What’s less authentic than entering into a ‘spontaneous’ social interaction with a script? Hugo Schwyzer argues that ‘negging’ isn’t cool.
Maybe you’ve heard a line like this at a party or in a bar, from a man to a woman he barely knows:
“You have a pretty face, but you’d be even prettier if you’d lose the bangs.”
Chances are, unless it’s coming from a gay hairstylist trolling for clients, that you’ve just witnessed a “neg-hit,” the basic tactic in “negging.”
If there’s one technique in the pick-up artist (PUA) repertoire about which I hear more often than anything else, it’s “negging.” The urban dictionary helpfully defines negging as “the offering of low-grade insults meant to undermine the self-confidence of a woman so she might be more vulnerable to your advances.” The idea is simple: women, particularly beautiful ones, are so accustomed to compliments that they’ve grown immune to their power. But make a “hot” woman think you don’t think she’s all that, and she’ll be eating out of your hand. Or so the peddlers of seduction wisdom would have their customers believe.
Though I’m suspicious of most of what the professional PUAs are selling, I do appreciate that they’re meeting a very real need. We live in a culture where heterosexual men are still frequently expected to be the initiators, to make the first move. For many men who lack the requisite self-confidence and self-esteem to approach a woman in a way that won’t annoy or unnerve her, the PUAs teach valuable techniques. Some of those techniques are solid common sense; others are soaked in misogyny. Some men who pay significant sums to be coached in “game” are happy with the results, some aren’t. But almost all are, at one point or another, taught to “neg.”
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The problem with negging (whether it’s done as part of formal PUA technique or not) is that it’s rooted in men’s suspicion that too many women think too highly of themselves. Listen to PUAs and Men’s Rights Activists (MRAs), and you’ll hear a familiar litany: most women expect too much. Blame romance novels or television shows, pop psychology or feminism (the MRAs are especially fond of pinning all their woes on the last of these), but 21st century American women are too demanding—or so these lads claim. They want hot bods and fat wallets and empathy, like some perfect fusion of Johnny Depp, Mark Zuckerberg, and Dr. Drew.
So the “neggers” believe that the only way to combat women’s inflated sense of self-worth and expectation is to tear down their self-esteem. They operate on the cruel calculation that the less a woman believes she deserves, the more likely she is to “settle” for the likes of the game-playing PUA. Certainly, there’s a ton of anecdotal evidence to support the hypothesis that women’s low self-esteem is connected to a willingness to sleep with (and remain in relationships with) men who will treat them badly.
In their own defense, PUAs who neg claim that all they’re really trying to do is differentiate themselves from the legions of men who use and abuse compliments. Plenty of women have experience being on the receiving end of the cheesy flattery that is the standard stuff of traditional opening lines. “Am I in heaven? Because I’m looking at an angel” is likely to elicit an eye-roll and a snort.
The insincerity of these sorts of compliments is obvious, and as a result, their effectiveness is limited at best. The PUAs argue that by negging, they’re offering a genuinely honest alternative to the usual hokum of the bar scene. No woman really is an angel, after all; expressing limited, critical interest through a quick neg-hit (a one-line backhanded compliment) will be perceived, they hope, as more authentic. It works in part because of women’s insecurity, but it also works because effective negging is rooted in a tiny kernel of truth. (The opening example about a woman’s bangs only works if the woman actually has hair covering her forehead.)
The true effectiveness of this game, of course, lies in its subtle suggestion that the PUA has taken the time to notice the woman he’s negging. Many women—perhaps particularly stereotypically attractive women—have plenty of experience being stared at by men. They have less experience of feeling seen. The mixture of compliment and insult suggests both the absence of desperation (an admittedly attractive quality) and at least a glimmer of interest (otherwise, why would the negger speak up in the first place.). Used skillfully, there’s little question that negging can work.
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Bullying and threats of violence can also get guys what they want. We have to do more than ask “what works,” we need to ask “is it worth using?” As tempting as it can be to buy into the myth that “women expect too much” and deserve to be taken down a peg, the reality is that most women don’t expect a fusion of Brad Pitt and Deepak Chopra. While there certainly are some women who have grossly unrealistic assumptions about what a relationship with a man can and should provide, men also tend to exaggerate the loftiness of women’s expectations. Wanting a guy to be well-groomed and equipped with a basic vocabulary for his own emotional terrain are not unreasonable desires. In most cases, the problem isn’t women expecting too much: it’s men offering too little.
But if the PUAs are wrong to try and work to reduce both women’s self-esteem and their expectations, they’re right to remind all of us that compliments grow stale and meaningless from overuse. They are right as well to encourage men not merely to stare but to take notice. And they are right that what we’re all hungry for is greater authenticity. Except, what’s less authentic than entering into a “spontaneous” social interaction with a script, feigning a mix of candor and lack of interest in the hopes of sparking curiosity and desire? Guys can do better than that.
—photo vagueonthehow/Flickr
“Absent of desperation”
You say she has high self esteem AND she thinks it’s desperate to hit on her? You don’t realize that “desperate” implies she isn’t worth it. You’re so clueless you’re just protecting how you’d feel about anyone who’d chase YOU
I think part of the reason this tactic is so favored, is because the type of guy in the PUA scene is extremely frustrated and angry with women on a deep level for being rejected / ignored. This tells them they can actually take out their anger (in a very passive aggressive way) on desired women and STILL get those desired women. They don’t have to choose which emotional desire to feed! Negging basically promises men they can have both their polarized emotions and desires met at the same time, which is what makes this very destructive tactic so tempting… Read more »
Oh my god. I finally don’t love my husband anymoer because he negs me all the time even for a small things like half lemon left on the table by me! My god, my poor nerves cannot take it anymore. I want to get rid of my marriage!
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I was on the receiving end of “negs” a few times before I knew it was a technique. A couple of times, yes, it was hurtful. I couldn’t figure out why some strange guy would just come up to me and give me a backhanded insult out of the blue. It didn’t make me feel at all inclined to get to know the guy better, I just felt like I’d been slapped in the face, which is not pleasant. And yes our ancestors survived famine and plagues but in 2011, I’d like to be able to go about my life… Read more »
The urban dictionary helpfully defines negging as “the offering of low-grade insults meant to undermine the self-confidence of a woman so she might be more vulnerable to your advances.” The idea is simple: women, particularly beautiful ones, are so accustomed to compliments that they’ve grown immune to their power. But make a “hot” woman think you don’t think she’s all that, and she’ll be eating out of your hand. “…It’s called SELF ESTEEM! it’s the ESTEEM of your #### SELF! how the #### could i #### up how you feel about YOUUUU…” – Kat Williams As someone that has been… Read more »
The Patriarchy generates such contempt for women’s interests that we have a rape culture. The Patriarchy causes the Nice Guy phenomenon which creeps out women.
The Patriarchy. Is there anything it can’t do?
Play nice with others. It’s rubbish at that. It has to be Winning.
It can’t make things good for women.
“Pick up as it exists is a bad thing” No, its not. Nor should a political movement based on lies and manipulations control human dating. Whats more feminism creates the emasculated men and the nice guys turned nasty that contribute much of the misogny that is there in the PUA community. Also, by your own logic and qualifications both female game and feminism are “Bad Things” and should go because of the bullshit and misandry. In Sweden where feminism is more advanced, women complain that of they didn’t make the first move and lead the conversations that nothing would happen… Read more »
“In Sweden where feminism is more advanced, women complain that of they didn’t make the first move and lead the conversations that nothing would happen so the gender roles that feminism seeks to enforce, aren’t ideal either.”
Dude, I live in Sweden. I have seen nothing of these claims that you make.
Hello 8of10, Im sorry for making generalisations like that. I’m basing my opinions on the following bits that I have read. “Frustrated, I decided to call an expert: Swedish author and dating guru Marie Hagberg… “You expect a guy to make the first move, but in Sweden he won’t unless he’s really drunk,” Hagberg said… “Men here are very timid,”… But why don’t they pay? “Men think women earn almost as much as they do, so why should they pay? I think that’s bullshit,” she said… “I slowly start to realize that a Swedish man on a first date is… Read more »
BTW
I disagree with the prostitutive attitude of the american woman in the first article I quoted.
