Newsflash nice guys, nothing is sexier than a man truly present. Plenty of women are ready to love you.
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We all know the phrase, “Nice guys finish last” and as I look back at my life, I would have to say that I agreed with it when I was in high school. The good news is, presuming that the type of woman you desire holds a bit more maturity than what you’d expect from a 15-year old girl, then rest assured, there are—believe it, or not—plenty of women hoping to meet their “Mr. Nice Guy.”
So what is it exactly about our culture that perpetuates this myth? Let’s start with some observations about adolescence. Understand, the upstanding citizen we may be today conflicts with the youth in an earlier stage, when we were caught up in that hormone-crazed tornado. To pretend we were not shaped by this time, would be an injustice.
Youth, for some, is an experiment in thrills. It’s the time in your life when you are meant to push boundaries and see how far you can go. “Mr. Nice Guy” isn’t going to bring you home past curfew because he fears repercussions with your parents and has weighed out doing so may mean not seeing you again. It’s a pretty smart tactic, if you think about it. “Mr. Thrill” will send her home with messy hair and let her sort it out. Probably the worst idea in the world and yet, that’s the voice of reason (or lack thereof) that many of us exercised in our journey to becoming who we are today. Maybe that explains why I was crazy about the boy who had been suspended from his school’s end-of-the-year field trip, yet managed to smuggle both of us into the field trip anyway even though I didn’t go to his school. Maybe it also explains why that shy guy who sat across from me in study hall and blushed when he saw me look his way…just didn’t do it for me. But today, in a grown-up version of this situation, I would be incredibly flattered and probably tell my girlfriends about it.
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Now let’s talk about adulthood, how I have redefined the meaning of “nice guy” and what it has actually meant in my life. For most of us, maturity will (or should) set in at some point. With a full-time job, two children to raise and a mortgage, it’s safe to say my priorities changed significantly over a 12-year period. Two years ago, I met a guy who I would today label a “Mr. Nice Guy.”
Although a self-declared “Mr. Thrill” in his youth, I wasn’t sure what to expect from “Mr. Nice Guy” in his 34-year old body, but believe me when I say that I quickly found nothing is sexier than a man who is truly present.
I’ve done a fair bit of dating since my divorce and can honestly say I was never impressed until he came along. Our relationship blossomed because I was able to put something into him I was never able to before…trust. He never made me feel replaceable. He was a man who I could count on to help around the house. A guy who would not simply apologize just to shut me up, but who would genuinely try to listen to understand. He cherished the little moments and there was just enough thrill left in him to keep me interested without creating instability in the core values that had become so important in shaping and defining the love that bloomed between us. All of the things that made him “Mr. Nice Guy” were the very things that let me love him deeply, and I am so proud to be marrying “Mr. Nice Guy” this September.
If you fear you’re a “Mr. Nice Guy” who is going to finish last, maybe you just haven’t met someone emotionally mature enough to value you. But I can tell you, when you do, she will love you and desire you more for those traits than any bozo lacking then, who she may be stuck dating now.
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Photo credit: Alysia Johnson
Haha the entitled ad angry little males around here are a piece of comedy. They all think the are niiice, while showing their desperate urge to control women’s sexuality. They truly believe women have to date them, always, and never have fun or date casually, specially these “other guys”. Intellectual dishonesty, exaggerated outrage and simply chauvinism. Sounds like bad guys, to me. Not only that, but also simply too pathetic and whiny, and at leas just a little bit on the crazy and stupid side as well. No sane and mature woman wants that shit. I know, I noticed… many,… Read more »
K
When a woman says “nice guy” she means she wants an edgy, cocky exciting bad-boy who will never cheat on her, sleep with any of her friends, ghost on her, or break her heart. The kind of “nice guy” women want does not exist. The kind of “nice guy” nice guys think they are simply bore women to death. Sorry guys. You need to lift and be all aloof and stoic. Women have been led to believe (by feminism) that in 50 years, human evolution and biology has been largely replaced with “progressive cool new stuff”. Well, it hasn’t. Nice… Read more »
Yikes, glad my girlfriend is an actual nice girl. Ending up with someone who never wanted nice guys until recently, and sees us in a utilitarian light would be worse than just being single foreever :/
Nice Guys, keep the faith! There are women who are NOTHING like the author, so don’t stop being nice just to avoid people like her- you can usually tell them apart from the rest anyway 🙂
Let me know if you find a single one.
It is just too bad that the real Good old fashioned women are Not around anymore because Most of them were really the Best compared to today.
“If you fear you’re a “Mr. Nice Guy” who is going to finish last”, this article reinforces it.
If anything, the author provides the best reason yet why men should NOT be nice if the ‘happy ending’ scenario she describes is what fate awaits some poor nice guy at the end.
I would stop being a nice guy specifically to AVOID being in this situation.
When we say “nice guys” finish last, do we really mean nice guys, or do we mean insecure people? http://killingthebreeze.com/advice-teenage-brother-nice-guys-finish-last/
As I think about it maybe it’s not so much that women grow to love a “nice guy”, but more women will grow to meet a nice guy half way. Mr. Thrill needs to mature a little and Mr. Nice guy needs to be a little more assertive and adventurous. Maybe the point is everybody grows and we meet in the middle.
