Dude, Don’t ‘Neg’

What’s less authentic than entering into a ‘spontaneous’ social interaction with a script? Hugo Schwyzer argues that ‘negging’ isn’t cool.

Maybe you’ve heard a line like this at a party or in a bar, from a man to a woman he barely knows:

“You have a pretty face, but you’d be even prettier if you’d lose the bangs.”

Chances are, unless it’s coming from a gay hairstylist trolling for clients, that you’ve just witnessed a “neg-hit,” the basic tactic in “negging.”

If there’s one technique in the pick-up artist (PUA) repertoire about which I hear more often than anything else, it’s “negging.” The urban dictionary helpfully defines negging as “the offering of low-grade insults meant to undermine the self-confidence of a woman so she might be more vulnerable to your advances.” The idea is simple: women, particularly beautiful ones, are so accustomed to compliments that they’ve grown immune to their power. But make a “hot” woman think you don’t think she’s all that, and she’ll be eating out of your hand. Or so the peddlers of seduction wisdom would have their customers believe.

Though I’m suspicious of most of what the professional PUAs are selling, I do appreciate that they’re meeting a very real need. We live in a culture where heterosexual men are still frequently expected to be the initiators, to make the first move. For many men who lack the requisite self-confidence and self-esteem to approach a woman in a way that won’t annoy or unnerve her, the PUAs teach valuable techniques. Some of those techniques are solid common sense; others are soaked in misogyny. Some men who pay significant sums to be coached in “game” are happy with the results, some aren’t. But almost all are, at one point or another, taught to “neg.”

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The problem with negging (whether it’s done as part of formal PUA technique or not) is that it’s rooted in men’s suspicion that too many women think too highly of themselves. Listen to PUAs and Men’s Rights Activists (MRAs), and you’ll hear a familiar litany: most women expect too much. Blame romance novels or television shows, pop psychology or feminism (the MRAs are especially fond of pinning all their woes on the last of these), but 21st century American women are too demanding—or so these lads claim. They want hot bods and fat wallets and empathy, like some perfect fusion of Johnny Depp, Mark Zuckerberg, and Dr. Drew.

So the “neggers” believe that the only way to combat women’s inflated sense of self-worth and expectation is to tear down their self-esteem. They operate on the cruel calculation that the less a woman believes she deserves, the more likely she is to “settle” for the likes of the game-playing PUA. Certainly, there’s a ton of anecdotal evidence to support the hypothesis that women’s low self-esteem is connected to a willingness to sleep with (and remain in relationships with) men who will treat them badly.

In their own defense, PUAs who neg claim that all they’re really trying to do is differentiate themselves from the legions of men who use and abuse compliments. Plenty of women have experience being on the receiving end of the cheesy flattery that is the standard stuff of traditional opening lines. “Am I in heaven? Because I’m looking at an angel” is likely to elicit an eye-roll and a snort.

The insincerity of these sorts of compliments is obvious, and as a result, their effectiveness is limited at best. The PUAs argue that by negging, they’re offering a genuinely honest alternative to the usual hokum of the bar scene. No woman really is an angel, after all; expressing limited, critical interest through a quick neg-hit (a one-line backhanded compliment) will be perceived, they hope, as more authentic. It works in part because of women’s insecurity, but it also works because effective negging is rooted in a tiny kernel of truth. (The opening example about a woman’s bangs only works if the woman actually has hair covering her forehead.)

The true effectiveness of this game, of course, lies in its subtle suggestion that the PUA has taken the time to notice the woman he’s negging. Many women—perhaps particularly stereotypically attractive women—have plenty of experience being stared at by men. They have less experience of feeling seen. The mixture of compliment and insult suggests both the absence of desperation (an admittedly attractive quality) and at least a glimmer of interest (otherwise, why would the negger speak up in the first place.). Used skillfully, there’s little question that negging can work.

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Bullying and threats of violence can also get guys what they want. We have to do more than ask “what works,” we need to ask “is it worth using?” As tempting as it can be to buy into the myth that “women expect too much” and deserve to be taken down a peg, the reality is that most women don’t expect a fusion of Brad Pitt and Deepak Chopra. While there certainly are some women who have grossly unrealistic assumptions about what a relationship with a man can and should provide, men also tend to exaggerate the loftiness of women’s expectations. Wanting a guy to be well-groomed and equipped with a basic vocabulary for his own emotional terrain are not unreasonable desires. In most cases, the problem isn’t women expecting too much: it’s men offering too little.

But if the PUAs are wrong to try and work to reduce both women’s self-esteem and their expectations, they’re right to remind all of us that compliments grow stale and meaningless from overuse. They are right as well to encourage men not merely to stare but to take notice. And they are right that what we’re all hungry for is greater authenticity. Except, what’s less authentic than entering into a “spontaneous” social interaction with a script, feigning a mix of candor and lack of interest in the hopes of sparking curiosity and desire? Guys can do better than that.

—photo vagueonthehow/Flickr

About Hugo Schwyzer

Hugo Schwyzer has taught history and gender studies at Pasadena City College since 1993, where he developed the college's first courses on Men and Masculinity and Beauty and Body Image. He serves as co-director of the Perfectly Unperfected Project, a campaign to transform young people's attitudes around body image and fashion. Hugo lives with his wife, daughter, and six chinchillas in Los Angeles. Hugo blogs at his website

Comments

  1. The ongoing GMP obsession with male game that ignores the fact that female game is not much different but is more widely practised.

    My understanding of the NEG is that its not designed to attack the self esteem at all, the purpose is to tease and demonstrate that you are “higher status” (the ground that women usually occupy as the choosers and more often deft users of game) by not taking the role of the much more common “beta male” sycophant, Hugo.

    Tell me Hugo, does the idea of your betters nagging men or behaving in ways intended to negatively effect the self esteem of men concern you too?

    This bits funny ..

    “For many men who lack the requisite self-confidence and self-esteem to approach a woman in a way that won’t annoy or unnerve her”

    where you simultaneously pedestalise women, set the gender roles up in the traditional way, attack the self esteem of men that lack confidence and self esteem and endorse “creep shaming” and irrational fear of men..

    • Hey up, you will quickly come to see that there is a type of feminism that is really just White Knighting chivalry.

      Here’s a woman’s description of this approach:
      http://www.avoiceformen.com/2011/03/16/the-one-good-man/

      • Jim,

        whats really funny to me is the obliviousness to the fact that Hugo and TGMP take on the role of the father with the shotgun protecting his daughters from the men that can charm their way into their panties (I thought that was patriarchal oppression?) and the supposedly strong, independent, sex positive feminist women that cheer on this traditional paternalism and white knighting.

  2. Negging is a disgusting behavior. It entirely reliant on emotional manipulation intended to convince someone that they should sleep with another. I know a man who uses this tactic with women, and the only women who will give him any attention are 18-year-olds, fresh out of high school, who don’t know any better. Of course, 6 or so months later, they dump him because he’s a world-class manipulating, emotionally abusive ass.

    If negging is something you enjoy, I will assume you are an abusive person. There is no other reason anyone would find “negging” to be an acceptable way to approach a person.

    • Catullus says:

      I have to wonder if guys who think negging works are the sort of guys who get their notions of science from the Professor on “Gilligan’s Island.”

      • mythago says:

        Of course negging works. What PUAs call “negging” (and what others call “typecasting”, cf. The Gift of Fear) is a predatory social strategy, and as such works by manipulating people into certain desired reactions.

        And that, not men’s expectations of women, is really the problem with negging. Its use in the PUA community may well stem from the attitude that women are too uppity and there’s a moral pleasure in knocking them down a peg; but that’s not why it works.

        • The majority of social strategies work by manipulating people into certain desired reactions. Hugo’s assertion that men essentially are not good enough for women is an excellent example of that. It is a very cruel thing to say to people with low self-esteem, as is implying that they are predators. However, it does work very well at getting them angry and further damaging what little self-confidence or esteem they have left. The latter strikes actually me as predatory and malicious. Negging strikes me as underhanded.

          • Catullus says:

            Precisely. Negging is underhanded. That’s why it’s given a pejorative adjective like ‘manipulative’ and being politely straight-forward is not. As for the idea that Hugo is saying men aren’t good enough for women, this isn’t one of those occasions. Pointing out some men are insufficient is hardly a takedown of us as a gender.

            • All manipulation is not necessarily negative. After all, being straight-forward is another way of manipulating people into liking you by being painfully honest. I think the only reason for the pejorative adjective is because of the sex that uses negging. If the other sex did it (like playing hard to get), I do not think anyone would complain.

              As for your defense of Hugo, I suppose one could argue that he is not saying men are not good enough for women, except for the part where he stated, “In most cases, the problem isn’t women expecting too much: it’s men offering too little.” That sounds a lot like men — not some men, but men in general — are not good enough for women.

      • Got any Lost in Space references queued up too?

    • Here come the feminists that have less of an idea about game than TGMP resident “experts” with the false allegations of abuse.

    • Congrats, you really showed that straw man what he had coming!

      I’ve occasionally checked in on the seduction community for a long time and the author is describing an ancient , outmoded ploy that was only encouraged in rare situations (i.e. when first talking to model-types) and was more of a playful mocking than an insult anyway. If you think a guy could say something truly hurtful within minutes of meeting a women (the context of the classic “neg”) and have any success, you probably have more to learn about women than the saps on PUA forums.

  3. The urban dictionary helpfully defines negging as “the offering of low-grade insults meant to undermine the self-confidence of a woman so she might be more vulnerable to your advances.”

    The Urban Dictionary? Really? Why did you not quote directly from a PUA site? It is their concept, so would they not be the authorities on what “negging” means?

    Out of curiosity, I visited a couple of sites. Pualingo defines negging as “a backhanded compliment or similar comment that is used to bring hot women down a notch”. The site goes on to state, “It is important to note that a neg hit is not an insult. Rather, it is an often humorous comment used to communicate active disinterest. New guys often make the mistake of insulting women, or being mean to them. That is not the point of negs, and they should never be used to make women feel bad about themselves.” It also listed examples, such as “Your nose wiggles when you talk! … It’s so cute! … Look at it! There it goes again!” and “You have really big ears, don’t worry, I think its cute, kind of like a bunny”.

    Several other sites listed the similar definitions, so it appears PUAs define negging completely different than the article suggests.

    • Well what would they know about a concept they invented themselves? This tactic of directly denying what people say about thier own experiences is standard practice for Hugo. He has done it here, and he did it inan article in the Guardian on CiF. AllyF called him on it and called it intolerable. Good call. Hasn’t helped much apparently.

    • Catullus says:

      I love insults myself, but “Lose the bangs” doesn’t sound like a compliment to me. By the way, is there some point to bringing hot women down a notch? Does it make them more salacious when one wanks to mental images of them later?

      • Catullus

        Your reaction is one in response to the OP’s straw man version of what it a neg is. Jacobtk has published a more accurate definition a few post above.

    • Sorry but those examples just seem incredible stupid to me. They aren’t insulting, they are just idiotic. But hey, go for it, what do I know.

  4. Good column, I suppose, but you’d have to be a pretty broken person to not know on some level that this kind of creepy manipulation is wrong. What’s next, 800 words on why punching people in the face to get what you want isn’t OK?

    (see the two justifications so far: “Hey up” with “she did it too!” and Jacobtk with “it’s not an insult, it’s more a more clever and subtle form of manipulation than that!”)

    • It is a justification; it is a clarification. The definition Hugo presented is wrong. That is not what PUAs actually believe or practice. If Hugo views negging as insulting women, he is more than welcome to do so. However, he should also accurately state how PUAs define the theory. Otherwise he risks creating a false impression of negging that misleads his readers.

      • mythago says:

        But in your earlier comment, you note that PUAs do in fact treat negging as “bringing hot women down a notch”.

        • Yes, it does, the same way that ignoring a wealthy person’s expensive merchandise or a professor’s degrees in whatever brings them down a notch. It sends the message that you do not take them as important or as serious as they take themselves. That is a little different than insulting them.

          • Why do you assume that an attractive woman is stuck up or takes herself too seriously? “Bringing her down a notch” kind of implies that you think attractive women must be stuck up bitches who should be put in their place.

            Luckily, as I said in another comment, I think women are smart enough to figure out fairly quickly that “negging” is just a technique for hitting on them. It’s the 2000’s version of “hey baby what’s your sign.”

            • Why do you assume that an attractive woman is stuck up or takes herself too seriously?

              I made no such assumptions. I simply corrected Hugo’s misleading definition. That said, many attractive women have massive egos and are not afraid to give off the “you’re not good enough for me” or “I’m too good for you” vibe. I make no effort to court women at all, yet I have noticed that my disinterest in attractive women bugs the crap out of them, and about half the time results in them flirting with me. If you are used to getting attention, when you do not get attention it gets your attention. That is my understanding of the purpose of negging.

              Luckily, as I said in another comment, I think women are smart enough to figure out fairly quickly that “negging” is just a technique for hitting on them.

              I suspect most people would catch that. However, it does not matter whether women know they are being hit on. What matters is whether it works. From what I can tell, it works very well precisely because it is so disarming.

            • Maybe it’s not that they think they are too good for you; maybe they are just tired of constantly being pestered. They’ve learned if they are nice, guys won’t leave them alone and they will be stuck in an awkward conversations 24-7 when they are just trying to go about their lives. Yes, they may be overlooking really great guys that way but if a woman is constantly being approached, there is no way she can spend time getting to know every single guy who talks to her. That is really sexist of you to assume that if a woman isn’t instantly I to you, it’s all about her massive ego. If I said that men have massive egos I’d have guys on this board jumping up and down about my misandry.

            • That is really sexist of you to assume that if a woman isn’t instantly I to you, it’s all about her massive ego.

              It would be if I stated that or if I cared what attractive women think of me. But I did not and do not. I stated, “many attractive women have massive egos and are not afraid to give off the ‘you’re not good enough for me’ or ‘I’m too good for you’ vibe”. If you disagree, fine. That does not make my statement any less true, and that statement also applies to attractive men.

              As for attractive women getting tired of being pestered, that is not a good excuse for crushing someone’s self-esteem, particularly someone who is being sincere. Just as it only took once for you to get put off by negging, it only takes once for men to get put off by an insensitive rejection.

            • What is a “sensitive rejection”? If I say in absolutely the nicest way possible, “I’m sorry but I am not attracted to you and I don’t want to see you” — that’s still going to hurt. It may crush a guy’s self esteem no matter what the woman does. There is just no way around it. Actually a lot of women do feel bad and don’t want to hurt a guy’s feelings, but they end up being too indirect, and then men accuse them of being flakey or inconsistent.

            • It appears you answered you own question.

              Regarding your other point, I suspect some women do want to spare men’s feelings. However, I also suspect some women do not care about men’s feelings and that some intentionally hurt men’s feelings . There is no way for men to tell which is which, and there is certainly no reason why a man who constantly gets rejected will assume every woman tried to let him down easy.

              Here is a suggestion that I think might help feminists when discussing this topic: empathize with these men. That is THE key thing that so few feminists do. Most men know what it is like to receive benign rejection. We all know what it is like not to get chosen. Few women know what it is like to face public rejection, to literally put yourself out there and do EVERYTHING and then wait to be judged. It is not easy. This flippant way of treating men like undeserving trash because they have the misfortune of not being good at approaching people does not help matters. Honestly, you are actually making it worse by implying that those men deserve to be alone.

            • I do empathize with men. It is not fun to be rejected. But I’ve been in situations where I may have been a little curt with a guy because he was approaching me in context where I was busy, occupied with something else or I just didn’t feel like talking to him at that particular moment, or I felt uncomfortable. For example, I remember a guy on the bus made small talk for 2 minutes then asked me to go have a drink with him and I said no because he was a complete stranger and I felt cornered (the bus was crowded). He tried to talk me into it and finally I got irritated and told him to leave me alone. He seemed upset and I feel bad if he went away feeling like he was cruelly rejected but he really didn’t leave me any choice in that situation. He seemed like a reasonable guy but he moved too fast and was pestering me. If he’d just asked for my phone number then called me later for coffee I might have said yes. Im not going to jump off the bus and go have a drink right that second. Did he have poor social skills? Yes. Is that my fault? No. I did not intentionally hurt his feelings.

              Maybe you can give me some ideas about how I could handle a situation like that better. It was very awkward and I did actually regret getting somewhat bitchy with him.

  5. Reject TGMP’s silly campaign against male game and the snake oil salesman “experts” that are brought in to help, ironically, they seem to be as bad as some of the snake oil salesmen that are selling game.

    TGMP readers, you should go to more reliable sources..

    “- Game is not shiny pedants and cheesy pickup lines
    – Game is not solely useful for finding one-night stands in clubs
    – Game is not being an asshole, lying to girls, acting “fake”
    – Game is not irrelevant to men in long term relationships

    Game is actually incredibly simple. It’s just the study of how your behaviour affects women. Are you interested in women? Yes? Than you’re interested in Game. It doesn’t matter if you want to rack up notches, or keep your wife of 15 years sweet, fit and sexually available – learn game, and your life will get a whole lot easier.”
    http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/02/11/how-to-learn-game-in-one-week/

  6. Here is the problem… There are so many women and feminist men who are trying to teach men how to pick up women “ethically” but none of these suggestions work. I’m one of the targets for this sort of thing, I’m shy, sensitive, quiet, and probably far too passive since I have a tendency to let people walk all over me. Why do people like me go spend money for the PUA stuff and turn into these “misogynist monsters”? Because we’re tired of being alone, nothing has worked, and we want results. Do the PUA folks prey on men who lack self-confidence? Sure, some of them. But there’s no effective ethical advice to be found. I’ll use myself as an example. I’m 22, I’ve never been on a date, and I really have no self confidence. I probably should have self confidence — I do have a lot of things going for me — but I definitely have flaws. I have gynecomastia (breast tissue in men) which cannot be addressed through surgery due to another issue, and I had pretty bad acne as a teenager which has pretty much cleared up but there is a little scarring left over. With that said, I’m tall, I have very attractive facial features, I am in excellent physical shape, I am a classically trained musician, I have my own apartment, I own my own business, and I can cook.

    Unfortunately, I’ve never had a woman respond favorably to me in person. I have trouble thinking of things to say. If I give a woman a genuine compliment, I’ll get a response like, “thanks” and then I have no idea where to go from there. Everyone is always saying, “be authentic” but if I’m authentic I’m really emotional, and sensitive, and effeminate. I’ve had a very traumatizing life; my entire childhood is one painful memory after another.

    So what sort of advice is there for me? How do I get help to ethically pick up a woman who will hopefully like me? Do I want sex? Like you wouldn’t believe. But, I also want someone to hug and be hugged by, someone to hold hands with, someone to talk to, someone to kiss, someone to snuggle with, someone I can trust. The only advice I ever hear from the “ethical crowd” is get self confidence or keep trying or your time will come or wait for a girl to come to you. Unfortunately, none of this is actionable or useful. I have yet to do any of the unsavory PUA stuff because I adhere to such a strict code of ethical integrity that I am unable to do something that I can even perceive as unethical. So much so that it is often to my own detriment.

    • Look at it this way: Suppose a woman came to talk to you, and said something like

      “Wow, you’re actually not bad loking at all! Shame about the manboobs, though.”

      That would be nasty and cruel, wouldn’t it? That’s the trouble with PUA crap. No one, and especially women, don’t need any more hostility in their lives.

      “I have trouble thinking of things to say. If I give a woman a genuine compliment, I’ll get a response like, “thanks” and then I have no idea where to go from there.”

      How about asking her something about herself? Maybe telling her about your work as a musician, talking about some recent news item, something. Yeah, it’s probably often going to be kind of awkward for both of you. But that’s how the human mating dance goes. It’s not easier for any of us.