That swedish dating coach sounds a lot like a conservative loon. I can understand that a person like that doesn’t like the current dating climate in Sweden.
8of10 I think that the American woman with her blend of prostitution, misandry, condensation and disrespect comes off the worst of the three and Eda Von Sydow comes off very self centered but is hardly a Conservative figure and she is saying pretty much the same thing as the Swedish Dating Marie Hagberg, with the exception of saying that the welfare state is whats effecting behaviour, the blog post that features Eda Von Sydow cites “gender equality” as the source so I think that both are pointing to the feminist state as the reason, just one is saying it more… Read more »
But isn’t this what you all have been saying you want – women initiate, men can be passive?
“Whats more feminism creates the emasculated men and the nice guys turned nasty that contribute much of the misogny that is there in the PUA community.” I’d argue that patriarchal gender roles create these men. The negative female gender roles that feminism most famously target are not the whole picture – the patriarchal society define women and men as opposites, and as such, strict female gender roles require an opposite in the male. Most of these opposites are Good for Men, but it also paints a picture of “real men” – who, amongst many other things, should be naturally able… Read more »
I disagree. The emasculated male is a product of feminism, lack of father figures who have bee driven out of the family, degenerated by feminist social engineering and emasculating women that have been taught to disrespect men and masculinity create emasculated men, then women in the culture reject emasculated men and call them losers and creeps while attacking value to men that have retained healthy masculinity. And Patriarchy theory is pretty much discredited now anyway isn’t it? I find feminists very similar to followers of other religions, everything is explained in their holy scripture. And when feminists are campaigning to… Read more »
o sum game for men, its a human rights issue.
Feminists are: People who have privilege based on gender, who are using that power to subjugate, demean, and victimize those not of that gender, specifically using social construction/engineering to create gender roles that weaken their victims – In this instance, the roles of the Omega/ Beta men who are emasculated, and then demeaned and mocked for their weakness. The most powerful way they demean these men (who are in the majority) is with reference to a rare, and mostly unattainable standard of Masculinity (true Alphas, whom the women claim to loathe but simultaneously desire.) This power is also used to… Read more »
Go to:
Why do you even bother pursuing women? You obviously hate them.
Pickup is an interesting problem… and a perfect example of how Feminism Can Be Good For Men. PU exists because, as many have pointed out, there exists this idea that Men should be naturally good at attracting women, or they are “losers” or “creeps.” This is not a problem caused by “superior” women harshly judging men, but rather the stringent gender roles imposed on both men and women (Man is aggressive pursuer, Woman is passive target etc.) Restricting women to a “passive” role in seduction naturally requires men to occupy the opposite. The negative gender roles mutually reinforce. And these… Read more »
Actually Hugo himself on his blog talked about how other men should help the unfortunate men. I am still waiting for Hugo to dish out anything that isn’t a long list of things that shouldn’t be done, or even start telling women that they should do the initiating for once.
That’s because the only thing that Hugo really has to offer is for men to stick to their predefined gender roles and play by the rules.
That’s because the only thing that Hugo really has to offer is for men to stick to their predefined gender roles and play by the rules. And what’s worse – if you’re not naturally good at the pre-defined gender-roles, hugo will try to shame you and say that makes you a really really bad person. The extremely sucky thing about the pre-defined gender roles is that you can only be good at them if you’ve only been good at them since forever – you can’t become good at the later in life. Mostly because you need to be in the… Read more »
I would be content if Hugo realized that he is speaking from an extremely privileged position. I haven’t had a single date in my entire life. When Hugo was my age, he was well into wrecking his second marriage.
I don’t think it’s enough to “give men the skills” because those skills come from a very complex system of rewards and status symbols that are granted throughout a lifetime of socialization. And part of that whole package are a set of strict gender roles and predefined courting rituals that we are all heavily vested in. And part of that socialization seems to say that women are virtuous and that it’s men’s role to court women by living up to a “worthy” set of standards. I went to see Mozart’s The Abduction from the Seraglio and I walked out with… Read more »
“We are all heavily vested in our gender roles and we want to think that if we have a beautiful wife, we “earned” her and if we have a husband then he’s really as “successful” as he seems. Pickup, whether it works or not, is all about subverting those gender roles by finding their inherent flaws”.
Great quote, and I think thats why feminists find game so intimidating and want to control it. How subversive it is to female privilege.
“Subverting” is not equivalent to “exploiting,” and I think that Pickup is more the latter. If gender roles were being subverted, then pickup would be fundamentally unable to make generalizations based on gender – pickup, if it truly subverted and dismantled gender roles, would be gender neutral – a goal, I think, that would be worthwhile. I really think it’d be possible to write a useful guide to dating/seduction that works and applies equally regardless of your gender or orientation. An example of how Pickup supports gender stereotypy – it relies heavily on evolutionary psychology texts such as “The Red… Read more »
I so much agree with you about the misunderstanding of evolutionary psychology. For example I always see PUA’s citing Richard Dawkins as an evolutionary psychologist when he is actually an evolutionary BIOLOGIST. And they cite The Selfish Gene as some sort of Bible when I doubt any of them have read it, much less understood it. Dawkins himself has said that he’s dismayed that people use his theories as support for the idea that human beings are, or should be, selfish, which is essentially social darwinism. Genes are selfish; people can be kind, generous and altruistic; evolution supports both (I.e.… Read more »
Anthony, exploitation and subversion are not mutually exclusive. The correct term depends on context. If you’re referring to attempts (scientific or not) to identify and exploit psychological differences between the sexes, you’re talking about gender traits. Those aren’t the same thing as gender roles, which are culturally defined, and so therefore one can exploit gender traits in order to subvert gender roles. Much of Pickup could be nonsensical in another context, such as a culture that does prearranged marriages. It may not have gained prominence had we lived in a healthier society that paid attention to everything from bullying to… Read more »
I think we should just continue asking this question until we get an answer. These guys, and especially hugo always just post a big list of DONT’S, or when they do post DO’s – they’re vague, such as “well, just be good to women, and don’t be an idiot”.
Been mulling this a lot since yesterday, and I’ve written a couple of things that I’ve either deleted or filed away as “way too long and only just started already.” One of the problems with a lot of dating advice is that it is of the form “Women like…” and “Men like…” Not only does this reinforce stereotypes which are problematic anyway, they’re only targeted at most people of that gender in your culture if they even work. And most effective on the most average of men/women (in the statistical sense.) So… maybe an improvement for many, but faaar from… Read more »
Let’s make an analogy: If you, your therapist, or your friends, insist you man up and actually jump out of an airplane–the concept of which terrifies you–and you try, there will be physical manifestations of your fear. High blood pressure, incoherent thinking, pale face, staring eyes, racing pulse, wondering if you’re going to piss your pants. But, possibly with a shove from your instructor, you jump. Success. You’ve jumped and you’ve conquered your fears. The presumption is that you will jump, and, having jumped, feel you’ve succeeded, and the next time will be easier…. Let’s say, instead, you’re pushed into… Read more »
Alek “No, I merely related to an anecdotal example since the topic is about ridiculing gamers. I said I know gamers who decide to work out the mental issues on their own, and so they do “inner-game” thing they call it (solving your mental issues) but they never leave the house.” Yeah, you relating things that are being said that aren’t about game, to game, you are deep in game land and just think that you are not. Also, you claimed just going out and socializing without an agenda to pick up is rare, thats not true. Ive often done… Read more »
Also, you claimed just going out and socializing without an agenda to pick up is rare No I didn’t. You have reading comprehension problems. I said its rare for men to INTERACT with a woman they’re INTERESTED in without an agenda – no matter how they met her. I didn’t say men don’t leave the house without an agenda – where did I say this. You guys are like huge projection machines. , your belief that everyone is always on the pick up and that socializing normally is some new idea comes from the fact that you have been in… Read more »
Ok So you as saying that when men meet women that they are sexually interested in, they should just act naturally and go with flow instead of thinking of traditional role playing. Sorry bud, this isn’t new. When I was out clubbing and pubbing and going to after parties, and that was in non meat venues, and there is a clear distinction between pubs and clubs where people go to get drunk and pick up and places that are more about the music and the culture, the sort of interaction you are talking about was not uncommon, not to me… Read more »
I’m in europe… You and your strawmans… sigh… distinction between pubs and clubs where people go to get drunk and pick up and places that are more about the music and the culture, the sort of interaction you are talking about was not uncommon, not to me anyway. Guys that would be all as you describe, would have been seen as “not cool”. Dude, do you have a mental block that prevents you from reading what I’m saying. I DID NOT SAY ANY of the things you’re telling me doesn’t happen. I DID NOT SAY —> that guys go around… Read more »
Not a big fan of this article, and I think it gets the point of the ‘neg’ wrong and the motivations of a pick-up artist wrong. My two bits: The ‘neg’, as I understand it, is intended to make a woman subconsciously desire approval; this of course requires the woman to pay attention to and otherwise interact with the PUA. On it’s own, the neg does nothing, it’s just a way to open the proceedings. Secondly, this is something that men who are “naturally” good at picking up women do all the time, yet somehow those who take a special… Read more »
Its also something that women do so much they are unaware of it, so much so that OP, who is also unaware of it, constructs men seeking the approval of women as the way it should be.
