I am, Feminist Jesus help me, going to commit an analogy that compares dating to economics here. I’m so sorry. I’ll say an Our bell hooks and three Hail Audre Lordes in repentance.
Imagine that you are a sentient curtain at Sears. (This metaphor may have been born of me spending way too much time restocking curtains at my new job at Sears.) All the people that might date you are potential buyers.
If a person wants to buy a purple throw rug, and doesn’t want to buy a curtain, they are not going to buy you. Even if you are a very nice shade of purple. They may agree that you are a lovely shade of purple! They just want other qualities in their throw rug, such as not scrunching up when you step on it. It doesn’t mean that they’re lying about liking purple. (This holds true even if they end up buying a blue throw rug instead. Maybe other traits of the throw rug were more important to them than the color. Or maybe they made a mistake and would actually prefer curtains to the throw rug. Or maybe they are lying and actually hate purple, which brings up the question of why you want to be their curtain then.)
People not wanting to buy you is not a judgment on your excellence as a curtain. It may be you have flaws that keep you from being purchased, such as being full of holes. But there might be other traits of yours that are unpopular but not wrong– maybe your pattern doesn’t match anyone’s color scheme. Your pattern is perfectly beautiful, it’s just that the people shopping for curtains don’t want it. Or maybe you’re hiding in the back of the shelf and people who would really like to buy you don’t know you exist. Or maybe your right buyer is stuck in traffic and hasn’t come along yet. (Of course, none of this means you have to keep searching for a buyer if you don’t want to. It’s perfectly okay to give up if the buyer-search is taking more out of you than you’re getting back, and to be sad that no one wants to buy you despite giving up.)
And the nice thing about buyers is that you really only need one. (Maybe more, if you want to be shared between a couple people or borrowed occasionally, but even then the number of people who can use the same curtain is somewhat limited.) It doesn’t matter if your pattern doesn’t match anyone’s color scheme: if you find the one person who happens to have a room that you’d be perfect for, they can buy you.
Photo credit– je@n/Flickr. A sign that says “SEX in progress.”
Has anyone tried putting a request for accurate rejections into their dating profile? If so, what was the result?
it’s easy for people to attack others as being dishonest about what they want, when a lot of the time, people tell half lies in order to spare others’ feelings. Both men and women do this. If forced to say exactly why they are rejecting someone, most people don’t want to say it’s because they find you unattractive, they can tell you’re desperate, or you don’t seem to be smart enough to keep them interested. Some “truths” are easier to say than others.. if the reason is something like: you don’t follow the same religion as me, or you’re not… Read more »
I was at a lecture the other day, by an alpinist climber who at least in the climbing community is pretty well known all over the world for his abilities and for pushing the limits of human endurance.
But when asked about fear, and ever being afraid, hanging on a shard of ice all alone and days from any form of rescue, he retorted “My biggest fear is the fear of not being deserved of love.”
There is always the possibility that this is part of a larger break in social institutions. We have Presidents that are almost always elected by razor-thin margins. Nearly half the electorate stays home, because they don’t think (and not without some cause) that the results will impact their life. We have towns that barely have any claim to that title, with no real sense of shared history or community. We have police that few trust (and often, for good reason), and we have families that are flat-out broken. There is no trusted authority in much of anything anymore. Back in… Read more »
I don’t understand why people have avowedly platonic friendships with people they’re romantically interested in. If you want a romantic relationship you’re wasting your time with the avowedly platonic friendship, and if they reject the possibility of a romantic relationship with you then unless you have exceptional toughness and compartmentalizing abilities you probably shouldn’t continue the friendship, just to save yourself the pain.
Back on topic, I think Nice Guy resentment really comes from the fact that they eventually realize they’ve been sold a lie their whole life: what their friends, mothers, and society as a whole told them would get them laid actually doesn’t. Resentful Nice Guys either haven’t quite got to this realization yet or are still in the “denial” stage.
Haha, yeah. It’s basically coming to the conclusion that everything women have said to us in terms of “how to get women” is a total nonsense lie.
OK. Here’s the deal. A list of “Things that can help you out with women-in-general” is just that–a GENERAL list. Women, being individuals, want different things out of relationships, and also generally want additional qualities that they don’t think to tell you off the bat. For example, when I have a boyfriend, I like to go out to restaurants or movies with him. Therefore, while I don’t care about his exact income, I need my boyfriend to have a job of some kind, so that I’m not the only person paying all the time. I’m a modern woman, and I… Read more »
Pretty spot on.
My gripe is not so much with people omitting important factors in a potential mate’s “profile”, so much as straight out contradicting their own behaviour.
(i.e. saying that “I don’t like people who say or do X”, while repeatedly hooking up with different people who do nothing much than X. 😉 )
*shrugs* Some individuals are very “self-blind.” They don’t bother to examine their behavior or standards in order to improve themselves. I was extremely self-blind as a teenager, and as a result I was miserable. I’m a wee bit better now, but this is the sort of thing one is never perfect at.
There’s also the possibility that one trait was important enough to override a previous “don’t.” People aren’t always rational in love, after all. 🙂
“If a particular woman turns you down for whatever reason, then that particular woman was not a good match for you. Find someone else and move on” “…try to find a woman who will make YOU happy.” I really think you’re oversimplifying this. It’s not that I don’t agree to an extent but you’re making this sound much easier than it is. I don’t think you understand how difficult for some of us to actually get a date. Sometimes that alone feels like a success. It’s as easy for us as it is for you but with the added burden… Read more »
I agree with you CmE. I have said before that PUA stuff is a mixture of good and bad but I think they are absolutely correct when they counsel men not to get into plantonic relationships with women hoping for something sexual. You only have a limited amount of time in your life and if finding a sexual relationship is a priority, you need to make your romantic/sexual interests known to her right away. If she’s not interested, move on to the next person. Don’t agree to just hang around with a woman and be her friend, make it clear… Read more »
This, so much. There’s a huge difference between “I was friends with her for a long time, then found myself becoming sexually attracted to her,” and “I basically started hanging out with her and acting like her friend so I could get in her pants.”
This, so much.
So why is it that (almost) every time a guy comments on acting according to your first example, but failing to have his awakening romantic/sexual attraction reciprocated, he gets accused of deliberately acting according to your second example?
(P.S. Rethorical question. I don’t expect you to sit on every answer.)
I’d like to know the same. I explained the first example and what did CmE say? That that was an alien (as in different or unexpected) thought process.
