What’s less authentic than entering into a ‘spontaneous’ social interaction with a script? Hugo Schwyzer argues that ‘negging’ isn’t cool.
Maybe you’ve heard a line like this at a party or in a bar, from a man to a woman he barely knows:
“You have a pretty face, but you’d be even prettier if you’d lose the bangs.”
Chances are, unless it’s coming from a gay hairstylist trolling for clients, that you’ve just witnessed a “neg-hit,” the basic tactic in “negging.”
If there’s one technique in the pick-up artist (PUA) repertoire about which I hear more often than anything else, it’s “negging.” The urban dictionary helpfully defines negging as “the offering of low-grade insults meant to undermine the self-confidence of a woman so she might be more vulnerable to your advances.” The idea is simple: women, particularly beautiful ones, are so accustomed to compliments that they’ve grown immune to their power. But make a “hot” woman think you don’t think she’s all that, and she’ll be eating out of your hand. Or so the peddlers of seduction wisdom would have their customers believe.
Though I’m suspicious of most of what the professional PUAs are selling, I do appreciate that they’re meeting a very real need. We live in a culture where heterosexual men are still frequently expected to be the initiators, to make the first move. For many men who lack the requisite self-confidence and self-esteem to approach a woman in a way that won’t annoy or unnerve her, the PUAs teach valuable techniques. Some of those techniques are solid common sense; others are soaked in misogyny. Some men who pay significant sums to be coached in “game” are happy with the results, some aren’t. But almost all are, at one point or another, taught to “neg.”
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The problem with negging (whether it’s done as part of formal PUA technique or not) is that it’s rooted in men’s suspicion that too many women think too highly of themselves. Listen to PUAs and Men’s Rights Activists (MRAs), and you’ll hear a familiar litany: most women expect too much. Blame romance novels or television shows, pop psychology or feminism (the MRAs are especially fond of pinning all their woes on the last of these), but 21st century American women are too demanding—or so these lads claim. They want hot bods and fat wallets and empathy, like some perfect fusion of Johnny Depp, Mark Zuckerberg, and Dr. Drew.
So the “neggers” believe that the only way to combat women’s inflated sense of self-worth and expectation is to tear down their self-esteem. They operate on the cruel calculation that the less a woman believes she deserves, the more likely she is to “settle” for the likes of the game-playing PUA. Certainly, there’s a ton of anecdotal evidence to support the hypothesis that women’s low self-esteem is connected to a willingness to sleep with (and remain in relationships with) men who will treat them badly.
In their own defense, PUAs who neg claim that all they’re really trying to do is differentiate themselves from the legions of men who use and abuse compliments. Plenty of women have experience being on the receiving end of the cheesy flattery that is the standard stuff of traditional opening lines. “Am I in heaven? Because I’m looking at an 
angel” is likely to elicit an eye-roll and a snort.
The insincerity of these sorts of compliments is obvious, and as a result, their effectiveness is limited at best. The PUAs argue that by negging, they’re offering a genuinely honest alternative to the usual hokum of the bar scene. No woman really is an angel, after all; expressing limited, critical interest through a quick neg-hit (a one-line backhanded compliment) will be perceived, they hope, as more authentic. It works in part because of women’s insecurity, but it also works because effective negging is rooted in a tiny kernel of truth. (The opening example about a woman’s bangs only works if the woman actually has hair covering her forehead.)
The true effectiveness of this game, of course, lies in its subtle suggestion that the PUA has taken the time to notice the woman he’s negging. Many women—perhaps particularly stereotypically attractive women—have plenty of experience being stared at by men. They have less experience of feeling seen. The mixture of compliment and insult suggests both the absence of desperation (an admittedly attractive quality) and at least a glimmer of interest (otherwise, why would the negger speak up in the first place.). Used skillfully, there’s little question that negging can work.
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Bullying and threats of violence can also get guys what they want. We have to do more than ask “what works,” we need to ask “is it worth using?” As tempting as it can be to buy into the myth that “women expect too much” and deserve to be taken down a peg, the reality is that most women don’t expect a fusion of Brad Pitt and Deepak Chopra. While there certainly are some women who have grossly unrealistic assumptions about what a relationship with a man can and should provide, men also tend to exaggerate the loftiness of women’s expectations. Wanting a guy to be well-groomed and equipped with a basic vocabulary for his own emotional terrain are not unreasonable desires. In most cases, the problem isn’t women expecting too much: it’s men offering too little.
But if the PUAs are wrong to try and work to reduce both women’s self-esteem and their expectations, they’re right to remind all of us that compliments grow stale and meaningless from overuse. They are right as well to encourage men not merely to stare but to take notice. And they are right that what we’re all hungry for is greater authenticity. Except, what’s less authentic than entering into a “spontaneous” social interaction with a script, feigning a mix of candor and lack of interest in the hopes of sparking curiosity and desire? Guys can do better than that.
—photo vagueonthehow/Flickr
About Hugo Schwyzer
The ongoing GMP obsession with male game that ignores the fact that female game is not much different but is more widely practised.
My understanding of the NEG is that its not designed to attack the self esteem at all, the purpose is to tease and demonstrate that you are “higher status” (the ground that women usually occupy as the choosers and more often deft users of game) by not taking the role of the much more common “beta male” sycophant, Hugo.
Tell me Hugo, does the idea of your betters nagging men or behaving in ways intended to negatively effect the self esteem of men concern you too?
This bits funny ..
“For many men who lack the requisite self-confidence and self-esteem to approach a woman in a way that won’t annoy or unnerve her”
where you simultaneously pedestalise women, set the gender roles up in the traditional way, attack the self esteem of men that lack confidence and self esteem and endorse “creep shaming” and irrational fear of men..
Hey up, you will quickly come to see that there is a type of feminism that is really just White Knighting chivalry.
Here’s a woman’s description of this approach:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/2011/03/16/the-one-good-man/
Jim,
whats really funny to me is the obliviousness to the fact that Hugo and TGMP take on the role of the father with the shotgun protecting his daughters from the men that can charm their way into their panties (I thought that was patriarchal oppression?) and the supposedly strong, independent, sex positive feminist women that cheer on this traditional paternalism and white knighting.
Negging is a disgusting behavior. It entirely reliant on emotional manipulation intended to convince someone that they should sleep with another. I know a man who uses this tactic with women, and the only women who will give him any attention are 18-year-olds, fresh out of high school, who don’t know any better. Of course, 6 or so months later, they dump him because he’s a world-class manipulating, emotionally abusive ass.