That doesn’t make me like the concept of negging any better… So some guy is trying to make me feel bad about myself as a way of manipulating me into needing his approval? Yuck. Life is hard enough. Why would I want to be with a man who is going to tear me down in order to make me dependent on him as a source of approval? That does not sound like the foundation of a healthy relationship to me. I do admit this technique probably works on insecure women with low self esteem. So you will probably get laid… Read more »
Susan “Thats no excuse” translation – its ok when women do it and when feminist professors say that men should seek the approval of women and attack the self esteem of men. Susan Women do it and a bunch of other much nefarious manipulative stuff. I was reading an article discussing the latest best seller female game book and it was straight up advocating psychological abuse. Negging, in male game, is supposed to be playful teasing and done properly women enjoy it, whats more as the other poster pointed out, men that are very popular with women, do it. Thats… Read more »
Here Susan, from Hugos source. “A neg is not a light insult wrapped in a compliment, nor is it being mean for mean’s sake. The real definition of a neg (straight from the horse’s mouth): A neg is active disqualification. It shows that you aren’t hitting on a particular woman and don’t have interest in her *at that particular moment*. You’re not being mean, per se, you’re telling her that she does not meet your standards of attractiveness. It isn’t a direct comment, either. When you’re engaging a group you can “toss it like a pebble” at her or towards… Read more »
Sending the message “you don’t meet my standards of attractiveness” seems pretty mean to me. I realize that making lame compliments doesn’t work, but purposely playing on someone’s insecurties to build yourself up seems wrong. If women do it to men, it is also wrong when they do it. (Although honestly I don’t think most women intentionally try to hurt men’s feelings though men may take it that way when they are rejected.) I don’t know. Maybe I just don’t get all these complaints from men about women holding all the cards and how men have no power in relationships.… Read more »
If women are not content with having to wait until being chosen, they are free to initiate pick ups as well. I wonder what kind of world we would live in then.
Honestly, I wish I could do that, but it’s really not a feasible solution in most instances. This is the problem. If I just want a casual hookup, yeah, I suppose I could hit on a guy and ask him for sex. He might say yes. But all I’m going to get out of it is casual sex, which is fine as far as that goes, I guess, but usually that’s not what I’m looking for. I’m usually looking to get to know someone. Not necessarily like “I’m going to marry this guy” but as someone I might want to… Read more »
If you don’t attract attention that is normaly an indication that you have to do the initiating yourself. This is something men have always faced. Picking up is a game where one loses most of the time.
@Susan 1) that’s not true – casual sex can lead to more and is a GREAT way to get to know a person – really, truly. Going on dates is FAKE. Doing casual sex with someone you get to know the true person. Going on dates is both of you putting on a persona 2) Its a numbers game, duh. Welcome to reality lol. Of course not every guy you’re gonna hookup with is gonna turn into something serious. There’s nothing wrong with that. Do you dislike sex or something? Because what’s wrong with enjoying a lot of different sex… Read more »
I don’t have a problem with sex, I’ve had one night stands and casual hookups. That’s why I know it’s not what want. I only really enjoy sex when I feel an emotional connection and trust. I can’t feel that with a random guy I just picked up, no matter how physically attractive he might be. Also, you didn’t address the slut issue. I don’t lie that word but it is not something that is possible to ignore. I firmly believe that the quickest way to ruin any potential for a relationship with a guy is too have casual sex… Read more »
Sarah
“Men get to chose, women have to wait to be chosen”
Thats not how it works at all, men approach with a high rejection rate, women chose rejecting most men that approach them”.
And you can quite easily approach men, and experience a much higher success rate than men do.
“And you can quite easily approach men, and experience a much higher success rate than men do.”
That’s very true, and objectively and undeniably provable, yet most women chose to form their arguments and beliefs as-if it wasn’t.
Its an objective fact that women do get as much as 10x better results when they do approaching, initiating sex, initiating dates, calling first etc. Yet all discussions proceed as if women don’t.
As I’ve said, most of what PUa’s say about women having all the power applies to a minority of highly attractive women. We could call them alpha females, to turn around PUA jargon. Beta females, if you want to call them that, have no more power than so-called beta males. Beta females get ignored rather than rejected outright but it is the same thing. Going to a social event where not one guy wants to talk to you feels like a complete rejection for the female involved. This is something men really don’t uderstand because they only see the alpha… Read more »
Beta females, if you want to call them that, have no more power than so-called beta males. Beta females get ignored rather than rejected outright but it is the same thing No its not. A “beta female” will only get asked out twice a year instead of twice a month, but she still gets asked out and is offered love, appreciation etc… You compare a small number to a zero. The beta guy has zero, the beta girl only has a relatively smaller number than the alpha girl, but a zero is infinitely small, so its not a fair comparison.… Read more »
Look, you don’t know anything about the experience of being a woman. Like most guys, you have a fantasy about what life is like for women which is based on highly attractive women, who are the only women in your consciousness. Women get rebuffed all the time, sometimes cruelly. I know women who are great, funny, successful people who haven’t had a date in years. Why? Because they aren’t hot looking. And for that matter, I don’t think one or two dates a year qualifies as a successful or satisfying romantic life. Don’t denigrate the feelings or life experience of… Read more »
I think these statements are quite entertaining after having visited yet another feminist site where women claim to know everything about what motivates men, what men think and how men live their lives.
So, in essence. Men should accept they can’t know what life is like for a woman, yet somehow feminist women know everything about what life is like for men. There is something rather fishy in this line of argument.
8of10, if you read my comment I acknowledged I don’t know what male experience is like. Do you think men have some special powers of insight into what women experience?
The point is, dating is hard for everybody. Men and women both have struggles. Some struggles are similar and some are different. It isn’t a competition to prove that one gender is worse off than the other in the dating market.
FYI, I read and comment on articles like this because I’m interested in understanding men better. I’m not over on feminist websites because I don’t learn anything there.
Susan, who has the power: the guy being iapplying for a job, or the one doing the interview?
