Nice guy? Cool. Boring guy? Not cool. According to the author of this article, being a ‘nice’ guy doesn’t turn off women, it’s being boring that does it.
I’d like to counter argue the recent article about why girls don’t want nice guys; it’s untrue and I’m tired of guys hiding behind the excuse.
In the piece, Paul Hudson leads us through his personal journey as a “nice guy,” before reaching the inevitable conclusion that he was more successful with women when he wasn’t being so nice.
He touches on a lot of the clichés to which “nice guys” are prone: “In her eyes, nice is weak — it’s boring.” Eventually, however, the girl realizes that she wanted a nice guy all along, but he’s already moved on.
Have you heard this story before? Have you told this story before? It relies on a fundamental misunderstanding that I encounter often through my work with The Art of Charm.
To be fair, however, Hudson’s sob story does get some things right. For example, women want excitement, adventure, mystery and surprise. But what about all of that stuff isn’t “nice”?
What’s more, the problem with a lot of “nice guys” is that they’re fronting like they want to be friends when they really want more. It’s okay to want just a sexual relationship with a woman — totally okay. But, be upfront about it. Don’t pretend like you’re just her buddy and then sandbag her when she takes you at your word.
The problem here isn’t “nice guys” and “bad boys.” That’s a false dichotomy and one that has otherwise good men acting like jerks when it comes to women. What’s at issue here is not being boring and, perhaps more importantly, not begging for approval. Let’s examine each of these, one at a time:
Excitement And Adventure
When you’re dating a woman — especially in the beginning — she’ll want some excitement. She’ll want to feel butterflies in her stomach. She wants to feel desired, for you to show her new things and to take her on adventures. Can a nice guy not do this?
Rather than focusing on being a “bad boy,” focus on what she’s bringing to the relationship. If you find that women friend-zone you often, it’s probably because you’re not adding enough to the relationship. So, rather than conclude that “girls like jerks” and then acting accordingly, take her on a killer date.
That’s it. That’s the “secret” to not landing in the friend zone every time.
What qualifies a killer date? Well, it varies from person to person, obviously, but it’s not dinner and a movie; it’s something more exciting. It’s doing something together that would be fun on your own, but is more fun with another person.
That might be white-water rafting. It might be hitting up an art gallery. It might be a historical bar crawl of places where famous people used to drink in your neighborhood.
It’s something that 15 other guys haven’t already done with her. Think outside of the box. Come up with something that’s fun for both of you. When you’re done with that…
Don’t Be Needy
The other thing that “nice guys” do is to constantly seek approval from their dates.
Never ask her if she’s having a good time and only tell her that you’re having a good time once, twice tops, on any given date. Why? Seeking approval isn’t just a weak behavior, it’s also stressful for the other person.
Think about it. The two of you are out on a first date — something that’s pretty much always stressful. When you continually ask her if she’s having a good time or assure her that you are, you are basically demanding her to agree with you.
Do you think this adds or subtracts from the overall stress of the situation? Do you think she’ll want to want to go on a second date with a guy who does this?
Here’s the thing: It’s the first date, bro! You two barely know each other! The whole point of this date is for the two of you to get to know each other, not to start planning your wedding.
So, relax. Have fun. Let her have fun. Give her room to breathe and if the connection is there, it will happen. If it’s not, you constantly seeking her approval won’t do the trick.
When the date is over, don’t feel like you have to text her 16 times a day just to check in. She has a life to live. Ideally, so should you. Nothing says “needy” more than a dude who constantly has to know what his girl is doing.
It has nothing to do with being a “nice guy” and everything to do with being the type of guy who gives her room to live. Neediness can even manifest from your body language. This is something that we address in our toolbox podcasts.
What’s more, not being needy projects strength. You know what doesn’t? Being a guy who desperately tries to be a bad boy. That just says, “I had some bad dating experiences and learned all the wrong lessons.”
It won’t work. It will just dig you deeper into that hole.
Originally appeared at Elite Daily
Photo Elite Daily
About the author: Jordan Harbinger has always had an affinity for Social Influence, Interpersonal Dynamics and Social Engineering, helping private companies test the security of their communications systems and working with law enforcement agencies before he was even old enough to drive. Jordan has spent several years abroad in Europe and the developing world, including South America, Eastern Europe and the Middle East, and speaks several languages. He has also worked for various governments and NGOs overseas, traveled through war-zones and been kidnapped -twice. He’ll tell you; the only reason he’s still alive and kicking is because of his ability to talk his way into (and out of), just about any type of situation. Here at The Art of Charm, Jordan shares that experience, and the system borne as a result, with students and clients.