If negging is something you enjoy, I will assume you are an abusive person. There is no other reason anyone would find “negging” to be an acceptable way to approach a person.
I have to wonder if guys who think negging works are the sort of guys who get their notions of science from the Professor on “Gilligan’s Island.”
Of course negging works. What PUAs call “negging” (and what others call “typecasting”, cf. The Gift of Fear) is a predatory social strategy, and as such works by manipulating people into certain desired reactions.
And that, not men’s expectations of women, is really the problem with negging. Its use in the PUA community may well stem from the attitude that women are too uppity and there’s a moral pleasure in knocking them down a peg; but that’s not why it works.
The majority of social strategies work by manipulating people into certain desired reactions. Hugo’s assertion that men essentially are not good enough for women is an excellent example of that. It is a very cruel thing to say to people with low self-esteem, as is implying that they are predators. However, it does work very well at getting them angry and further damaging what little self-confidence or esteem they have left. The latter strikes actually me as predatory and malicious. Negging strikes me as underhanded.
Precisely. Negging is underhanded. That’s why it’s given a pejorative adjective like ‘manipulative’ and being politely straight-forward is not. As for the idea that Hugo is saying men aren’t good enough for women, this isn’t one of those occasions. Pointing out some men are insufficient is hardly a takedown of us as a gender.
All manipulation is not necessarily negative. After all, being straight-forward is another way of manipulating people into liking you by being painfully honest. I think the only reason for the pejorative adjective is because of the sex that uses negging. If the other sex did it (like playing hard to get), I do not think anyone would complain.
As for your defense of Hugo, I suppose one could argue that he is not saying men are not good enough for women, except for the part where he stated, “In most cases, the problem isn’t women expecting too much: it’s men offering too little.” That sounds a lot like men — not some men, but men in general — are not good enough for women.
Got any Lost in Space references queued up too?
Here come the feminists that have less of an idea about game than TGMP resident “experts” with the false allegations of abuse.
Congrats, you really showed that straw man what he had coming!
I’ve occasionally checked in on the seduction community for a long time and the author is describing an ancient , outmoded ploy that was only encouraged in rare situations (i.e. when first talking to model-types) and was more of a playful mocking than an insult anyway. If you think a guy could say something truly hurtful within minutes of meeting a women (the context of the classic “neg”) and have any success, you probably have more to learn about women than the saps on PUA forums.
The urban dictionary helpfully defines negging as “the offering of low-grade insults meant to undermine the self-confidence of a woman so she might be more vulnerable to your advances.”
The Urban Dictionary? Really? Why did you not quote directly from a PUA site? It is their concept, so would they not be the authorities on what “negging” means?
Out of curiosity, I visited a couple of sites. Pualingo defines negging as “a backhanded compliment or similar comment that is used to bring hot women down a notch”. The site goes on to state, “It is important to note that a neg hit is not an insult. Rather, it is an often humorous comment used to communicate active disinterest. New guys often make the mistake of insulting women, or being mean to them. That is not the point of negs, and they should never be used to make women feel bad about themselves.” It also listed examples, such as “Your nose wiggles when you talk! … It’s so cute! … Look at it! There it goes again!” and “You have really big ears, don’t worry, I think its cute, kind of like a bunny”.
Several other sites listed the similar definitions, so it appears PUAs define negging completely different than the article suggests.
Well what would they know about a concept they invented themselves? This tactic of directly denying what people say about thier own experiences is standard practice for Hugo. He has done it here, and he did it inan article in the Guardian on CiF. AllyF called him on it and called it intolerable. Good call. Hasn’t helped much apparently.
I love insults myself, but “Lose the bangs” doesn’t sound like a compliment to me. By the way, is there some point to bringing hot women down a notch? Does it make them more salacious when one wanks to mental images of them later?
Catullus
Your reaction is one in response to the OP’s straw man version of what it a neg is. Jacobtk has published a more accurate definition a few post above.
Sorry but those examples just seem incredible stupid to me. They aren’t insulting, they are just idiotic. But hey, go for it, what do I know.
Good column, I suppose, but you’d have to be a pretty broken person to not know on some level that this kind of creepy manipulation is wrong. What’s next, 800 words on why punching people in the face to get what you want isn’t OK?
(see the two justifications so far: “Hey up” with “she did it too!” and Jacobtk with “it’s not an insult, it’s more a more clever and subtle form of manipulation than that!”)
It is a justification; it is a clarification. The definition Hugo presented is wrong. That is not what PUAs actually believe or practice. If Hugo views negging as insulting women, he is more than welcome to do so. However, he should also accurately state how PUAs define the theory. Otherwise he risks creating a false impression of negging that misleads his readers.
But in your earlier comment, you note that PUAs do in fact treat negging as “bringing hot women down a notch”.
Yes, it does, the same way that ignoring a wealthy person’s expensive merchandise or a professor’s degrees in whatever brings them down a notch. It sends the message that you do not take them as important or as serious as they take themselves. That is a little different than insulting them.
Why do you assume that an attractive woman is stuck up or takes herself too seriously? “Bringing her down a notch” kind of implies that you think attractive women must be stuck up bitches who should be put in their place.
Luckily, as I said in another comment, I think women are smart enough to figure out fairly quickly that “negging” is just a technique for hitting on them. It’s the 2000′s version of “hey baby what’s your sign.”
Why do you assume that an attractive woman is stuck up or takes herself too seriously?
I made no such assumptions. I simply corrected Hugo’s misleading definition. That said, many attractive women have massive egos and are not afraid to give off the “you’re not good enough for me” or “I’m too good for you” vibe. I make no effort to court women at all, yet I have noticed that my disinterest in attractive women bugs the crap out of them, and about half the time results in them flirting with me. If you are used to getting attention, when you do not get attention it gets your attention. That is my understanding of the purpose of negging.
Luckily, as I said in another comment, I think women are smart enough to figure out fairly quickly that “negging” is just a technique for hitting on them.
I suspect most people would catch that. However, it does not matter whether women know they are being hit on. What matters is whether it works. From what I can tell, it works very well precisely because it is so disarming.