Sure, the interviewer gets to “pick” which job they apply for (which girl to hit on) but after that? It’s all in the employer/interviewer’s hands.
p.s. I was talking to a guy once (he approached me in a public place) and he asked me “how old are you?”. I told him I was 26. (This was a few years ago — I’m a bit older now LOL). He said, “Really? I would have guessed 30.” Ouch! I told him I had to be somewhere and went home and spent the next hour looking for lines in my face. Seriously, it made me feel like crap. I thought about that comment for literally years. In fact, here I am talking about it now. I assume that… Read more »
Susan You just claimed that women that are not perfect 10s dont exist for PUAs, then you said someone negged you. So are you saying that you are a perfect 10 or are you admitting that you made an inaccurate generalization? Anyway, your story about the wrinkles, thats pretty funny and yeah Id say that was probably supposed to be a neg, used the wrong way, I don’t think the idea of the neg is wrong, but it can be misunderstood and misused, as in that case. Its not commonly used, or not supposed to be anyway. I treat game… Read more »
I was 26, I’d been spending a lot of time at then gym that summer and I think the light was bad. LOL. So no I’m not a perfect 10 and wasnt then, although I probably was looking my best that summer compared to other times in my life. This was a few years ago, before anyone had heard of PUA training or techniques. I assume he was a “natural” in that case. I’ve read quite a bit about what’s now known as pickup artistry and yes, it does seem to be heavily skewed towards perfect 10’s and hot babes.… Read more »
Susan
You are on another thread saying that when you signal that you show your cleavage, you can be hit on 10 times in an evening, thats more times than a lower ranking male will be hit on in his life time.
And, you cant just make up a new reality when it suits, like that. Whatever about lying, its frustrating for men in gender type debate, who will generally try debate in good faith trying to converse with feminists, who generally won’t, and it only serves to reinforce negative stereotypes about feminists..
My point on the other thread was that I get way, way more attention by showing cleavage, when I don’t show cleavage I get virtually no attention ever. The difference is dramatic. I’ve never said I never get hit on. I occasionally get hit on. when I was younger I got hit on more, except during a period of my life where I was 60 pounds overweight, at which time I never ever got hit on EVER, not even by heavy guys (someone commented upthread that fat women get attention from fat guys but that is not true at all).… Read more »
On this thread you said you are rarely hit on.
On the other you said that you can get hit on 10 times in one night
This is why your movement is losing all its credibility, too many lies.
On the other thread, I said I rarely get hit on unless I show a lot of cleavage, however I’m not comfortable doing that so — I rarely get hit on. Yes, I suppose I could wear low cut tops every where but I don’t want to do that. So men bitching that women have all this sexual power — I’m one of the ones they are ignoring while they chase after the women in skimpy tops. My point is they are only considering a minority of women — the highly attractive ones who flaunt their sexuality Besides women who… Read more »
I get your queasiness with all of this Susan – I don’t really have enough knowledge on the topic of PUA’s, though instinctually, it all seems a bit off. But instinctually, I possess an inbred aversion to the use of “tactics” and their application to love, sexuality, romance and all those fine and pretty things. Rationally though, I know that all actions are in one way or another, a tactic, and romanticizing one over another is nothing more than a sleight of hand. Then again, not all things (tactics) are equal, so that too should be part of the conversation.… Read more »
Ah Alissa, thanks so much for demonstrating that negging is standard operating procedure for women. All you feminists should go here for an unbiased opinion of game.
htt p://www.feministcritics.org/blog/about/seduction-communitypickup-artists/
Rather than listening to the charlatans that write about it for TGMP.
Femastrophysicist
I think its funny when women femsplain to men about approaching and confidence while approaching because women generally don’t approach, have much experience with approaching (once or twice or five times doesn’t count) and handle rejection so badly relative to men.
And even when they do approach? They either have experience approaching men, or they have experience approaching women- as another woman.
Not *nearly* the same dynamics as a man approaching a woman. At all.
Three things that will help you get laid and date girls: 1.) Women are people. They have interests and insecurities and stories about their lives, and they are all different. I personally love watching Top Gear UK and Tornado Chasers, and I can’t cook meat on a grill but am wonder woman with vegetables, grains and baked goods. It’s a lot easier to talk with a woman when you stop seeing her as prey or as some other alien species. In fact, women love sex as much as men do, and we think the male form is as exquisite as… Read more »
“and handle rejection so badly relative to men.”
Very true. I know we’re talking in generalities here, but women are a LOT worse about responding to rejection. Which is why I find it so funny when I read feminist theories and rants that try to ascribe angry rejectee-response to a “patriarchy” and “entitlement” and “male privilege”.
If the few men who respond really badly to rejection are because of male-privilege, how do they explain the women who are much much much worse about rejection. A much bigger percentage flip out on rejection, and they do so in SCARY ways.
I’ve been posting with feminists for a few years now and have come to suspect that a lot of what the ideology says about men is projection. They project or blame everything thats negative about them, onto us.
Astro, I say the same things you say, but I don’t piss off guys when I say it. You know why? Because the way you phrased it is condescending and the language is very shaming.
You didn’t do it on purpose. You’re coming from a good place. But still, you article, from a man’s perspective reads “If you’re not popular with women, you suck, and you’re screwed up, and you treat women like monsters – so stop being evil, and don’t be screwed up”.
Is the term “feminst critics” now flagged as spam?
Guess not, must be a glitch..
Question to CJ – I see a lot of stuff is running in circles without a lot of specifics. Can you answer a few questions honestly and exactly? 1) In the past week, how many times did you go to a social event with a bunch of new people? 2) How many new people did you talk to TOTAL and socialize with (not just women, people of all types) 3) How many women did you chat with until you hit a common theme 4) Of the women you hit a common interest with, to how many did you offer your… Read more »
#1. One. I went to a memorial day bbq and there were many new people there (though I did know about half the people) #2. Have an in depth conversation with or just say a few words? I’d say I had actual legitimate conversations with 4 new people, and spoke/socialized with about 8 #3. 2 #4. 0. One was married, one was dating, both were much older than me, and I didn’t find either one attractive. That’s probably why I was able to have an actual conversation with them. I can talk to women… as long as I have zero… Read more »
@CJ
That’s waaaaaaay too little. It should be more like this on an average week.
– Was out 3-4 times
– Talked to and met a few dozen people each time
The rest of the comment is just the story you’re telling yourself to stay where you are. Change that story.
How can I possibly go out that much and get in contact with that many people? I’d literally have to strike up a conversation with every random person on the train to and from work. Should I be striking up conversations at the supermarket? Go to the park and talk to people? Talk to random people on the street? I get asked directions all the time (actually usually by women now that I think about it) should I start having conversations with them as well? There was a cute girl who asked me for directions yesterday and she had a… Read more »
All your questions and more will be answered in Brent Smith’s podcasts. Google for “brent smith podcasts 1-27” He discusses at length how to become the guy who can talk to everyone. Dude, I USED TO HAVE SOCIAL PHOBIA 🙂 I’m not kidding. Like actual inability to talk to people in class even if you paid me to do it. Today I walk into a club/party/gallery, and by the end of the night I’ve befriended half the band, the owner, the managers, and like 10 groups of people. It’s all very do-able. BUT To answer your question – you don’t… Read more »
Sorry Alek, I have to intrupt this. C.J One of the ways a person develops self esteem is through whats reflected back at them. So if you are having unsatisfactory social experiences, going out and forcing yourself to have without looking at the route causes, could reinforce some of the problems you already have. What you need to do is work on yourself and get to the point where you are going to be able to engage someone, without the self esteem and negativity issues that are making communicating with people positively difficult in the first place, before you go… Read more »
Go to-what you explained is a common excuse people use to become hermits. I’ve done it… I know dozens of guys who used “working on themselves” as an excuse to become hermits. They call it the “inner-game hermit trap”. The guy who’s been sitting at home and doing inner-work for 3 years and hasn’t left the house – but he says its because he wants to get things right in his head first, lol. You can both go out AND work on yourself. There’s nothing wrong with forcing yourself to go out. What’s wrong is forcing yourself to do stuff… Read more »
Alek
Sometimes its not about game you know?
C.J needs some counselling from a professional, something more than a game routine of talking to x amount of people everyday until it becomes natural.
Sometimes its not about game you know? Whoever mentioned game ANYWHERE in the discussion I was having with CJ – stop trying to put everything into that game frame. You’re obsessed. We were discussing the development of a SOCIAL lifestyle. Its about SOCIALIZING. C.J needs some counselling from a professional And? What does THAT have to do with anything I said? Are you incapable of not straw-manning? I said that ONLY doing internal-work is an EXCUSE. Its forcing yourself to use all social opportunities as much as you can WHILE also at the same time doing internal work. Whether you… Read more »
Alek
No its you thats projecting.
