Roger Durham finds that in discussions about spirituality, asking questions is more important than finding answers.
We were on our first bottle of wine, a Silver Oak Cabernet, when Danny leaned over to me and said, in his crisp British accent, “So Roger, we’ve never had a proper conversation about you having been a minister. I fancy myself an atheist, but I’m curious, what kind of minister were you?” The restaurant was loud and crowded. My wife and I and five other couples had been at Churchill Downs all day betting on the horses and enjoying the refreshment of Kentucky Bourbon and a variety of imported and domestic beers. It was our annual gathering for the Kentucky Derby. Danny had been making the trip to Louisville for six years and had never expressed the slightest curiosity about my former profession. But, for some reason, this was the night Danny chose to ask his questions of me. Why, I wondered.
“I’m a Presbyterian, Danny, but tell me, why do you think you’re an atheist?”
“Seriously, Roger?”
“Seriously, Danny. Why do you say you don’t believe in God?”
“For starters, it’s hard for me to picture some kind, old man sitting on his throne, deciding who will join him in heaven and who will not, and standing by while horrible things happen to perfectly innocent people. I would rather believe there is no god, than to believe in a god like that,” Danny said.
“Well, Danny, by your description I must be an atheist too. I have no interest in a god like that.”
Danny looked at me as if he couldn’t decide whether I was joking, making fun of him, or blowing him off. The fact that I could agree with him was not something he had anticipated. And that opened the door to an interesting and honest dinner conversation. We ordered another bottle of wine and kept going.
After some playful banter about biblical stories, fairy tales and myths, I asked Danny, “Have you wondered why human beings are curious about these kinds of things? Do you ever think about how creation has reached such a point of self-reflection?”
“It’s evolution, Roger. Simple as that. Natural selection.”
“Selection toward what, Danny?”
“Toward survival.”
“Survival for what? Why survive? Where did that impulse come from? Why is that there?”
We teased that thought out for awhile, then, conversation drifted as dinner was served. I wondered why this was important to Danny, in this setting. We had been at the track all day. We were enjoying the festivities that surround the Kentucky Derby. Everybody has the kinds of questions Danny was asking. Most people find others they can trust enough to explore those questions with. But I couldn’t figure out why the questions were coming up now, in this sublime setting after such a fantastically fun day. Then, after dinner, Danny leaned over again and said, “You know, Roger, I was surprised at how moving it was for me to be in the church several weeks ago for my father’s funeral.” Ah, there’s the reason, I thought. “People thought it hypocritical of me, being so adamantly atheist, yet to be so moved by the ceremony. But I was moved – by the words and the music and the tradition.”
It was the first time Danny and I had spoken since his father’s death. I had written him a letter, offering condolences, but we had not talked. I was embarrassed not to have said something when we first saw each other, but now the conversation made sense to me. Death does have a way of bringing questions more sharply into focus.
♦◊♦
That night, I didn’t try to give Danny any answers. I answered his questions, where I could, but often my answers came in the form of questions. “What was it about the tradition that moved you, Danny? Did you feel the contradiction that other people felt in you? Do you think your atheism sets you apart from those around you? Is that important to you?” At the risk of sounding like a therapist, I was genuinely interested in what he was thinking.
And that may have been the most surprising part of the evening for Danny. I think he was expecting answers from me that he could easily dismiss, or answers that would give him something to hang onto. Instead, I gave him more questions, which, I am convinced, are what really matter. The questions we are willing to ask do as much to define us as the answers we are willing to accept.
That’s why I enjoyed that conversation so much that night. Danny challenged my worldview. He made me think. I’d like to think he made me a better man that night, because he tested my willingness to listen and to learn, as much by the questions I was asking, as by the answers he was offering.
Photo: DieselDemon on Flickr
Wow, these are great questions that deserve more attention than I can give while sitting at my desk making sales calls. I will get back to the conversation this evening. I wil leave you with some questions for now: What is the value of metaphor for you? And how does music and art distinguish humanity from the rest of creation? And how, or where, did love evolve into the survival equation? More later.
