusting/etc… You tell him you don’t do that and despite your refusal he goes and does it anyway just because you said you find it degrading. I would not say he raped you but he most certainly did something that you expressly said no on (as in no consent). That’s what I mean.
No need to act like not changing my mind on a topic is specific to me. You have strong ideas yourself and nothing I say is going to hange that either. And that’s fine. I’m not going to accuse you of thinking what you want to think just because you don’t like my answers. That would be unfair.
Despite you implying that by having some interest in those acts I harbor some ill will towards women despite me saying I don’t? And who say anything about acting like it was specific to you?
Danny, I don’t even understand why you are talking about someone doing something nonconsently to someone else! This has nothing to do with what I said. I said that men place women into boxes based on what purpose they serve. Women in porn are clearly placed in one box and serve their purpose and gfs and wives are placed in another, also serving a purpose. And many men seem to want to use both for their own desires. You came back about comments about consent or nonconsent and I’m really confused why that was even your response. It’s like we are having two different conversations.
Further, how I’ve interrupted it, you seem to think that the only way someone can be degraded is if they don’t consent to something. And I think that’s untrue. You can degrade someone with their consent. It happens to men in sitcoms that showcase a dumb dad but a smart in control wife. Those men acting that part are consenting to the portrayl of their degradement.
Ironically, with your reference to something that isn’t rape but is nonconsent, sometimes in the bedroom guys don’t even ASK you if you want to do something, they just assume because they’ve seen it so much in porn, they assume that it’s just “normal” and you’re gonna “love it” too. If you don’t think that’s happening, then you are 100% wrong. I bet my experience in this isn’t far off from other women. I bet it’s especially true for younger women. When I was younger my desire to please was far greater then considering what pleasure I was actually getting out of the experience. And apparently, that was just fine by the guys I dated because they didn’t much ask me what really brought me pleasure. They just assumed things because they had been so damn brainwashed by how porn portrayed sex. They didn’t want my sexuality to be different then what they had seen in the movies because in the movies, it was way more exciting. So men give you accolades for doing things more like “pornstars” then they give you accolades for being real to yourself.
Danny: “Despite you implying that by having some interest in those acts I harbor some ill will towards women despite me saying I don’t? And who say anything about acting like it was specific to you?”
I don’t think you’re a bad guy Danny. I don’t even think you’re a misognist. I just think there is a disconnect in society with this topic of porn. Despite the taboo of what porn is, I can’t tell you how many men in regular conversations have reference it to me in casual passing. It’s become a big part of people’s lives. Couldn’t you agree that men are looking at more porn now then they were just 20 years ago? Wives and gfs are suppose to sit by and just understand that their man *needs* this medium to manage through his life with her. That he sometimes just *needs* to escape the pressure of real life, their relationship included, in the virtual arms of other women. And you can gaurentee in most cases these other women are going to offer more variety, more beauty, more craziness and are going to moan and coo even as they are being called names, being treated not for pleasure but for the pleasure their bodies offer the men that is consuming them visually. From 12 to the day a man dies, he’s pretty much looking at the same porn he was looking at as a teenager. And women are just suppose to sit and smile and think men have respect for their relationships or for women in general? You want to be able to enjoy the things you enjoy that you agree you get pleasure out of because of the dominant, and degrading, themes in them. But you also want women to think you don’t have respect for them despite your interest in material that couldn’t be the furthest thing from respect in women. It’s just not a black and white issue to me. I don’t think you hate women but there is a general lack of respect for women too through porn. And I don’t think it’s fair to complete seperate us from it, especially if you are someone using it. And I’m not even againt men being dominate. I like a dominate guy in the bedroom. But porn doesn’t just portray dominance. And it doesn’t even portray *good* dominance in my opinion. To me, when a man is dominante, it’s about being in control but respecting your partner even more because you have that control. And that’s about as far as how porn portrays porn as you can get.
No I don’t think consent is the sole ingredient but I do beleive it plays a part in it. That’s why I bring it up. Its going to mean a difference in who finds what degrading.
Ironically, with your reference to something that isn’t rape but is nonconsent, sometimes in the bedroom guys don’t even ASK you if you want to do something, they just assume because they’ve seen it so much in porn, they assume that it’s just “normal” and you’re gonna “love it” too. If you don’t think that’s happening, then you are 100% wrong.
We may not be on the same wave length but I’m really hoping that you know that I am aware that stuff like that happens. It most certainly does and as far as I can tell I haven’t said it doesn’t. Its one thing to be interested in it but its quite another to buy into the idea that that is the norm that everyone does.
Wives and gfs are suppose to sit by and just understand that their man *needs* this medium to manage through his life with her. That he sometimes just *needs* to escape the pressure of real life, their relationship included, in the virtual arms of other women.
