Jennifer Evans believes that porn provides a unique window into our most intimate thoughts and actions.
I am many things: a woman, an academic, a feminist, married, raising two girls, and I’m pro-porn. I’m also an expert in queer history, and write about men’s desire and sexual practices. How bizarre? No, actually, how utterly and completely normal.
I’ve been following this debate about pornography with relish. It proves a point I strive to make again and again in my undergraduate classes and in my own work. No matter on what side we find ourselves, when it comes to pornography, we just can’t help but talk about it. And by talking, debating, (and oftentimes disagreeing) we prove that porn provides a unique window into our most intimate thoughts and actions, our cultural beliefs—even high politics.
In fact, historians of sexuality will tell you that throughout time, erotica and pornography played a vital role in how people understood core aspects of themselves. Must this be a bad thing, lead to sinister outcomes, threaten the very stability of all we hold dear?
The obvious answer is no. Let’s not fall in to what experts call a “moral panic”—a heightened state of response dictated by emotion over evidence. Of course, it’s difficult not to see the mercury rise when discussing pornography. It’s a highly fraught terrain. Some might say a minefield, with deeply entrenched positions on both sides of the debate.
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My position is this: before we rush to judgment over “men’s true nature” and “women’s inherent opposition,” lets spell a few things out for discussion’s sake. First thing: we are not the first to debate the merits, impact, and utility of pornography. Anyone who has viewed the frescos of Pompeii knows what I mean here. What differs is that we are quick to see explicit sexual imagery as a sign of sign of something not quite right, something dangerous and in need of control.
If Michel Foucault is to be believed—the French philosopher whose writing helped birth the history of sexuality as a field—other cultures saw erotica as opening up much-needed discussion about mutuality—one’s likes and dislikes in the bedroom—and desire. Images provoked erotic play and negotiation, allowing, in an ideal sense, for an ethical and complimentary exploration of sexual wants and needs. Explicit images provided truths about our sexual selves.
Other cultures saw erotica as opening up much-needed discussion about mutuality—one’s likes and dislikes in the bedroom—and desire. Images provoked erotic play and negotiation, allowing, in an ideal sense, for an ethical and complimentary exploration of sexual wants and needs. Explicit images provided truths about our sexual selves.
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Sometime in the 19th century this changed. Suddenly, explicit images became evidence of the contagion within. Instead of promoting healthy discussion and debate, pornography was evidence of a tortured soul, painfully out of step with the newly important place of the middle-class family and the masculinities and femininities that buttressed it. Science and medicine—newly professionalized—schooled men ways to channel and repress their desire as self-mastery became an emblem of responsible manhood. Women were alternatively regarded as frigid, uninterested, or over-sexed, requiring the discipline of marriage and motherhood to overcome their extreme emotions.
Isn’t it funny to see some of these ideas still in effect today? Of course, the playing field is much different in the internet age, after the Sexual Revolution, with new forms of marriage increasingly the norm.
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But what would happen if we were to take up this issue of the merits of pornography as an entry in to an open engagement with the nature of desire?
Admittedly, we don’t even really know the scope of that with which we are dealing. The Newsweek article that Hugo Schwyzer cites in his recent article in here (“Are Most Men Like This?”) casts a pretty wide net in seeking to get at the truth about men’s motives for purchasing sex. There are also significant differences between accessing pornography on the computer at work and paying for a sexual encounter in a club, on the street, or abroad. Was the person underage? Were they suitably compensated for their sex work? Are there mandatory health checks on the work site? I won’t deal with these otherwise important questions here.
I am interested in the sense of panic surrounding allegations that “husbands and boyfriends, brothers and fathers, bosses and teachers, coaches and co-workers” are furtively consuming porn, and that this is having none other than a negative impact on otherwise healthy, happy relationships. Leaving the sex work issue aside, since it really deserves analysis on its own terms, what is at stake here really? Are all men secretly “doing it” (and women, by extension, not)? Must its impact necessarily be negative?
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While for most of the day, I do occupy a place high up the ivory tower, my research into real world consumption of pornography—queer erotic photography specifically—might yield some interesting food for thought.
There is actually a burgeoning discussion in academic circles about the merits of pornography as a teaching tool. Porn studies (“the porn curriculum” according to a 2006 Time report March 26, 2006) hasn’t yet swept college campuses, but it is an eligible field of study at many universities in Canada and the United States, where Laura Kipnis (of Northwestern) and Linda Williams (Berkeley) were among the first to apply a feminist analysis to it in the early 1990s. This alternative approach came of age in the context of the Catherine Mackinnon and Andrea Dworkin debate that pornography was at least partially to blame for sexual assault, since it dehumanized women in to objects of male sexual desire.
Kipnis and Williams, and pro-sex academic feminists like them, argue that pornography is a source like many others that yields insight in to a range of social issues, attitudes, and concerns, from poverty and class stratification to the media construction of taste. Asked whether it is prudent to show such explicit material to university students, Williams thinks it is instructive to probe, analyze, and test one’s limits. “Showing a film … allows them to react and then to take a step back and analyze their reaction with the critical tools you give them” (Time, March 26, 2006).
Sure, there’s a difference between viewing pornography in a controlled environment versus stealing a glance in one’s office cubicle. And Kipnis and Williams do not represent the only academic view on porn’s impact on today’s society. In Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality (Beacon Press, 2010), Gail Dines (Wheelock College, Boston) argues passionately that the images we confront online today are anything but “playful images that feed our sexual imaginations but materials products that depict a type of sex that is formulaic, generic, and plasticized.” (Gail Dines, “Adventures in Pornland” HuffPost Books, July 6, 2010). Having interviewed hundreds of college-age students, she argues that the porn industry has managed to color and shape “identities, sexualities, and ideas about intimacy, relationships, and connection.”
I don’t disagree that much of what is found online is repetitive trite. And I believe too that the industry would benefit from more feminist film making along the lines of work by feminist pornographer Tristan Taormino, who lets actors choose their own partners, showcases women’s pleasure, and ensures an equitable and safe work environment on set and on screen (http://www.puckerup.com/).
What I do disagree with is the lumping together of all forms of pornography, and, more importantly, the as-yet-unproven assumption that the outcome of viewing porn can only be dangerous, violent, and bad.