      • That isn’t playful, that is actually factually cruel. Especially women don’t need more hostility in their lives? You couldn’t just leave it at no one? Also, I’m not sure how you can say it isn’t easier for anyone when it is certainly easier for almost everyone. ESPECIALLY women. I’m sorry, but having to put yourself out there to get rejected and initiate is much harder than not having to do so.

        • I don’t know how you can say things are “easier” for women. I agree the dating scene is incredibly cruel but it is cruel to women as well. The only women who have is easy (maybe*) are the minority of women who are considered “hot.” If you are a woman who is too intelligent, too nerdy, a little overweight, big nose or whatever, you will just as scorned and rejected as any so-called “beta male.”

          *I don’t know if things are so easy for hot women, either. Some of the women who are “hot” spend an inordinate amount of time and energy on their appearance because of deep insecurity, eating disorders and so on.

          • I can say things are easier for women because in 9 out of 10 instances, the man is the one who initiates. He makes the approach. You don’t have to be hot to have a man approach you — you might have to be hot if you want a gorgeous, wealthy, brilliant, funny man to approach you — but even the “too intelligent, too nerdy, a little overweight, big nose, whatever” woman WILL get approached by men. They won’t get approached as much as the hot women but that still doesn’t change the fact that the man has to initiate almost every single time which is much harder than waiting for them to come to you.

          • Well I think you are wrong about that. Women who aren’t perceived as f*ckable are invisible; they rarely if ever get approached. Men don’t even see them; it’s like they don’t exist. And a woman who is less attractive knows she can’t initiate because unattractive women who want sex or relationships are perceived as comically desperate or slutty.

            • How many women though are truly at that level? I’d wager that number is fairly close to zero. Regardless of how unattractive, heavy, whatever the woman is, there are men who are going to approach her. If a woman is significantly overweight, she won’t be approached very often and probably not by the quality of man she dreams of, but she is definitely going to get overweight men approaching her.

            • Lindsey says:

              This just isn’t true. There are a lot of women who struggle just like you do. There are a lot of women who don’t get asked out on dates. Even overweight men like thin/average girls. As I mentioned before, I have a friend that is in a situation similar to yours and she’s not obese by any means. It’s been literally years since she’s been asked on a date and she’s one of the most social, personable people that I know. It’s baffling to me. Dating is difficult for both genders.

            • AlekNovy says:

              Susan, even though I disagree with most of CJ’s negativity, and some of the stuff he says is negative exaggerations – he did get this one right.

              Even an overweight, shy, non-social and uncommunicative woman will still get asked out by overweight guys.

              The only women I know who get asked out less often than once a year, are women who are hermits and don’t leave the house.

              As a woman, one literally has to not leave the house and refuse to go to any social event ever – to literally have no love-life or love-offers.

              Put more simply, a woman has to be in the bottom 2% to have no offfers at all.
              A man has to be in the top 2% to get frequent offers.

              Now personally I believe its easy to become one of the top 2%, because so few men know how – its easy, just socialize, be charismatic and talk to everyone. Personally I’ve gone from being the creepy guy to being the guy women approach and ask out – so I’ve run the full gamut.

            • AlekNovy says:

              Susan said:

              “And a woman who is less attractive knows she can’t initiate because unattractive women who want sex or relationships are perceived as comically desperate or slutty.”

              Isn’t that a universal issue? I don’t see how its a female issue. A man who’s not attractive in the ways women find attractive “can’t initiate” because he’ll be labelled a creep.

              Trust me, being labeled a potential serial killer is much worse than being labeled desperate or needy.

              Also, those women aren’t in a double-bind. The guy is told he’s a loser if he’s not pursuing women, but told he’s a creep if he does.

      • Lindsey says:

        Men and women both face challenges in dating. The best thing to do is to work on reducing those challenges, rather than arguing over who has it worse.

        CJ, it sounds like you’re really having a tough time. I definitely sympathize with you. I have a friend that sounds like the female version of you and the situation is tough on her, too. I don’t agree with PUAs, but I understand how you could be drawn to them. If your self esteem is the issue, you should focus on that, rather than on women. Therapy may be helpful, or maybe just talking about with some friends. Having a painful childhood is so hard on a person and you don’t have to go it alone.

        From your post, it really sounds like you have a lot going for you. You seem like a nice guy and, if I knew you, I would personally volunteer to be your wing woman.

        • Having a tough time would be an understatement. Unfortunately, some of my self esteem issues cannot be addressed (the gynecomastia to to specific) and another big self esteem issue is the lack of being able to get a date. Nothing savages a man’s self esteem like constant failure to get a date/girlfriend.

          The only things left really are making more money — something I’m always focusing on — and getting in better shape even though I’m already in great shape. I tried the focus on me and let the women come as they will from the age of 19 to 21 and that didn’t work at all… instead of getting rejected I got neither rejected nor approached.

          As for therapy… I’ve already tried that multiple times and it really isn’t too helpful. The hardest part about having such a terrible childhood is that it is a lose/lose/lose situation with women. Even simple questions are dangerous territory for me which leaves me with three options. 1. I can play coy and not answer the question (which usually results in the woman complaining how I’m not forthright). 2. I can lie, which doesn’t really form the foundation of honest discourse. 3. I can tell the truth and then watch as they try to extricate themselves without looking like they’re put off by the reality of the situation. #3 is the worst because it isn’t like I had control over any of those things, and yet I am the one who suffers for them (as if I haven’t already suffered enough because I experienced them).

          All the basic “lets get to know each other” questions are a minefield of danger for me. I typically just resort to lying these days, but it can be a challenge to keep things straight (especially when drinking) and one lie builds on another and makes my already poor conversational skills markedly worse.

          • Lindsey says:

            I completely agree that not having a person to date would be a huge blow to anyone’s self esteem. Anyone in your shoes would feel like you do. Therapy is more helpful to some than others – I think that it depends on the therapist. Try a bunch of therapists with different styles and if it doesn’t work, ditch it. I honestly think that a compassionate friend that knows you well can work just as well in some situations.

            You don’t owe anyone your life history. If you need to tell a white lie here or there, it’s no one’s business but yours. If you end up dating a girl, she should be able to understand why you felt the need to not reveal your past to someone you barely knew. As long as you don’t let the deception continue on for too long, I don’t think that it should be too big of an issue. You can also try to steer the conversation away from your past – you’re a 22 year old man that has a lot of really interesting hobbies. It would also be well within your rights to say something vague like “To be honest, my childhood wasn’t that great. I’d rather talk about (insert topic here).” Most people will understand.

    • CJ, reading your posts, it sounds like you might struggle with your confidence on occasion. That may be what some women pick up on. Plenty of women will dismiss you if you do not fit the stereotypical perfect man. However, sometimes women do not respond to your advances because those advances may not be backed by confidence. That is one thing that PUAs definitely get right: feeling good about yourself helps more than anything else.

      It is true that approaching someone is much harder than waiting to be approached. However, it is not as hard as you think it is. The worst that will happen are some insults. Most of the time women will brush you off. That stings, but the way they respond to you says more about their character than yours. So do not let that get to you. I find that the men who are most successful with women are confident and/or do not worry about rejection. If it happens it happens, and if it does not it does not.

      • On occasion would be quite the understatement. I just find it hard to be confident approaching women when every single one has ruthlessly rejected me. It isn’t like I haven’t tried approaching a good amount of women — I’ve approached a lot — and people say it gets easier, but it only gets harder for me.

        I’d probably feel a little better if I weren’t 0-59 and the fact that I remember everything is even worse because I remember every rejection in vivid detail. Obviously, not letting rejection get to me and not worrying about it is the goal but, like everything, it is easier said than done and how to not let rejection get to me… that’s something I have never found and have never been told.

        • CJ, there is no easy way to let rejection not bother you. Rejection hurts. It makes men feel unworthy and undeserving of partnership, attention, opportunity, and love. That should be a basic thing that everyone would agree on, but biased political views have a way of sidestepping people’s emotional experiences.

          You cannot avoid getting hurt, but you can control how much you let rejection hurt you. Consider it this way: before you approached the woman you had no date. After you got rejected, you still had no date. Were you devastated before you approached her? No. Were you an unlikable person? No. Were you uninteresting? No. Were you untalented? No. So essentially nothing has changed. You are no worse off than you were before, and you certainly are no worse a person than you were before (contrary to the some of the opinions expressed above).

          As a trained musician you have probably experienced rejection if someone did not like your playing. Do you let that determine whether you will keep playing? Probably not, right? The same logic applies to approaching women. Likewise, when you play classical music your confidence comes through the music. Even if someone dislikes your playing, if you put everything you had into it, you probably will not let that one person’s rejection shake your desire to play. The same logic applies with getting rejected by women.

          Again, there is no easy way to cope with rejection. However, most of us experience enough of it to understand that it is not the end of the world. The “be yourself” advice is not the best advice, but it is good advice to the extent that you ought to be true to yourself and feel good about yourself. That might make you more successful in your approached, but it will definitely help you deal with rejection. It is a process, not an overnight thing.

    • Look, you have my sympathy. I was in the same boat at 22, and a few years beyond that. It’s not fun. But it’s also not an excuse to be a jerk, and while it’s an unfortunate circumstance, it’s not any woman’s fault, and to treat and individual woman, or women as a group, as if it is, makes you kind of a jerk. All kind of jerky

      “The only advice I ever hear from the “ethical crowd” is get self confidence or keep trying or your time will come or wait for a girl to come to you. Unfortunately, none of this is actionable or useful.”

      Actually, it’s very good advice. The reason it’s not actionable is that you’re not in a place to figure out how to make it work for you. I sincerely hope you get there before you become too bitter or hateful for it to matter. PUA BS will accerate the latter process, while retarding the former, even if you do manage to get laid out of it.

      • I’m not a jerk, I haven’t demonstrated any jerkiness, and the fact that you come out and suggest that I am some how a jerk, is, in fact, demonstrative of you being an a-hole.

        How is advice that is not actionable useful? I’m just curious how something that cannot actually be used can be useful?

      • Lindsey says:

        Hey djw, from CJ’s post, it sounded like he tends to focus on the more helpful aspects of PUA (social skills, confidence building, etc.). He never mentions the more offensive aspects, like treating women as numbers or negging – in fact, he even mentions his experience giving women compliments. I agree that a small portion of guys will use their personal struggles as an excuse to treat women badly, but I don’t think that that’s what CJ is doing.

        CJ, I agree with djw that the advice actually is good advice. The problem is that the people who give the advice tend to not remember their audience. Telling someone who has self-esteem issues to “have confidence” isn’t going to be super helpful. Understanding what needs to improve and how to improve it are two different things.

        I think that the problem is that addressing the actual, underlying problems, such as your lack of confidence, is something that is very personal to you. Someone who doesn’t know you probably can’t give you advice that would actually be helpful. PUA advice may be more helpful for right now, but it’s generic and a type of band-aid. It’s not going to help you with any of the underlying causes.

        That being said, I do think that people who are shy can get decent advice for how to be more comfortable in conversation. For example, because music is one of your interests, it would benefit you to try to meet people through that. If you engage someone in a conversation about music, a compliment like, “Oh you have good taste!” would be much easier to follow up than “nice shoes”. Try to gear your compliments toward something that you are comfortable talking about. You sound athletic, so talking about that would probably be good, too. Most women have at least one physical hobby. Even if you like weight lifting and she like aerobics classes, you can still have a conversation about how much you like going to the gym. It sounds like you have a pretty active, interesting life, so I think that you would have a lot of things to use as conversation items.

  7. Un-good man says:

    There are plenty of women that are interested in male game and contribute to the knowledge pool and the community and confirm that the community is correct about what works and the way that women think. presumably these women are grown up and emotionally and sexually competent enough to navigate the present dating market with out feeling the need to call for help from willing chaperons and father figures like Hugo and TGMP.

    Ironically enough, the present sexual market, and the pua community that evolved to suit the new conditions, are products of feminism.

  8. Un-good man says:

    Hey JC

    If in reality, “pua crap” was really about saying things like “Wow, you’re actually not bad loking at all! Shame about the manboobs, though.” as you are trying to lead others to believe don’t you think that it would be a massive failure rather than the most comprehensive and intelligent collection of literature on attraction thats out there and whats more, proven to work for many?

    This article and the feminist responses are very typical, OP sets up a straw man, feminists attack it…

    Whats more the cruelest practice on the dating scene is the practice of labeling guys that don’t have game, creeps, which is something akin to “sex criminal”.

    I think that its hilarious watching feminists spluttering and freaking out when, female game, dating gender roles and female dating privilege are challenged by male game.

  9. spacemonkey says:

    Wow, every time I hear about a PUA technique, I feel horrified. I’m filing this one away as a red flag that says “avoid this one.”

  10. Just looking over Hugo’s misleading piece here and it really is vile.

    He links male game to violence and abuse, and then this…

    “Wanting a guy to be well-groomed and equipped with a basic vocabulary for his own emotional terrain are not unreasonable desires. In most cases, the problem isn’t women expecting too much: it’s men offering too little”.

    In other words, any man that wants to use male accumulated knowledge of attraction, is a scruffy emotional retard. See how little this misandrist, paternalist, white knight [redacted] thinks of most men, and how he places women as their betters.

    Hugo, no doubt the more emotionally and mentally vulnerable, demographic of women (feminists) you play your beta male “all-men-are -scary -emotional -retards -that -don’t- wash- themselves-except -for- me- you- can- trust -me -please- give -me- validation” manipulative game with, that you have been playing for years now lap this up, but more intelligent people are going to call it what it is. Creepy and disingenuous.

    Congratulations on making a career out of frightening vulnerable women and putting me down.

    • edit
      Congratulations on making a career out of frightening vulnerable women and putting me down.

    • mythago says:

      By “male accumulated knowledge of attraction”, you mean “well-known principles of manipulative social behavior”. The PUA community may call it negging, but they didn’t invent the practice.

      • Mythago

        Male game covers a very broad area, here we are just discussing Hugos misunderstanding of what a neg is and the definition he lazily got from urbane dictionary.

        He set out to mislead the reader here and is playing to his crowd by frightening his emotionally vulnerable and followers and putting men down. (Probably a game that Hugo developed to manipulate women, it has all the hall marks of a manipulative strain of “beta-game”)

        Whats more, there is nothing is male game that isn’t done in female game and when it comes to relationships and dating, gaming on normal for behavior for women and the more toxic manipulative and dramatic behavior is more likely to be found in females.

      • “The PUA community may call it negging, but they didn’t invent the practice.”

        Indeed. Women did. It’s standard practice, as you can see form a lot of the repsonse of the women here.

  11. Just looking over Hugo’s misleading piece here and it really is vile.

    He links male game to violence and abuse, and then this…

    “Wanting a guy to be well-groomed and equipped with a basic vocabulary for his own emotional terrain are not unreasonable desires. In most cases, the problem isn’t women expecting too much: it’s men offering too little”.

    In other words, any man that wants to use male accumulated knowledge of attraction, is a scruffy emotional retard. See how little this misandrist, paternalist, white knight [redacted] thinks of most men, and how he places women as their betters.

    Hugo, no doubt the more emotionally and mentally vulnerable, demographic of women (feminists) you play your beta male “all-men-are -scary -emotional -retards -that -don’t- wash- themselves-except -for- me- you- can- trust -me -please- give -me- validation” manipulative game with, that you have been playing for years now lap this up, but more intelligent people are going to call it what it is. Creepy and disingenuous.

    Congratulations on making a career out of frightening vulnerable women and putting men down.

  12. I have been “negged” and it did not make me at all interested in the “neggers”. The first time it happened I felt confused and a bit hurt, and quickly extricated myself from the conversation. Later I learned it is a technique, so now I just see it as another lame way of hitting on me. That’s the thing, once women encounter “negging” a couple times, it’s no longer an indicator of intriguing disinterest, it’s just another way of being hit on. Although if like most PUA’s, you are only trying to score quick casual sex with very young, very shallow and insecure women, maybe it will give you an edge because you will be gone by the time they figure out that you are a manipulative jerk.

  13. Great article Hugo, nice top level analysis of the Pick-up artist movement and great deconstruction of the skills they employ.

    You may enjoy the article my co-blogger wrote about the same topic “The Seduction Community is Guitar Hero for Dating” http://exilelifestyle.com/seduction-community-guitar-hero-dating/

    I actually took your women’s study class at Pasadena City way back in 2005, you are an amazing professor!

    • Shannon

      How is using “Urban dictionary” and discussing an entry level buzz word and misunderstanding it (possibly deliberately), while insulting men and pedestalising women a “top level analysis”.

      Also, your avatar depicts a woman who is covered in manipulative female game fakery.

      • Can you elaborate a bit on what you see as female game “fakery”? I’m hoping that you too are not relying on a superficial take to claim “fakery”. Fakery is a very big word to throw about casually.

        I’ve been “negged” many a times and I’ve similarly instigated preemptive strikes etc
        I could be off base, though I get the sense that this discussion centers around initial, casual and short term trysts. The context is a pub, dance club, and other such flirt arenas.

        I don’t appreciate the moral authenticity mandate that seems to lay in opposition, putting aside whether these tactics work on a subset of people performing the sexual dance, for it assumes that being authentic is the shedding of complex human layers, that in more common terms include: exaggerations, psychology, game playing, and other characteristics that make us truly human authentic. Gradations exist and if we can’t wrap our heads around them, we sink into a pot of sophomoric analysis.

        Sexual dynamics are not in the subject / object sphere of understanding. I gather this is the main objection of the dissenters of this post.

        • Hi elissa

          I find this critique of male game very hypocritical and one-eyed.

          For example, the woman that is calling herself Shannon is covered in female game trapping designed to embellish, cover up, stimulate and deceive. I can go to amazon and find many best selling female game books that blatantly advocate using psychological abuse and behavior to “train/catch/keep/marry your man”.

          Female game is widespread and commonly used, that these people critiquing it haven’t got the where-with-all or self awareness to realise it or do and are operating a blatent sexual double standard.

          Im going to post a more about it at the bottom.

  14. Anyway, another crazy day on TGMP

    Hired feminist writes yet another poorly researched (Urbane Dictionary) misleading and male negative article, women worshiping article that makes false allegations of abuse, male readers (the minority) object, female feminist readers (the majority) support.

  15. Wanting a guy to be well-groomed and equipped with a basic vocabulary for his own emotional terrain are not unreasonable desires. In most cases, the problem isn’t women expecting too much: it’s men offering too little.
    Is there some actual evidence behind that or is this just another matter of putting women on a pedastal and making them out to be paragons of virture? I don’t think its a matter of men offering too little but rather a matter of men not knowing how to offer what they have. A lot of guys that are shy and lacking in confidence seem to have a lot of other things going for them and just need that last nudge to get things going.

    • AlekNovy says:

      I don’t think its a matter of men offering too little but rather a matter of men not knowing how to offer what they have.

      That’s probably the best encapsulation I’ve seen of the issue yet. I think issues stem from this – women’s unrealistic ideas of what normal dating confidence is.

      Most women downgrade men based on the confidence of their approach. So a man who’s smart, cool, funny and interesting, will not be seen as such if he approaches or flirts with the woman in a less than hollywood-level-confidence.

      This is why most men can only get into relationships after having known women for months and months from sort of social circle. Most men don’t have the James Bond confidence of quickly and easily conveying their worth.

      The big misconception women have is that first-impressions are true… especially when they use their reference point, of hollywod-movie-level-confidence. Most women literally deem a man “dumb” if he is less than charismatic.