I’m starting to wonder if the first excample (that L mentions) is being ignored in favor of the second as the exaplanation for why guys find themselves in that position.
There is a difference between (a) becoming friends with a woman, then after some time of being her friend, trying to make it sexual, and (b) making it clear from the beginning that you are not just hanging out, you are going on a date. I can tell you from my own life experience that I have known a lot of men in both category (a) and (b). The men who get the most “action” are the men in category (b). They generally don’t have female “friends.” They don’t pal around with women, they go on dates with women. I’m… Read more »
@Sarah Radford: There is a difference between (a) becoming friends with a woman, then after some time of being her friend, trying to make it sexual, and (b) making it clear from the beginning that you are not just hanging out, you are going on a date. Yes it is, I totally agree on that! But that is not what the question was about. As The_L clearly pointed out in an earlier post, not all people (men or women or anything in between or arbitrary) fall in love at first sight. And I believe it’s pretty difficult to be clear… Read more »
I’m not sure if your part A is “I became attracted to her after we’d been friends for a while,” or is a separate, third category. It may very well be one–people are complicated. 😛
I’ve seen men do both, and sometimes it can be hard to tell the two cases apart. I do think that a young man who’s been turned down by a friend needs to keep his difference from her (or him, if we’re talking about a gay man) for a while, if only to avoid further emotional turmoil on both their parts. There is also a very real human tendency to assume the worst about other people. Some folks find this tendency easier to overcome than others. You’ll notice that quite a lot of religions basically have dozens of rules focused… Read more »
I have platonic friendships with people I have been romantically interested in, and I don’t find it difficult at all. The fact is that the qualities that made me want to have a relationship with them also mean they are people I want to spend time with generally. I don’t actually understand people who feel differently as a blanket rule.
There’s some joke here about whether the carpet matches the curtains, but I can’t quite figure out how to make it work…. : – )
It’s the one about them closing the curtains so that the neighbours not being able to see you treated like a door mat. … or is that watching your best friend being treated like a door mat in front of you as you just hang about ! P^)
Boy Oh Boy! – The more I read of how people react as males to furnishings and choices the more I become convinced that this Ozy post is nothing more but a clear manifestation of The Great Agenda. The Great Agenda is of course the Great Feminist Plan to control the Universe and to prove that all women and gay man are good at furnishing, and you can’t take a straight guy shopping and end up co-ordinated. I also have to say from the point of being an espionage expert and as a Uber Straight Pouf who gets treated as… Read more »
In practice, the analogy is more like: Curtain: What do consumers want? I can’t seem to get bought! Typical consumer: Well, consumers like fabric! Curtain: Well…ok. Thought I already was kinda fabricy, but ok, fabric, hearing you loud and clear! *time passes* Curtain, increasingly frustrated: Ok, what’s the deal here? I asked what consumers liked, I was told ‘fabric’. I’ve really tried to ask for advice and to listen, and I tried to be more fabricy, but I’ve still not been bought? Maybe the customer isn’t always right a- Typical consumer: Ermahgerd, you are such an entitled ‘Fabric’ curtain ™!… Read more »
Amen to that.
Curtain: So tell me, honestly, why won’t you buy me?
Consumer: Honestly? You shed these weird polyester fibers that give me hives, and I really like that other curtain better because it’s a pretty shade of purple.
Curtain: Bitch.
But what if a woman HONESTLY can’t say what it is that she wants. I don’t have a preference for race, hair color, level of jerk-itude, college education, wealth, weight, body shape, etc–not even gender. Sometimes it’s there with someone, sometimes it’s not. Sometimes chemistry and a bond develop, sometimes that don’t. Sometimes it’s strong, sometimes it’s not. Sometimes I find that person nice, sometimes I don’t. The only thing I can truly put my finger on is age. Actually, there are some personality traits that I could put my finger on–but they are a matter of compatibility. Other women… Read more »
Tell them you don’t feel the spark. For the gym guy you can maybe say you’re not attracted to big strong men but there are plenty who are. No one can fault you for not liking big muscles. This is why kids need to be taught of individuals and not universal beauty.
@Aya:
But what if a woman HONESTLY can’t say what it is that she wants.
I don’t even think that’s an “IF”… 😉
I think that most people have it much easier to talk down on things (or people) they don’t like, than to ‘fess up on things/qualities/people they DO like.
(Which brings us back to the topic of all these articles that are a dime a dozen telling us men what NOT to do to stir an interest in women, compared to the rare useful ones actually telling us what we can *do*!)
“For example, if I said, “I don’t like you in that way because you go to the gym too much.” I wouldn’t want the guy to stop going to the gym. That’s his thing and a lot of other women find that incredibly attractive.” To me, if that’s actually the reason you’re not attracted to him, that’s what you should say. Honestly, (I think) most men know that women are individuals, and that what works for one woman doesn’t necessarily work for another, and if you’re assuming that he’ll act on your stated opinion as though it were a female… Read more »
“Feedback” really amounts to advice, and in this case I think the old saying, “wise men don’t need it and fools won’t heed it” applies.
Reasonable people know why they’re not succeeding socially. They may not like the things they know, but they know. People clamoring for answers are often ignoring answers in their search.
Whether or not a person is reasonable is a matter of learning methodology. Wisdom is gained, and virtually always includes advice incorporated from others. Foolishness need not be permanent. You can be a reasonable person and still have bad information and/or blind spots. Most people, reasonable or not, have blind spots when it comes to themselves. Also, you can be a reasonable person and have a mental or social disability. Yes, feedback does amount to advice, and I’d challenge that old saying by simply asking how the wise man became wise in the first place. In the modern world nobody… Read more »
I qualified my comment with “in this case” for a reason. In this case, meaning challenges men face dating or forming relationships, the answer to the question “what do women want?” is that there is no one answer. The things that are frequently important to women and which are within men’s control, like basic hygiene, fitness, social skills, self sufficiency, and being a decent human being aren’t all that mysterious, are they? If a man lacks any of those qualities, he already knows that obtaining them can’t hurt him socially. If not, he’s beyond simple advice. Those things also help… Read more »
There’s a reason I didn’t phrase this as regarding a question of “what women want” and it’s the same reason for my clarification regarding my use of the word “attractive”. While it may well be true that for every woman who thinks a guy isn’t working out enough there’s one who thinks he’s working out too much, that doesn’t necessarily hold amongst the women he’s attracted to. This isn’t about becoming more attractive in some abstract sense to every woman, this is about becoming more attractive to those women whom this particular man finds attractive himself, and there way well… Read more »
“If a reasonable guy hears “You go to the gym too much for me to be attracted to you” from one woman, he’ll attribute it to a personal preference on your part. If he hears it from a dozen women though, he’ll start considering that maybe he should stop going to the gym so much.” or he could work out where or how he could meet the kind of women who would be attracted to that. If going to the gym everyday is important to someone and makes them happy is giving it up really going to make them more… Read more »
It’s odd to think of myself as purple curtains, however the analogy does help illustrate that whether you’re looking for house textiles or human beings different people have different needs and so there’s a long list of possible reasons why they’re looking at one item/person and not another. In the same way there’s a long list of reasons why someone you’re attracted to might be more compatible and/or attracted to some third party than yourself. Many people do seem to believe in the absolute value model of dating. Certain people have a high value, and they date other people of… Read more »
This, so much. I became a much happier person when I started dating people who were compatible with me, instead of settling for “well, he doesn’t have anything else in common with me, but he acts nice and has a cute smile!!”