The truth is, we have entire bodies of work still trying to reconcile the impact of what we view on what we do. And we know even less in social-historical terms about the role of fantasy on our own developing sense of pleasure and identity. While we can’t know for certain the precise impact of pornography on day-to-day relationships, we can surmise a few things drawing on the literature in gay, lesbian, and queer studies, where much more research has been done.
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In GLBTQ studies, there are fewer taboos surrounding the place of pornography in shaping people’s desires. To the contrary, erotic photography, stories, and pornography represent a form of resistance to the status quo, and were often places of refuge and community in a hostile and homophobic age.
In my work on men and masculinity, I’ve found that homoerotic images bought and sold in the mail order trade were central avenues for questioning men to have their desires affirmed, molded, and shaped. Pornography bestowed a sense of belonging and refuge, and educated men about a form of desire that still could not speak its name in public.
For better or worse, the erotic arts are a source into our selves, giving us a clearer picture of what makes us tick, what we like and dislike, tolerate and abhor.
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Of course, all is not sunshine and roses even among queers. The spread and proliferation of pornographic images since the 1970s has been linked to greater body dissatisfaction in the GLBTQ community as the hairless, youthful ideal took hold in advertising campaigns and mainstream porn. But all is not lost; researchers in Germany are undertaking research to see how people are responding to these new beauty norms. Alongside youthful body ideals there is a huge and growing network of amateur pornographers, taking film, video, and snapshots of themselves to document their own body beautiful and resist the dominant gaze.
For better or worse, the erotic arts are a source into our selves, giving us a clearer picture of what makes us tick, what we like and dislike, tolerate and abhor. Still, the question remains: can pornography take us to a more ethical, equitable place of intimacy, bonding, pleasure, and exchange? I think the dirtiest little secret of all is, it could.
—Photo emelec/Flickr
You ought to be ASHAMED of yourself, and so should everyone on this board writing in defence of such abhorrent behavior. One of these days your culture of depravity and pleasure will fall and you will be imprisoned like that rampant pervert the Marquis De Sade. How will you like handcuffs then, huh? Everyone on this board ought to be sectioned in an insane asylum if not stuck with potassium chloride. One day there will be a Puritan revival in our society and all of you will be in jail if not executed for your participation in perversion. I look… Read more »
lmao
I know right? All I could think was Hail Satan, Fucking Christian. Go back to church.
I agree with feminism in the sense of equality because it think all supremacy is totally immoral but feminism to some extent has been perverted and women have more rights. As for porn I think if it’s not coercive and not disturbing it’s good but not to the extent of not using you’re imagination and obviously actually having sex. Also I think some feminists being ideologues about is just as repressive.
Feminism was distorted because it became all about sex “equality” and not equality in places where it mattered, like the workforce, politics, economics, etc. Sex IS rape no matter how you look at it, and I for one prefer not to. It’s painful, it’s violating, it’s abusive and it downright HURTS. I don’t believe any person can rationally consent to sex because no one of a rational mindset willingly consents to abuse, and anyone who enjoys abusing people is a sadist and a psychopath and needs to be locked up in solitary if not given the chair. On this point… Read more »
@Guest
Have you ever looked into asexuality?
Many people do, actually, want to have sex and seek it out for enjoyment. It’s something a lot of people truly love. If you don’t check out asexuality.org, though. It’s a great place (and I love your Scottish play reference!)
I feel turned on now.
Trackback Link…
[…]Here are some of the sites we recommend for our visitors[…]…
Erin: Well I personally think that’s already happened. In my own experience, I see alot of men that have bought into the idea that what happens in porn should be the “norm”, or if not the norm, the kind of stuff they want to make the norm in their own bedroom. Like I said, sometimes men don’t even ask you anymore if you want to do something, they just freaking assume you do because they’ve been brainwashed by porn. And I know no man wants to believe that’s true but it’s happened enough in my own life that it is… Read more »
I didn’t put words in your mouth. Quite honestly, you don’t have to worry about porn because you’re not really the gender being shown in a secondary position 9 times out of 10.
Erin, I understand your ire and that it comes from previous experiences since you mentioned it on another article’s comment section. I understand that men who were addicted to pornography hurt you by making you feel not only lesser than, but unnattractive stand -alone and an object. BUT (and a huge but) This isn’t the sentiment of all men who watch pornography. And though other posters have said so, I’ll reiterate: there are actually niches (“genres” if you will that appeal to different folks’ tastes) where women are subjected to what many people wouldn’t subject themselves to–because they’ve consented and… Read more »
I also meant to add, that you can’t label all men who watch pornography a certain default way just like you can’t label all men who watch sports a certain way (beer guzzling and violent and/or stupid)..it just doesn’t work like that. Humans are all very complex.
Funny how the pro-porn “feminist” point of view conveniently ignores the fact that the vast majority of porn is increasing violent and degrading to women and invariably focused on male pleasure with female pleasure merely being an extention of it. That and the fact that hardcore pornography is easily accessible to children old enough to navigate a web page. Also, this “analysis” ignores the perspectives of women in the industry and the harm they are at risk of; anal prolapse for instance, caused by extreme anal penetration. Do these women matter *at all*? does the fact that sexual abusers often… Read more »
No they don’t ignore it. They just know well enough to not presume that porn equals male desire to abuse.
Linnea, I think some of these objections are overhyped or perhaps myths. There is no evidence of an epidemic of “anal prolapse” in the porn industry despite the fact most female performers engage in anal sex. Why? Because most aren’t doing anything that normal, non-porn receivers of anal sex do. Women are far more likely to suffer from anal prolapse than men but that has very little to do with being an anal sex recipient. Instead it has to do with the ravages of childbirth and age and hemorrhoids and such things. Otherwise we’d see the same or in fact… Read more »
Danny said: “No that means that’s part of what you like to do in the bedroom. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that some part of you thinks that way of all men.” Of course there would be a part of me that thought that way about men. Even if I was making a seperation between how it’s okay to treat men in real life and how it’s okay to treat men in fantasy. Those two parts make up who I am. And the later is very unflattering. Danny: “And the fact that I enjoy such behaviors in… Read more »
Enjoying seeing women treated a certain way that pleases *you* best first, through a male dominated industry, while they are *acting* out a male dominated fantasy is not the same as enjoying in a mutual satisfying experience with a real woman Danny. Explain. Please, lets not forget that the women in porn are acting. Please stop projecting your fantasies on the women you are watching and assume that this is what their sexuality really is outside the porn world. You like seeing women enjoying something *you* like. It has nothing to do with really wanting to know what these women… Read more »
Correction:
You say you want to have the conversation but when someone gives an answer you do not like you just decide on your own that they are wrong.