      What women refer to as “normal” is objectively “super-normal” that is exquisitely charismatic. One obvious example of that is how women rate most men’s approaches as being below-average, which is mathematically impossible :d

      • Lindsey says:

        Wow, I think that you’re generalizing women a bit too much. If all women expected “Hollywood-level” charisma, surely there would be no couples/children at all?

        I have lots of female friends and no one I know is expecting a guy to be Rico Suave. Just the opposite – Rico Suave is cheesy. Maybe it’s because I live in a large city, but very few of the couples I know knew each other for months before dating. Most people met at a bar or a party or through friends and got together that way. None of my friends’ boyfriends are overly charming or flashy – they’re just good guys.

        • AlekNovy says:

          “””If all women expected “Hollywood-level” charisma, surely there would be no couples/children at all? “””

          – I was very careful in what I said.
          – I said that women in an INITIAL(cold) approach expect hollywood-level-charisma. Which is why MOST guys can only get into relationships after having known a woman in a social circle.

          Make sense? Re-read my comment and you’ll see.

          “Most people met at a bar or a party or through friends and got together that way. None of my friends’ boyfriends are overly charming or flashy – they’re just good guys.”

          You put meeting through friends and parties and bars/clubs in the same sentence – that shows just how ignorant women are about what it takes to meet women in the latter.

          And yes, to actually so much as be allowed to say a “Hi, I’m bob” in a club requires 10x confidence in a bar/club then it does in a work-party or meeting through friends.,

          “””None of my friends’ boyfriends are overly charming or flashy – they’re just good guys.”””

          But that’s the thing. As a woman you’re not calibrated to what’s normal. What you refer to as “just good” as actually above average. Sure, I’m generalizing but I have observed and worked with hundreds of guys over the past decade in half a dozen countries. I actually know what’s required to simply introduce yourself to a woman without being brushed off on hi.

          Average confidence, to approach an average woman in the supermarket/bar/club actually gets you rudely put down and brushed off. Women label basic normal average confidence “creepy” or “weird” – because even a hint of nervousness or anxiety is seen as a sin – when in truth its NORMAL – its not normal or average to talk to a COMPLETE stranger and from the first 30 seconds already be at ease with them – THAT IS NOT NORMAL – > that IS in fact Hollywood-level charisma.

      • I think sometimes there is a lot of confusion about what women mean by “confident.” I think it can mean different things for different women. Some women may want a really overbearing alpha male type, while others would be interested in a guy who is quieter and more introspective or even shy. I think what turns off a lot of women is just plain awkwardness. If the conversation feels uncomfortable, women will try to get out of it. If asked later why they liked guy A over guy B, they may say “confidence” — but that involves a lot of intangibles. Really it means to me is, “guy A was relaxed and interesting, and I had a good time talking to him, whereas guy B was so nervous, the conversation was strained and awkward.” This is not a gender thing; it’s how we all interact with each other every day. You meet people, you like some of them and you don’t like others based on how the interaction went. Maybe men wouldn’t need PUA training if they simply interacted with women in a normal way that THEY would find rewarding in an interaction with someone else (regardless of gender or level of romantic interest). Too many guys approach like women are exotic gazelles, or aliens from Mars. I was very shy in high school and college so I understand how difficult it is. But as a shy person, you have to learn that it is up to YOU to make the interaction easier for others. It is not others’ responsibility to make the interaction easier for you.

        • AlekNovy says:

          “””I think what turns off a lot of women is just plain awkwardness”””

          Well that’s what we’re talking about. Its NOT normal to NOT be akward when talking to a stranger. For a woman to expect a completely smooth interaction with a complete stranger whom she just met 1.5 seconds IS in fact an unrealistic demand.

          Women who don’t believe me, I say “Ok, walk up to the cutest guy in the bar today, and see how unkward you are” – NORMAL PEOPLE are akward when approaching a cute stranger – that’s NORMAL. -> to overcome this is to develop superior charisma.

          “””This is not a gender thing; it’s how we all interact with each other every day. “””

          As far as romantic approaching is concerned – yet it is a gender thing, because men are a lot more understanding. Both me and a lot of my attractive friends get approached by women all the time.

          Most of the women’s approaches are also akward. But guess what? Do we brush them off, cut them off or deem them weird or creepy? Nope. And its not just us. Guys being approached by non-charismatic women are generally much much much kinder than women are.

          “”””But as a shy person, you have to learn that it is up to YOU to make the interaction easier for others. It is not others’ responsibility to make the interaction easier for you.””””

          I only agree up to a point. Yes, as a shy person you have the obligation to make interaction with people easier… BUT not to the point where the other person makes it 10x more difficult coz you’re not charismatic.

          If women only made it as difficult as the average male stranger, then that would make sense. But to say that women have 000000000000000% responsibility in being approachable or making it more comfortable or rewarding for men to approach is in fact a case of “expecting too much for men”.

          It has to be a two way street. Its 2011 – women need to be equal – that means doing equal work in courting rituals. Women however expect the men to make sure the interaction flows perfectly – and if not, he’s labeled a creep.

          • Again, it is just tough to feel excited about someone who you are having an awkward, uncomfortable conversation with. Men may be more tolerant in this area because they are more interested in physical attraction. If a hot woman is extremely awkward, they won’t care because at least she’s interested and maybe they can get into her pants. However, imagine you are being hit on at a bar by a woman who is fat and ugly. You would be totally creeped out and probably want to get away from her as quickly as possible. You wouldn’t think, “well she’s fat and ugly but I’ll give her a chance because hey she might be nice.”. You’d be like, “Yuck! Get this fat chick away from me.” Women can be equally judgmental but they judge men based on personality. It’s like a job interview; if you don’t make a good first impression, it is hard to recover. I’m not saying it’s right but that’s how it is in MANY contexts, not just chatting up women in a bar. Furthermore, women are always thinking about making a good first impression with their looks. In fact many women focus on it excessively. Women don’t think, “hey I’ll just walk into a club with no makeup ratty sweats and a baggy turtleneck and, shoot, no one is paying attention to me, jerks!” Women know that it’s up to them to look their best. It’s up to men to act their best.

            In an ideal world men wouldn’t care about a woman’s looks and women would be willing to spend time with guys who don’t make a good first impression. But in the real world, people are superficial. I think it’s often a matter of people having limited time and energy to get to know each other so they use short cuts. It’s sad but complaining won’t change it. If I’m 30 pounds overweight I can’t expect tons of guys to pursue me. I should lose weight or get liposuction or cosmetic surgery or I just have to learn to accept myself. It depends on what I want. Similarly, it is possible for a shy person to learn to appear relaxed and confident when meeting a stranger. If you can do it in a job interview or with co-workers at a new job, you can do it with members of the opposite sex.

  16. Henry Vandenburgh says:

    I remember a pathetic male engineering professor who tried to get next to an English professor by telling her how stupid her ideas were. It didn’t work.

  17. AlekNovy says:

    Hugo, I want your opinion…

    I won’t argue and debate the ussual topic. I think we’re all wasting a lot of time arguing the ‘why” there is a problem instead of arguing the WHAT of the solution.

    I’ve personally converted and de-brainwashed a lot more PUAs then feminists ever will. Simply because I knew many of them personally – and today I have them on a MUCH different track.

    Here’s the solution I offer to the whole mess of the current problems… And what I personally practice and offer to other men, successfully. As an alternative to this PUACRAP.

    ============

    My personal solution to this whole mess is for men to never EVER hit on women, ever initiate with women, ever assume a woman is interested or wants to be pursued.

    You might think I’m extreme, but I really do think this is the best way to solve the whole issue. I think we need to go through a period where men pause and stop hitting on women and put themselves in the role of the pursued so they can see what its like from the other side.

    I personally never ever ever so much as have the thought of a woman being or not being interested in me, or ever even communicate with a woman from that frame. I only ever talk to women in the exact same way I talk to everyone else in the room. I never ever flirt with women, I only ever “socialize”.

    I make sure to communicate friendliness, approachability in every context and that I am completely liberal and non-judgemental. This is to allow for whoever is in that context and is interested in me, to know they can feel free to approach me and pursue me, should she be interested.

    Women take my number, ask me out, and I let them do all the initiating. This is also what I share with and teach other men.

    Your thoughts?

    =============

    • Cosign. I think the way it really works is that the woman signals to you that she’s ready. I’ve never gone to bars or clubs for pickups, and wouldn’t. I’m good looking and have generally had good looking partners, but I think bars and clubs are all about surface.

      Weirdly, I’ve generally slept with women I’ve known over a year. Always friends first. One of the best relationships I’ve ever had, I knew her for nine years first.

      Every so often, I guess, when we were platonic, I’d send her a signal I desired her. So I wasn’t completely passive.

  18. WOW, I CAME BACK AND SO MANY COMMENTS ARE DELETED!

  19. Blame romance novels or television shows, pop psychology or feminism (the MRAs are especially fond of pinning all their woes on the last of these), but 21st century American women are too demanding—or so these lads claim. They want hot bods and fat wallets and empathy, like some perfect fusion of Johnny Depp, Mark Zuckerberg, and Dr. Drew.

    All things being equal, it’s probably true that the vast majority of us would like our partners to have hot bods and empathy, and a lot of us would like them to have fat wallets as well. But that isn’t really the problem PUAs are trying to address.

    The real problem is: Women rate the overwhelming majority of men as very below-average in looks as evidenced by this frequently-cited survey at OKCupid. The reverse is NOT true: men rate average-looking women as average-looking (at least among pre-menopausal women).

    So it is NOT some kind of imaginary paranoid misconception that guys have that women see the majority of their potential suitors as ‘beneath’ them. It appears to be a very real phenomenon, and any advice which denies that reality has a credibility problem … particularly advice that claims, “In most cases, the problem isn’t women expecting too much: it’s men offering too little.”

    • That article also shows that 2/3 of men are pursuing the women who are in the top 1/3 attractiveness and ignoring a lot of cute women in the middle, whereas male attractiveness is somewhat less important to women.

      • AlekNovy says:

        “That article also shows that 2/3 of men are pursuing the women who are in the top 1/3 attractiveness”

        Susan, I believe the data means that men invest 2/3 of their effort attempting to get the top 1/3 of women. They don’t actually reject the bottom 2/3 of women. Its number of attempts made, not number of men making attempts :)

        Its like, you might invest 2x more effort trying to get into a prestigious university, but you’re not rejecting the non-prestigious one if you don’t make it into the prestigious one.

        • Supra deluca says:

          Women are not universities. But okay, let;s say that men care more about the university’s building than about the qualifications of it’s teachers. Men still prefer the hottest ones, and believe they are entitled to them, as typical.
          Most women of course would enjoy a hot guy, but they are very much more forgiving.

          Also, I guess you understand how most average looking women try their best to be cute and are very vain, while the average guy… only basic hygiene. And that, I am sorry to say, does not help men. That is the reason most average looking women will, in the end, look much better – they put effort into their looks.
          I doubt most guys would enjoy a woman with super short boring hair, no plucked eyebrows and unshaved armpits and legs… just like most men like to present themselves. Oh, and unappealing, monochromatic clothes as well. FUN FUN FUN, super hot!

      • First, Susan, I think AlekNovy makes a valid point.

        Moreover, it’s not at all clear how much less important male physical attractiveness is to women than female physical attractiveness is to men. As I noted when this point came up at FC, the notion that it’s less important to women …

        … is actually an incorrect impression because of the way one very important piece of information is absent from that otherwise interesting OKCupid post: namely, that women are far less likely than men to initiate a message in the first place. I couldn’t find the chart that showed exactly how much less likely women were to initiate, though I believe there was a chart posted at about the time of the original post that indicated the difference was pretty dramatic.

        So a better way to look at how important looks are to women is look at how a male sender’s looks affected women’s reply rates. Here, though, we run into a second very important piece of information that — though not exactly missing — is presented misleadingly, which has the effect of understating how hypergamous women’s attitudes are. The response rate charts don’t correct for the fact that the average man is not a “medium male recipient.”

        If you make that correction, you find that the most attractive female senders are about 38% more likely to get a response from an average male recipient than an average female sender. The most attractive male senders are about 55% more likely to get a response from an average female recipient than an average male sender.

  20. Lindsey says:

    I think that insulting anyone, particularly someone you don’t even know, is rude. Period. The fact that this can manipulate people who already have low self esteem makes it that much worse.

    If these women are so stuck up, why even bother? Wouldn’t it be better to just go talk to someone else instead of wasting your time trying to devise little strategies on how to win them over? Besides, if someone is so intent on finding a good looking “alpha” male, one little insult probably isn’t going to help. I mean, does anyone think that “I don’t like your hair” is going to make a shallow person not shallow? It’s more likely that she wasn’t even shallow to begin with and would have got with the guy, anyway.

    • AlekNovy says:

      Well said Lindsay.

      What you pointed out is one of the most TOXIC things about PUA-culture. I regularily get into fights with PUAs about this part. Its like a cult that instills completely irrational beliefs.

      A PUA, being in the community for a while believes that its “better” if you had to “make” a woman want you. Its a common frame that is installed onto guys when they enter it.

      Like a guy will for example meet the most beatiful, smartest, coolest, most supportive woman ever – but his PUA buddies will say “it’s not solid game”. If he asks them why – they will say “well she approached you, so it doesn’t count”.

      And that’s like ASININE. One of the local PUAs once argued with me in the street that sex should feel better if you “earned” it by gaming the woman. He actually use that term :d

      He was saying how my approach (letting women pursue me) sucks, because for sex and companionship to be enjoyable you must have “won” or “made” the girl want you – and I’m shaking my head in disbelief at the irrationality.

      • Lindsey says:

        haha yeah, that’s crazy. If that’s how they feel then they will probably never have a healthy relationship. I feel that attraction is best when it’s mutual – not when it’s forced.

  21. Lindsey says:

    On a side note, I’d like to know what women can do to let a guy down gently. Telling someone that you’re not interested is never easy or pleasant for the other person. What is the best way to go about doing it? If a woman is approached by a guy that she’s not into, what should she say?

    • That’s a difficult one I think because the present dating culture that women have created. The class system that females have invented for men, acceptable men, jerks, assholes, losers, creeps makes it difficult to let a guy down gently, the present solution is for a guy to position himself as the potential asshole or the jerk, for that you need the confidence, if he hasn’t got the confidence and women are labelling him a loser or a creep, his self esteem will be destroyed.

      Another thing is, reading Hugo’s saying that women are better than men, and seeing no complaints from the women here – perhaps if more women objected to that sort of nonsense and didnt believe that they were better than men, all of a sudden a much larger pool of acceptable men would appear right before their eyes which would negate the need to reject so many men.

      So what I’m saying basically is take a reality check, are you really better than all these men, or is it an illusion created by female privilage in the culture and misguided women worshipers like Hugo? Also, don’t be so cruel, stop labelling men that do not have confidence losers and creeps, if women stop destroying their self esteem for fun, there will be more confident men.

      • Lindsey says:

        No woman I know thinks that all guys are either Brad Pitt, a jerk, or a creep. There are plenty of guys that seem perfectly good but, for whatever reason, you’re just not into. Maybe you just don’t click. Don’t fall into the trap of assuming that every woman who turns you down thinks that she’s better than you. There are so many other reasons why this could happen. You’re complaining that women label you, but at the same time, you’re putting women into two categories: available and snobby. It’s not fair, either.

        That being said, I’m still waiting for an answer. If a woman thinks that a guy is great, but don’t feel attracted, what should she say?

        • wing girl kim says:

          If a woman thinks a guys is great but she’s not attracted, then she should try getting to know him better to see if there something else that’s attractive besides his first impression.

          • Why? What if you don’t have time to get to know every guy better? You wouldn’t tell guys that they should spend time getting to know women that they really feel no attraction for. And what if you do get to know him better and you still aren’t into him — what then?

            • wing girl kim says:

              Then be polite, and say, “No, thank you. I’m not interested.” And smile!

            • ascendingPig says:

              Sorry, but putting time into being nice and getting to know a guy better when he’s clearly not attractive to you will waste his time and yours, and give him false hope so he’s humiliated and disappointed when you finally let him drop.

        • Lindsey

          I never said that I assume that every women that turns me down thinks that shes better than me, or care about what women label me, I generally fall into the categories of acceptable, asshole or jerk ,depending on various things. The last time I heard a woman label me, it was with “overconfident smart ass with a lovely smile” which I take to be a “neg”, women use negging more than men and the real meaning of what she said, “I find you attractive and would like to sleep with you”.

          I was talking about the dating scene in general. And the culture that you come from, where even your college professor, a very influential person in your life openly claims that women are better than men and attacks men with no confidence.

          • GirlGladForTheGMP says:

            Goto:

            I read the same article, and I didn’t get any of that “women are better than men” vibe you seem to think resonates in it. I’m a woman and I know that women aren’t better than men. Apples and oranges, man.
            Speaking of dating/pickup culture, perhaps women come out armed because the expectation is that men are constantly trying to sleep with you. I’m pretty sure though, that women didn’t come up with that idea all on their own. In bars, at the bus-stop at 6a.m., in the grocery store trying to buy dinner, picking up grandmas drycleaning…what good men don’t realize is that women often deal with being picked up all the time. Perhaps the woman who labelled you actually meant “You’re toeing the line, but I’m intrigued by you.”, and not automatically jump to the conclusion that sex was the only thing on her mind (maybe it was in this case, but it’s not too often held).

            Oh, and of the uni profs…try being the only girl in Economics class. The guys got complex econ scenarios, I got asked how to use a dutch oven…thanks for the stereotype – I also got the best grade int he class 😛

            • Hi girlgladfortheTGMP

              If you like and support TGMP, you are pretty much buying into the idea that men need to improve, that there are few good men and many un-good men and women are already good and deserve blanket respet regardless, thats the tone of the magazine.

              Does you user name not imply that you think there needs to be a project to improve men for use of women?

              As for the article the OP clearly states “the problem isn’t women expecting too much: it’s men offering too little.”

              You see because this message, is labelled eqality, it hids the fact that it is not and thats why you can’t see the OP implying that women are generally superiour. The OP is quite well know for his stance on women and men, that women are denicate sacred cows and men are generally brutes.

              “Speaking of dating/pickup culture, perhaps women come out armed because the expectation is that men are constantly trying to sleep with you”.

              Yes they do, their minds are often polluted with all sorts of misnadric negativity and bullshit about men, men are only after one thing, men are pigs, rape culture myths, men wanting to sleep with you are bad… and so on. Thats a good argument for negging in fact, letting the woman know that you arent interested to nullify her misandric programming.

              “You’re toeing the line, but I’m intrigued by you.”, and not automatically jump to the conclusion that sex was the only thing on her mind

              Possibly, I do believe that she was thinking, “you might not be b/f material but I’d say you are good in bed”.

              How do you use a dutch oven?

            • having just been through an economics class, I would’ve killed for the dutch oven.

              I understand dutch ovens.

              Sorry. Tangent. Anyway…

        • Lindsey

          I never said that I assume that every women that turns me down thinks that shes better than me, or care about what women label me, I generally fall into the categories of acceptable, asshole or jerk ,depending on various things. The last time a female labeled me it was with “over confident smart ass with a lovely smile”. Which I believe is a neg and code for “under the right circumstances I’d like to sleep with you”.

          Anyway.

          I was talking about the dating scene in general. And the culture that you come from, where even your college professor, a very influential person in your life openly claims that women are better than men and attacks men with no confidence.

        • Whatever you say to the guy, be sure to SAY IT, and SOON, with kindness, but leaving no ambiguity that you’re just not into him. Too many women just can’t bring themselves to tell a guy they really are not interested in him “that way.” So, they keep agreeing to dates with him, and coffee, and whatever, and he keeps falling deeper and deeper in love while you remain coldly indifferent and ever-more worried that you’re going to hurt him — a situation you have now guaranteed by not being honest right at the outset.