Would you be just as accepting of a 40-year old man who said that big boobs, youth and a thin waist is an absolute necessity for compatibility?
Well, what do you mean by “accepting”? Sure, I can accept that that’s what he wants in a woman, no problem. I can also accept that his criteria would exclude me, since I’m older than he is, and don’t have the thin waist of my youth. I don’t expect to appeal to every man out there, and I’m fine with that. However, I may still think he’s an idiot to consider those conditions to trump other conditions, and may also think that he’s unnecessarily limiting his options for future happiness by so filtering his pool of acceptable women, but really….that’s… Read more »
I have no idea what demands you’re talking about. I don’t want ALL men to be My Ideal Mate, because then we wouldn’t have lots of different men in the world, and life would be boring. I’d much rather find someone who already meets my criteria and date him, than pick Mr. Randomguy off the street and try to force him into my Mr. Right mold. Generally speaking, each (monogamous) person wants to find ONE person, of the desired sex, with the desired traits. Some of us find people like that fairly early on. Some of us find The One… Read more »
By the way, I’ve dated a man who was unemployed, overweight, and poor. None of those factors were ever the deal-breaker; this particular individual happened to have a personality that didn’t mesh well with mine at all.
Yeah, I also felt like this missed the point a little. So, there are definitely a number of attitudes you might hear from self-proclaimed nice guys which suck. Attitudes like “female friendship is worthless,” or “people I’m nice to owe me sex.” But I think there’s also a legitimate complaint buried in “women don’t want nice guys,” and it’s maybe not what you think. Let’s say I ask out three women I know, and they all reply with “no, sorry, but you’re a really nice guy, you just need to find the right girl.” They then proceed to date other… Read more »
I’d prefer a girl to tell me straight, we’re not all attracted to everyone and we just don’t have that jazz. I’m just not attracted to you in that way is a better thing to say than “You’re such a niceee guyyy”.
Agreed 100%. I think a big part of the problem stems from the fact that people, on both sides, see dating/flirting/etc as a value market. That is, if you’re “good enough” you will get this girl (or guy, as is less often the case). If she isn’t interested in you, it means you failed somehow – you weren’t good enough for her. Its really ridiculous when you think about it. Its like saying your house key just isn’t good enough to unlock someone elses door or to start your car. Attraction is about compatibility. The other thing that frustrates me… Read more »
drew: Standing ovation. When talking about dating, people seem to completely forget about chemistry and connection. I wish we could stress that more. Some people mesh, some don’t. As you said, “attraction is about compatibility.” On the other hand, women are raised to not hurt feelings, to be sensitive. Make the blow hurt as little as possible. Keep that in mind. That might be why some women say “you’re such a nice guy.” Mediahound: maybe for some people attraction isn’t about compatibility. There’s no universal. But goddamn, is it for me. Chemistry and connection trump EVERYTHING.
Aya, you use another code word that means something different for men and women – “chemistry.” To men, “chemistry” tends to mean, “we have similar interests and have a fun time together.” A lot of men, they have “chemistry” with their female friends, but they’ve not pursued it for one reason or another. To women, as far as a lot of men can tell, “chemistry” means, “you have that something-something that makes my panties wet.” There’s not necessarily anything wrong with that, of course. But it’s a strong source of miscommunication, and it’s something that we as a society continually… Read more »
Wow. I … always sort of assumed everyone knew that “chemistry” was a polite word for “boners.”
NOT in the dictionaries I’ve been using! P^)
To women, as far as a lot of men can tell, “chemistry” means, “you have that something-something that makes my panties wet.” To some extent, that’s true. But it’s not the whole story. It’s also about having that something-something that makes you think about them all the time, that makes you feel warm inside, that makes you feel like you can both talk to them when you need to, but also be silent and comfortable together, that makes you smile when you see them, that allows you to fight but then make up, that makes you feel safe but excited… Read more »
To add: Keep in mind, what does what I said above for one woman will not do it for another. There’s no universal that will make the factors all fit together or that that guarantee chemistry. Men seem to be more likely to say “I want a girl of this race, with these sized breasts, of this level of geekiness, with these interests, and who enjoys these things.” I can’t do that. Chemistry comes when it comes. The sexual part is very important, but there’s more to it.
So, if you were to read me a poem that you wrote and I hated it, should I give you a line by line critique of what I don’t like about it, or just say that it’s “interesting” ? It would depend on how well we know each other, wouldn’t it? If we were best friends, I would tactfully give you the critique. If we had just met or were casual acquaintances, I’d be more likely to go with the “interesting” comment. I’m not sure why it is that social conventions and little white lies are considered fine in most… Read more »
@Vicky…
There is such a thing as being polite and decent. There is such a thing as constructive critique.
Telling little white lies is not considered fine by me. What we should exercise is simple decency and manners.
Why would you want to tell little white lies in the context of dating anyway? Why not just tell the damn truth? Is it OK for guys to lie their asses off to women just to get laid? According to your logic, I presume so.