I never claimed that no woman could be into the things projected in porn. What I said is that we can’t both describe porn as fantasy and then say that becaue the female in the movie is “acting” like it’s grea, or that a woman can enjoy an act shown in porn in her real life, that porn is about what women want or that it’s even about relating to women. You said: “No projection would doing those things to them even when they don’t want to or trying to coerce them into things they have doubts about or trying… Read more »
That’s not projection, that’s called rape. Putting women into boxes based on their purpose to you doesn’t have anything to do with rape or coercing them. Which is why I didn’t say rape. As you say you find those acts degrading and won’t participate in them. There are men who would specifically seek you out for that exact reason just as there are men that respect you and your sexual tastes enough to leave you be after asking/offering. In fact I think you’ve said in another thread that you’ve had men try to introduce those things I’ll bet some of… Read more »
Danny, I don’t even understand why you are talking about someone doing something nonconsently to someone else! This has nothing to do with what I said. I said that men place women into boxes based on what purpose they serve. Women in porn are clearly placed in one box and serve their purpose and gfs and wives are placed in another, also serving a purpose. And many men seem to want to use both for their own desires. You came back about comments about consent or nonconsent and I’m really confused why that was even your response. It’s like we… Read more »
No I don’t think consent is the sole ingredient but I do beleive it plays a part in it. That’s why I bring it up. Its going to mean a difference in who finds what degrading. Ironically, with your reference to something that isn’t rape but is nonconsent, sometimes in the bedroom guys don’t even ASK you if you want to do something, they just assume because they’ve seen it so much in porn, they assume that it’s just “normal” and you’re gonna “love it” too. If you don’t think that’s happening, then you are 100% wrong. We may not… Read more »
Danny, again, consent doesn’t mean you aren’t infact degrading someone. Their consent doesn’t mean they don’t infact want to be degraded..But once again, what two people do between themselves is up to them. What goes in with porn is another matter. The consent of the actress to portray a role doesn’t say anything about the projections and attitudes porn often upholds about women. Danny: “Its one thing to be interested in it but its quite another to buy into the idea that that is the norm that everyone does.” Well I personally think that’s already happened. In my own experience,… Read more »
It’s very important to recognize the difference between porn and erotica, the latter being respectful of all parties involved. The “frescos of Pompeii” mentioned in the article are erotica, not porn. Porn is characterized by exploitation and victimization of one or more of the people involved in the sexual act. In this day and age, it is possible to make both porn and erotica, but we MUST understand that there is a difference between the two and that one should not mistake healthy sexual imagery and video for that which is abusive and demeaning.
If this is the same Marie that posted earlier, I am most surprised to find myself agreeing with you, but I have to admit I do agree somewhat with this distinction. I think there is something to this difference. (I think Gloria Steinem most famously made a similar distinction many years ago, and I often disagree with her, to put it mildly.) These are some categories we could start to work with, which could be useful for navigating this terrain. I think there are clear members of a “porn” category and clear members of an “erotica” category. The difficulty is… Read more »
I am far from the first person to say this, but the biggest draw for men who watch porn is not the desire to subjugate women nor is it how the women in porn look or sound. The main engine of porn is the fantasy of a very simple, straightforward, quick and easy female sexuality. The chief draw for many men is the idea of being with a woman who readily and eagerly wants and enjoys sex at the drop of a hat. She appreciates everything that her partner does with her and enjoys every second of it, and her… Read more »
That Guy – yeah I do think you have a point that other reasons men like porn is because of how easily pleased and how always up for sex the women in porn are. It’s not complicated. It’s easy. It’s “non-mysterious” as you said. All those things are stereotypically how men themselves respond to sex right? Men are usually more up for it them women and the fact that porn portrays men not wanting to have to work too hard to woo a woman shows how men wished women really were. Men don’t want to work that hard when it… Read more »
Of course, implicit in your response is that all “real women” want the same thing. And that all porn shows the same thing.