Maybe it’s not that they think they are too good for you; maybe they are just tired of constantly being pestered. They’ve learned if they are nice, guys won’t leave them alone and they will be stuck in an awkward conversations 24-7 when they are just trying to go about their lives. Yes, they may be overlooking really great guys that way but if a woman is constantly being approached, there is no way she can spend time getting to know every single guy who talks to her. That is really sexist of you to assume that if a woman isn’t instantly I to you, it’s all about her massive ego. If I said that men have massive egos I’d have guys on this board jumping up and down about my misandry.
That is really sexist of you to assume that if a woman isn’t instantly I to you, it’s all about her massive ego.
It would be if I stated that or if I cared what attractive women think of me. But I did not and do not. I stated, “many attractive women have massive egos and are not afraid to give off the ‘you’re not good enough for me’ or ‘I’m too good for you’ vibe”. If you disagree, fine. That does not make my statement any less true, and that statement also applies to attractive men.
As for attractive women getting tired of being pestered, that is not a good excuse for crushing someone’s self-esteem, particularly someone who is being sincere. Just as it only took once for you to get put off by negging, it only takes once for men to get put off by an insensitive rejection.
What is a “sensitive rejection”? If I say in absolutely the nicest way possible, “I’m sorry but I am not attracted to you and I don’t want to see you” — that’s still going to hurt. It may crush a guy’s self esteem no matter what the woman does. There is just no way around it. Actually a lot of women do feel bad and don’t want to hurt a guy’s feelings, but they end up being too indirect, and then men accuse them of being flakey or inconsistent.
It appears you answered you own question.
Regarding your other point, I suspect some women do want to spare men’s feelings. However, I also suspect some women do not care about men’s feelings and that some intentionally hurt men’s feelings . There is no way for men to tell which is which, and there is certainly no reason why a man who constantly gets rejected will assume every woman tried to let him down easy.
Here is a suggestion that I think might help feminists when discussing this topic: empathize with these men. That is THE key thing that so few feminists do. Most men know what it is like to receive benign rejection. We all know what it is like not to get chosen. Few women know what it is like to face public rejection, to literally put yourself out there and do EVERYTHING and then wait to be judged. It is not easy. This flippant way of treating men like undeserving trash because they have the misfortune of not being good at approaching people does not help matters. Honestly, you are actually making it worse by implying that those men deserve to be alone.
I do empathize with men. It is not fun to be rejected. But I’ve been in situations where I may have been a little curt with a guy because he was approaching me in context where I was busy, occupied with something else or I just didn’t feel like talking to him at that particular moment, or I felt uncomfortable. For example, I remember a guy on the bus made small talk for 2 minutes then asked me to go have a drink with him and I said no because he was a complete stranger and I felt cornered (the bus was crowded). He tried to talk me into it and finally I got irritated and told him to leave me alone. He seemed upset and I feel bad if he went away feeling like he was cruelly rejected but he really didn’t leave me any choice in that situation. He seemed like a reasonable guy but he moved too fast and was pestering me. If he’d just asked for my phone number then called me later for coffee I might have said yes. Im not going to jump off the bus and go have a drink right that second. Did he have poor social skills? Yes. Is that my fault? No. I did not intentionally hurt his feelings.
Maybe you can give me some ideas about how I could handle a situation like that better. It was very awkward and I did actually regret getting somewhat bitchy with him.
Reject TGMP’s silly campaign against male game and the snake oil salesman “experts” that are brought in to help, ironically, they seem to be as bad as some of the snake oil salesmen that are selling game.
TGMP readers, you should go to more reliable sources..
“- Game is not shiny pedants and cheesy pickup lines
- Game is not solely useful for finding one-night stands in clubs
- Game is not being an asshole, lying to girls, acting “fake”
- Game is not irrelevant to men in long term relationships
Game is actually incredibly simple. It’s just the study of how your behaviour affects women. Are you interested in women? Yes? Than you’re interested in Game. It doesn’t matter if you want to rack up notches, or keep your wife of 15 years sweet, fit and sexually available – learn game, and your life will get a whole lot easier.”
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/02/11/how-to-learn-game-in-one-week/
Here is the problem… There are so many women and feminist men who are trying to teach men how to pick up women “ethically” but none of these suggestions work. I’m one of the targets for this sort of thing, I’m shy, sensitive, quiet, and probably far too passive since I have a tendency to let people walk all over me. Why do people like me go spend money for the PUA stuff and turn into these “misogynist monsters”? Because we’re tired of being alone, nothing has worked, and we want results. Do the PUA folks prey on men who lack self-confidence? Sure, some of them. But there’s no effective ethical advice to be found. I’ll use myself as an example. I’m 22, I’ve never been on a date, and I really have no self confidence. I probably should have self confidence — I do have a lot of things going for me — but I definitely have flaws. I have gynecomastia (breast tissue in men) which cannot be addressed through surgery due to another issue, and I had pretty bad acne as a teenager which has pretty much cleared up but there is a little scarring left over. With that said, I’m tall, I have very attractive facial features, I am in excellent physical shape, I am a classically trained musician, I have my own apartment, I own my own business, and I can cook.
Unfortunately, I’ve never had a woman respond favorably to me in person. I have trouble thinking of things to say. If I give a woman a genuine compliment, I’ll get a response like, “thanks” and then I have no idea where to go from there. Everyone is always saying, “be authentic” but if I’m authentic I’m really emotional, and sensitive, and effeminate. I’ve had a very traumatizing life; my entire childhood is one painful memory after another.
So what sort of advice is there for me? How do I get help to ethically pick up a woman who will hopefully like me? Do I want sex? Like you wouldn’t believe. But, I also want someone to hug and be hugged by, someone to hold hands with, someone to talk to, someone to kiss, someone to snuggle with, someone I can trust. The only advice I ever hear from the “ethical crowd” is get self confidence or keep trying or your time will come or wait for a girl to come to you. Unfortunately, none of this is actionable or useful. I have yet to do any of the unsavory PUA stuff because I adhere to such a strict code of ethical integrity that I am unable to do something that I can even perceive as unethical. So much so that it is often to my own detriment.
Look at it this way: Suppose a woman came to talk to you, and said something like
“Wow, you’re actually not bad loking at all! Shame about the manboobs, though.”
That would be nasty and cruel, wouldn’t it? That’s the trouble with PUA crap. No one, and especially women, don’t need any more hostility in their lives.