John
Some of us feel loved and love back when we have our needs met.
A women at 20 – something can have different needs from when she is 30+, 40+
” A women at 20 – something can have different needs from when she is 30+, 40+” At 20 I wanted sex with women who were attractive to me and were nice. Maybe some 3some’s here n there before I get married. I am now 30 and have the same desires n tastes. I have a feeling I am slightly poly and would maybe have 3somes with the love of my life and another woman if we were both into it. Never found a woman attractive for bad behaviour. I have found some women who were bitches to be physically… Read more »
There is something definitely wrong here. The author and many of the women here think the author is telling men one thing and men are hearing something entirely different. The guys are receiving it as you should feel honored that I’m willing to give you the time of day now that I don’t have anything better going on. The guys are reacting the same way I did at that party, no thanks I deserve better. I deserve a person who’s interested in me. It seems the author is pushing there was a fundamental change. Statements like this “He can be… Read more »
Thank you, John! Excellent explanation. Yes, I certainly believe that most men read articles like this like “Nowadays that I’m all work and no fun with a mortgage to pay, I’m willing to give you the time of day, but I still expect you to do all the work to keep me enough thrilled not to leave you, to give me all the attention I crave, and to readily apologize for any perceived wrongdoing.” I would be curious to know just how does a woman read this article? And also how does a woman read a similar article written by… Read more »
“You say that dating a guy who is afraid of rejection just doesn’t do it for you. But can you tell me just what does dating a man who isn’t trustworthy or respect you, do to you? ”
Sometimes it is similar to why men go to prostirues or use porn.
Silke, “Sometimes it is similar to why men go to prostirues or use porn.” I’ve never been to a prostitute myself, nor do I know anyone who has, that I know of, so I can’t comment on that. But… Considering the possible consequences of having sex with another person IRL, personally I would find it difficult to have casual sex with someone who doesn’t come off as dependable or trustworthy. And I find it even more difficult to understand why someone would see lack of trust as a positive trait! I once had a brief sexual encounter with a woman… Read more »
John
Yes there is something wrong here !
“…..didn’t do it for me was also because he didn’t have the courage to actually talk to me. He was more worried about rejection and it showed a lack of confidence that was unappealing to me, at the time.” Let’s be honest here. Please. Even if he was confident enough to chat you up, you still would NOT have given him the time of day. You don’t harbor disdain for someone just because they refuse to chat you up, for whatever reason(s). There is more to it than that. Lastly, if the Mr. Thrills of the world are so great,… Read more »
Very well put, Jules.Thank you.
Can we just be clear about something here? There is nothing that says Mr. Thrill is the devil. There is nothing to say that a guy who likes adventure, who a free spirit is “bad”. Nor is any woman who dates him looking for abuse, unworthy of a trustworthy partner or looking for “trouble” in general. We are all different and have different traits and are attracted to different things at different stages of our life. One of the reasons “Mr. Nice Guy” – aka the guy who I sat across from in study hall — didn’t do it for… Read more »
Hi Alysia,
“If you read the less edited version on Your Tango, you will also find out that my fiancé was a Mr. Thrill in high school. Again, we all grow and change!”
Where is the editing you mention?
I can’t really find anything significantly different in the YourTango version, except tor the title and the paragraph partitions.
“We’ve all wanted different things at different stages of our lives”
Isn’t that a projection in itself?
But to answer your question, no, many of us haven’t.
Honestly, you are confusing a NICE GUY with a GENTLEMAN. A nice guy lacks confidence, has self control and is not a challenge while a gentleman is confident, has self control and is a challenge. A BAD BOY is confident, lacks self control and is a challenge.
As a guy, I understand the response and sentiment of the Men that have posted here. I have similar feelings about the article. The one thing I have decided though is not to let it make me become bitter. I know what it is like to feel that frustration. But I felt I didn’t want to live my life that way, so I worked on myself and try to “choose” better, if the opportunity came along. The one thing I do find confusing from Women is their definition of “Good Girl” and “Bad Girl”. Beyond the meaning of virgin and… Read more »
@ Silke There may have been practical reasons for this although it’s probably unfair to a degree. Part of it could be to convince the men to come back. They could have just abandoned their wives in Norway. We see this theory in safe harbor laws. Do people believe that mothers who abandon their infants should be punished. Certainly. Do people believe that saving the infants life is more important than punishing the mother? Absolutely. Does this mean that we should stopprosecuting all instances of child neglect because we let this one instance go? Most people would say no. There… Read more »
@ John,
Are we comparing military invasion with bigamy now? Seriously… O_o
Erin Do men hold each other accountable ? Listen to this story from my country : During WW II we were occupied by the German. Young soldiers from Austria and Germany lived in every small valley for those five years. And of course they sometime fell in love in Norwegian women and romantic relationships developed . When the war was over in 1945, these women were put in prisons camps by the government and if they married their German boyfriend ( often fiancé ) they lost citizenship and all rights to future pension as well. And before the women were… Read more »
As a man who was forced under the threat of a state sanctioned jail sentence (a.k.a. “conscription”) to learn to become the primary “shield” i.e. cannon fodder in case of a military conflict, I’m trying hard not to come up with a very cynical response to this.