I think most of us have a basic understanding about what *most* porn is about. Porn does not create positve images of women. I think that’s a basic and simple concept that both men and women grasp. It also leans to varying levels of verbal, physical and emotional abuse that often the female actress is “acting” like is the best thing that ever happened to her. Porn says that women LOVE to be as verbally and physically used and abused for male pleasure. It would be like women believing that men loved to be taken for all their money if… Read more »
Actually Erin, I disagree with your premise, which has undergone no analysis, merely your assertion, in order for you to accept it as a truth. What exactly is a “positive image” of women? That they *don’t* enjoy sex? That they *don’t* share any sexual fantasies in common with men? In the context of porn, there really is no “abuse” , except in certain fetish areas, instead, in mainstream hardcore porn, where there is any verbal or physical abuse, this is presented in the context of rough sex and some graphic language, but it is not intended to represent an unwilling… Read more »
The domination / submission theme is very common in porn and spans many different genre – gay, lesbian, straight, male being dominant, female being dominant etc Taken in this light, it shows that power exchange in sexuality can be stimulating. If you remove the sexual aspect all together, you see the same dynamic in violent films, horror, slash, romance fiction, and so on. We all have fantasies of revenge, manipulation, which we never act upon. Personally, I’d be worried if I did not see these aspects of humane behavior in pornography. Fantasy / dreams do not share a porous border… Read more »
Yes, the domination/submission theme is common in many different genre’s of porn. No one denies this. However, it excels in heterosexual male porn much more then female being dominant porn does. Further, even female dominant porn is made mostly for men. If it were only that simple theme between domination and submission. I don’t think domination or submission is bad. It’s basically about being in a safe enough place to give up control for the sub and for the dominant it’s about having the power to control the situation without destroying the person under your control. It’s about trust. But… Read more »
Porn reflects reality as much as fantasy, and the reason why this is true is because people act on their fantasies. Perhaps not everyone, but most people do. So to the extent that power is a theme in porn, it simply mirrors the dynamic that power has in real life. Women pursue “powerful” men, and harbor fantasies about them. Everything from starfuckers to groupies to women that chase politicians. Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, you cannot tell me that was not all about power. The truth is that people are proud of their sexual conquests, whatever they view those to… Read more »
Maybe porn reflects your reality J Sebastian, but it doesn’t reflect mine. Yes , women like powerful men. However, for most women, power is not always defined the same way. Which is why some women like men with muslces and other like men with booksmarts and yet others like a man that can cook. ‘Power” is a funny word that’s not always defined in stereotypical terms of superior social grace or your ability to manipulate people. Even in porn, the men aren’t just powerful, they are brutish and mean spirited. If that’s what you want your reality to be, then… Read more »
I appreciate your response. It’s thoughtful and specific and respectful, which I appreciate. I appreciate your points, but I see some disagreement and maybe some miscommunication on my part. I was trying to add to the discussion about power and appearance, but I did not mean to suggest that the “easy female sexuality” (my phrase) was the ONLY driving force behind porn. I was not asking for anyone to ignore any disturbing aspects of porn content, just that the enjoyment that people get from porn is from a variety of things. Misogyny and a wish to subjugate women is at… Read more »
That Guy, I think you’ve missed what I’ve said. But I do agree that people watch porn for a variety or things. I just think it’s wrong to say that because men just want easy female sex, that it makes all those all those other elements okay. I just too often see this argument when people want to ignore the gross amount of misogyny that infact makes up the industry. I agree that the female character is *projected* as loving everything that is happening to her. I totally disagree that the female enjoyment is more common then female degradation. It’s… Read more »
Erin, Thank you for your thoughtful and thorough response. I think my earlier message has created some misinterpretation of my intent. In some ways, I agree with your interpretation about what I said but disagree on the level of assumptions. First, I agree, most men who desire their sex lives to be more like porn scenarios would be more likely to ask their partners instead of make demands. You’re right, they don’t necessarily expect their partners to be just like that but they may ask. In my view, requesting a particular sexual role play is not in itself an attempt… Read more »
That Guy, I don’t think you’re so different from other men in terms of literally buying the fantasy when you are watching it. It wouldn’t turn you on if you couldn’t buy into the plausibility of it for the moment you’re enjoying it. Where we differ is that you don’t think it’s troublesome and to me, as a woman, it is. The women in the porn aren’t portrayed as loving it out of some benevolent desire to pleasure women or to really engage with real women’s needs. At the end of the day, even the woman’s portrayal of loving everything… Read more »
Erin, Thank you for the fuller exploration. I think I see more clearly. Let me try to summarize some points of agreement and disagreement and see where that takes the conversation. Where we agree (even if I gave a false impression otherwise): Porn produced for hetero males focuses on what pleases men more than what pleases women. It is intended to be a fantasy, usually very simplistic, not a very realistic portrayal of men and women engaged in everyday sexual intimacy. Porn is a massive industry, heavily competitive, generally driven by the profit motive. If one were to evaluate this… Read more »
I think you make good points but why do (some) men enjoy the idea that women enjoy being degraded or abused? That’s very strange to me. If it was just about watching women enjoying themselves, then slapping her around wouldn’t be necessary.
“If it was just about watching women enjoying themselves, then slapping her around wouldn’t be necessary.”
This specific sex act was introduced to me by a former female partner. I enjoyed it because she enjoyed it. It really is that simple. It isn’t just an “idea.” In many cases, it’s reality!
Granted, there are women who enjoy being abused. However, I’m not really talking about consensual BDSM relationships but the guys who are sitting at home enjoying the fantasy of abusing women. Most of those men, I suspect, are not in safe, sane and consensual BDSM relationships. They are just getting off on the idea of treating women like sh$t. That makes me think, why? Admittedly I haven’t watched tons of hardcore porn but my impression is that the fantasy of hurting women or doing things against their will IS a big part of a lot of porn that’s out there.… Read more »
I agree with what you said Jill. And I really believe deep in my heart that if porn was switched around in some alternate universe where instead porn was about calling men names, slapping them around, using them for their money; and then turning to our husbands and boyfriends and son’s and fathers and claiming we really had respect for men, that would be a HUGE disconnect and not fair to the men in our lives. Whether we used that material for 5 seconds, 5 minutes or an hour. Wheter we tucked our sons in lovingly or not. And when… Read more »
Most of those men, I suspect, are not in safe, sane and consensual BDSM relationships. They are just getting off on the idea of treating women like sh$t. I’m curious as to how you think that most men actually get off on harming women. Somehow we give men a “pass” on their misogyny if it is a sexual fantasy, but I’m not sure I see the difference. I the difference that unlike a black person avoiding racists there is absolutely no safe, consensual, positive context for type of behavior (well at least to me there isn’t). On the other hand… Read more »
If I sat around masturbating to images of men being called names, and instead of being used for sex, they were being used for money, then kicked out for the next guy that could be sucked dry for his money, and all these men were projected as loving this treatment and getting fulfillment out; I don’t think there is a man here that would think I had much respect men. Would you take me seriously as a potential mate knowing this part of how my mind was working Danny?
Actually I might because there is a chance that what you masturbating to actually doesn’t translate into what you really think about men. Just like it is with men and porn. Yeah some of them really don’t think highly of women and that is a serious problem. However as has been said time and time again a person’s taste in porn (or sex for that matter) isn’t the tell all map to their personality. I don’t have a problem with you questioning it (because in your reveresed hypothetical I’d be questioning it too). The difference I wouldn’t just outright dismiss… Read more »
Actually, if I enjoyed such material, it would infact translate a portion of what I really thought about men. I might still sit down to family dinners with my farther and brother and bake my boyfriend a cake but clearly a portion of me thinks men are good for the money they can give me and the names i can call them. And that wouldn’t be heahtly. Living in those two different worlds and pretending that by seperating them, that how I treat the real men in my real live vs how I enjoy seeing men treated doesn’t say something… Read more »
The fact that I don’t enjoy such material says that I don’t enjoy seeing men debased and I don’t like to partcipate in the debasement of men either.