Yes!!! You are spot-on about women liking men who aren’t boring! I go on a lot of dates: I meet men online, through friends and even randomly out in public. I’ll go out with a guy even if he doesn’t fit what I typically am attracted to because you never know who you’ll gel with. For example, lat week a man with whom I had a business transaction gave me his number and asked me out. He seemed nice, he wass tall and ruggedly handsome. First thing was he had no input on the date, kept saying, “whatever you want.”… Read more »
Sorry ladies but if you are so passive and shallow that you need somebody else to provide all your entertainment then it isn’t worth wasting any time or effort on you at all.
This may have already been said (the thread is too long to read), but how many women believe, just as it is the “man’s job” to initiate, that it’s also his job to be fun and interesting? How many men really demand that a woman impress them with interestingness? How many otherwise run-of-the-mill women hope for a man that will save them from their humdrum existence? In other words, how many women are interesting enough to even deserve to judge a man for being boring?
how many men expect women to be attractive, and to save them from their humdrum existence through their beauty and sex appeal? I’m guessing… a lot. I think one problem is that we are past the days when women had to find a good husband and were willing to settle for a man who they didn’t feel excited about because they had no other options. It’s interesting if you watch old movies (30’s, 40’s), a common comic situation involved the desperate woman aggressively pursuing a reluctant man for marriage. Now, we women can support ourselves, and having a family and… Read more »
Women want someone interesting, handsome AND nice/kind/respectful. It’s quite simple really, but people become defensive and resentful when those qualities mean different things to the person they’re pining after. For me personally, it’s a deal breaker if I’m not feeling instant chemistry, which rules out the majority of men I meet. I can accept that due to my pickiness, I’m going to be single for awhile, since whining about it doesn’t help my cause one bit. I like guys who are engaging, “adventurous” conversationalists – it doesn’t have to be extreme sports. Be honest about whether you’re on the same… Read more »
That’s why I stopped wasting time hitting on women I actually meet and moved all of my efforts online. I can very quickly screen out the people who clearly aren’t any kind of match for me. Now, I do still have to be worth dating and I do still have to worry about the fact that she might not think I’m a match. But, it does greatly reduce the amount of time and energy wasted on women that would rather I not bother them. Now, moving online does have its own risks, but so far I’ve found that it’s a… Read more »
I’ve been visiting GMP for about 3 years and I’m sometimes amazed by the lack of empathy shown to men on a men’s site by both women and men. We’re told being a good man means getting in touch with your feelings. Being a good man means being able to experience the full range of what it means to be human. Then men talk about how they get shot down in clubs (yes, it’s probably by women who are “out of their league”). They get depressed and so they give up on women either totally or for that night. Then… Read more »
It’s no secret this site has a lot of female followers, look at the facebook page and it’s mostly women commenting. At times it really does feel like the site panders to women quite a bit. The comments that get the most likes on the facebook are usually female-centic, like on the fb discussion for this article. If you click the likes you can see it’s mostly women liking the comments too. The males get maybe 1/4 of the likes yet still talk about serious, legitimate stuff. Scrolling down the page I see far more women commenting than men there.… Read more »
Guilty as charged, Archie. You’re right. I like this site because I realized about a year ago that I didn’t know men at all. I thought I did–I mean, I see them every day, interact with them and all that, but I never really knew them. Guilty of thinking men are just like us women, only with nice shoulders and balls lol. So I started researching [I’m a researcher by profession]. Boy, did I [do I] have a lot to learn! How I could have been so wrong….well, I’m not the only woman who is, that’s for sure. But as… Read more »
@Erin, I think I understand your frustration. I’ll admit that the drop dead gorgeous comment here and as a signifier in similar stories first grabs my attention, and then gives me pause. Women are expected to be physically attractive, and while there are a variety of ways to do that, the comment doesn’t explain that, and the “ways” aren’t so many. I think I sympathize because just as you resent the emphasis on women “being” attractive, this piece bugged me because I resent “performing” attractiveness, which is essentially what the article promotes. That performance is a burden and it gets… Read more »
Thanks Adrian. I’m certainly not saying that one shouldn’t be attracted to their partner. But among men there is such a huge emphasis on women’s looks and not infact about her being “nice” herself. So I don’t understand men that get upset that women also need more from a man than just being “nice”. I’m tired of the stereotype that women only go for “bad boys” because we don’t *only* go for ‘bad boys”. I’m tired of men who say “well I was a nice guy now I use women and they love me”, and shrug and act like women… Read more »
ahhh, beautifully put, Erin.