Gus, I appreciate you taking the time to do this, but you didn’t move the conversation any further than Danny and I did that night. Here’s one question I have for you. You say: “There’s no impulse, there’s no consciousness to evolution or survival, it is the inevitable outcome of life. Survive to reproduce effectively or cease to exist. There’s not really any more “why” than that.” I disagree completely with you about the lack of consciousness in evolution. It may have been true before human being arrived, but the very fact that we are having this conversation indicates a… Read more »
I see two basic and related questions here: Is it really possible to not believe in some organizing principle or order? And: How did evolution, guided merely by the principle of natural selection, result in a single species capable of asking these questions and that seems to feel the need to believe in some sort of God? In answer to your first question, I would say that most atheists probably do believe in some sort of organizing principle or order. The main differences are that we do not see any sort of external consciousness in that order and that we… Read more »
OK Gus, here are my thoughts: When you say: “we don’t base our belief in any kind of blind faith, authority, or ancient writ”, then, by your definition, or this part of your definition, I must be an atheist. I am not driven by blind faith (that term in itself feels layered with judgment, frankly). I don’t bow to some “authority”, even though I try to align my life to LOVE, and I don’t live by some “ancient writ”, even though I do find value in the lessons that can be drawn from many writings – religious, spiritual or mythological.… Read more »
Thanks for your honest and thoughtful replies. I don’t fully agree with you, obviously, but I understand where you’re coming from, and I think you’ve gotten some exposure to the way some atheists think. Certainly I’ve done all I can here. I think it was a productive discussion. I would pick one more nit – you say you must be an atheist by my definition, but don’t worry, the definition is a bit more complicated, and it does ultimately rely on believing that, given the evidence, the existence of anything that can rightfully be called a god is at least… Read more »
Thanks. I remember BR from my college days, but I will read him again as I’m sure my thought has evolved. I appreciate your willingness to stick with this conversation. We can agree to disagree on some points and leave it at that. As I said before, the questions I come away with are as intriguing, and as important, to me as any answers I may have discovered in our conversation.
Let me try providing a few more thoughtful answers, so you can get an idea of how other atheists feel. I’m going to stop with these answers, anyone seeking a long argument over this can peruse the internet, that discussion goes on interminably in many place. “I’m a Presbyterian, Danny, but tell me, why do you think you’re an atheist?” “Seriously, Roger?” Yeah, that’s about how I’d answer that one. “Seriously, Danny. Why do you say you don’t believe in God?” I say I don’t believe in God because I’m fundamentally honest and I don’t believe in God. “OK, Why… Read more »
Let me just point out one specific problem that an atheist like me is likely to have with this article: asking “why do you think you’re an atheist?” and “Why do you say you don’t believe in God?” immediately suggests to us that you don’t take his lack of belief seriously. You’ve implied right off the bat that he isn’t REALLY an atheist, he just thinks he is. It reads to us as if no one who is your friend and a nice person can be a real atheist, he must not know that he’s really not an atheist. You… Read more »
Thanks, Gus. The comments to my article have pushed me a lot. I know a several guys who identify themselves as atheists. I don’t look at them any differently than the guys I know who identify themselves as Buddhists, or Baptists, or whatever. What you have helped me to understand more fully, though, is the steroetype or stigma that is attached to atheism. And to the extent that my article contributes to that, I do apologize. At some level, I do honestly wonder if atheism is a reaction to a bad theism – or more accurately – I am convinced… Read more »
I appreciate your apology and your thoughtfulness on atheist stereotyping. I hope you don’t feel you’re getting jumped on too much, knowingly or not you’ve waded into something that’s become a bit of a raging argument in various places on the internet.
I definitely waded into waters I did not see. I had no idea of the raging argument. I don’t carry a lot of passion for the topic, but I do find it interesting. I will have to wander around the internet and find some of these “conversations”. Thanks.
Danny sounds like a very shallow atheist who really hasn’t thought out the reasons for his lack of belief. If you were really interested in “open” and “real” exchange, you would have pointed that out to him. Then perhaps he could have learned something about himself and grown from the exchange.
This apparently did not occur to you. From this I deduce that your theism is almost as superficial as Danny’s atheism.
Sally, thanks for taking the time to comment. I have been surprised at the interest this article has received, mostly from readers who identify with atheism. As I have said in comments above, I found the conversation with Danny far more interesting than that topic. Were I to write the article again, I would work to move the emphasis away from atheism/theism and toward a conversation between two guys in a public setting about a topic as private as ones beliefs. It’s a rare conversation among men. There was a lot of the conversation I did not recount – in… Read more »
Thanks for continuing to push Semiel. Had I intended this to be a critique of atheism, or an exploration of “non-theistic ethics” I would have approached it very differently. Had I been offering an academic argument against atheism I may have tried to take on some of that millenia of thought you mention, instead of Danny. Had this been Christian apologetic, I would have brought theologians to my side. This was a conversation between two guys. My friend’s questions about my former profession were the catalyst. Yes, I did use the word atheist in the title for effect. I wanted… Read more »
I feel Roger’s story and responses to Semeil’s emotionally charged comments as reasonable, open-minded and thought-provoking. With no disrespect intended I feel Semeil’s response to be somewhat condescending, and defensive with a “chip on the shoulder feeling.” In my opinion Dr. Durham exemplifies the art of respectful nonjudgmental debate fostering an environment for learning and or spiritual growth no matter your beliefs. I also agree with the premise we can all learn from one another whether asking or answering questions. I am confused by Semeil’s question, “what do you want me to talk about?” That being said I am curious… Read more »