@drew… Yes, drew you make some good and valid points. I am a pretty blunt and to the point guy. I prefer similar people. However, I have to maturity to know that most people are not like me. So, I cannot expect as much. It would be most helpful if women would just start being honest with men on why they are rejecting them. All it does to a lot of men is foster resentment. Also, the use of “nice guy” is a dirty word for many men (I will speak for myself). It is code used by many women… Read more »
I think it would also help if men weren’t conditioned to take it as a personal judgement against them when they get turned down. In fact, when you really think about it, no one person needs to justify not being attracted to another person. It would be ridiculous for me to sit you down and make you look at or talk to some arbitrary number of women and demand that you have good reason for not being attracted to the ones you don’t feel attracted to. If men weren’t trained to judge themselves based on their ability to attract women,… Read more »
Why do men take it as a personal judgment when they’re turned down? Because ALL of us, men and women, are getting the message every day from society, media, and especially pop health and pop psychology, about how vitally important relationships are. Because we’re being told, constantly, that without relationships we will not only be lonely; we’ll be sicker, may die younger, are more prone to cardiovascular disease, more prone to poverty, less employable, more likely to have our character called into question, more likely to be listened to and taken seriously compared to the not-so-well connected… I think even… Read more »
I mixed things up there: that should have been, less likely to be listened to and taken seriously compared to the well-connected. My bad.
“ALL of us are having this fuckery shoved down our throats.”
But it seems that only men are condemned for it.
The pressure is even harder to deal with when you’re naturally introverted. One’s deisre to be left alone then looks pathological in our extravert-centric society.
Good point Drew. I think the difference isn’t that men think they are the only ones that get messages about needing relationships (thus thinking that don’t go through it). It’s that women have had about a 40 head start on being told it’s okay to not be in a relationship. A 40 head start on being told that attracting a mate isn’t a core necessity.
@Julia Byrd Having just been through a round of online dating, here are some of the honest things I could have said to men I chose not to meet: “I spent considerable time and effort crafting a profile that says a lot about who I am, and what I want, and the best you can do for a response is “Hey. Gimme a call if you want to chat”?” or, “Thanks for responding to my ad, but language skills are really important to me, and you can’t write a coherent sentence.” or, “You seem like a lovely person, but your… Read more »
@jam-today (I’m not sure why my previous comment got moderated. I have gone back through and re-written it in case my tone was misinterpreted.) The key point everyone has been saying is to be respectful. Whether or not your response is appropriate will depend on the reason you are rejecting the guy; there is no clear-cut answer. While some guys appreciate a straight up answer, and that’s my preference as well (although even I would have a hard time being told my personality is like luke-warm oatmeal,) there is a difference between being straightforward and being condescending or even just… Read more »
@KC Krupp Thank you! Those are really great responses that would never have come naturally to me. I will keep them as examples of how to respond more usefully, but without offense, in the future. The part about looking at their profiles is less useful to me, in particular, but probably quite appropriate in other situations. In my case, I was posting on Craigslist, so there was no corresponding profile to check out, and all I had to go by was the person’s response. I prefer that format, because what I’m really looking for is someone who will actually engage… Read more »
Nice job there, KC. 🙂
Personally, I much prefer it when someone just tells me they’re not interested. I hate it when people start going off on one and trying to give reasons for saying no. As far as I’m concerned, everyone is perfectly entitled to say “no” to anything without having to give a reason for it. I actually think a lot of these problems would be much reduced if this idea was more widespread.
as for online dating, I think the best rejection response is a simple “thanks for the message, but I’m not interested. Good luck in your search though!”
“I’m dead serious about this, guys: What do you WANT to hear from a woman who doesn’t pick you?” YES. If she’s got any reason at all for not picking me, I’d like to hear it. When about 10% (on OKCupid, which for me is the best of all possible dating sites) of the women contacted can be bothered to say anything at all in response, you come to appreciate even a negative response. I get that sometimes there’s no expressible reason for a rejection, and that’s fine – if there’s no reason then no response is probably the best… Read more »
Sorry, I just realized I missed a word in what you wrote. I thought you said “Do you WANT to hear from a woman who doesn’t pick you?”
What I want to hear is the honest reason she didn’t pick me.
I think I, and many women, are genuinely afraid that you speak for the minority, and if we speak our minds, we’ll end up regretting it, though. I can tell you, from experience, lots of men do NOT want to hear any negative feedback.
Yeah, I understand that there’s a danger posed by at least some men in this regard, I just don’t understand why that affects online-only interactions. If you’re sitting next to someone you’re afraid may be volatile or violent, by all means do what you need to do to get yourself out of there safely. When you’ve given no information to a guy about your location or identity and all communication has been mediated by a website which has as a primary purpose the protection and safety of that information, I don’t understand the reluctance to be honest. Now obviously our… Read more »
I’m with you, about the depression. I really appreciate the *idea* of the site, but the reality of it makes me want to cry, and give up.
You have to remember that women on dating sites tend to get inundated with messages from men, and most of them don’t have the time to go through each one and explain to the guy exactly why she’s rejecting him.
It would be most helpful if women would just start being honest with men on why they are rejecting them. No, it really wouldn’t. How does it help you to be told “Sorry, but those jug ears make you look goofy”? Or “I just started sleeping with your roommate?” The only information you need is, she does not want a relationship with you. Yes, I get that it’s frustrating when what you’re hearing is “You’re a wonderful guy; you’re just not good enough.” But that’s not what she’s saying. When a woman starts in telling you what a nice guy… Read more »
No it is not. It is about her protecting her own feelings. She doesn’t want to feel bad about dumping you, so she engages emotional defences.
Yes it actually could be for some people, but maybe not for others. If you have a problem with me being fat then even for as much as it would hurt I’d rather you just say you have a problem with my being fat instead of trying to beat around the bush. I think it’s a mix of what you and Dr. Anonymous are saying. Sometimes she might be trying to soften the blow while at other times she’s trying to protect her own feelings. Yes, I get that it’s frustrating when what you’re hearing is “You’re a wonderful guy;… Read more »
Yeah it’d suck to be told your weight is an issue but at least you know not to try again and it’s a tip that losing weight may help.
Exactly! I have found that a lot of my personal growth has come from when women are HONEST about why they are rejecting me, why they don’t want to go out on another date with me, etc. It helps me to figure out what I should change and when.
Funny. Isn’t some of the advice given to guys that are having trouble in the realm of dating something to the effect of listening to women and paying attention to the signs they give off (I know that’s come up in the Nerdlove articles that have popped up around here lately)? Well if they aren’t saying anything it makes it a bit hard to pay attention. Sure a woman doesn’t owe you an explaination but if she’s going to give one then wouldn’t be best for her to be as honest and open as possible? So now it sounds like… Read more »
I don’t get all this talk about “trying to protect his feelings/ego” when rejecting an approach from someone.
Most of the times I’ve just been met with a long blank stare from head to toe and back up, followed by turning around without a word.