“There may be a line between “performing” for the relationship and “giving” of yourself to it for various reasons.”
A person GIVES their gifts of attention, interest, curiosity, approval, affection, love, touch, etc. because THEY want to do this on their terms, without expectation.
A person PERFORMS those duties when they are doing them according to someone else’s rules and they expect to get something in return.
@ Adrian “She told me that she was in an abusive relationship with a guy. They had a child together. She eventually married a nice, boring guy. They had two kids together and he’s taken to her first child as if that was his. She absolutely adores him and he her. This woman is drop dead gorgeous.” Yet, that wasn’t the first descriptor. She was in an abusive relationship (had a “bad boy”). She became (was) a mother. Her life situation / phase changed. She came to the realization that what she wanted at least at this phase in her… Read more »
Ad revenue must be down huh?
Quick! Throw another half baked “Nice Guy” article out. Bring on the clickbait!
Nice is just a rubbish word for describing anything at all really. It’s like saying something was ‘okay’ish’ or just ‘meh’. Don’t get me wrong I get the debate and all of the points made in the comment section here, but I just have to say… I know a number of ‘nice’ guys and they all have really great gf’s or wives, but it’s not because they are ‘nice’ guys. It’s because they are positive ‘up for it’ type guys along with other characteristics. Living proof that you can be good blokes and still find a great gal. They’re no… Read more »
I have to disagree with the author on the “Excitement and Adventure”. When I first start seeing someone, I want to get to know the real him, free of distractions. The notion that ALL women are thrill-seekers (or that we seek them out) is closely tied into what men believe makes them more attractive to the opposite sex. And this isn’t always true — at least not in the beginning stages of romance. Now, to my next point. My last ex-significant other thought he was “nice” to me. “Respectful”. (In his own words.) Let me tell you what this “nice,… Read more »
Hi Lisa Marie
It’s a difficult subject. I was in a relationship where I at the beginning tried to share problems and also let her know when she had (unintentionally) hurt me. What I eventually found out was that she was using this against me, in a sort of emotional blackmail, I don”t know. At least it didn’t do any good in our emotional Connection. So instead I started to bottle it up inside, thinking I was wrong to have my feelings hurt.
I see Erin and Archy’s arguments showcase the general thought process of women and men. Women do tend to be aware that society and the media judges their worth on looks and (and why not?) get defensive about it. Also Archy, patronising Erin by calling her bitter over explaining why she thinks that men are so invested in looks makes you seem just like the guys she is talking about. But on the other hand, I see why Archy is annoyed that so many men are being tarred with the same brush and that the subject of the woman in… Read more »
I know full well it annoys many women, I spend quite a bit of time trying to help my female friends raise their self-esteem by pointing out qualities that don’t involve their body. “Also Archy, patronising Erin by calling her bitter over explaining why she thinks that men are so invested in looks makes you seem just like the guys she is talking about.” It’s not just that comment, this isn’t the first time she’s been called out for broad brush ideas about men and it gets very tiring. If you’ve seen her comments on this and many other articles,… Read more »
Granted, I don’t have much experience in this area, but I’ve found that when people talk about being “nice” they are referring to decisions of inaction, whereas when they are being “kind” they’re talking about acts.
That may be why “nice guy” is boring. “Look at all the awful things typical people do that I’m not doing!” Whereas the kind guy might be totally clueless, but at least he’s looking out for engaging things to actually do?
Please. I have been through this before. I married a nice guy. One who fits every facet of nice and perfect. the real reason men don’t get that being a “nice” guy works, is that they are all competing for the same 1% of women . You are nice, well, go for a nice girl. Not “Hot” girl. If 10,000 guys go for the exact same size 2 perfect women, guess what, you are competing against the perfect “alpha” males, and women who were trained to only desire alpha male(jerk) types. the issue is that the “nice” guys, the imperfect… Read more »
They’d turn Buffy down, too. She was broke.
Well said, can’t agree more!
Most of the “nice guys” I’ve known of get “friendzoned” by all types of women, overweight, underweight, normal weight, tall, short, popular, loners, “hotties”, “uglies”. Some go for hotties, some do not. You’re generalizing about a large group of people….