You are selling the beyond game game, and relating everything back to game. I’m advocating C.J has professional help for his issues, nothing to do with game and you think that I’m talking about “inner game”.
Game is a bit like religion, you get guys following one, and guys like you saying that your one is the one true way.
And advising C.J not to address his childhood abuse and so on is irresponsible.
And advising C.J not to address his childhood abuse and so on is irresponsible. THIS IS LIBEL. I never said such a thing. And after you accused me of it the first time, I said I never did say to NOT do mental work and clarified. AND YOU DID IT again. I said – don’t ONLY work on mental issues. Work on BOTH the mental and at the same time leave the house. and you think that I’m talking about “inner game”. No, I merely related to an anecdotal example since the topic is about ridiculing gamers. I said I… Read more »
I’ve been working on myself for years and that hasn’t really benefited me in any way socially.
I’ve been working on myself for years and that hasn’t really benefited me in any way socially. True, and that’s a common. Social success can’t be won by just doing just one component. You have to work on both the internal and the external. Just working on yourself, will get you nowhere if you’re not conciously doing CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy). This is a therapy designed to work on the external aspects of getting a better social life (among other things). This means that you conciously work on the external things you need as well. For example, a CBT professional… Read more »
I do have social phobia… and generalized anxiety disorder… and avoidant personality disorder… lmao.
i’ll look into this stuff.
Look into CBT therapists as well. They’re really good at social anxiety etc…
I have worked with one in the past, actually. I found her, more or less, completely useless. She could tell me all sorts of stuff I should do but not how to actually do any of them.
I have worked with one in the past, actually. I found her, more or less, completely useless. She could tell me all sorts of stuff I should do but not how to actually do any of them. Finding a good therapist, I’ve heard is really hard. You have to do a lot of searching – which is why i keep pounding on the idea that you shouldn’t wait. Just figure out what to do on your own, while you’re searching for a good one. Don’t let it become another of your excuses. – I can’t socialize more because I’ve got… Read more »
Women struggle all the time with dating and meeting people, too. This isn’t an us-vs-them think like everyone makes it out to be.
CJ: Go to therapy, dude. You clearly have some big issues to work through. After a couple of months you will be a different person. Trust me, I know. I went to therapy.
EVERYONE SHOULD STOP WHINING AND GO TO THERAPY!
Therapy costs money
TGMP
Can you stop bringing these charlatans in to write about game?
If TGMP is going to continue publishing about game, it needs to hire someone that knows what it is.
I’m a woman. I wrote about what women like. They like leadership. Alpha dog leadership. It’s different from gorilla leadership. And it doesn’t mean that men have to always lead. in fact every alpha male should have an alpha female. A woman wants her own alpha male. He doesn’t have to be the alpha male of society; just the alpha male of their relationship. And she becomes the alpha female of the relationship; that is, if it’s a healthy relationship. 🙂
Neggin? Again?? Look, I can only go by what I know. And I know my own personal experiences. In high school and the start of college I was a nice guy. I complimented women, did them favors, wrote them poetry, etc. And what was I rewarded with? I became their best friend, the nice guy, the reliable guy. Basically I was akin to their gay male friend. Totally non-threatening and totally not getting any. Granted, I didn’t want to have sex with all of them. But some of them. Fast forward to college where I got the best advice from… Read more »
The more I read these things; the more I feel that I am going to have to become that guy in order to get laid. Your story sounds just like my story… best friend to more women than I care to admit, trusted adviser on all things men, relationship doctor, and never considered for a relationship. I even tried the advice I got from my already large group of female friends on getting a girlfriend… the advice “become friends first and then she’ll like you and you can have a relationship.” Of course, why I believed them on that when… Read more »
CJ, you don’t have to stop being nice to attract women. But you are making a mistake that a lot of “nice guys” make. You are hoping if you becomes friend with women, at some point they will magically transform into girlfriends. You think that if you sit there long enough being nice, being supportive, and listening to tap girl’s problems, one day she will spontaneously pull her topoff and say “let’s have sex!” well sometimes that may happen but I wouldnt count i it. You may wait a long time. So if you want to date women you can’t… Read more »
Sorry for all the typos. Typing on my iPhone
Had you read my posts on the pages before, you’d know I actually lead a very interesting life, but it hasn’t helped me one bit with women. I am a classically trained musician, I own my own business, and I live on my own in a big city at the age of 22. I do many interesting things, but they don’t get me anywhere with women.
‘You are single, because you suck, stop sucking and you won’t be single’. There I summed up your response in a single sentence. It’s not like we haven’t heard this dating advice a million times before from feminist women.
If I told you “I’m overweight and get no attention from men,” you’d tell me to lose weight. We all have ways we can improve. It doesn’t mean “you suck.” If something isn’t working then change it.
Great, does this mean I can fire the same barrage at women who complain that men aren’t interested in them?
I don’t know about “barrage” — I think if you read my commments I was trying to be positive and encouraging to CJ, not saying “you suck you hopeless loser.” I don’t believe anyone is a hopeless loser but again, if someone wants to improve their dating success they have to be willing to look at what they might be doing wrong.
Then you are way ahead of the game because you have the qualities that could attract women but I suspect you are not using those things to your advantage. You said it yourself, you have made the mistake of being friends with women hoping it will turn to romance. It won’t. My point is, instead of putting so much pressure on yourself to impress women or convince them to like you, focus on your passions in life which you already have. Put yourself in situations where you meet women, but treat the women you meet somewhat casually. Come across like… Read more »
In the words of Daddy Files, Neggin? Again? Most people here seem to have no real knowledge of the PUA community. 1) There are as many different schools of pickup as there are schools of martial arts, approaches to psychotherapy, or culinary arts. Many folks consider the Neg a relic of the early 2000s after “The Pick-Up Artist” came out. The schools I favor emphasize bringing fun, banter and playful teasing. That is more who I am personally; giving backhanded compliments feels forced for me. The Neg can be so easily misapplied by guys who never been rejected because they… Read more »
Thank you for this comment. It is one of the few times I’ve read a comment from a PUA that isn’t completely negative about women.
So many guys who espouse PUA techniques basicslly seem to be saying, “I should be entitled to have sex with any extremely attractive woman that I want but those women are picky and mean because they won’t let me play with their toys.” There is rarely any acknowledgment that women are naturally looking for fun, sexual excitement, and emotional and physical satisfaction in their relationships, and that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with that.
So many guys who espouse PUA techniques basicslly seem to be saying, “I should be entitled to have sex with any extremely attractive woman that I want but those women are picky and mean because they won’t let me play with their toys.” I think most guys who probably claim to be PUA online probably got as far as reading ‘The Game’ or ‘The Mystery Method.’ I think most PUA who have spent a lot of time in the community or the field (dating scene) tend to realize that women weren’t being mean by rejecting them but that we were… Read more »
I think what you are getting at is the difference between the right to happiness and the right to “pursue” happiness. Of course men are entitled to pursue what they want, be it a perfect career or a perfect woman or a perfect beer. However, so many guys seem so angry that they can’t get the perfect women they desire, and they turn that around as extreme hostility toward women in general. That is such a huge turn off. So much of the stuff I read from self-proclaimed PUA’s sounds so angry, it’s like they hate attractive women and want… Read more »
Wow that was pretty much what I wanted to write!
