Ozy Frantz discusses what is and is not sexual objectification, and how common stereotypes about it are rooted in misandrist assumptions.
Via Feministe, we have a really startling example of misandry from some gentleman at Aggie Catholics:
Something I never really wanted to post about, but feel I have to, because I don’t think that young women quite understand the problem.
Yesterday when I logged onto Facebook, I had several pictures of college co-eds in bathing suits, who are friends on Facebook, come up on my feed. In response, I posted the following on Facebook as my status:
“A note to young women on Facebook, from a guy who works with young men struggling with pornography…you might look good in your bathing suit, but if you were able to see yourself through 20 year-old male eyes, which are struggling to see you as a human and not an object, you would never post that pic. Just a thought.”
In my opinion, this is one of the more common slurs against male sexuality, commonly created by people who do not understand the concept of “objectification”– that men looking at women sexually are inherently objectifying them.
Objectification means treating a person as an object– i.e., as the opposite of a subject. Think of it like grammar: a subject goes about doing things (in the technical term, it has “agency”); an object has things done to it. For a long time in Western culture women have been treated as objects: the damsel in distress is rescued but does not do much herself, and could generally be replaced with a piece of paper that says MacGuffin on it for all she contributes to the plot.
How does this relate to sex? Sometimes people are treated as “sex objects.” That is, they are passive things to be looked at or have acts performed on them; they themselves have no sexual agency, no ability to choose. I will now provide a helpful guide to things that are and are not objectifying.
Not Objectification: Finding a person attractive.
Objectification: Finding a person’s attractiveness to be the only important thing about a person.
Not Objectification: Having mutualistic, enthusiastic, enjoyable sex.
Objectification: Using another person as a glorified masturbation aid.
Not Objectification: Establishing a relationship, whether casual or committed, with another person.
Objectification: Viewing another person as an annoying impediment to access to their genitalia.
It is important to note that most people who are sexually objectifying are (a) complete douches and (b) not that good in bed.
However, what this gentleman is assuming is that male sexuality is inherently objectifying. That is, that men by definition are incapable of viewing women as people, as opposed to as sexual objects.
I don’t know about you, but I presume that when most people who are attracted to ladies see a picture of a hot lady in a bikini, their reaction is “I would like to engage in mutually pleasurable sex with her!” With kink this gets a little more complicated, but even so it almost always boils down to “I would like to engage in mutually pleasurable sex that looks like it isn’t to an outside observer with her!” or even “I would like to fantasize about engaging in sex that is not mutually pleasurable with her, but if we ever had sex I would like to engage in mutually pleasurable sex with her!” I feel this is the normal person way to go about things.
However, in our culture male sexuality is often viewed as “predatory,” as “degrading,” as “creepy.” Sometimes this gets to the line of rape apologia, as when people suggest that women ought to not wear short skirts or flirt or make out lest men, unable to control themselves, be driven to rape them. (Oddly, these are often the sort of people who think that feminists think that all men are rapists.) And because people live down to low expectations, all too often male sexuality becomes perverted from its natural form into predation.
In this schema, a man looking at a woman in a bikini has to think of her as a pussy with a flap of skin around it. As soon as the penis turns on, the ability to treat women as human beings turns off. The only way men can respect women for their minds and personalities as well as their bodies is for women to dress “modestly,” a word with an ever-changing definition that generally means “a skirt two inches longer than the one you’re wearing.” No man is ever able to treat a woman in a bikini as anything more than a hole to be fucked.
I hope I don’t have to explain how misandric that is.
Side note: One of the commenters on the Feministe post links to a study on objectification cited by the gentleman from Aggie Catholics. What the study actually shows is that men with high levels of hostile sexism tend to objectify women. This tells you some interesting things about that gentleman’s psyche (i.e. he assumes that all men have high levels of hostile sexism) and is also something that would clearly not be predicted by feminist ideas at all. (Note: the previous sentence may contain sarcasm.)
Photo— theinvisiblewombat/Flickr
About ozyfrantz
Really? The comment that sparked this article spanked of misogyny to me. The fact that women have to cover themselves up just in case a man finds her attractive? That its their fault that the man would relapse, and so they should take care of what they do. Fuck that shit. Why should women have to take into consideration how men will view them before posting a picture of themselves? I dont think it was a misandric slur, as he directly refers to men struggling with porn addictions, so is referencing the fact that it will be those men who already clearly have out of control sex drives who will be effected.
“Why should women have to take into consideration how men will view them before posting a picture of themselves?”
If you believe the feminist argument against porn then they should take into consideration the effect on males just as pornstars are supposed to take into account how their activity in porn contributes to the objectification of women. This is a straightforward feminist argument but now that it conflicts with women’s cherished freedom they are against it. Sorry but you can’t have your cake and eat it too. If your against porn then you should be against any female display that could cause men to objectify women. Including women in bikinis!! After all how exactly are women in bikinis different than the SI Swimsuit edition.
I would consider myself a sex-positive feminist, so perhaps ask my standing on something before countering a non-existant point. So ima just go ahead and eat up all my delicious cake!
But seriously, if a woman wants to do porn, thats fine, as long as she consents to it. Yes there are issues with porn objectifying women, but there is also a lot of porn out there which does not, and really promotes consensuality and shows the woman speaking about how she feels doing it.
If anybody wants to post pictures of themselves wearing anything they want, they should do it, without having to fear that some people may think negatively. Freedom of expression should be upheld. Telling a woman to not post pictures of herself, lest they cause a man to view her sexually, is oppressing the woman, and not allowing her her own freedom.
Porn = women are just bodies that provide sexual pleasure to men.
Women trying to look attractive = individuals with feelings, minds, wants, dreams, ect that also happen to physically attractive.
The point of this article is to make that distinction.
“Porn = women are just bodies that provide sexual pleasure to men.”