          There’s probably no way he won’t be a little hurt and disappointed (the completely pain-free rejection technique women like you look for, I have to say, does not exist). But it’s easy to get over a small hurt before the attraction has time to go to a place where it will inevitably turn into a massive, catastrophic hurt that sets the guy back in his ability to relate to women all the way to adolescence. Better to hurt a little, for a little while, than be crushed for years when all it would have taken was an unmistakable “no thanks.”

          Another thing: don’t cushion your rejection with dishonest weasel phrases like “I’m just not ready to date RIGHT NOW.” Because he will take that literally, and think there is still a chance with you down the road. So he’ll stick around and keep doting on you, waiting and hoping for that magical day that you made him think is coming.

          • wondering says:

            Hmmm. I can see what you’re saying about not dragging things out, but what about those of us who don’t (typically) become sexually attracted to someone until we know them and are friends? That does not, of course, that I am sexually attracted to all of my friends, it simply means that I’m not going to be sexually attracted to anyone unless there is already mutual trust and respect between us.

            I guess this explains why I’ve had less interest/experience with the dating scene and way more friends-with-benefits situations. Never really thought about it before.

          • lemmy caution says:

            If your neighbor you don’t like asked to borrow your car, would you turn them down directly? Probably not. First, you would hesitate in your response. Then you would make up some excuse.

            Rejection is potentially painful and there is a good reason to sugar coat things:

            http://eharrison.org/explicit-language-is-an-excellent-way-of-crea

      • Go to, I’m going to borrow your words from a different post and apply them here:

        Men should take responsibility for their own emotions. Women can’t “make” men feel this way or that. Men are in charge of their own self esteem.

        You, sir, a raging hypocrite.

        • I’m not sure I am Sara.

          In this case, I’m talking about direct and deliberate attacks on the self esteem of men with self esteem issues by the OP and females in out dating culture and I advocate men taking responsibility for their self esteem by engaging in programs like game, and I point out the hypocrisy of Hugo asking men to not attack the self esteem for the women he objectifies as sacred cows while in the same breath, attacking the self esteem of men.

          On the other thread we were talking about self esteem issues and beauty standards generated by female competition and the female orientated media and consumerism which deliberately knocks women’s self esteem in order to sell them more vanity products, but many women don’t understand that, and blame men as a group instead of themselves and the industry that has built up around female game products and competition.

          In the fist instance, we have the OP accacking men and women calling men creeps and losers for lacking confidence and me pointing that out as deliberate attacks on self esteem.

          In the second we have women and the media that they worship causing the problem – the female media knocks the self esteem of women, so it can sell them more vanity products and men in general tend to be blamed for that, because many women, particularly feminist women prefer to blame men.

    • wing girl kim says:

      I smile, tilt my head slightly (subconsciously) and say, “Thank you, but I’m not interested,” or “I’m sorry, but I’m not really into this conversation,” or whatever. Show in your body language that you appreciate the gesture.

      • dungone says:

        Being honest and friendly works best! It’s mature, confident, and unimpeachable! That’s the kind of girl that lets guys walk away after having been turned down yet still feel glad that they asked. The worst kind is the one who withdraws, turns a cold shoulder and offers some insincere “nice” excuse to cover it up.

    • AlekNovy says:

      Great question lindsay! Very constructive too.

      I think the key point here is that the way to letting a guy down easy isn’t in the words, but the attitude. I know women who never ever ever piss off not a single guy that they’ve rejected (even though they get propositioned all the time).

      What do they all have in common? A deep understanding and appreciation for how difficult it is to be in the initiator and pursuer role. They have a compassion, understanding and they get it.

      That’s why they can say no and it comes through in their tone that they are appreciative and grateful that the guy took that chance and risk upon her.

      Its all about the tone. Two women can say the exact same thing, but one is perceived as cool, and the other as a bitch. The latter ussually because she says the no with a tone of disdain, ungratefulness and even a sort of superiority.

      • What comes across as bitchiness or superiority may just be nervousness. If you have ever been in a job where you had to fire someone, it is not fun. Of course it is worse for the person being fired, but it’s still not fun for the supervisor. Most people don’t actually enjoy hurting someone else’s feelings.

        She may be socially awkward. Women can be socially awkward, just like men, she may not know how to react in a more friendly fashion. She may not realize how she’s coming across.

        It is also possible that if a woman reacts badly, she feels that you were pestering her. You may have tried to talk to her at a bad time. She may have had bad experiences where when she tried to be nice in her rejection and it didn’t work.

        Finally, she may just be a bitch.

        • AlekNovy says:

          Susan. Everything you said is 100% spot on.

          In fact, that’s one of the things I most often tell guys. I try to explain to guys that 90% of situations where they complain about a woman’s “bitchiness” – she was usually shy or awkward.

          On the flip side, the same holds truth on the women’s side. Most of the time women accuse a guy of being a jerk, entitled, reeking of male privilege etc – most of the time its the guy being akward.

          So that too is a unisex problem :)

    • Femastrophysicist says:

      In the case of good men, smile and say “Thanks for the compliment. I’m flattered but not interested.” It’s clear and kind, and acknowledges that asking a woman out can be hard.

      For men whom this does not suffice for, I sort of become a broken record. So – like this.

      HIM: “Hey, you’re lookin good, can I have your number?”
      ME: “Thanks for the compliment. I’m flattered but not interested.”
      HIM: “Come on girl, why do you have to be like that?”
      ME: “Again, thanks, but not interested.”
      HIM: “You’re just playing hard to get.”
      ME: “Still not interested.”

      etc… (yup, I have had this particular conversation on some occasions).

      • AlekNovy says:

        Fema – its not about the words. Its about the attitude behind the words. I have female friends who say the EXACT same thing when letting a guy down, but one of them causes anger, and the other NEVER does. I genuinelly know a girl who’s had to rejects hundreds of guys and never had the conversation you described. Whereas some girls always have it.

        The girl who never does – she LOVES men, she feels a genuine sense of gratefulness, and she only has to say it once – and the guys walk away from her with a smile, thankful to have talked with her.

    • SnakeEyez says:

      Probably the best way to let men down is to be kind, direct, upfront and truthful. Pretty much all rejection pretty much hurts to some degree and is unavoidable. Most mature individuals and healthy individuals should be able to deal with it.

  22. My last post got me thinking about the bind that men are being put in here.

    Feminist culture, produces emasculated men, men without confidence or game.

    Generally women are attracted to men with game and men without game are rejected and labelled losers and creeps and that obviously presents a problem for men without game.

    So the options are accept being a loser and creep and accept celibacy or learn about game and try to get some.

    Obviously I’m making large generalization and I’m leaving out leaving out beta game, but catering and genuflecting to women is genuinely creepy and not what a lot of men, or women (until they decide they want a reliable provide) want, and its not a good position for men to put themselves in.

    • I think the fallacy you’re committing to here is that the men labeled “losers” and “creeps” might just be losers and creeps, respectively. Just because a woman turns a man down doesn’t mean he’s filed into one of those categories. Maybe he is just unattractive to her. I think there is a huge discrepancy between who men think they can get and who is willing to take that same man. If you think you’re going to walk up to a 9 and take her home, but you’re a 6 who is grievously ignorant/arrogant, it’s just not going to work, no matter what line you use. The pick-up lines are for hook-ups, which is good to remember, because if a man is looking for something more serious/long-term, he isn’t going to find it by using a line. I don’t get why two people can’t just have a conversation without “bait”. I guess it’s because the PUA actually has no legitimate interest in his (or her!) target, he’s just looking for the first bite.

      • No C.H

        I didnt commit that fallacy, as you can see in the last paragraph I said that I was making large generalizations.

        Then you go on to commit the same fallacy that you accused me of committing by making ill informed generalizations about the PUA community. This publication attracts a lot of arm chair experts on game, that don’t understand what it actually is.

        There is good unbiased discussion about game, a feminist POV verses a more honest and neutral POV. Try this discussion “Game Over? Denise Romano’s Critique of Pickup and Seduction”, it will give you a more balanced view.

        • Men who use the term “game” seriously should be the ones labelled as losers and creeps. No wonder they have to spend so much time and effort trying to get sex.

    • wing girl kim says:

      The game generally works in certain environments, like parties and bars, or with alcohol. But in other environments, when a woman’s mind is not on playing her own game, a guy just needs to find commonality to help build a woman’s trust. Once that trust is achieved, anything is possible. But then a guy still needs social grace.

      Don’t forget that women are not attracted to men the same way men are attracted to women. A guy can be an ugly mo-fo and a woman might become attracted to his intelligence. But there’s no way she can know his intelligence unless she gets to know him. He must have have social skills. There are a lot of places to learn social skills: Dale Carnegie, Toastmakers, Jordan’s Harbinger’s The Art of Charm school, getting involved with The Good Men Project :) (like volunteering), Steven Covey …

    • that’s weird, because the guys i know with the most game—as in, the ones that GOT INTO MY PANTS—were the ones who

      a) identified as feminist
      b) followed a consent model—asking me questions and checking in if i liked what was going on
      c) had conversations with me, the ones that didn’t rely on either false compliments or cheesy backhanded insulpliments, but just conversations about the world, life, music, or what I/they were into

      in other words, feminists get laid. Not the faux nice guys (like these: http://www.thelmagazine.com/newyork/nice-guys-just-want-to-get-laid/Content?oid=1620401&show=comments) who want a gold star for not taking advantage of me in my sleep—actual people who see me as a human being they would like to have a variety of sexual interactions with, and ask nicely.

      But you obviously don’t trust what women say about their experiences or their bodies, so here’s an interview with Michael Kimmel on consent—and why feminism is good for your sex life.
      http://www.theconsensualproject.com/blog/interview-with-michael-kimmel-on-consent

      • SnakeEyez says:

        in other words, feminists get laid. Not the faux nice guys (like these: http://www.thelmagazine.com/newyork/nice-guys-just-want-to-get-laid/Content?oid=1620401&show=comments) who want a gold star for not taking advantage of me in my sleep—actual people who see me as a human being they would like to have a variety of sexual interactions with, and ask nicely.

        This is kind of weird because I was in a pick up lair and this was kind of the basis for a lot of the stuff we learned: i.e. how not to be needy. Of course the lair that I belonged to at the time emphasized other games: inner game (building confidence/self-esteem, better life style, health), outer game (improving your general appearance), social game (how to create a large circle of friends), day game (best practices for meeting women during the day), etc…

        As for the Kimmel interview I continue to wonder why and how he became an expert on masculinity. Kimmel seems to be a self hating man that has made a name for himself by writing about how what’s wrong with masculanity.

  23. AlekNovy says:

    ” Just because a woman turns a man down doesn’t mean he’s filed into one of those categories.”

    But we’re not talking about a woman simply not being interested. We’re talking about women HARSHLY and rudely humiliating men they’re not interested in a “get away from me you creepy filth” fashion.

    2) BASHING PUAS IS FUN

    BUT —> got alternative? I like Bashing PUAs, and then offering an alternative. That’s much more constructive.

    I offered an alternative strategoy to pua/game crap, and nobody commented on it, because everyone likes to bash men who do things wrong, but nobody want to offer a “how to do it right” option.

    – Men are told that unless they naturally know what to do with women, they’re losers
    – But if they try THE ONLY option/school that exists, they’re compared to rapists and hitler

    The saddest part about the PUA phenomenon, is not that it exists. The saddest part is that its the ONLY thing that exists. There are no major alternatives, and everyone just likes bashing men for daring to not naturally get it, but nobody offers them a step-by-step concrete advice of what TO-DO.

    • I think your method — not pursuing women and letting them pursue you — works for several reasons. (a) you don’t seem desperate for approval, (b) you aren’t worried about hitting on women so you appear relaxed and confident, (c) you talk to women like you are 2 normal people having a conversation; (d) your lack of interest allows women to feel comfortable getting to know you and is intriguing, (e) you don’t avoid women out of fear, while at the same time, you dont pursue them desperately either; you just behave normally and get to know people through normal social interaction.

      If more guys followed that advice there would not be as much demand for PUA training.

      • Susan

        “(a) you don’t seem desperate for approval, (b) you aren’t worried about hitting on women so you appear relaxed and confident, (c) you talk to women like you are 2 normal people having a conversation; (d) your lack of interest allows women to feel comfortable getting to know you and is intriguing, (e) you don’t avoid women out of fear, while at the same time, you dont pursue them desperately either; you just behave normally and get to know people through normal social interaction.”

        When you get down to it, and past all the bullshit, thats pretty much the point of game.

        • AlekNovy says:

          “””When you get down to it, and past all the bullshit, thats pretty much the point of game.”””

          No dude… Game is FAKING *some* of the the symptoms of being that guy. Game teaches you what to say to APPEAR like you are those things instead of being things.

          In what I describe you GENUINELLY have no want or desire to GET a woman or get anything FROM women. Game teaches you to GET women by doing xyz.

          What I describe involves no “targets”. Game is based around the concept of having a “target”. In game you have an OUTCOME in mind, and a person you WANT that outcome with even before you’ve talked to them.

          What I’m describing is genuinelly, truly talking to every single person everywhere like just another person, regardless if they posess boobs or not. You let THEM or rather HER get the idea of something more than social FIRST. Until then the thought doesn’t even cross your mind.

          Game would have you WANT to GET something from someone, and then walking up to her and doing things to “trick her” into believing you don’t want something, by using techniques that display non-neediness.

          There’s a different between not-needing, and purposefully and conciously trying to LOOK like you don’t need it. Do you get the distinction?

          • AlekNovy

            You are promoting learning to not be uninterested and waiting for women to come to you, so the AlekNovy method involves consciously faking that, until it becomes a habit, with the objective of baiting a target, do you see your false distinction?

            You are talking about a style of game that Paul Elam promotes, as far as I know he is writing a book on it. Google Zeta Game.

            • EDIT – learning to be uninterested

            • AlekNovy says:

              “EDIT – learning to be uninterested”

              Btw, you still don’t get it. Its not about being “uninterested” – you try to fit everything in the old frame.

              Its about being interested in PEOPLE as cool people to get to know and socialize with. You don’t discriminate if some of these these happen to posses boobs or not.

              Its not about being either interested or disinterested sexually (or faking it). Its simply having a different focus. You focus on people as PEOPLE you get to know.

              Until the moment one of these people starts to get you sexual, you are only focused on the PERSON.

            • AlekNovy says:

              Dude, stop trying to fit everything in your frame. That’s so common of gamers. You try to re-contextualize everything to MAKE IT still be “game”.

              “”You are promoting learning to not be uninterested and waiting for women to come to you, “”

              Nope. I wait for women to:

              1) PURSUE ME…
              2) Be interested sexually first

              I still talk to and socialize with everyone. I don’t wait for women to ‘come to me”. I talk to everyone, and I come to everyone, with everyone including women.

              “”‘so the AlekNovy method

              Its not my method. Its brent smiths. He’s Rick H’s best friend. He’s the guy who taught DeAngelo everything 15 years ago. He’s moved past “game” at least 10 years ago.

              “””involves consciously faking that,”””

              Omg, the typical game-cult-bullshit… GAMERS are the ones who believe in the “fake it till you make it” bullshit. It doesn’t work. They spend “faking” it 20 years after discovering game. And they never become anything except professional fakers.

              GAME IS BY DEFINITION faking it – That’s just a convenient excuse by gamers to justify manipulation.

              I never PRETENDED or faked not looking at a woman sexually. I really just adopted it overnight. You just go out and you focus on her as a PERSON just like you did with the dude you talked to before her and after her. You have no goal or outcome in mind and your goal is to talk to everyone in the room.

              I did not FAKE that I am being social and talking to everyone while subconsciously having a “target” – it doesn’t work – that IS game.

              “””that Paul Elam promotes, as far as I know he is writing a book on it. Google Zeta Game.”””

              I’m fully aware who Paul Elam is. I helped him with launching the radio station. The problem is that everything I’m saying, you’re not hearing and trying to fit into frames you previously have heard of.

            • Alek

              I hope you realise that I’m not the “gamer” you think I am.

              In fact, my interpretation of what game is, its end point is – what you are describing and when these trainers send guys out to have “targets” and frames and so on, the point is to get them to a point where its natural and they no longer need to do those things and begin to socialise normally, but with natural game – what you are describing as “beyond game”.

              Im not trying to fit things into frames but I think that you are, unbeknownst to yourself.

            • AlekNovy says:

              I hope you realise that I’m not the “gamer” you think I am.

              You might not think you are, but you display the exact same thought processes and try to label everything game using the same thought patterns that they do.

              Mind you, I’ve been involved with this stuff for 10 years or so. I’ve been in and around this stuff back when it was just mystery and a few dozen guys on a private forum, of which I knew a few personally.

              In fact, my interpretation of what game is, its end point is – what you are describing and when these trainers send guys out to have “targets” and frames and so on, the point is to get them to a point where its natural and they no longer need to do those things and begin to socialise normally, but with natural game – what you are describing as “beyond game”.

              But that’s the entire fallacy about game.

              That’s like saying “If you play a doctor on TV enough many times, you’ll become a doctor”. It just doesn’t work that way.

              Game is the ridiculous notion that the way to becoming the town’s best healer is to play and act the doctor enough times – without ever taking medical school.

            • Im sorry Alek

              You are the one making a big deal out of game here and getting upset about it and saying that you have been actively involved with it for 10 years and dropping names and so on. You a far more in game world than you think you are.

              In fact, you appear to be so far in, you think that socialising without an agenda to pick up, treating women and men in the same way, not gaming, is some sort of a new idea when in fact, its what most people are already doing.

            • AlekNovy says:

              You are the one making a big deal out of game here and getting upset about it”

              Duh. I hate game. I despise game. I think its a vile thing that is stagnating the development of men in society.

              saying that you have been actively involved with it for 10 years

              No, I’ve been in and around the same spheres as the gamers for 10 years lol. Mostly the personal development and men’s issues circuits.

              In the first years I only saw game as a silly, harmless, stupidity that kids eventually grow out of. I hung out and was ok with the gamers coz we (I thought) were on similar paths. I was very sympathetic to gamers for most of those years (more like compassion for dumbness).

              In the past 2-3-4 years I’ve understood it to be pure sickness that is very, very damaging and must be fought.

              you think that socialising without an agenda to pick up, treating women and men in the same way, not gaming, is some sort of a new idea when in fact, its what most people are already doing.

              Oh, you’re almost right, its like that, expect the exact opposite 😀

              In our society boys are taught to CONQUER and chase and pursue and “get” women.

              Boys go around looking at women as either the “do-able” or “not-doable” category.

              If a woman is in the doable category, 99% of guys stop seeing her as anything except potential sex partner. From that moment they only think of what to say, do or be in order to get her, or get laid with her. She’s either a person to score with, or get rejected by.

              So no, not only are 99% of people not doing what I’m talking about – 99% of men are doing the EXACT opposite.

              Most guys only are interested in a woman as a person if she’s in the not-doable category.

              Most guys do NOT even approach or talk to a new woman if she’s not in the do-able category. They’re busy devising plans how to get the “hottie” in the room/party/whatever.

            • AlekNovy says:

              More specifically

              you think that socialising without an agenda to pick up

              Are you serious? 99% of guys immediatelly get a goal of getting the girl if she happens to be attractive (and he’s single/looking).