Roger’s responses have indeed been open minded and thought provoking, and I am always thankful when someone is kind. I don’t want to get into my own personal thoughts on religion, but I know atheists have a bit of reason to be touchy. My friend, as an atheist can’t mention his ‘religion’ without being challenged, or having people react to it. He says to him, it isn’t a choice, it’s just he was never raised in a religion and never saw the need for one. It isn’t what he used to define himself, and he says he never understood what… Read more »
That’s helpful, Semeil. At the risk of sounding “compassionate, understanding, open-minded, and completely self-confident,” I appreciate your perspective. And I am sorry that you have experienced atheism to be systematically stereotyped. One of the things I value about The Good Men Project is it’s commitement to challenging stereotypes. So yours is an important contribution to this conversation. Could it be, though, that I was writing not about an atheist versus a Christian, but about Danny and Roger having an engaging dinner conversation over a crowded dinner table – something that challenges one of the stereotypes of men — that we… Read more »
To be fair, I do think that what I took away from the article is probably not what you intended me to find there. If you were indeed intending to write about openness and “realness”, then that’s a very valuable message, and I thank you for trying to promote that. That said, I think you ought to seriously consider the way you framed the issue. The article title starts with the word “atheist”, and all of the dialog is grade-school-level apologetics (and bad understandings of evolutionary biology). If the comparison between atheist and theist wasn’t intended to be important, it… Read more »
Why do these “encounters with an atheist” sorts of post always involve only the shallowest and least thoughtful atheists? He seriously wasn’t prepared for a question as simple as “Why are you an atheist?” The pretense that this is an article about questions and not answers is obviously bogus. The religious person is presented as thoughtful and sensitive, and the atheist is presented as completely oblivious. The fact that there is no response to the incredibly offensive (and hopefully false) insuation that he’s an atheist just to “feel special” proves that there’s no real desire to present atheism as an… Read more »
Semiel – you underestimate Danny and misread me. It was a very provocative conversation. I would welcome the same conversation with you. Honest exploration of differences is an important way to move thought forward. No pretense intended. Sorry that is the way it came across to you. Where exactly did you see “vapid religious propoganda? And would it surprise you to know that some of my “Christian friends” were as offended by this as you seem to be. Tell me more about what drives your passion on this topic.
It may have been a provocative conversation, but you give absolutely no reason to believe that from your article. All the conversation centers around why the atheist could possibly be an atheist, without a smidgen of reciprocity. I see it as vapid religious propaganda because it fits all the characteristics. The atheist is presented as doubting his own beliefs, having never really thought critically about religion, being unaware of the possibility of reasonable Christians, etc. The Christian is presented as compassionate, understanding, open-minded, and completely self-confident. It wouldn’t surprise me at all to know that Christians have objections to this… Read more »
I wouldn’t put it in as harsh terms, but I agree with Semiel. There is a mild, probably subconscious, feeling of condescension. However, I can’t blame Roger for that, so much. It’s hard for even the most open-minded person to avoid being condescending to someone that he truly disagrees with, when he’s not being outright hostile. And I would be interested in hearing more of the substance of the conversation. Yes, Christians and atheists can get along — just ask me and my Catholic wife. It’s not so surprising to us atheists, because we wouldn’t make it through the day… Read more »
Seconding, thanks for your thoughts. I don’t know that I can recall the details of the conversation, but I can tell you this – neither Danny nor I take the other to be monsters. Nor did we experience condescension from the other. At the end of the evening we agreed that we would enjoy more of that kind of conversation. I wasn’t trying to convince him to be Christian anymore than he was trying to convince me to be Atheist. He and I agreed on the curious role of religion on the contemporary shape of faith. He and I agreed… Read more »
Part of it is that you end the quoted conversation with your questions, leaving the sense that he couldn’t answer even if in the actual conversation he could. Your line here, “I think he was expecting answers from me that he could easily dismiss, or answers that would give him something to hang onto.” Sounds a little condescending to me, in that you are assuming this is true, but is that from the actual conversation or what you expect an atheist to be like? The thrust of the article seems to be that you talked to someone of a different… Read more »
Sam, thanks for the input. That is very helpful. The thrust of the article was intended to be: we are shaped as much, if not more, by the questions we are willing to ask, rather than the answers we give or get. Men have traditionally been socialized to have the answers, not questions. Part of my effort to be a “good man”, whatever that is, has taken me to focus on the questions of my life. The plot of the article was: two guys having a conversation that men stereotypically are not willing to have – a discussion about spiritual… Read more »
Although an infrequent participant at church I have also recently found myself more moved by church ceremonies… What is it that moves us? A death, wedding, baptism; perhaps these ceremonies represent the passage of time and acutely remind us of our place in the passage of time or the endless cycle of life and death.
Allen – I couldn’t agree more. It seems like you and I have sat through a lot of funerals lately. And with every one, I find myself wondering what people will be saying of me. Pretty sobering. And time does keep moving.
Thanks for this Roger. Really enjoyed reading it.
Thanks, Todd. I’d be interested to hear what you liked about it.