Except that that doesn’t really describe porn.
Porn = a depiction of some men and women’s bodies that may provide sexual pleasure to some men and women.
They’re not necessarily mutually exclusive concepts. “All men are rapists, therefore women should dress modestly” is both misandric and misogynist (misanthropic?).
Yes, but that isn’t really the comment that is in question here. The comment quoted at the start of the article directly refers to sex addicts, who potentially are more disposed to rape/sexual assault, so telling women to dress modestly is only misogynistic in this case.
And even in your case, its not an even split of misandry/misogyny. By saying that all men are rapists, yes ok, this is an overgeneralisation, but it contains truth in that the overwhelming majority of rapists are indeed men. But, by telling women then to dress modestly, implies that it is the womans fault if she gets raped, not that the man raped her because he was a rapist, but because she was dressing in whatever clothes she wanted to wear.
The overwhelming majority, what, 60% of rapists in the last year alone according to the CDC stats?
The “Overwhelming majority” word is commonly used to dismiss the seriousness of female on male rape, most of the time I see it is when someone has mentioned women rape men and straight away a comment comes in “oh but the mennn do it moreee”. I’m not sure it’s really beneficial to use the overwhelming majority terms anymore given the CDC stats result, if it was 99% of rapists are men then sure but not when there are heavy levels on either side. Be careful with your use of overwhelming majority, the overwhelming majority of child abuse is committed by the mother, would that sound ok since the mothers are higher in % of perpetration?
Would the misandry come from the fact the majority of negative press porn gets is directly aimed at men?
When he says “20 year-old male eyes”, is he referring ONLY to the porn addicts, and do porn addicts have trouble seeing women as human vs objects?
@Dylan
“the article directly refers to sex addicts, who potentially are more disposed to rape/sexual assault,”
Actually in refers to porn addicts. I’m not sure if there is a link between porn use and sexual assault. I’m not sure that I would even expect the link to be directly proportional. It seems that an argument can be made that porn use could actually decrease the incidence of sexual assault as men self pleasure. Here is a New York Daily News article
“A Clemson University study suggests it might.
Todd Kendall, an economics professor at Clemson University, published a study that found “the arrival of the internet was associated with a reduction in rape incidence.”
He notes that “association” is not causality, but he does point out that “it is notable that growth in internet usage had no apparent effect on other crimes.”
The rate of forcible rape in the past 15 years has declined 30 percent nationwide, according to Bob Dyer in a recent column on Ohio.com. Meanwhile, he reports that “never has pornography been more readily available.” Dyer attributes the decrease in rapes at least in part to the increased prevalence of porn.”
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-02-02/news/17916706_1_incest-national-network-online-rainn
“directly refers to sex addicts”
No actually, it directly refers to looking through a 20-year old males eyes. He acknowledges he works with young men struggling with porn, doesn’t say sex addict. furthermore, that only informs us where his opinion of 20 year old males comes from, but does not restrict his opinions to just those struggling youths, but rather 20 year old males in general.
“but it contains truth in that the overwhelming majority of rapists are indeed men”
When the definition of rape includes a woman forcibly enveloping a man, then that statistic will change drastically, as the CDC report informs.
Overall, you demonstrate a rather misandric view yourself, marginalizing the misandry and justifying the underlying excuses rather than acknowledging and condemning it
@ Dylan
“I dont think it was a misandric slur, as he directly refers to men struggling with porn addictions, so is referencing the fact that it will be those men who already clearly have out of control sex drives who will be effected.”
What he said
“from a guy who works with young men struggling with pornography…you might look good in your bathing suit, but if you were able to see yourself through 20 year-old male eyes, which are struggling to see you as a human and not an object, you would never post that pic. Just a thought.”
If you look at it from this perspective, I don’t think it’s misandric or misogynistic at all. It sounds as if the author is saying that women should be aware that some men suffer from porn addiction and should consider the fact that she could unintentionally cause someone else hardship. It sounds as if he’s asking them to be considerate to others. If I smoked, should I refrain in the presence of a pregnant woman even if I had a right to light up? Granted you can’t always refrain from eating peanuts in front of a person who has a peanut allergy because it’s hard to tell if they have one, but simply making someone aware that others struggle with an addiction and asking them to be considerate doesn’t equal misogyny.
Hey, Dylan. Guess what?
It’s possible for a misandric statement to be misogynist as well. This is, in fact, usually the case. Any gendered statement can become insult to either when properly worded.
What does this mean? It means the kind of BS this article talks about is serious, and affects us all. Saying it’s not misandric just because you find it misogynist is a good way of missing an important part of the information.
It’s like seeing men’s high crime rate, and instead of asking “why are men becoming that way”, you say “this is why we need to protect ourselves against men.” You miss half of the solution when you focus on one gender.
I’m glad someone finally made this point, that there’s a difference between thinking someone is attractive and thinking that person is just an object. There’s a difference between seeing a person as HAVING a body and seeing that person as ONLY a body. Insofar as objectification exists, it happens along a spectrum. There is in fact quite a huge gap between noticing a woman’s body and taking away all of her humanity.
People have bodies. Our minds and personalities travel around in them all the time. I’m not sure what the alternative is to noticing someone’s physical characteristics, except blinding ourselves or trying to impose rigid internal thought control. Perhaps if we could get past the Pauline Christian/Cartesian dualism of mind and body as segregated things, we would be a little more comfortable in our skins.
Besides, I don’t see why the human brain can’t appreciate multiple aspects at the same time. It is in fact possible to feel more than one thing at the same time, contrary to stereotypes about men only being able to hold one thought at a time.
I sometimes wonder if objectification is something that blind men do as well as sighted men. Do blind men objectify a woman’s voice and sounds and scent? And if so, is this just as “bad,” or is it somehow less superficial because it’s not using visual inputs? Anyone out there know anything about this?