And there’s plenty of us nice guys who are want a woman that doesn’t necessarily fall in that “hottie” category you’re talking about. But of course talking about that would mean actually acknowledging that guys have varying tastes which would in turn chip away some of that “women have a hard time finding men because men just go for the conventional hotties” defense. Even when going for the non-conventional women we still get told our reasoning. We say we like Buffy we’re told it must because she’s a size 2. We say we like Cordellia we’re told it must because… Read more »
@Danny:
+1! Thank you!
…….. I think you’re hanging out with the wrong women. The fact that you could write that post means you and I could have epic geekout sessions about why each and every one of those women is amazing, and why each and every one of them sucked. I might say you were a dumbass for liking a sanctimonious twit like Buffy, but I wouldn’t assume it was because SMG is bitty. Nor would any of the women I associate with, though the non-geeky ones might watch us with mildly amused indulgence. And as for Cordelia, are we talking her Buffy… Read more »
“I think you’re hanging out with the wrong women. ”
Could be. It’s possible many women are like that and so women like yourself could be rare. My best female friends are damn rare for sure in how they act!
I’ll admit a delightful abundance in my beloved Portland, but they weren’t all that hard to find in Lubbock, TX, either.
Many women are both. “Many (wo)men” isn’t as many as we think when you’re talking about half the species, after all. I mean, I’m 33. I’d guess I’ve really known maybe 30 women since high school. If 20 of them act in a certain way, is it fair to extrapolate conclusions on the other 150 million in the country? You were talking about scientists and philosophers earlier. What do they say about anecdotal evidence? 😉
To L:
Please. I have been through this before. I married a nice guy. One who fits every facet of nice and perfect. the real reason men don’t get that being a “nice” guy works, is that they are all competing for the same 1% of women
Would you say the same to the women complaining about there not being any good men anymore? That they are all just competing/going for/hanging out with the wrong men?
*thumbs up*
The problem isn’t being boring.
The problem is trying to be anything you’re not…trying to be anything you THINK someone else “expects” from you.
There is nothing more attractive to a person looking for a guy/gal like you, than YOU being 100% unapologetically and authentically YOU.
What is unattractive is a person who is not at all clear who they are, what they want, and what they believe.
This is “unattractive” because we cannot attract that which cannot clearly see us.
When I see guys and gals get this clarity, marriages and dating make drastic changes.
How do the people who work with this with you avoid getting stuck in a box? I suppose some people come from backgrounds or have belief systems that have clear beliefs. What happens to the philosophers, scientists, engineers, etc… people who might say, “I don’t believe, I think. My ideas aren’t fixed, they’re fluid. They’re always up for change, in response to new experiences and new interpretations.” Is a mentality of flexibility, adaptability, having rules of thumb rather than rules inherently unattractive? I certainly get that some women (and men) crave certainty. For some of us, it is stifling. For… Read more »
“Is a mentality of flexibility, adaptability, having rules of thumb rather than rules inherently unattractive?”
Certainly not to me. Actually, I’d probably say it’s a prerequisite for genuine intelligence, without which, NOBODY is attractive. Again, to me.
Even if this advice works, it only works if, in fact, you actually are a nice guy and not: a) pretending to be one, or b) deluded into thinking you are one, or c) defining “nice” with such a low bar that everyone except Jack the Ripper is a nice guy. There is a small percentage of men who are awful men claiming to be “nice guys,” enough of them that the phrase “nice guy” is practically worthless now. If you have diagnosed yourself as a nice guy, you really should get a second opinion on that, just to be… Read more »
I don’t doubt that many of the “nice guys” get told they’re nice by a lotttt of people. Usually they’re the frustrated type, not the entitled type.
“He touches on a lot of the clichés to which “nice guys” are prone: “In her eyes, nice is weak — it’s boring.” Eventually, however, the girl realizes that she wanted a nice guy all along, but he’s already moved on. Have you heard this story before?” I’ve heard this story before. What makes my experience unique is I heard it from a woman. She told me that she was in an abusive relationship with a guy. They had a child together. She eventually married a nice, boring guy. They had two kids together and he’s taken to her first… Read more »
Of course, it’s significant to the story that she be “drop dead gorgeous” because otherwise, if she was simply a regular woman, she’d deserve to die alone for rejecting all those fabulous “nice guys”. The fact that she is “drop dead gorgeous” is what really gives the men reading it hope. Not the fact that she was simply a regular woman that learned from her previous mistakes.
No. It is saying that she is with a nice man out of choice, and not out of necessity because she can find no other. “Drop dead gorgeous” is just a cipher for “could have any man she wants, therefore can chose freely”. Granted, it is a somewhat problematic way to put it, but the point still stands.