“I have trouble thinking of things to say. If I give a woman a genuine compliment, I’ll get a response like, “thanks” and then I have no idea where to go from there.”
How about asking her something about herself? Maybe telling her about your work as a musician, talking about some recent news item, something. Yeah, it’s probably often going to be kind of awkward for both of you. But that’s how the human mating dance goes. It’s not easier for any of us.
That isn’t playful, that is actually factually cruel. Especially women don’t need more hostility in their lives? You couldn’t just leave it at no one? Also, I’m not sure how you can say it isn’t easier for anyone when it is certainly easier for almost everyone. ESPECIALLY women. I’m sorry, but having to put yourself out there to get rejected and initiate is much harder than not having to do so.
I don’t know how you can say things are “easier” for women. I agree the dating scene is incredibly cruel but it is cruel to women as well. The only women who have is easy (maybe*) are the minority of women who are considered “hot.” If you are a woman who is too intelligent, too nerdy, a little overweight, big nose or whatever, you will just as scorned and rejected as any so-called “beta male.”
*I don’t know if things are so easy for hot women, either. Some of the women who are “hot” spend an inordinate amount of time and energy on their appearance because of deep insecurity, eating disorders and so on.
I can say things are easier for women because in 9 out of 10 instances, the man is the one who initiates. He makes the approach. You don’t have to be hot to have a man approach you — you might have to be hot if you want a gorgeous, wealthy, brilliant, funny man to approach you — but even the “too intelligent, too nerdy, a little overweight, big nose, whatever” woman WILL get approached by men. They won’t get approached as much as the hot women but that still doesn’t change the fact that the man has to initiate almost every single time which is much harder than waiting for them to come to you.
Well I think you are wrong about that. Women who aren’t perceived as f*ckable are invisible; they rarely if ever get approached. Men don’t even see them; it’s like they don’t exist. And a woman who is less attractive knows she can’t initiate because unattractive women who want sex or relationships are perceived as comically desperate or slutty.
How many women though are truly at that level? I’d wager that number is fairly close to zero. Regardless of how unattractive, heavy, whatever the woman is, there are men who are going to approach her. If a woman is significantly overweight, she won’t be approached very often and probably not by the quality of man she dreams of, but she is definitely going to get overweight men approaching her.
This just isn’t true. There are a lot of women who struggle just like you do. There are a lot of women who don’t get asked out on dates. Even overweight men like thin/average girls. As I mentioned before, I have a friend that is in a situation similar to yours and she’s not obese by any means. It’s been literally years since she’s been asked on a date and she’s one of the most social, personable people that I know. It’s baffling to me. Dating is difficult for both genders.
Susan, even though I disagree with most of CJ’s negativity, and some of the stuff he says is negative exaggerations – he did get this one right.
Even an overweight, shy, non-social and uncommunicative woman will still get asked out by overweight guys.
The only women I know who get asked out less often than once a year, are women who are hermits and don’t leave the house.
As a woman, one literally has to not leave the house and refuse to go to any social event ever – to literally have no love-life or love-offers.
Put more simply, a woman has to be in the bottom 2% to have no offfers at all.
A man has to be in the top 2% to get frequent offers.
Now personally I believe its easy to become one of the top 2%, because so few men know how – its easy, just socialize, be charismatic and talk to everyone. Personally I’ve gone from being the creepy guy to being the guy women approach and ask out – so I’ve run the full gamut.
Susan said:
“And a woman who is less attractive knows she can’t initiate because unattractive women who want sex or relationships are perceived as comically desperate or slutty.”
Isn’t that a universal issue? I don’t see how its a female issue. A man who’s not attractive in the ways women find attractive “can’t initiate” because he’ll be labelled a creep.
Trust me, being labeled a potential serial killer is much worse than being labeled desperate or needy.
Also, those women aren’t in a double-bind. The guy is told he’s a loser if he’s not pursuing women, but told he’s a creep if he does.
Men and women both face challenges in dating. The best thing to do is to work on reducing those challenges, rather than arguing over who has it worse.
CJ, it sounds like you’re really having a tough time. I definitely sympathize with you. I have a friend that sounds like the female version of you and the situation is tough on her, too. I don’t agree with PUAs, but I understand how you could be drawn to them. If your self esteem is the issue, you should focus on that, rather than on women. Therapy may be helpful, or maybe just talking about with some friends. Having a painful childhood is so hard on a person and you don’t have to go it alone.
From your post, it really sounds like you have a lot going for you. You seem like a nice guy and, if I knew you, I would personally volunteer to be your wing woman.
Having a tough time would be an understatement. Unfortunately, some of my self esteem issues cannot be addressed (the gynecomastia to to specific) and another big self esteem issue is the lack of being able to get a date. Nothing savages a man’s self esteem like constant failure to get a date/girlfriend.
The only things left really are making more money — something I’m always focusing on — and getting in better shape even though I’m already in great shape. I tried the focus on me and let the women come as they will from the age of 19 to 21 and that didn’t work at all… instead of getting rejected I got neither rejected nor approached.
As for therapy… I’ve already tried that multiple times and it really isn’t too helpful. The hardest part about having such a terrible childhood is that it is a lose/lose/lose situation with women. Even simple questions are dangerous territory for me which leaves me with three options. 1. I can play coy and not answer the question (which usually results in the woman complaining how I’m not forthright). 2. I can lie, which doesn’t really form the foundation of honest discourse. 3. I can tell the truth and then watch as they try to extricate themselves without looking like they’re put off by the reality of the situation. #3 is the worst because it isn’t like I had control over any of those things, and yet I am the one who suffers for them (as if I haven’t already suffered enough because I experienced them).
All the basic “lets get to know each other” questions are a minefield of danger for me. I typically just resort to lying these days, but it can be a challenge to keep things straight (especially when drinking) and one lie builds on another and makes my already poor conversational skills markedly worse.
I completely agree that not having a person to date would be a huge blow to anyone’s self esteem. Anyone in your shoes would feel like you do. Therapy is more helpful to some than others – I think that it depends on the therapist. Try a bunch of therapists with different styles and if it doesn’t work, ditch it. I honestly think that a compassionate friend that knows you well can work just as well in some situations.