Dylan
, “and not allowing her her own freedom.”
“not allowing”. Saying a person shouldn’t do something is “not allowing”? Saying somebody shouldn’t say something is not allowing them to speak. Makes perfect sense.
Look up “allow”.
In this, I mean a freedom to dress how one wishes to dress, without fear of being blamed or judged. By telling women to not dress a certain way, it contributes to laying blame upon the victom. This takes away from a womans freedom. Because if there exists a society in which women are blamed for dressing “like a slut” then women will be forced by social pressure to conform to these backwards notions. So yes, this doesn’t allow a woman to her freedom to dress as she wants without fear of judgement.
@Dylan, why should women be exempt from having their public actions and expressions judged by others? Grownups in civil society should consider how their actions are likely to be viewed by others. If a woman wants to post pictures of herself in a bikini, more power to her, but it’s not misogynistic for someone to see the picture and think it was in poor taste or needlessly provocative. (Nor is it misandrist to assume that many men might be aroused by the photo.) People naturally make judgments about what they see others doing all the time. Such is the nature of social beings. If a woman’s (or anyone’s) public display is in poor taste, then she’ll likely experience some blowback. This isn’t misogyny, it’s just human nature. By the way, the “inciting comment” was not an attack on women, it was merely pointing out that if those women were to look at the situation from another person’s perspective (in this case, the perspective of a young man who’s addicted to porn, I guess) then they likely would have chosen not to post the picture. I don’t agree with you or with Ozy–the statement is neither an example of misandry nor misogyny. It’s merely someone recognizing and pointing out that our actions have an effect on others. This fact doesn’t oblige anyone to change the way they behave, but many people do willingly moderate their actions and expressions out of compassion or respect for those who might be adversely affected. Such people are not victims of oppression, they are merely considerate.
“it was merely pointing out that if those women were to look at the situation from another person’s perspective (in this case, the perspective of a young man who’s addicted to porn, I guess) then they likely would have chosen not to post the picture.”
This reminds me of an article on this site about how men should avoid getting on an elevator alone with a woman because she might be scared or uncomfortable. He meant the best and put himself in her shoes, but as a woman, I thought it was ridiculous to have to have that go through your head every time you’re in a situation with a woman (especially if you’re just trying to get home from work after a long day and looking forward to your wife/gf, dinner, and a glass of wine). So a person shouldn’t post pictures of himself at a wine tasting because he might have a recovering alcoholic as a friend? A person shouldn’t post pictures of her wedding because she might have a friend who’s going through a divorce? What about pregnancy pictures? Maybe you have a friend who’s dealing with a miscarriage. The typical picture of your feet while reading a book outdoors with an accompanying drink. Maybe you have a friend with a foot fetish and it’ll set him/her off. It’s one thing to consider the feelings of others, it’s another to plan your life and what you enjoy doing/posting around every person who might be your friend (especially in social media venues, where you’ll have anywhere from 100-5,000 ‘friends’).
A valid point, Aya. Certainly a slippery slope can form when one begins to censor one’s expressions and behaviors out of concern for the possibly adverse effect they might have on others. I was merely pointing out that I didn’t consider the original Facebook statement to be an attack on women, but just a reminder that others might struggle with such photos. A woman who is concerned about being objectified might consider this before posting such photos for 100-5,000 others (plus however many friends of friends, etc. might see it.)
However, my larger point is that nobody has the right to escape judgment from others when they dress or act a certain way. We may have the right to dress however we like, but to claim exemption from others’ critiques of our intentional appearance is unwarranted
and unrealistic. Dylan seems to claim the right of women to flaunt and dress provocatively while demanding immunity from others’ response to these choices.
@ Aya
“This reminds me of an article on this site about how men should avoid getting on an elevator alone with a woman because she might be scared or uncomfortable. He meant the best and put himself in her shoes, but as a woman, I thought it was ridiculous to have to have that go through your head every time you’re in a situation with a woman”
I’ve thought of this myself and though I believe that you have to live your life, that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t take other’s feelings into consideration. Maybe I’m walking in the same direction as a woman late at night. I normally walk to the curb when I wait for the light to change. I’m walking behind her as she walks to the curb. Should I walk up to her as I’d normally do in the day with many people around or should I stop a short distance away. I know I can cross the street in time either way. I have a friend who cleans his nails with a small pocket knife. It’s legal where I live and he’s a third degree black belt. He could do more damage and faster without the knife. It’s not a weapon to him. Should he refrain from cleaning his nails until after he got off the elevator with the woman? Maybe the women could post their bikini pictures on a facebook page that wasn’t their main page so someone else couldn’t accidentally see it while looking for someone with the same name and maybe they shouldn’t put it on a feed. There are certain things we can reasonably do and still live or lives.
“Yesterday when I logged onto Facebook, I had several pictures of college co-eds in bathing suits, who are friends on Facebook, come up on my feed.”
Dylan. Being judged is not the same as not being allowed.
I’m aware of that, but if you listen to what I am trying to get across, is that having such a judgemental environment, will discourage women from dressing how they want to to an extent where they might feel they are not allowed wear something, lest they be called a slut or blamed for any sexual assault that happens. Yes they technically have the freedom to do it if they want, but in practice it might not be so clear. I’m glad however that you are debating the semantics of my statement rather than my actual point . . .
I’m discouraged from growing a beard that dangles down to my knees or dressing up like The Tick before I go into work on Mondays. I can’t dress the way I used in high school because folks at the office wouldn’t like me showing up in fishnets and teasing my hair out like Robert Smith.
Do you have any kind of point beyond ‘women can’t do whatever they want, and that’s wrong!’. You’re just throwing in ‘sexual assault’ to gin up passions and muddy the waters.