CJ: To be fair, I did end up marrying a woman I’ve known since the 6th grade and went to college with. However, we never hooked up in college (probably because she saw what a man whore I was being) and got together three years after graduation. By that time, she wanted a nice guy and I was tired of being a jerk. So I settled into a happy medium. I guess what I’m trying to say is don’t make it a priority. Getting laid can’t be all you think about. I’ve found (and again, this is just me speaking… Read more »
Well, it definitely hasn’t happened and that’s the point. I’ve tried for years the it’ll happen approach but it hasn’t happened and each passing month leaves me more and more depressed that it won’t be happening. It’s a very bad downward spiral and I have absolutely no idea how to break the vicious cycle. I will say that it is extremely difficult to not be extremely focused on getting laid/getting a date when you’re 22 and the only thing that’s touched your junk is your own hand. The sexual frustration is unbearable. I’ve considered just going to a prostitute to… Read more »
CJ, I know this is the kind of annoying thing that older people say to younger people but here goes –22 is actually very young. You have years and years ahead of you to meet women. So take a deep breath and imagine yourself in the future looking back with compassion on who you are today. Imagine what that future self is going to tell you. I think he would say Be patient. Love yourself more. I’m sorry to get all self help-y but that’s the truth. Now, that said, I know you want results today not next year or… Read more »
In this day and age, being 22 and never having been on a date/had a girlfriend puts you WAY behind the curve. I understand I have years ahead of me, but no one is going to want to be involved with someone who hasn’t had a date/girlfriend if I get too much older and I wouldn’t blame them. The first thing that they will probably think is, “what is wrong with him?” I know what my future self would tell me… “Get your sh*t together or you’re going to be a loser forever.” Then again, I’m not particularly nice to… Read more »
I feel so sad to read what you’ve written. It sounds like you’ve had a very difficult life and you feel very alone. I understand a little bit what you are going through because I had some really bad crap in my childhood too. Both my parents were pretty messed up. I had a head injury in 4th grade that left me with a seizure disorder and I had an orthopedic problem that caused me to walk with a funny limp. I was bullied a lot. I was extremely shy and had a lot of difficulty socially. Like you I… Read more »
The problem, of course, is that nothing HAS worked. I tried therapy… I tried drugs, I tried therapy and drugs, self management, self help, whatever. I think therapy could theoretically work, but I would have to find a therapist that is as intelligent as I am which is almost impossible. I also would not be able to deal with a male therapist because I’m completely uncomfortable talking about problems with men. Men aren’t supposed to have problems that they can’t solve by themselves and admitting as much to another man is just not something I can do. I want something… Read more »
Actually it might be easier for you to relate to a male therapist if you can get over that inhibition. The point is though, from everything you are saying, you need help. A lot of people need help. So what? Don’t let stereotypes about masculinity stop you from doing what you need to do. You do not need to keep feeling miserable. Help is out there if you are willing to look for it. A lot of people try a few different therapists before they find the right one. It’s worth every penny if it helps you. Your feelings are… Read more »
This is why I don’t like to share. I get everyone telling me I need to go deal with doctors for crazy people. That’s also ignoring the fact that therapists are a bunch of fraudulent hacks who can’t actually do anything. If I needed someone to parrot “what do you think” “how does that make you feel” etc, I’d record myself saying those things and then play them back. I don’t need to cough up $300/hour to listen to someone say that to me. You’re right; I don’t. All I need is to be more social, a date/girlfriend, and to… Read more »
Well only you can decide what you need to do to get where you want. It’s up to you.
Thanks for sharing your story with us man. Perhaps you should write it down, it sounds to me like it wants to come out.
And yet I feel nauseous for having shared… even with the relative anonymity of the internet. It does want to come out and I let it slip through the seams sometimes like just then probably because I don’t share it… not in real life anyway. Then, I inevitably feel guilty for sharing even parts of it like I do now. It’s my burden, and I shouldn’t be spilling it out on the internet… or anywhere else. No one cares about my life story and why should they? I’m just some random person who has done a terrible job of dealing… Read more »
Please don’t say that CJ. Go to Amazon and look up John Bradshaw’s book. It’s all about overcoming an abusive childhood. Your feelings are very normal given what you’ve been through.
Most of the women I’ve slept with I’ve known for at least a year first, in some cases several, so the “friend” thing hasn’t hurt me at all. There’ve been a pretty good number. I am moderately feminist. I support it, but believe that there are essential differences we aren’t paying enough attention to. I’ve never “neg”ed a woman, and don’t think you need to.
I had one one-night stand. It sucked. Most of the PUA type techniques are practiced by the guys my students call “douchebags.”
” Just because a woman turns a man down doesn’t mean he’s filed into one of those categories.” But we’re not talking about a woman simply not being interested. We’re talking about women HARSHLY and rudely humiliating men they’re not interested in a “get away from me you creepy filth” fashion. 2) BASHING PUAS IS FUN BUT —> got alternative? I like Bashing PUAs, and then offering an alternative. That’s much more constructive. I offered an alternative strategoy to pua/game crap, and nobody commented on it, because everyone likes to bash men who do things wrong, but nobody want to… Read more »
I think your method — not pursuing women and letting them pursue you — works for several reasons. (a) you don’t seem desperate for approval, (b) you aren’t worried about hitting on women so you appear relaxed and confident, (c) you talk to women like you are 2 normal people having a conversation; (d) your lack of interest allows women to feel comfortable getting to know you and is intriguing, (e) you don’t avoid women out of fear, while at the same time, you dont pursue them desperately either; you just behave normally and get to know people through normal… Read more »
Susan “(a) you don’t seem desperate for approval, (b) you aren’t worried about hitting on women so you appear relaxed and confident, (c) you talk to women like you are 2 normal people having a conversation; (d) your lack of interest allows women to feel comfortable getting to know you and is intriguing, (e) you don’t avoid women out of fear, while at the same time, you dont pursue them desperately either; you just behave normally and get to know people through normal social interaction.” When you get down to it, and past all the bullshit, thats pretty much the… Read more »
“””When you get down to it, and past all the bullshit, thats pretty much the point of game.””” No dude… Game is FAKING *some* of the the symptoms of being that guy. Game teaches you what to say to APPEAR like you are those things instead of being things. In what I describe you GENUINELLY have no want or desire to GET a woman or get anything FROM women. Game teaches you to GET women by doing xyz. What I describe involves no “targets”. Game is based around the concept of having a “target”. In game you have an OUTCOME… Read more »
AlekNovy
You are promoting learning to not be uninterested and waiting for women to come to you, so the AlekNovy method involves consciously faking that, until it becomes a habit, with the objective of baiting a target, do you see your false distinction?
You are talking about a style of game that Paul Elam promotes, as far as I know he is writing a book on it. Google Zeta Game.
EDIT – learning to be uninterested
“EDIT – learning to be uninterested” Btw, you still don’t get it. Its not about being “uninterested” – you try to fit everything in the old frame. Its about being interested in PEOPLE as cool people to get to know and socialize with. You don’t discriminate if some of these these happen to posses boobs or not. Its not about being either interested or disinterested sexually (or faking it). Its simply having a different focus. You focus on people as PEOPLE you get to know. Until the moment one of these people starts to get you sexual, you are only… Read more »
Dude, stop trying to fit everything in your frame. That’s so common of gamers. You try to re-contextualize everything to MAKE IT still be “game”. “”You are promoting learning to not be uninterested and waiting for women to come to you, “” Nope. I wait for women to: 1) PURSUE ME… 2) Be interested sexually first I still talk to and socialize with everyone. I don’t wait for women to ‘come to me”. I talk to everyone, and I come to everyone, with everyone including women. “”‘so the AlekNovy method Its not my method. Its brent smiths. He’s Rick H’s… Read more »
Alek I hope you realise that I’m not the “gamer” you think I am. In fact, my interpretation of what game is, its end point is – what you are describing and when these trainers send guys out to have “targets” and frames and so on, the point is to get them to a point where its natural and they no longer need to do those things and begin to socialise normally, but with natural game – what you are describing as “beyond game”. Im not trying to fit things into frames but I think that you are, unbeknownst to… Read more »
I hope you realise that I’m not the “gamer” you think I am. You might not think you are, but you display the exact same thought processes and try to label everything game using the same thought patterns that they do. Mind you, I’ve been involved with this stuff for 10 years or so. I’ve been in and around this stuff back when it was just mystery and a few dozen guys on a private forum, of which I knew a few personally. In fact, my interpretation of what game is, its end point is – what you are describing… Read more »
Im sorry Alek
You are the one making a big deal out of game here and getting upset about it and saying that you have been actively involved with it for 10 years and dropping names and so on. You a far more in game world than you think you are.