You could try asking a friend for their honest opinion of what it is about your “approach” that constantly recieves such a reaction. Could be you’re unknowingly coming off as a creep-inducing douche.
@Drew Morrison: I find that this is a pretty good explanation. Sadly, girls are trained to “be nice” which gives them the mistaken impression that they can’t be critical.
Shouldn’t you just assume that when someone turns you down, you should take her stated reasons with a grain of salt? You really want to be told that she feels no sexual attraction for you? She’s trying to let you save face and not say anything that will be critical and hurtful.
The problem is it ends up being much more hurtful (not to mention frustrating and confusing) for a guy to be told he’s “too nice” or “too good a friend”, or the other usual suspects of excuses. On one hand, you can be direct without being hurtful. “I just don’t feel the same way” means you aren’t interested in dating him. He feels rejected for a day or two and gets over it. Saying “You’re such a good friend and I don’t want to mess that up” tells him “You had a chance but you fucked it up by being… Read more »
Being a person no one feels a spark for is a desolate prospect. You really DO feel like a less valuable human being if you cannot create magic with another. You know what the best, most beautiful thing about humanity is; and nothing is so depressing as feeling like due to who you are, that beauty is closed off to you forever. Quite simply, we do a lot of our growth through our relationships. Therefore, when someone rejects us, it feels like a lot worse than just missing out on sex– we’ve been denied life experience, memories, practice of life… Read more »
@Drew Morrison “The problem is it ends up being much more hurtful (not to mention frustrating and confusing) for a guy to be told he’s “too nice” or “too good a friend”, or the other usual suspects of excuses.” The thing is–this might actually be a very honest answer. There are a couple of male friends that really ARE too good friends to me–to the point of almost being in brother territory. It’d be weird as heck to hook up with them. There’s nothing wrong with their personalities or physiques–so I couldn’t honestly give them any constructive criticism on that.… Read more »
@Sarah….
How is telling a lie allowing him to save face? Just who anointed her to be the one to allow him to “save face….”
Again, you are simply pretending that it does not matter to him.
Well he kind of annointed her as the one to let him save face, by choosing to interact with her. Heston, I think most women in this situation are trying to be polite. Maybe there are better ways to go about it but personally I’d have a really hard time honestly telling someone “I don’t like you because of x, y, or z” — that just seems mean. I agree that saying “you are too nice to date” is bad and unhelpful, but I don’t think it is socially appropriate to give a critical run down on everything you don’t… Read more »
“Heston?” argh, autocorrect.
Because they tell you that you’re hot whilst rejecting you without saying they don’t find YOU in particular hot. SO you sit there wondering why you’re hot but she doesn’t want you. It’s worse when you’re young n naive, especially if multiple women do it to you and you don’t get a gf you’ll start to think they might be lying. No one teaches us that we aren’t attracted to everyone, the universal beauty myth was pushed on me in highschool so I took it personally until I realized we aren’t all attracted to everyone. Being told you’re nice n… Read more »
You don’t understand because you aren’t FORCED to take the initiative and approach the opposite sex (or whatever sex you’re attracted to) if you ever want anything to happen. As someone who is, nothign is worse than constantly being rejected and not knowing why, or constantly being rejected and just being told, “You’re nice.” One woman tells me something, might not be a big deal; but if I get feedback from 3, 4 women along the same lines, then maybe I need to work on something. If I’m too fat, I can lose weight. If I don’t make enough money,… Read more »
For what it’s worth, Steve Barnes asked the woman in his social circle who most resembled the sort of woman he was looking for what she wanted in a mate, then made such adjustments in himself as were feasible.
That wouldn’t be a lot of use though really, considering that attraction is completley subjective. What happens when one woman says you’re too fat, then another says you’re too thin? Also I’m a pretty short guy, and I know for some women that can mean they don’t see me as boyfriend material. What good is it going to do me if they tell me that? I could get around it by only going after women who are my height and shorter, but then I’d miss out on chances with tall women who don’t care about it.
Consider there might be a reason other than “bitches be crazy” that these women are not being honest about why they are rejecting you. For example, she has been raised to be “nice” and to “let him down gently” and “not hurt his feelings”, and similar stuff without any concrete way to go about this, as rather a lot of women are. She may be concerned that if she is straightforward that you will not accept her reasons or will try to talk her out of them or be angry at her. Yes, it is frustrating, but I doubt she… Read more »
You can let someone down gently by saying you don’t have a spark with them. You’re a great guy but I just don’t feel that chemistry, spark, that attraction yadda yadda for you. Leaving him hanging by saying he’s such a nice guy n how women would love him can make you feel like you’ve failed with her, messed something up but to know the chemistry isn’t there could help. Rejection sucks but false hopes or the feeling that you had a chance n blew it realllly sucks. Rejection isn’t the major annoying part, it’s when they’re all over you,… Read more »
Uh, so, where’s the official list of Things I’m Allowed To Do To Platonic Friends? Because I do have platonic relationships where I discuss my underwear with people! And that doesn’t mean that I’m leading them on or flirting or anything, it’s just that I have Thoughts On Underwear, okay. What this sounds like is that you need to set a boundary with your friends. “When you do [insert SPECIFIC behavior here– don’t say “flirting,” say “talking about your underwear”] it makes me feel like you’re flirting with me, and since I know we’re platonic it makes me feel uncomfortable.… Read more »
@Archy, you’re all over the place here. If the problem is that she’s flirting and messing with your head, “You’re a great guy but I don’t have a spark with you” is not going to be any nicer, or any letting-down-gently-er, than “you’re such a nice guy but…” They’re exactly the same thing, and you’ll get exactly as mad when you sit there and seethe “then why the hell were you talking to me about your underwear?!”
I meant that separately, some will do that whilst others won’t. The ones that mess with your head are gonna piss you off either way, but for decent people who just tell you you’re such a nice guy I think it’s probably better to also mention stuff about chemistry n a spark and find some way to remove doubt.