Yes, there are certain dress codes at work, at a gala, the gym, in school, etc. You don’t wear a bikini to work, duh, just like you probably won’t wear a smarmy t-shirt. But it’s a stretch to say that you’re victimizing men when you post pictures of yourself at the beach or in something you feel is flattering–on a social and fun website intended to keep up with friends. It’s like saying you shouldn’t post pictures of yourself because your face is too ugly. Plenty of men have gotten into the ‘fitness’ craze and are posting pictures of their progress–most of which include shirtless photos. Plenty of men also post pictures of themselves shirtless at the beach, at parties, or playing sports.
@Richard Aubrey
There is a level of coercion that would rob us of a reasonable ability to choose and that would constitute not being allowed. I’m not sure that societal disapproval rises to that standard, but religious radicals were reported to have killed ‘emo” kids in Iraq. If wearing certain clothes would make a woman significantly more likely to be raped or less able to get redress, this could rise to the level of not allowed. Whether that standard is met is another thing entirely.
Dylan. I’m debating the point you made in the words you used. If you want to make a different point, use different words.
You said “allowed”. Allowed or not allowed is what happens in Saudi Arabia.
Here, a woman who thinks she doesn’t mind getting a lot of stares from guys is allowed to dress that way. A woman who doesn’t want that can dress differently.
A woman who dresses to get a lot of stares can be said to be dressing to get a lot of stares. Statement of fact. Not judgment.
If you think she shouldn’t, that’s your business. If you tell her, she can tell you to pound sand.
Women are not fragile, unless it’s tactically useful to pretend. But really, they’re not.
I knew some women in college who had what is euphemistically referred to as a “great figure”. They dressed so as to moderate the visual impact. It wasn’t because somebody told them they had to, or should. It was because, if it weren’t a matter of self-consciousness, it was a practical matter that their day would go with fewer interruptions than if they wore tank tops. Nobody had to tell them, and if somebody had, it would have been redundant.
But there was nothing about judgment and allowed.
This is like complaining your free speech rights are violated when somebody points out you’re wrong.
Interesting take on a complex issue. I can’t say that I agree with you in entirety, but I do think we have some converging opinions about the detrimental nature of notions of male sexuality in our culture. A man looking at a woman is not inherently objectifying. But, as a woman – and without sounding too conceited – a conventionally attractive one at that, I have encountered many a man who thinks that appropriate interactions with someone they are attracted to include objectification and sexual harassment. Even when I vocalize that this makes me uncomfortable, that I do not find comments about how good I look flattering, but rather find them uncomfortable and harassing, many men either don’t seem to care about my (dis)comfort, or seem to think I must be playing coy. I am not saying that this is every man, because I have met a lot of decent, wonderful men. And I’m not even saying those who tend toward the objectification of women are ‘bad’ men, either. But we learn about our sexuality and about how to treat others from our experiences, our interactions with our world, and through the all-pervasive media. The messages that we’re receiving, however, are often reinforcing behaviours and beliefs that are limiting to all people.
I think what one also has to consider is that because of the ubiquitous objectification of the female body in advertising, television, film, and just about everywhere else you look, males and females alike have learned that the female body is a commodity; that attractiveness has value. Women are often complicit in the objectification of their own bodies, and are rewarded for objectifying themselves. Male bodies are also becomingly increasingly objectified in media, and this has led to increases in body image issues in males. None of this is good for females or males, or for healthy notions of sexuality.
And finally, objectification is not in and of itself a bad or negative thing. Objectification becomes problematic when bodies are portrayed so unidimensionally that these images are internalized and impact how people relate to and treat one another.
High-5 for acknowledging men are objectified in media. I am quite insecure of my looks as an overweight male, and not being the thin n buff hunk that is so often portrayed as the best, especially hate the presumptions of lazyness.
I’m sorry people don’t respect your boundaries. I’ve always shyed away from paying compliments on beauty as I didn’t want to make women uncomfy, with my friends though I pay compliments on both their beauty and attributes (funny, intelligence, good at certain hobby etc).
From what I can tell the women are objectified mostly for beauty, men mostly for their utility/power/status. It’d be good to see some more variance in both. I am wondering what would be a good way to expand this range and give more depth to how society see’s each other?
Ditto on the compliments. I don’t give out any anymore. Women in general seemed to be so sensitized to them that they think every compliment is a come on. The problem is a lack of gentlemen out in our world. See Jasmine’s statements above. My daughter goes through the same thing all of the time. I know gentlemen is a non-PC word, but so be it. Give me something else, because it seems like we need an updated label. Labels can be handy as well as damaging.
Archy, I actually am equally concerned about the objectification of male bodies, especially given the increasing trend in media of doing so in the past couple of decades. I do think it is a lot about utility, but men are increasingly coming under pressure to live up to beauty ideals as well (inverted triangle body, chiseled chest, hairless, etc.). Humans have a tendency to compare themselves to others, and with the ubiquity of media images, this leaves a lot of people feeling a discordance between what they think they should look like and what their body genetically is made to be. I think we expand this by using multidimensional representations in media. Even mannequins in clothing stores subtly contribute to the thin ideal (because I’ve never seen an average-sized mannequin, or portly mannequin, displaying either men’s or women’s clothing. It’s not that everyone is explicitly saying “You must be thin to be attractive” but we receive the implicit messages so persistently that they are easily internalized. I think a first step in resisting this is opening the dialogue and talking about it. I’ve achieved body acceptance (and in fact, I have come to love my body unconditionally) through not only recognizing and resisting objectifying media and the thin ideal, but by being overtly aware that my value does not lie in my appearance and utterly rejecting appearance-based valuations.
I don’t think that it is bad to compliment women. I know a lot of women who really appreciate compliments about how they look. For me, I find it really uncomfortable, although it depends on who the compliment comes from. If it were my long-time partner who said “You look nice today” I wouldn’t be offended or uncomfortable. A lot of it is about context, certainly.