              The exact same second a guy realizes a woman is attractive to him, he starts seeing her as a sexual object and starts crafting an agenda.

              treating women and men in the same way,

              No they don’t. Most guys, the moment they see a “do-able” woman start treating her differently. They start sucking up to her, or cracking dumb jokes, or trying to impress her, or try to bully her into liking them, or they try the nice-guy routine on her. So no, MOST of the male population does not treat “do-able” women the same as they treat male acquintances.

              not gaming

              It’s not about not-gaming, its about not discriminating, and not having an agenda, and not pursuing, and not deciding for her – letting her be interested first.

              Both gamers and non-gamers are on the same side. They’re both flip-sides of the same coin – the coin called “AGENDA”.

              Game is an agenda. The nice guy routine is an agenda… The wining and dining is an agenda – they’re all agendas.

              What I am describing is not “non-game” – it is non-agenda.

              its what most people are already doing.

              Unfortunately, most men are doing the exact opposite! They always have an agenda and can’t just socialize with a woman for the sake of socializing.

              Most men see women as either a woman to winover-get-rejected by, or a non-person. How much of the general male population walks into a party and talks to and approaches EVERYONE – every single woman, the 2 he finds cute and the 30 others that are not his type at all?

  24. Neggin? Again??

    Look, I can only go by what I know. And I know my own personal experiences. In high school and the start of college I was a nice guy. I complimented women, did them favors, wrote them poetry, etc. And what was I rewarded with? I became their best friend, the nice guy, the reliable guy. Basically I was akin to their gay male friend. Totally non-threatening and totally not getting any. Granted, I didn’t want to have sex with all of them. But some of them.

    Fast forward to college where I got the best advice from an upper classman, which was “be a dick.” I’m not sure if I “negged” women but I certainly stopped the fountain of compliments, played it cool, acted distant and came across like kind of a jerk.

    And that’s when the sexual floodgates opened.

    I was getting laid all the time. It was like a flip had been switched. I still lacked self-esteem and confidence with women, but guess what? I gained it during this period because women were finally paying attention to me as more than just a friend. Do I feel bad about this? No, I don’t. If anything I was angry that it took me becoming an asshole to get any attention. Maybe you should be focusing on why women respond to this behavior instead of Mr. Nice Guy.

    In the end, these guys are out to get laid. That’s neither a good thing or a bad thing. It’s just how it is. As long as they’re not forcing sex on anyone, I say all’s fair.

    • The more I read these things; the more I feel that I am going to have to become that guy in order to get laid. Your story sounds just like my story… best friend to more women than I care to admit, trusted adviser on all things men, relationship doctor, and never considered for a relationship. I even tried the advice I got from my already large group of female friends on getting a girlfriend… the advice “become friends first and then she’ll like you and you can have a relationship.” Of course, why I believed them on that when it didn’t work with any of them is really my own stupidity.

      I guess I just want women to want me as the nice, caring, thoughtful, romantic, chivalrous gentleman that I actually am. I LIKE doing all the nice things, but they don’t seem to work.

      I guess my biggest fear is that I’ll flip the switch like you did, start to be successful with women (perhaps very successful because I do have quite a lot going for me) and then I won’t go back to being the nice person that I am now.

      To be honest, I’ve been striving to be so amazing that I can still be the crazy nice guy and women will still be all over me because I’ll be wealthy, successful, physically perfect, and more-or-less a perfect male specimen. Then again, waiting to be “perfect” just so I can get laid/have a date sounds like a recipe for being celibate for a long long time.

      • CJ, you don’t have to stop being nice to attract women. But you are making a mistake that a lot of “nice guys” make. You are hoping if you becomes friend with women, at some point they will magically transform into girlfriends. You think that if you sit there long enough being nice, being supportive, and listening to tap girl’s problems, one day she will spontaneously pull her topoff and say “let’s have sex!” well sometimes that may happen but I wouldnt count i it. You may wait a long time.

        So if you want to date women you can’t act like you want to be their friend. You have to act like you want to date them from the very start. If they aren’t interested then you must move on to other women. Don’t waste time becoming friends with women who aren’t attracted to you. No matter HOW MUCH YOU LIKE HER, if she doesn’t want to go on a date, then move on and don’t talk to her again. Why are you spending time listening to a girl’s relationship problems? That means she’s in a relationship and not available!

        This doesn’t mean you have to act like a jerk, it just means you stop hanging around women like a puppy dog. Women may like puppy dogs because they are sweet and helpless but that doesn’t translate to sexual attraction.

        I don’t think it’s useful to get into the whole “women like jerks” debate. That is a long and complicated topic. Women do like certain qualities that unfortunately many “jerks” have, but non-jerks also have. Those qualities invoke being focused on doing interesting things in your own life and not being desperate for approval. It could be something like playing a musical instrument, bike riding, fixing classic cars, volunteering for Habitat for Humanity, zen meditation, going to Burning Man, working hard at your job, education, or whatever. The list is endless. The point is that you have passion about things beyond women. Some of the men I’ve found most attractive in my life include: a guy who was a classically trained pianist and wrote music; a guy who was very involved in going on bike rides to raise money for prostate cancer research; and a guy whose hobby was buying old guitars on ebay, fixing them up and reselling them. If you don’t have any amazing talents then just find something you are passionate about. It will give you someone to talk about and give you places to go to meet women.

        • Sorry for all the typos. Typing on my iPhone

        • Had you read my posts on the pages before, you’d know I actually lead a very interesting life, but it hasn’t helped me one bit with women. I am a classically trained musician, I own my own business, and I live on my own in a big city at the age of 22. I do many interesting things, but they don’t get me anywhere with women.

          • ‘You are single, because you suck, stop sucking and you won’t be single’. There I summed up your response in a single sentence. It’s not like we haven’t heard this dating advice a million times before from feminist women.

            • If I told you “I’m overweight and get no attention from men,” you’d tell me to lose weight. We all have ways we can improve. It doesn’t mean “you suck.” If something isn’t working then change it.

            • Great, does this mean I can fire the same barrage at women who complain that men aren’t interested in them?

            • I don’t know about “barrage” — I think if you read my commments I was trying to be positive and encouraging to CJ, not saying “you suck you hopeless loser.” I don’t believe anyone is a hopeless loser but again, if someone wants to improve their dating success they have to be willing to look at what they might be doing wrong.

          • Then you are way ahead of the game because you have the qualities that could attract women but I suspect you are not using those things to your advantage. You said it yourself, you have made the mistake of being friends with women hoping it will turn to romance. It won’t. My point is, instead of putting so much pressure on yourself to impress women or convince them to like you, focus on your passions in life which you already have. Put yourself in situations where you meet women, but treat the women you meet somewhat casually. Come across like you are really busy with your own life doing all the interesting things you are doing, but like you might be able to find a few minutes to talk to her.

            I am not a fan of most PUA gurus but maybe you should try David Deangelo’s stuff. His approach seems positive and non-jerky and apparently works for a lot of guys.

        • Furious Styles says:

          In the words of Daddy Files,
          Neggin? Again?

          Most people here seem to have no real knowledge of the PUA community.

          1) There are as many different schools of pickup as there are schools of martial arts, approaches to psychotherapy, or culinary arts. Many folks consider the Neg a relic of the early 2000s after “The Pick-Up Artist” came out. The schools I favor emphasize bringing fun, banter and playful teasing. That is more who I am personally; giving backhanded compliments feels forced for me. The Neg can be so easily misapplied by guys who never been rejected because they never tried.

          2) The principles behind the neg are emphasized by the other schools I follow (and more helpful), which are:
          -Disqualifying: in the course of having a conversation, demonstrating that you are not yet another random guy seeking sex or a relationship just because she is there; e.g. I’d hang with you, but you need a nice guy-like that one over there. He’ll buy you flowers and read you poetry.
          -Banter-playfully exaggerating things that women say to guys. e.g. “are you touching on me? I’m not easy, you know! You gotta court me; You gotta take me to Red Lobster first.”

          3) Neither negging, disqualifying, or banter work by themselves. The most helpful principles that helped me were:
          -Having some goals and interests only obliquely related to the opposite sex-what will your life look like 1- 5- 10 years later? Your PASSION in other areas of life make you attractive in ways that “game” won’t.
          -Learn the art of storytelling-how to communicate your best qualities with humor
          -Have a life you already love-filled with fun isht to do that can include other people (way before you approach and start talking)
          -Learning how to accurately “read” people and get a sense of their interests and values that aren’t obvious immediately. (e.g. because accomplishment is important for you, you’re the type of person who everybody trusts to get stuff done, but nobody helps out)
          -Opening and carrying a conversation without radiating neediness
          -It’s important to be interested AND interesting
          -Go into the interaction looking to GIVE something rather than GET something
          -There is no such thing as a pick-up line/routine that makes women want you. If there was, we’d all be saying it. There’s nothing we can say to MAKE a woman sleep with/date us. There are things we can say/do to make them choose NOT to.
          -Handling your insecurities and making them strengths
          -Having gatherings of friends and turning them into low-pressure “non-dates”.

          3) I will admit, there are some men in the PUA community with mommy issues or who go out to clubs to seek retribution against women who turned them down. With money involved, nobody’s going to vet them before they take the seminars. We can all agree that bitterness isn’t sexy. But stop judging the whole community by these guys.

          Before the next article on the PUA community comes out it, please get someone who participated in it and can talk more about the principles rather than the controversial practices. PUAs have a following because all of the traditional advice here (Treat women like people, be confident) is so damn UNACTIONABLE. The best examples in the community teach guys to talk to women from their point of view-to handle their own personal anxieties and understand women’s anxieties as well as their needs for relating, connectedness, fun, sexual tension and satisfaction. That’s what I took. We’d all benefit if that happened.

          In addition to PUAs listed in other articles who don’t teach the neg and are less about having men “trick women” into liking them, I would list Neil Strauss and Sean Messenger. Google them.

          If women are going to give advice for shy guys, if nothing else, please make it actionable rather than veiled “deconstructions” and “critiques”. If it works and is respectful, we will do it. Respect is everything. Nobody ever built a statue to a critic.

          • Thank you for this comment. It is one of the few times I’ve read a comment from a PUA that isn’t completely negative about women.

            So many guys who espouse PUA techniques basicslly seem to be saying, “I should be entitled to have sex with any extremely attractive woman that I want but those women are picky and mean because they won’t let me play with their toys.” There is rarely any acknowledgment that women are naturally looking for fun, sexual excitement, and emotional and physical satisfaction in their relationships, and that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with that.

            • SnakeEyez says:

              So many guys who espouse PUA techniques basicslly seem to be saying, “I should be entitled to have sex with any extremely attractive woman that I want but those women are picky and mean because they won’t let me play with their toys.”

              I think most guys who probably claim to be PUA online probably got as far as reading ‘The Game’ or ‘The Mystery Method.’ I think most PUA who have spent a lot of time in the community or the field (dating scene) tend to realize that women weren’t being mean by rejecting them but that we were being unattractive at the time.

              As far as having a feeling of entitlement to sleep with beautiful women I will own up to that though with one caveat. It is an internal permission I give myself and not something that I expect the world to give me. Think of it like being entitled to a ‘good job’, a ‘happy life’ or ‘success’: you still have to strive to achieve them and there is no guarantee in life that you will acquire any of them but you do have a right to pursue them. Personally this isn’t necessarily a bad thing. While this may seem counter intuitive but there are a lot of men who won’t approach or try to connect with a woman if she is too attractive because the feel that they are ‘out of their league.’

              “There is rarely any acknowledgment that women are naturally looking for fun, sexual excitement, and emotional and physical satisfaction in their relationships, and that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with that.”

              Actually this is a big part of pick up that gets repeated over and over by different guru’s in the community all the time. Sadly the only things that stick in people’s minds about the pick up community is wearing funny hats and negs.

            • I think what you are getting at is the difference between the right to happiness and the right to “pursue” happiness.

              Of course men are entitled to pursue what they want, be it a perfect career or a perfect woman or a perfect beer.

              However, so many guys seem so angry that they can’t get the perfect women they desire, and they turn that around as extreme hostility toward women in general. That is such a huge turn off. So much of the stuff I read from self-proclaimed PUA’s sounds so angry, it’s like they hate attractive women and want to punish them by conning them into having sex. I think that anger comes from a sense of thwarted entitlement, and it can be very scary.

              Meanwhile there are a lot of attractive women out there who aren’t perfect 10’s, who all those angry PUA guys (or wannabe PUA guys) are ignoring while they lust after a tiny segment of the female population. As a woman, the whole thing is very depressing.

          • SnakeEyez says:

            Wow that was pretty much what I wanted to write!

      • CJ: To be fair, I did end up marrying a woman I’ve known since the 6th grade and went to college with. However, we never hooked up in college (probably because she saw what a man whore I was being) and got together three years after graduation. By that time, she wanted a nice guy and I was tired of being a jerk. So I settled into a happy medium.

        I guess what I’m trying to say is don’t make it a priority. Getting laid can’t be all you think about. I’ve found (and again, this is just me speaking from my own personal experiences) that if you make a woman the center of your universe there’s suffocation potential. That’s why, as Susan pointed out, you have to have other interests and you can’t be a puppy dog.

        If you really have as much going for you as you laid out, I wouldn’t worry about it. It’ll happen.

        • Well, it definitely hasn’t happened and that’s the point. I’ve tried for years the it’ll happen approach but it hasn’t happened and each passing month leaves me more and more depressed that it won’t be happening. It’s a very bad downward spiral and I have absolutely no idea how to break the vicious cycle. I will say that it is extremely difficult to not be extremely focused on getting laid/getting a date when you’re 22 and the only thing that’s touched your junk is your own hand. The sexual frustration is unbearable. I’ve considered just going to a prostitute to finally get it over with.

          • CJ, I know this is the kind of annoying thing that older people say to younger people but here goes –22 is actually very young. You have years and years ahead of you to meet women. So take a deep breath and imagine yourself in the future looking back with compassion on who you are today. Imagine what that future self is going to tell you. I think he would say Be patient. Love yourself more. I’m sorry to get all self help-y but that’s the truth.

            Now, that said, I know you want results today not next year or next decade. Have you thought about seeing a life coach? Not a therapist but someone who will help you set goals and develop a plan. you might also try hypnosis as a way to train your mind to be more relaxed and to develop positive patterns of thinking.

            I can’t advise you on the prostitute thing, but I went to college in a town less than 3 hours from Reno, and I know a lot of nice college guys I knew took trips up there for more than gambling.

            • In this day and age, being 22 and never having been on a date/had a girlfriend puts you WAY behind the curve. I understand I have years ahead of me, but no one is going to want to be involved with someone who hasn’t had a date/girlfriend if I get too much older and I wouldn’t blame them. The first thing that they will probably think is, “what is wrong with him?”

              I know what my future self would tell me… “Get your sh*t together or you’re going to be a loser forever.” Then again, I’m not particularly nice to myself so that isn’t to surprising. In order to love myself more, I have to love myself at all, and I don’t… probably because I have what everyone would consider unreasonably high expectations. I feel that if I accept myself as I am, I won’t have any motivation to become the person that I know I have the potential to be and I will just be another waste of amazing potential.

              You’re right, I want results. I’ve been wanting results since the age of 16 when I first started worrying about me being alone. It has been 6 very VERY long years and I’m still in the same spot. I’ve never thought about seeing a life coach (the idea seems kind of ridiculous to me) but I have tried many of the life-coach self-help type things… or sort-of tried them. I know I have a big long Tony Robbins course on my computer, lmao.

              I certainly am high strung, high anxiety, and I have extremely negative thought patterns. For as brilliant a person as I am — and I am quite brilliant — I am falling so far short in everything. My intelligence is the only thing I like about myself, and I have to defend it and demonstrate it with words because where I am in life is not representative of how gifted I actually am.

              I could write a novel — or a memoir — about what has happened in my life. I’ve thought about it and I’m told I’m an excellent writer though these poorly formatted ramblings probably don’t inspire confidence in my abilities. In fact, getting it all down on paper would probably be incredibly cathartic in addition to giving me a reasonable shot at making some solid seed money for my many other ventures that would be much more difficult to obtain by other means.

              Unfortunately, the shame I feel about the things that have befallen me is crippling. Things that I have overcome that should make me feel proud and strong make me feel weak and pathetic. I watched my father’s cancer make him wither and die over 7 years while bankrupting my family as a child. I’ve lived with and managed a debilitating genetic disorder. I’ve survived unspeakable abuse and neglect at the hands of my mother. I’ve lived with breasts since the age of 12. I’ve supported myself financially since the age of 13. I’ve survived near homelessness, the theft of my life savings by my mother, the theft of my credit rating and $10,000 in debt by my mother to support her drug addict bum self and preventing me from going to an ivy league college. I’ve survived being dragged to court after being accused of the most heinous crimes imaginable when I had the audacity to stand up to my mother and say enough is enough!

              The only way I can even admit these things is through the relative anonymity of the internet. The thought of putting it in writing and having my name attached to it fills me with dread. I fear that people will see my life and how it has unfolded as I see it; something to be ashamed of, an indictment of my inability to be strong, and proof that I could not overcome adversity and let the challenges slow me down. I don’t expect people to see me as strong and courageous for overcoming these obstacles and sharing it with the world; I expect them to see me as weak and pathetic because instead of plowing through and shaking all of these things off, I let them ensnare me and slow me down. I was not perfect; therefore, I am not worthy.

            • I feel so sad to read what you’ve written. It sounds like you’ve had a very difficult life and you feel very alone. I understand a little bit what you are going through because I had some really bad crap in my childhood too. Both my parents were pretty messed up. I had a head injury in 4th grade that left me with a seizure disorder and I had an orthopedic problem that caused me to walk with a funny limp. I was bullied a lot. I was extremely shy and had a lot of difficulty socially. Like you I had a lot of challenges and so I know it’s very very difficult. Most people will not understand what you’ve been through unless they had a similar experience.

              What helped me was some pretty intensive psychotherapy. I’d really encourage you to give it a shot even if you’ve tried before and didn’t find it helpful. There are many different kinds of therapists and you need one you can relate to. You probably want to look for a male therapist who either has a Ph.D. or a psychiatrist (M.D) who actually does therapy not just medication management.

              If you really dont want therapy then you need to find a support group of some kind. If your mom had a drug or alcohol problem, (you dont say she did, but many abusive parents do), try Adult Children of Alcoholics. If that wasn’t the issue then another idea might be a men’s support group or men’s retreat kind of thing. Yeah maybe even the kind where you go beat drums in the woods. :-) my boyfriend actually did some retreats like that and he got a lot out of it.

              If that doesn’t appeal to you then if you don’t do anything else, please please go read John Bradshaw’s book “Healing the Shame the Binds You.” I think it could really open your eyes to what’s going on inside you, and how to help yourself deal with the feelings you are having.

            • The problem, of course, is that nothing HAS worked. I tried therapy… I tried drugs, I tried therapy and drugs, self management, self help, whatever. I think therapy could theoretically work, but I would have to find a therapist that is as intelligent as I am which is almost impossible. I also would not be able to deal with a male therapist because I’m completely uncomfortable talking about problems with men. Men aren’t supposed to have problems that they can’t solve by themselves and admitting as much to another man is just not something I can do.

              I want something that works. I really don’t care what it is. I’ve wasted thousands of dollars on therapy and six months of therapy and drugs did absolutely nothing except burn through money. Sometimes I just don’t even see a point in even bothering.

            • Actually it might be easier for you to relate to a male therapist if you can get over that inhibition. The point is though, from everything you are saying, you need help. A lot of people need help. So what? Don’t let stereotypes about masculinity stop you from doing what you need to do.

              You do not need to keep feeling miserable.

              Help is out there if you are willing to look for it.

              A lot of people try a few different therapists before they find the right one.

              It’s worth every penny if it helps you.