“If she wanted adventure, she could go into any club and walk out with a “bad” or “interesting” boy within minutes.”
She missed this part.
Theorema, I’m very aware that “drop dead gorgeous” is code for “could have any man she wants”. What I take away from this is that while men want to be valued for being “nice”, they want to value women for how they look. Hence the reason John thought it was important to comment on her looks and not her own “niceness”. You do realize that just because a woman is beautiful doesn’t mean she’s a kind person right? You do realize that by saying that because a woman is really beautiful, and that she could have any guy she wanted,… Read more »
Your bitterness is showing Erin. He used “drop dead gorgeous” to signify that she will have a lot of potential suitors and the nice guy was the one she chose. “So lets be hoenst about what you guys are really saying. You don’t care about how nice a woman is. You want this: “Nice guy scores drop dead goregous hottie.” Not: “Nice guy scores nice girl.” Oh the irony. Funny how you both failed to see it.” They failed to see it because they weren’t thinking that at all, YOU thought that and projected it, womansplained it onto their conversation.… Read more »
Like I said, it is merely a cipher. John wanted to convey the sense of “a woman who could have any man she wants”, and unthinkingly used an automatic, conventional phrasing to describe such a woman. It does not mean he necessarily meant it in a literal sense. He might just as well have said “an incredibly attractive woman” (not disclosing what the attraction is based on) or a charismatic woman, or a woman who is the heart of every party. Would that satisfy you or do you insist that it is misogynist to assume that not every woman can… Read more »
@ Erin I understand the value men place on looks are a sore spot for you, but there are a few things to consider. First, we all have expectations for our partners. If we were to list them and rank them. Guess what, looks physical attraction whatever you want to call it will be on the list somewhere at least for people under 40. Yes, men’s values change during the stages of their lives as well. People assume that men will always have it ranked number one. For me it would be in the top ten, but my top five… Read more »
@ Erin
Sorry, didn’t mean to sound so harsh. Not sure how else to explain that looks / sexual comparability / sexual attraction is important. It’s not the most important thing and the importance changes as the relationship evolves It’s one of the first things we notice. It takes on higher importance in the initial stages.
If there a way to tell whether a woman is kind, compassionate, intelligent, etc.. before engaging with her, that’s a secret every guy would like to know.
Arbitrary personal characterizations from you Archy? I’m not surprised. You do know why you do them right? Because you think it dismisses me. It doesn’t and I guess you don’t feel that your argument is strong enough on it’s own, you have to take cheap shots in the process. By the way, show me what part of my comments actually relays “bitterness”? I totally think people should be physically attracted to their partners lol. “He used “drop dead gorgeous” to signify that she will have a lot of potential suitors and the nice guy was the one she chose. “… Read more »
“Arbitrary personal characterizations from you Archy? I’m not surprised. You do know why you do them right? Because you think it dismisses me. It doesn’t and I guess you don’t feel that your argument is strong enough on it’s own, you have to take cheap shots in the process.” Wrong again. I actually agree with many of your points when you don’t apply them to an entire gender. I am not trying to dismiss you, I am calling out parts of what you are saying which show a bitter attitude and attack men as a group. After this many years,… Read more »
No, this isn’t derailing Theorema, this is a *key* issue in this discussion. Because it shows a clear distinction how men value women and how men want women to value them. Which don’t align. John didn’t say “she was an amazingly nice woman” to insinuate she could have any man she wanted and do you know why? Because being “nice” isn’t even enough for men to want to date a woman or see value in her romantically. Yet here you guys are making “niceness” a bedrock on why women should pick men. And it doesn’t matter if he said “drop… Read more »
@ Erin
There is a huge difference between a man who sees a woman in a bar and a woman who’s known a man for quite a while. Most of the complaints on GMP about “nice” guys are from men who have DEMONSTRATED that they are nice. If you want to write an article on women who’ve been friend zoned by guys they like even after all the wonderful qualities they’ve shown them, do so. It’s a story we probably need to hear, otherwise they don’t equate regardless of how much you’d like them to.