@Archy
“From what I can tell the women are objectified mostly for beauty, men mostly for their utility/power/status. It’d be good to see some more variance in both. I am wondering what would be a good way to expand this range and give more depth to how society see’s each other?”
I’ve been thinking about this and I think that for me when I comment on someone’s attribute it is more in the context of what they did and so the link to them gets lost. That was funny or great shot. You really hit the nail on the head or great job. I don’t generally walk up to someone and say you know you’re really funny, but a person doesn’t have to do something beautiful so it comes easier.
The other problem I think is that beauty is so associated with women’s positive attributes that focusing on something else is sometimes seen as a negative. We’ve all seen the TV trope of the guy getting fixed up and when he asks how does she look, gets the response she has a great personality. One guy in class asked a woman if he could sit next to her because she was smart and she took it as him hitting on her. She was pretty, but not the prettiest woman in class and couldn’t accept the possibility that someone could want to associate with her for her intellect even though group work highly impacts your grade in today’s grad school. Sometimes we need to change how we value ourselves.
@Jasmine
“that I do not find comments about how good I look flattering, but rather find them uncomfortable and harassing, many men either don’t seem to care about my (dis)comfort, or seem to think I must be playing coy”
The odd thing is that when I was 20 and working out, I would have found compliments on my body initially flattering. I would have only considered it harassing if she got feely or didn’t stop at a thank you. Now that I’m older, I consider them harassing, but not harassment. I should probably consider them complimentary at my age, but don’t. Recently, I had a woman, 17 years my junior; ask me if I was working out. In the past, she made me a loaf of banana bread and some meat filled pastries. I think she might have been hitting on me, but I’ve never figured out the difference in signals from when a woman is hitting in me and is just being friendly. I’ve gotten in trouble with other women in the past and just assume they’re just being nice and in this case she deserves someone in her age range anyway.
I’m pretty sure our reactions can change over time and are probably different based on circumstance. It probably feels like harassment now because the compliment is undeserved. I would probably be more uncomfortable with a guy complimenting me on my body at any age of my life, but still wouldn’t make a big deal of it unless he didn’t stop. Does that include compliments about your hair? Many guys will compliment women on a new hair style. Some will do it to be nice even if they don’t like the style. Would you feel different if a woman complimented you on your looks, someone you hadn’t seen for awhile or someone at the gym?
I think the thing with compliments is that most people have an understanding that compliments are rarely “just compliments.” If a strange guy in a coffee shop comes up to me and tells me I’m beautiful, he wants something from me. He’s not thinking to himself, “I’m a nice person so I’ll give her a compliment just to make her feel good.” If that was the case, I mean, if it was truly an altruistic gesture, he’d be giving compliments to old ladies and unattractive women just to be nice. No, he’s thinking “There’s a woman I feel attracted to in a sexual way and maybe if I give her a compliment she’ll notice me and that will ultimately lead to sex.” Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying it’s “bad” for men to want sex with an attractive woman. I’m not even saying it’s “bad” to approach women because you are sexually attracted to them and want to get to know them. But women KNOW that’s what the compliment means, so the internal reaction is often “ugh” rather than “thank you.”
“But women KNOW that’s what the compliment means, so the internal reaction is often “ugh” rather than “thank you.””
Oh please, be honest here. The initial reaction is entirely dependent on your own subjective opinion of the man making the compliment. Your reaction to a compliment is based as much on the desire for sex as you assert the initial compliment is (though I think this is a rather negative view of men as only interested in sex, and denies the idea that men, some men, might be after companionship)
Are you looking for companionship only with the women you are attracted to? Then you still have a sexual motive, even if you may not want immediate sex. Please keep in mind, I’m not criticizing anyone for having sexual needs or arguing men shouldn’t be motivated to go after attractive women. Only pointing out a fact that most men use compliments in a self interested way.
Ugh is a criticism, so your damn right your making a criticism of men having sexual needs.
“Only pointing out a fact that most men use compliments in a self interested way.”
And here we have a standard example of feminist practice. Take an action common to both genders, and if it’s a negative action, make it into a man only thing and criticize men for taking that action.
Are you suggesting women don’t also compliment for self interest? Or did you just specify only men for some other reason (despite the post you just replied to calling you out on this very practice by pointing out women’s reactions are equally based on the reasons for men taking the action in the first place), perhaps you feel women compliment others altruistically, and never have an ulterior motive, whereas men never compliment altruistically. FYI, I compliment many people, not just people I find attractive. But your implications in your last few posts (including to Archy bellow…”Are you giving compliments to everyone equally or just attractive women?”) suggest you think men ONLY compliment women they find attractive… I compliment friends, coworkers, boss’s. I compliment strangers I just met but hope to establish friendships with and any number of people. perhaps many of those compliments are in self interest, but your implications that they are all for sex is offensive ad misandric, especially so because you limit the acknowledgment to men alone, and don’t acknowledge women’s complicity in this, even when I point it out to you.
You seem very sensitive about this for some reason. Of course, you are free to compliment women all you like. Compliment anyone and everyone! I don’t care, personally. I’m not offended if a man compliments me, I’m just not impressed either. Some women (me included, at times) will think to themselves, “ugh.” That’s just a fact. Do you want to understand why, or just complain that women’s responses to compliments are “wrong”? You aren’t going to change women by complaining any more than women can change men by complaining.
I have a feeling if I’d said that women love love love compliments, you’d have turned that around too as an example of something negative.
By accusing me of being sensitive about this for some reason, you are deflecting. You are attempting to inject an irrational emotional state onto me in order to discredit my position. I’ll ask you not to use such underhanded tactics with me.
” Some women (me included, at times) will think to themselves, “ugh.” ”
Oh, I don’t disagree with this, except this isn’t what you said earlier. But you’ve added “some” in front of women and changed “often” to “at times”… This is different from your initial assertion, and far closer to my own, that how a woman chooses to take a compliment is as subjective as a man’s reason for giving one.