              Your feelings are NORMAL when you consider your background. There is not a single person who could go through what you’ve gone through and not have problems. In fact it sounds like you are doing way better than most people would.

              Sorry ifmi keep plugging Bradshaw’s book but he talks about the concept of toxic shame which I think may be what you are experiencing.

            • This is why I don’t like to share. I get everyone telling me I need to go deal with doctors for crazy people. That’s also ignoring the fact that therapists are a bunch of fraudulent hacks who can’t actually do anything. If I needed someone to parrot “what do you think” “how does that make you feel” etc, I’d record myself saying those things and then play them back. I don’t need to cough up $300/hour to listen to someone say that to me.

              You’re right; I don’t. All I need is to be more social, a date/girlfriend, and to get laid.

              Help? No, there really isn’t. I tried a few and each one was completely inept… and I was going to “good” ones. You know, the ones that don’t accept insurance and charge $300/hr?

            • Well only you can decide what you need to do to get where you want. It’s up to you.

            • Thanks for sharing your story with us man. Perhaps you should write it down, it sounds to me like it wants to come out.

            • And yet I feel nauseous for having shared… even with the relative anonymity of the internet. It does want to come out and I let it slip through the seams sometimes like just then probably because I don’t share it… not in real life anyway. Then, I inevitably feel guilty for sharing even parts of it like I do now. It’s my burden, and I shouldn’t be spilling it out on the internet… or anywhere else. No one cares about my life story and why should they? I’m just some random person who has done a terrible job of dealing with their own problems who goes onto the web to rage against the dying of the light.

            • Please don’t say that CJ. Go to Amazon and look up John Bradshaw’s book. It’s all about overcoming an abusive childhood. Your feelings are very normal given what you’ve been through.

            • Henry Vandenburgh says:

              Most of the women I’ve slept with I’ve known for at least a year first, in some cases several, so the “friend” thing hasn’t hurt me at all. There’ve been a pretty good number. I am moderately feminist. I support it, but believe that there are essential differences we aren’t paying enough attention to. I’ve never “neg”ed a woman, and don’t think you need to.

              I had one one-night stand. It sucked. Most of the PUA type techniques are practiced by the guys my students call “douchebags.”

  25. wing girl kim says:

    I’m a woman. I wrote about what women like. They like leadership. Alpha dog leadership. It’s different from gorilla leadership. And it doesn’t mean that men have to always lead. in fact every alpha male should have an alpha female. A woman wants her own alpha male. He doesn’t have to be the alpha male of society; just the alpha male of their relationship. And she becomes the alpha female of the relationship; that is, if it’s a healthy relationship. :)

  26. TGMP

    Can you stop bringing these charlatans in to write about game?

    If TGMP is going to continue publishing about game, it needs to hire someone that knows what it is.

  27. AlekNovy says:

    Question to CJ – I see a lot of stuff is running in circles without a lot of specifics. Can you answer a few questions honestly and exactly?

    1) In the past week, how many times did you go to a social event with a bunch of new people?
    2) How many new people did you talk to TOTAL and socialize with (not just women, people of all types)
    3) How many women did you chat with until you hit a common theme
    4) Of the women you hit a common interest with, to how many did you offer your contact (not ask for number, offer your contact so she can reach out for information about your common interest)

    *- Don’t avoid the questions by telling me why you could or couldn’t do something. Note that question 2 is about people in total, not just “hot women”.

    • #1. One. I went to a memorial day bbq and there were many new people there (though I did know about half the people)

      #2. Have an in depth conversation with or just say a few words? I’d say I had actual legitimate conversations with 4 new people, and spoke/socialized with about 8

      #3. 2

      #4. 0. One was married, one was dating, both were much older than me, and I didn’t find either one attractive. That’s probably why I was able to have an actual conversation with them. I can talk to women… as long as I have zero interest in them at all. As soon as I am interested, I cease to function and curl up into a little ball. I actually had a great relationship with a woman I totally wasn’t interested in in a relationship sense and then I became interested and I ceased being able to talk and have fun with her.

      I have a very small circle of friends, most of my friends are MUCH older (I’m 22 and the youngest friend I have that I hang out with is 30) and I live in the most competitive market dating-wise in the world. I’ve tried going to bars/clubs but I’m not at that point in terms of social ability where I can be at that level. I could quite easily be described as socially inept.

      I have a severe lack of self confidence. It stems from many things, but it is there nonetheless. Some of those things I can change, some I can’t. I believe every negative thing that others say about me, and none of the positive things. I believe those negative things because they are in line with how I consider myself. My accomplishments I view as failures because they have fallen far short of, what almost everyone would call, ridiculously unreasonable expectations I set for myself.

      I think the biggest problem for me socially is no one ever taught me anything. I didn’t have an older brother, I didn’t have a dad, I didn’t have a mentor, I didn’t have a family. I raised myself on the mean streets, and I did a damn good job. I kept my nose to the grindstone, I got a great education, I stayed out of trouble, but I didn’t do so well socially. Kids are cruel and I was an easy target since I had no family and I have breasts. Consequently, all of my friends are socially inept as well so I don’t have a smooth cool friend from whom I can learn to be cool.

      Looking at me from an outside perspective, I have a lot of things going for me, but I need some work. I need to improve my style a bit, I need to learn how to let myself be charming and not be afraid to be witty, and I need to not be apocalyptically afraid of being judged in a negative light by others. I’m always more concerned about what other people think than about what I think. I’ll get a haircut if the consensus is I would look better with shorter hair even if I don’t want one, I won’t buy a hat if other people think it doesn’t look good on me even if I like it, etc.

      • AlekNovy says:

        @CJ

        That’s waaaaaaay too little. It should be more like this on an average week.

        – Was out 3-4 times
        – Talked to and met a few dozen people each time

        The rest of the comment is just the story you’re telling yourself to stay where you are. Change that story.

        • How can I possibly go out that much and get in contact with that many people? I’d literally have to strike up a conversation with every random person on the train to and from work. Should I be striking up conversations at the supermarket? Go to the park and talk to people? Talk to random people on the street? I get asked directions all the time (actually usually by women now that I think about it) should I start having conversations with them as well?

          There was a cute girl who asked me for directions yesterday and she had a very nice accent. Should I have said after giving her directions something like, “I really like your accent, where are you from?”

          How should I start conversations? How should I keep them going? I basically feel really intimidated in general. Should I just go out there and try talking to everyone and expect that I’m just going to feel like an awkward weirdo and not worry about it?

          I actually did have a really good conversation with a pretty girl about a month ago (she started it) at the doctors office because I was reading a book and she commented on that and that actually flowed pretty well. She had a boyfriend (shame) but should I just be talking more?

          I guess I feel like people wouldn’t want to talk to me if I approached them. I also feel that way about smiling at women. (I’ve been told I’m a creep and I’m worried they’ll think I’m a creep if I smile at them)

          • AlekNovy says:

            All your questions and more will be answered in Brent Smith’s podcasts. Google for “brent smith podcasts 1-27”

            He discusses at length how to become the guy who can talk to everyone.

            Dude, I USED TO HAVE SOCIAL PHOBIA :) I’m not kidding. Like actual inability to talk to people in class even if you paid me to do it.

            Today I walk into a club/party/gallery, and by the end of the night I’ve befriended half the band, the owner, the managers, and like 10 groups of people.

            It’s all very do-able.

            BUT

            To answer your question – you don’t have to be at this level. What I suggested to you is much simpler. Just join a hobby, join some organizations.

            Like at yoga-class the turnover alone allows you to meet half the quota i mentioned… Just by talking to all the new yoga-people.

            Do 3-4 social activities a week and you meet the quota. You don’t have to do what I do and befriend everyone in the city – but the truth is, once you find out you can talk to 5 people a week, 50 seems like the next easy step.

            Its going from 0 to 5 that’s the biggest step. Look up what I told you… Google “brent smith podcasts 1-27” -> there’s 27 files, start listening over the next few weeks. Your life will change.

            • Sorry Alek, I have to intrupt this.

              C.J

              One of the ways a person develops self esteem is through whats reflected back at them. So if you are having unsatisfactory social experiences, going out and forcing yourself to have without looking at the route causes, could reinforce some of the problems you already have.

              What you need to do is work on yourself and get to the point where you are going to be able to engage someone, without the self esteem and negativity issues that are making communicating with people positively difficult in the first place, before you go out forcing yourself into situations where there is a high chance of you reinforcing your negative self beliefs.

            • AlekNovy says:

              Go to-what you explained is a common excuse people use to become hermits. I’ve done it… I know dozens of guys who used “working on themselves” as an excuse to become hermits. They call it the “inner-game hermit trap”.

              The guy who’s been sitting at home and doing inner-work for 3 years and hasn’t left the house – but he says its because he wants to get things right in his head first, lol.

              You can both go out AND work on yourself. There’s nothing wrong with forcing yourself to go out. What’s wrong is forcing yourself to do stuff that has too much negative feedback.

              This is why you chunk it down to the least negative stuff first – and then go up from there. Start with the safest stuff, the stuff that doesn’t have too much negative feedback.

              So, you’re doing these 2 at the same time

              – Forcing yourself to go out and progressively do more challenging things, but never doing anything more than “slight dis-comfortable”
              – At home working on yourself

            • Alek

              Sometimes its not about game you know?

              C.J needs some counselling from a professional, something more than a game routine of talking to x amount of people everyday until it becomes natural.

            • AlekNovy says:

              Sometimes its not about game you know?

              Whoever mentioned game ANYWHERE in the discussion I was having with CJ – stop trying to put everything into that game frame. You’re obsessed. We were discussing the development of a SOCIAL lifestyle. Its about SOCIALIZING.

              C.J needs some counselling from a professional

              And? What does THAT have to do with anything I said? Are you incapable of not straw-manning?

              I said that ONLY doing internal-work is an EXCUSE. Its forcing yourself to use all social opportunities as much as you can WHILE also at the same time doing internal work. Whether you do it at home or with a professional – I’ve seen a ton of people use it as an excuse. They’re perfectly capable of leaving the house, but they convince themselves they need 4 years of therapy before they do – which is just BS.

              a game routine of talking to x amount of people everyday until it becomes natural.

              You straw-manning freak…

              1) TALKING TO PEOPLE IS NOT A GAME ROUTINE you game-obsessed freak. I know its hard to figure this out, but people were purposefully working on talking to more people before your game-cult was invented.

              2) I never said “talk to x people until its natural”. I said do a mildly uncomfortable social thing until you’re comfortable with it, and move on from there.

              In practice, this would be for example singing up for a yoga class, toastmasters and a cooking class, and just forcing yourself to go to these classes regularly and look friendly (smile a lot)

              Once you’re comfortable with that, start trying to talk to the new people at the classes… etc… etc…

            • Alek

              No its you thats projecting.

              You are selling the beyond game game, and relating everything back to game. I’m advocating C.J has professional help for his issues, nothing to do with game and you think that I’m talking about “inner game”.

              Game is a bit like religion, you get guys following one, and guys like you saying that your one is the one true way.

              And advising C.J not to address his childhood abuse and so on is irresponsible.

            • AlekNovy says:

              And advising C.J not to address his childhood abuse and so on is irresponsible.

              THIS IS LIBEL. I never said such a thing. And after you accused me of it the first time, I said I never did say to NOT do mental work and clarified. AND YOU DID IT again.

              I said – don’t ONLY work on mental issues. Work on BOTH the mental and at the same time leave the house.

              and you think that I’m talking about “inner game”.

              No, I merely related to an anecdotal example since the topic is about ridiculing gamers. I said I know gamers who decide to work out the mental issues on their own, and so they do “inner-game” thing they call it (solving your mental issues) but they never leave the house.

            • I’ve been working on myself for years and that hasn’t really benefited me in any way socially.

            • AlekNovy says:

              I’ve been working on myself for years and that hasn’t really benefited me in any way socially.

              True, and that’s a common. Social success can’t be won by just doing just one component.

              You have to work on both the internal and the external. Just working on yourself, will get you nowhere if you’re not conciously doing CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy).

              This is a therapy designed to work on the external aspects of getting a better social life (among other things).

              This means that you conciously work on the external things you need as well. For example, a CBT professional would have you for example do this.

              1) First just sign up for as many social things as you can, and just appear and attend regularly (say 3-4 activities a week) & have an approachable energy, just smile a lot
              -> at the same time, the therapist would help you with any internal things that come up while you’re doing the external step

              2) Once number 1 is mastered, maybe the professional would have you then try to simply greet the new members as they sign up until this is natural etc… etc.

              Do you get the pattern? So – any work that involves just the internal without progressive external working on your social life will do nothing in and of itself.

              There are actual therapists who do work on improving social life. You want to find one of those. Remember, if he knows about getting social success, he will have an at least as big external component (what to do on the outside, how often, making plans for what to do etc).

            • I do have social phobia… and generalized anxiety disorder… and avoidant personality disorder… lmao.

              i’ll look into this stuff.

            • AlekNovy says:

              Look into CBT therapists as well. They’re really good at social anxiety etc…

            • I have worked with one in the past, actually. I found her, more or less, completely useless. She could tell me all sorts of stuff I should do but not how to actually do any of them.

            • AlekNovy says:

              I have worked with one in the past, actually. I found her, more or less, completely useless. She could tell me all sorts of stuff I should do but not how to actually do any of them.

              Finding a good therapist, I’ve heard is really hard. You have to do a lot of searching – which is why i keep pounding on the idea that you shouldn’t wait.

              Just figure out what to do on your own, while you’re searching for a good one. Don’t let it become another of your excuses.

              – I can’t socialize more because I’ve got issues
              – I can’t solve my issues because I haven’t found a good therapist

              Both are excuses because there’s a ton you can do. You can do a lot of stuff on your own internals while you’re looking for that therapist.

              You can also do a lot for your externals, on your own, even before your internals are “fixed”. Honestly, unless you meditate on a mountain-top 20 years, you’ll never be fully “fixed”, nobody except zen-monks is. So using this idea of waiting until you’re fixed to improve your social life is a common trap.

              In the mean-time

              – do progressive expansions of your comfort zone
              – just keep doing more and more and more social stuff, within a comfortable zone

              If right now all you can do is just smile more… Just focus on smiling a lot when out – and do it until it becomes naturally.

              Then, when you feel the next step is to just joing 3-4 activities, like yoga, whatever… Just do that, and just force yourself to go there and smile, until being out 3-4 times a week is normal – etc.. etc… etc…

      • Women struggle all the time with dating and meeting people, too. This isn’t an us-vs-them think like everyone makes it out to be.

        CJ: Go to therapy, dude. You clearly have some big issues to work through. After a couple of months you will be a different person. Trust me, I know. I went to therapy.

        EVERYONE SHOULD STOP WHINING AND GO TO THERAPY!

  28. Is the term “feminst critics” now flagged as spam?

  29. Femastrophysicist says:

    Three things that will help you get laid and date girls:

    1.) Women are people. They have interests and insecurities and stories about their lives, and they are all different. I personally love watching Top Gear UK and Tornado Chasers, and I can’t cook meat on a grill but am wonder woman with vegetables, grains and baked goods. It’s a lot easier to talk with a woman when you stop seeing her as prey or as some other alien species. In fact, women love sex as much as men do, and we think the male form is as exquisite as you find the female form.

    2.) Have confidence in yourself. Negging is kind of like trying to create a mask for this, but really it needs to come from within. Having a big ego and having bravado is not the same as being confident. Teddy Roosevelt was confident, but he didn’t have to make other people around him feel worse about themselves to make him feel better. True confidence never means “knocking someone else off their fancy pants pedestal”, it means being alright with who you are, flaws and everything. And confidence is intoxicating. Someone who is comfortable and confident in who they are will not feel threatening when they tell you they’d like to take you home, since you’ll immediately be able to tell that you answer will have little effect on their own feelings of self worth.

    3.) Be realistic. If you’re starting to fill out in the middle a bit and are now closer to a mid-life crisis than freshman year in college, then aiming to sleep with the college co-eds is a little out of place. If the only people you seem to want to be with are Megan Fox look-alikes when you aren’t the Megan Fox male equivalent (say, Brad Pitt or Antonio Banderas), then you will probably not score those girls. It’s alright, because there are tons and tons of amazing not-Megan-Fox-look-alikes women out there too, who have a lot in common with you and will absolutely love having sex with you. That’s the point, right? I have been attracted to conventionally attractive people and completely unconventionally attractive people. Just because Hollywood does not deem someone “attractive” does not mean that they are not the world’s hottest person to you. Unless you also broaden your horizons of sex partners, who are you to get angry when Megan Fox doesn’t?

    I’d say two out of three of these things are easy. Reminding yourself women are people is as easy as thinking about conversations with your sister, and lacking a female sibling, think about your mom. Finally, do you think Helen Mirren is attractrive? Susan Sarandon? If so, then you already see the beautiful realm of possibilities of attractiveness. These two together will help you find dates.

    Confidence has got to be the hardest of these things to acquire. If you feel your stomach do somersaults thinking about being rejected, either by women or for a promotion, then you’re not there yet. Loving what you do and who you are, flaws and all means that rejections are viewed as learning experiences. That comfort immediately makes you more attractive. I won’t lie and say there is some easy way to develop this – in my case? many years of therapy. But once it’s there it makes you a magnetic person. It makes you non-threatening, because I know saying no, or yes, is not going to have some deep impact on your self-worth. It probably also means sleeping with you will be AWESOME. So there it is.

    1. Treat women like people
    2. Gain a complete comfort with who you are
    3. Understand that there are tiers, and most likely, you will have the best luck, and be best off, remaining close to your own self-echelon. There are tons of women in the world who love sex and love having sex with men (and like playing Portal). Very few people (comparatively) look like Megan Fox.

    • AlekNovy says:

      “and handle rejection so badly relative to men.”

      Very true. I know we’re talking in generalities here, but women are a LOT worse about responding to rejection. Which is why I find it so funny when I read feminist theories and rants that try to ascribe angry rejectee-response to a “patriarchy” and “entitlement” and “male privilege”.

      If the few men who respond really badly to rejection are because of male-privilege, how do they explain the women who are much much much worse about rejection. A much bigger percentage flip out on rejection, and they do so in SCARY ways.

      • I’ve been posting with feminists for a few years now and have come to suspect that a lot of what the ideology says about men is projection. They project or blame everything thats negative about them, onto us.

    • AlekNovy says:

      Astro, I say the same things you say, but I don’t piss off guys when I say it. You know why? Because the way you phrased it is condescending and the language is very shaming.

      You didn’t do it on purpose. You’re coming from a good place. But still, you article, from a man’s perspective reads “If you’re not popular with women, you suck, and you’re screwed up, and you treat women like monsters – so stop being evil, and don’t be screwed up”.

  30. Femastrophysicist

    I think its funny when women femsplain to men about approaching and confidence while approaching because women generally don’t approach, have much experience with approaching (once or twice or five times doesn’t count) and handle rejection so badly relative to men.

    • And even when they do approach? They either have experience approaching men, or they have experience approaching women- as another woman.

      Not *nearly* the same dynamics as a man approaching a woman. At all.

  31. Not a big fan of this article, and I think it gets the point of the ‘neg’ wrong and the motivations of a pick-up artist wrong. My two bits:

    The ‘neg’, as I understand it, is intended to make a woman subconsciously desire approval; this of course requires the woman to pay attention to and otherwise interact with the PUA. On it’s own, the neg does nothing, it’s just a way to open the proceedings.

    Secondly, this is something that men who are “naturally” good at picking up women do all the time, yet somehow those who take a special class are the real d-bags because their doing with intention what more successful guys do on instinct.