Why? I really, genuinely do not get the difference between “you’re a nice guy, I just don’t have any spark for you” and “you’re a nice guy, I’m sure some other woman will adore you.” It sounds like what you are looking for is reassurance that your chances were always zero, not that you blew it, and….really neither of those sentences says anything of the kind. Either one could be her not wanting to tell you that you had a change that you screwed up. Archy, what I’m getting from your comments is that you are spending a lot of… Read more »
I’ve had the non-acceptance of my rejection issue with past self proclaimed nice guys. For some of those guys I ended up with guys making lifestyle changes or changes in appearance to try to appease me even though I said I’m just not that into you along with my open/honest reasons why. Even if I leave it with there’s just not that spark is problematic. It’s akin to saying that someone is just too nice. Still vague. Still I don’t leave guys hanging with a “you’re just too nice” ending. I think there is also a difference between a genuinely… Read more »
I’m kinda glad you said something along these lines, because as I was reading the comments from men here saying “Just be honest,” I was thinking of men I’ve known, and men whom my friends have dated, who would just not back off after a rejection, even if they’re told the reasons why. They argue, they hang around, they try to prove they can change by reacting to the particular point of critique, etc. In short, they don’t take rejection for an answer, no matter what the reasoning behind it – gentle or cruel, honest or little white lie.
KKZ: it’s because they think they can negotiate desire.
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/08/25/the-desire-dynamic/
You can’t control what other people do. You can only control what you do. If you do right, then it’s on them when they do wrong. Maybe things don’t always work out the way they should, but that’s not the excuse you seem to think it is. It’s just a crappy part of life.
I’m sorry that you can’t accept that. Let me it in terms that every good man has had drilled into them since they were about knee-high to their daddy’s leg: Life isn’t fair, but that don’t mean you shouldn’t be.
The thing about friendships, that most women hurling the Nice Guy(tm) argument seem to forget is that I am as free to terminate a friendship as I am to terminate a relationship. If I have a friendship with a woman that I no longer gain anything from, then I am free to terminate this friendship be it out of any reason whatsoever, I don’t like spending time anymore, I don’t like the way the friendship is turning and so on.
You’re right. No one is owed friendship and there’s no law that says two people must stay friends. The only thing to keep in mind is that you were leading this woman on if you pretended to be her friend just to get sex. You were cruel and lied to her. I get that some people don’t care what others feel, but it’s something to keep in mind if you do. Friends drift apart all the time or their values change. There’s nothing wrong with that. But if you say you want to be friends with her, but really only… Read more »
I really don’t think that “the ‘good friend’ represses his attraction and disappointment into some dark corner of his heart and acts as if nothing has happened” and “the ‘evil friend’ instantly breaks up the friendship, because it was all just a lie to get into her pants” are the only two possibilities here.
That’s a false dichotomy. Most situations are more complicated.
And there are two persons who have to act as friends.
Have you ever been rejected by someone romantically and tried to remain friends with them?
I manage this fairly regularly, but it fucking hurts. And it’s difficult. And I don’t blame anyone who doesn’t want to go through it.
This has nothing to do with “the only reason you wanted to be friends was to sleep with them” and everything to do with “rejection is quite emotionally painful, and to be reminded of that frequently is not something everyone can stomach.” Which is a totally fair reason not to hang out with someone anymore.
You’re assuming that the man is pursuing the woman for sex, and not a relationship. I think you’re also conflating being friendly with being friends.
Also, think about it like this. What if a woman *did* say ‘to heck with it’ and had sex with all of her male friends. How would she be treated?
Doesn’t really follow from what I’m saying. The point is that the guy may be pursuing a woman for a relationship (sex & friendship, to use the terms already in play, though that’s a incredibly reductive description of a relationship) if he really likes her, and then when rejected the hurt can sometimes be so intense it prompts distancing from her as a form of self-preservation. Nor does it mean that they’re necessarily “lying” – as I said, there’s a difference between being friendly and being A Friend. In addition, friendships wax, wane and drift all the time. Sometimes the… Read more »
The real problem comes when a guy keeps hanging around in the hope that he might get sex/a relationship then gets angry at the woman when she refuses to give them to him.
It depends on the group of friends. Among my friends, I think she’d be treated respectfully and appreciatively by the (straight and bi) men and resented by some of the women. But then I’m often a poor judge of social outcomes.
Then again, if you expect that someone would treat you poorly if you did have sex, why would you want to be friends with them?
Why do you think “most women seem to forget” this?
1. What was said was most women HURLING the Nice Guy ™. And that I believe this comes from observations that somehow a man who is rejected is supposed to still be friend with the woman who rejected, instead of protecting his own emotions and moving on.
I can see this happening. Guy meets woman and starts friendship. Guy begins to feel like he wants to go past friendship and go to a more personal level. Woman rejects him. At this point he is left in the awkward position of should he go back to the friendship or cut off all ties after having his feelings hurt. As you say doctor women that toss around the Nice Guy label seem to think that all guys that get to that position got there by starting friendships with women with the intent of eventually getting to sex. Yes that… Read more »
This is fascinating because it’s such an alien thought process to me. I’ve never met a woman I wanted to sleep with without knowing I wanted to do so basically straight away. I can’t imagine forming a friendship with a woman and only then deciding later I wanted to have sex with her.
“I’ve never met a woman I wanted to sleep with without knowing I wanted to do so basically straight away” This is fascinating to me. See, I’ve never ever met a man (or woman) I wanted to sleep with straight away. I always need the context and the friendship first. I need a story. I need to know something about the person, to know if we have chemistry. And I’m high libido and I value sex very much. Attraction just takes some time. Most of the people I developed incredibly strong sexual and emotional feelings for–I barely noticed at first.… Read more »
This is an interesting discussion. You say you need chemistry: chemistry is a reciprocal word. It is implies mutuality. For me whether or not I want to sleep with someone is not contingent on whether or not they want me too. My attraction triggers go off very quickly. Briefly, they are some combination of looks, clothing, and most of all body language – you can tell so much about a person from their body language, and certain vocal tics and body language tells send my desire into overdrive.
“For me whether or not I want to sleep with someone is not contingent on whether or not they want me too.”
For me, it’s necessary. To sleep with someone who finds you unattractive sounds absolutely miserable.
There’s a difference between “want to sleep” with someone and “actually will sleep with someone”. Obviously on a practical level sex with someone who finds you unattractive isn’t going to happen. I’m talking about what sets off my initial attraction triggers, not what leads me to pursue things further. Obviously if they show no signs of interest then it’s time to look elsewhere, no matter how sexy I might still find them.
““For me whether or not I want to sleep with someone is not contingent on whether or not they want me too.” For me, it’s necessary.” That sounds to me like the luxury of not having to take the initiative. If you don’t want to sleep with someone until after you already know that they want to sleep with you, you have to realize that this state of affairs cannot be universal or nobody would ever want to sleep with anybody else and the species would die off, while this is not true of CmE’s (I can’t find a good… Read more »
like Aya, knowing that a guy is attracted to me is a major part of the mutual chemistry I need to want sex with him. I can ‘t imagine having sex with a guy who didn’t really want me. How humiliating! If I knew that ‘s how he felt, I would completely lose interest.