You don’t owe anyone your life history. If you need to tell a white lie here or there, it’s no one’s business but yours. If you end up dating a girl, she should be able to understand why you felt the need to not reveal your past to someone you barely knew. As long as you don’t let the deception continue on for too long, I don’t think that it should be too big of an issue. You can also try to steer the conversation away from your past – you’re a 22 year old man that has a lot of really interesting hobbies. It would also be well within your rights to say something vague like “To be honest, my childhood wasn’t that great. I’d rather talk about (insert topic here).” Most people will understand.
CJ, reading your posts, it sounds like you might struggle with your confidence on occasion. That may be what some women pick up on. Plenty of women will dismiss you if you do not fit the stereotypical perfect man. However, sometimes women do not respond to your advances because those advances may not be backed by confidence. That is one thing that PUAs definitely get right: feeling good about yourself helps more than anything else.
It is true that approaching someone is much harder than waiting to be approached. However, it is not as hard as you think it is. The worst that will happen are some insults. Most of the time women will brush you off. That stings, but the way they respond to you says more about their character than yours. So do not let that get to you. I find that the men who are most successful with women are confident and/or do not worry about rejection. If it happens it happens, and if it does not it does not.
On occasion would be quite the understatement. I just find it hard to be confident approaching women when every single one has ruthlessly rejected me. It isn’t like I haven’t tried approaching a good amount of women — I’ve approached a lot — and people say it gets easier, but it only gets harder for me.
I’d probably feel a little better if I weren’t 0-59 and the fact that I remember everything is even worse because I remember every rejection in vivid detail. Obviously, not letting rejection get to me and not worrying about it is the goal but, like everything, it is easier said than done and how to not let rejection get to me… that’s something I have never found and have never been told.
CJ, there is no easy way to let rejection not bother you. Rejection hurts. It makes men feel unworthy and undeserving of partnership, attention, opportunity, and love. That should be a basic thing that everyone would agree on, but biased political views have a way of sidestepping people’s emotional experiences.
You cannot avoid getting hurt, but you can control how much you let rejection hurt you. Consider it this way: before you approached the woman you had no date. After you got rejected, you still had no date. Were you devastated before you approached her? No. Were you an unlikable person? No. Were you uninteresting? No. Were you untalented? No. So essentially nothing has changed. You are no worse off than you were before, and you certainly are no worse a person than you were before (contrary to the some of the opinions expressed above).
As a trained musician you have probably experienced rejection if someone did not like your playing. Do you let that determine whether you will keep playing? Probably not, right? The same logic applies to approaching women. Likewise, when you play classical music your confidence comes through the music. Even if someone dislikes your playing, if you put everything you had into it, you probably will not let that one person’s rejection shake your desire to play. The same logic applies with getting rejected by women.
Again, there is no easy way to cope with rejection. However, most of us experience enough of it to understand that it is not the end of the world. The “be yourself” advice is not the best advice, but it is good advice to the extent that you ought to be true to yourself and feel good about yourself. That might make you more successful in your approached, but it will definitely help you deal with rejection. It is a process, not an overnight thing.
Look, you have my sympathy. I was in the same boat at 22, and a few years beyond that. It’s not fun. But it’s also not an excuse to be a jerk, and while it’s an unfortunate circumstance, it’s not any woman’s fault, and to treat and individual woman, or women as a group, as if it is, makes you kind of a jerk. All kind of jerky
“The only advice I ever hear from the “ethical crowd” is get self confidence or keep trying or your time will come or wait for a girl to come to you. Unfortunately, none of this is actionable or useful.”
Actually, it’s very good advice. The reason it’s not actionable is that you’re not in a place to figure out how to make it work for you. I sincerely hope you get there before you become too bitter or hateful for it to matter. PUA BS will accerate the latter process, while retarding the former, even if you do manage to get laid out of it.
I’m not a jerk, I haven’t demonstrated any jerkiness, and the fact that you come out and suggest that I am some how a jerk, is, in fact, demonstrative of you being an a-hole.
How is advice that is not actionable useful? I’m just curious how something that cannot actually be used can be useful?
Hey djw, from CJ’s post, it sounded like he tends to focus on the more helpful aspects of PUA (social skills, confidence building, etc.). He never mentions the more offensive aspects, like treating women as numbers or negging – in fact, he even mentions his experience giving women compliments. I agree that a small portion of guys will use their personal struggles as an excuse to treat women badly, but I don’t think that that’s what CJ is doing.
CJ, I agree with djw that the advice actually is good advice. The problem is that the people who give the advice tend to not remember their audience. Telling someone who has self-esteem issues to “have confidence” isn’t going to be super helpful. Understanding what needs to improve and how to improve it are two different things.
I think that the problem is that addressing the actual, underlying problems, such as your lack of confidence, is something that is very personal to you. Someone who doesn’t know you probably can’t give you advice that would actually be helpful. PUA advice may be more helpful for right now, but it’s generic and a type of band-aid. It’s not going to help you with any of the underlying causes.
That being said, I do think that people who are shy can get decent advice for how to be more comfortable in conversation. For example, because music is one of your interests, it would benefit you to try to meet people through that. If you engage someone in a conversation about music, a compliment like, “Oh you have good taste!” would be much easier to follow up than “nice shoes”. Try to gear your compliments toward something that you are comfortable talking about. You sound athletic, so talking about that would probably be good, too. Most women have at least one physical hobby. Even if you like weight lifting and she like aerobics classes, you can still have a conversation about how much you like going to the gym. It sounds like you have a pretty active, interesting life, so I think that you would have a lot of things to use as conversation items.
There are plenty of women that are interested in male game and contribute to the knowledge pool and the community and confirm that the community is correct about what works and the way that women think. presumably these women are grown up and emotionally and sexually competent enough to navigate the present dating market with out feeling the need to call for help from willing chaperons and father figures like Hugo and TGMP.
Ironically enough, the present sexual market, and the pua community that evolved to suit the new conditions, are products of feminism.
Hey JC
If in reality, “pua crap” was really about saying things like “Wow, you’re actually not bad loking at all! Shame about the manboobs, though.” as you are trying to lead others to believe don’t you think that it would be a massive failure rather than the most comprehensive and intelligent collection of literature on attraction thats out there and whats more, proven to work for many?
This article and the feminist responses are very typical, OP sets up a straw man, feminists attack it…
Whats more the cruelest practice on the dating scene is the practice of labeling guys that don’t have game, creeps, which is something akin to “sex criminal”.
I think that its hilarious watching feminists spluttering and freaking out when, female game, dating gender roles and female dating privilege are challenged by male game.