In fact, you appear to be so far in, you think that socialising without an agenda to pick up, treating women and men in the same way, not gaming, is some sort of a new idea when in fact, its what most people are already doing.
You are the one making a big deal out of game here and getting upset about it” Duh. I hate game. I despise game. I think its a vile thing that is stagnating the development of men in society. saying that you have been actively involved with it for 10 years No, I’ve been in and around the same spheres as the gamers for 10 years lol. Mostly the personal development and men’s issues circuits. In the first years I only saw game as a silly, harmless, stupidity that kids eventually grow out of. I hung out and was ok… Read more »
More specifically you think that socialising without an agenda to pick up Are you serious? 99% of guys immediatelly get a goal of getting the girl if she happens to be attractive (and he’s single/looking). The exact same second a guy realizes a woman is attractive to him, he starts seeing her as a sexual object and starts crafting an agenda. treating women and men in the same way, No they don’t. Most guys, the moment they see a “do-able” woman start treating her differently. They start sucking up to her, or cracking dumb jokes, or trying to impress her,… Read more »
My last post got me thinking about the bind that men are being put in here. Feminist culture, produces emasculated men, men without confidence or game. Generally women are attracted to men with game and men without game are rejected and labelled losers and creeps and that obviously presents a problem for men without game. So the options are accept being a loser and creep and accept celibacy or learn about game and try to get some. Obviously I’m making large generalization and I’m leaving out leaving out beta game, but catering and genuflecting to women is genuinely creepy and… Read more »
I think the fallacy you’re committing to here is that the men labeled “losers” and “creeps” might just be losers and creeps, respectively. Just because a woman turns a man down doesn’t mean he’s filed into one of those categories. Maybe he is just unattractive to her. I think there is a huge discrepancy between who men think they can get and who is willing to take that same man. If you think you’re going to walk up to a 9 and take her home, but you’re a 6 who is grievously ignorant/arrogant, it’s just not going to work, no… Read more »
No C.H I didnt commit that fallacy, as you can see in the last paragraph I said that I was making large generalizations. Then you go on to commit the same fallacy that you accused me of committing by making ill informed generalizations about the PUA community. This publication attracts a lot of arm chair experts on game, that don’t understand what it actually is. There is good unbiased discussion about game, a feminist POV verses a more honest and neutral POV. Try this discussion “Game Over? Denise Romano’s Critique of Pickup and Seduction”, it will give you a more… Read more »
Men who use the term “game” seriously should be the ones labelled as losers and creeps. No wonder they have to spend so much time and effort trying to get sex.
The game generally works in certain environments, like parties and bars, or with alcohol. But in other environments, when a woman’s mind is not on playing her own game, a guy just needs to find commonality to help build a woman’s trust. Once that trust is achieved, anything is possible. But then a guy still needs social grace. Don’t forget that women are not attracted to men the same way men are attracted to women. A guy can be an ugly mo-fo and a woman might become attracted to his intelligence. But there’s no way she can know his intelligence… Read more »
Men cannot be attracted to intelligence. Thanks. Good to know.
You know that for most men intelligence without looks is not enough. Not enough at all. Even for the ugly guys themselves.
that’s weird, because the guys i know with the most game—as in, the ones that GOT INTO MY PANTS—were the ones who a) identified as feminist b) followed a consent model—asking me questions and checking in if i liked what was going on c) had conversations with me, the ones that didn’t rely on either false compliments or cheesy backhanded insulpliments, but just conversations about the world, life, music, or what I/they were into in other words, feminists get laid. Not the faux nice guys (like these: http://www.thelmagazine.com/newyork/nice-guys-just-want-to-get-laid/Content?oid=1620401&show=comments) who want a gold star for not taking advantage of me in… Read more »
in other words, feminists get laid. Not the faux nice guys (like these: http://www.thelmagazine.com/newyork/nice-guys-just-want-to-get-laid/Content?oid=1620401&show=comments) who want a gold star for not taking advantage of me in my sleep—actual people who see me as a human being they would like to have a variety of sexual interactions with, and ask nicely. This is kind of weird because I was in a pick up lair and this was kind of the basis for a lot of the stuff we learned: i.e. how not to be needy. Of course the lair that I belonged to at the time emphasized other games: inner game… Read more »
On a side note, I’d like to know what women can do to let a guy down gently. Telling someone that you’re not interested is never easy or pleasant for the other person. What is the best way to go about doing it? If a woman is approached by a guy that she’s not into, what should she say?
That’s a difficult one I think because the present dating culture that women have created. The class system that females have invented for men, acceptable men, jerks, assholes, losers, creeps makes it difficult to let a guy down gently, the present solution is for a guy to position himself as the potential asshole or the jerk, for that you need the confidence, if he hasn’t got the confidence and women are labelling him a loser or a creep, his self esteem will be destroyed. Another thing is, reading Hugo’s saying that women are better than men, and seeing no complaints… Read more »
No woman I know thinks that all guys are either Brad Pitt, a jerk, or a creep. There are plenty of guys that seem perfectly good but, for whatever reason, you’re just not into. Maybe you just don’t click. Don’t fall into the trap of assuming that every woman who turns you down thinks that she’s better than you. There are so many other reasons why this could happen. You’re complaining that women label you, but at the same time, you’re putting women into two categories: available and snobby. It’s not fair, either. That being said, I’m still waiting for… Read more »
If a woman thinks a guys is great but she’s not attracted, then she should try getting to know him better to see if there something else that’s attractive besides his first impression.
Why? What if you don’t have time to get to know every guy better? You wouldn’t tell guys that they should spend time getting to know women that they really feel no attraction for. And what if you do get to know him better and you still aren’t into him — what then?
Then be polite, and say, “No, thank you. I’m not interested.” And smile!
Sorry, but putting time into being nice and getting to know a guy better when he’s clearly not attractive to you will waste his time and yours, and give him false hope so he’s humiliated and disappointed when you finally let him drop.
Lindsey I never said that I assume that every women that turns me down thinks that shes better than me, or care about what women label me, I generally fall into the categories of acceptable, asshole or jerk ,depending on various things. The last time I heard a woman label me, it was with “overconfident smart ass with a lovely smile” which I take to be a “neg”, women use negging more than men and the real meaning of what she said, “I find you attractive and would like to sleep with you”. I was talking about the dating scene… Read more »
Goto: I read the same article, and I didn’t get any of that “women are better than men” vibe you seem to think resonates in it. I’m a woman and I know that women aren’t better than men. Apples and oranges, man. Speaking of dating/pickup culture, perhaps women come out armed because the expectation is that men are constantly trying to sleep with you. I’m pretty sure though, that women didn’t come up with that idea all on their own. In bars, at the bus-stop at 6a.m., in the grocery store trying to buy dinner, picking up grandmas drycleaning…what good… Read more »
Hi girlgladfortheTGMP If you like and support TGMP, you are pretty much buying into the idea that men need to improve, that there are few good men and many un-good men and women are already good and deserve blanket respet regardless, thats the tone of the magazine. Does you user name not imply that you think there needs to be a project to improve men for use of women? As for the article the OP clearly states “the problem isn’t women expecting too much: it’s men offering too little.” You see because this message, is labelled eqality, it hids the… Read more »
having just been through an economics class, I would’ve killed for the dutch oven.
I understand dutch ovens.
Sorry. Tangent. Anyway…
Lindsey I never said that I assume that every women that turns me down thinks that shes better than me, or care about what women label me, I generally fall into the categories of acceptable, asshole or jerk ,depending on various things. The last time a female labeled me it was with “over confident smart ass with a lovely smile”. Which I believe is a neg and code for “under the right circumstances I’d like to sleep with you”. Anyway. I was talking about the dating scene in general. And the culture that you come from, where even your college… Read more »
Whatever you say to the guy, be sure to SAY IT, and SOON, with kindness, but leaving no ambiguity that you’re just not into him. Too many women just can’t bring themselves to tell a guy they really are not interested in him “that way.” So, they keep agreeing to dates with him, and coffee, and whatever, and he keeps falling deeper and deeper in love while you remain coldly indifferent and ever-more worried that you’re going to hurt him — a situation you have now guaranteed by not being honest right at the outset. There’s probably no way he… Read more »
Hmmm. I can see what you’re saying about not dragging things out, but what about those of us who don’t (typically) become sexually attracted to someone until we know them and are friends? That does not, of course, that I am sexually attracted to all of my friends, it simply means that I’m not going to be sexually attracted to anyone unless there is already mutual trust and respect between us.