No I don’t expect them to just sit by and and just understand. Its a two way street (because two people are involved). And if she does have a problem with it by all means say something. But when questioned why is there the persistent implication that there must be something wrong with having an interest in those things?
You want to be able to enjoy the things you enjoy that you agree you get pleasure out of because of the dominant, and degrading, themes in them. But you also want women to think you don’t have respect for them despite your interest in material that couldn’t be the furthest thing from respect in women.
Because I believe such a thing is possible. Maybe not with you. Maybe not with a portion of women or men. But I do believe that with some portion of people it is possible if for no other reason that what different people call degrading.
It’s just not a black and white issue to me. I don’t think you hate women but there is a general lack of respect for women too through porn.
I agree that it does exist. However you say on one hand you don’t think I hate women but then say that having an interest in certain acts implies that I don’t respect them.
And I don’t think it’s fair to complete seperate us from it, especially if you are someone using it.
I disagree with you. I believe its entirely possible to have an interest in some of those activities (and I mean some) and still be able to respect women. Of course I don’t pretend to be the all knowing authority on it but at the same time that doesn’t mean that anything I have to say is invalid.
To me, when a man is dominante, it’s about being in control but respecting your partner even more because you have that control. And that’s about as far as how porn portrays porn as you can get.
I agree its about the respect but I just don’t think its right to just declare that porn as a whole does not allow for that.
Is it possible for people to go into the places you’re talking about? Most certainly is and it happens to lots of people. Does that inherently mean that its impossible have an interest in those activities without going to those places? I believe so.
Danny, again, consent doesn’t mean you aren’t infact degrading someone. Their consent doesn’t mean they don’t infact want to be degraded..But once again, what two people do between themselves is up to them. What goes in with porn is another matter. The consent of the actress to portray a role doesn’t say anything about the projections and attitudes porn often upholds about women.
Danny: “Its one thing to be interested in it but its quite another to buy into the idea that that is the norm that everyone does.”
Well I personally think that’s already happened. In my own experience, I see alot of men that have bought into the idea that what happens in porn should be the “norm”, or if not the norm, the kind of stuff they want to make the norm in their own bedroom. Like I said, sometimes men don’t even ask you anymore if you want to do something, they just freaking assume you do because they’ve been brainwashed by porn. And I know no man wants to believe that’s true but it’s happened enough in my own life that it is a very real reality. And I bet it’s not so far off from the experiences of other women either.
Danny: “No I don’t expect them to just sit by and and just understand. Its a two way street (because two people are involved).”
Apparently a part of men do want this Danny. Time and time again women are told over and over again how they are not enough alone and how men just *need* porn to manage through their lives with one woman. Apparently men just want women to put shit eaten grins on their face OR, even better, they want them to watch porn with them! Because what is better then watching your man get excited over some 20 year old girl kissing another 20 year old girl.
Danny: “But when questioned why is there the persistent implication that there must be something wrong with having an interest in those things?”
Because usually the things that are done in porn have nothing to do with things that bring about real pleasure for women. It’s all about the pomp and circumstance, the show, the man behind the curtain. It’s not how men and women really relate to each other. It’s not even about how men and women should relate to each other. And I personally think it gives men an excuse to further disassociate themselves from women and their messy feelings vs. putting women in the role of sex toy first. Porn is no about connection, it’s about disconnection.
Danny: “Because I believe such a thing is possible. Maybe not with you. Maybe not with a portion of women or men. But I do believe that with some portion of people it is possible if for no other reason that what different people call degrading.”
It’s funny. There is no other social group you could treat thus and still expect others to think you had respect for the social group you were discriminating against. No one would believe that I had respect for African American people if in my off time when I didn’t associate with African Americans in the real world, I was viewing material about their enslavement and loving it. No one would believe that I respected Jewish people if in my off time when I didn’t associate with Jewish people I was viewing material that was degrading to them. Perhaps society has become deadened to certain gender themes because they are just so abundant. So we lie to ourselves and try to convince ourselves that we can treat a certain group one way through a medium while we put on a face value of respect for them in public. I’m not so sure anyone can really dissociate themselves that much. Especially with material that shows strong themes for young men about women that men start looking at in their young teen years.
Danny: “I agree that it does exist. However you say on one hand you don’t think I hate women but then say that having an interest in certain acts implies that I don’t respect them.”
I don’t say this to disrespect you but that’s how it appears to me. I question just how much respect men can really possibly have for women if the things they enjoy about women are seeing them degraded or humiliated or treated a certain way that has very little to do with treating women like people and like equals.
Danny: “I disagree with you. I believe its entirely possible to have an interest in some of those activities (and I mean some) and still be able to respect women. Of course I don’t pretend to be the all knowing authority on it but at the same time that doesn’t mean that anything I have to say is invalid.”