Flyingkal Norwegians know today that the punishment of these young women was cruel, unfair and we are ashamed of as a nation. It is an ugly part of our history . The police that helps the Nazi to find the Jews and sent them to concentration camps ,and all the business men that earned fortunes during the war from selling to the German? What about punishing them ? Oh no, the only ones that deserved to have their hair shaved off, and be punished for the rest of their life time was women, because of SEX! It is a far… Read more »
Hi Silke, “the only ones”? As I wrote below, Quisling got executed for treachery. The first in Norway in 70 years, if my sources are correct. And you probably know better than me if there were others. Being a police officer in a country at war or under occupation is pretty similar to being a soldier in uniform. If you don’t do as you are ordered, or if you try to hide or deflect, you run the acute risk of imprisonment or even a summary execution. Yes, odds are that some of those police officers thought they were doing the… Read more »
Maybe my last post was over the top, I don’t know. But humans are social creatures who wants to belong to a community. And if your community is attacked or threatened by another community, and you make a conscious and deliberate choice to step over to the other side in the face of adversity on your own, I don’t think you should be so surprised if you weren’t allowed to freely step back later on when the shoe is on the other foot, as the saying goes. Bigamy is a crime, yes, but being on the same side in the… Read more »
Flyingkal
Norwegians are ashamed of how we treated these women and their children.
This was before the pill Flyimgkal and many children was born out of these relationships .
The children suffered terribly , because both the mother and the child was punished.
ABBA, you in Sweden must be proud of ABBA I am sure.
The female singer Anni-Frid Lyngstad
Is the child of one of these love relationship s between a Norwegian woman and a German soldier .
Her mother was wise to take her child move to Sweden. A smart move.
HI Silke
Annifrid Lyngstad was a super talented singer, yes. And she probably had a terrible childhood, even though her mother made a smart choice to move to Sweden, yes.
In my last post, I agreed that the punishment was cruel. As I wrote that, I thought about adding “especially for the children, since we don’t have the privilege to choose our parents”. I didn’t but would I have made any difference? Since your comment doesn’t even touch the subjects of community and socialization or commitment that I bring up?
Someone asked earlier for a definition of a “bad boy”.
Wouldn’t a soldier in an invasion army, representing superior force and the power and authority for summary trials, imprisonment, even execution for the slightest deed among the domestic people, be kind of THE poster boy for a bad boy?
And regarding accountability among men: Quisling got executed after the war, didn’t he? He even went down in history by lending his name to a special kind of treachery.
@ Erin, Yes. You are both needed ( and appreciated) here very much. Seriously. I mean it. I know I can be rather acerbic in my tone. I am rather blunt as a person. It is not meant to disparage you or any other women. I am just trying very very hard to get women to see our side of things. Maybe, I am not going about it the right way..I don’t know..Do you have any suggestions for me? I know it is not all fun and games for women. Women still face a lot of obstacles (and disrespect). I… Read more »
I have never felt that I enjoyed a privileged position with respect to dating and sex Jules. I know a lot of my friends who feel the same. Just because a man wants to sleep with you, doesn’t mean he values you or that you have any real ‘power’ or ‘privilege’. This minimization for the things women experience through dating and sex gets old after a while. Women do not have universal experiences any more then men do. Yet often, it seems you guys think we do. I think both genders are looking for kindness and understanding from the other.… Read more »
@ Erin “Who are you to say what the author offers’???????? How do you know the author isn’t offering love?” I don’t and neither do you or you’d be answering definitively. Why does it matter? Because the story is played as don’t worry Mr. Nice Guy just stay the course and she’ll come around. There is a significant distinction between she’ll come around because she’ll grow to learn that what you offer is actually what is important and she’ll come around because she’s partied out, she’s facing challenges (mortgage, kids, etc.), and now she wants you to help her get… Read more »
How dare a woman face challenges in life. We should all come out of high school and be ready to a life of servitude, oh sorry I mean “wife”, to men 20 or 30 years are senior right John? What are you complaining about anyway? You want to be 50 years old married to a 20 year old who will take care of you into your old age. But women can’t want men to take care of them too? That makes them selfish and that makes you superior? Please tell me what the 20 year old girl you want to… Read more »
“We should all come out of high school and be ready to a life of servitude,”
Which is exactly the point all of the men on this site have been making repeatedly. That the kind of women with such objectifying attitudes towards nice guys genuinely expect them to be waiting on the sidelines ready to serve their every selfish whim.
And for the record, former playboy men demanding a sweet housewife after fooling around with party girls are equally disgusting and equally undeserving of the people they feel completely entitled to now.
Erin
I leave this debate and turn to some of my happy friends instead.
Happy friends makes you happy. But angry hateful friends have an negative impact.