“You aren’t going to change women by complaining”
Oh, please, show me where I have made a complaint about women? My complaints have all been about how you (specifically) are portraying women = good, men = bad. Are you going to pretend that my criticizing you specifically is a criticism of all women? I don’t think you’re that vain, but…
You are totally being irrational. It’s not an accusation on her part – it’s a fact. I’m assuming that the notion that some men (not all) use compliments as a way to attempt to begin a sexual relationship offends your personal experience. She is in no way calling all men bad. I notice that men who have the least luck with women are the fastest to complain when a woman states that she may not like it when a man approaches her, compliments her, or makes sexual advances towards her. Flattery is a form of manipulation. A man (or woman!) may think that if he (or she!) compliments a sexual interest, that individual will be more likely to see him in a positive light.. and if the man is seen in a positive light, he is more likely to increase the number of positive interactions with that person. Not everyone uses it, but it is silly to complain when someone recognizes it. Not every compliment has an ulterior motive, but context will often be a key indicator of that. The idea that some men do indeed try to flatter their way into a girl’s pants is a fact of life.. and women who do not want to be flattered into sex are cautious. Nothing wrong with that.
You want to start up a 4 month old post, and worst, you begin it with a personal attack (not to mention one clearly designed to hinder discussion), calling me irrational? What’s the point of this?
And to be honest, it’s probably a good thing you had no intention of having a reasonable debate, because I haven’t got a clue what part of my post you’re objecting to or disagreeing with. Seems you simply found someone who got the last word in against a feminist and felt the need to lecture. Whatever.
Some of my most valued companion/friendships are with women twice my age age, who are married and even have kids my age. Compliments can have an ulterior motive but be careful on how you judge them since you can get the wrong impression from someone quite easily.
For quite a while I had beautiful women bully n tease me, should I judge all attention from beautiful women as negative though? Once I started to get rid of that judgment I had of them I realized some were actually quite nice, sweet, decent people and became friends with some. People are individuals, there are similarities with many men n women but we can’t possibly know for certain their intentions from a simple compliment, you may end up keeping yourself from a very good friendship if you only see it in a negative way.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen someone sad and wanted to compliment them just to get them to smile, I LOVE smiles, I LOVE making people feel better, but I usually don’t due to shyness and wondering if they’d think I was just after something, whether it be a woman thinking I just want to have sex with her, or a guy thinking the same…
“There’s a woman I feel attracted to in a sexual way and maybe if I give her a compliment she’ll notice me and that will ultimately lead to sex.”
Well, no, I’ve never thought that. I’ve thought if I compliment her she might smile, feel better about the day and it might be that small gesture which can turn a shit day into a good one, OR I could get someone like you who I guess would go UGH and you’d never understand my intention.
If you mean acting friendly might lead to sex, then sure, it might lead to a great friendship without sex, might lead to nothing at all. Why do you judge the man so negatively? You’re assuming the compliments are always just a means to get sex, but what of those people that just want people happier in the world? I love being around happier people, if complimenting can help make everyone smile more the we’d all benefit. I HATE seeing people sad, depressed, annoyed, angry, I feel bad for them and it also makes me feel those things, but seeing a smile just lights my day up and I hope it does the same for others. But with people like you out there, I’m not sure I want to try random compliments because some will assume them wrong and make them feel uncomfy (the opposite of what I want to achieve).
We all need to stop mind-reading and just let life play itself out, you go seeking negativity and you will end up negative. I do my best to get rid of this in myself, I hope everyone tries it as well.
Are you giving compliments to everyone equally or just attractive women? If you give compliments to everyone just to make people happy, then what I said earlier doesn’t apply to you and I stand corrected. But if the people you want to “make happy” are all women you are attracted to, then, yes, I think you have an ulterior motive. Again, I’m not saying that’s bad, I’m just saying that’s why many women are suspicious of compliments.
But it does apply to him, because women such as yourself don’t know his motives and actions and will give the same misandric reaction regardless. There is nothing about his consistancy or not in who he gives compliments to that will change your opinion of someone you don’t know complimenting you, so yes, your accusations very much apply to him, as it would any other stranger.
Secondly, ” I’m not saying that’s bad” Actually, you are. You said that ulterior motive is sex, not companionship, not friendship, just sex. And while this may be true for some, you paint the entire male gender in the negative sex fiend brush. Furthermore, by stating the response will always be “ugh”, you are painting the action that incured it as a negative.
You seem to be very good at reading my mind and telling me exactly what I’m really thinking. Extraordinary!
I think it’s backlash to the problem that it’s ok to judge men as just wanting sex and if he compliments, it’s always for sex. I’ve had women tell me how men only want sex and it’s been annoying to hear especially since I want more than just sex, and I don’t want sex with every woman. Even desiring it a lot doesn’t mean that’s all a man wants so it can get pretty annoying to always hear it and hear how paying a compliment seems to be seen negatively.
It would be better if we could all hold off on judgments more, but I do wonder if it’s HOW they compliment as well, the unspoken messages. Just rocking up to a beautiful woman at a bar and saying you’re beautiful could be seen as interested for sex, saying sexy would be judged even more so for that reason.
“I think it’s backlash to the problem that it’s ok to judge men as just wanting sex and if he compliments, it’s always for sex. ”
Exactly, it seems rather hypocritical that she should take offence to my analyzing her while she feels entirely justified in doing the reverse… to all men… based on just a compliment, far less than I had to go on. Yet my analyzing just her based on her assertions of men’s motives is somehow unacceptable, but her analysis of all men, based just on the concept of giving a compliment is perfectly reasonable.
“You seem to be very good at reading my mind and telling me exactly what I’m really thinking. Extraordinary!”