I certainly don’t think what you have to say is invalid. Anymore then what I have to say. We both have our opinions on this and we don’t agree.
I just wonder at what point it stops. I think even you can admit that men are looking at more porn then they use to.
Danny: “I agree its about the respect but I just don’t think its right to just declare that porn as a whole does not allow for that.”
Porn doesn’t allow for respect. But since it’s about the lack of respect women deserve most of the time, It’s not anything you as a man really have to worry about. It’s just not fun being on the end that always represented like your lower then shit. Like you’re just a couple of holes and nice pair of breasts who enjoys nothing but your own physical, emotional or verbal debasement. But again, not really something you as a man have to worry about much when it comes to porn.
Funny how the pro-porn “feminist” point of view conveniently ignores the fact that the vast majority of porn is increasing violent and degrading to women and invariably focused on male pleasure with female pleasure merely being an extention of it. That and the fact that hardcore pornography is easily accessible to children old enough to navigate a web page. Also, this “analysis” ignores the perspectives of women in the industry and the harm they are at risk of; anal prolapse for instance, caused by extreme anal penetration. Do these women matter *at all*? does the fact that sexual abusers often use porn to desensitize their victims to specific sex acts have any relevance? The pro-porn “feminist” movement blindly ignores all the harms of pornography while focusing on potential benefits which have no empirical evidence to support them. The vast majority of porn isn’t sex positive or queer friendly, it’s total obfuscation to suggest that when it’s virtually non existent.
No they don’t ignore it. They just know well enough to not presume that porn equals male desire to abuse.
Linnea, I think some of these objections are overhyped or perhaps myths. There is no evidence of an epidemic of “anal prolapse” in the porn industry despite the fact most female performers engage in anal sex. Why? Because most aren’t doing anything that normal, non-porn receivers of anal sex do. Women are far more likely to suffer from anal prolapse than men but that has very little to do with being an anal sex recipient. Instead it has to do with the ravages of childbirth and age and hemorrhoids and such things. Otherwise we’d see the same or in fact much much higher rates of prolapse in the gay population and we don’t.
I think what the pro-porn feminist viewpoint focuses on is the “mainstream” inherent nature of porn. Like any product, its producers have figured out what consumers want and produced the content to meet that demand. I reject the thesis that mainstream porn is abusive and/or violent – “degrading” I think is a label that often comes from a biased place, and seems to incorporate nearly exclusively a personal and often emotional perspective rather than an objective one, so I am not really sure it can be applied without introducing the bias of the person applying the label.
As for people abusing porn (for example, to “normalize” an abusive relationship by attempting to desensitize the victim to extreme sex) I suppose it happens. But that isn’t the primary use of porn, either by single or partnered men, and I believe that the article here reflects an awareness of that, not as a conscious effort to “ignore” any fringes or niches, but merely to focus on the main, general use of porn.
In my personal experience, very little porn is abusive. Except for porn that is produced to meet the demand for the BDSM niche. There are sites like that. But most porn is not niche porn. And even a lot of niche porn falls into the mainstream category (as a “fetish”, which is basically something that fetishists focus on but that might also be found in the mainstream from time to time as an occasional practice, ie role-playing, or “MILF/Cougar” stuff) and doesn’t have any BDSM connections. I’d say that in this context, the vast majority of porn is mainstream, not the other way around.
Erin:
Well I personally think that’s already happened. In my own experience, I see alot of men that have bought into the idea that what happens in porn should be the “norm”, or if not the norm, the kind of stuff they want to make the norm in their own bedroom. Like I said, sometimes men don’t even ask you anymore if you want to do something, they just freaking assume you do because they’ve been brainwashed by porn. And I know no man wants to believe that’s true but it’s happened enough in my own life that it is a very real reality. And I bet it’s not so far off from the experiences of other women either.
Yes that does happen with some men. I don’t recall saying I don’t believe it to be true.
Apparently a part of men do want this Danny. Time and time again women are told over and over again how they are not enough alone and how men just *need* porn to manage through their lives with one woman. Apparently men just want women to put shit eaten grins on their face OR, even better, they want them to watch porn with them! Because what is better then watching your man get excited over some 20 year old girl kissing another 20 year old girl.
I think we’ve alreaady agreed that this does indeed happen.
Because usually the things that are done in porn have nothing to do with things that bring about real pleasure for women. It’s all about the pomp and circumstance, the show, the man behind the curtain. It’s not how men and women really relate to each other. It’s not even about how men and women should relate to each other. And I personally think it gives men an excuse to further disassociate themselves from women and their messy feelings vs. putting women in the role of sex toy first. Porn is no about connection, it’s about disconnection.
Yes that can happen and does happen.