The hostility against women I see from some men here tells me this is not a place for me to be.
I turn to the warm gentle souls on this earth instead……
Take care.
@ silke,
Sorry this debate has saddened you.
My therapist told me a few years ago, “Hurting people hurt others..” She was right.
Btw,
“It is not easy to understand men that swallow the red pill and think the teaching of the red pill is the truth about women.”
What is a red pill?
@ silke,
Never mind. I Google the red pill.
Red pill vs. Blue pill…Sigh..
The Matrix 🙂
@ Silke
I hope you feel better. Maybe it will help to know that I entered the discussion trying to understand the author rather than simply jumping on statements because of having met you. Your voice is important. Please don’t stay silent long.
Silke, I hope that you come back at some point because despite the negativity about women, I think you and I are needed here.
Erin I am here on GMP because I want to understand men better. But I confess I do not understand why some men get so upset about women’s choice of lovers and boyfreindss. why is it important ? Why do they tell us women to hold other women accountable? Am I supposed to to tell Erin who she can sleep with or fall in love with ? Shall I be the gatekeeper of other women in addition to myself ? I think men are too fond of this idea that they think they should control women sexually . If they… Read more »
@ silke, “But I confess I do not understand why some men get so upset about women’s choice of lovers and boyfreindss.” If the women would stay permanently with those kinds of men, I would not give a damn. But, it always seems as if these women eventually want to come to us. Usually, they conceal their history. Why? Because they know their history does in fact matter. Old habits die hard silke. You cannot tell me a man who has slept with harlots most of his life is unaffected by having done so….He might find the sex with his… Read more »
Jules
I married young, at 23 and I married a decent nice man.
In other words , not all women live after the script you seem to think they do.
Your personal history makes you think all women behave the same way. Well we don’t.
Silke,
And not all “nice guys” that were overlooked and dismissed in their younger years, get a second chance in their later years, like the author of this article seems to think.
Why do so many people who date a lot in their younger years, rarely want to marry the same kind of person they are dating? This goes for both men and women, but men are portrayed as being deliberate about it hile women are excused as immature. Why?
And why are we non-dating people suddenly to blame for their choises, anyway?
@ silke, “Your personal history makes you think all women behave the same way” No so my dear. As I said many times, I do know there are many women out here who have not gone near a “bad boy”. Or who do not see a man as just a dispensable resource..I believe you and Erin are such women. As I look around here in America, unfortunately there are just too many women here like the author….Too many other women do not call them out for the way they treat men..Even on Huffington Post, you will see articles posted by… Read more »
Jules, women aren’t ‘harlots’ and ‘good girls’. Men are not ‘bad boys” and ‘nice guys”. Some of us are combinations of all of the above. Sometimes at different points in our life, sometimes because different people bring out different things in us. This is the basis of the problem. Stop putting people into neat little boxes instead of seeing each other as fully complex human beings. We all have our lessons to learn and sometimes we make mistakes when we are younger…over and over and over again until we get it. Its seems that you want people to be in… Read more »
Erin! Grazie for convincingly proving the theory that women have inordinate skills at employing dissociation & ignoring logic & rationality when they argue. They argue from an emotional base because that’s what they do best. Arguing with a Strong Independant Woman truly is like playing chess with a pigeon. A pigeon will respond to a good chess move by: (a) kicking over the pieces. (b) shitting on the board (c) strutting around the table like it won the game. * Not the mistakes again! It’s NOT about the genuine mistakes. I’m angry about the deliberate bad choices some women make… Read more »
“Grazie for convincingly proving the theory that women have inordinate skills at employing dissociation & ignoring logic & rationality when they argue. They argue from an emotional base because that’s what they do best.” And with that, our discussion is over. Your inability to carry on a respectful conversation without degradation about how women are somehow less than you says it all. When you can learn to play nicer in the sand box instead of throwing your own poop at anyone with a vagina, then we will be able to have a real discussion. Until then, keep flinging your poop… Read more »
🙂
@ Jules
I’ve seen it. I was once the reserved, “nice guy” at a party. The women wouldn’t give me the time of day. Then my butterfly knife fell out of my pocket. Within minutes I became the “bad boy” then the women who ignored me a few minutes prior couldn’t get enough. I couldn’t understand. They’re talking to the same guy who tried to talk to them literally minutes before. The only thing that changed was now I was dangerous.
Women like that are disgusting, plain n simple. Same type of woman who’d fall for some jailed serial killer.
Archy
This pnenomena of women that contact serial killers in prison is weird..
But even men do that , it is not only women.
Anders Behring Breivk ( a mass murdere of 77 persons + several wounded )gets proposals of marriage from both men and women .
Men also fall in love with dangerous ,cruel ,crazy people !
People who fall for people like that are disgusting, male or female.