I think this is why 99% of women would never pay for sex. It just wouldn’t ve enjoyable.
That’s why I think you’re using different meanings of the word “want”. I think you and Aya are saying “I don’t consider it a good proposition to sleep with someone who might not be attracted to me”, and I think CmE has already agreed with that sentiment. I think what CmE is saying is that his (I assume) feeling of physical, primal attraction is not dependent on whether or not said feeling is mutual, whereas his evaluation of whether or not said feeling is worth acting on is. If you are also saying that the feeling of physical, primal attraction… Read more »
99% of women probably never NEED to pay for sex. Reading the comments here it’s pretty clear the women have engaged in casual sex and a few have said it was easy to get. I haven’t seen any men say casual sex is easy to get.
So, imagine you develop incredibly strong sexual and emotional feelings for a friend of yours, and that friend doesn’t feel the same way. What’s your solution? Do you just grit your teeth and pretend your feelings don’t exist, and then cry yourself to sleep at night? Do you have some kind of reset button at the back of your head that can make strong feelings go away? What makes you think that these situations are never difficult to the point of shattering a friendship? I really can’t reconcile your first post with your second one, first you imply that “friendships… Read more »
It can be either. Friendships can turn into stronger feelings. On the other hand, if you’re simply faking a friendship to have sex, that’s different. I absolutely understand needing to end a friendship if the feelings don’t match up or it hurts too much.
Let’s be honest though, not too many folks really have the time to pretend to be friends with someone in an attempt to get sex. I mean, you seem to really have a very low opinion of men and some pretty inconsistent thoughts on dating with regard to men, Aya.
You’d think, wouldn’t you? But when you look at certain comments/posts that’s exactly what a lot of the self proclaimed “nice guys” are doing.
I don’t see anyone here pretending to be friends? There is a big difference in being a friend n hoping for more vs pretending to be friends. There are those who are told to be friends first then ask someone out, but that still isn’t pretending to be a friend.
This is fascinating because it’s such an alien thought process to me. I’ve never met a woman I wanted to sleep with without knowing I wanted to do so basically straight away. I can’t imagine forming a friendship with a woman and only then deciding later I wanted to have sex with her. Funny because from what I understand plenty of women go through just that process. They connect with someone and get to know them and then they may or may not develop the desire to want to have something deeper with the guy in question. This is exactly… Read more »
@Danny- Your scenario about a man and a woman becoming friends and then the man realising he has feelings for the woman is a very plausable one, as attractions often develop after people have known each other for a little while. This, however, makes me think that a reason why women might use the ‘you’re such a nice guy’ thing when they reject a man they are already friends with is that they genuinely like the man, value his friendship and want to keep it. It is up to the man to decide if he can still be friends with… Read more »
This, however, makes me think that a reason why women might use the ‘you’re such a nice guy’ thing when they reject a man they are already friends with is that they genuinely like the man, value his friendship and want to keep it. Let’s rehash what happened when your friend confessed his deeper feelings for you: First, the underlying parameters of your friendship suddenly changed. This will probably result in changes in how the boundaries in your friendship are set: he might not be comfortable with you making jokes about your underwear or gushing about that cute guy in… Read more »
@Danny- Your scenario about a man and a woman becoming friends and then the man realising he has feelings for the woman is a very plausable one, as attractions often develop after people have known each other for a little while. Indeed. This, however, makes me think that a reason why women might use the ‘you’re such a nice guy’ thing when they reject a man they are already friends with is that they genuinely like the man, value his friendship and want to keep it. Certainly possible. It is up to the man to decide if he can still… Read more »
“If he decides to be away from her he is accused of having nefarious intentions from the start but if he stays and it turns out he probably would have been better off leaving (as in he turns bitter despite his best efforts) he’s accused of having nefarious intentions from the start but if he stays and somehow doesn’t turn bitter he may still be accused of having nefarious intentions (namely that he is sticking around in hopes that he still has a shot or is working on “wearing her down”).” this can be solved through the wonders of communication.… Read more »
True, but like Ozy pointed out, “nice,” for most people, is necessary but not sufficient. My cousin is very happily married to a redneck kind of a guy, who loves sports and hunting, and isn’t a fan of reading or sci-fi movies. I am happy for her; she and her husband are genuinely compatible with each other, and they’re happy. However, I don’t want to marry that kind of guy. My current boyfriend loves Legos and Doctor Who, and we’ve swapped favorite books on more than one occasion. My cousin wouldn’t be interested in a guy like that; she’s not… Read more »
Yet another woman who misunderstands the nice guy issue. I dunno how many people have to say it for it to sink in, but…in your analogy…The problem is the woman complains that her room needs curtain, goes to the store, looks at the curtain n says how much she wants one then buys a floor rug instead.
I disagree. The nice guy issue seems to stem from the fact that a particular shopper wants a floor rug, but a curtain gets upset because the curtain has certain qualities the shopper has expressed in wanting for a floor rug. To step out of the analogy: a woman may want a boyfriend who can make her laugh, or a boyfriend who will do nice things for her, or a boyfriend who will listen to her. But that doesn’t mean that making her laugh, or doing nice things, or listening to her is qualification for being someone she wants as… Read more »
I can’t comment for other men, but the “nice guy” thing for me doesn’t sound like your analogy. To give one example, I had a girlfriend who claimed she wasn’t interested in sex because she was asexual. I told her that would be an issue eventually, but for the time being, I was happy to forego, and she agreed to those terms. Later, she said she wanted an open relationship because she knew I had a sex drive and she’d rather I have sex with someone else honestly rather than cheat on her. I tried to assure her that wasn’t… Read more »
My condolences on your horrifying relationships. This has never happened to me. I’m not absolutely “nice” but I’m far from an asshole and I’ve certainly got the “you’re too nice to date” talk more than once*. I wonder what the determining factor is? When you talk about “type variance” you talk about it in very social mainstream ways (more or less attractive, more or less dominant.) That doesn’t seem to me to be the thing that needs variation, here. It may be that you have a thing for inaccessible women? Or that you have a thing for women who, themselves,… Read more »
I don’t know. I’ve talked to other people about it (including my therapist) and they’ve all concluded that I’ve just had really crap luck. It could hypothetically be any number of things, but that’s beside the point. The point is just that there are (or, at least it seems to me) plenty of douchebags out there of both genders and it’s possible (or even probable) that many of those experiencing “Nice Guy Syndrome” aren’t just douchebags who expect their female friends to put out for them.