Ah! And it doesn’t matter if he said “drop dead gorgeous” or “incredibly attractive woman”, those two sentences mean the exact same thing! They both focus on th woman’s looks Now this is fascinating. To me the word “attractive” means “has the ability to attract people”, which can be by looks, intellect, charisma, wealth, a number of different attributes. For you it means looks alone. My girlfriend as well as my past relationships are attractive, although none has conventionally great looks. I find them very attractive. You wouldn’t, though. Care to remind me again who it is here that operates… Read more »
“No, this isn’t derailing Theorema, this is a *key* issue in this discussion. Because it shows a clear distinction how men value women and how men want women to value them. Which don’t align.” THERE you go again, why do you do it? Men and women are not monoliths, There is no singe thought process of men or women. There is NO ONE WAY men value women, this is why your comments are so utterly frustrating. Do you truly belive all men vale women the same?? “John didn’t say “she was an amazingly nice woman” to insinuate she could have… Read more »
“can have any man she wants” because she is drop dead gorgeous…. for what? sex? or true partnership?
Not any man, specifically a “bad” boy so that would equate to “adventure”, which probably includes sex and other “non-boring” things. I think some are arguing that that is a component of a long term relationship. I doubt anyone is arguing that this is sufficient for a long term relationship although it would help her establish initial contact.
John, do you believe it’s productive or even fair to suggest that I have romantic relationships with women because I express things that have been difficult for me with men? As if you don’t have things you contend with when it comes to women. Thanks a lot. All our values change during different stages of our lives, not just men’s. If you want grace given to men for the fact that it actually takes them half their lives to finally appreciate women in a new way, where is that grace for women in return? Women change throughout their lives too… Read more »
I think you might have misunderstood. I believe with “drop dead gorgeous”, John is attempting to derail the potential cynics who say “she only accepted the good guy because she can’t do any better” (whatever “better” means to them). Of course these same cynics would probably then rag on the husband for “raising someone else’s kid.” But counter 100 of their arguements and they’ll just come up with argument #101.
You completely missed the point that a guy doesn’t need to be bad to be interesting. And I guarantee that your friend isn’t happily married to someone who bores her to tears.
@ Megan Sailsbury No I doubt he bores her to tears, but part of it is that he doesn’t control her. I’ve gone to bars with her after work while he stayed home to watch the kids. I have a male friend whose relationship seems to be the same way. He was very good with the ladies and dated one “hottie” (sorry Erin) after another. A woman who isn’t conventionally attractive (but is the nicest person you could want to meet and loves him dearly) asked him out. She was the only woman to ever ask him out and he… Read more »
“I’m not sure that you always have to do interesting things with the person you love.” No, you certainly don’t. That’s not the message I got from the article, though. The advice was more about how to be memorable and attractive to someone who barely knows you. And, it should go without saying, but not every person is going to be attracted to the same things. Like, the author suggested white water rafting for a first date. That would be a horrible approach if you were dating me, but it’s just an example. A stand-in for “don’t be indistinguishable from… Read more »
I wonder why some guys in here asociate adventure with looking for drama-filled relationships ir bars and etc.? Adventure can be something as simple as going for a picnic in a city park or a bicycle trip if you never do that. Yet god forbid changing your routine ways, right? The normal guy who can offer a healthy relationship is less exciting in comparison to rollercoasters with alpha type of man, however, a woman with healthy self-esteem is able to evaluate what he has to offer. The issue appears at the point when a guy who lives a dull life… Read more »
Adventure to me = Camping, hiking, biking, being in the outdoors or doing something quite different. It could be that a lot of guys have heard “boring”, etc referred to guys who like the nice quiet life or even typical activities like hiking, biking, camping vs the bad boys, criminals, drama-filled guys, etc. Judging by some comments I see, it appears some guys also resent the idea of having to be someone’s sole source of entertainment, or try so hard to please her. Like this comment “So “nice” is not it…we need to jump hoops and obstacles to entertain you.… Read more »
Who says the guys who can’t get dates (i.e. the “nice” ones we’re discussing) doesn’t go on adventures?
But I am boring, and I do need human emotional contact. Why should I lie about either of those things? I’m not looking to go on adventures or do things out of the ordinary. I want to live in one house and work one job, and drive one car, and eat at the same select group of restraunts and cook the same foods and dress in the same group of clothes day in and day out. I’m not interested in being wild or crazy or adventurous, anyone who is looking for that is looking for the wrong person. What I… Read more »
Being nice is not boring, the problem is people today are bored with themselves and their own life so they want someone else to take responsibility for bringing adventure to their doors step. Why should that be the other persons responsibility to bring that into the life of the person who is interested in them? why not bring that to their own life instead?