@ Erin, “It actually is very easy for the ‘average young man” to get sexual partners. I’ve seen it happen ALL the time. Average guys are getting tons of sex.” If this is really the case Erin, then why PUA? Why the rise of porn? Why so many prostitutes/escorts…? If it was truly that easy for most guys… Personally, I can agree with you IF the average guys knew HOW to get sex. I am average looking guy but high status. Even if I were not high status, I could have all the sex I wanted if I wanted to… Read more »
Or men could stop pandering to these women’s over-inflated egos, checklists, and ridiculously high standards. Legalized sex work would be great, men wouldn’t need to put up with so much bullshit just to get some intimacy.
If men n women were willing to meet on the same level, then it would be very different….but it is NOT at all easy for a man to get laid. Especially if you’re in an area with more men than women.
@ Archy, “Legalized sex work would be great, men wouldn’t need to put up with so much bullshit just to get some intimacy.” Sex is very easy to obtain Archy….What I crave is an intimate relationship with a woman….When I say intimate, I mean: 1) Emotional intimacy 2) Intellectual intimacy 3) Social intimacy 4) Sexual intimacy Sex alone is not full intimacy for me.. I have found that women’s tastes, like men, tend to be quite broad..It all depends on why she wants a man: sex, short term relationship, fling, long term relationship, FWB, marriage, etc…. Are you looking for… Read more »
I live in an area where there are more men than women but also not much of a nightlife. Online dating also doesn’t work very well, the gender difference is more extreme there. It’s a rural area and many women move away to the cities for work/university whilst men are more likely to stay around as they can find tradesmen work here (mechanic, plumber, farmer, etc). I am still here as my current finances and health don’t make it possible to move yet. My type is someone who is attractive to me, thin to medium size, hard to say in… Read more »
I’ve read some research a while ago (sorry, no links or references) where prostitutes have been interviewed, and it seems that quite a few of their customers are not really interested in sex, but come in, pay them, and then sit down and just want to talk and maybe have a hug. So i don’t know, it seems to be about more than just legalizing sex work.
I wish I could go somewhere, talk with a woman and get a hug or cuddle. I miss cuddles the most, I’ve only ever had a few in my life. I think society would be surprised to know how many men are crying out inside who lack real human touch. Many of my male friends who are single crave it a lot but can’t get any. The whole homophobia issue has ruined many generations of men and their ability to get a close hug and feel the warmth of another man without it being awkward. Everytime I get a hug… Read more »
@ Erin, Erin, what is going on here is not “mistakes.” We are all human. As such we will make mistakes in life. What I see here, and with so many women, is deliberate behavior. This is conduct that is specifically carried out. I view this analogous to killing someone. A death has occurred. The question is: Is the death an accident or “mistake”? or is it deliberate (i.e., murder)? If it is accidental, then morally we can be sympathetic and even show empathy. HOWEVER, SINCE A LIFE WAS TAKEN THERE MUST BE SOME PUNISHMENT. THE KILLER MUST BE HELD… Read more »
@ Jules
From what I gather that’s the allure of the bad boy. He’s aggressive and pushes them to do things they wouldn’t normally do. I think that these women believe that this “justifies” their behavior. It wasn’t the real me. It was a bad influence. People do the same thing at times with alcohol. It was the alcohol talking. People need to own up to their choices.
“I think that these women believe that this “justifies” their behavior.”
It’s called the hamster wheel. It’s the sign of a group of people who cannot and absolutely refuse to take personal responsibility for their actions, hence all the focus on seeing themselves as the innocent victim in situations where they were not.
Archly Do women see themselves as victims if they sleep with a man they have desire to marry? What gave you that ide? But actually PUA and those born clever with women can seduce a woman against here will. All father’s know that and that is why some father are scared of what can happen to their 16 years old daughter if she meets the wrong guy. It is easy for you to preach about ability to self control sexually . When was you seduced by a clever person that knew how to do it ? Stop talking shit about… Read more »
Sorry typo
Women sleep with men they have no desire to marry ,
“can seduce a woman against her will” Please Silke, this is the oldest ‘cop out’ excuse in America and it’s really time to retire it! A good friend of mine confided in me about 2 years or so ago that his wife had a sexual thing going on with a co-worker. As it turns out he was a real ‘douch bag’ with a history of treating women as ‘f**k toys’ (which she fully realized going in) She asked forgiveness saying he’forced her into this against her will’. “You mean he raped her?” I asked. He said no, his wife claimed… Read more »
First, I must address your use of ‘f**k toy’.Perhaps you could describe what a f**k toy is exactly and if men can be them too? Have you ever referred to men as f**k toys to describe a story or do you reserve this title to women only? That has to be one of the most absolutely degrading terms I have ever in my life heard. You certainly could have found a way to make your point about this man’s history with women, without further degrading women by upholding disgusting, horrid, degrading names. If you wouldn’t call black people the n-word… Read more »
“You certainly could have found a way to make your point about this man’s history with women, without further degrading women by upholding disgusting, horrid, degrading names.” That’s the point of the name. Treating her as a fucktoy means he has zero care for her as a person, it’s truly objectifying. He doesn’t care if she gets pregnant, he doesn’t care if she consents or not (although some men can treat a woman as a fucktoy but fall short of raping them), he doesn’t care if she’s married or not, doesn’t care if she has feelings or not. She exists… Read more »
Stop justifying using the word “f*cktoy” against women. And no Archy, this word does not get used against men as much as it gets used against women. This is a word men created to use against women to degrade them and belittle them. It doesn’t matter if you are using it to explain how other men treat women or if your the man who is actually treating women poorly. This is very simply, don’t use gross, henious, ugly names that demean others. It’s not rocket science. “F*cktoy” is an extremely ugly word. Stop using it against women. Just because a… Read more »
@ Silke
“can seduce a woman against here will. ”
I think you’re a very nice person. Probably a more decent human being than I so I’ll take this in the best light possible. I just wanted to point out that many women who rape young boys also claim that they were seduced. They claim the sex was “against their will”. They’re not really pedophiles, but were “in love” with their victims. Can you see how some women use that excuse that I wasn’t in control to excuse their bad behavior?