Wow, every time I hear about a PUA technique, I feel horrified. I’m filing this one away as a red flag that says “avoid this one.”
Just looking over Hugo’s misleading piece here and it really is vile.
He links male game to violence and abuse, and then this…
“Wanting a guy to be well-groomed and equipped with a basic vocabulary for his own emotional terrain are not unreasonable desires. In most cases, the problem isn’t women expecting too much: it’s men offering too little”.
In other words, any man that wants to use male accumulated knowledge of attraction, is a scruffy emotional retard. See how little this misandrist, paternalist, white knight [redacted] thinks of most men, and how he places women as their betters.
Hugo, no doubt the more emotionally and mentally vulnerable, demographic of women (feminists) you play your beta male “all-men-are -scary -emotional -retards -that -don’t- wash- themselves-except -for- me- you- can- trust -me -please- give -me- validation” manipulative game with, that you have been playing for years now lap this up, but more intelligent people are going to call it what it is. Creepy and disingenuous.
Congratulations on making a career out of frightening vulnerable women and putting me down.
edit
Congratulations on making a career out of frightening vulnerable women and putting me down.
By “male accumulated knowledge of attraction”, you mean “well-known principles of manipulative social behavior”. The PUA community may call it negging, but they didn’t invent the practice.
Mythago
Male game covers a very broad area, here we are just discussing Hugos misunderstanding of what a neg is and the definition he lazily got from urbane dictionary.
He set out to mislead the reader here and is playing to his crowd by frightening his emotionally vulnerable and followers and putting men down. (Probably a game that Hugo developed to manipulate women, it has all the hall marks of a manipulative strain of “beta-game”)
Whats more, there is nothing is male game that isn’t done in female game and when it comes to relationships and dating, gaming on normal for behavior for women and the more toxic manipulative and dramatic behavior is more likely to be found in females.
“The PUA community may call it negging, but they didn’t invent the practice.”
Indeed. Women did. It’s standard practice, as you can see form a lot of the repsonse of the women here.
Just looking over Hugo’s misleading piece here and it really is vile.
He links male game to violence and abuse, and then this…
“Wanting a guy to be well-groomed and equipped with a basic vocabulary for his own emotional terrain are not unreasonable desires. In most cases, the problem isn’t women expecting too much: it’s men offering too little”.
In other words, any man that wants to use male accumulated knowledge of attraction, is a scruffy emotional retard. See how little this misandrist, paternalist, white knight [redacted] thinks of most men, and how he places women as their betters.
Hugo, no doubt the more emotionally and mentally vulnerable, demographic of women (feminists) you play your beta male “all-men-are -scary -emotional -retards -that -don’t- wash- themselves-except -for- me- you- can- trust -me -please- give -me- validation” manipulative game with, that you have been playing for years now lap this up, but more intelligent people are going to call it what it is. Creepy and disingenuous.
Congratulations on making a career out of frightening vulnerable women and putting men down.
I have been “negged” and it did not make me at all interested in the “neggers”. The first time it happened I felt confused and a bit hurt, and quickly extricated myself from the conversation. Later I learned it is a technique, so now I just see it as another lame way of hitting on me. That’s the thing, once women encounter “negging” a couple times, it’s no longer an indicator of intriguing disinterest, it’s just another way of being hit on. Although if like most PUA’s, you are only trying to score quick casual sex with very young, very shallow and insecure women, maybe it will give you an edge because you will be gone by the time they figure out that you are a manipulative jerk.
Great article Hugo, nice top level analysis of the Pick-up artist movement and great deconstruction of the skills they employ.
You may enjoy the article my co-blogger wrote about the same topic “The Seduction Community is Guitar Hero for Dating” http://exilelifestyle.com/seduction-community-guitar-hero-dating/
I actually took your women’s study class at Pasadena City way back in 2005, you are an amazing professor!
Shannon
How is using “Urban dictionary” and discussing an entry level buzz word and misunderstanding it (possibly deliberately), while insulting men and pedestalising women a “top level analysis”.
Also, your avatar depicts a woman who is covered in manipulative female game fakery.
Can you elaborate a bit on what you see as female game “fakery”? I’m hoping that you too are not relying on a superficial take to claim “fakery”. Fakery is a very big word to throw about casually.
I’ve been “negged” many a times and I’ve similarly instigated preemptive strikes etc
I could be off base, though I get the sense that this discussion centers around initial, casual and short term trysts. The context is a pub, dance club, and other such flirt arenas.
I don’t appreciate the moral authenticity mandate that seems to lay in opposition, putting aside whether these tactics work on a subset of people performing the sexual dance, for it assumes that being authentic is the shedding of complex human layers, that in more common terms include: exaggerations, psychology, game playing, and other characteristics that make us truly human authentic. Gradations exist and if we can’t wrap our heads around them, we sink into a pot of sophomoric analysis.
Sexual dynamics are not in the subject / object sphere of understanding. I gather this is the main objection of the dissenters of this post.
Hi elissa
I find this critique of male game very hypocritical and one-eyed.
For example, the woman that is calling herself Shannon is covered in female game trapping designed to embellish, cover up, stimulate and deceive. I can go to amazon and find many best selling female game books that blatantly advocate using psychological abuse and behavior to “train/catch/keep/marry your man”.
Female game is widespread and commonly used, that these people critiquing it haven’t got the where-with-all or self awareness to realise it or do and are operating a blatent sexual double standard.
Im going to post a more about it at the bottom.
Anyway, another crazy day on TGMP
Hired feminist writes yet another poorly researched (Urbane Dictionary) misleading and male negative article, women worshiping article that makes false allegations of abuse, male readers (the minority) object, female feminist readers (the majority) support.
Wanting a guy to be well-groomed and equipped with a basic vocabulary for his own emotional terrain are not unreasonable desires. In most cases, the problem isn’t women expecting too much: it’s men offering too little.
Is there some actual evidence behind that or is this just another matter of putting women on a pedastal and making them out to be paragons of virture? I don’t think its a matter of men offering too little but rather a matter of men not knowing how to offer what they have. A lot of guys that are shy and lacking in confidence seem to have a lot of other things going for them and just need that last nudge to get things going.
That’s probably the best encapsulation I’ve seen of the issue yet. I think issues stem from this – women’s unrealistic ideas of what normal dating confidence is.