“and it’s possible (or even probable) that many of those experiencing “Nice Guy Syndrome” aren’t just douchebags who expect their female friends to put out for them.” Yes, it’s actually very common. Probably more common than the douchebags. But hey in these discussions women are always innocent and never lie to men, use them etc, there is no group of dbag women that cause the world of hell for some poor schmucks who call emselves “Nice Guys (TM)” who’s only fault was being naive n trusting the wrong women. It’s always about how the nice guy is entitled and is… Read more »
“There’s no one nice guy type, there’s a bunch of people who call emselves nice, some are nice, some are told they are nice often, some are wolves in sheeps clothing, some are just douchebags.” Hell, yes. It’s a really vague, diverse category, like the word “nice” itself. “Nice” has so many meanings that it’s virtually meaningless as a word. If I may take Ozy’s analogy further, some “nice guys” (some!) act like doormats. They will tend to attract people who are looking for doormats. Some “nice guys” act like assholes but think of themselves as doormats. Self-reporting of “nice… Read more »
Hey, I KNOW I have a terrible sense of humor…
I call myself an asshole, I get told I’m nice but I can be an asshole (shit stirrer at times mainly for mutual laughs) n pretty selfish. I am me, a mixed bag, I use to think I was nice but as you say it doesn’t really work and too many others describe emselves as such.
I always considered niceness to be like humility: if other people say it of you, then it’s probably true, but if you hear someone describe him/herself that way, then it’s probably false.
Or to put it another way: If you have to tell me that you’re a “nice guy” for me to know about it, then you probably aren’t really as nice as you think you are. 🙂
@Archy, so, you’re not actually interested in a discussion per se, because anyone who disagrees with you is pretending women are angels and guys are all scumbags. Thanks for clearing that up so that nobody wasted time thinking it was possible to have a productive conversation. Sheez.
Strawmannnnnn. Did I say that? NO, I’m referring to a common theme on discussions similar to this by some people in a sarcastic manner. Maybe I didn’t make it clear enough but part of that was generalizing as a joke. Maybe I should have used /sarcasm instead.
A joke? You finished your post with /endrant. When you go on about how these discussions ALWAYS end up with men picked on and women treated like angels, the sarcasm doesn’t mean “ha ha, just kidding”, it means “I’m serious and really pissed off.”
Well I was wrong on the always of course, change it to sometimes. It’s a sarcastic post detailing my annoyance at some who treat women as innocent n blame the guys for it. It’s pretty damn common to see nice guys generalized as assholes vs being a wide variety as I said.
Let’s be inclusive, now. Shouldn’t it be “strawperson”? Or, after centuries of the word “strawman,” how about calling these bad arguments “strawwomen” arguments? For a little historical leveling. : – )
Speaking as someone who has had and escaped a youthful series of “horrifying relationships” I can tell you exactly why your exes have done things like this: In short, you let them. In your story, the relationship she offered wasn’t the one you wanted, but you went along with it. You phrase this to yourself as if you are being the hero, as opposed one of those “assholes” who “only wants one thing,” but you did want that one thing, and although you had no right to expect her to give it to you, you also didn’t have to stick… Read more »
@rob…
Bravo!!!
@Robert Case bravo from me too
I appreciate your efforts to make her lying to me repeatedly anyone’s fault but her own, but I respectfully disagree. I did NOT expect her to “come around”. I expected her to most likely remain asexual as she had long claimed this as a sexual identity. “Eventually” means marriage wasn’t an option, but it doesn’t mean we can’t enjoy a relationship for a few years. I was clear to her about all of this. And no, I wasn’t pressuring her for sex. Believe it or not, men are capable of wanting relationships with women for things other than sex. I… Read more »
I guess I don’t see where this is a problem, then. You say you genuinely weren’t into her for the sex, and she found someone else with whom she mutually wanted the sexual relationship you were content without. If she’d never wanted such a relationship before this other person expressed an interest, I don’t see how that’s a lie. Meanwhile, you had accepted the relationship would end over the issue of her professed asexuality, and it did. Sounds to me like everybody got more or less the relationship he or she consented to. If not, please explain how you anticipated… Read more »
I’m absolutely sorry, Enoch, for what you faced. But I don’t get one thing. You claim that she lied to you. It looks to me like she was honest with you every step of the way while also struggling with her own sexuality. I don’t doubt that she truly felt that she was asexual when you started dating–and it’s not like she hid the fact that sex was not part of your relationship. When she did want to have sex with this other guy, she was also upfront. I’ve known people who genuinely thought they were straight for a while… Read more »
/cheer
Excellent! This is one of the best summaries of the problems faced by self-identifying ‘nice guys’ that I’ve seen. I’m not ashamed to admit that I have personally fallen into a trap of not standing up for myself for fear of being an arse hole in the past. I figured it out a couple of years back, as I left my teens behind (I’m a pretty anxious guy, so I was a slow learner). Being honest and up front about things saves a great deal of frustration and unhappiness. I wish I’d had someone explain this properly to me years… Read more »
You disagree? I’ve been a nice guy before, I wrote what I experienced. I was told I had the qualities she was looking for, told I was a great guy then she routinely chose others on top of her flirting with me n being amibiguous in her behaviour. The way she acted was half the time interested, half the time not. You don’t pull the curtain down n put it in your shopping bag then throw it back out and repeat this a few times do you?
Did you ever actually speak to her about this? Did you ever sit her down and say “i feel like you’re blowing hot and cold with me, this isn’t fair, I need to know where I stand” or something similar? People aren’t psychic, and people don’t always know how their behaviour affects others. It could be she was maliciously using you, or it could be she didn’t think you had a problem with the situation because you stuck around and never complained. It always seems to me that a lot of the “nice guy ™” rants you see could have… Read more »
Yeah, didn’t work. I dunno if all who do it are being malicious, there was plenty of communication but she has issues. I don’t think she meant to do it but it was very confusing.
Not sure If I should market myself as a Billy Bookcase or a Shabby Chic Chesterfield Sofa. Which is better, studiously up against the wall or folks sprawling all over you in Ox blood red leather?
I find both are compelling.
LOL – maybe we should get together and have a chat over a glass of Merlot? P^)
Now, if at least one of the Guys had said that I could proposition him – We can but dream. LOL.