I don’t say this to disrespect you but that’s how it appears to me. I question just how much respect men can really possibly have for women if the things they enjoy about women are seeing them degraded or humiliated or treated a certain way that has very little to do with treating women like people and like equals.
Sure go ahead an question it. But there’s no point in questioning until you get the answer that you want.
I certainly don’t think what you have to say is invalid. Anymore then what I have to say. We both have our opinions on this and we don’t agree. I just wonder at what point it stops. I think even you can admit that men are looking at more porn then they use to.
Never said they didn’t.
Porn doesn’t allow for respect.
I think it can. Not a blanket it does or it doesn’t.
But since it’s about the lack of respect women deserve most of the time, It’s not anything you as a man really have to worry about.
Find me where I said they deserve that disrepect. And it is something to worry about. But that worry isn’t going to get far if you start off presuming that watching porn means you don’t have respect for women.
It’s just not fun being on the end that always represented like your lower then shit. Like you’re just a couple of holes and nice pair of breasts who enjoys nothing but your own physical, emotional or verbal debasement. But again, not really something you as a man have to worry about much when it comes to porn.
Put words in my mouth and then wonder why I’m reluctant to share your worry. Nice.
I didn’t put words in your mouth. Quite honestly, you don’t have to worry about porn because you’re not really the gender being shown in a secondary position 9 times out of 10.
Erin, I understand your ire and that it comes from previous experiences since you mentioned it on another article’s comment section. I understand that men who were addicted to pornography hurt you by making you feel not only lesser than, but unnattractive stand -alone and an object.
BUT (and a huge but)
This isn’t the sentiment of all men who watch pornography. And though other posters have said so, I’ll reiterate: there are actually niches (“genres” if you will that appeal to different folks’ tastes) where women are subjected to what many people wouldn’t subject themselves to–because they’ve consented and its their “thing” (just like you maybe wouldn’t like anal penetration but some women actually really like it) and YES–even stuff where men are “dominated” and “humiliated”. Not just that but women doing it to other women. It’s called Femdom.
You can’t make a blanket statement about all “mainstream” porn, no more than I can say all pro sports is full of dopers and rapists who get off due to being valuable team members and having lots of money.
I also meant to add, that you can’t label all men who watch pornography a certain default way just like you can’t label all men who watch sports a certain way (beer guzzling and violent and/or stupid)..it just doesn’t work like that. Humans are all very complex.
I feel turned on now.
I agree with feminism in the sense of equality because it think all supremacy is totally immoral but feminism to some extent has been perverted and women have more rights. As for porn I think if it’s not coercive and not disturbing it’s good but not to the extent of not using you’re imagination and obviously actually having sex. Also I think some feminists being ideologues about is just as repressive.
Feminism was distorted because it became all about sex “equality” and not equality in places where it mattered, like the workforce, politics, economics, etc. Sex IS rape no matter how you look at it, and I for one prefer not to. It’s painful, it’s violating, it’s abusive and it downright HURTS. I don’t believe any person can rationally consent to sex because no one of a rational mindset willingly consents to abuse, and anyone who enjoys abusing people is a sadist and a psychopath and needs to be locked up in solitary if not given the chair.
On this point I volunteer a verse from an ancient Latin text (“De Finibus Bonorum et Malorum” / “The Extremes of Good and Evil”), on the nature of ethics, by the Roman orator Cicero, ca. 45. B.C. Some of you may recognize the text from its ubiquity on the modern web:
Latin: “Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit…”
Translation: “There is no one who loves pain itself, who seeks after it and wants to have it, simply because it is pain…”
In case you’re wondering where this came from, you might know it better as “Lorem Ipsum,” otherwise known as “dummy text.” Well, I think that’s pretty appropriate for the context of the discussion. Anyone who loves sex itself, who seeks after it and wants to have it, simply because it is sex…
… is a dummy. So too is anyone who condones it.
The birds and bees, therefore, “is a tale, told by an IDIOT, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” (“Macbeth,” 5:5) To bird or not to bee, in paraphrase of Shakespeare (another great chronicler of our depraved, cursed humanity), is the question. And the answer is NO — I say no and I do NOT mean yes.
You ought to be ASHAMED of yourself, and so should everyone on this board writing in defence of such abhorrent behavior. One of these days your culture of depravity and pleasure will fall and you will be imprisoned like that rampant pervert the Marquis De Sade. How will you like handcuffs then, huh? Everyone on this board ought to be sectioned in an insane asylum if not stuck with potassium chloride. One day there will be a Puritan revival in our society and all of you will be in jail if not executed for your participation in perversion. I look forward to the day when everyone who supports “exploration of fantasy” (YUCK!!!!) is having their posteriors forcibly explored in the ninth circle of hell. Grow up or get AIDS and die.