John Pedophile often talk like that, and tell how they were seduced by a 6 year old. I was not thinking of cases like that, but the fact that women just like men have sexual feeling and the man ( or woman) that absolutely want sex with someone no matter what,can sometimes get it after a period of grooming and clever seduction strategy . Women can be sexually aroused against their will just like men can,and feeling can take over for women just as it can for men. It is called ” the betrayal of the body”. It is not… Read more »
@ Silke “Why do we think it is easier to have sexual self control for women than it is for men?” I’m not sure that it is. About 40% of young men reported they were coerced into sex in an APA study. 95% reported it was by women. I think part of the confusion is in the definition of rape and seduction. Much of the PUA techniques are considered at least “rapey”. Maybe “coersion” is not quite rape, but close enough for some people to call it such. Some have claimed that if sex is not “enthusiastic” it is rape.… Read more »
@ John Anderson,
“About 40% of young men reported they were coerced into sex in an APA study. 95% reported it was by women.”
Can we agree that coercion is not the same as seduction? When you coerce, you are using some psychological threat involved..Or even physical threat. Seduction is more like conditioning. You are conditioning the person in a manner that persuade them to do something…Not necessarily against their will.
“Women can be sexually aroused against their will just like men can,and feeling can take over for women just as it can for men.” She was turned on against her will but still CHOSE to have sex. He pushed past the initial no’s, which is unethical but it is possible for women to choose to have sex after first saying no. They are not children. It doesn’t always lead to feelings of guilt either. Maybe she was saying no because she wasn’t horny, but if she was originally horny she would have said yes. And by him seducing her, he’s… Read more »
” Stop talking shit about women and women’s sexuality .” In the quoted part it said These women, and I talked of a group of people. If it wasn’t clear it meant a specific group of women, not every woman. “But actually PUA and those born clever with women can seduce a woman against here will. ” How do they seduce a woman against her will? This is just infantizing women. Women are not mentally handicapped, so how can they be seduced against their will? Can women be led on? Yes, it sucks, and it’s what bad boys do to… Read more »
Jules You say “. Most men in America do NOT engage in the type of sexual behavior as you think. If most women do not even find most men attractive, just how in God’s name could most men be having so much fun? The common sense answer is we are not. Only the small percentage of men have such a glorious time with women and sex…Most men do not get the luxury of having sex with 20-30 different women before they decide to “settle down.” Only a few…”. What makes you think this is the facts ? How serious reseach… Read more »
@ silke, Hi! “If an average man in the U.S. can not find 25-30 sex partners in the years when he is 18-40 years old , then life on your continent is very different from other parts of the world .” I really do not know the data for the rest of the world. But, here in America the numbers are substantially lower than 25-30. That much I can tell you…I recalled a study a saw a few months ago about many of the changes in sexual attitudes here in the US. The link is below, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25940736 Here is the… Read more »
Jules
I have trouble with my computer.
I will be back tomorrow.
Jules
This article show the number of sexpartners at the age 25:
Boomers :11
Gen X: 10
Predictions for melleniums :9
But I spoke about the periods from age 18-40.
And by the way, boomers got married a lot earlier than people do today so at the age of 25 they were already married. Not easy to have lots is sex partners while married unless you are unfaithful..
Jules you do realize that even ‘deliberate behaviors” can be mistakes? Alcoholics deliberately drink for years before some seek help. Do alcoholics also not deserve forgiveness because they deliberately drank which led to their problem to begin with? “Mistakes” aren’t always things we do unknowingly. LIke forget to get the oil changed. Are you honestly saying you have never, in the entire history of your life, never deliberately did something you knew was going to be a mistake? I have! Making an analogy between murder and women dating bad boys seems a bit extreme and unfair. The fact that some… Read more »
@ Erin, OK Erin you make some very valid points. As for the mistakes.. No one including myself is perfect. To be human is to err. If I do something once AND realize it was dumb, then I can see going easy on myself..But, if I continually keep making the same “mistakes” then that is something else. Was it Einstein who said?, Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” So, to me it is not a mistake. It is something far worse. Accountability.. “Please tell me what kind accountability would make you happy in… Read more »
Jules
This article show the number of sexpartners at the age 25:
Boomers :11
Gen X: 10
Predictions for melleniums :9
But I spoke about the periods from age 18-40.