I think Flyingkal is on to something but I would describe it a bit different. The whole “nice guy finish last” trope has found it’s way in the male (and even female) concience because it is the thing alot of women say when they break up with someone. The problem is; most women are not honest about why they break up with someone. This can be for many reasons but the most common one is because it would be considered mean. Having someone break up with you is already horrible and it would be even worse if you added some… Read more »
Many of these issues have a lot to do with how many women are raised to not be confrontational, and rely on a more indirect form of speaking in general. Quite a lot of guys are told they’re such nice n sweet guys, told “I wish I could find a guy LIKE you” and even society at times reinforces the notion of nice = a sexy trait to women but many women are not also saying what ELSE they need for attraction so you end up with guys feeling confused as they are practically told being nice = super sexy… Read more »
For once, I agree with Archy
I’m buying lotto tickets as I speak 😛
Ditto.
“Add in dodgy romantic movies where the best friends fall in love, it can really set a guy on the wrong path ”
Also, add in dodgy adventure movies, where the woman inevitably falls in love with the guy who helps her get out of trouble.
The Problem Isn’t Being Nice; The Problem Is Being Boring
Nope.
The problem is people routinely assigning every kind of negative connotation to the word “nice” that it really isn’t, just to suit their purpose.
Nice isn’t Boring in any dictionary I’ve seen.
And Nice isn’t Boring unless you think having your boundaries respected is boring. But if you think so, by all means, you can have it!
And at the same time assigning all positive values to “bad”. Just look at all the women here and elsewhere who declare, “I married a Bad Boy and it is so great, because he is so gentle and kind to me!”
Maybe this is a reason for men never to call themselves “nice”: You can assume that in your listener’s ears the word will never mean what you want it to mean.
That was the entire point of the article. Perhaps you should reread it.
Alright, let’s take an example then. Motorcycles. Is riding motorcycles boring? Is it boring if you drive defensively, rigorously adhere to any speed limit and other traffic rules? Is it boring if you find opportunities to bend the rules slightly now and then, e.g. speeding on empty roads with god visibility? Or, is it only not-boring if you constantly drive with a total disregard of your own personal safety as well as your passenger’s and everyone else around you? (Think about all those youtube clips you’ve seen with a guy on a sportbike with a skimpily clad girl on the… Read more »
That is a really terrible analogy. I honestly have no clue what point you’re trying to make. Whether or not something is boring or interesting depends on what you bring to it, AND whether or not it interests the other person. The point of the article was not “ride motorcycles and you’ll get laid.” It was that if you want to attract someone, you need to make yourself appealing. You can’t just be relatively inoffensive and expect them to swoon at your feet, which is what a lot of self-proclaimed “nice guys” seem to think. You have to actually bring… Read more »
If you are honestly clueless, maybe you should make an effort to understand it before deeming it as really terrible? Or are you just trying to move the goalposts? The article describes the values of adventure and excitement for not “being boring”. There’s also several posts below talking about the values of hobbies and interest. Obviously, to most people, it’s not as easy as “ride a motorcycle and you’ll get laid”. And that is precisely why I asked for some, let’s call it qualifiers, to the “adventure and excitement” statement. (As I said, the motorcycle was just an example…) I… Read more »
I did make an effort, and it’s completely nonsensical. Which is precisely why it’s terrible.
Yeah, everyone has hobbies and interests. The point the author was making is that you need to draw on those to stand out. It’s not “have hobbies and interests,” it’s SHOW HER your hobbies and interests. Something that a lot of people fail to do, for some reason. I actually asked a date what his interests were once, and he flatly refused to tell me. Think we went out again?
Megan Salisbury:
Yeah, everyone has hobbies and interests. The point the author was making is that you need to draw on those to stand out.
That really goes without saying, doesn’t it?
Are you deducing that every dateless guy acts the same as your one date once did?
What was your arguments on anecdotal evidence again…?
“That really goes without saying, doesn’t it?”
No. It should, but apparently it doesn’t, seeing as a LOT of people – not men, people – don’t seem to get it at all.
“Are you deducing”
No.
“No. It should, but apparently it doesn’t, seeing as a LOT of people – not men, people – don’t seem to get it at all.” Ok. And just so we are talking about the same thing, I will try and draw from your words: “The point the author was making is that you need to draw on those to stand out. It’s not “have hobbies and interests,” it’s SHOW HER your hobbies and interests.” Having interests is not enough (especially not if you try to hide them, like your date did…). But just showing them is not enough either. So… Read more »
Another ‘dating advisor’ who assumes that his readers have no problem meeting/finding/encountering potential dates. What’s the value of your advice to the guy who has trouble finding women to meet in the first place?