I guess this explains why I’ve had less interest/experience with the dating scene and way more friends-with-benefits situations. Never really thought about it before.
If your neighbor you don’t like asked to borrow your car, would you turn them down directly? Probably not. First, you would hesitate in your response. Then you would make up some excuse.
Rejection is potentially painful and there is a good reason to sugar coat things:
http://eharrison.org/explicit-language-is-an-excellent-way-of-crea
Go to, I’m going to borrow your words from a different post and apply them here:
Men should take responsibility for their own emotions. Women can’t “make” men feel this way or that. Men are in charge of their own self esteem.
You, sir, a raging hypocrite.
I’m not sure I am Sara. In this case, I’m talking about direct and deliberate attacks on the self esteem of men with self esteem issues by the OP and females in out dating culture and I advocate men taking responsibility for their self esteem by engaging in programs like game, and I point out the hypocrisy of Hugo asking men to not attack the self esteem for the women he objectifies as sacred cows while in the same breath, attacking the self esteem of men. On the other thread we were talking about self esteem issues and beauty standards… Read more »
I smile, tilt my head slightly (subconsciously) and say, “Thank you, but I’m not interested,” or “I’m sorry, but I’m not really into this conversation,” or whatever. Show in your body language that you appreciate the gesture.
Being honest and friendly works best! It’s mature, confident, and unimpeachable! That’s the kind of girl that lets guys walk away after having been turned down yet still feel glad that they asked. The worst kind is the one who withdraws, turns a cold shoulder and offers some insincere “nice” excuse to cover it up.
Great question lindsay! Very constructive too. I think the key point here is that the way to letting a guy down easy isn’t in the words, but the attitude. I know women who never ever ever piss off not a single guy that they’ve rejected (even though they get propositioned all the time). What do they all have in common? A deep understanding and appreciation for how difficult it is to be in the initiator and pursuer role. They have a compassion, understanding and they get it. That’s why they can say no and it comes through in their tone… Read more »
What comes across as bitchiness or superiority may just be nervousness. If you have ever been in a job where you had to fire someone, it is not fun. Of course it is worse for the person being fired, but it’s still not fun for the supervisor. Most people don’t actually enjoy hurting someone else’s feelings. She may be socially awkward. Women can be socially awkward, just like men, she may not know how to react in a more friendly fashion. She may not realize how she’s coming across. It is also possible that if a woman reacts badly, she… Read more »
Susan. Everything you said is 100% spot on.
In fact, that’s one of the things I most often tell guys. I try to explain to guys that 90% of situations where they complain about a woman’s “bitchiness” – she was usually shy or awkward.
On the flip side, the same holds truth on the women’s side. Most of the time women accuse a guy of being a jerk, entitled, reeking of male privilege etc – most of the time its the guy being akward.
So that too is a unisex problem 🙂
In the case of good men, smile and say “Thanks for the compliment. I’m flattered but not interested.” It’s clear and kind, and acknowledges that asking a woman out can be hard. For men whom this does not suffice for, I sort of become a broken record. So – like this. HIM: “Hey, you’re lookin good, can I have your number?” ME: “Thanks for the compliment. I’m flattered but not interested.” HIM: “Come on girl, why do you have to be like that?” ME: “Again, thanks, but not interested.” HIM: “You’re just playing hard to get.” ME: “Still not interested.”… Read more »
Fema – its not about the words. Its about the attitude behind the words. I have female friends who say the EXACT same thing when letting a guy down, but one of them causes anger, and the other NEVER does. I genuinelly know a girl who’s had to rejects hundreds of guys and never had the conversation you described. Whereas some girls always have it. The girl who never does – she LOVES men, she feels a genuine sense of gratefulness, and she only has to say it once – and the guys walk away from her with a smile,… Read more »
Probably the best way to let men down is to be kind, direct, upfront and truthful. Pretty much all rejection pretty much hurts to some degree and is unavoidable. Most mature individuals and healthy individuals should be able to deal with it.
I think that insulting anyone, particularly someone you don’t even know, is rude. Period. The fact that this can manipulate people who already have low self esteem makes it that much worse. If these women are so stuck up, why even bother? Wouldn’t it be better to just go talk to someone else instead of wasting your time trying to devise little strategies on how to win them over? Besides, if someone is so intent on finding a good looking “alpha” male, one little insult probably isn’t going to help. I mean, does anyone think that “I don’t like your… Read more »
Well said Lindsay. What you pointed out is one of the most TOXIC things about PUA-culture. I regularily get into fights with PUAs about this part. Its like a cult that instills completely irrational beliefs. A PUA, being in the community for a while believes that its “better” if you had to “make” a woman want you. Its a common frame that is installed onto guys when they enter it. Like a guy will for example meet the most beatiful, smartest, coolest, most supportive woman ever – but his PUA buddies will say “it’s not solid game”. If he asks… Read more »
haha yeah, that’s crazy. If that’s how they feel then they will probably never have a healthy relationship. I feel that attraction is best when it’s mutual – not when it’s forced.
Blame romance novels or television shows, pop psychology or feminism (the MRAs are especially fond of pinning all their woes on the last of these), but 21st century American women are too demanding—or so these lads claim. They want hot bods and fat wallets and empathy, like some perfect fusion of Johnny Depp, Mark Zuckerberg, and Dr. Drew. All things being equal, it’s probably true that the vast majority of us would like our partners to have hot bods and empathy, and a lot of us would like them to have fat wallets as well. But that isn’t really the… Read more »
That article also shows that 2/3 of men are pursuing the women who are in the top 1/3 attractiveness and ignoring a lot of cute women in the middle, whereas male attractiveness is somewhat less important to women.
“That article also shows that 2/3 of men are pursuing the women who are in the top 1/3 attractiveness”
Susan, I believe the data means that men invest 2/3 of their effort attempting to get the top 1/3 of women. They don’t actually reject the bottom 2/3 of women. Its number of attempts made, not number of men making attempts 🙂
Its like, you might invest 2x more effort trying to get into a prestigious university, but you’re not rejecting the non-prestigious one if you don’t make it into the prestigious one.
Women are not universities. But okay, let;s say that men care more about the university’s building than about the qualifications of it’s teachers. Men still prefer the hottest ones, and believe they are entitled to them, as typical. Most women of course would enjoy a hot guy, but they are very much more forgiving. Also, I guess you understand how most average looking women try their best to be cute and are very vain, while the average guy… only basic hygiene. And that, I am sorry to say, does not help men. That is the reason most average looking women… Read more »
First, Susan, I think AlekNovy makes a valid point. Moreover, it’s not at all clear how much less important male physical attractiveness is to women than female physical attractiveness is to men. As I noted when this point came up at FC, the notion that it’s less important to women … … is actually an incorrect impression because of the way one very important piece of information is absent from that otherwise interesting OKCupid post: namely, that women are far less likely than men to initiate a message in the first place. I couldn’t find the chart that showed exactly… Read more »
WOW, I CAME BACK AND SO MANY COMMENTS ARE DELETED!
Funny you should say that. This is not the fiorst time that has happened here.
http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2011/05/18/questioning-%e2%80%98sexual-slavery%e2%80%99-at-the-good-men-project-noh/
On one of Tom’s threads, they removed all the comments after some of the peanut gallery accused him of “misogyny”– crap of course.
One of the deficiencies of this site is the number of feminist “supervisors” who think this is boot camp for changing men. Men are what they are. They should be the best they can be, that taken into account. I like feminism, but I and most other men will never be or even think much like a woman.