Ironic considering “reading minds” is basically what you’re claiming to do. How else would you know that a compliment carries an ulterior motive? (Your “ugh” reaction is an implicit assumption that the compliment only comes as a prelude to sexual advance)
My compliments fly around to anyone n everyone I feel comfortable giving them to, sometimes beautiful women, sometimes women who aren’t’ so beautiful, sometimes beautiful men, sometimes men who aren’t so beautiful. Extremely beautiful women actually make me quite shy (the leftover side effect of bullying from the pretty crowd in school) so I’m probably less likely to compliment them. But with friends who are very beautiful I still like to know about their mind, one of my friends draws and does a great job and I let her know that, I also let her know about her being a nice and genuine person.
Another beautiful friend told me how people only saw her for her looks and that really made me sad for her cuz the attribute I valued her most for was our great conversations, I could talk for hours with her and it was fun, we’d always laugh. She would tell me of her insecurities regarding her personality but I did my best to reassure her she wasn’t how she said, I told her the positives (that I truly believed, not just telling her bullshit to make her smile). It really showed me how people can treat you differently because of your looks or some silly trait, they can be so occupied by beauty for instance that they don’t see the great friend, the caring heart, the sweet person beneath.
I have male and female friends that are insecure in various areas, one wasn’t too great at academics but was pretty damn awesome at construction, engineering, etc. He can build, he is hands on yet because he didn’t do too well on English n other subjects he felt stupid when clearly he is quite intelligent and skilled, just in different areas and I told him that. At our school we had a major focus on academic achievement as the sign of intelligence, but those who did well in academics could easily be lost inside a machine shop compared to him.
I think everyone needs to give more compliments, I can’t tell you how amazing it felt when one of my first studio photographs I took was met with a lot of compliments, my confidence really rose quite a lot. It takes about 5 seconds to say or write a nice compliment, but the effects can last much longer and make a real difference to someones life. So many of us just want to feel valued…
@ woman’s view
I’m pretty sure that when I was working out the women were interested in sex. I was practicing tae kwon do in a park once and was approached by three women. One suggested that I must have a strong lower body, which wouldn’t have been problematic, but she and one of her friends were each fondling one if my arms. I don’t want you to get the wrong impression. I was wearing a tae kwon do jacket at the time and they were tracing/feeling the tigers stitched on the sleeves. I wasn’t afraid even though there were three. I probably would have taken it as complimentary, but the touching was creepy. I think I have a control issue when it comes to overly aggressive women, but I never felt “ugh” just because a woman wanted to have sex with me and I didn’t particularly want to have sex with her.
That does make me wonder about something. When I’m not sexually interested in a woman,
I don’t spend much time considering it. Do women determine a guy’s sexual attractiveness by imagining how sex with him would be? If I did that, I’d probably have the “ugh” response too.
I’ve been on the other side of the equation also where I’ve had women complain that I didn’t comment on their new hairdo and just assumed that I was ignoring it because I thought it was bad. Sometimes I just can’t win.
@John Anderson, women can certainly be creepy and annoying just as easily as men. I think everyone should be careful about complimenting other people’s physical appearance; it can easily be offensive or be taken the wrong way.
This looks to me like what you’re trying to say is that compliments are some creepy, annoying things that should be avoided in order to not offend people… Is this where feminism and political correctness is taking us?
edit – should be
“…and women telling women careful because of the existence of that small %…..”
should be
“…and telling women careful because of the existence of that small %…..”
Reading this I couldn’t help but think of the “Virgin/Whore Dichotomy” which is frequently brought up in feminist discussions about female sexuality. The Whore is only good for her sexuality, and thus is celebrated by dudes looking to get laid and absolutely no one else. The Virgin (or Madonna) is good for everything feminine except sex. It’s better for a woman to be the virgin of course, but in the real world most women have to temporarily become whores for sex.
So if a man sexualizes a woman in anyway there is going to be the fear that she’ll be made into a whore, which traditionally are heavily degraded. Not necessarily a literal whore, but still a woman only good for her sexuality who’s inferior to a “proper” woman. Since proper women aren’t really sexual.
Either way, I agree that the idea that “to sexualize a woman is to degrade her” is clearly wrong and messed up.
Given some of the comments in:
http://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/newsflash-bigger-boobs-boost-womens-confidence/
I’d have to say many who call themselves feminists actually do think acknowledging a woman is attractive (not even through verbal communication) is objectification. It’s almost to suggest it’s impossible to see a woman as physically desirable without somehow striping away everything else about her. To many, they think a man should feel a woman can be physically desirable (and thus, an object), or else a personality without physical form worth noting, the idea a man can see a woman as both physically desirable AND a whole person seems to stymie them.
I think a lot of women have just had too many bad experiences with men who see them as a collection of physical parts with no mind or soul. Men have bad experiences with women and it colors their views as well. Hence, a lot of angry comments on websites like this one.
I agree with that on colouring our view, took quite a while for me to expand my view with women after some negative experiences in highschool (a very influential time period). As I said in my other comment, my quite gorgeous friend only had men interested in her for her looks/body and it was sad because her personality is great.
We did an exercise concerning identity in grad class. A third of the class was asked to write ten things that they would associate with the ideal woman, a third ten things that they would associate with the ideal man and the last third 10 thing that they would associate with the ideal person. When we were done, the teacher told us to write our answers on the board. We crossed off the duplicates and wrote the number of responses next to what was left. Not only were the top ten items different for each, but the rankings weren’t the same. Some items weren’t listed under all three headings. The thing that was interesting was that the one comment, yum, which was associated with sexual desire, was written by a woman under the ideal man section. I don’t know if men were uncomfortable writing that down or if it doesn’t really matter that much. There was no direction set so some people wrote about a mate and others just about a friend so that could be a difference also. There are also a lot more women in class than men so that probably affects the outcome also, but the purpose of the exercise was to show how society values men and women differently. Some people may have suspected that the ideal man and ideal person list would be the same, but they weren’t.