Precisely this. A fundamental assumption in EVERY. SINGLE. POST. on this topic is that the guy can easily find compatible, available women and ask them out. If a girl doesn’t like you, just ask out any of the 30 other ones you surely know! After all, everyone lives in Manhattan, is conventionally attractive, constantly attends social events populated by an abundance of women who share their interests and values, and spent their entire childhood with abundant opportunities to socialize on equal footing with other people of both genders. If you’re weird (and I mean *really* weird, not hipster I-want-to-seem-interesting-even-though-I’m-not “weird”),… Read more »
This has got to be the lamest bullshit excuse I’ve ever seen on this site. You’re socially isolated? Join the club. It sucks. It ROYALLY sucks. But your failure to put yourself out there and find a woman who’s attracted to you doesn’t obligate the women you do know to settle for you. The article doesn’t assume it’s easy for you to meet people. It doesn’t assume that “everyone lives in Manhattan, is conventionally attractive, constantly attends social events populated by an abundance of women who share their interests and values, and spent their entire childhood with abundant opportunities to… Read more »
Pretty harsh criticism there. The OP has trouble FINDING women to meet, or did you mean to reply to MCA? He/the op may be in an area where there is a higher proportion of men to women (such as where I live) or many of the decent catches are already taken (also where I live, by decent I mean non-violent/abusive/etc), even joined a social group with 95% women, 20-30 of them whom are ALL dating or married whereas some of the guys are single. I’ve joined up to Okcupid, Plenty of Fish, etc but even after writing thoughtful messages where… Read more »
It was aimed at both of them.
Yes, it’s tough. It’s tough for me too. It’s still my responsibility. Not knowing the right guy for me doesn’t exempt me from being attractive if I want to get a partner, does it?
The thing is, let’s break down the logic of “but I have trouble meeting people” as a criticism of the article, which is how it’s presented. What’s the thinking there? That since you don’t know the right women, you don’t need to interest them? The mistake here is not being made by the author.
It didn’t bother me personally, this article isn’t meant to address the ways to find women. I just meant to comment that we need other articles to fill in the advice for them.
The mere fact that you think “You’re socially isolated? Join the club.” means you have never truly been socially isolated. “Not everyone likes me instantly” is not the same as spending your entire childhood almost completely isolated. That sometimes your friends didn’t invite you to parties is not on the same level as that one brief time when you were overjoyed because you actually have a total of 2 friends, rather than the usual 1 or zero. Check your privilege and stop assuming that the slightest experience of an vaguely analogous emotion gives you the right to comment on our… Read more »
Guess again, you pretentious little shit. When I moved to my current city, I didn’t make a single friend for 6 years. You know why? Because I was severely depressed and made no effort to socialize. I only left the house for groceries and doctors. Your fantasies about my life have no relevance to the discussion, so keep them to yourself.
Hurts having your experiences and pain casually dismissed as insignificant, doesn’t it? Enjoy that taste of your own medicine? More importantly, you missed the central point of my post, which is bad odds. Sometimes, bad odds can be of your own making or due to external factors (small town, depression, being a jerk), but other times they can simply be because who you are, at the core, is different from and horrifying to the vast majority. For instance, I have always had a driving passion for studying reptiles, alive and extinct, and this is central to who I am, my… Read more »
No, not really. I simply dislike whiny, pretentious twits who blame everyone else for their own problems. But you’ll note I didn’t dismiss your experiences. I told you not to blame anyone else for them. There’s a difference.
As for the rest, now you’re making excuses. People are not so terrified of reptiles that anyone who studies them is automatically repulsive, and they never were. I don’t know whether it’s dishonesty or delusion, but not shocking either way.
*Note to IT – Fix the damn comment threading. Between that and the random page reloading, it makes GMP the worst commenting layout since Youtube. Are you stupid, illiterate, or just so fixated on your “Pull yourself up by your bottstraps” horseshit to discern the actual point, in spite of it being spelled out for you multiple times?The stupidity of saying “stop blaming others” about an activity (dating) which is entirely based around interactions with others and the impressions/feelings of others defies belief. Are you even reading, or just using this as en excuse to feel self-righteous? Let’s try it… Read more »
No, the point is that the big mean world is not going to change itself to accomodate you. And, please. I haven’t tried to analyze you. You, otoh, have indulged in quite a bit of speculation about me, all of which conveniently serves to justify your whining.
But whatever. You are clearly not worth my time.
Megan seems like a pretty cool person — has an opinion, backs it up, tries to avoid personal attacks.
I feel like we can all learn about something through reading this comment thread 😉
in response to OP, I think there is enough reading material on this site to paint a picture for your answer.