I might still sit down to family dinners with my farther and brother and bake my boyfriend a cake but clearly a portion of me thinks men are good for the money they can give me and the names i can call them. No that means that’s part of what you like to do in the bedroom. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that some part of you thinks that way of all men. And the fact that I enjoy such behaviors in a consensual sexual setting doesn’t necessarily means that I enjoy seeing women being treated that… Read more »
Erin, have you ever been in family court? Or had a male friend who was going through a divorce? Or read personal ads by women? If you really don’t think many women still view men as good for their money and resources (or, the more PC term, “lifestyle”, “stability”, “security”, “accomplished”, etc buzzwords that are used), then you’re living in some kind of feminist delusion. Because the truth is that there is really nothing in marriage for men anymore, women don’t come with a dowry these days, and the little government permission slip/binding contract says nothing about love or respect… Read more »
I have no clue what you’re talking about J Sebastain. I don’t understand what the issue of hte court system and how it treats men when marriages go sour have to do with how women are represented through porn. I do think women can behave horribly when it comes to taking advantage of men in the courts. My Uncle had it happen to him and he is still my Uncle. I don’t even talk to my aunt anymore or call her aunt. I don’t sit around jacking off to male debasement. I don’t think it’s asking too much for men… Read more »
You’re not seriously asking for support of Catherine McKinnon, are you? What next, are you going to ask us to read Mary Daly and Andrea Dworkin for insight into pornography? They are the Fox news of intelligent discourse on sexuality.
And you do realize that the Ari Libskr’s documentary was banned for distributing anti-Semitic pornography. I’m sure Ms. McKinnon had a fist in there somewhere…the irony is delicious.
McKinnon, Daly, and Dworkin have made extreme remarks, but they also have brilliant insights. They shouldn’t get trashed.
I would have to question your assessment of “brilliant”.
I’m amused at the idea that the ancients used porn to provoke ethical, mutually-respectful discussions about porn. You know, with women.
Anyone who believes that the ancients used porn to provoke ethical, mutually-respectful discussions is living in a dream world. Porn is about male sexual dominance, not about mutual, egalitarian sexual pleasure between women and men.
Some people lack creativity and imagination and require porn.
Some people use porn as a crutch for their sexuality when they might be better off developing their sexuality on their own without the “aid/hiderence” of porn.
A person does not need to use porn to have a good sex life. On the contrary, some of the worst sex partners are porn addicts.
Same is true of women who use vibrators and other sex toys.
Some people use vibrators as a crutch for their sexuality when they might be better off developing their sexuality on their own without the “aid/hindrance” of vibrators.
Some of the worst partners are vibrator addicts.
Um, nice non-neutral moderation policy GMP has got going on here. Some posters get to post paragraphs worth of invective, while others, like me, are blocked if we post anything longer than a few sentences. Way to go!
Erin – The claims you make about porn performers are just the worst kind of stereotyping and psychobabble. First, show some hard evidence that anywhere close to a majority of porn performers come from backgrounds of abuse. If you can’t, I think you’re just working from a stereotype and one that you can conveniently use to paint porn performers as victims without agency. Its a fucked up and condescending point of argument. And this idea that porn performers do lesbian porn based on a “dislike” of men shows how little you know about porn performers of the industry. In fact,… Read more »
Some of the slant in porn is because of basic practical questions that have more to do with physical reality than any kind of gender ideology. I’m not saying there’s no sexual politics involved, just that not every cinematic decision in porn production is the result of some kind of systemic gender power structure. First of all, a lot of porn is designed to be viewed by someone, usually male, masturbating in private. Naturally, that person can’t actually feel someone else at the moment so has to make due with seeing someone else, so of course the camera is going… Read more »
I meant ‘tactile’ instead of ‘tactical’. Trying not to read too much into that mistake….
What people do not like to mention about pornography is how harmful it is to the women and men who are in it. The average adult star only lasts in the industry for 5 years. Sasha Grey suffers from a serious sexually transmitted disease. Most pornography “performers” are stigmatized and can not find another job outside the industry. Even pornography actors and actresses would not want their children involved in the industry!! When people say it is “normal” and “safe” to watch pornography, but it is not “normal” for the performers to be in the industry. Those performers would not… Read more »
Charlene – you made great points. Especially about the issue of promiscuousity and defining female sexuality in porn as “dirty” or “sluts”. I myself read that the average adult star (at least for females) only lasts 6 months to a year. And that within in that time frame she is asked to do more hardcore and graphic acts. Until eventually she is phased out because of the demand for “new” flesh. I’ve also read there was a class level for women and the more plain women were usually the ones enlisted for the most hardcore of porn. And I’ve seen… Read more »
As I’ve said in response to Charlene – sources? And if it is simple anecdotal claims from Gail Dines and Shelley Lubben, who are activists with an axe to grind, I really don’t think that’s much evidence at all.
As for career length, there are many female performers who stay in front of the camera for 10 years or more.
Thank you, Erin!!!
My reaction to this is not to fight against the consumption of pornography. I’m a union man myself. This information sounds to me like a good reason for actors to be protected by good workplace safety laws, and your post sounds to me like a great call for sex workers to organize themselves.
There are already laws covering assault, kidnapping, unfair labor practices, etc. Raping someone is already illegal. An employer pressuring an employee to do something dangerous is already punishable by law. If porn directors, producers, and agents are getting away with these crimes, then stop the crimes.
That Guy, I am not a union woman myself but I do think better regulations and safety laws for the industry would be wonderful. It won’t happen though. The industry makes too much money off of the unsafe practices. And since the porn industry is making less money now with all the free porn, it’s not going to now go to the step to make laws “better”. However, that doesn’t address how people outside the industry relate to the product still and despite my belief that regulations and safety laws for porn workers would be wonderful, it doesn’t deny the… Read more »
Your ideas about porn performers are just the worst kind of stereotyping and psychobabble. First, show some hard evidence that anywhere close to a majority of porn performers come from backgrounds of abuse. If you can’t, I think you’re just working from a stereotype and one that you can conveniently use to paint porn performers as victims without agency. Its a fucked up and condescending point of argument. And this idea that porn performers do lesbian porn based on a “dislike” of men shows how little you know about porn performers of the industry. In fact, can you even name… Read more »
I didn’t say that porn performeres do lesbian porn based on a “dislike” of men. I said that Jemma Jamison one time talked about how *she* did lesbians scenes for awhile because of her own dislike for men at the time.