I had to write about the ideal woman. Kind and generous were the first two things that came to mind. Intelligent and sociable were high on the list. Beauty would be more important to me in a mate than a friend, but even more important in a one night stand than in a mate. When you look at a picture in a magazine or a computer screen, that’s all you know. Sometimes we make assumptions based in what we see. A policeman is brave. A man in a suit is educated. When you see a woman in a bikini, the only thing you know is how she looks and there is sometimes nothing else to gather unless you have some way of contacting her like you saw the picture on her Facebook page. Is it still objectification if you can’t get any more info? Is it objectification if I try to get more info, but get cut off because she assumes that I want to sleep with her and she doesn’t want to sleep with me? What if I really did want to sleep with her, but was open to the possibility of a long term or even platonic relationship?
Maybe women react that way because they feel unsafe and are afraid to lead a guy on. Some women already won’t accept help from men because they are afraid. Just look at Joanna’s post on the quiet feminist revolution. Are some women now accusing men of objectifyinbg them because their fear doesn’t allow a man a chance to do anything else?
Often times I see pages like yahoo and AOL post pictures of attractive female celebrities or models. I very often see male comments below of the following nature: “fap fap fap” and “i’d like to motorboat them titties”, “I’d like to insert _ into _” or “I’d do XYZ to her all night long” or “I’d like to ream her” and other comments like that. Does that sound like “I would like to engage in mutually pleasurable sex with her” to you? It doesn’t to me. But that’s what A LOT of men seem to think when they seem pictures of attractive females. So is it any wonder why male sexuality and female objectification go hand-in-hand? Until men can appreciate female attractiveness in perhaps a more civilized manner, it will continue to be demonized.
“Does that sound like “I would like to engage in mutually pleasurable sex with her” to you? It doesn’t to me. But that’s what A LOT of men seem to think when they seem pictures of attractive females. So is it any wonder why male sexuality and female objectification go hand-in-hand? Until men can appreciate female attractiveness in perhaps a more civilized manner, it will continue to be demonized.”
And I see plenty of comments crass like that which indicate a desire to give HER pleasure AND him. Whilst the comments are of a crass nature there are A LOT which do indicate a desire for mutual sex, maybe you are reading something into their comments based on a judgment of them because of their crass nature? How about we stop assuming these men, women, whoever makes the crass comments to simply want 1 way sex and realize that many are probably just horny, lonely and trying to give a compliment in the way they feel might work (which usually doesn’t). I’m sure countless men assume that telling a woman how sexy they are and reinforcing it by saying how much they’d like to have sex with them assume it’s just proving how sexy that woman is.
If anything most of them simply need to learn better ways to pay a compliment but please don’t read more into what is there, they may be crass but I’m sure many are interested in giving the woman a lot of pleasure too.
I think that if we (society) are going to try to be more open-minded to men’s comments, men also have to learn to be more sensitive to WHAT THEY ARE ACTUALLY SAYING. Attempting to interpret men’s comments for anything beyond what they are actually saying is not respecting their voice. We *should* be taking everything a man says at face value – anything less is another crime all in itself. We need to teach men to voice their delight in female appearance in such a way that it isn’t demonized.
But what you are doing is being insensitive to what THEY ARE ACTUALLY SAYING. I’ve thought to myself I would fuck the legs off that woman, I’d do this n that to her but I haven’t posted that as a comment nor is it all I wanted. Every intention was to have mutual fun sex where both parties (or more parties) are to feel pleasure. But what you are doing is judging these comments and seeing the face value as being negative when the reality is they aren’t all negative, you assume them to be all about his pleasure and that my friend is the biggest crime of all. All humans need to be sensitive to both how they speak and how they interpret others speech, you wouldn’t believe how many times I’ve seen a woman misunderstand massively what a man has said n vice versa, plenty of guys who may be lacking on sophistication but what they are actually saying is pretty mundane, hell even a bit sweet but some are so quick to judge them negatively and demonize them for it.
Maybe people need to learn how to take a compliment, whatever form it comes in?
you clearly choose not to get what i say. that’s fine.
@ Gerry
“But that’s what A LOT of men seem to think when they seem pictures of attractive females.”
A person’s thoughts, feelings, and emotions tend to have legitimacy. I’m not sure how I would categorize the comments because once something is verbalized it has consequence. I don’t feel that wanting sex is not necessarily a bad thing nor does all sex need to be mutually pleasurable. I’m not particularly concerned if a sex worker doesn’t enjoy her job nor does everyone in a committed relationship always have sex that they want. Many times they compromise on sex so that both people are mostly satisfied with the arrangement. I don’t even equate selfish sex with being necessarily wrong in a moral sense. As long as none of those comments implied forced sex, it’s not that big a deal.
On the other hand, I could imagine her discomfort if she viewed those comments and people should treat others in a respectful manner. Sex should be a mutually pleasurable experience. People should be kind and thoughtful of others, but just as men are responsible for their actions and choices so are women. If a man gives a woman a compliment, he is responsible for his action, but the woman is responsible for the way she reacts to it.
As a generally friendly female, I would *like* to be more open to compliments from men about my appearance, as long as they are not leering or inappropriately suggestive. The problem is that so many compliments have been associated with crude hand gestures, double entendres, leering, and uncomfortable non-verbal cues, that it is very hard to receive a compliment from a man without wondering, “is he going to go farther? am i in danger?”. if you want a safe litmus test for giving compliments to a woman, how about: would you say this compliment in this tone in front of a colleague/family member? If it is too suggestive that you wouldn’t be able to say it in front of someone important to you, then your remark (or the way you are saying it) are probably off-colour and inappropriate to give to a woman stranger.