And by the way, boomers got married a lot earlier than people do today so at the age of 25 they were already married. Not easy to have lots is sex partners while married unless you are unfaithful..
Erin, You write “You guys are angry at women for choosing bad boys but you don’t condemn men when they treat women poorly.” Just some food for thought: What stance does “nice” guy A have to condemn guy B who treats women poorly, when it still is guy B who is out dating all the time? Who is going to listen to guy A? Guy B who sees Guy A getting turned down by every woman he asks for a date? Or the women who still chose to date Guy B? I’ve done my fair share of condemning bad behaviour,… Read more »
Kal, it’s not like my date card is all filled up. Men do the same thing women do. Sometimes we pick the more exciting, but not always the best, partner. People like their thrills. I get frustrated with this conversation because men are just as guilty of picking the exciting bad girls as women can be. This issue isn’t a dysfunction of women. It’s a dysfunction or being human and minimizing someone’s bad points because they bring a lot of fun and excitement to your life. Fun and excitement ment makes us feel alive even when it’s not the most… Read more »
Erin, Thank you for your answer. And I’d like to say that I really appreciate both you and Silke being on here, even if I come off as persona non grata from time to time, and don’t always understand your reasoning. Well, I haven’t had a date, or had a woman look at me (that I know of) for well over 10 years now. And I didn’t have my first date until late in my 20’s either! But out of the few women I have dated, most of them were either older, taller, richer, more educated, and/or somewhat “less-exercised” than… Read more »
Hi everyone. My name is Erin. I’m a woman. And I’m not perfect. I have made a lot of mistakes. I have sometimes picked the wrong guys and other times been dismissed by the right ones. That doesn’t mean I don’t deserve to be loved and have love. I’m sorry if some of you guys here think it does. I believe what seems to be hard for some men to accept is that women are human beings who sometimes make mistakes. Who need experience to learn life lessons just like men do. Unfortunately, in our society, men are given the… Read more »
Oh Erin please! I am not refrerring to mistakes. People learn from mistakes. This is covert but nevertheless iron-clad policy at work. When feminist heavyweights of the ilk of Sandberg et alia advise young women to screw as many bad boys as they can & then find a Nice Guy (TM) to father their children later, they are overlooking the fact that years of living The Bad Boy Experience is difficult to forget. FFS, just read this: “When looking for a life partner, my advice to women is date all of them: the bad boys, the cool boys, the commitment-phobic… Read more »
Oh give me a break. Yes GattoGrigio, we ARE talking about mistakes. People make mistakes over and over again until they learn. There is no person on this earth that only makes a mistake once and then is finished. There is no chef that makes a dish one time and then immediately knows how to make it perfectly next. Steve Jobs didn’t build an empire because he made a mistake once and that was it. Thomas Edison didn’t figure out how to make the light bulb on his first try or even his 50th. Men don’t get to the Superbowl… Read more »
I would not expect many women to want to date a reformed player either. Even if he made the mistake of having lots of casual sex and treating women poorly, that is a mistake many women SHOULD not be ok with. If he simply had lots of consenting and casual sex but in a positive manner, not degrading them, then wanted to settle down then that’s a different story. “It actually is very easy for the ‘average young man” to get sexual partners. I’ve seen it happen ALL the time. Average guys are getting tons of sex. So just because… Read more »
Welcome to this debate Erin. 🙂
Thanks Silke. Did you miss me? 🙂
Yes Erin ,I have missed you.
To communicate with men that has staked the red pill is not easy !
Yes !
It is not easy to understand men that swallow the red pill and think the teaching of the red pill is the truth about women.
You’ve missed the point the men are making by the distance of the Sun to the Earth, to the power of infinity. “I have sometimes picked the wrong guys and other times been dismissed by the right ones. That doesn’t mean I don’t deserve to be loved and have love. I’m sorry if some of you guys here think it does. ” Did you purposely go after the bad ones because they were bad though? Analogy in the most extreme form. 2 guys, 1 is a known serial rapist torturer Ted Bundy meets Hitler devil, the other is a typically… Read more »
@ Erin Actually a lot of guys who had problems with this article provided quotes pointing out exactly where the problem stems from. It certainly seems like financial stability / means (referencing a mortgage) is a concern. Wanting someone to raise her children possibly being another. So far the author has offered no clarification. Being limited to 900 – 1000 words may impact what she says in the article, but surely she could comment. When you’re looking for marriage, I believe that financial considerations are important. Maybe men don’t view them as such because we’ve been condition to expect to… Read more »
John, don’t you pretty much universally advocate for men picking women based on looks and even age regularly? Don’t you often talk about how you will marry someone significantly younger than yourself? Haven’t you asked me given a choice between the hot girl that’s nice and the average girl that’s nice, why wouldn’t the man pick the hot one? Now you take issue because the woman in the article wants someone who has financial stability and wants a man who will be involved with her children?