Most women downgrade men based on the confidence of their approach. So a man who’s smart, cool, funny and interesting, will not be seen as such if he approaches or flirts with the woman in a less than hollywood-level-confidence.
This is why most men can only get into relationships after having known women for months and months from sort of social circle. Most men don’t have the James Bond confidence of quickly and easily conveying their worth.
The big misconception women have is that first-impressions are true… especially when they use their reference point, of hollywod-movie-level-confidence. Most women literally deem a man “dumb” if he is less than charismatic.
What women refer to as “normal” is objectively “super-normal” that is exquisitely charismatic. One obvious example of that is how women rate most men’s approaches as being below-average, which is mathematically impossible :d
Wow, I think that you’re generalizing women a bit too much. If all women expected “Hollywood-level” charisma, surely there would be no couples/children at all?
I have lots of female friends and no one I know is expecting a guy to be Rico Suave. Just the opposite – Rico Suave is cheesy. Maybe it’s because I live in a large city, but very few of the couples I know knew each other for months before dating. Most people met at a bar or a party or through friends and got together that way. None of my friends’ boyfriends are overly charming or flashy – they’re just good guys.
“”"If all women expected “Hollywood-level” charisma, surely there would be no couples/children at all? “”"
- I was very careful in what I said.
- I said that women in an INITIAL(cold) approach expect hollywood-level-charisma. Which is why MOST guys can only get into relationships after having known a woman in a social circle.
Make sense? Re-read my comment and you’ll see.
“Most people met at a bar or a party or through friends and got together that way. None of my friends’ boyfriends are overly charming or flashy – they’re just good guys.”
You put meeting through friends and parties and bars/clubs in the same sentence – that shows just how ignorant women are about what it takes to meet women in the latter.
And yes, to actually so much as be allowed to say a “Hi, I’m bob” in a club requires 10x confidence in a bar/club then it does in a work-party or meeting through friends.,
“”"None of my friends’ boyfriends are overly charming or flashy – they’re just good guys.”"”
But that’s the thing. As a woman you’re not calibrated to what’s normal. What you refer to as “just good” as actually above average. Sure, I’m generalizing but I have observed and worked with hundreds of guys over the past decade in half a dozen countries. I actually know what’s required to simply introduce yourself to a woman without being brushed off on hi.
Average confidence, to approach an average woman in the supermarket/bar/club actually gets you rudely put down and brushed off. Women label basic normal average confidence “creepy” or “weird” – because even a hint of nervousness or anxiety is seen as a sin – when in truth its NORMAL – its not normal or average to talk to a COMPLETE stranger and from the first 30 seconds already be at ease with them – THAT IS NOT NORMAL – > that IS in fact Hollywood-level charisma.
I think sometimes there is a lot of confusion about what women mean by “confident.” I think it can mean different things for different women. Some women may want a really overbearing alpha male type, while others would be interested in a guy who is quieter and more introspective or even shy. I think what turns off a lot of women is just plain awkwardness. If the conversation feels uncomfortable, women will try to get out of it. If asked later why they liked guy A over guy B, they may say “confidence” — but that involves a lot of intangibles. Really it means to me is, “guy A was relaxed and interesting, and I had a good time talking to him, whereas guy B was so nervous, the conversation was strained and awkward.” This is not a gender thing; it’s how we all interact with each other every day. You meet people, you like some of them and you don’t like others based on how the interaction went. Maybe men wouldn’t need PUA training if they simply interacted with women in a normal way that THEY would find rewarding in an interaction with someone else (regardless of gender or level of romantic interest). Too many guys approach like women are exotic gazelles, or aliens from Mars. I was very shy in high school and college so I understand how difficult it is. But as a shy person, you have to learn that it is up to YOU to make the interaction easier for others. It is not others’ responsibility to make the interaction easier for you.
“”"I think what turns off a lot of women is just plain awkwardness”"”
Well that’s what we’re talking about. Its NOT normal to NOT be akward when talking to a stranger. For a woman to expect a completely smooth interaction with a complete stranger whom she just met 1.5 seconds IS in fact an unrealistic demand.
Women who don’t believe me, I say “Ok, walk up to the cutest guy in the bar today, and see how unkward you are” – NORMAL PEOPLE are akward when approaching a cute stranger – that’s NORMAL. -> to overcome this is to develop superior charisma.
“”"This is not a gender thing; it’s how we all interact with each other every day. “”"
As far as romantic approaching is concerned – yet it is a gender thing, because men are a lot more understanding. Both me and a lot of my attractive friends get approached by women all the time.
Most of the women’s approaches are also akward. But guess what? Do we brush them off, cut them off or deem them weird or creepy? Nope. And its not just us. Guys being approached by non-charismatic women are generally much much much kinder than women are.
“”"”But as a shy person, you have to learn that it is up to YOU to make the interaction easier for others. It is not others’ responsibility to make the interaction easier for you.”"”"
I only agree up to a point. Yes, as a shy person you have the obligation to make interaction with people easier… BUT not to the point where the other person makes it 10x more difficult coz you’re not charismatic.
If women only made it as difficult as the average male stranger, then that would make sense. But to say that women have 000000000000000% responsibility in being approachable or making it more comfortable or rewarding for men to approach is in fact a case of “expecting too much for men”.
It has to be a two way street. Its 2011 – women need to be equal – that means doing equal work in courting rituals. Women however expect the men to make sure the interaction flows perfectly – and if not, he’s labeled a creep.
Again, it is just tough to feel excited about someone who you are having an awkward, uncomfortable conversation with. Men may be more tolerant in this area because they are more interested in physical attraction. If a hot woman is extremely awkward, they won’t care because at least she’s interested and maybe they can get into her pants. However, imagine you are being hit on at a bar by a woman who is fat and ugly. You would be totally creeped out and probably want to get away from her as quickly as possible. You wouldn’t think, “well she’s fat and ugly but I’ll give her a chance because hey she might be nice.”. You’d be like, “Yuck! Get this fat chick away from me.” Women can be equally judgmental but they judge men based on personality. It’s like a job interview; if you don’t make a good first impression, it is hard to recover. I’m not saying it’s right but that’s how it is in MANY contexts, not just chatting up women in a bar. Furthermore, women are always thinking about making a good first impression with their looks. In fact many women focus on it excessively. Women don’t think, “hey I’ll just walk into a club with no makeup ratty sweats and a baggy turtleneck and, shoot, no one is paying attention to me, jerks!” Women know that it’s up to them to look their best. It’s up to men to act their best.