Iamcuriousblue, I will show you hard evidence…but you show me yours first. 🙂 Especially since I already did site one source of my information. You’re turn.
Well, the board ate my reply again, so I suppose this is a no go. Since it seems hard-wired into this fucking forum that I don’t get to respond for more than a few sentences. So have a good time monopolizing discussion, Erin. You deserve yourself.
Oh, and since my comments are going into moderation, which means the moderator will at some point read them, I just want to give my *major* disrespect to the fucked up moderation policies on this board. Having it set up so that some posters get unlimited length, while others are allowed only a few sentences if anything at all is sure-fire way of creating a completely uneven discussion, and creating a hell of a lot of resentment on the part of the people who are modded against. I’ve left several clear nuanced posts that were simply *dumped and lost* because… Read more »
I think someone needs a hug.
Internet hugs for everyone!
Wow. So the porn industry is responsible for the stigma that porn performers suffer? Seems like a bit of victim-blaming to me. Small clue – maybe we should be fighting this stigma.
As for the rest, I see the same unsourced accusations that porn performing “tears women up”. Is there anything to back this up beyond the over-the-top claims made by Gail Dines and Shelley Lubben?
I strongly recommend Professor Robert Jensen(UT Austin) book, “Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity.” I also recommend you read about University of Michigan Law, Professor Catharine McKinnon’s, work against pornography. Instead of depending on obscenity laws, she has taken a different route on fighting pornography. I strongly recommend you read about how Sasha Grey’s “agent” said that the reason why she became so famous is because of her willingness to do a wide array of sexual acts that horrifies even some men. A. O. Scott of The New York Times described her pornographic career as “distinguished by the… Read more »
1) I’ve read or am familiar with the works you’ve listed here. 2) Don’t assume just because I don’t agree with you that I simply haven’t been exposed to the shining light of radical feminism. 3) You haven’t answered my specific question about a source that women are physically “torn up” by doing pornography. 4) Longer response if the mod software here allow through more than a 1-paragraph response.
I think Jensen is tragically screwed up sexually. I also don’t trust moralists at all. Especially when they’re taking it to the bank in large amounts. It’s Jensen’s South Dakota morailty he’s selling, and it’s basically anti-sexual. I’m not interested. Jensen is similar to the infinite regress people who claim that things are never getting better in race relations, when actually they are. (He has a silmilar race book.) I’m doing an experiment currently of eschewing porn for a month. I was basically a once a week user (to finish off because my sphincters lock up on Effexor.) It’ll be… Read more »
BTW IACB, New Age and Martial Arts combine pretty well.
I think it would be an interesting experiment for a lot of men, actually. To see how it affects the experience of masturbation overall, and what, if any, affect it would have on partnered sex. (One could issue the same challenge to many women vis a vis vibrators.) In your case, it doesn’t sound like you “use” porn that much, though I don’t know whether 1/week is a large part of your overall masturbation frequency or not.
I think pornography is completely demeaning, disgusting, reprehensible, and inherently misogynistic, violent, and dehumanizing. It is poisonous to the mind and to intimate relationships.
That’s why I only purchase erotica, erotic fiction, and films that use explicit sexuality to advance a visual artistic message. Only those materials that show healthy, normal sexuality.
I hope this distinction is clear. I would hate for anyone to think I’m on the wrong side….
(Note to hair-trigger trolls: this is sarcasm.)
“What turns me on is erotica, what you on is pornography.”
No, I think you have it backwards. What turns ME on is erotica, what turns YOU on is pornography. : – )
Erin – “Moral panic” has a very specific sociological meaning, and one I suggest you familiarize yourself with before blasting people who use the term. Briefly, it is an exaggerated sense of threat to the social order by an ostensibly novel social phenomenon perpetrated by a demonized other. Moral panics are typically perpetrated by “moral entrepreneurs” who have a vested interest in order to target a rival group or establish a new social norm. The classic moral panic of recent years was the Satanic Ritual Abuse scare, something that just 20 years ago a lot of “good” “moral” “feminist” people… Read more »
While I enjoyed the differing view of Jennifer’s piece, as a regular girl with no extensive research under my belt other then my own life experiences and discussion with other women and men on this topic, I have to disagree. I think the desire to watch people have sex is natural. I think becoming aroused through sexual imagery is natural. I even think that erotica can open doors to discussions about mutual pleasure. Where Jennifer and I differ is the health of the porn industry itself. The industry of porn is wrapped up in so much other gunk that at… Read more »
Exactly, Erin, watching porn makes me feel disgusted and depressed about both myself and men in general. I feel like if that’s the male view of sexual plasure, I want no part of it. It’s not “moral panic.” I’m not religious and I have no issues with people being sexual. I love sex. I love men. But I hate how porn makes me feel about sex. I hate how it makes me feel about myself, and my ability to be sexual in a way that men will enjoy. I really, really hate how porn makes me feel about men.
Look, I cannot speak about Japanese engravings, the Kama Sutra, or Islamic sex manuals. I can talk about BDSM, porn, and western tantra because I have dabbled in those worlds. A lot of people, women in particular, find tantra attractive because it appears pretty and accessible. The thing is, tantra is a spiritual practice that requires you to go straight into your desires to attain liberation and union with the divine. This means surrender and ego-destruction. It isn’t pretty. This also means that BDSM and porn easily fit into the tantric path. In BDSM, the submissive or bottom, surrenders (pre-negotiated,… Read more »
That may be your perspective, Jeni. I doubt that most of the millions of men who like to view degrading, violent pornography experience it as a way of connecting with God. They are acting out feelings of intense hostility toward women, IMO, whatever place psychologically that comes from. What is “divine” about wanting to cause another human being to suffer pain and humiliation? That’s not to say there aren’t people out there engaged in ethical BDSM relationships. Fine. Just be aware that you are getting an altered state of consciousness because of a rush of endorphins and adrenaline. It’s not… Read more »
Jill, Unlike you, I don’t claim to know the minds of millions of men. I seriously doubt that they connect with God when they watch porn. Maybe some do. I dunno. Some may be acting out feelings of intense hostility towards women. Some may be turned on by the idea of breaking taboos around the ‘appropriate’ treatment of women. Others may be feeling out their frustration and desire to be accepted and received by the women in their lives. I think that regardless of their stated reasons, in the end, they’re all just searching for connection to God, the Universe,… Read more »
Actually, I’m an atheist. So, my reference to tantric sex was to point out that although erotica has existed for much of human history (in fact there are even cave paintings of female genitals) violent and degrading porn seems to be a new thing. Men have always abused women, of course, but I don’t think it was ever celebrated the way it is now. I find that disturbing. And, again, my concern is not with consensual relationships but with the prevalence of a violent, demeaning view of sex and relationships. I don’t mean to denigrate your personal experiences but I… Read more »
Yay! I’m agnostic…
You may be right, violent and degrading porn may be more prevalent now than before but type in BDSM in Wikipedia and you’ll find references to S/M practices dating back to the ninth century B.C. Of course, you’ll find the works of Marquis de Sade and Leopold von Sacher-Masoch listed as well.