    • Its also something that women do so much they are unaware of it, so much so that OP, who is also unaware of it, constructs men seeking the approval of women as the way it should be.

    • That doesn’t make me like the concept of negging any better… So some guy is trying to make me feel bad about myself as a way of manipulating me into needing his approval? Yuck. Life is hard enough. Why would I want to be with a man who is going to tear me down in order to make me dependent on him as a source of approval? That does not sound like the foundation of a healthy relationship to me.

      I do admit this technique probably works on insecure women with low self esteem. So you will probably get laid but the price will be the enormous contempt you feel for those women as a result of them being dumb enough to fall for your b.s. Essentially you will be a used car salesman exploiting the naive for your own pleasure. I guess that’s okay if you are willing to be that kind of person.

      • Susan

        “Thats no excuse”

        translation – its ok when women do it and when feminist professors say that men should seek the approval of women and attack the self esteem of men.

        Susan

        Women do it and a bunch of other much nefarious manipulative stuff. I was reading an article discussing the latest best seller female game book and it was straight up advocating psychological abuse.

        Negging, in male game, is supposed to be playful teasing and done properly women enjoy it, whats more as the other poster pointed out, men that are very popular with women, do it. Thats how it discussion of it came up in the first place.

        It really is hypocritical of feminists to come along and moralize try to control male game when men don’t try to control female game and generally women hold the cards dating wise, have game advise thats mainstream and genuinely abusive and are the ones most likely to be genuinely abusive and controlling in relationships.

        Oh and look at your post, its two paragraphs of negging and shaming of both men and women.

        Male game also teaches men about the sexual hypocrisy and double standards that women hold.

        • Here Susan, from Hugos source.

          “A neg is not a light insult wrapped in a compliment, nor is it being mean for mean’s sake.

          The real definition of a neg (straight from the horse’s mouth): A neg is active disqualification. It shows that you aren’t hitting on a particular woman and don’t have interest in her *at that particular moment*. You’re not being mean, per se, you’re telling her that she does not meet your standards of attractiveness.

          It isn’t a direct comment, either. When you’re engaging a group you can “toss it like a pebble” at her or towards her social circle.

          Many, many guys use this the wrong way, and end up leaving people with a bad taste in their mouth. To be used by licensed professionals, only.
          A standard neg:

          “You and I would never get along. We’re too similar. You’d never take my sh*t, and I’d never take yours.”

          I think that quote is from a well know PUA, as you can see, its nowhere near as abusive as female game.

          • Sending the message “you don’t meet my standards of attractiveness” seems pretty mean to me. I realize that making lame compliments doesn’t work, but purposely playing on someone’s insecurties to build yourself up seems wrong. If women do it to men, it is also wrong when they do it. (Although honestly I don’t think most women intentionally try to hurt men’s feelings though men may take it that way when they are rejected.) I don’t know. Maybe I just don’t get all these complaints from men about women holding all the cards and how men have no power in relationships. Men get to choose, women have to wait around to be chosen, which is not very empowering except for maybe the top 10% of women who everyone is chasing. But I also realize that for PUA’s, women who are not perfect 10’s don’t exist so their views are probably skewed. The other 90% of women can buy cats.

            • If women are not content with having to wait until being chosen, they are free to initiate pick ups as well. I wonder what kind of world we would live in then.

            • Honestly, I wish I could do that, but it’s really not a feasible solution in most instances. This is the problem. If I just want a casual hookup, yeah, I suppose I could hit on a guy and ask him for sex. He might say yes. But all I’m going to get out of it is casual sex, which is fine as far as that goes, I guess, but usually that’s not what I’m looking for. I’m usually looking to get to know someone. Not necessarily like “I’m going to marry this guy” but as someone I might want to spend time getting to know. Go on a few fun dates and so on. See who he is as a person. Hopefully he’ll feel the same way about me. Getting casual sex from a guy tells me absolutely nothing about whether he is really interested or not. He may have just seen me as an opportunity for sex. Also, now I’ve proven to him I’m a total slut, so he probably has no respect for me and would never be interested in getting to know me better. Or he might just see me as a booty call in the future.

              Again, I’m sure there are women who want casual hookups but that’s not what I’m looking for in my interactions with men.

              Finally, as a woman who is a little older and not particularly “hot,” I assume that I’m not going to attract attention from a ton of guys. If a guy doesn’t express interest, my general conclusion is that he’s not interested. in that case, why would I waste time trying to pick him up? Why hit on someone who isn’t attracted to me? If I wait for the guy to express interest, at least I know he must feel some attraction so I’m halfway there.

            • If you don’t attract attention that is normaly an indication that you have to do the initiating yourself. This is something men have always faced. Picking up is a game where one loses most of the time.

            • AlekNovy says:

              @Susan

              1) that’s not true – casual sex can lead to more and is a GREAT way to get to know a person – really, truly. Going on dates is FAKE. Doing casual sex with someone you get to know the true person. Going on dates is both of you putting on a persona

              2) Its a numbers game, duh. Welcome to reality lol. Of course not every guy you’re gonna hookup with is gonna turn into something serious. There’s nothing wrong with that.

              Do you dislike sex or something? Because what’s wrong with enjoying a lot of different sex until the right guy comes along, i hear its better than dildoes… So, doing casual sex with different guys you’ve initiated with, is a much better option than waiting for the right guy to fall out of the sky.

              At least when you initiate, you meet 90% of your criteria, and you’re only hooking up with guys who already fit 90% of your criteria. If you wait around for guys to initiate, most of the time its gonna be guys who don’t even fit 5% of your criteria, lol :d so… Yeah, doesn’t make sense to me. Why would you spend so long waiting till an even half-decent prospect comes along? Isn’t it better to initiate with the decent prospects yourself? Doesn’t that increases your odds of finding a perfect one?

            • I don’t have a problem with sex, I’ve had one night stands and casual hookups. That’s why I know it’s not what want. I only really enjoy sex when I feel an emotional connection and trust. I can’t feel that with a random guy I just picked up, no matter how physically attractive he might be. Also, you didn’t address the slut issue. I don’t lie that word but it is not something that is possible to ignore. I firmly believe that the quickest way to ruin any potential for a relationship with a guy is too have casual sex with him. I’m not saying that casual hookups never lead to a relationship, but as a woman, you are running g a serious risk that the guy will view you as the village bicycle, everyone’s had a ride, to quote Austin Powers.

            • Sarah

              “Men get to chose, women have to wait to be chosen”

              Thats not how it works at all, men approach with a high rejection rate, women chose rejecting most men that approach them”.

              And you can quite easily approach men, and experience a much higher success rate than men do.

            • AlekNovy says:

              “And you can quite easily approach men, and experience a much higher success rate than men do.”

              That’s very true, and objectively and undeniably provable, yet most women chose to form their arguments and beliefs as-if it wasn’t.

              Its an objective fact that women do get as much as 10x better results when they do approaching, initiating sex, initiating dates, calling first etc. Yet all discussions proceed as if women don’t.

            • As I’ve said, most of what PUa’s say about women having all the power applies to a minority of highly attractive women. We could call them alpha females, to turn around PUA jargon. Beta females, if you want to call them that, have no more power than so-called beta males. Beta females get ignored rather than rejected outright but it is the same thing. Going to a social event where not one guy wants to talk to you feels like a complete rejection for the female involved. This is something men really don’t uderstand because they only see the alpha females. The beta females and what they experience is invisible. If beta females do approach guys and try to initiate, they will get rejected just as often as beta males get rejected.

            • AlekNovy says:

              Beta females, if you want to call them that, have no more power than so-called beta males. Beta females get ignored rather than rejected outright but it is the same thing

              No its not. A “beta female” will only get asked out twice a year instead of twice a month, but she still gets asked out and is offered love, appreciation etc…

              You compare a small number to a zero. The beta guy has zero, the beta girl only has a relatively smaller number than the alpha girl, but a zero is infinitely small, so its not a fair comparison.

              Going to a social event where not one guy wants to talk to you feels like a complete rejection for the female involved.

              I’ve heard this distinction so many times and I get OFFENDED each time. We know that women are used to their privilege, but rubbing it in men’s faces like this is just downright insulting. For 2 reasons.

              1) You say “no man wants to talk to you” which is SEVERELY misleading statement… Because women who say this do not try to talk to men and get rebuffed, they simply don’t get approached. Even the hottest girls don’t get approached most of the time.

              2) The false equivalency is downright insulting. Saying that a man not taking the risk of you rejecting ad humiliating him = is equal to = being rejected and humiliated is just insulting.

              By the logic of that claim, the average guy rejects and humiliates 36,500 women in a YEAR… Because this is how many we pass by on an average day without appraching them.

              See the double bind there? If guys approach every woman they’re seen as idiotic freaks, but if they don’t, they’re seen as rejecting women.

              If beta females do approach guys and try to initiate, they will get rejected just as often as beta males get rejected.

              THATS A PURE LIE – Sorry for shouting, but that’s just downright insulting in how untrue it is.

              The beta girl not only will not get rebuffed, she can even get dates most of the time. Men just don’t reject women anywhere near as often.

              Maybe if she approached celebrities she might see some, but no, even those guys will be nice to her at least. Men just simply are much nicer about being approached – they don’t rebuff women.

            • Look, you don’t know anything about the experience of being a woman. Like most guys, you have a fantasy about what life is like for women which is based on highly attractive women, who are the only women in your consciousness. Women get rebuffed all the time, sometimes cruelly. I know women who are great, funny, successful people who haven’t had a date in years. Why? Because they aren’t hot looking. And for that matter, I don’t think one or two dates a year qualifies as a successful or satisfying romantic life.

              Don’t denigrate the feelings or life experience of people you know nothing about. You would be the first to tell me I know nothing about being a man and you are right. I’m not saying things aren’t difficult for men but don’t think things are easy for women. You have that totally wrong.

            • I think these statements are quite entertaining after having visited yet another feminist site where women claim to know everything about what motivates men, what men think and how men live their lives.

              So, in essence. Men should accept they can’t know what life is like for a woman, yet somehow feminist women know everything about what life is like for men. There is something rather fishy in this line of argument.

            • 8of10, if you read my comment I acknowledged I don’t know what male experience is like. Do you think men have some special powers of insight into what women experience?

              The point is, dating is hard for everybody. Men and women both have struggles. Some struggles are similar and some are different. It isn’t a competition to prove that one gender is worse off than the other in the dating market.

              FYI, I read and comment on articles like this because I’m interested in understanding men better. I’m not over on feminist websites because I don’t learn anything there.

            • Susan, who has the power: the guy being iapplying for a job, or the one doing the interview?

              Sure, the interviewer gets to “pick” which job they apply for (which girl to hit on) but after that? It’s all in the employer/interviewer’s hands.

          • p.s. I was talking to a guy once (he approached me in a public place) and he asked me “how old are you?”. I told him I was 26. (This was a few years ago — I’m a bit older now LOL). He said, “Really? I would have guessed 30.” Ouch! I told him I had to be somewhere and went home and spent the next hour looking for lines in my face. Seriously, it made me feel like crap. I thought about that comment for literally years. In fact, here I am talking about it now.

            I assume that was a “neg” but it didn’t make me feel favorably inclined to get to know that guy.

            • Susan

              You just claimed that women that are not perfect 10s dont exist for PUAs, then you said someone negged you. So are you saying that you are a perfect 10 or are you admitting that you made an inaccurate generalization?

              Anyway, your story about the wrinkles, thats pretty funny and yeah Id say that was probably supposed to be a neg, used the wrong way, I don’t think the idea of the neg is wrong, but it can be misunderstood and misused, as in that case.

              Its not commonly used, or not supposed to be anyway. I treat game like I do spirituality and psychology, I take what I like for personal use and disguard the rest and I generally see it as a good thing, there is lots to be learned from it.

              TGMP and certain feminists, have an agenda to paint it as being inherently bad and something that its not, thats pretty much why I’m posting in defense of it, because these people are dishonest and have a nefarious agenda when it comes to the mens equality movement.

            • I was 26, I’d been spending a lot of time at then gym that summer and I think the light was bad. LOL. So no I’m not a perfect 10 and wasnt then, although I probably was looking my best that summer compared to other times in my life.

              This was a few years ago, before anyone had heard of PUA training or techniques. I assume he was a “natural” in that case.

              I’ve read quite a bit about what’s now known as pickup artistry and yes, it does seem to be heavily skewed towards perfect 10’s and hot babes. All the emphasis on women having power I think relates to a minority of women who have a lot of options because they are extremely attractive. The majority of women have relatively little power in the dating market in my view because men are not I retested and overlook them.

              Even at 26, I had difficulties in that area because I was shy, nerdy, and “too smart,” I didn’t like rolling myself up or wearing a lot of makeup or revealing clothes (still don’t). So, yeah, well men hit on me once and awhile, it wasn’t exactly a frequent experience.

            • The oneness of Ju Ju says:

              Susan

              You are on another thread saying that when you signal that you show your cleavage, you can be hit on 10 times in an evening, thats more times than a lower ranking male will be hit on in his life time.

              And, you cant just make up a new reality when it suits, like that. Whatever about lying, its frustrating for men in gender type debate, who will generally try debate in good faith trying to converse with feminists, who generally won’t, and it only serves to reinforce negative stereotypes about feminists..

            • My point on the other thread was that I get way, way more attention by showing cleavage, when I don’t show cleavage I get virtually no attention ever. The difference is dramatic.

              I’ve never said I never get hit on. I occasionally get hit on. when I was younger I got hit on more, except during a period of my life where I was 60 pounds overweight, at which time I never ever got hit on EVER, not even by heavy guys (someone commented upthread that fat women get attention from fat guys but that is not true at all).

              The point I am trying to make is that the PUA’s are wrong when they keep,saying women have all this power in the dating realm. That’s only true of some women. Plenty of women never get dates, never get hit on and never get the slightest interest from men.

            • Oneness of Ju Ju says:

              On this thread you said you are rarely hit on.

              On the other you said that you can get hit on 10 times in one night

              This is why your movement is losing all its credibility, too many lies.

            • On the other thread, I said I rarely get hit on unless I show a lot of cleavage, however I’m not comfortable doing that so — I rarely get hit on.

              Yes, I suppose I could wear low cut tops every where but I don’t want to do that.

              So men bitching that women have all this sexual power — I’m one of the ones they are ignoring while they chase after the women in skimpy tops. My point is they are only considering a minority of women — the highly attractive ones who flaunt their sexuality

              Besides women who aren’t comfortable with turning themselves into walking sex objects, there are also older women, fatter women, women who aren’t pretty, disabled women etc. Who have very little if any sexual power – just like so called beta males.

              I’m not saying men have to pursue any women they aren’t attracted to, but if you think all women are demons wielding vast sexual powers over poor men, you are just wrong.

      • I get your queasiness with all of this Susan – I don’t really have enough knowledge on the topic of PUA’s, though instinctually, it all seems a bit off. But instinctually, I possess an inbred aversion to the use of “tactics” and their application to love, sexuality, romance and all those fine and pretty things. Rationally though, I know that all actions are in one way or another, a tactic, and romanticizing one over another is nothing more than a sleight of hand. Then again, not all things (tactics) are equal, so that too should be part of the conversation.

        Just last week, I quipped sarcastically to this one dude, who was prancing about, puffing his chest, something along the lines of…. “you probably still live in your mother’s basement…don’t you”

        He was very cute and charming, though pea-cocking a little too much for my then tolerance level. In light of this discussion, it looks like I negged him…

        • Ah Alissa, thanks so much for demonstrating that negging is standard operating procedure for women. All you feminists should go here for an unbiased opinion of game.

          htt p://www.feministcritics.org/blog/about/seduction-communitypickup-artists/

          Rather than listening to the charlatans that write about it for TGMP.

  32. Un-good man says:

    Alek

    “No, I merely related to an anecdotal example since the topic is about ridiculing gamers. I said I know gamers who decide to work out the mental issues on their own, and so they do “inner-game” thing they call it (solving your mental issues) but they never leave the house.”

    Yeah, you relating things that are being said that aren’t about game, to game, you are deep in game land and just think that you are not.

    Also, you claimed just going out and socializing without an agenda to pick up is rare, thats not true. Ive often done it, my social scene when I was regularly pubbing and clubbing was a group just socializing together, your belief that everyone is always on the pick up and that socializing normally is some new idea comes from the fact that you have been in game land for so long, so long that you think that not being a ladies man is something new.

    There are plenty of “mans men”, and “people men” out there, you just wont meet too many of them if you are deep in the gaming community for a decade.

    I guess your idea is to not be a “ladies man”, or a “mans man” and be a people person.

    • AlekNovy says:

      Also, you claimed just going out and socializing without an agenda to pick up is rare

      No I didn’t. You have reading comprehension problems. I said its rare for men to INTERACT with a woman they’re INTERESTED in without an agenda – no matter how they met her.

      I didn’t say men don’t leave the house without an agenda – where did I say this. You guys are like huge projection machines.

      , your belief that everyone is always on the pick up and that socializing normally is some new idea comes from the fact that you have been in game land for so long, so long that you think that not being a ladies man is something new.

      No dude…. It IS a new thing to NOT pursue women you’re interested in sexually. Most men (99%) of the population, when they meet a woman they’re interested in – they immediatelly think in terms of “what do I do to get her, how do I get a date with her, how do I impress her, do I buy her flowers, do I ask her out, etc”

      • Ok

        So you as saying that when men meet women that they are sexually interested in, they should just act naturally and go with flow instead of thinking of traditional role playing.

        Sorry bud, this isn’t new. When I was out clubbing and pubbing and going to after parties, and that was in non meat venues, and there is a clear distinction between pubs and clubs where people go to get drunk and pick up and places that are more about the music and the culture, the sort of interaction you are talking about was not uncommon, not to me anyway. Guys that would be all as you describe, would have been seen as “not cool”.

        This is in Europe though, where dating rituals are less pronounced and there is less complexity surrounding dating.

        • AlekNovy says:

          I’m in europe… You and your strawmans… sigh…

          distinction between pubs and clubs where people go to get drunk and pick up and places that are more about the music and the culture, the sort of interaction you are talking about was not uncommon, not to me anyway. Guys that would be all as you describe, would have been seen as “not cool”.

          Dude, do you have a mental block that prevents you from reading what I’m saying. I DID NOT SAY ANY of the things you’re telling me doesn’t happen. I DID NOT SAY —> that guys go around and hit on random women. You seem to be reading that – you’re READING things I’m not saying.

          WHAT I AM SAYING IS: When men MEET a woman they’re interested in, they start PURSUING her and start thinking of an agenda.

          I didn’t say men pursue every woman on the planet. I didn’t say most guys run around hitting on random women. I didn’t say that guys run around trying to pick up everything in sight. – yet that’s what you’re answering in regards to.

          Men NEVER let a woman pursue them – EVER. Most guys, if they’re interested in a woman and are interested in her

          – they either attempt to get her
          – or decide they have no chance

          If they try to get her, they start thinking of things to do and say in order to GET her to like them. Make sense? Or are you again going to answer “nah dude, most guys don’t hit on everyone in the street”

  33. Richard Aubrey says:

    Let’s make an analogy: If you, your therapist, or your friends, insist you man up and actually jump out of an airplane–the concept of which terrifies you–and you try, there will be physical manifestations of your fear. High blood pressure, incoherent thinking, pale face, staring eyes, racing pulse, wondering if you’re going to piss your pants. But, possibly with a shove from your instructor, you jump.
    Success. You’ve jumped and you’ve conquered your fears. The presumption is that you will jump, and, having jumped, feel you’ve succeeded, and the next time will be easier….
    Let’s say, instead, you’re pushed into approaching a woman. The physical manifestations of your fear–see above–guarantee you’ll fail.
    Simply saying go for it has its downsides.
    PUA, negging or anything else, has its place since there’s NOTHING ELSE out there. If somebody thinks of a better way, you could make a lot of money.
    Start right in.