In an ideal world men wouldn’t care about a woman’s looks and women would be willing to spend time with guys who don’t make a good first impression. But in the real world, people are superficial. I think it’s often a matter of people having limited time and energy to get to know each other so they use short cuts. It’s sad but complaining won’t change it. If I’m 30 pounds overweight I can’t expect tons of guys to pursue me. I should lose weight or get liposuction or cosmetic surgery or I just have to learn to accept myself. It depends on what I want. Similarly, it is possible for a shy person to learn to appear relaxed and confident when meeting a stranger. If you can do it in a job interview or with co-workers at a new job, you can do it with members of the opposite sex.
I remember a pathetic male engineering professor who tried to get next to an English professor by telling her how stupid her ideas were. It didn’t work.
Hugo, I want your opinion…
I won’t argue and debate the ussual topic. I think we’re all wasting a lot of time arguing the ‘why” there is a problem instead of arguing the WHAT of the solution.
I’ve personally converted and de-brainwashed a lot more PUAs then feminists ever will. Simply because I knew many of them personally – and today I have them on a MUCH different track.
Here’s the solution I offer to the whole mess of the current problems… And what I personally practice and offer to other men, successfully. As an alternative to this PUACRAP.
============
My personal solution to this whole mess is for men to never EVER hit on women, ever initiate with women, ever assume a woman is interested or wants to be pursued.
You might think I’m extreme, but I really do think this is the best way to solve the whole issue. I think we need to go through a period where men pause and stop hitting on women and put themselves in the role of the pursued so they can see what its like from the other side.
I personally never ever ever so much as have the thought of a woman being or not being interested in me, or ever even communicate with a woman from that frame. I only ever talk to women in the exact same way I talk to everyone else in the room. I never ever flirt with women, I only ever “socialize”.
I make sure to communicate friendliness, approachability in every context and that I am completely liberal and non-judgemental. This is to allow for whoever is in that context and is interested in me, to know they can feel free to approach me and pursue me, should she be interested.
Women take my number, ask me out, and I let them do all the initiating. This is also what I share with and teach other men.
Your thoughts?
=============
Cosign. I think the way it really works is that the woman signals to you that she’s ready. I’ve never gone to bars or clubs for pickups, and wouldn’t. I’m good looking and have generally had good looking partners, but I think bars and clubs are all about surface.
Weirdly, I’ve generally slept with women I’ve known over a year. Always friends first. One of the best relationships I’ve ever had, I knew her for nine years first.
Every so often, I guess, when we were platonic, I’d send her a signal I desired her. So I wasn’t completely passive.
WOW, I CAME BACK AND SO MANY COMMENTS ARE DELETED!
Funny you should say that. This is not the fiorst time that has happened here.
http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2011/05/18/questioning-%e2%80%98sexual-slavery%e2%80%99-at-the-good-men-project-noh/
On one of Tom’s threads, they removed all the comments after some of the peanut gallery accused him of “misogyny”– crap of course.
One of the deficiencies of this site is the number of feminist “supervisors” who think this is boot camp for changing men. Men are what they are. They should be the best they can be, that taken into account. I like feminism, but I and most other men will never be or even think much like a woman.
All things being equal, it’s probably true that the vast majority of us would like our partners to have hot bods and empathy, and a lot of us would like them to have fat wallets as well. But that isn’t really the problem PUAs are trying to address.
The real problem is: Women rate the overwhelming majority of men as very below-average in looks as evidenced by this frequently-cited survey at OKCupid. The reverse is NOT true: men rate average-looking women as average-looking (at least among pre-menopausal women).
So it is NOT some kind of imaginary paranoid misconception that guys have that women see the majority of their potential suitors as ‘beneath’ them. It appears to be a very real phenomenon, and any advice which denies that reality has a credibility problem … particularly advice that claims, “In most cases, the problem isn’t women expecting too much: it’s men offering too little.”
That article also shows that 2/3 of men are pursuing the women who are in the top 1/3 attractiveness and ignoring a lot of cute women in the middle, whereas male attractiveness is somewhat less important to women.
“That article also shows that 2/3 of men are pursuing the women who are in the top 1/3 attractiveness”
Susan, I believe the data means that men invest 2/3 of their effort attempting to get the top 1/3 of women. They don’t actually reject the bottom 2/3 of women. Its number of attempts made, not number of men making attempts
Its like, you might invest 2x more effort trying to get into a prestigious university, but you’re not rejecting the non-prestigious one if you don’t make it into the prestigious one.
First, Susan, I think AlekNovy makes a valid point.
Moreover, it’s not at all clear how much less important male physical attractiveness is to women than female physical attractiveness is to men. As I noted when this point came up at FC, the notion that it’s less important to women …
I think that insulting anyone, particularly someone you don’t even know, is rude. Period. The fact that this can manipulate people who already have low self esteem makes it that much worse.
If these women are so stuck up, why even bother? Wouldn’t it be better to just go talk to someone else instead of wasting your time trying to devise little strategies on how to win them over? Besides, if someone is so intent on finding a good looking “alpha” male, one little insult probably isn’t going to help. I mean, does anyone think that “I don’t like your hair” is going to make a shallow person not shallow? It’s more likely that she wasn’t even shallow to begin with and would have got with the guy, anyway.
Well said Lindsay.
What you pointed out is one of the most TOXIC things about PUA-culture. I regularily get into fights with PUAs about this part. Its like a cult that instills completely irrational beliefs.
A PUA, being in the community for a while believes that its “better” if you had to “make” a woman want you. Its a common frame that is installed onto guys when they enter it.
Like a guy will for example meet the most beatiful, smartest, coolest, most supportive woman ever – but his PUA buddies will say “it’s not solid game”. If he asks them why – they will say “well she approached you, so it doesn’t count”.
And that’s like ASININE. One of the local PUAs once argued with me in the street that sex should feel better if you “earned” it by gaming the woman. He actually use that term :d
He was saying how my approach (letting women pursue me) sucks, because for sex and companionship to be enjoyable you must have “won” or “made” the girl want you – and I’m shaking my head in disbelief at the irrationality.
haha yeah, that’s crazy. If that’s how they feel then they will probably never have a healthy relationship. I feel that attraction is best when it’s mutual – not when it’s forced.