These tendencies and desires have been around for a long time…I don’t think they’re going away.
1. Personally, I find the mandatory facial ejaculations, frequent anal, and rapid intercourse in porn non-tantric. I’m quite willing to agree that these practices could be tantric for some, but they are not played that way in porn. I have seen examples where I think the actors were in tantric-like ecstasy, but this is pretty rare. 2. In my experience, and this is mine (but it’s a fair amount,) slowness has much to do with evoking a tantric-like state. In fact, slow actions can be brought to a complete halt for minutes at a time while intense sensations play over… Read more »
Yes, people have a dark side. Murder, torture and rape have been around for a long time too. Should we wallow in those impulses? Just posing the question.
The way you frame it, it seems you think repression is the answer. If those impulses can be sublimated into a context of mutual, even enthusiastic consent, then who are you or anybody else to say “nay” to it?
Oh, and just posing a question. 😉
I don’t think repression is the answer, but awareness and understanding of one’s negative impulses doesn’t require acting on them. I think it is up to every person to decide if they want to fuel their dark impulses or not, or if they want to focus on developing the positive aspects of themselves rather than the negative. In Buddhist meditation, for example, one learns to be aware of violent fantasies or images that may emerge in one’s mind, to acknowledge them without emotion and set them aside. That’s different than trying to repress them. For some men, indulging in sadistic… Read more »
I see. So you’re coming from a basically “new age” point of view. Sorry, but I don’t put a whole lot of stock in that, especially when it turns into demonizing people who don’t rise to arbitrary standards of sweetness and light. Now as for BDSM, I don’t think it’s inherently more unhealthy than contact sports, or martial arts like boxing. All cases where violent and competitive impulses are channeled into clearly defined spaces and played out according to clear rules for the benefit and pleasure of those involved. And sorry, but I see a hell of a lot more… Read more »
Iamcuriousblue, I think you will see from my other comments that I know that people can be in ethical BDSM relationships. My concerns are with the prevalence of women-hating porn out there, and the refusal of men who like that kind of porn to acknowledge that it comes from a hateful place. Many of those guys are probably NOT in BDSM relationships or leading a BDSM lifestyle. They are just watching violent porn because they like seeing women hurt. Fantasies are fantasies, yes that’s true. But if you like to fantasize about hurting and degrading women for your own fun… Read more »
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Well, it seems this forum is throwing any response I make beyond the length of one paragraph, so I guess you get the last word by default. Needless to say, I don’t agree you’ve made a good case at all.
I responded to your point about “moral panic” specifically below. But as for the rest of it –
BTW, that’s quite the rant you have there Erin. I mean, really, way to project your fears and insecurities and act like that describes the entire genre and all men who watch it. Also saw your hateful comments about James Deen and you come across as somebody undeserving to be seriously engaged with.
That’s quite an attempt to degrade my comments and misrepresent what I’ve said Iamcuriousblue. I said nothing “hateful” about James Deen.I just didn’t agree with some of the things he was saying. I’m sorry you find that offensive. I clearly stated in my comments that I didn’t see how the piece proved he was neccisarly a good man but that didn’t neccisarly mean he was “bad” either. I do have fears and insecurities when it comes to porn and I’ve always been honest about that. I also think it’s normal considering how porn treats and repersents women. That doesn’t negate… Read more »
First, I think your framing of the issue that porn is some kind of monolith that “treats and represents women” negatively is neither intelligent nor particularly helpful. And I think your claim to be discussing the subject with “intelligence and humanity” rings pretty hollow when you posted little more than a series of accusations posing as “questions”. Not to mention the oh-so-superior tone seemingly all of the posts I’ve seen from you are written in. Why anybody in their right mind would want to answer your “questions” is beyond me. Disregarding you is about as polite of a response as… Read more »
Iamcuriousblue, if you disagree with my comments about porn, then be specific about what comments you are disagreeing with and why. You’ve instead wasted your time on comments that are lined with anger and emotion than fact and discussion. If you want to disagree with me then articulate those points you specfically disagree with in a manner we would all understand. Rather then making pointless commentary about what you apparently think are good comebacks about the level of “degradation” you think I deserve. You’ve decided to focus your attention on attacking me then offering anything geniune and intelligent to the… Read more »
“Rather then making pointless commentary about what you apparently think are good comebacks about the level of “degradation” you think I deserve.” Which shows that you don’t even bother to read comments before responding. I said you deserved to be “disregarded”, not “degraded”. Says a lot about your paranoid views of men, though, to put those words in my mouth. “I’m sure you have a valid view point but you need to share it instead of using school ground bullying games to hide behind it. Really. I think its very rich of you to accuse other people of bullying. You… Read more »
Hey IAmCuriousBlue, you are right..you did say “disregarding”. I misread you and you know what? That happens, I apologize for that. Lets be adults and not act like it negates any of the other points I made. Further, the comment still was purposely and directly rude and you know it. And yes, I do think you are being a bully. You’ve called my comments “rants”, you falsely stated that I said anything hateful about James Deen and you’ve now called me “paranoid”. I didn’t address your “moral panic” commentary because I honestly didn’t see a point. You have your view,… Read more »
Well, its good to see that you weren’t part of the flagdown of that comment.