@ Erin “Don’t you often talk about how you will marry someone significantly younger than yourself?” If I get married, I probably will. She’d also more than likely be in the best relationship she has ever been in all things considered. You think the age difference will translate into a significant power difference then you don’t know Filipinas. “Haven’t you asked me given a choice between the hot girl that’s nice and the average girl that’s nice, why wouldn’t the man pick the hot one?” Sure, why wouldn’t he all other things being equal (both being kind), pick the hot… Read more »
I think the age difference speaks to how you choose to value women vs how you choose to value yourself ‘over’ women. And I think that’s the way you like it because you infact do enjoy the power you ‘believe’ it gives you over women and over your relationships. You’re not seeking a younger partner because you want ‘equality’. The only reason I offer this information is because you continue to tell me what I think and I’d rather things be in my words, not yours. Who are you to say what the author offers’???????? How do you know the… Read more »
@ Erin So is love the standard now? So if a 40 year old guy bags a 20 year old woman all’s good in the hood because she went for him and they were happy for a time? Seems you put a lot more weight on external factors when men talk about relationships. Shouldn’t the standard be whether they’re happy? You speak of things you don’t know so you find it easier to speak for both people rather than listen. If I were to marry and it were to be “arraigned” there are several things that will more than likely… Read more »
John – you have a very idealized version of what you believe will play out.In your hearts of hearts, do you really believe that young 20 year old women dream about marrying 40+ year old men? I have read bits and pieces here about Asian culture and I know for a fact young Asian women, in growing numbers, are tired of a culture that places them as second class citizens. They aren’t looking to a old man’s young wife that will be forced to have to take care of him like he is more her grandpa than her husband (nice… Read more »
I have a friend who has a similar story to you. She dated bad boys who were physically abusive. She had a child by one of these men. She would later meet and marry a nice guy who treated her with kindness and raises her child as his own. The way she talks about him you can tell she loves him dearly and they have two children together. Her priorities changed later in her life because she found out what was really important, kindness. I think that’s what was missing in your story. Why the priorities changed and so people… Read more »
@ john Anderson,
“This woman…”
Which woman?
I was referring to my friend, Veronica. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if she initially picked him for stability, being a good father, etc. That never came up in our conversation. What was clear was that she loved him because of his character. People’s priorities can change. Veronica’s definitely did after the birth of her child. That doesn’t make a good person or a good partner. What’s actually important to people; what they desire, how they value a person, can also change. This also doesn’t make you a good partner. It’s how those values change that determines it. The… Read more »
@ John Anderson, OK. I follow you. Thanks. Yes, John people do change indeed. Some more so than others. What I find most troubling is the unapologetic tenor of this piece. “I once could not stand you.” No, hey I am sorry. I was wrong. Nope!!! It’s more like, “Hey my life has changed now so I now see value in you turds.” And the Mr. Nice Guys of the world should be as happy as a pig in shit! It just wreaks of narcissism to me. But, the guy she picked is an ex Mr. Thrill…So, I maybe they… Read more »
“She dated bad boys who were physically abusive. ” I know a lot of abused women, they aren’t dating guys BECAUSE they are abusive though. They weren’t attracted to bad boys but often abusive men can be very charming and seem really nice. One of the most heavily abused women I know of, her partner came across as a shy but sweet kinda charming guy. I am good at judging character but even I was fooled by him, and I have met other very abusive men who I could judge as bad within minutes of meeting them, even as a… Read more »
@ Archy, Remember the recent piece here on GMP written by the twin sisters on why they don’t do nice guys? I cannot find the piece. They EXPLICITY stated they knew these other guys (bad boys incl) were NOT dating and relationship material. They were simply along for the ride. They did not want to have to deal with any emotional breakups, etc…. So, I think a lot of women clearly do know..Obviously, I do not think any women (unless they have some serious emotional or psychological issues) seek out abusive relationships. So, I do think many, if not most,… Read more »
Jules I am confused . Can you give a good definition of bad boy ? Or describe them ? The men I have known ,that I would describe as bad boys, Don Juan’s , womenizers etc they all had emotional issues , if they married the marriage did not last. They were only good at starting relationships , not at making it last and develop . I do not know what happens to them as they age ,and grow old. Will they still get everything they want from women,compared with married men at the sa,e age when they are old?… Read more »
I don’t think she is unattractive. Like I said, I would have casual sex with such a woman on my own terms. Not a relationship however.
Uh, no thanks. I might find a use for you in casual sex, but nothing beyond that. You say that you have matured, but people rarely change that much. I don’t think I have ever given a second chance to such a person outside of casual sex, and even then only on my terms.
I’m also not buying into the idea that you want me suddenly, now that you have all this baggage. Sounds like a really bum deal if you ask me, and I have done my part to educate other men about entering into such relationships.
Sheryl Sandberg………. where are you when we REALLY need you?
And Michelle Langley stop ROFL!
And you know what, some women don’t change even when they get older and older.
It’s Alpha Fux, Beta Bucks, Alpha Fux Redux, Beta Bux Redux and rinse & repeat ad nauseum
e.g.
http://madgew-musings.blogspot.com.au/2014/06/online-dating-why.html