  34. Pickup is an interesting problem… and a perfect example of how Feminism Can Be Good For Men. PU exists because, as many have pointed out, there exists this idea that Men should be naturally good at attracting women, or they are “losers” or “creeps.” This is not a problem caused by “superior” women harshly judging men, but rather the stringent gender roles imposed on both men and women (Man is aggressive pursuer, Woman is passive target etc.) Restricting women to a “passive” role in seduction naturally requires men to occupy the opposite. The negative gender roles mutually reinforce.

    And these roles leave many man feeling inadequate – they lack the skills they “should have naturally as a Man” – which creates a niche which is filled by pickup programs teaching the men those skills. I think there is a genuine need to teach People explicitly about the best ways to attract someone they’re interested in. (Slight tangent: I disagree with the characterization of Pickup as “fake” – this just plays into the construct that says Men should naturally know how to do these things. You need some training wheels to learn any new skill.) It’s a good skill set to have. However, both Cosmo tips and PUA tips play on existing roles and misogynist stereotypes, and both portray dating and sexuality as blue vs. pink zero sum game… which leads to the many problems with pickup/dating guides in general.

    Pickup, as it exists, is a Bad Thing. Under the bullshit and misogyny, there are some good techniques which don’t abuse a woman’s self esteem. But even those are delivered with the zero sum narrative. But if pickup (in its current form) goes away, then there’s still that niche… so I’ll end with a question:

    What should we teach men who want to be better at attracting the people they’re attracted to?

    • Actually Hugo himself on his blog talked about how other men should help the unfortunate men. I am still waiting for Hugo to dish out anything that isn’t a long list of things that shouldn’t be done, or even start telling women that they should do the initiating for once.

      • dungone says:

        That’s because the only thing that Hugo really has to offer is for men to stick to their predefined gender roles and play by the rules.

        • AlekNovy says:

          That’s because the only thing that Hugo really has to offer is for men to stick to their predefined gender roles and play by the rules.

          And what’s worse – if you’re not naturally good at the pre-defined gender-roles, hugo will try to shame you and say that makes you a really really bad person.

          The extremely sucky thing about the pre-defined gender roles is that you can only be good at them if you’ve only been good at them since forever – you can’t become good at the later in life. Mostly because you need to be in the top 5% of men when it comes to reading women’s intentions etc – and that part is biological.

          Women in the past used to be forgiving if you were less than amazing in the traditional “dating” script – but today, anything less than absolute proficiency taints you as bad, evil, idiot, ahole etc…

          And its also catch 22 – men’t can’t become proficient at the old scripts, because to become proficient, you need to do something with some success. But they’re not afforded success, because they’re not proficient.

        • I would be content if Hugo realized that he is speaking from an extremely privileged position. I haven’t had a single date in my entire life. When Hugo was my age, he was well into wrecking his second marriage.

    • dungone says:

      I don’t think it’s enough to “give men the skills” because those skills come from a very complex system of rewards and status symbols that are granted throughout a lifetime of socialization. And part of that whole package are a set of strict gender roles and predefined courting rituals that we are all heavily vested in. And part of that socialization seems to say that women are virtuous and that it’s men’s role to court women by living up to a “worthy” set of standards. I went to see Mozart’s The Abduction from the Seraglio and I walked out with a sick feeling in my gut because that’s exactly what that opera conveyed. 230 years and nothing’s changed.

      We are all heavily vested in our gender roles and we want to think that if we have a beautiful wife, we “earned” her and if we have a husband then he’s really as “successful” as he seems. Pickup, whether it works or not, is all about subverting those gender roles by finding their inherent flaws. It’s kind of like counting cards at Blackjack. If it works, the only way to prevent it is to forbid anyone from doing it.

      • “We are all heavily vested in our gender roles and we want to think that if we have a beautiful wife, we “earned” her and if we have a husband then he’s really as “successful” as he seems. Pickup, whether it works or not, is all about subverting those gender roles by finding their inherent flaws”.

        Great quote, and I think thats why feminists find game so intimidating and want to control it. How subversive it is to female privilege.

        • “Subverting” is not equivalent to “exploiting,” and I think that Pickup is more the latter. If gender roles were being subverted, then pickup would be fundamentally unable to make generalizations based on gender – pickup, if it truly subverted and dismantled gender roles, would be gender neutral – a goal, I think, that would be worthwhile. I really think it’d be possible to write a useful guide to dating/seduction that works and applies equally regardless of your gender or orientation.

          An example of how Pickup supports gender stereotypy – it relies heavily on evolutionary psychology texts such as “The Red Queen” for support of its ideas. Evolutionary Psychology is scientifically dubious as its hypotheses are unprovable by experimentation because you can never control for “culture” as a variable, and indeed, because the events it labels as causal happened in the past and as such can only be modelled or inferred, but never actually empirically tested, and totally fails to acknowledge more parsimonious accounts of how such behaviour might be acquired (For example, selection by consequences in the lifetime of the organism.)

          • I so much agree with you about the misunderstanding of evolutionary psychology. For example I always see PUA’s citing Richard Dawkins as an evolutionary psychologist when he is actually an evolutionary BIOLOGIST. And they cite The Selfish Gene as some sort of Bible when I doubt any of them have read it, much less understood it. Dawkins himself has said that he’s dismayed that people use his theories as support for the idea that human beings are, or should be, selfish, which is essentially social darwinism. Genes are selfish; people can be kind, generous and altruistic; evolution supports both (I.e. Evolution can favor altruism)

          • dungone says:

            Anthony, exploitation and subversion are not mutually exclusive. The correct term depends on context. If you’re referring to attempts (scientific or not) to identify and exploit psychological differences between the sexes, you’re talking about gender traits. Those aren’t the same thing as gender roles, which are culturally defined, and so therefore one can exploit gender traits in order to subvert gender roles. Much of Pickup could be nonsensical in another context, such as a culture that does prearranged marriages. It may not have gained prominence had we lived in a healthier society that paid attention to everything from bullying to the massive wealth inequality, factors that create a cultural hegemony which is then reinforced by almost every aspect of our gender roles. For better or worse pickup is about turning that cultural hegemony upside-down, promising “undateable” classes of men to find a way out of their predicament. They’re trying everything from male makeup and feather boas to the asteisms known as “negs”, and how can anyone who looks at it claim that it doesn’t undermine gender roles? It just doesn’t do it the way feminists had envisioned. And some of them are misogynist, but so what? You can be misogynist and still subvert gender roles just as you can be a feminist and still be a total bigot.

    • AlekNovy says:

      What should we teach men who want to be better at attracting the people they’re attracted to?

      I think we should just continue asking this question until we get an answer. These guys, and especially hugo always just post a big list of DONT’S, or when they do post DO’s – they’re vague, such as “well, just be good to women, and don’t be an idiot”.

      • Been mulling this a lot since yesterday, and I’ve written a couple of things that I’ve either deleted or filed away as “way too long and only just started already.”

        One of the problems with a lot of dating advice is that it is of the form “Women like…” and “Men like…” Not only does this reinforce stereotypes which are problematic anyway, they’re only targeted at most people of that gender in your culture if they even work. And most effective on the most average of men/women (in the statistical sense.) So… maybe an improvement for many, but faaar from ideal.

        What’s needed is gender neutral advice that translates into actual behaviours that people can learn. I think the gender neutral categories for this ought to be:
        1) Recognize what is Good about you as a potential partner.
        2) Recognize what you find to be Good in a partner. Neither (1) nor (2) need be a static list. Self is a fluid thing, and defined by context. But try to make your definition of Good something you can be sincere and proud of, that does not require the approval nor the putting down of another.
        3) Find a person that has (2) and communicate (1) effectively. Hopefully that person does the same, and if you are well matched, things will proceed.
        4) If things do not proceed, that’s alright, because you are centred in what is good about you, and realise that even though you like who you are, no-one else is required to do so. Part amiably.

        Now, acheiving all that… welll… erm. (1) and (2) require one to learn self knowledge. Tough thing, but there’s a skill set we could all afford to have.

        (3) Requires both a) Finding A Person with Certain Traits and b) Communicating your attractiveness effectively to them.

        So there’s a refined question:

        How does one
        a) Find and recognize a person he would be attracted to?
        b) Communicate his Interest and his Value
        c) Cope with mutual incompatibility? (Deliberate use of an alternative to “rejection.”)

        I think these are very learnable skills. All of them, but particularly a-c. And I don’t think these skills need to take the form of “Women like…” How about “To acheive a), a person should…”

  35. “Pick up as it exists is a bad thing”

    No, its not. Nor should a political movement based on lies and manipulations control human dating. Whats more feminism creates the emasculated men and the nice guys turned nasty that contribute much of the misogny that is there in the PUA community.

    Also, by your own logic and qualifications both female game and feminism are “Bad Things” and should go because of the bullshit and misandry.

    In Sweden where feminism is more advanced, women complain that of they didn’t make the first move and lead the conversations that nothing would happen so the gender roles that feminism seeks to enforce, aren’t ideal either.

    Women already produce a surplus of game advise for women that often advocates psychological abuse and male game advice, even though its not been around as long, is far more intelligent and comprehensive.

    Feminism is a gynocentric movement populated by little girls who think that they are entitled to “have it all” and gynocentric self loathing men that is experiencing the early stages of a large back lash, wanting to control the male gaming community and dating advise, should be the least of its worries.

    All that said, feminism is more then welcome to encourage women to approach men, but from what Ive seen coming from the feminists that write about game here, their agenda is to maintain the old fashioned gender roles, with the woman situated as the chooser.

    • “In Sweden where feminism is more advanced, women complain that of they didn’t make the first move and lead the conversations that nothing would happen so the gender roles that feminism seeks to enforce, aren’t ideal either.”
      Dude, I live in Sweden. I have seen nothing of these claims that you make.

      • Hello 8of10, Im sorry for making generalisations like that. I’m basing my opinions on the following bits that I have read.
        “Frustrated, I decided to call an expert: Swedish author and dating guru Marie Hagberg… “You expect a guy to make the first move, but in Sweden he won’t unless he’s really drunk,” Hagberg said… “Men here are very timid,”… But why don’t they pay? “Men think women earn almost as much as they do, so why should they pay? I think that’s bullshit,” she said…
        “I slowly start to realize that a Swedish man on a first date is like a lost puppy trying to find his way. He knows not how to approach a lady, carry a conversation, or to offer to pay. Poor things. I almost feel sorry for them. And I couldn’t help but wonder what could be responsible for stunting the dating intelligence of Swedish men so severely. Hagberg’s answer catches me off guard. “It has to do with our social welfare system,” she exclaims… “Here nobody is supposed to take care of their own life or future and people consider the government responsible for everything. That has coloured the world of dating, and gone overboard.”
        ht tp://lastfirstdate.com/2010/cultural-differences-in-the-dating-world/

        “With gender equality comes further dating awkwardness: By American standards, Swedish men are painfully slow to make the first romantic move. “Men treat women like friends,” Anna-Maria says. “They rarely chat you up, unless they’re drunk.” Instead, Anna-Maria often does the asking herself. “Sure, I’d like to be chased, but men have grown lazy in Sweden. So I take the initiative. Though I have to say, it detracts from the sexual intrigue.”
        htt p://alternateturquoise.blogspot.com/2008/06/sweden-best-place-for-women-to-live.html

        So with that situation, and Marcotte and Schyyzer promoting the traditional roles and the idea that women are superior, feminism isnt offering any solutions.

        Here’s another relevent article. “Why feminism is the anti viagra”
        htt p://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/billion-wicked-thoughts/201104/why-feminism-is-the-anti-viagra

        • BTW

          I disagree with the prostitutive attitude of the american woman in the first article I quoted.

        • That swedish dating coach sounds a lot like a conservative loon. I can understand that a person like that doesn’t like the current dating climate in Sweden.

          • 8of10

            I think that the American woman with her blend of prostitution, misandry, condensation and disrespect comes off the worst of the three and Eda Von Sydow comes off very self centered but is hardly a Conservative figure and she is saying pretty much the same thing as the Swedish Dating Marie Hagberg, with the exception of saying that the welfare state is whats effecting behaviour, the blog post that features Eda Von Sydow cites “gender equality” as the source so I think that both are pointing to the feminist state as the reason, just one is saying it more directly than the other.

            I think its interesting where the issues overlap, the creation of the “nice guy” who is not assertive is present in both cultures and you can see the contempt the american woman has for the nice guy, that we have been discussing here on the thread.

        • But isn’t this what you all have been saying you want – women initiate, men can be passive?

    • “Whats more feminism creates the emasculated men and the nice guys turned nasty that contribute much of the misogny that is there in the PUA community.”

      I’d argue that patriarchal gender roles create these men. The negative female gender roles that feminism most famously target are not the whole picture – the patriarchal society define women and men as opposites, and as such, strict female gender roles require an opposite in the male. Most of these opposites are Good for Men, but it also paints a picture of “real men” – who, amongst many other things, should be naturally able to attract women, initiate contact, and generally strive to be “alpha.” This is why we have “emasculated” men and “nice guys turned nasty.” (guys who are unhappy because they place value on a gender image as unattainable to most as the “Perfect 10 Supermodel” is for women.) Even the word emasculated evokes that image of a losable manhood. Not a fun gender role, right? Not feminism’s fault. It was there already. All feminism did was convince a whole lot of men and women that that kind of gender role should be done away with.

      “Also, by your own logic and qualifications both female game and feminism are “Bad Things” and should go because of the bullshit and misandry”

      If by “female game” you mean dating guides the likes of which are printed in Cosmo, then Hell Yes. File under “Supporting the same gender role stereotypy as Pickup.”

      And as for Feminism… It’s not a zero sum game. Feminism is trying to deconstruct gender roles that constrain and hurt both men and women.

      • I disagree.

        The emasculated male is a product of feminism, lack of father figures who have bee driven out of the family, degenerated by feminist social engineering and emasculating women that have been taught to disrespect men and masculinity create emasculated men, then women in the culture reject emasculated men and call them losers and creeps while attacking value to men that have retained healthy masculinity.

        And Patriarchy theory is pretty much discredited now anyway isn’t it?

        I find feminists very similar to followers of other religions, everything is explained in their holy scripture.

        And when feminists are campaigning to shut down womens prisons and remove the presumption of innocence for men and a host of other examples I can give, it is a zero sum game. The outcome of feminism is all people that are born with a male genes are born criminals.

        Feminism, underneath the equality rhetoric is a zer

        • o sum game for men, its a human rights issue.

        • Feminists are:

          People who have privilege based on gender, who are using that power to subjugate, demean, and victimize those not of that gender, specifically using social construction/engineering to create gender roles that weaken their victims – In this instance, the roles of the Omega/ Beta men who are emasculated, and then demeaned and mocked for their weakness. The most powerful way they demean these men (who are in the majority) is with reference to a rare, and mostly unattainable standard of Masculinity (true Alphas, whom the women claim to loathe but simultaneously desire.)

          This power is also used to manipulate political structures to perpetuate that power, such as diminishing the legal rights of men, particularly with regard to their families, and also to use socially supported blame as a weapon to make it impossible for them to win in cases involving sexual assault.

          I think that’s a fair description of the scenario you are presenting, right?

          I would suggest that then, the most powerful way to defeat such an enemy would be to deconstruct gender roles and power structures based on them, and free men from the constraints of this woman-imposed version of manhood, allowing each individual to define his own gender and what that means as he wishes, free from the matriarchal power structures reinforced by society. Certainly, outright aggression against the oppressors won’t work, because they hold the power. It’s only by changing the discourse that GIVES them that power that we can gain equal rights for victims of gender-related discrimination.

          Now, stop for a moment. Realise that that paragraph is precisely the goal of Feminism, and that with a few word swaps, you would be describing the struggle of womens rights. Consider that the last paragraph describes a pretty good world for everyone. And consider that if Feminism is as you think it is in reality, then the best way to combat this evil feminism is to create a movement that closely resembles an Ideal Feminism. Perhaps the label of Feminism should not apply to this kind of movement, but its goals would be remarkably similar.

          I believe that there a lot of problems men in the 21st century have to face, that are related to gender roles and how they damage men. You and I disagree fundamentally on who is to blame. But can you accept that the methods by which these things can be set to rights actually result in a movement that resembles an Ideal Feminism? One that would be best served by bringing together people of all genders to collectively dismantle the systems that oppress and constrain us all and privileges some above others?

        • Go to:
          Why do you even bother pursuing women? You obviously hate them.

  36. Richard Aubrey says:

    The Patriarchy generates such contempt for women’s interests that we have a rape culture. The Patriarchy causes the Nice Guy phenomenon which creeps out women.
    The Patriarchy. Is there anything it can’t do?

  37. SnakeEyez says:

    The urban dictionary helpfully defines negging as “the offering of low-grade insults meant to undermine the self-confidence of a woman so she might be more vulnerable to your advances.” The idea is simple: women, particularly beautiful ones, are so accustomed to compliments that they’ve grown immune to their power. But make a “hot” woman think you don’t think she’s all that, and she’ll be eating out of your hand.

    “…It’s called SELF ESTEEM! it’s the ESTEEM of your #### SELF! how the #### could i #### up how you feel about YOUUUU…”
    – Kat Williams

    As someone that has been in the pick up community, worked in night clubs and has used negs in the past(I really don’t need them anymore) I really have never found women’s self-confidence/self-esteem so generally lacking that they lacking that I had the ability to really lower it with a ‘neg’. Most women will ignore or walk away from a strange man if the interaction becomes abusive. Some of them will even get mad if you hit the right buttons. This would be very counter intuitive to trying to building any rapport with anyone none the less with someone you want to sleep with.

    Furthermore if negging is so draining of normal women’s self-esteem why is there never any talk of amogging (Alpha Male the Other Guy)? Amogging is basically the same as negging except it is directed at male rivals. Either, according to Schwyzer’s theory, PUA are self-esteem black holes draining everyone self-esteem in the room or possibly something else is going on. Really sounds like someone you want to invite to a party.

    Generally people in general are a lot stronger then we tend to think: our ancestors survived the horrors of war, famine, disease, slavery, genocide and all manner of disasters and somehow were able to survive physically, mentally and spiritually. Are modern humans so weak that despite living in a generally prosperous and safe society that we can’t take a joke, insult or tease at our own extent? Do you really think that women like Michelle Obama, Hillary Clinton or Condoleezza Rice would do more than chuckle at a neg or come back with a snappy retort? Sure maybe you will undermine the self-esteems of the Snooki’s of the world but there’s not a lot there to begin with…

    When I hear this type of logic coming from feminist and pro feminist I really start to imagine that they must have really low opinions of women.

  38. I was on the receiving end of “negs” a few times before I knew it was a technique. A couple of times, yes, it was hurtful. I couldn’t figure out why some strange guy would just come up to me and give me a backhanded insult out of the blue. It didn’t make me feel at all inclined to get to know the guy better, I just felt like I’d been slapped in the face, which is not pleasant. And yes our ancestors survived famine and plagues but in 2011, I’d like to be able to go about my life without some idiot ruining my day for no reason. It’s hard for me to figure out why this technique is supposed have such a magic ability to get women to drop their panties.

    Now that I know it’s a technique, I just think it’s lame.

  39. anonymity says:

    Oh my god. I finally don’t love my husband anymoer because he negs me all the time even for a small things like half lemon left on the table by me! My god, my poor nerves cannot take it anymore. I want to get rid of my marriage!

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