But nevertheless, I see many of your comments as bullying, presumptuous, and not dignifying a response. If I respond further at all, it will not be to your “questions” the way you’ve framed them, which largely seem aimed to get men to “admit” to misogynistic fantasies so you can bash them for it. Needless to say, I’m not OK with a conversation of that kind, nor do I think anybody else should be.
This is getting silly. Honestly, who cares if I flagged it down or not. . I’m allowed to “like” or “dislike” any post I want. I’m sure you’ve “liked” and “disliked” posts yourself. Perhaps even some of mine. Goodness. No I amcuriousblue, you do not see my comments as bullying or not dignifying of a response. You’ve only decided to call my comments bullying after I called yours such. And you certainly responded in some manner even if it wasn’t to address some of the good questions I asked. I went back to read the comments I asked. Here they… Read more »
And before you tell me I am “snickering” at men for using porn. I am not. I’m just not sure how men want me as a woman to feel about it. Because as a woman, I mostly feel hurt and sad about how my gender is depicted through the majority of porn.
Um, wow, Erin, now I know you’re really just arguing for the sake of self-righteous anger here, because you are literally putting words in my mouth. Did I ever say “misogynistic” or that you were “snickering” at men? No. I said you were being bullying, and I absolutely stand by that. It is also clear to me that you are very thin-skinned, and that you can dish out bile but can’t take criticism. That speaks to very low character. I’ll also have to point out that you’re at a bit of an unfair advantage in this conversation, since for whatever… Read more »
I think my issue with porn is that so much of it is so violent and demeaning toward women. I think that the reason men enjoy this kind of porn is because of a deep seated anger and resentment toward women. The debates about porn tend to be sociological rather than psychological. It’s the psychology that interests me, and that is what is quite Susie ing. We could argue a lot about where this male hatred of women comes from and what it means, and I don’t have a good answer, but I don’t think it’s positive. If you look… Read more »
Meant to type “quite disturbing” up there — damn autocorrect!
Jill, I think there’s often a slow controllingness to Japanese old-time picture porn. It’s a little sadistic, implicitly, but quite a turn on. The man is always shown being the doer; the woman, the doee. It’d be fun to see the reverse, but that never happens.
I think Jill made a great point and I agee with her. And I really like her point about how Kama Sutra and tantric sex where about mutual pleasure. There isn’t much in today’s porn that is about mutual pleasure. There are even guys that admit they wouldn’t treat their real life partner the way they see women in porn treated but they still like it. What does that say?
Erin, you keep going at this idea that women are not or cannot derive pleasure from the activities portrayed in porn. I keep trying to get across to you that just because YOU don’t enjoy those particular acts doesn’t mean that the women in porn do not or that other women in regular life don’t enjoy those acts. Your narrow view of what is pleasurable about sex is not representative of all women. Please stop to acting like it is!
Historically, all erotica has been created by men, so it typically shows the male view of sex, where the woman is the passive recipient of male needs. However, I think we can all agree that the violent, demeaning representation of sex in (much of) contemporary porn is far removed from what you see in Japanese erotic art. Also, while I am not an expert in this, I vaguely recall from a art hisotry class that Asian artistic principles require a balance of active and passive (yin and yang) forces in the painting, so maybe that is part of the aesthetic… Read more »
This is meant to be funny. I was a GI in Germany for three years in the 60s and minored in German in college. My main theoretical area is the Frankfurt School as a sociologist. I’m surprised that Geman feminists are taking a leadership role in developing porn and researching it. Two generations ago, the Germans couldn’t even swear sexually. All of their curses were excremental: “Scheisse,” “Blede…,” and so on. So, they’ve come a long way, baby. One the other hand, if it’s mainly S&M, it’s not that much of a surprise. I say this with tremendous affection for… Read more »
wellokaythen makes some important observations that really strike at the heart of what i was trying to get at: that no idea system is static, that all cultures re-define morality in very different ways, and that nuance matters. thanks for your two cents!
I do think that much modern porn IS twisted away from reality in a deeply non-erotic way. The degradation fetishes are an example (not that one can’t play with this, but there are so many in porn.) It’s like the part-pleasures that go with so many commodities in modernity. You like sweet?– here you go! Too sweet. Or you like spicy? Or you like fast? Or you want to be buffed? Well, look grotesque! To see anything really sensual, one might have to search for hours. (Intermittent reinforcement?) Real sex is, at least some of the time, more holistic, slow,… Read more »
Great article laying out the contours of some of the debate about pornography and how to address it. Just a clarification about ancient cultures, before people jump too far to the idea of an ancient golden age of sexual liberation. The author mentioned Michel Foucault’s work. I believe that Foucault pointed out in his history of sexuality that in fact the Romans did have very clear “rules” about what forms of sexuality were acceptable and which were to be punished. For example, sex between males was permitted, even encouraged, but according to clear norms about age difference, class difference, sexual… Read more »
There are also significant differences between accessing pornography on the computer at work and paying for a sexual encounter in a club, on the street, or abroad. Was the person underage? Were they suitably compensated for their sex work? Are there mandatory health checks on the work site?
Why aren’t these questions relevant to people in porn movies also? Couldn’t they just as easily be underage, trafficked, suffering from serious health issues?
“Why aren’t these questions relevant to people in porn movies also? Couldn’t they just as easily be underage, trafficked, suffering from serious health issues?” They are not relevant because the porn industry is highly regulated, std wise its safer than the civilian population because of stringent regulations re. testing. Its the moral histrionics and spreading of misinformation about the prevalence of trafficking and underage prostitutes that are working against the same sort of high standards being applied to prostitution. So, people like you are part of the problem Jem. See The Social Construction of Sex Trafficking: Ideology and Institutionalization of… Read more »
“Why aren’t these questions relevant to people in porn movies also? Couldn’t they just as easily be underage, trafficked, suffering from serious health issues?” They are. There is lots of literature out there about this, for those who care to look. “Was the person underage?” Production of child pornography is a felony. Adult studios (here in the US, anyway) go to great lengths to make sure the actors and actresses in their movies are of legal age. “Were they suitably compensated for their sex work? ” Yes and no. Some studios pay more than others. “Suitably” is a relative term.… Read more »